Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	article_n	church_n	true_a	3,598	5	5.1162	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A52063	A vindication of the answer to the humble remonstrance from the unjust imputation of frivolousnesse and falshood Wherein, the cause of liturgy and episcopacy is further debated. By the same Smectymnuus.	Smectymnuus.; Marshall, Stephen, 1594?-1655. aut; Calamy, Edmund, 1600-1666. aut; Young, Thomas, 1587-1655. aut; Newcomen, Matthew, 1610?-1669. aut; Spurstowe, William, 1605?-1666. aut	1654 (1654)	Wing M799; ESTC R217369	134,306	232

purpose to bring the Papist to our Churches which wee finde to bee with so little successe c. In answer to which the Remonstrant first commends the project as charitable and gracious The nature of the project wee never intended to dispute onely wee produced this to shew that there was not the same reason for the retaining of this forme that there was for the first introducing of it because experience tels us it hath not prevailed to that end to which it was at first designed Yes it did saith the Remonstrant for Sir Edward Coke tels us till the eleventh yeere of Queene Elizabeth all came to Church those times knew no recusant Pardon us Sir If we tell you that it was not the converting power of the Liturgie but the constraining power of the Law that brought them thither which afterwards not being pressed with that life and vigour that it had bin gave incouragemēt to the Popish fact ō to take heart adde also that at the same time the Pope negotiated to have her Liturgie to be allowed by his authority so as the Queene would acknowledge his Supremacie which when it grew hopelesse then the Jesuitish Casuists begun to draw on the Papists to a Recusancie But might the complying of our Papists be attributed soly to the inoffensivenesse of our Liturgie Yet what credit is this to our Church to have such a forme of publike worship as Papists may without offence joyne with us in and yet their Popish principles live in their hearts still How shall that reclayme an erring soule that brings their bodies to Church leaves their hearts stil in error And wheras the Remonstrant would impute the not winning of Papists rather to the want or weaknesse in preaching Be it so in the mean time let the Bishops see how they will cleere their souls of this sinne who having the sole power of admitting Ministers into the Church have admitted so many weak ones and have rejected so many faithfull able Preachers for not conforming to their beggerly rudiments And when we said that this our Liturgie hath lost us many rather then wonne any Wee meant not onely of such as are lost to the Popish part But let the Remonstrant take it so it is neither paradox nor slander For let an acute Jesuite have but this argument to weild against a Protestant not well grounded in our Religion as too many such there are in England It is evident that the Church of Rome is the ancient and true Church and not yours for you see your Service is wholly taken out of ours How would a weake Christian expedite himselfe here To the third reason this quaere was grounded upon the many stumbling blocks the Liturgie lays before the feet of many He tels us that these stumbling blocks are remov●d by many We confesse indeed endeavours used by many whether effected or no that we question wee know it is no easie thing when a scruple hath once taken possession of the conscience to cast it out again Among the many the Remonstrant is pleased to refer us to Master Fisher for himself will not vouchsafe to foule his fingers with the removing of one of those blocks we mentioned whose book among all that have travelled in that way we think that any int●lligent Reader will judge most unable to give solid satisfaction to a scrupling conscience Tell us wee beseech you is it enough for a conscience that scruples the Surplice to say That it is as lawfull for you to enjoyn the Surplice and punish the omitting of it as it was for Solomon to enjoin Shimei not to goe out of Jerusalem and to punish him for the breach of that injunction or That the Surplice is a significative of divine alacritie and integritie and the expectation of glory Is it possible that a man that reads this should stūble at the Surplice after The Cross is not onely lawfull in the use of it but the removall of it would be scandalous and perillous to the State Baptisme is necessary to salvation Children dying unbaptized are in a forlorne condition therefore Midwives may baptize c. Let the Reader judge whether this be to remove stumbling blocks from before the feet of men or to lay more But if this Remonstrant think Master Fisher so able and happy a remover of those occasions of offence wee wonder how his quick sight could see cause of any alteration so much as in the manner of the expression knowing Master Fisher undertakes the defence not onely of the Substance but of the very Circumstances and Syllables in the whole Book But his last put off is this that if there be ought in it that may danger scandall it is under carefull hands to remove it The Lord be praysed it is so it is under carefull hands and hearts more mercifull then this Remonstrant is to remit troubled Consciences to No Better Cure then Master Fishers Book who we hope will do by those as the Helvetians did by some things that were stumbled at among them though they were none but Anabaptists that stumbled at them yet the State did by Authority remove them and Zwinglius their professed adversary gives them thanks for occasioning the removall To the fourth which was that it is Idolized and accounted as the onely worship of God in England c. At Amsterdame saith hee but hee knew wee spoke of such as adore it as an Idoll not such as abhorre it as an Idoll though it pleaseth him to put it off with a scoffe retorting upon us others say rather too many doe injuriously make an Idoll of preaching shall wee therefore consider of abandoning it We hope Sir you are not serious if you be that not a little your self is guilty of Idolizing the Liturgy Dare you in cool bloodequalize this very individuall Liturgy with Gods Ordinance of preaching and say there is as little sinne or danger in considering of the utter abandoning of preaching as there is in the abandoning of this present established Liturgie Cave dixeris The fift Argument was from the great distaste it meets with in many This hee imputes to nothing but their ill teaching and betakes himselfe to his old shifts of diversion and saith By the same reason multitudes of people distasting the truth of wholsome doctrine shall we to humour them abandon both It is a griefe to see this distast grow to such a height as tends to a separation and it is as strange to us that this Remonstrant should have a heart so void of pity as that the yielding to the altering or removing of a thing indifferent which stands as a wall of separation betwixt us and our brethren should be presented to publike view under no better notion then the humouring of a company of ill taught men or as the Remonstrant elsewhere calls them brainsick men or as another Booke men that have need of dark roomes and Ellebore For that ill teaching to which hee imputes this generall

which the Remonstrant directly doth not deny onely bids us lay our hands upon our hearts and consider whether our fomenting of so unjust and deep dislikes of lawfull government have not been too much guilty of those wofull breaches Sir wee have considered it and can before the great heart-searching God plead not guilty The dislike of present Church government which its own exorbitancy hath caused we have not fomented but have smothered our thoughts and griefs even untill this present wherein the gracious hand of God hath inclined the heart of our gracious Soveraigne to call a Parliament that hee and they might together consult of the pressures and grievances of his people and conclude their removall And now we cannot wee dare not hold our peace but declare our judgments that if it shall seem good to our dread Sovereigne and this Honourable Parliament upon the many complaints brought in against Bishops and their Hierarchicall government to remove the Hierarchie This Act of State may appeare to all to be farre from sinne this not being a government appointed by Christ nor stamped with a Ius Divinum though some will make that their protection As One that loves the peace of the Church which wee you say are willing to trouble You aske after the Bounders c. Are you one that loves the peace of the Church Wee pray of what Church Sure that Church that is called Prelaticall and no other Where of we give you the boundaries and characters which it seems please you not The bounders we shewed from your late Canons which say you are too narrow let them see to that that first made them It is apparent that the Canons made by Archbishops Bishops Deanes and Archdeacons in their Convocation were never consented to much lesse confirmed by Parliament and yet those are called the Canons and Constitutions of the Church of England And therfore sure though wee doe not exclude Bishops Deanes c. from being members of the Church yet They have excluded all the rest of the Nation For distinction wee brought bowing to the East to Altars c. Now these say you are not fit distinctions whereon to ground different Churches Yes Sir if it be true that some have held that the outward Formes of worship and ceremonies attending it are the characters whereby one Church is differenced from another but especially when such as will not practise these shall be disclaimed by such as doe them as none of the sonnes of the Church When men shall be forced to subscribe to the practice of these things or else they shall not bee admitted either into Livings or Cures as in the instanced particulars wee have knowne it then they make a difference of Churches And who are the authours of such differences but such as thus urge them Next wee brought their Creed and instanced in Episcopacie by divine right Hee replies Did ever man make this an Article of Faith Judge you by what Bishop Hall saith in his Episcopacie by Divine right part 2. pag. 47. I am so confident of the Divine institution of the Majority of Bishops above Presbyters that I dare boldly say there are weighty points of faith that have not so strong ground in Scripture Is this to make it an article of Faith or no And if not an Article of Faith yet we are sure it is made an Article of the Church For whereas by the orders of the Church of England a man upon the admission to his ministry is to be examined upon no other Articles then the Articles of Religion established in the Church of ENGLAND we have knowne more then one whose first question hath been what doe you thinke of Episcopaice We added absolute blind obedience to all commands of the Bishop Ordinaries you bid us blush But alas Sir we are not such strangers in England nor your selfe neither we believe as not to know but that this hath been the common doctrine and almost the sole Doctrine preached by prelaticall men these many yeeres together And the blinder the better This we have heard nor is it your limitation of the Oath of canonicall obedience in Omnibus licitis honestis will help you when some in stead of that have put in In omnibus editis edendis We added Election upon faith foreseen The Remonstrant cries What nothing but grosse untruthes Is this the Doctrine of the Bishops of England have they not strongly confuted it Yes sure some few have we know it And doth not the Remonstrant know that these few have been had in suspicion as no true friends of the Church much lesse sonnes of the Church more puritanicall then prelaticall And we would none of them had said They have beene labouring these twelve yeeres to get off the name of Puritan and yet tt will not doe and because of this have beene printed Tantum non in Episcopatu Puritani And the same Authour in an other booke after that Dico iterum iterumque dicam Tantam non in Episcopatu Puritani As for the Scriptures of Prelaticall men we mentioned Apocripha and unwritten traditions meaning that that generation lay as much weight almost upon traditions and Apocrypha as upon a genuine text and are more observant many of them of a custome and tradition then of the command of God For Sacraments we instanced a Baptisme of absolute necessity an Eucharist that must be administred upon an Altar What are these say you to the Church of England Nothing but to the Prelaticall Church they are Call them if you will Popish fooles and addleheads that maintaine these opinions yet we know the number of them is not small that have declined into these popish waies we acknowledge also that these are men if not that chiesly support the Prelacy yet such as have beene chiefely suppoted and countenanced by it We acknowledge there are many men learned and orthodox that have in their judgments approved of Episcopall government but what little incouragement these have had from the Prelates especially if laborious in their ministery or any way opposing the Prelaticall innovation in respect of the incouragements of those popish fooles and addle-heads as the Remonstrant cals them a man may see with halfe an eye You demanded what Christ the Prelaticall Church had Our answer is a Christ that hath given the same power of obsolution to a Priest that himsefe hath which answer you say is neere to blasphemy truely an opinion so neere to blasphemy can hardly be delivered in a language much distant from it but this you say is a slanderous fiction no Christian Divine ever held Priests power of absolution was any other then ministeriall If we know the man bring him forth that hee may be stoned Truely sir we knew the man that said the Priests power in absolution was more then Ministeriall it was judiciary but he is past stoning hee is dead and we know another said as much but he sung Agags song

but every man prayed according to his ability Secondly that in Ezra his time eighteene short forms of Prayers were composed for the scattered Iews which had lost the use of the holy language because they thought it best to continue their Prayers and Worship of God in that sacred tongue Thirdly but not a word of any set forms which the Priests or Levits were to use but only to helpe the ignorant Iews to expresse themselves in prayer to God in the holy language at the time or houres of prayer Which the men of the great Synagogue had appointed Peter and Iohn went up together to the Temple at the houre of prayer being the ninth houre Though we alleage not this of Maymonides as a testimony to command beliefe yet wee conceive it farre more to be regarded then any Samaritan Chronicle Secondly hee hath some scraps of Iewish Liturgies out of Capellus concerning which a short answer may serve first there is not one of the Iewish Liturgies now extant which was made before the Iews ceased to be the Church of God for besides the eighteene short formes before mentioned there were no other made till Rabbi Gamaliel his time who according to the judgment of learned Criticks is that Gamaliel mentioned in the Acts from whom Paul got such bitter principles against Christian Religion But whensoever they began Capellus would laugh should he heare what a strange conceit this Remonstrant had gotten from him that the Iewish Liturgies were as ancient as the time of Moses merely because he parallels some Iewish phrases which hee found in them with certaine phrases in the Gospell which the Iews retained by Tradition from their Fathers and put into their Liturgies But Buxtorfius would fal out with him that he should so much abuse him as to say he had affirmed that Maymonides took his Creed out of the Liturgie for the man is not guilty of any such grosse mistake he saith indeed that the Articles of the Iewish Creed are printed in the Liturgies but withall hee tels the Remonstrant that Maymonides was the first composer of them whence therefore the Iews put them into their Liturgie Thus wee leave his Iewish Liturgie which the Reader will easily see to be more Iewish then hee could justly suppose our instance of William Rufus was and that it affords him as little furtherance For Christian Liturgies which the Remonstrant had affirmed to have been the best improvement of the peace and happinesse of the Evangelicall Church ever since the Apostles times we challenged the Remonstrant setting aside those that are confessedly spurious to produce any Liturgie that was the issue of the first 300 yeers in answer to which he brings us forth the Liturgies which we have under the names of Iames Basil and Chrysostome to which our Reply may be the briefer because hee himselfe dares not vouch them for the genuine writings of those holy men Onely saith hee we have them under their names Secondly he confesseth there are some intersertions spurious in them Thirdly all that he affirmes is that the substance of them cannot be taxed for any other then holy and ancient what censure the learned Criticks both Protestants and Papists have p●st upon these Liturgies we hope the Remonstrant knows we will onely mind him of what the le●rned Rivetus speaks of the Liturgies of Iames Peter Matthew Mark has omnes profectas esse ab inimico homine q●i bonae semenii Domini nocte super seminavit z●z●nia solidis rationibus probavit Nobilisque illustris Philip Morneus lib. 1. de Missae partihus ejus Which because the Remonstrant so often finds fault with our misenglishing wee leave to him to see if hee can construe these Zizania to be any other then these Liturgies and this inimicus homo to be any other then the Devill Nor will his implication of the ancient Councell of Ancyra helpe him which forbade those Priests that had not sacrificed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Will the Restrant say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was to serve in the holy Liturgies that is reading set Litnrgies he may as wel say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the reading of set Homilies Balsamon Zonaras Dionysius Isidore and Gentian Harvet doe all translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aliquod munus sacerdotale subire And that the Remonstrant may not delude himself nor others with the ambiguitie of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as if every mētion of these did by implication prove such a Liturgie as for which he contends Let him know that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is variously used in Antiquity sometimes for all the Ministeriall Offices so Zonaras in Concil Antioch Can. 4. and so Concil 4. Ancyra Can. 1. quoted by himselfe if hee would either have observed or acknowledged it sometimes only for prayer so Balsamon in Can. 12. Concil Sardic 6. Sometimes singing of our Psalmes is tearmed by Chrysostome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The same Father expounds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Acts 13. by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hom. 27. in Act. so that for the proof of such Liturgies as are the Subject of this question it is not enough to shew us the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in antiquity let him shew the thing before he so Dictator-like condemne those for giddy heads that will not take his word for proofs and believe it was the undeniable practice of antiquity to use Liturgies and formes of prayer because he saith so His supercillious censure upon our passage about conceived prayer is not worth the taking notice of he saith We are sullen and crabbed pieces tecchy and quarrelsome men and why because we said his large prayses of conceived prayer were but a vantage ground to advance publike forms the higher how truly judg what cause we had so to think wee declared from the cruell and ungodly practices of the late times which he will scarce take notice of Our arguing about the originall and confirmation of our Church Liturgie he calls wrangling For the originall the Remonstrant said it was taken out of the ancient Models not Roman but Christian here wee tooke notice of the opposition betweene Roman and Christian because by the Remonstrant made Termini sese mu●u● removentes which we perceive now hee is not willing should passe for his meaning hee will not have it meant of an opposition but of a different modification Though his instances brought to exemplifie it are not all ad oppositum We will not make digressive excursions into new controversies though wee are not affraid of burning our fingers with his hot Iron Only wee tell him that the Suffrages of unquestionable Divines are not so unanimous but that from some of them wee could fetch sparks to fling in the face of him that desired their suffrages without burning our-own fingers Compare what the booke called the Old Religion speaks of the Church of

Rome p. 6. where a speech imputed to Luther is justified as a charitahle and not too indulgent a profession viz. That under the Papacie is all good true Christianitie the very kernel of Christianity c. Compare this with what the Bishop of Salisbury saith in his begged suffrage who thus speaks That the Church of Rome is no more a true Church than an arrant Whore is a true wife to her husband To disprove what he affirmed that the Liturgy was taken out of Models not Roman but Christian We produced King Edwards Proclamation to which he answers nothing onely ownes that and scornes us thinking to wipe off all exceptions with the glorious names of Martyrs and Confessors that composed it For whom though wee dare not glory in man yet wee blesse God as well as he But with all if we should say there were some holy Martyrs and Confessors of the same reformed Religion that were Opposers of it and suffered in opposition even to a persecution the lives of some of them being pursued from City to City which he knows is most true and so may any that will read the booke called the troubles of Frankfort Would this be a sufficient argument in his judgment for the remo●all of it But this is not the strength by which our Liturgie stands it stands confirmed by Parliamentary Acts and King Iames his Proclamation to which wee answered that neither the King nor the Parliament intended such a rigorous pressing of the Liturgie as we have felt Secondly that neither our own Laws nor the Proclamation of that ever admired Prince are as unalterable as the Lawes of the Medes and Persians this he cals a bold flout of purpose to render us odious to our dread Sovereigne and the Honorable house as likewise in the next page seems to impute that language to us which is his own our loyall hearts startle to think of a repetition of the words they are in pag. 23. of the Defence and are concerning King Iames whom in the clause wee had last in hand wee mentioned with the deserved memory of a famous and ever admired Prince We confesse in some passages of that booke wee tooke liberty to use some cheerfull expressions provoked thereto by the strange confidence and little strength of our Remonstrant Remembring that of Tertullian It wel agrees with truth to laugh because it is of a pleasant disposition and to sport with her competitors because it is secure and feares not the wals of her bulwarks But what ever we have done in other places here wee attest the great Searcher of hearts it never came into our thoughts to use a light expression much lesse to flout in so bold a manner as hee accuseth us Nor doe wee thinke it possible that any charitable Reader could suppose wee aimed at any other then what we expresse more plainly pag. 20. of our answer of the power of Princes and Parliaments in changing their laws His next business is with our queres the first whereof was this Whether it be not fit to consider of the alteration of the Liturgie which we hoped had beene presented in such modest termes speaking of an alteration not an utter abrogation of consideration of an alteration not prescribing the alteration onely of a fitnes of such an alteration not of the necessity of such an alteration as should never have occasioned such a sarcasticall Declaration as he their makes The thing propounded is so equall that the Remonstrant who makes conscience to agree with us in as little as hee may here is forced to confesse much against his will for which we may thank the Honorable Parliament there is some need of alteration but this cōfession is joined with such a height of sco●n●t seems to threaten those who ever they are that should dare attempt it exprest in such away of diminution as gives just cause to suspect it is a meer designe to gain upon the Parliament and by a pretended shadow of an alteration to prevent a reall and totall reformation he tels us of wiser heads then our own that will consider of the alteration if here hee mean the Parliament hee meanes the same to whom wee have presented these considerations concerning whom wee doubt not but they will make another manner of an alteration then the Remonstrant speaks of consisting onely of a bare change of a few expressions and that in the manner of them Onely But if these wise heads hee here speaks of are such as his own that it may be are complotting some kind of a castigation of the Liturgie then wee feare that although the times will not serve to make such an alteration as that of the English Liturgie sent into Scotland yet the alteration is like to be no better than in Queene Elizabeths time when the Parliament having given order for the alteration and correction of the Letany all the Alteration that was made in it was onely the taking out of that one suffrage from the Pope of Rome and all his detestable enormities good Lord deliver us The Remonstraut tels us of a Martyr whom he cals Silly and Ignorant wee dare not Doctor Taylor that magnified the Liturgy to Bishop Gardiner as compleat but where this story is you tell us not wee could answer story with story which would please you much lesse then this doth us we could tell you of a Martyr that said it was the Mark of the Beast to receive from the Bishop a Licence to preach Wee could tell you of that Doctor Tailor who when hee was degraded having his corner Cap and the rest of his Priestly Robes put on when they were taken off again said hee now I am rid of my fools coat That our proposition of entring into consideration about altering the Liturgie might not seeme unreasonable wee set downe our reasons enforcing such alteration all which the Remonstrant brings under the severity of his censure First wee say it symbolizeth so much with the Popish Masse as that the Pope would have approved it which hee denyes not if he had we could have proved it from a man above suspition in this cause Doctor Morton Onely hee saith If the Devill confesse Christ to be the Son of God shal I disclaim the truth because it passed through a damned mouth but you know Sir that Christ would not receive such a Confession from the Devils mouth nor Paul neither Act. 16. and loth wee would be to go to the Devill to learne a confession It is true Gold in the impurest Chanell is not to be contemned but what need we goe to the Chanell for gold when wee can have it in the purest stream or what need we goe to the Roman Portu●se for a Prayer when wee can have one more free from jealousies in another place Will a wiseman goe to the Stews to seek an honest woman to make his wife Our second Reason why wee propounded this quaere was because this was composed into this forme on