nisi mittantur Howe shall they preach except they bee sent as â—t is written in the tenth to the Romanes and sent by them which haue authoritie to sende Did not Saint Paul for that purpose leaue Titus in Creete Did hee not also giue Timothie charge to laye handes too quickely on no man To these that bee thus lawefullie ordeyned and called to haue cure and charge of soules yee are bounde to giue an eare by these yee must bee ruled in matters of Religion and as obedient children to their spirituall fathers And this biddeth Saint Hierome writing to Nepotian o True and necessarie as long as the pastour is such as Paul wilde Titus to ordeine but this helpeth yours little Esto subiectus pontifici tuo quasi animae parentem suspice Bee subiect to thy Bishop and reuerence him as thy soules father The same lesson teacheth Chrysostome in an Homylie De recipiendo Seueriano where hee beginneth thus Sicuti capiti corpus cohaerere necessarium est ita ecclesiam sacerdoti principi populum As it is of necessitie that the bodie cleaue to the heade so it is likewise of necessitie that the congregation cleaue to their Priest and spirituall ruler and the people to their Prince And within a fewe wordes after hee alleadgeth for the confirmation of this matter the Apostle writing thus to the Hebrewes in the thirteenth Chapter p This rule is not general without exception For Christ hath saide take heede of false Prophets c. Obedite praepositis vestris obtemperate eis quia ipsi peruigilant pro vobis quasi pro animabus vestris rationem reddituri Obey them that haue the ouersight of you and doe as they woulde haue you for they watch for your sakes as they which shall giue accomptes for your soules This obedience doeth our Sauiour require of all men saying Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee This obedience to Christes Church hath continued thoroughout all Christendome time out of minde And if the authoritie of the learned and holie fathers ought to beare sway and preuaile as of right it ought to doe indeede Arrogantium enim hominum est maiorum suorum authoritatem aspernari se illis ingenio vel sapientia anteponere For it is the manner and property of proud arrogant persons to contemne the authority of their elders to prefer themselues before theÌ„ in wit or learning If the consent of all christian Regions should be regarded probâ—bilia saieth Aristotle in the first Chapter of the first booke of his Topickes quae videntur omnibus vel plurimis Those things are probable which all men or at the least the most part doe iudge to be so If the long continuance of time must be of importance In his enim as witnesseth S. Hilarie vpon the hundred and eighteene psalme tanquà m in coelo verbum dei permanet in quibus hoc verbum non offenditur In them doth the word of God abide among whom that worde is not offended a This is but a vaine brag that you haue these three as shall appeare I hope sufficieÌ„tly in the answer to Albines treatise For you haue not one of them in such sort as that thereupon you may conclude as you doe If these three I saie The authority of the learned Fathers The common consent of Christian Regions The long continuance of time may be a sufficient testimonie for the verity we haue the true Gospell the true sence of it b These are but shamelesse beggings of the things in question and onely your bare and therefore vaine words for none of them you shal euer proue true Our Religion is the very Christian Religion The order of Ceremonies that the Catholike Church doth vse is the right order Our fasting and praying is according to the Scriptures Our Church is the true and lawfull spouse of Christ from the which as many as seperate them selues they are no sheepe of Christes folde they are reprobate persons they are the children of Belial they are impes of hell c What then is the president of our next last fathers yea though for some hundred or more yeares such as we may not vary from The vanity of this argument see cap. 38. of my answere You knowe what order your fathers kept howe they liued and howe they beleeued You are not ignorant how you haue beene brought vp instructed and trâ—â—ned in the lawes of Christ Whosoeuer goeth about to infringe or breake any part of that d You must proue the order godly and laudable or else your assertion is false godly order of that auncient custome and laudable vsage he is an hereticke an enemy to God a murtherer to mans soule a disturber of the common wealth a subuerter of all honest discipline and therefore most vnworthy to liue among men I e This complaint hath most iust apparant ground especially amongst men of your owne faction though it cannot be denied but that euery where there is so lamentable cause thereof but yet this preiudiceth our religion which condemnes all imoiety no more then you would haue it to doe yours haue heard read and seene many things yet can I not reade beare or see any world more contaminate and prone to al kinde of vices then this our age is And howbeit afore our daies there haue beene in all times and ages men and women very vitious and monstrous in their liuing yet then vertue was vertue and vice was vice But now in our corrupt time wee haue lost the true names and vse of all things and vertue with vs is taken for vice and contrarily vice is counted for vertue They that bee studious of modesty obseruers of temperancie and louers of sobrietie they be now a daies called Pinch-pennies and such that hunger droppeth out of their noses f This is false amongst vs if by catholique you vnderstande as you should sounde and true religion If any be vertuous followers of the Catholike which is the true Religion they be called Pharisies papists The discreete man he is called an hypocrite and the small talker a foole and an ignorant person On the other side they that leade their liues in all kinde of riote they be called handsome men men of the right making and such as can tel how to keepe honest mens companie Againe the statelier that one goeth the â—igher that he looketh and the stouter and malapertlier that he speaketh be more is he praised among the worldlings for a wise man who will not â—uffer himselfe to be ouertroden and made a laughing stocke to euery rasâ—all With such vaine glorious praises be such proude Thrasoes extolled â—nd magnified of the more part and no small number are giuen to flatâ—erie and enhausing of Clawbackes that neuer could that saying of Teâ—ence be better verified then it is now Obse quium amicos veritas oâ—odium parit To holde vp mens yea and their naye in holding with
word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles Euāgelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that belōg to truth so that euery one that will may frō thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church whē any questiō should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstādeth that soūd form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which thē would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore euē then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundamētum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditiō was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwritē traditiōs of the Romish church which are not ōly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereūto But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a mā to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditiōs whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditiō though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacramētall chāge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chāged though the same father in a thousād other places shew that his iudgemēt is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish trāsubstantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their cōtrouersies But at this time thou must pardō this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditiōs are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller groūd of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditiōs which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates cōmandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commādemēts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writtē as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemēt ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the cōmon consēt of all Christiā regions prescriptiō of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupō by and by as though there were no
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
which is but a mā often times an ignorant wicked man to vnderstand the scriptures and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God nor any true desire after knowledge but rather after ignorāce because that is the best foūdation of your Religiō And therefore as the fashiō is you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne happily iudge them to be as hard to all others as to your selues and thereupon by the hardnes thereof discourage them from reading them as much as you cā I am sure whatsoeuer you or any of your fellowes prate hereof that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers as well as to the great learned men of this world For therein and thereby I know that God is no accepter of persons and therefore so far of is it that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto thē or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes should driue them from the reading and studying of thē that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof For we see in our earthly fathers will the harder the tearines and phrases be wherein he hath giuen vs any thing or willeth vs to doe any thing nature reason hath taught vs not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines cost but a great deale more to seeke to vnderstand the same how much more ought it to be so in this case And I am perswaded that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade study them with hope to vnderstand them that the other might admonish him to be no negligent but a careful wise peruser of them so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them Which it should seeme both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours Gregory in his epist to Leander had obserued in noting that God had so ordred the scriptures as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate for the weakling milke and that there both the Elephāt might swimme and the lambe safely wade These things notwithstāding whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose I perceiue that you in this your lōg discourse of the hereticks abusing and wresting the scriptures cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose so the thereby you might gaine thus much as by such experiments to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue study of the scriptures For I know they greatly comber you stād in your way and therefore by your wils you cared not if the people neuer hearde of them wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe great Champions against them as it is well knowen too too often For first for their authority though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church For otherwise we could not beleeue them but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them adding further that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion but rather to be subiect thereunto And Ecchius another great doctour of yours of the same time in his Enchiridion writing of the authority of the church saieth that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority but through the authority of the Church and therefore he boldly affirmeth that to say that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church is hereticall and the contrary is Catholicke And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge that one of your crue meaning thereby one Herman had not beene ashamed to say that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables but for the testimony of the church Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours writing against the saied Brentius in his third booke being of the authority of the scripture defends it as well inough spoken for saieth he vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall it could haue had small authority with vs. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book seuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God but by the testimony of the Church insomuch that she must determine saieth he what bookes be Canonicall and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into or out of the Canon Of the same iudgemēt is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther And this position so liked Ecchius that in the place before cited he writes of the margent Achilles against this position to insinuate that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours And yet when all comes to all your meaning all this while is by the Church to vnderstand onely the Pope forasmuch as none but hee hath the tongue of the Church in weelding For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures which is also Canus fift proposition in effect in the Chapter before named This being your meaning Leo the tenth being one of your Popes what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture if it be true that is writen of him that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall cōtemptuously saied speaking of the Gospell that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them And as for the vncertainty of the sēce insufficiēcy of thē who knoweth not what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow in amplifying the hardnes of them in either preferring therefore or equalling the vnwritē word with you call the liuely practise of the church before thē both for plainnes sufficiency Whē you are in this vaine both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified and Piggius also by your Andradius Orthodox Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the scriptures to a nose of waxe he to a leaden lesbian rule and to their further
gibing you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that â—heir place is knowen though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists at the last they doe not know which side indeede is the truest being both false therefore I thinke it were good that a sequestration were made that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement as concerning which party hath most right And in the meane while I beseech god to open so the eies of the people that they may see both your errours and their owne and that through the abundance of their sinnes he permit theÌ„ not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels The XXVIII Chapter ONce againe you obiect vnto vs the contentioÌ„ betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists which you say is cause sufficient not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs though otherwise you were willing to forsake your ReligioÌ„ which wrongfully you call Catholique but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides that they are led one while on the one side anone againe on the other so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes though otherwise as you say we giue absolute sentence that the Catholique church hath erred eueÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles times to this present in praying to God for the soules in purgatory you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules vntill it were determined with of these belong to God and which to the deuill And then you conclude this Chapter with a solemne praier to God to open the peoples eies to see both our errours their own sinnes least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie telling vs of great battels railing processes and horrible excommunications that haue passed about this matter of the sacrameÌ„t on both sides and yet there in another booke which you haue made you say of the sacrament you signifie vnto vs that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter Against this such like out-cries of these men about this matter gentle Reader thou art to arme and streÌ„gthen thy selfe with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church and true members thereof to haue as great hoat contentions as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficieÌ„t I could now further shew you that not only there is as great a coÌ„trouersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues the nature of their Religion considered as any they can charge vs with namely this whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority but also I might easily againe say and say truely as they themselues know well enough that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus Lucifer and Eusebius the Meletians and Eustathians all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians as that with great trouble to the Church they shunned one anothers communion and that for verie many yeares togither as you may reade in Epiphanius libro 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. c. in Socrates libro 2. cap. 33. 34. and in Zozomen libro 2. cap. 17. 18. And wee reade histor tripart libro 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both that departing one from the other the one spitefully saied to the other thou shalt neuer die Bishop and the other saied to him as vncharitably neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue both which their imprecations or predictions as the storie shewes came euen so to passe For Chrysostome died banished and the other before he got home to Cyprus If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro 5. cap. 23. 25. and Euseb lib. 7. cap. 3. 4. And who is so ignorant that the Church stories and ancient writers ministers vnto vs but too too great store in all ages of controuersies and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians of great name and fame in their times And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs as though it were sufficient cause of all or of any of these thinges which you inferre thereupon against vs. Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere thereupon to haue gathered either all or any of these thinges Nay it is euident that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth growen Neuters or Atheists that they had beene without excuse before God For seeing to know the trueth and to be settled in it is a thing so necessary as it is the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out the more thereby they that are the Lordes and haue anie grace are prouoked to labour and search to finde it and to settle themselues the stronglier in it And therefore seeing such offences haue beene and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church and triall of Gods children you and such as you that by such discourses as this leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed or now to bee caried this way now that way as long as the contention lasteth seeme to be disposed to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes If you minded to haue them settled in Religion and preserued from neutralitie the mother of Atheisme it were your partes to ioyne with vs especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion that be now a daies in the world to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture and thereby to trie all spirits and their opinions whither they be of God or no yea euen so much the more for these varieties sake that so they might finde the trueth and be settled in it For they may not fainte or giue ouer thus doing for this for necessary it is that
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
ascended vp into heauen and sitteth on the right hande of his father Wherevnto I aunswere that we must heare his voice sounding by the mouth of his e True but there by straight is not ment yours which along time hath beene an impudent harlot Church which is the very true spouse of Iesus Christ QuaÌ„ sanctificauit mundans eam lauacro aquae in verbo vitae whom hee hath sanctified and purified with the bath of water in the worde of life vt exhiberet ipse sibi gloriosam ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugam to make it a glorious Church to himselfe without spot or wrinkle Ad Ephesios 5. f Thus you take for granted that your synagogue is this church of of Christ and that we haue departed from the church of Christ both which are most false If we hear the church we hear Christ for as the holy Bishop Martyr Irenaeus writeth in the forty Chapter of his thirde booke Vbi ecclesia ibi spiritus vbi spiritus dei illic ecclesia omnis gratia spiritus autem veritas where the Church is there is the spirit of God where the spirit of God is there is the Church al grace the spirit is truth Wherefore as the same godly father writeth in the forty and three Chapter of his fourth booke we be bounde to be obedient to the Prelates of the Church his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis to them that haue their succession from the Apostles Reliquos verò saieth hee qui absistunt a g This principall succession is succession in truth which you are gone from long agoe principali successione quocunue loco colliguntur suspectos habere quasi haereticos oportet As for all other that goe away from the g Which is in truth that which your synagogue long ago hath done principall succession wee ought to suspect them as heretickes These are Irenaeus wordes in the place nowe alleadged And Christ saieth himselfe Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee Wherefore if wee will heare Christ as his father hath commaunded vs Ipsum audite Heare him Matth. 17. then must wee heare the Church h These things are true of the true and pure church of Christ listening to and following the voice of her husband and not otherwise and therefore not of your synagogue The Church is our most holy Mother whom we ought to haue in great reuerence and to commit our selues wholly vnto her to heare her and like obedient children to doe what she biddeth vs. What the Church holdeth in matters of religion that must we holde what the Church prescribeth it is our duetie to followe what the Church forbiddeth that are we bound vnder paine of damnation to auoyde in any wise a Therefore is it that we dare not beleeue your Romish spirit because we trying it by the scriptures finde it contrary to the spirit that was author of them S. Iohn in the fourth Chapter of his first Epistle biddeth vs beware that wee beleeue not euery spirite but to trye the spirites whether they be of God or not Then how can they be of God which goe from the Church S. Augustine in the exposition of this Epistle of S. Iohn tractatu primo writeth thus b This you haue done therefore by his rule howe can you be in Christ Qui ecclesiam relinquit quomodo est in Christo qui in membris Christi non est Quomodo est in Christo qui in corpore Christi non est Hee that leaueth the Church hovv is hee in Christ that is not in the members of Christ how is he in Christ that is not in the body of Christ By the which S. Augustine affirmeth that the Church which is the spouse of Christ is also the misticall body of Christ Christ is the heade of the Church As many therefore as be Christ his sheepe they heare their shepheards voice in the Church They wil not heare the voice of strangers c You should haue exemplified in your owne doctors and theÌ„ had you said well as of Luther Oecolampadius Zuinglius Caluin and like heretikes which for all their gay wordes and crying still Christ and the Ghospel may haue euery one of theÌ„ these verses of Persius in his fift Satyre worthily spoken to him Pelliculam veterem retines fronte politus AstutaÌ„ vapido seruas sub pectore vulpem Thou keepest still thine olde hyde vppon thee and bearing a faire face thou wrappest a wyly foxe vnder thy vaporous brest d euen your popes and doctors for these many yeares Act. 20. These bee they of whome Saint Peter speaketh in the seconde Chapter of his seconde Epistle Magistri mendaces qui introducunt sectas perditionis Lying masters bringing in sectes of perdition and denying the God that bought them Howebeit since it is so as Paul sayeth There wil be alwaies rauening wolues non parcentes gregi not sparing the flocke And amoÌ„g our owne selues wil men arise speaking peruerse things And such is our fraile nature that as the wittie Horace sayeth e And therefore the Romish struÌ„pet holdes out her poyson in a golden Cup. Reu. 17. Decipimur specie recti We be soone deceiued vnder the colour of truth It behoueth vs to followâ— the counsel of our head principal master Iesus Christ which teacheth vs an excellent document of heauenly philosophy saying f And therefore we had neede to take heede of you Attendite vobis à falsis Prophetis take ye heede to your selues beware of false Prophets which come vnto you in vestimentis ouium in sheepes cloathing but inwardlie they are Lupi rapaces Rauening wolues We must I saie beware that we be not deluded and vnder colour of Euangelical varitie bee made to receaue pernitious and damnable heresies as alas the more pittie hath miserably chaunced to our noble Realme of g This is true of EnglaÌ„d in respect of Qu. Maries daies and so theÌ„ truly we might did say vnto you as you here now falsly say vnto vs. Englande vnder colour of bringing vs to truth leading vs await from the truth to the vtter decay of all godlines setting vp of counterâ—aite religion a Euen this is the state of your Church in deed The weede hath nowe overgrowen the corne euill hurtâ—ull and soulequelling weedes of heresie haue ouergrowen oppressed pulâ—d downe to the grounde and vtterly choked the good corne of christian â—eligion and all ecclesiasticall constitutions b Thus we say that iustly to our people in respect of you Al you therefore that haue â—een seduced and taken weeds for wholsome flowers beware least with the â—ench of such rotten weedes yee infect your soule to euerlasting damnatiâ—n The infallible truth is dayly opened vnto you c It doth not at all appeare by the discourse that there is any falshood at all in our Religion The falshoode is mightily
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
eare-shrist pardons but by their faithful preaching of the will of God sacraments ministring and vsing of the other censures in due time and place They haue a ministry of testification and declaration by the rule and light of the scriptures thorow the shining of Gods spirit in their hearts to assure them that rightly vnderstand them and beleeue them of that assuredly which God only doeth properly absolutely and principally But you seeme in thus alleadging of these places first so thinke that the power and authority the Christ here gaue his Apostles to binde and loose c. inuesteth them streight with power and authority to binde euery man to make vnto them your auricular confession whereas we neither read that any did so vnto them nor that they for all this euer exacted any such thing at any mans hands that they dealt withall and secondly you seeme to take the power giuen them and from thē deriued to other ministers here to be such that they properly and absolutely should haue power to pardon sinne c. which is absurd and blasphemous for you once but to imagine For so can none forgiue sinnes but God onely How can you say or thinke that a Priest properly or absolutely can absolue one of sinne seeing he may not so much as pronounce or declare a sinner to be pardoned of God vnles he be contrite penitent and faithfull indeede Now God onely and the party are priuy to this whither these thinges be sound and right in the heart or no for an hypocrite can make a shew to deceaue man withall in these you know vnles therfore we will thinke that we haue power to absolue him whom God yet condemneth our pronouncing of pardon or absolution to those that seeme such vnto vs must be but conditionall if they be such in deede as they make shew for and therefore neither is nor can it be proper or absolute Ambrose libro 3. de Spiritu Sancto ca. 19. by that of Iohn proues the godhead of the holy ghost for that he can and doeth forgiue sinnes which were no good argument if by that place Christ meant to giue ministers power and authority properly and absolutely to doe it vnles it be lawful to think that they are very Gods But marke I pray you your kinde of reasoning from these places Christ gaue to his Apostles power and authority giuing them the holy Ghost to bind and to forgiue sins ergo auricular confession before the sacrament thereby was enioynes this is your argument or else you saie nothing in all this for your selues against vs. For we deny not but most willingly confesse that by these places it is certaine that Christ gaue vnto his true ministers to whom he gaue the holy Ghost power and authority as ministers to doe this But what is this to authorize your priestes which are no ministers of his ordinance and to whom hee hath not giuen that spirit to doe this Or what is this if they had authority to doe it either to that which they take vpon them or to enforce a necessity of such auriculer confession as you practise and pleade for Herein it is with you as it is in other points of your religion you are deceaued and after seeke to abuse and deceaue others with the ambiguity and diuersity of acceptions of confession For that is a common tricke with you when you finde either in scripture or father that there is but the word mentioned that by any stretching maie reach to your meaning to alleadge that streight as flat full and pregnant for your purpose when as indeede if the circūstāces of the place he looked into it is as far from countenācing your opinion as may be So in this case you finding in scripture some mention of confessiō of sinnes and sundry examples of the same and likewise in the fathers you finding that they exhort and perswade men to confesse their sinnes you by and by imagined that your auricular confession must needes be that that they speake of or at least your learning not suffering you so to imagin you contrary to your owne knowledge and conscience as it seemeth could be contented to doe what you could to make your Reader so to thinke Wherefore to arme him hereafter against your subtlety or the cunning of any of your fellowes in this point and so to giue him a triacle to preserue him from the danger of your popish poison in this case let him know and vnderstand that there haue beene and be many kinds of confessing of sinnes spoken of both in scriptures and fathers and yet you neuer the nearer for yours For Augustine de verbis Euangelii hom 8. very pretily according to his maner saieth that confession is tither laudis or fraudis that is of praise or of fraude by the former vnderstanding that kinde of confession whereby we thankfullie acknowledging what God hath beene or is vnto vs we burst forth into lauding and praysing his holy name therefore whereunto the faithfull seruants of God are oftentimes exhorted in the scriptures as for example Psalme 33. in these words confesse vnto the Lord in harpe and in a psaltery of ten strings sing vnto him And Dan. 3. in these confesse vnto the Lord that he is good and that his mercy is for euer which kinde of confession in our Churches we alwaies publickly vse both before and in the receiuing of the Sacrament which wee teach to be a Sacrament euen to prouoke vs so to doe for our free and full saluation purchased for vs by the death of Christ And the other is the generall to all kyndes and sortes of confession of sinnes which he tearmeth frawde because by all sinne God or man or both are wronged of that which is due vnto them Otherwise some distinguish confession into confession of fayth and confession of maners of the first whereof sayeth Christ Matthew the tenth hee that confesseth mee before men I will confesse him before my father which is in heauen and of this Saint Paul speaketh saying with the heart man beleeueth to righteousnesse but with the mouth confession is made to saluation and this is farre more playnely in vse with vs also then with you For in all our publicke assemblies ordinarily as it is wel knowen according to the three auncient Creedes in english that all present may vnderstande vs wee make confession of our faith And as for the later which is confession of our maners there is no kinde of so confessing taught and commended vnto vs either in the olde Testament or new either to God or man priuate or publicke but wee vse it allowe it and exhort one an other vnto it in farre better sort and maner then you doe Yea to go one step further with you there is no kynde of so confessing our faultes by the consent and vniforme practise of the auncient fathers approued vnto vs but therein also both before the receite of the Sacrament and at other times as
to offer him againe to his father If by penance he vnderstand repentance we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof For we most earnestly call for both but if by penance be vnderstood either voluntary or enioyned penance as they commonly take it ioyned with an opinion thereby either to satisfie for sinnes past or to merit at Gods hand because we know that such penance and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God because thereby Christ is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect sauiour in by himselfe alone that is due vnto him then we graunt as we haue iust cause we preach against it Otherwise fasting straightnes of life watching and lawfull vowes to make vs more ready feruent in holy prayer we commend and vrge Indeed praying to Saints because we haue neither example coÌ„mandement nor promise in Gods book to encourage vs thereunto but all to the contrary we condemne as grosse idolatry and likewise prayer for soules departed as they vse it to relieue foules in purgatory for the same reasons and sundry other we preach against But what we teach of these two points and what not and what reasons we haue for our so doing and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answere to Albine where I haue at large shewed these things And thus much therfore for this 3 signe The next is to bring a schisme into the Church coÌ„trary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor 1. and that such a schisme as wherby not onely one member shall be seperated from an other but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ Iesus which we to haue done in seperating our selues from their Church not they hee assumeth and so concludeth when the learned protestant can shew the coÌ„trary that he wil recant and not before Still thus thou maiest see good reader that this man is no changling For vnles that be graÌ„ted him which is the maine point betwixt vs that their Church is the true Church of Christ their doctrine the sound catholicke faith and religion he hath no ground or foundation for any thing he saieth For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine that euery one straight is authour of such a schisme as he here speaketh of that by doctrine draweth others from euery society or company inuesting themselues with the name of the Church and bragging that they haue the trueth For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer coÌ„mâ—â—tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes that then I am sure bragged as confidently of both these as this man and his fellowes doe now Or what would he say to those ancieÌ„t catholicks after Liberius time that when Arrianisme had in great part ouer run the world and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged theÌ„selues to be the onely 〈◊〉 catholicks disgracing theÌ„ that were so indeed with the name of Omousians that yet though they had got both bishops and emperours so many and so fast of their opinion that they had in ten seuerall councels goe sentence of their side ceased not labouring and traueling vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them and to ioine with the poore persecuted contempt the number that then yet persecuted in the trueth I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this count either Christ and his Apostles or these ancient catholicks antichristian heretickes or schismatiques And our drawing of meÌ„ by our doctrine now in these later daies from them is nothing else in trueth but an imitating as nigh as we can these renoumed and vndoubted good presidents examples that so the kingdome of Antichrist according to Saint Pauls prophesie might fal into consumption 2. Thessalonians 2 and that great Babylon might yet at leÌ„gth as it was reuealed vnto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14. fall and come downe For not onely we saw that the Church of Rome had made a schisme but such an apostasie euen in the fundamentall points of Christian religion from Christ and his Church that there was no remedy but that we must breake of from her as we did or else we could neuer haue communioÌ„ indeed in Christ with his true Church Though therefore we know and at the first knew that peace vnity and concord were pretious things and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for yet knowing withall as we doe did that it is vnity in verity and not in errour impiety with Christ not with Antichrist that is so much to be set by blame vs not for chusing rather according to these good exaÌ„ples to haue war with men then with God discord with Antichrist and al hes bread then with Christ and his members We grauÌ„t them therfore that to bring into the Church such a schisme as shal make diuision not onely amoÌ„gst Christs meÌ„bers but also of the body from the head is indeed an vndoubted signe of antichristian heretickes but wheras he taketh this for grauÌ„ted that this we haue done in departing froÌ„ theÌ„ as we haue that we deny For we teach men to hold hold our selues that faith religion as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament that alwaies the true Church of Christ hath held and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongst themselues is vnity and also knitteth theÌ„ and their head Christ so fast together as that no popish or antichristian tiranny shall euer be able to seuer them And howesoeuer this proude challengeâ— thought wtâ—â— impossible thing for the learned protestant to proue that they haue brought into the Church such a schisme as hee speaketh of I the vnlearnedst often thousande doubt not that I am very well able to doe it For this is most certaine and cleare Iesus Christ the Sauiour of the worlde indeede is at this point beeing euery waie so able and willing as he did in his owne person and by himselfe alone to go through with the office of a most perfect Sauiour of mankinde that either so hee must bee beleeued in and trusted vnto for that matter or else hee taketh himselfe antichristianlie robbed of that 〈◊〉 and glory that is due vnto him and therefore wil be no part of a sauiour at all to such That this is most true appeareth because it is writed that God is so iealouse of his owne honour and glory that hee wil not abide that any should therein bee pertaker with him or rob him of any ioâ—t therof Esay 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared Matthew the twenty two that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation Actes 4. that hee is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reu. 1. that he is the authour finisher of our faith Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for
remedy but that we must needs grant all this to be true he taketh occasion to triumph and to frame a bitter inuectiue against our Religion and liues so concluding his wordy preface with an exhortation to his Reader to forsake vs our Religiō to ioine againe with thē in theirs All which because it is nothing but the vaine malitious wordes of a foolish aduersary without proofe or shadowe of proofe which therefore I am sure the wise Reader will make no reckoning of I might very well let passe with this onely answere that whatsoeuer he hath here said braggingly either in the commendation of his Religion Church or to the disgrace of ours is vtterly false and that I haue plentifully proued it so to be in sundry places of this my answere Howbeit seing this is not only his brag but the brag also a nūber of times of Iohn de Albine in the booke following indeed is in effect the only thing by taking whereof granted most subtily they all their fellowes seeke to beguile their simple readers it shal not be amisse because here first we meete with it least otherwise the Reader should be too ready to suffer his hart to be sorestald with this false principle to the preiudice of the truth somewhat to say to make both the vanity falshood hereof to appeare to euery one First therefore it is worthy the marking that the mā though as hee plainly sheweth hee had here a full purpose at least in wordes to giue as great countenaunce as he could to his cause that yet he seekes to giue it credit but by the testimonie of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time in the meane time omitting that which is to be preferd before all these namely the testimony of the vndoubted word of God reuealed set downe in the scriptures wherein he hath dealt but as the nature of his cause requires which hath no countenance from thence and as the fashion of other of his companiōs in this case is For hereupō it is that there is nothing more cōmon in their discourses then to labour by all meanes they can the disgrace of the written word of god and to establish the credite of a word vnwritten which they count to be the traditions or ordinary practise of the Church of Rome To this ende they bestowe so much paines as they doe at least to make shewe of proofe that the scriptures are so darke and obscure so insufficiēt for the direction of the Church in all matters and of so vveake authority of themselues without the authority and testimonie of the Church to countenance them that without the foresaid vnwritten word no man could either fully or certainly be setled and established in the truth So that herein this is their drift that they indeed being without all sounde warrant out of the canonicall scriptures for those thinges which wee count erroneous in thē they yet may make their followers beleeue that they haue as good ground as need be for them in that they can proue thē by the tradition of the Church which they call the word of god vnwritten and which they hold to be not onely aequal vnto the other that is written but also far more full and certaine for the determining the trueth of all controuersies And therefore Soto contra Brentium Canisius cap. 5. of his Catechisme and Lindan lib. 5. cap. 10. of his panoplie are not ashamed to confesse reckening almost all the pointes in controuersie betwixt them and vs that they haue their ground and warrant from tradition not written in the scriptures And hereupon it is that there is nothing more common with any of them then when wee presse them with this that the opinions for the which we striue with them haue no warrāt in the scripture yea that the scriptures rightly vnderstoode are flatte against them therein to flye to tradition which is the cause that this fellowe him selfe was so busie before to abuse Irenaeus for the countenance of that onely foundation of their Religion For this cause we may doe say of them that iustly by their owne confessiō as Tertullian saide of the hereticks in his time they cannot stand if they be driuen once to determine al their controuersies by the scriptures de Resurrectione Carnis cap. 3. Now as for vs Christian reader for all this lewde bragge of his we appeale to these scriptures of god and onely wee allowe of them as of a most perfect touchstone whereby to trye in all matters of Religion the pure golde from the counterfait crauing no further liking nor allowance in any thing then by them wee are able soundly to proue and confirme that which we say and teach And the ancient holy fathers and so the Christian regions in al ancient prescription of time which are the things that he here brags of as it appeares in all sound monuments of antiquity euer since these scriptures were written for the determining of controuersies in their times haue alwaies taken this course to cōfute confound all aduersaries to the truth As for their owne authority or the authority of any other before them no further credit they craue then as they are foūd to agree with these scriptures otherwise the more that haue couseted the lōger they held the worse This I haue made manifest by plētifull testimony of the ancient fathers thēselues cap. 3.5.23 And therfore whiles he sends vs thus to the fathers Christian regions consent prescription of time he sēds vs but about the bush for when we come to thē they will send vs backe againe to the scriptures But whiles they take this course in seeking rather countenance for their cause any where else then at or by the canonicall scriptures in the iust iudgement of god they plainly bewray themselues to euery simple mā to haue but a bad cause that they so shun the light and refuse the most certaine most indifferent triall of it which questionles is by these scriptures whose neither authority nor indifferecy without blasphemy may once be called in question Indeed I read that whē they were pressed with the authority of these scriptures the Marcionites pretēded for the defence of their heresy their paraclet or cōforters visiōs instructiōs that likewise the Mōtanists did fly to their prophecy the Valētinians to their dreams of their Aeons the Manichees to their fundamētal Epistle the Iewes to their Talmud the Turks to their Alcaron belike lest these should be foūd vnlike these their predecessors they will thus fly from the vndoubted authority of god speaking in the scriptures to the vncertaine and variable authority of man Yet if this were true that he saith that they haue the auncient holy fathers the common consent of all Christian regions pre scriptiō of time of their side it were sōewhat some likelihood it were that things were with thē as he saith I must needs cōfesse
least after this that Priests had wiues begat childrē as other men And none of any learning are ignorant that al these sturs about this matter notwitstanding Christiā Bishops ministers in al other quarters of the world vnder the other Patriarches frō the beginning vnto this day haue bene are maried beget childrē also after they are entred into the ministry This also is as wel knowen of the learned that not onely particular learned men holy fathers as I noted before others but also sūdry coūcels where multitudes of such fathers haue met haue writen decreed to withstād contrary the going forward of this Antichristiā ordināce Yea they thēselues are not ignorāt hereof as it appears by sundry things set downe both in their text and glosse dist 81.84 elswhere in their Canon law For in the 28. distinctiō is noted a decree of the councell of Gangra which was about 300. yeares after Christ whereby he is by the authority of that councell anathematized that shall for his mariage put difference betwixt a maried ministers ministry and another and therefore abstaine from communicating with him and there also is cited a canon fathered of the Apostles whereby he is accursed that puts away his wife for Religion sake And in the sixth generall councell held at Constantinople these thinges are remembred with other and therefore there it was decreed Tom. Conc. 2. cap. 13. that he shall be deposed that after that should go about to debar Priests or deacons either of mariage or of the vse of their wiues yea after ordination and there also further it was enacted that if they themselues being ordred should vnder pretence of piety put away their wiues that they shall therefore be excommunicate and yet this was 680. yeares after Christ Moreouer Hierom speaking of his time saith that then plurum sacerdotes habebant matrimonia that is most Priestes were maried aduersus Iouinianum libro 1. Tertullian himselfe was a maried man as it appeareth by his writing to his wife To holde that ministers may not mary Ignatius ad Philadelphenses saith comes of the deuill And Dionysius Corinthiacus writing to the Gnosians persuades their Bishop Pinitus not to impose an vnnecessary too heauy a burden of single life or chastity vpon the brethren as we reade in Euseb lib. 4. cap. 22. Lastly S. Bernard though he liued about the yeare 1120. which was a very corrupt time for this matter yet euen he in his sixty sixth sermon vppon the Canticles thus far concerning this point hath plainely written Take from the church honourable matrimonie the bed vndefiled saith he and thou fillest it with concubine keepers with incestuous persons with such as haue vncleane issues of seede flowing from them with wantons with Sodomites and all kind of vncleane persons But when the bright euidence of these allegations seeme to make them somewhat to bold downe their heads yet I know they haue this shift for their last refuge that they deny not but that such as haue been maried or at that presēt haue wiues may enter into the ministry but thē they must be such as voluntary will vow and performe a single life and so thence forth abstaine insomuch that they are so in loue with this shift that they say write as is to be seen in the Rhemish notes vpō the new testamēt that Pauls canons touching the being of such the husbāds of one wife are so to be vnderstood not so as that thē or after once he is minister he may continue the office of a husband towardes his wife and confidently they dare and doe brag that we neuer read of any other that maried or got children after they entred once into holy orders Wherin first the practise of the Greeke Church all other Churches but these in these parts of the world directly crosses them Againe let Pauls words in deliuering of his canons cōcerning the qualities that ministers ought to haue bee well considered and any man shall see that it is absurd so to vnderstād him that he requires that they should be so qualified only de praeterito for the time past not rather especially for the time present and to come Seeing they are so cōfident in this that none maried euer or begot children after they were ministers let them tell mee of whom Peter had his daughter Petronella of whō their owne Croniclcs speake so much had he her not of a lawful wife And if it be true that we read that in the persecutiō vnder Domitian she was of such florishing yeares that then Flaccus a noble Roman county would haue had her to wife the time betwixt that and Peters entring vpon his Apostleship being at the least fifty fiue yeares after Christ by all likelihoode shee was got after hee was an Apostle And well might it bee for it being euident that Christ had taught them that vnlesse it were for fornication no man should forsake his wife Math. 19. and therefore that Paul hath noted that the brethren of the Lord and Cephas did cary vp and downe in the execution of their Apostleshippes their wiues being also conuerted aswell as themselues and therefore sisters 1. Cor. 7. taking maintenance for themselues then as they went that sometime in that perigrinatiō of theirs in the discharge of their office this Petronella was borne For it being euidēt by the Gospell of Math. 8. that Peter had a wife and by their owne stories that shee was a liue a little before his death at Rome with him that he counted not his Apostleship fornicatiō that neither he would leaue his wiues cōpany take other women with him nor that she came to Rome rather in the cōpany of other men thē of him her owne husband too too grosse and absurd is it with them to thinke that he the rest of the Apostles that had wiues forsooke their wiues quite and went vp and downe rather after the popish maner accompanied with other women Their translating and peruerting the order of Paules words a woman a sister will not defend their interpretation for he placeth his wordes thus a sister a wife where in the later place it is absurd the Greek word being that which sometime standeth generally for a woman sometime for such a woman as is also a wife to take it in the former sence for then therein there were a needlesse tautology for there is no sister but shee is a woman also But to leaue Peter with his wife and daughter what can they say to Socrates who in his fift booke and twentieth one Chapter of his story writeth that omnes praesbyteri illustres that is all renouned ministers in the East and Bishops also if they will no law compelling them may obstaine from their wiues for not a fewe of them whiles they are Bishops beget childrē of their lawfull wiues Historiae tripartitae lib. 9. ca. 38. Againe the 10. canon of the Ancyran
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
ministers either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy or that either they or their followers were the cause of the ciuil warres and troubles in France If the Duke of Sauoy haue any such right to Geneua as you pretend and that it be withholden from him it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the states ciuil of those parts why should it be layed to the charge of the ministers who you cannot proue haue had any intermedling therein And as for the troubles in France it appeareth by the stories thereof that they haue proceeded first from your owne side and that the doings of the protestant Princes there haue oftentymes beene iustified euen by the Kings owne edictes and proclamations to haue beene done in all loialty and that their warres haue beene but defensiue against the oppressions offered them contrary both to the ancient lawes and present edictes of the Land by certayne ambitious persons and not offensiue either to the Kings person or dignity And as for your Bishops and Priestes of whose being driuen from their lyuings by our men you complayne so much in some sorte I confesse thorow their occasion indeed they haue beene dispossessed thereof but that seditiously or tumultuously by force they haue beene driuen there from by them we vtterly deny For in most places they haue beene dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation and consideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto in solemne and lawfull assemblyes of the estates of the countries by the lawfull authority of the same estats as namely here with vs in EnglaÌ„d in Scotland and in other kingdomes where the Gospell is receiued and established by publique authority and by the same authority orderly our men whose right thereunto in those assemblyes and Parliamentes haue beene founde to be the better haue beene put into possession thereof And in other places your Bishops and Priestes as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospell when will they nill they they sawe it would take place in their territories forsooke their places and left them to those that had more right thereunto as for example they did in Geneua when the Gospell was first established there And no marueile though vpon the bare preaching of Gods trueth and the entertainment thereof many of your proude Bishops and superstitious Priestes can stand no loÌ„ger in their places For when the Arke of God came in presence Dagon could staÌ„d no longer though his frends set him vp againe neuer so often yea the more they stroue to haue him stand the more dangerous fall got he as you may read 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be leâ—ted but Christes saying will take place and be verified one time or other Euery plant that my heauenly father hath not planted shall be plucked vp by the rootes Matth. 15.13 whereupon it commeth indeed that the proude prelates of your Antichristian Hierarchie hauing gotteÌ„ vnto themselues titles and offices through the ambitious and fond deuise of mens heads which God neuer allowed to be for his house must needes when God meaneth to reforme his house and to establish his owne orders therein auaunte their roomes and leaue their liuinges for the Lordes true officers and allowed seruantes indeede Blame therefore the badnesse of your foundation and title for leesing of your liuings and nothing else You bid vs shew our euidence that our right to them is better then yours out of the ancient doctours In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes in his booke of Prescription against heretiques against vs and that of Paul How shall they preach vnlesse they bee sent Romans 10. I answere you not onely out of the ancient doctours but out of the Canonicall Scriptures also our ministers long ago haue made euident demonstration vnto the Princes and estates that haue driuen you out of possession and put them in that their title to your liuings was good and yours starke naught in that thereby they proued vnto them their religion to be ancient sound and Apostolique and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stampe though you according to your maner say we cannot deny but that your religion was planted throughout Christendome 1000. yeares before wee were borne which you shall neuer be able to proue true for wee most constantly deny both that antiquity and vniuersality of it And whensoeuer you will wee are ready againe by the same Scriptures and Doctours to proue our right by the same argument to bee good and sound and yours to be of no force come to the triall of it when and as oft as you will And therefore seeing it is a thing most euident that the reason why either you or we should pretend anie right to these or any other liuinges of the Church is that we feede the Church with wholesome and sounde doctrine wee hauing oft proued ours so to be by the grounds aforesaied and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours both Pauls saying and Tertullians must rather take place against you then vs. For I trust you will confesse that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach but those that preach the truth and questionles Tertullian vseth those words of his as by the wordes themselues as they are set downe by you it is euident not against those that were able to proue their doctrine sounde by the Apostles writings but against fantasticall heretiques such as had taught and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures deuised vpon their owne heades Against whom he being to prescribe both by the Scriptures and by the sounde testimony of those that succeeded the Apostles vntill his tyme he might lawfully and to good purpose say what are yee and from whence doe you come c. And truely when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in Tertullians tyme both in respect of doctrine and gouernment and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastours and teachers then and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word and then therewith on the other side compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie that hath beene these many yeares and yet is in yours ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing but in a number of points directly contrarying the word writen hee shall be enforced to thinke that if Tertullian were aliue againe and sawe notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle as though all were yours and no man had any right to any thing but your selues he would more vehemently vse these words here recited by you against your prelates then euer he did against Marcion Apelles or any other heretique in his time But you are so liberall vnto vs as to tell vs that though wee had commission from God yet he would haue called it backe euen for our noble actes and deedes in driuing you out of possession and taking possession though of our own before the sentence of the iudge was giuen Which you
then to lay to the charge of the Christians that they conspired amongst themselues against the state of the common weale and the ciuill and supreme magistrates thereof And therefore we can the more patiently abide this your dealing with vs in that herein we see we are no otherwise dealt withall by you then Gods people Christ his Apostles and other his faithfull seruants haue beene dealt withall in ancient time by your predecessours But the Lordes name be praised for it howsoeuer it hath pleased you in thus charging vs to intende the deposition and displacing of ciuill magistrates to conforme your selues to the ancient enemies of Gods people our doings in those places where our Religion hath beene longest settled doeth euidently in the eies of the world acquite vs hereof For in such places who seeeth not that the ciuill magistrates togither with it haue alwaies and yet doe honourably and quietly enioy their places and dignities Yea this wee dare bee bolde to say that the Christian Kings Princes and magistrates that haue giuen best entertainment vnto it finde by most manifest experience that both it and the professours therof haue better established them in their thrones and more aduanced them in their dignities then euer they were or could be by yours For now they are absolute Kings and Princes according to their right where as yours made thē to hold their kingdomes as the Popes vassals and so but at the curtesie and deuotion of a forrainer and of an intollerable proud and vnsatiable vsurping Prelate and now their treasure is kept at home to the strengthening greatly of their kingdomes and dominions which by your Romish Religiō gouernment was woont a 1000. waies most insatiably in infinit quantity yearly to the wonderfull weakning thereof to be conueied to Rome And whereas then by meanes of your auricular confession the secrets of euery Prince where that was vsed was often to the great peril of their states made knowen to many vndiscreet blabs by them their means to their forreine head the Pope and so he was thereby alwaies the better inabled for the furtherance of his owne deuises to preuent crosse theirs by the banishing of that Romish stratageme Princes coūsels secrets are kept at home in secret as they should to the great good of thē their cuntries And lastly by our Religion according to the examples of Dauid Salomō Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosiah Constātine Theodosius they are in possession of their full authority to cōmāde for Religiō in matters ecclesiastical aswel their subiects of the clergy as the rest whereas by your Religion they were supreme gouerners vnder God for matters ciuil only had their cleargy so exēpted from them and their iurisdiction that howsoeuer they had their bodies in their kingdomes to enioy the promotions thereof they had neither their bodies nor soules in further subiection then would stand with the pleasure and profit of the forraine potentate the Pope By meanes whereof Anselme Stephē Lanckton Thomas Becket and sundry other proude prelates of this land haue so stucke to the Pope against their soueraigne kings at home here in England that in comparison of the Pope they haue set their King at naught to the wonderfull trouble and disquiet of the whole land as notoriously appeares in our Cronicles Which things considered I thinke you may long tell Princes that you and your religion is frendly to them and that we and ours is hurtful vnto them before any of them that be wise beleeue you Truely I cannot but wonder at your grosse hypocrisie in this Chapter in that you are so earnest and busie not onely to proue it vnlawful and mōstrous how bad soeuer they that be in authority be to refuse to yeelde duety submission vnto them but also to lay to our charge that we haue an intention to place and displace ciuill magistrates at our pleasure For I cannot perswade my selfe that your skill in diuinity was so small but you were resolued for all this that the obedience and subiection taught in these places here quoted by you or any where else in the scriptures is not so infinite and absolute as that thereby subiects are bound to doe whatsoeuer by higher powers be it good or bad they are commanded to doe For how could it be possible that a man of your place should forget the vsual limitation in the Lord or that you should not remember that God must be obeied before man Neither yet can I thinke that you were ignorant but that the very same thing which here you charge vs with as with a grieuous fault hath bene and yet is openly practised and taught publickly to be very lawfull in your Church of Rome Hereof I am sure D. Allen a great man of your side in his 5 Chapter of his defence of English catholicks reckōs vp in a great brauery and bragge sundry Kings and Emperours by force deposed by the Pope And indeed it appears most euidently in sundry Chronicles that at their pleasure a long time they haue most shamefully misused Christian Princes potentates of the world For though they were and are beholden to the Christian Roman Emperours for their first aduancement from the state of poore persecuted bishops to the state of patriarches in these westerne parts yet in processe of tyme when the seat of the empire was remooued to Constantinople these westerne parts were gouerned by an exarch at Rauenna they through the help of certaine Kings of the Lombards and others in tokē of thankefulnesse to the ancient Emperours of Rome quite extinguished their Empire and authority in these west parts And in the ende not contented with that which they had incroched by the ruine of the Empire through the helpe of the Goths Vandals Lombards others seeking thereby their further aduācement Pope Zachary about the yeare 743. found the meanes to cause Childericke then King of France to bee deposed and he set vp Pipine in his roome whom he his successour Stephen the 2. aduanced to the Empire and therefore this Pipine Charles the great and Lodouicke his sonne which three immediatly succeeded one another in the new Empire thus translated vnto them by the Pope to gratify the Pope for the same they brought the Lombards and others that before beganne to be somewhat to sausie with the Popes vnder and bestowed vpon his see as Blondus Volateran note very many rich and great Ilands cities countries shires townes and prouinces whereby he was mightely aduanced Yet for all these great benefits receaued by the line of Pipine when his successours began not to be pliable enough as they thought to their becke in making warre against the Princes of Italy which began to pinch them for their wrong-gotten goods Gregorie the fifth about the yeare 1002. practiseth with the Germans to bring the Empire to them from the line of France and so Otho was set vp Emperour But when these German Emperours began
of his trueth out of his written word to call you from this newe found pretended religion of yours to the ancient and true catholicke faith which we haue learned out of the scriptures and of alsound antiquity you not onely burst out into this vaine and monstrously false brags of the antiquity of yours and nouelty of ours but also knowing in your own consciences that your folly therein wil soone be descried you cal then for miracles to confirme and warrant this our commission by which you would faine proue to be as necessarie for vs in this case as it was for Moses in his time thereby to confirme his Wherunto I say as vpon the like occasion S. Augustine said in his time de ciuitate Dei l. 22. c. 8. Whosoeuer yet seeketh after miracles that so he may beleeue he himselfe is a mōstrous miracle who the world beleeuing yet beleeues not For if our doctrine be the same that the Apostles taught as we are alwaies ready and by GODS grace able to proue it to be by the vndoubted woord of God then their miracles are so many seales of this our doctrine and so it beeing thereby sufficiently confirmed already by miracles needles is it to require any further confirmation thereof now by new miracles againe But you seeme to take it for granted that we stand either very much or altogither vpon the extraordinarines of our vocation and therfore supposing that such a vocation must alwaies be confirmed by miracles you call for them the rather thus earnestly at our hands Concerning which point I haue tolde you already that though in such ruins of the church as you had brought it vnto it bee no strange thing with God to stir vp men extraordinarily to seeke the reformation thereof as he did many of the Prophets yet neither the first ministers which in these later daies he hath vsed to this end amongst vs nor those that he hath vsed since to go on with that which the others began rely onely vpon an extraordinary calling for as I haue shewed both the one and the other haue had outward ordinary calling Besides you must vnderstand that a man may haue an extraordinary calling as had Nahū Abdia diuers other of the prophets who yet you cannot shew euer wrought any miracles to confirme their calling withal And to vse Chrysostomes words which he vsed against such as you in that commentary vpon Matth. Hom. 47. which you father vpon him what miracle wrought Iohn Baptist which instructed so many and great Cities For the Euangelist saieth he wrought none Iohn 10. And yet who therefore may lawfully say that he had no lawfull vocation or good commission Againe you know by that which is writen Deut. 13. 2. Thes 2. and elswhere that false prophets yea Antichrist himselfe may and shal seeke to seduce men and to draw men from God by miracles therefore there God forwarneth his people thereof that if notwithstanding they suffer themselues the rather to be peruerted thereby they may be voide of al excuse Wherefore seeing there haue bene sundry true prophets extraordinarily called that yet haue wrought no miracles and also many false prophets that haue wrought them and may doe agayne to what purpose should you thus call for miracles as though they straight might lawfully be refused that worke them not and they safely alwayes followed that doe them Howsoeuer you seeme to pretend that if we should worke miracles you would beleeue vs yet certayne it is that if we should worke neuer so many you would as little for all that beleeue vs as the blinde and superstitious Iewes beleeued Christ and his Apostles for all the myracles wrought by them but this is onely a shift of yours as long as you may to dazell the eyes of the simple For questionles if myracles would serue the turne beside sundry miracles indeede which the stories doe testifie haue beene wrought by God in the protection and propagation of the religiō which we now professe euē this is a miracle of miracles that Luther lyuing in such a time as he did should doe as he did to so great effect wtout miracle yet in the end maugre al his enemies which were many mighty to die quietly as he did in his bed So that al these things considered it appeareth I hope sufficiētly to the indifferent reader that you haue no such aduantage against vs for miracles and you pretend But because your obiectiō in this behalfe is so egerly prosecuted by you I wil not refuse to follow you frō step to step to yeeld you a more particuler āswer to whatsoeuer you haue sayed in this matter First therefore whereas you would insinuate to your reader that we doe wrong in comparing the misery that the poor people were in vnder your Popes to the misery that the people of Israel were in in Aegipt vnder Pharao their deliuerāce frō the Romish yoke to the deliuerāce of that people frō the bōdage of Aegypt we graūt you we make that comparison sometimes we are sure that therein there is offred no wrong at al vnto you For both in vniuersality continuannce of time and extremity both to soule bodie the slauery vnder your proud antichristian Popes hath exceeded theirs vnder Pharao in Aegypt and consequently the deliuerance of the people from that of yours must needes beeing as it is both more spiritual and general then that of theirs was much exceed that of theirs But that therefore it is as necessary that wee should anew work miracles to confirme our vocation to doe this as it was for Moses to confirme his calling to doe the other thereby therin you are both deceiued seeke also to deceiue others For Moses by God was shewed that he should so confirme his and so are not we that we shal or ought so to confirme ours and his calling thereunto was not onely extraordinary whereas ours in great part at least as I haue shewed hath bene to this ordinary but also the thing it selfe and the means to bring it to passe both in the eies of Pharao al others were strange miraculous wheras in this our case in delyuering mē frō your antichristiā seruitude bringing thē to the liberty freedome purchased for thē by the bloud of Christ by the preaching of the worde of God sincerely ministring his sacraments accordingly both are wōted ordinary For what is more ordinary with God then to bring mē frō error to trueth that by these means in his church The thing that Moses was sent to doe was a new strange thing for a man of his quality wtout force of war weapons to deliuer so great gainful a people out of the hands of such an hard hearted tyrāt it is wōderful therfore it was likewise necessary that the means that he should effect that by especially should be miracles Finally there was no certainer way for Moses hauing to
disgrace Canus may tearme them a dead iudge which can neither heare nor speake in his Chapter booke before named in like sorte others in the following of this comparison with your good allowance shall may call them incken diuinity what else they list as we ofteÌ„ haue shewed you and them the onely rest vpon them scripture men or men whose Religion and diuinity lieth in rags skins of beasts because of such things the bookes are made wherein they are conteined Many beastly blasphemous speeches and assertions thus tending to the disgrace of the Canonicall scriptures any man that list may finde LyndaÌ„s three first bookes of his panoply Hosius booke de expresso Dei verbo his triple dialogue Cusans 2. Epist ad Bohemos 7. Andradius Florebellê° Priereas almost all your famous writers of these later daies euery where full oft where they haue any occasion to weaken those arguments that we vse against you either for that you are in your positions wherein we dissent froÌ„ you without warrant of scripture or that they are contrary to scripture And wheÌ„ we vrge you that of what credit soeuer the tradition of the church be that you so pleade for yet if it be the word of God aswel as the scripture then it must needes be that it agreeth with the scripture is not contrary vnto it for as much as God is alwaies one selfesame and therfore alwaies agreeing with himselfe therefore presse you with that which by the wordes circuÌ„stances of the text of the scripture we are sure is the true sence thereof therfore the vndoubted word of God theÌ„ you euen the greatest of you are driueÌ„ to these poore base shifts to cry out with Cardinal Hosius in his 4. booke against BreÌ„tius in his booke de expresso Dei verbo before named that scripture as it is alleaged of Catholiques it is the word of God but as it is alleadged of heretiques the expresse word of the Deuill or as he saieth also in the later booke if any haue the expositioÌ„ of the RomaÌ„ church of any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whither how it agreeth with the words of the scripture yet he hath the very word of God And when all comes to all though sometime you would make the pore simple people beleeue that in expounding the scriptures you will follow the vniforme consent of holy fathers and councels yet both this Cardinall Hosius in his triple dialogue and Cardinal Cusan in his 2. Epist ad Bohemos tell vs teach vs plainely to vnderstaÌ„d you that you meane no other sence theÌ„ agreeth with the present practise of the RomaÌ„ church when thaâ— sence is giueÌ„ not once blushing to confesse that according to the variablenes of the fashioÌ„ and practise of that church the scriptures must be vnderstood and therefore Cusan coÌ„mends that obedience that is yeelded thereunto simply without reasoning as the Oxe or Asse obeys his master For whatsoeuer sometimes you talke of Popes not erring of the not erring of generall couÌ„cels or of the authority of the fathers none that haue any thing craueiled in tracing you into your starting holes wheÌ„ otherwise you see you must needs be pinched takeÌ„ to your shaÌ„e but he easily seeth that in trueth none of these no nor all these togither with the scriptures themselues are of any credit and authority with you against the present practise of your RomaÌ„ Church One father or the present Pope if he speake hold with that though all the fathers beside are of another minde thogh neuer so many of his predecessors held otherwise yet farewell they in this case you will and must preferre this one before all the other These things being most true notoriously knowen to all men that with any indifferency haue traueiled in the controuersies betwixt you vs euery one hath cause to see howsoeuer somtimes you would seeme to yeeld some thing to the authority of the scriptures that you are at a flat point that neither they nor any authority els of maÌ„ or men old or new shall or may retaine any sence of force against the present practise and receaued opinioÌ„ of your sinagogue And as loÌ„g as you are at this point whatsoeuer you haue said of heretiques abusing of scripture as though you were the only men that had care rightly to vse them vnderstaÌ„d them euery simple body may see that of all men you are they by the variablenes of your Romish church practise which are most likely to make a nose of waxe and leaden rule both of the letter of the scriptures and sence thereof And therefore whereas in your 23. c. you boldly affirme that to draw the scriptures by violeÌ„ce into a wroÌ„g sence is the maner of interpreting the scriptures called at this day the pure word by those that haue professed as long as they liue to be enemies to the trueth most fitly may be vnderstoode of your selues for you are so in loue with the present practise fashion and opinion of your RomaÌ„ church that though that vary neuer so often euen so ofteÌ„ must the scriptures will they nill they vary and alter their sense Howbeit I am not ignoraÌ„t but that in so writing you meant vs though I am sure you shall neuer be able to proue vs either to haue professed at all any enmity with the truth or so to vse to wrest the scriptures But because this is a matter of great importaÌ„ce and therfore such as caÌ„not be determined either by your yea or our nay it shal not be amisse vpoÌ„ this occasioÌ„ to coÌ„sider what souÌ„d rules of interpreting there be that by the same it may be tried whither your interpreting of the scriptures or ours deserue thus to be called a drawing of the scriptures by violence to a corrupt sence The vniforme consent of doctors you would ofteÌ„ seeme as I haue saied in this case to make reckoning of as of a souÌ„d and Apostolicke rule of interpreting them by but this is but for a fashioÌ„ for you haue giuen vs doe daily manifest proofes that wheÌ„ but one or two against all the rest of theÌ„ hold with your curraÌ„t and present practise of your Roman church that now is that that one or two of them ouer wey with you al the rest And besides if this were a necessary rule then none could be interpreters of the scriptures but those that had all or the most part of the doctours to peruse few or none then ancient doctors writers there haue beene so many their names are so vnknowen to most could be sure when they had the consent of the most and best on their side and so neuer should be sure of the sence and for many places very little or nothing oftentimes haue they writen Though therefore we will not shunne the trial of our interpretations with you by this rule yet we account
these more certaine rules helps to finde out the true sence first that the true Grāmaticall sence of the words and speech vsed by the holy ghost bee soundly and rightly vnderstoode by sound knowledge of Grammer Rhetoricke for the natiue signification of the words and vse of the phrase whereunto much helpeth conference of translation with translation of all transtations if neede be with the originall tongues Secondly that diligent consideration be had of the circumstances of the text in hand as namely what is the matter scope thereof vpon what occasion it was vttered who vttered it to whom where when Thirdly that it be taken in such a sence as will agree best with these circumstances and stand well with all other places of scripture And lastly that no sence be admitted but that which will stand with the sound proportion and summe of Christian faith and good maners taught vs plainely elsewhere in the scriptures By these rules we doubt not but to iustifie approue that to be the true sence of the scriptures which we take them in either for the confirmation of the trueth which we holde or for the confutation of the errours which you defend And such rules they are as the ancient fathers in defending the ancient Catholique faith against heretiques haue alwaies vsed and no other as appeareth in their workes And such they are as Augustine in his bookes of Christiā doctrine doeth prescribe as most necessary in this case to be followed as no mā can or ought to make any exception against And yet such they are as would anone discouer the ridiculous vanity of your interpretatiōs in any controuersie betwixt vs and you For example let vs try here by your interpretation of Hoc est corpus meū which to be soūd you will liue and die in By what grammer or by helpe of what tongue or translation shall the word Est is be all one with transubstantiatur in is transubstantiated into Sure I am in no language nor in anie Dictionarie shall you euer finde the verbe Substātiue takē in that sense Secondly the matter in hand when those words were vttered was a sacrament Christ spake them to his Apostles at his last supper to the ende to institute a sacrament to continue a duetifull remembrance of his death vntill his second comming What reason is there then to the contrarie but that this speech should be taken as the like speech alwaies els hath beene and yet is in other Sacramentes Where Est is neuer taken coupling the signe and the thing signed togither whereof a Sacrament consisteth as you doe here for It is turned into but for signifieth which standeth also well with the nature of a Sacrament whereas yours ouerthroweth the nature thereof in so annihilating or transubstantiating of the signe that you leaue no signe to beare any analogie of the thing resembled which is the ground of such Sacramentall phrases Thirdly your sence agreeth not with the rest of the scriptures not onely in that in the whole bodie of the Scriptures you cannot finde Est Is placed as it is here betwixt two thinges of diuerse kindes as breade and body be taken in your sence and yet in such propositious you finde it vsually taken for it signifieth or representeth but also in that the scripture for all that speech calleth it bread still euen whiles it is in eating 1. Corin. 10. 11. cap. and expoundeth the eating thereof to bee a communion or partaking with or of the body of Christ and that spirituall not by corporall cōiunction 1. Cor. 10. Lastly your interpretation for the bringing in establishing of a corporall reall eating of Christ with the mouth of the bodie which is a thing neuer taught vs in the word but such a kinde of feeding on him as you your selues confesse Iudas and such may atteine vnto and be neuer the better shaketh yea subuerteth al those articles that concerne Christs true manhoode making him to haue euen for that needles presence sake a body without any of the essential and inseparable properties of a body yea at one selfesame time to haue a body visible sensible and locall in heauen yet inuisible insensible and without dimentions of place in earth Besides it is against good maners which forbiddeth eating of mans flesh and drinking of his bloud either openly or secretly couered vnder or in another thing And truely Auerroes had some reason of all men in the world to thinke such Christians as you the most sauage and foolish that first would fal downe worship a peece of bread for your God whē you haue so done eate him vp and deuour him Howsoeuer you please your selues in this interpretation and in your imagination grounded thereupon I am fully perswaded that this your multitude of images and idols are two of the principall causes whereby you haue hardened the hearts both of the Turkes and Iewes against Christiā Religion And as I haue read some of them haue to some of your fellowes being in hand to perswade them to turne frō their Religion to yours yeelded these two reasons why they thought yours worse then their owne and consequently as sufficient cause why they would not yeelde to yours Now if I should but barely recite a number of other your interpretations and collections of the scripture which yet with you go for very sound and Catholique interpretations collections I am sure it were sufficient to make euery reader thereof that hath anie witte or discrecion left him to thinke that there were neuer heretiques in the world that haue more fondly vainely interpreted the scriptures then you For example let the reader marke these for a tast God made two great lights the sunne the moone that is the Pope the Emperour therefore as many degrees as the moone is inferiour to the sonne is the Emperour inferiour to the Pope Innocēt de Maioritate obediēt Glossa Ibid. Peter saied he had two swords that is the tēporall spirituall sword therfore the Pope hath both powers Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the councell of Trent blusheth not to apply to the Pope these words The Pope the light is come vnto the world men loue darknes more then light Euery one the euill doeth hateth the light commeth not to the light least his deedes be reproued Yea Paulus Aemilius in his 7. booke testifieth that the Pope suffred the Legates of Cicilia being prostrate before him to say vnto him Qui tollis peccata mundi Thou which takest away the sins of the world haue mercy vpon vs Thou which takest away the sins of the world graūt vs peace thus blasphemously applying that to the Pope which belongeth to Christ But you will say these were but the popes flatterers that made these expositiōs applications What then they were made vttered wtout checke yea to the liking of the Pope And a picture once
surest way of declaring the scriptures to expoūd one scripture by another in his 3. booke of Christian doctrine cap. 26. and in those bookes writen of Christian doctrine many moe very profitable Which way Chrys thought so sure a way that he saieth flatly The holy scriptures expound thēselues and suffer not the Reader to erre in his 12. Homil vpon Gen And yet for all this to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought neither for the triall of your interpretations nor yet for determining of this question whither you haue the spirit of trueth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselues for triall of their doings to this but your Popes thinke scorne to looke so lowe yea rather they will haue all questions wherein they are principall parties themselues tryed by themselues and you and they crie out that this is not the readiest way to ende such questions But who is so madde as to thinke that you can finde out a better way then Christ and his Apostles vsed You will send vs say some of you for the triall of these matters vnto the doctours and councels and yet when it commeth to the point vnles they and their sayings please you yee reiect them also And you cannot denie but that oftentimes also it is farre more disputable and doubtfull what was their meaning then what is the meaning of the Scripture and you know also that it is an vsuall thing with them to sende vs backe againe to the Scriptures for triall of their writings as it appeareth in Augustines 19. Epist to Hirom and in his 111. Epist to Fortunatian And therefore indeede say you what you will this is the safest surest and readiest way of triall of this and all other matters in question betwixt vs to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures I would to God therfore that once you would giue ouer al other bie and indirect trials and come onely to this for then it would quickely appeare euen to the simple whither you or wee were rather to be followed For all this we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter in warning men to take heede that they doe not rashly beleeue follow euery one that will pretend that they haue the scriptures on their side But whereas you write that the heresies which you will after speake of that were condēned by the Catholique church were as well more largely confirmed by scriptures thē we can thereby confirme our Religiō therein first you most vntruely report that of vs as we doubt not but to make it euident vnto the world if you would once come to any indifferent trial with vs secondly I must admonish the reader that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church but that that catholique Church was not yours nor as yours now is For the differences be infinite betwixt yours the Church thē by reason whereof there is as great difference betwixt the Church then and yours now in effect as there is betwixt ours now and yours In your recitall of the heretiques abusing the scriptures diuers things slipt from you also worthy the noting namely these that you could not content your selfe with shewing vs how they did abuse the Scriptures in wrong alleaging them but that as though your fingers itched to shew that you had as good skill therein as they you still intermingle with theirs your owne cunning in shewing how other places might be abused in like maner neither confuting in the ende their collections nor your owne how dangerous soeuer Another tricke you haue in noting the trueths impugned by them and the maner how they went to worke though neuer so vntruly yet cōfidently to set downe that the things which we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them that they set themselues then against and that they cried out against traditions of men and cried onely for the writen word as we doe wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you were hatched then and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion to flie from the Scriptures and to accuse them as you doe and to vrge traditions that they also vsed to vrge other such like grounds for their heresies as you doe as I haue shewed cap. 3. The last is that for the most part you charge them with what you list not shewing vs where you read or finde ground for these things wherewith you charge them belike least in turning to the places examining you proofes we should to your discredit haue occasion thereby to discry in you either some malice errour ignorance or some negligence at the least For example how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places then the Catholicks Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vs Hus and his schollers condemning them But to passe on from these things to your conclusion vpon these premisses and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter I graunt you by that which you haue writen in the former chapters it may be seene that one ill disposed maie soone alleage scripture in a corrupt sence but what is this to proue that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is that the holie scriptures which we alleage do not iustifie our doings If you would haue proued this indeed you should haue proued that we alleage the scriptures in a wrong sence as these did that you haue talkt on but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you therfore you thought good not once to meddle with it But yet as though either you had proued it or else that it could not but wtout proofe be graūted you you boldly affirme as these hereticks that you haue talkt of haue perished their heresies so shall we our followers if we repent not Wherunto I answere first that so repentance maie be takē that it is most true that not onely we our followers but you yours also al men else must repent or else we al you and al other shal perish but taking it as you doe for repēting of our religiō of alleaging of the scriptures which we doe for the maintenāce of it against you you haue saied nothing at al as yet to make vs once to thinke that we haue any need at al so or therof to repēt Secōdly I saie that in thus saying you haue shewed your malice boldnes more then any thing else for you haue therin vttered nothing but a blind prophets dreāe and fansie which no man of any wisedome or discretion wil make any reckoning of It is wel yet that the euidēce of the trueth hath enforced you here to confesse that it maie be seene in al the ancient ecclesiastical writers that the doctours fully
answered by texts of scripture these old heresies by you before mētioned For euen therby you maie see that though heretickes neuer so much misaleage scripture that yet the true ministers of the Lord may must alleage them euen to answere to cōfute their heresies by And therfore it stādeth stil firme that if we by alleaging of thē aright cā proue you heretickes your opiniōs which we striue against heresies which no further then we can doe we neuer craue anie credit to be giuē vs whatsoeuer you would seeme to haue saied to beat vs frō alleaging of thē that it appears that therby both we our doings and religion are sufficiētly iustified both before God and mā These misalegers of scripture which in al these Chapters you haue spoken of you saie you will not staie to confute for two causes because they raigne not now and their heresies togither with thē the authours therof are perished because the anciēt doctors haue cōfuted them as you saie but indeed the reason was that you were loth to occupie either your selfe or reader in so profitable a matter It semeth you tooke more delight in shewing how the scripture might be misalleaged to fortifie heresie then how rightlie alleaged to cōfute the same and therfore you could find leasure to stay 4. or 5 Chap. in that but not at al vpon this Besides if it be true that you haue reported if you had wel remēbred your selfe you would not so generally haue saied that they were al perished For read your Chap. ouer again and you shal finde that therin you haue spoken of some that are not so quite dead and perished but that euen in these daies they need to be cōfuted But you say that with you haue here noted either of them or of their heresies and their alleaging of scripture for the sāe you haue done it onely to giue warning to simple people that they should not too rashly giue ear to false pastors which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holy scripture and the pure word of God so couering the cups of their poison with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken frō the image of the eternal king to paint those subtil foxes that will lead them al to dānatiō If you had indeed done it onely to this end you had not bene to be misliked but in deed and trueth you haue done it to breed in men a carelesnes and negligence in searching the scriptures and a cōtempt of alleaging the same to determine the cōtrouersies betwixt vs and you Otherwise thinke as you speake and we are ready to ioine with you both in this also in that which you adde in wishing the simple and vnlearned in reading the harde places to take heed they fal not into error by taking onelie the letter c. For if great learned men thereby haue bene endangered how much more may such But surely this is rather a caue at meet and needful for you thē for vs if we go no further but to your peeuish taking of the letter of hoc est corpus meū contrary to al sound rules of right interpreting as I haue shewed before Now wheras hereupon you take occasion according to your maner to ieere at our ministry as though in Frāce Englād especially it were generally vnlearned and consisted of the basest and most contemptible of the people you are worthy of smal answere your speech there about is so apparētly false slāderous For God be thāked in both kingdoms you your selues are enforced to feele to your whole kingdoms griefe and deadly wound in the end I doubt not that there are great store of learned ministers and bishops far other maner of men then you haue named And therfore your own conscience could not but tel you vnles it were seared with a hoate iron that they doe in neither kingdōe cōmit the guiding of the sterne wtout cōsideratiō to al kinde of people In both places both their doctrine publicke order of their churches aimeth at a learned godly ministry wherof if in some particulers they faile which in so great a multitude and compasse altogither cannot bee auoided the faulte is to bee laied in the particuler men by whose negligence or corruption it so commeth to passe and not in either of the churches which would gladly that no such fault should at all be committed Howbeit I dare say howsoeuer you ruffle in your tearms of pedlers Coblers Tanners Bankerouts and raunagates and say that such be our interpreters of the scriptures and that we hold euery such one once admitted by a bishop to be a minister to haue the spirit and to be great doctours to whom no place of scripture is too hard because they can rayle of the Pope say al the ancient doctours were men and the generall councels did erre that yet you can neither proue our ministers to be such nor that for these balde reasons wee thinke any so qualified as you write It pleased you but in this to shew your spitefull and malicious spirit but alas who will thinke doe you what you can that you indeed mislike a base and vnlearned ministry who not onely haue held and yet haue as great cause so to doe stil as euer that ignorance is the mother of deuotiō but also vpon that ground haue all your Church seruice in a tongue that the people shall not vnderstand and content your selues for the most part with such priests as can scarsely rightly read the same Truely if there had bene but a crumme of right modesty shamefastnes in you knowing as you doe the notorious basenes grossenes and ignorance of your ordinary masse-priestes you would neuer haue taken this pleasure that it seemeth you did in thus railing on defacing and slandering of ours Indeed by that saying of Christ Matth. 11. by you quoted Ioh. 8. when we see what grace and giftes of knowledge God oftentimes amongst vs bestoweth vpon such in the meane time beholding in what great blindnes and errour a number of great Rabbins and doctours amongst you walke on still we take occasion as Christ hath taught vs to giue thankes to our heauenly father that hath reuealed these thinges vnto babes which yet your great wise men and men of vnderstanding see not But you would not haue vs by this place to defend that such meane men may come to be cunning and skilfull in the Scriptures Your reasons are two for that other heretiques haue so alleadged it and for that this is to be vnderstood of the humble in spirit whereas these men of ours trust to their owne wittes and are puft vp with arrogant ignorance c. You thought good yet neither to tell vs what heretikes when nor where howsoeuer you knowe I trust that men must not shame wel to vse that Scripture that heretiques haue abused Concerning your other reason I graūt you the place is to be vnderstood onely of the humble and meeke in
is no reason in the world why you should count from that yeare for neither Daniels words will beare it neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christs death for that was about the yeare of the world 3354 and he suffâ—ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth Neither is there any mention in Dan of 72. weekes but of 70 of numbers whereinto he deuideth that Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetique or wits were very sleÌ„der to reckon 72. weekeâ— that is so maâ—y times 7. years to be iust fiue hundred when as if you account againe you shall finde that your number is not so iust by 4. as you would seene for 72. times 7. makes 504. A shaâ—efull learned man sure you haue shewed your selfe here but he did assigne the very time that is to say by the seuenty two weekes counting from the fourth yeare of the raigne of Zedechias vntil the time that our Sauiour was naâ—â—ed vpon the Crosse the which time was iust 5. huÌ„dred years TheÌ„ seeing that Christ came at the verie prescribed time he might well haue saied vnto the Iewes that the Scriptures did beare witnes of him But yet to say the trueth if he had done no other but this he had not fully approued his vocation to condemne their incredulity For they might haue saied vnto him we know wel that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob about this time forasmuch as the scepter of this kingdome is taken froÌ„ the line of Iuda to be deliuered vnto Herod But what though is this a good consequence a But now that tâ—is point is sufficiently confirmed already so also al the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles therefore now to refuse to beleeue the ordinarie ministers of the Church vnles they proue the same againe by miracles which is your deaâ—ing with vs is an euident signe of vnbeliefe the Messiaâ— ought to coÌ„e about this time therefore it is I No no shew vs your coÌ„mission let vs see some signes how we shal know it for if we should receiue you as our king it may be that some other would come and craue the like saying that we were abused Our Sauiour Christ sore fearing this obiection toâ—ke another witnes with him besides the scripture I meane his miracles The workes that I doe saieth * John 5. Christ in the name of my father beare witnesse of me The like proofe is made wheÌ„ S. Ioh. * Mat. 11. Baptist sent his disciples to our Sauiour to haue him teach the true beliefe that they should haue in him this question was put to him art thou he that should come or ought we to attend for some other Go your waies saied Christ and tel Iohn what yee haue heard and seene The blinde receiue their sight the lame doe walke vpright the dumbe speake the deafe heare the lepers are cured the dead are raised againe and the poore are preached vnto the which is as much to say as tel Iohn that I am the true Messias that he ought to attend â—â— other I doe verifie my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles For first Esay doeth write that when the Messias should come he should doe the Miracles aboue mentioned Then seeing that I haue done theÌ„ in your presence it foloweth that I am he that should come Thus you see Sirs that both the b And by the same scriptures and by the same Miracles we iustifie our vocatioÌ„ and religion what wil you haue more Scripture and Miracles were necessarie for the confirmation of the comming of Christ among the Iewes who were neuer harder of beleife then we are according to your opinion and therefore blame vs not if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures c But they doe 2. Thess 2. Apoc 14. vers 8.6 and 7. the which doe neither beare witnes of your comming nor yet doe any miracles the which two thinges and more are necessary to make vs beleeue your reformed Gospell The XXX Chapter THe drift of this Chapter is to proue that Christ did not onely warraÌ„t his vocatioÌ„ doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures but also by miracles which I grant you proue sufficiently Wherupon you would coÌ„clude that we accouÌ„ting you as hard of beleife as euer were the Iewes therefore we should proue our calling and religion vnto you by both whereas if it be true that you say we can doe neither and so are to bee sent packing like coggers onely of the Scriptures Whither the Scriptures giue testimony vnto our religion or no. I referre to the reader to iudge by that which I haue writen already by that we haue writen from time to time in our bookes made in the defence of our religion And concerning our vocation and calling I trust I haue sufficiently confirmed that by theÌ„ also in that I haue shewed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time But if further you require a more speciall testimony from thence of our comming by our calling I sende you now to 2. Thess 2.8 and Reuel 14.6 c. where it is prophecied that God would towards the later end send his messeÌ„gers againe to consume Antichrist and by preaching the euerlasting Gospel to ouerthrow Babylon And as touching miracles you haue bene answered sufficiently already but that you complaine not that we refuse to answere you as long as you can obiect any thing to this now alleadged I say that you must vnderstand that it was necessary for Christ to confirme his calling by miracles because it is true as you alleage out of Esay that it was prophecied that the Messias should worke miracles when he came so also it was necessary once to establish and confirme the particular doctrine of his person the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law and other such new strange things as the comming of the Messias brought with it both to Iew and Gentile which reasons you cannot shew why we should work miracles now to confirme our vocation or religion by to you For neither was it prophecied that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption or the whore of Babylon to her fall by working of miracles but as you haue heard by the spirit of Gods mouth breathing in his euerlasting gospell the force whereof in our ministry you perceiue daily to be such that it is eueÌ„ a miracle and wonder vnto you to see in how short time it hath preuailed and preuaileth still against your kingdome doe you what you can to let it neither neede those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles which are the onely things that wee teach to be for your sakes confirmed againe though you be neuer so harde hearted The word writeÌ„ and the miracles therin recorded already must serue the turne to conuert you to our religion therein taught and
that it is possible that such filthy heretiques as Seruetus was may shewe themselues stout in dying But what is all this to proue that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church or that they died as heretiques for heresie Before you can say any thing to the purpose either to proue them no true martyrs or to blemish their patience you should haue proued that their cause and religion for which they died was not the sound Christian trueth and faith but that you wil neuer bee able to doe And therefore both al this and what els you haue noted though falsely for there is no such thing in either of these two places out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the questiō For whatsoeuer they there spake they spake it of heretickes therfore it hath no force against vs vntil you can proue vs so in alleadging Cypriās testimony by the way of parēthesis you say we know of what Church hee spake when hee sayed the heretiques that hee wrote of could not bee saued because they separated themselues from the Church the house of peace Indeed wee knowe that hee ment not your Church which is a bloudie house a house of warre cōtentiō a house of error superstitiō but the Church of Christ that was in his time to with yours is not so like as a drunken man is to a sober discreet man or a whore vnto an honest matrone for there is likelihood in substāce though not in quality yours is vnlike to the Church then in both Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites or Hussites you would say or at least I am sure you should say a noble martiall Captaine for minister he was none of them whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites or Hussites for so they were called not as you call them At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet Caluins dearling but you cānot proue that he was euer in any such accoūt with Caluin why you should tearme him so But yet if he had beene so thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time the more commendation was it to Caluin that when he proued an obstinate heretique hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God that all former affection set a part he furthered his due punishment as he did And for al your speech of his willingnes to die at Geneua and great patience in dying I cannot read but that he shunned death there as much as he could keeping or holding still his heresie and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder felonie and treason with as great shew of courage and patience as he But to let these things passe and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this which was as you shewe in the beginning of it to proue that neither our vocation nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs what hath bene saied as yet to proue this Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this The cause that a man dyeth for must bee good and hee must bee no heretique many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience Ergo c. This argument is starke naught for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued but this that indeed should haue giuē life to your argument that ours died in and for an ill cause were heretiques which is indeede the thing onely in question like a wise man because you could not proue it you let alone But therfore you shall be contented for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you to be denied both it and your conclusion which without it you can neuer come vnto You will therefore proue as you make your reader beleeue that our Martyrs were such as died in an ill cause as heretiques and therefore went to hel But what be your proofes Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran in a worke of his but it seemeth either you could not or would not tel vs in what worke for some politique reason you had doubtles mocked at Caluin for vaūting but where he made this vaunt or where we may finde it you tel vs not that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua prouing vnto him that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space and that the Deuill had his Martyrs his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs but they might for all his bragge be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs What a miserable argument is this A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side therefore therupon it shall follow that it was well and truely saied of him I thinke you will grāt me that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both yet in heat of contention one against another Epiphanius burst out into such choler as he saied that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop to whō Chrysostōe answered as angerly again that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres infinite be the examples whereby we may see that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another And therefore God forbid that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another should by and by a firme argument be gathered that it is euen so as the one hath saied of the other But you will say you stād not so much vpō his speach against Caluins Martyrs as vpō that that there were mo of the Anabaptists that had died in a shorter space then he talked of and that otherwise the deuil hath had his martyrs which we cānot deny Hereupon indeed it followeth that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion and the followers of it from the bare death and shew of patience of them that hold it is not good but so did neuer any of vs reason For first we labour to proue the cause good and that done then in the patience of such as haue died in so good cause togither with the cause we take comfort And yet in trueth we are sure we may speak it to the glory of God there were neuer either so many or any that so patiently died for any other opinion or opinions whatsoeuer as first and last died for the testimony of our religion For we account all them ours that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in that we are able by the Scriptures to proue our religion to be the same we are sure we are not deceiued in our account In the conclusion of this Chapter to
done so likewise therein your fault is double For first in so saying you tearme the Religion for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died false which you shall neuer be able to proue so to be and secondly in so saying you would seeme to make your Reader beleeue that amongst those whom you call Lutherans some haue died euen for the confirmation of their singular opinion wherein they differ from their brethren whom you call Caluinists and that so some haue died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities which is more also then you can proue I am fully perswaded The XXXIII Chapter SOme of your godly sect to a If you had meant to deale plainely you should haue named the man the place where any of vs do thus childishly reasoÌ„ verifie that the vocation of your ministrie doeth come of God doe set before our eies the holines of those new Christians that is to saie how they neuer sweare but yea for yea and no for no that they doe no wrong to no man that they doe neither robbe nor steale but that they are content with that that God hath sent them that they are very charitable to the poore then seeing that our sauiour doeth saie that one shall know the tree by the fruit b â—ndeede we may truely say howsoeuer some that professe our religion either through the coÌ„mon frailty of man or hypocrisie haue too too little of this fruit growing of theÌ„ that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion they should bear this sweet pleasant fruit abundaÌ„tly we ought to confesse saie they that the tree being good the fruit is good that is to saie their Religion is good seeing that by the grace of God it doeth produce such sweet pleasant fruite I answere you first to this that our sauiour doeth not euer giue generall rules but that that most commonly doeth happen as when he saieth that * Luc 6. of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh would you affirme by this that his meaning was vniuersally God forbid that he that is the authour of all trueth should meane so starke a lie Doe you not remember what speech he did vse to the Pharisees wheÌ„ he saied * Mat. 15. this people doe honour me with their mouthes but their hearts are farre from me you see that this sentence is contrary to the other if you doe not vnderstand it as I haue saied that is to saie that manie times a man doeth vtter that that is in his heart as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises a couetous man to talke of riches or gaines and so it is of all other sinnes But with all this a man may not affirme truely that hypocrisie doeth neuer raigne in their hearts whose mouthes are full of Gods word * Dan. 19. The Iudges of S. Susan had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes and the Deuill in their hearts * John 18. We haue a lawe saied the Iewes and Pharisees against Christ and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moses he ought to die The zeale of iustice did sound in their mouthes and hatefull enuie did dwell in their heartes And therefore you see manie times that man doeth speake contrarie to that that hee thinketh and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour when he saieth that by the fruite one shall knowe the tree For manie times naturally the fruit is good although the tree be worth nothing c The heatheÌ„ Philosophers liues howsoeuer they caried a shew of the matter of holines they caÌ„not be said to be holy good indeed because their workes were without faith lacked the form of good workes as the famous liues and workes of diuerse heathen Philosophers doe witnesse of whom the holines and scrupulosity of conscience was such that I doe beleeue assuredly that at the daie of iudgement a great number of Christians which leade Painims liues will be confouÌ„ded with the example of those men that knew not God Thus of the first the fruite is good but the trees are worth nothing for their Religion was false Idolatrous applying as S. * Rom. 1. Paul doeth saie the truth of God to vnrighteousnes And as for the second the trees are good being grafted vpoÌ„ the true Catholique Religion but the fruites doe degenerate from the stocke The XXXIII Chapter IN this Chapter you saie that some of vs haue gone about to iustifie that our vocation is of God by the holines of life found amongst vs because Christ hath saied The tree is knowen by his fruit and the good tree bringeth forth good fruite Mat. 7.17 Howsoeuer thus you would perswade your reader that wee are driuen to vse these kinde of arguments taken from the shew of patience in our Martyrs and the goodnes of the liues of the professors of our religion the trueth is though sometime the goodnes of their cause considered we take comfort in their patience and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembred in some sort we reioice therof also yet neuer did we build the credit of our vocation or religion vpon either of these For we know there may be hath bene great shew of patieÌ„ce in such as haue died for heresie and that religion is not to be iudged either by the badnes or shew of goodnes in the liues of them that professe it For both amongst the professours of sound Religion we know there hath alwaies beene are and will be some lewd liuers and also amongst those of a false Religion thorow the force of hypocrisy and superstition there hath beene found and may be still a marueilous great outward shew of holines and piety And therefore doe we alwaies teach our hearers readers to learne to discerne the true Religion from the false by searching the Scriptures and not by viewe of these thinges which therein may deceiue them Wherefore you might very well haue eased both your reader your selfe of all the paines you haue taken about this matter in these foure next Chapters Howbeit seing you could aforde so much needeles paines to disgrace what you could the profession of the trueth I will bee contented to take so much paines as to weigh what you haue saied and giue you such answere as you deserue for the maintenance of the credit thereof In this Chapter first you would proue by conference of this foresaied rule of Christ with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh that it is no more generall theÌ„ that For after out of Math. 15. and other places you haue shewed that notwithstanding that saying of Christ man oftentimes speaketh otherwise then it is in his heart you conclude euen so is it many times naturally the fruite is good when the tree is naught as in the good liues of many heathen
the philosophers of outward good works wherof you brag lustily in the later ende of this Chapter yet you shall neuer be able to proue your selues good trees because your Religion by the sound and perfect touchstone of the scriptures wil be proued false and Idolatrous This your selfe giue to be the very reason why the philosophers were bad trees notwithstanding that in respect of outward shew of holines we may truely confesse with you that euen their liues at the day of iudgement shall will confound a number of Christians in name which led Painims liues And therefore vntill it be set out of question that your Religion is not false nor Idolatrous which is impossible as long as the Scriptures keepe their place if you bragge of ten times moe outward workes then either you doe or can yet your owne mouth will condemne you as yet to haue saied nothing to proue your selues good trees And on the contrary euen by this your owne saying if we can proue our religion to be the sound Christian faith taught indeede by Christ and his Apostles and therefore that neuer since hell gates could preuaile against it which we doubt not of whensoeuer you will enter into this controuersie with vs then for all your saying here to the contrary Christes sentence shall giue vs very good aduantage Thus hauing shewed your cunning in restraining and collecting of this prouerbe of Christ as I haue now as one that after some wresting found it stronger for you then you would haue thought you graunt it to be most true the naturallie a good tree bringeth forth good fruit not bad at all and a crab-tree nothing but crabs And this you labour to proue first by certaine testimonies of S. Iohn affirming that he that is borne of God sinneth not then by other places as Iohn 8. Sap. 1.1 Cor. 10. you confirme that doctrine of S. Iohn lastly by a similitude shewing that as the rottennes wormeatennes or any such fault in the fruite of a good tree letteth not but that still naturally that tree may be saied to beare good fruit because these things fall out by some accident vnnaturall to the tree euen so the good tree alwaies as it is a good tree bringeth forth naturally good fruit Here in effect you let go and giue ouer the former restraining of Christs words and recant that you saied before the aâ—il tree as the philosophers may bring forth good fruit a good tree as a Catholique in Religion by whom you meane a Papist may bring forth ill fruits and will you nill you you are enforced to confesse that Christes wordes are generally true simply therefore alwaies verified of both good trees and bad trees as they are naturally considered But yet you adde the tree is knowen by his fruit and faith by workes so as then the fruit bee ripe in due season not otherwise Wherein I take your meaning to be that not euery shew of fruites nor vnripe works but works indeede good both in matter and maner of doing are the fruits whereby a good tree iustifying faith is discerned You yet proceede and say that as a rotten and wormeaten apple hanging vpon a good tree seeing that came not thorow the nature of the tree but by meanes of wormes birdes or some other such accident ministreth not a sufficient argument to proue that tree to be an ill tree so the ill workes of Christians ought not to staine their holy Catholique religioÌ„ For the corruption of their fruits commeth not from the nature of these religion which forbiddeth such fruits or workes but from themselues In all this vnderstanding not as you doe but as you should the holie Catholique Religion indeede which yours will neuer proue we ioyne with you and allow what you haue saied And as you supposing your religion to be the holy Catholique religion haue thus answered the obiection drawen from the good workes of professours of our religion and from the bad workes of yours so euen in the same words and maner supposing our religioÌ„ not yours to be that true holy religioÌ„ your obiection against vs grounded vpon the good workes of some of yours lewde liues of some that yet professe ours is also answered For we tel you as you seeme here to tel vs that your works are not ripe works such as good works should be both in matter and maner and therefore no argument more of the goodnes of your religion then the Philosophers works were of the goodnes of theirs that the ill works fouÌ„d in some of our professours ought not to steine our religioÌ„ forasmuch as none of them are iustified but condemned by the same But in the vttering of these things you haue vttered diuers things whereof it is needful to admonish both you and your Reader First in examining S. Iohns words you seeme simply to vnderstand that by being borne of God hee meant nothing else but being baptized as though they were both one or at least so inseparably coÌ„ioined that whosoeuer were outwardly baptized were certainely forthwith thereby inwardly regenerated and new borne wherein you and al that ioyne with you therein shew both great errour and ignorance in the doctrine of that sacrament For though by that sacrament al that haue receiued it are sacramentally new borne and receiued into Christs Church and therein haue had the washing away of their sinnes in the bloud of Christ represented vnto them offered vnto them and sealed and ratified on Gods behalfe to belong vnto them if they inwardly also will imbrace it yet to confound the sacrament of regeneration and the washing away of our sinnes with regeneration and remission of sinnes it selfe or to tye the later so vnto the former as that of necessity whosoeuer is partaker of the former is also partaker of the later is against all good diuinity Scripture and experience For diuinity admitteth not a confounding of the outward signe with the inward grace in a sacrament the scripture experience withall teacheth vs the SimoÌ„ Magus was baptised and yet no sounde diuine euer helde that forthwith thereby he was inwardly regenerated for by his fruites the contrary by and by euidently appeared Act. 8. Againe if outwardly to be baptised were by by to be regenerated then al that haue beene baptised haue beene inwardly regenerated all that are baptised once must needs be so which thing if it were so why how coÌ„meth it to passe that many neuer shew any fruites of regeneration and die giuing plaine euidence that they were neuer borne anew notwithstanding they were baptised and that there is no more hast made to baptise Turkes Iewes and whomsoeuer we can come by But it seemeth that as you holde this errour of baptisme that to defend it withall you are of opinion that a man once may be truely regenerated and so the childe of God iustified and sanctified in the bloud of Christ through grace and yet
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
thinking so well of your selues as you doe should not teach vs by your often example to doe that which if we doe but once you count an heinous offence in vs. You would haue the best to reforme the rest if your request were graunted you must amend apace or else there will none of you be found in that degree You are angrie with vs for speaking as wee vse to doe against your Popes and bishops and for that in the mean time we giue our selues glorious titles of Apostles Euangelists Prophets c passing ouer the faults of our owne Whereunto most truely I may answere that so infinite and monstrous haue beene the sinnes and abhominations of these your Popes and other prelates for this long time that it is impossible for vs all euer sufficiently to paint out the filthinesse of them and as for our passing ouer in the meane time the faultes of our owne though indeede we neuer deny but that there are faultes amongst our owne for they are men and indeed for all your saying we are the first censurers of our selues oftentimes for those faults what reason is there that you should require at our handes that we should neuer tell you of your faults but that we must withal lay open our owne When this is your fashion we will learne to imitate you and concerning titles which you say we so gloriously set out our ministers withall they are yet but titles by Christ in his expresse word left vnto his Church and of them some we cōfesse were extraordinary and but for a time as Apostles Prophets and Euangelists of whom onely we glory in this that our doctrine is the same that they left vs in writing the other titles of bishops pastors doctors as fit for the true ministers of the Gospel we take vnto vs therw t are we content So that you rather haue aduaunced your Clergie with glorious and vaine titles thē we in that of your own heads not thinking the titles that Christ hath left vs glorious inough you haue your Popes Cardinals and diuers other such strange and swelling names of pride and vanity Yet it grieueth you as it seemeth most that some of vs now and then tearme your Popes and bishoppes rauening deuouring wolues some labour therfore you bestow in amplifying a similitude to proue them no wolues but hirelings and bad shepheards that many of them haue beene a great while yea that their sinnes haue bene the cause of our prospering and preuailing as we haue you will not deny vs. It is wel that the euidence of the trueth and the force thereof hath preuailed thus far with you to cause you to graunt vs thus much I feare me if a number of your Prelates and Popes should come to the reading of this you should haue smal thanke of them for yeelding thus farre Well then hirelings they are and haue beene but too much and too long by your owne confession therefore as you tell them the iudgement of God denoūced against thē Eze. 3 33 is that that they may make their accoūt of which beeing so I cannot see how their veriest enemies should wish them to be worse yet let vs see what reason you haue to proue that they may not bee rightly called wolues Your reason is because in the phrase of the Scripture you thinke there must needs be betwixt an hireling and a woulfe spoken of therein the same difference that is betwixt a naughty carelesse and a negligent shepheard and the woulfe that commeth in the meane time to pray of his flocke whereupon the hireling with you is as the sheephearde but careles and negligent in looking to his sheepe the woulfe is as the heretick and false teacher that cōmeth whiles the other is negligent driues the sheepe from the folde deuours them But you know that similitudes are not to be streatched further then they are brought in vsed for that notwithstanding seeing you your selfe cōfesse that the hereticke is the woulfe we shal well inough maintaine our calling of your Popes and Bishops wolues I warrant you For that is the thing especially that wee stood vpon with you and we desire nothing more thē that you would come once to the sound triall of that point by the Canonicall scriptures whither you and they haue not beene most daungerous heretiques Heresie we account any opinion conceiued helde and stubburnly defended contrary to the sound grounds of diuinity set downe vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures And your Religion to stand consist of a great number of such we are alwaies most ready to proue It is not your saying that your Religion is ancient and receiued and taught alwaies in the Church of God from Christ to this day nor your bragging that we cānot deny it as you doe here again in the later ende of this Chapter and haue often heretofore that will serue the turne in this case for I haue diuerse times heretofore proued the contrarie This is flat euery one seeth it you can hide it no longer that if your Religion be so in deede as you say then you dare bring it vnto this touchstone of the scripture and it wil abide it otherwise that whatsoeuer you say to countenance it with your wordes or with the names and titles of ancient fathers and doctours that in deede and trueth it is not as you pretend I haue meetly well already shewed the opposition and contrariety betwixt your doctrine that taught in the Scriptures cap. 29. and elsewhere and yet were it an easie matter to lead on the reader to a number of such grosse contrarieties more betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Bishops for a long time and that which is taught there For it teacheth that God worketh euen in the regenerat both to will to performe euen of his owne good pleasure Phil. 2.13 and you contrariwise teach in your doctrine of free will That teacheth vs flatly that as there is but one God so ther is but one mediatour betwixt God mā the man Christ Iesus 1. Timot. 2. and you set vs vp a number of mediatours aduocates of saints and Angels besides him There we are taught that no man can lay any other foundatiō then that which is already laied Christ Iesus 1. Cor. 3.11 and your church hath laied Peter for the foundation of the church And in this scripture we are taught to worship the lord God him only to serue Deut. 6. and namely the seruice of praier beeing one of the highest and diuinest pointes of seruice that wee are to yeelde vnto him there we are taught by commandement promisse and example only to doe vnto him and you come and teach vs to worship to serue euen with diuine honour and namely with this of praier not onely saints Angels but also their reliques shrines and images What should I say more your owne consciences tell you that you haue nothing in the world
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
they left in writtng by the ordinance of God to confute such heretiques as you are The XXXVII Chapter AT last it seemeth by your paines taken in this Chapter you be thought your selfe that forasmuch as hitherto onelie in bare and naked wordes you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion that it was needefull for you euē for shame before you made a full end of your booke to yeeld vs some reasons and grounds or at least some shew colour of your so lewd and bold boasting And therefore here now at last to that ende you haue mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers very prouidently leauing your Readers to the examining of your quotations amōgst whom not one of an hundreth you knew either for lacke of skill or will leasure or bookes could and would turne to the places in the authours themselues You thought belike your credit to bee such that they must needes beleeue that you cite thē truely and faithfully and that because you so roundly haue huddled them togither that therefore also out of all question they spake and wrotefully for you in the points you alleadge them for What smal cause there is either for you to looke thus to bee trusted or for any to yeelde you such credit herein wee shall see anone when wee come to the examining of your quotations In the meane time what ment you by this thus onely when all commeth to al to countenance these 4 points your Ceremonies in baptisme confession before the sacrament praiers to the Saints departed and praier for the dead Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question Or doeth it especially depend vpon these 4 and the coūtenancing of these Or was your prouision ready for no more that but once in all your booke you seeming to set downe the authorities whereupon you ground your religion you would take the paines to go no further then to these 4 points Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse your selfe and say that you would haue gone likewise on to confirme the rest but for being tedious to your reader Truely he is much beholden to you for your discreet kindnes towards him that haue not spared to be tedious vnto him in al the rest of your book in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags of the antiquity and catholikenes of al your religion as you haue and with many needles and friuolous long discourses besides and now when you came to the point indeed which of all other was most materiall and wherein both for his satisfaction and your owne credit it stood you vpon most to enlarge your selfe then thus to shift him of with as good as nothing bearing him yet in hand that but for his ease you both could and would haue saied inough This is a common tricke amongst you thus to cozen and abuse your simple readers to weary them with things needles and then to slip ouer with some such shift as this matters most needful Wel concerning that which either you haue saied here for these 4 points or that which after you pretend if you had list you could haue easily saied for the rest this I would haue the reader diligently to note and marke that but for two places vainely alleaged to proue your confession that you neither haue alleaged any testimony of scripture at all for the proofe of these nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest Which argueth that euen in your owne conscience the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath either in these points or in the rest is but from earth and not from heauen from men and not from the holy ghost For if you had beene able with any good colour to haue coūtenāced either these points or any of the rest out of Gods owne booke and writen word the reader may think that neither your zeale to your religion nor yet your boasting spirit which hitherto hath shewed it selfe ouerflowing in you either would or could haue suffered you thus much to the preiudice your whole cause cleane to haue forgotten so much as once to go about it But to say the trueth seeing it is confessed by your betters not onely that this but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religiō which we striue with you for are grounded but vpon tradition as I haue shewed out of Soto against Brentius Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechisme and Lyndans 100. Chapter of the fifth booke of his panoply before you are the honester man and the more a great deale to be liked for your thus secretly confessing the same with them Now yet by this the Reader may plainely vnderstand what hath indeede beene the reason why in all your booke hitherto you haue laboured so much as you haue to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctours and withall haue spent so much time in diswading the appealing to the Scriptures for the ending of the controuersies betwixt vs. You were wise enough it seemeth to see where your strength lay and from whēce would rise your bane and therefore who can blame you for leaning as you doe altogither to the one and shunning the other But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more diuinity but humanity no more Theologie but patrologie and plainely confesse indeede from whence you haue all your figge leaues rags and clouts to couer your shame and nakednes Truely these you haue whatsoeuer in this respect you pretend not from the right and sound Apostolique tradition which alwaies was either expressed in Scripture or at least cōsonant vnto it nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly vnderstood and when they taught as it was of themselues acknowledged to be their duties with sound warrant from the scriptures as I haue sundry times shewed already but onely from forged or corrupt tradition and from the fathers either misunderstood or erring as men So that vnwriten verities or rather forgeries sentences of fathers mistaken or their verie errours whereof they would haue beene ashamed if they had had the meanes to helpe them to see them that you haue are the groundes pillers and bewties of your church and Religion And this we are alwaies ready to iustifie against you before the whole world by sound and inuincible proofe out of the vn doubted word of God interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it that the holy and ancient fathers themselues haue followed in confuting all heretiques in their times by and which they haue likewise commended to others alwaies to be obserued and out of the vndoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers them selues Wee are therefore verie well content to liue and die in that Church and Religion which we are sure we are able thus to iustifie and we enuy not you but rather heartely lament and pittie you that yours hath no better grounde then it hath But to
wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie
beutified with most execrable and filthy pictures to set out that sinne withall And Petrus Aloysius notwithstanding that most moÌ„strous and impudent Sodomitry of his committed by force in the sight of his men as both Vergerius Sleidan report out of certaine Italian stories vpon the body of Cosmuscherius bishop of Fane a man then of 30. yeares olde at the least was deare and highly esteemed in the eies of his filthy adulterous and incestuous father Pope Paulus the third And for the other point touching Beza his wife certaine it is that she was an honest woman of good report when he maried her and since alwaies Christianity hath behaued her selfe as becommed an honest matronâ— for any thing that I euer could either heare or reade worthy of any credit to the contrary And who but they that haue made a shipwracke of all shame honesty would euer haue broched such a monstrous vntrueth as this that he ranne away with her shee being an other mans wife to Geneua her husband yet liuing Beza himselfe in that preface that I named last of his protesteth not onely the falshood of this but saieth further that if any mortall creature can iustlie touch him with the least and lightest suspition of adultery hee refuseth no seate of iudgement And if there were any ground of trueth â—n this is it likely that this matter would neuer haue bene prosecuted against him in no court of France or elswher he hauing so many enemies Nay we may be sure that if there had beene any trueth either in this or in any such thing now saied against him hee had heard of it at Poysy One Papist as Parsons a father Iesuite telling the tale saieth shee dwelt in Kalender streete and Frarin an other in his railing oration saieth shee dwelt in Harpe streete if Daniel were aliue and sate in iudgement these fellowes agreeing no better then the two wicked iudges did in their accusing of Susanna were like to haue and well worthy were they the iudgement that those two wicked iudges had But in the meane time with patience we must possesse our soules committing our cause to God who one day wil be auenged of such lying and flaunderous tongues and that neuer looking for other but that the Deuill as he hath beene a lier from the beginning and a false accuser of Gods seruants so he will continue and shewe himselfe in his instruments vnto the worlds ende Though you haue no other grouÌ„d but the report of an enemy which he gaue forth vpon the report of most malicious persons and otherwise diuers waies infamous for all this your diuelish slaunder of Beza which euidence you knew well enough is starke naught you yet proceede to your conclusion that he was such a man yea that thereby wee may see that the principall pillers of our Church are bawdes thieues and adulterers as confidently as if your euidence had beene most strong Wherein your fault is not onely that your argument holdeth not taken from no better grounds against the particuler man himselfe but that also you reason from the fault of one to all the chiefe pillars of our Church and so you put a great deale more in your conclusion then was in the premisses which in reasoning is an intollerable fault And if a man should reason in like maner Pope Iohn the 12. was an adulterer Iohn the 13. was slain coÌ„mitting it Iohn the 18. put to death both his eies put out by the means of Gregorie about it pope Clement the 6. caused to be poisoned as soÌ„e write Lodouick the Emperor Siluester the secoÌ„d was a notable coniurer Vrbanus drowned fiue of his dearest Cardinals though your owne Cronicles testifie these therfore al your Popes the verie heades of your church were such would you allow of such an argument I am sure you would not yet hath it an 100. times better ground and reason in it then yours As yet therefore for any thing you haue saied the beame is in your owne eies and so you are not fit persons to go about to get the moate out of ours before you haue cleansed your owne better The XLII Chapter YOV that can saie so well that one ought to liue according to the scripture and that you will by it reforme vs why doe yee not beginne with your selues to giue vs the a We doeâ— yet when we haue done what we can there wil be some amongst vs whom you may too iustly charge with these and other sins because alwaies there will be some hypocrites and time-seruers but seeing we doe by our religion coÌ„demne such vsages those that embrace our religioÌ„ in sincerity condemne these sins and absteine from them neither we nor our religion are to be charged with them better example FroÌ„ whence come so many kinde of vsuries excessiue interests as you doe vse You call our church abhominable and adulterous He that is among you without sinne let him cast the first stone You doe abhorre our idols as you tearme them talking of our images how commeth it to passe then that some of yours should come so neare vs that are Idolaters as to robbe our Churches and to carie awaie the images and reliques and to go and sell them in other places But now to make an ende of this discourse although it vvere so that your works were the best of the world yea whollie without spot or sin as some of b If any so affirm we renounce them they are none of vs. you doe affirme yet vvere not they sufficient to moue vs to change our Religion nor to forsake that that our forefathers haue taught vs for although it be so that our sauiour Christ was as iust and as innoceÌ„t as anie caÌ„ be hath beene or euer shall be yet neither his holie life nor the Scriptures that he did alleadge to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophets nor the testimonie of S. Iohn Baptist all these things togither were not sufficient to perswade the Iewes to forsake their old lawes and to receaue the Gospell without the testimonie of the great c Neither would they beleeue when hee had wrought his miracles no more would you if we should miracles that he did in their presence He doeth confesse this plainly where hee saieth if d Ioh. 15. And so he saith if I had not spoken vnto theÌ„ they should not haue had sin but now they haue no cloake for their sin v. 22. I had not done in their presence the works and miracles that neuer any had done they should haue no sinne This sentence is most notable and worthy to bee grauen in the hearts of all Catholiques to assure their conscieÌ„ces which are troubled with such diuersitie of opinioÌ„s For although it were so that you my masters were the honestest men of the worlde sent from God to teach and preach a true doctrine yet should we be excusable before God for not receauing of your commission euen
as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ e It was expresly prophecied that whē the Messias should come he should worke such works and therefore it was necessary that he should work them and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men the like is not prophecied that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies therfore this is required at our hands without all reason And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse thē Christ if he had not done so manie miracles For we know no cause why you should be more priuiledged then Christ And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles that your liues are at the least as ill as ours f Thus to threatē you we may boldly without shame because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures to be the same that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discords and diuisions that one maie easilie gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde And as g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine shall finde the Manichees to whom he speaketh farre like◠you then vs. S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie if that be found with you it is more worth then al the rest and that you would be contented to try that by the scriptures as he was and then you would sure so many of you as haue any grace quickly ioyne with vs. I saie no more at this time but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken The XLII Chapter THere is no question of that but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe and the Lord giue both vs and you grace effectually so to doe But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne you know well enough that then they must neuer doe it For what company and society of men euer was there but therein was some bad as well as good As Adam had an Abel so had he a Caine. There was an Ismael as well as an Isaac in Abrahams house And Isaac had an Esau as well as a Iacob Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom one that looked backe And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas Yea Christ hath taught vs by the parable of the good seede and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies of bad with good But you charge vs further that amongst vs there are many kinde of vsuries and interests and that though one way we care not for your images yet we loue them so well an other way that we haue robbed your churches of them Whereunto my answere is that we cānot deny but there are too many amongst vs who by such vnlawfull meanes seeke to enrich thēselues and that there are too too many profane and carnall men that haue our religiō in their mouthes who by their lewd conuersation dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ we are most hartely sory for it and dayly pray vnto God for amendmēt thereof But this we must tell you that we preach against al sinne impiety whatsoeuer and namely against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of And our Religion and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing therefore we are wronged that in these things we generally or our religiō at al should be charged Surely many of our vsurers extreame dealing men amongst vs are either men of no Religion or yours rather then ours neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit that in those common weales vsury lieth dead and buried Sure I am your Popes haue beene for a long time the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world in that they haue sold their palles their lead and other their hallowed ware which are indeede trifles and thinges of no valewe for such summes of money and gold as they haue You flatly slaunder vs in saying that there are some of vs that affirme we are wholy without spot or sinne For we both detest that opinion and count them that should holde so euen worthy to be detested for their so holding Yet you say if it were so that ought not to moue you to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers What a sound ground of Religion forefathers without distinction is I haue shewed sufficiently already In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne to distinguish betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers the Apostles and their successours in doctrine and life in the primitiue church and the later forefathers and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further then they haue followed the former and then the danger of this dart is auoided And that it is reason we should follow them no further we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ But you haue a further reason not to be moued from your Religion for our life were it neuer so Godly because Christ though he was without sin and confirmed his doctrine both by the anciēt scriptures and Iohn Baptists testimony yet he saied that if he had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer mā did before him they had had no sinne Iohn 15.24 For hereof you gather that you may securely whatsoeuer we say vnto you or howsoeuer we liue refuse vs and our Religion and continue in your owne still as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles For you know no cause you say why we should be more priuiledged then Christ This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it Where I haue shewed you amōgst diuers other reasons that there was this especiall reasō that Christ should worke such miracles as he did to proue himselfe the Messias because expressely the Prophets had prophecied that he so should when he came which reason you cannot shew why now wee should work miracles For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess 2.
and by Iohn Reuel 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon shew onely that the Lorde would doe it by the spirit of his mouth in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell That therefore is it onely that we are to approue our selues by to be the men that the Lorde will vse to that purpose And yet herein we take not vpon vs greater priuiledge then Christ For we accoūt that an especiall priuiledge of his that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles as that after the confirmation of it so by him his Apostles and the recording of it in the new Testament as it is it should thenceforth stand so firme that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity amongst them especially that pretend they reuerence and receaue the scriptures as you would seeme to doe euer to require miracles more to confirme the same doctrine by You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise yet you shal be at the least without blame for your not receiuing of ours because we work no miracles Deceiue not your selues It is not with you now in respect of vs and our doctrine as it was then with the Iewes in respect of him and his Then that he was the particuler person of the Messias that therefore he being come the ceremonies of Moses law should cease and giue place to his sacraments c was a thing to be proued that by miracles because it was before prophecied whereas now those things long ago haue beene sufficiently confirmed and therefore we preaching vnto you no other doctrine but that so already confirmed and requiring no further to be credited then we can so proue our doctrine especially seeing the prophecies cōcerning these later daies shew rather y◠Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come and seeke to preuaile by miracles then the Lords faithful pastours you haue no such reason as they had nor indeed any at all to require miracles at our hands But you say vnto vs as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees contra epist Fundam cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio with you there is no other sound but promise that you haue the truth Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow and you are answered For he addeth which yet if you can make appeare is so cleare of your side that it may not be doubted of is to be preferred before all those things that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church Be you of this minde once with Augustine and then learne this one other lesson of him do vnitate ecclesiae contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari I will not haue demonstration made of the church by humane documents but by the diuine oracles And so say vnto vs as he saied there vnto Petilian let vs seeke the Church and so discusse our cause by the scriptures beholde they are common vnto vs both beholde there we haue knowen Christ beholde there we haue knowen the church c. Take this course once with vs and I doubt not whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary but we shall thereby be able to iustifie both our vocation and Religion and to make it appeare that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth with you and the Manichees but the very trueth it selfe And this being proued thē you must yeelde with Augustine that it is to be preferred before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer that haue kept you hitherto in an other Religion and church yea then you must confesse notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs of nouelty paucity iars in opinion and whatsoeuer else yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs in receauing of this trueth Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go and enter once into this question with vs in earnest whether your Religion or ours be the trueth and for the triall thereof will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them colour your refusing thus to doe with what colours possibly you can you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause and euidently shewe that you onely seeke shifts hoales and corners to escape as long as you may the discredit therof And your owne frends will they nill they shal be inforced to see the same You conclude with prayer that we may drawe as neare you as we are farre from you and that we may turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your hurt and our owne you say we haue forsaken Insteede of Amen to yours I beseech the Lord of all mercies and father of our Lord Iesus Christ that it would please him of his infinit goodnes and mercy euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake to open the eies of your mindes and so to touch your hearts as that you may haue grace with vs to come out of Babylon and to leaue that garish whore of Rome with all her abhominations and so to ioyne with vs in the true communion of Saints and fellowship of the trueth and spirit that both you and we may dwell togither as brethren in one house agree and growe togither as members of one body rest togither as sheepe of one flocke vnder one father God almighty vnder one head shepheard Christ Iesus through the mighty working of the holy Ghost to Gods glory and our owne euerlasting comfort Amen FINIS A short answere to a new offer not published at the first when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands whereunto it is now annexed the ground and matter whereof is an enumeration of six certaine and assured signes and tokens as the offerer calleth them of Antichristians false prophets heretiques and schismatiques mentioned in diuerse places of the scripture COncerning these sixe signes welbeloued this is his offer that if by the learned protestāt they can be proued more aptly and truely to agree to him his fellowes of the commō knowen catholick church of Christ thē vnto the protestāts of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations that then he wil submit yeelde recant and not before Learned protestant I take my selfe to be none howbeit finding as I did when I tooke first in hand to answer Iohn de Albines former discourse that the publisher thereof had therewithall published not only the offer of a proud papist to a learned protestant cōsisting of 22. challenges or demaunds long ago answered by the men aboue named but also with this new addition of these six signes and then not vnderstanding though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgst vs in English that any learned or vnlearned had vouchsafed to answer it though I thought it needles to answer againe the offer of 22. demaunds so wel answered by the foresaied mē before that the authour thereof neuer since had pleasure to reply I thought it yet
defy detest theÌ„ their frantick opinions as much as any and of all men we haue beene the forwardest in writing against them And therefore they doe vs the more wrong when at any time they aggrauate this obiection against vs by charging vs to haue such amongst vs whom thus we shunne and mislike aswell as they Thus much therfore let suffice for answere to this fourth signe and now let vs proceede to the next The next is not to obey but resist the Prelates of the Church which hee would proue so to bee by Pauls saying 2. Tim. 3. like as Iannes and â—ambres resisted Moses so doe these resist the trueth being men of corrupt mindes reprobates in faith of which fault when the learned protestant can proue them guilty and vs cleare he promiseth to recant It seemeth the man in alleadging this text did trust his memory too much for twise he hath writen MaÌ„bres for IaÌ„bres but if that were all his fault here it were a small matter But here againe according to his old woont he must haue it freely giueÌ„ and granted him for he bringeth nothing at all to proue it that their Bishops and Prelates are all such as Moses Paul was that is faithfull in teaching only Gods people the truth For vnles this be yeelded him it neither may be granted him that he rightly applieth his text nor this signe against vs. But he knoweth well enough and so doe all the packe of theÌ„ that we are so far from being so prodigall in our gifts vnto them that we hold their prelates bishops Priests to be very IaÌ„nes Iambres in resisting our Bishops and ministers in teaching the same truth that they haue learned of Moses Paul and that therefore we thinke no better of them then of men of corrupt mindes reprobate in the faith For which cause we are sure we both may and ought to disobey them and resist them as we doe For so we finde that Esay Hieremy Amos Michaiah Christ and his Apostles in their times refused to obey and resisted the false doctrine of the false Prophets and high Priests that theÌ„ were What a vanity is it therefore in this man to trouble his reader with such colde and poore stuffe as this is And truely hee hath no better happe in the last then in any of the former For setting it downe that ficklenesse and slipperinesse of errours and heresies is a signe and sure token to bewray the authors thereof and that the catholique faith or trueth is likewise to be knowen by the constant stability thereof he saieth that which we grant to be very true as willingly as he or any of his side Insomuch that coÌ„monly it is one of the principall reasons that we vse to proue their opinions that we striue against them for to be errours or heresies theÌ„selues for now holding them so obstinatly as they doe heretiques for that we are able to shew how by stealing and soft paces stily they began first to creepe in and so went on froÌ„ worse to worse vntill to vse his owne tearme they came ad prosuÌ„dum maloruÌ„ that is euen to the depth of all euill that they are now growen vnto therein Who so readeth my answere to Albines publishers preface and the 37. Chapter of my answere to Albine himselfe shall finde that in a good sort of their opinions I haue shewed this But to proue this that it is the property of heretiques to be fickle and mouing and so soone to perish passe away he alleadgeth S. Peter saying that lying masters doe bring vpoÌ„ theÌ„selues swift daÌ„nation their destruction sleepeth not which he spake of gods iudgements yâ— vndoubtedly should ouertake such meÌ„ not as he vnderstandeth him to shew that their opinions alwaies should soone passe away and vanish In the former sence it is alwaies fouÌ„d true that S. Peter writeth either here or els where or both but take it in the later sence then Peter shall often be found to haue prophecied of such vntruly For who knoweth not that the grosse errours of Turcism are of very long continuance that the errour of the Aethiopians for circumcision is far more ancients and that yet it continueth And must not of necessity the errours and heresies of Antichrist be of very long continuance seeing Paul as we haue heard confesseth that the mystery of that iniquity beganne to worken in his time aboue 1500. years ago and that it should not quite be abolished before Christs second comming who then should yet by the brightnesse of his comming abolish it 2. Thess 2 The trueth of whose prophecy in that place is the very true ground of the antiquity vniuersality and continuance of the popish and Antichristian Religion So that howsoeuer it hath fallen out in some heresies that they haue in Gods most wise prouidence euen quickely brought themselues to an ende by their ficklenes moouing yet it appeareth in that place the sinne of not beleeuing the trueth so notably taught and confirmed by Christ and his Apostles in the iust iudgement of God by Antichristianity is so seuerely to be punished that therewith euen from the Apostles daies to the ende of the worlde they that commit that sinne shall bee in danger to bee deluded and seduced most dangerously Which I say and sure I am I can proue it hath beene and yet is most notoriously verifyed by popery to the wonderfull hurt and destruction of soules Howbeit this man would faine apply this signe vnto vs for that amongst vs as it pleaseth him to write here in England for the loue we beare to the doctrine of the Zwinglians Oecolampadians and Caluinists the Lutherans haue takeÌ„ their iust ouerthrow and for that now here Precisians and Puritans as he saith through the affection of the common people and so winking at them by some magestrates haue brought the Zwinglians and Caluinists to be ready to yeeld vp the ghost and to tilt vp their heeles But these are but vaine words and proue not his purpose For all these howsoeuer in other matters of lesser moment they too much disagree yet as I haue saied before and as it is notoriously knowen for the principall articles of religion coÌ„cerning faith or maners they are in constant vnity holding the same all of them that they haue learned in these points out of the Canonical scriptures as the harmony of their confessions extant to the world in print make it euident As for the seuerall and priuate opinions of Luther and his too earnest followers which we now mislike we haue likewise alwaies misliked and therefore in that respect they haue no other ouerthrow amongst vs then they alwaies since we first heard of them haue had and howsoeuer in these points we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins iudgement then theirs yet certaine it is that we build not our faith of them nor of them or by them delight we to be called we protest and professe our selues
to be christians and of him onely and of his vndoubted spirit speaking vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures haue we learned our religion with which as far as we finde any man to agree we reuerence him as it becommeth vs in the Lord further we take not our selues bound to follow any man whatsoeuer he be That Puritans and Precisians haue brought the ancient Protestants of this land of all sortes to any such point by any such meanes as he speaketh of he speaketh both vntruely and slanderously For such as for their preposterous zeale and factious turbulent spirits amongst vs deserue so to be called and accounted neither are for number so many nor for credit so affected of the common people nor wincked at of the magestrats as he pretendeth But if ther were as many fond sectaries that haue arisen vp amongst vs these late yeares as this man and other of his fellowes sometime would haue men to beleeue as long yet as we for all that continue constant not onely in the very same religion that we were of when we first broke of from them but also in that which hath plentifull and most playne warrant both from the canonicall scriptures and al sound antiquity as we haue a thousand times shewed and yet still are willing and ready alwaies to doe why should they thus odiously be obiected against vs to disgrace either vs or our religion especially seeing wee are sory for it and shew our mislike thereof as wee doe May any man iustly disgrace the Apostles and the Apostolique churches for that euen in their times there arose so many sectaries and heretiques amongst the Churches planted by them as both by their owne writings and other Ecclesiasticall histories it is notoriously knowen there did Hath not Christ euen of purpose to preuent all offence taking hereat compared his kingdome Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good seeds-man hauing sowen good wheat the enuious man so soweth his tares that they come vp togither with the wheat and so will doe vnto the haruest To let vaine words and brags go let thē proue but once any of them or all of them togither either that their religion is the plaine way of saluation beaten by our forefathers for these 1500. yeares past or that ours is not that very trueth that Christ and his Apostles taught as a perpetual trueth for the true church constantly to hold to the worlds end and we will striue with them no lōger But as this is a matter too hard heauy for them so they are content to let it alone and with fallacies vaine words to trie if they can beguile the simple people and bring them to a misliking of that which to mislike indeede they are not able to giue them one sound reason And therefore to conclude that both beginning ending and alwaies this mā may be like himselfe he taketh it for graunted that their religion is the sound catholique faith that the martyr Sebastian meant by his loafe which broken and broken againe after it was once well made and baked by sectaries heretiques as he told Genserichus the tyrant would neuer become better and that ours is but a breaking of it to make it better againe which will neuer be Whereas we constantly hold affirme that we may iustly say to all papists euen as Sebastian saied to that tyrant For the loafe that we feed on and would haue all others to feed on with vs we are able to proue is that the graine whereof Christ himselfe by his faithfull seruants hath sowen in the sound field of the canonical scriptures which he himselfe hath ground kneaden baked for vs and for all his children And likewise we are able to proue that this fine white loafe of the Lords own preparing alwaies lying ready in the storehouse of his writen word the Romish church hath a long time doth stil as much loath as euer the children of Israel did Manna And therefore as they preferred in their conceits garlicke leekes onions the flesh-pots of Egypt before that heauēly food so hath she and doeth she a massiue loafe the corne whereof must not come onely out of the foresaied field of the Lord for then it would haue no fauour with them but in great part out of the rotten field of mens traditions inuentions before the pure white loafe of the lords own making Wherefore to conclude all his speech or exhortation groūded vpon this story out of Victor de persecutione Vandalorum any man may see we might farre more iustly vse against thēselues of the Romish Church to persuade them as they regard their owne saluation c. to content themselues with vs with this Sebastians loafe of the first and best making I haue thus thou seest good reader but briefly past ouer these things and the rather I haue so done first because I found no matter in them but grounded vpon shameles begging of that which is most in question and secondly because in my answere to Albine I had vpon occasion giuen me by him already answered al or most of his assumptions against vs in the applying of these signes vnto vs. But lastly by view of an answere made at large by master Crowley both to the 22. demaunds and these six signes also that came to my hands since my finishing of this answere of mine I see if it had beene vndone I might well haue spared al my labour herein If therefore thou desirest any further answer concerning any of these I refer thee to him And thus I take my leaue of thee beseeching the Lord now and euer to blesse both thee and me and heartily praying thee to remember me alwaies in thy godly prayers to God to whom be all glory praise and dominion now and euer Thine in the Lord Thomas Sparke A Table whereby readily to finde out the principal matters contained in the former answere to Albine or any of his fauourers wherein because vntill thou commest to the answere to Albine himselfe the pages are not figured in the top as in the rest for any thing before handled the page of the letter in the bottome of those leaues whereof there are 16 for euery letter is noted for thy direction A. Abbeyes why and how suppressed pa. 287. Albine conuicted of blasphemy p. 95. 96. 186. 375. 378. Albine sheweth himselfe to haue beene of a profane spirit 269. Albines publishers methode in his epistle to the reader discouered b. p. 11. 12. 13. Albines owne methode and the folly thereof laied open E. 4 5. 6 Albines cunning in running from the question 6 7 9. 10. 11. c. Albine notorious in abusing scriptures 2. 3. 36. 37. Albine worthy to be famous for abusing of fathers 47. 51. 85. 86. 119. c. 126. c. 131 134 156. ca p. 37. through out Antiquity protestants rather haue then papists and true antiquity protestants stand vnto 102. 158. c. Auricular confession dangerous E. p.
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34