Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	apostle_n	church_n	doctrine_n	4,033	5	6.2595	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77724	A publick disputation sundry dayes at Killingworth in Warwick-shire, betwixt John Bryan, doctor in divinity (minister at Coventry) and John Onley, pastor of a church at Lawford. Upon this question, whether the parishes of this nation generally be true churches. Wherin are nine arguments alleged in proof of the affirmative of the question, with the answer of I. O. thereunto, together with Doctor B. Reply. Also an addition of ten arguments more in further proof of the question, with an answer adjoyned in disproof thereof. Published by both their consents, as appears by the ensuing epistles.	Bryan, John, d. 1676.; Onley, John.	1655 (1655)	Wing B5245; Thomason E823_9; ESTC R207672	61,370	75

it as a Pillar c. Now Sir The Minor is evidently false the very naming of it is Confutation sufficient it being evident to behold that the Parishes of this Nation have always been and still are inclinable to whatsoever their Teachers and Rulers set up without ever questioning the truth of it except here and there a man which is nothing to our question it being of the Parishes generally Look upon them in the time of Popery and produce one Parish-Church much less all that opposed the power of the Pope but all inclinable to that wicked worship so in the time of Prelacy how conformable to that never once talking then of Presbytery and I believe as formerl● so now if the power of this Nation should enact that al should turn Independents they would obey without any general opposition and within this few years would as little think of Presbytery which you think to be truth now as they did then when he was Counted an Hereticke that believed not as the Church believed Which was then the scarlet-coloured whore of Rome and yet you let not to say they have been the Pillar of Truth defending it against all Errors which if true Presbytery is false in that the Parishes of this Nation have born Testimony to two contrary Religions Popery and Prelacy That Church that one time professeth Popery and another while Prelacy being variable according to the times in which she lives that Church is not the Pillar and ground of truth But the Parishes of this Nation have one while c. Ergo and for Revel 2. 13. When you have proved the Parishes of this Nation Pergamus I will Consider of it I know no advantage I should have gotten if the word Reply Dr. B. Church had been permitted to stand instead of Parishes but rather disadvantage because a National Church is as liable if not more to exception nor can I imagine how this could have hidden the folly of my Argument its folly to pick a quarrell the Church is nothing els but the Parishes or if you will that is the Mother these the daughters the Minor proposition which you deny will appear evident enough by considering the Apostles meaning of Pillar and Ground of Truth and applying it to our Assemblies both which I will do in few words The House or Church of God is so call'd in respect of the profession and maintenance of the true Religion of God which it both supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others as Magistrates use to hang and affix their Edicts and Proclamations on pillars or other places of strength and firmness and here consequently is declared the Office and duty of the Church in holding and publishing the Truth and defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions and whatsoever Societies do this it s written upon those Societies with a Sun beam that they are the true Churches of Christ Now it s notoriously known that the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. are published and consented to by all the See the answer of the Elders of the several Churches of New England to the ninth Question p. 26. and Church Covenant p. 40. Ministers endowed in every Congregation of this Nation with the silent consent also of the People and subscription of the hands of the chief of them wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or Manners but the holy Scriptures no divine worship but to God only no Mediation nor Salvation but in Christ only no Conversion by Mans free will but by Gods free grace no Justification but by Faith no perfection nor merit of works with all other necessary and saving truths upon which the Church is grounded and built and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth This alone abundantly evinceth that the Parishes of this Nation are the Pillar and ground of Truth Besides these truths are daily in most Congregations faithfully opened and applyed and whatsoever is contrary thereunto on the right hand or left convincingly confuted our Parishes therefore keeping Gods Records faithfully are his Registers and consequently his true Churches Your declaiming against the inclinableness of our People to alter with their Governors might have been spared well knowing it was the practice of the Church of Israel to do so and the Churches of Galatia how soon were they removed from him that called them into the Grace of Christ unto another Gospell to the admiration of the Apostle Galat. 1. 6. And therefore it needs be no marvell if our people so easily change from one Church-Goverment to another which they may do without prejudice to fundamental verity which though the Galathians overthrew yet they remained true Churches If you read the Epistle of Christ to Pergamus understandingly and compare our Church with that you will find that we are not worse and wherein any in that Church were praise-worthy for doing or suffering you may find some in ours not short of them From our practice agreeing with the practice of the Primitive Arg. 7. Dr. B. Apostolical Churches Those Societies that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and in Prayer are true Churches Acts 2. 42. but so do ours Ergo. I deny your Minor and the reason why we separate from you is upon Answ J. O. that ground you have added neither Scripture nor Reason to prove your Minor but have left it destitute of all proof you could hardly have brought a Scripture in all the Bible which in every thing both in doctrine and practice makes so directly against you as this that you have brought for you For first your doctrine is contrary secondly so is your practice for doctrine first after that Peter had preacht the Lord Christ to these men it working upon their hearts ver 37. they cryed out What shall we do the doctrine of the Apostle to them ver 38. is Repent and be Baptized and so they were ver 41. they were the same day added to the Church but you both Ministers and People go directly contrary first Baptize them at three or four dayes old and so make them members of your Church and perhaps twenty or forty years after preach Repentance just contrary to the Apostles doctrine and Gods examples 1 King 6. 7. Ephes 2. 21 22. 1 Pet. 2. 5. First you take into your house unhued stones and unsquared timber and twenty or forty years after fall to squaring them for the building Now for your practice in your fellowship the powerfull operation of the Gospell of Jesus Christ after it had workt them from the world and from themselves and one into another in the unity of the Spirit as one man it is said ver 44 45. and all that believed were together had all things common and sold their possessions c. And chap. 4. 32 34 35. and the multitude of believers were of one heart and one soul neither said any of them that ought that he possessed was

before his Incarnation you will find that our Congregations walk in the steps of Abraham of his Faith as in other things so particularly in this which I look you will storm at that they bring their Infant-Children to the sign of initiation appointed for the Church in the administration under which they live of the Faith of Moses and all the Prophets following their doctrine and pious practice too If you say most of our People deny the power of Religion I answer more of the Church of Israel did so 2. Look upon the Flock after Christ and you will find ours follow their steps both for doctrine and discipline the former none denyes and the substantials of the later we had even in the Bishops reign as Learned and Godly Mr. Hilderson hath made good against the Brownists and for that which is styled the Presbyteri●n Government if you read without prejudice the Jus divinum Regiminis Ecclesiastici you will find proof sufficient that That layes truest Claim to divine right and they that embrace and follow it walk in the steps of Christs Antient Apostolical flock Your common Allegation against this viz. That our Members are not Baptized Believers and therefore we walk not in the steps of the Antient Flock is notoriously false For first that our Members are Believers and many of them Real ones you will not deny Secondly and that they were all Baptized in their Infancy you will acknowledge at least they had water applyed to them in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost which is the right form of Baptism All that you do or can object is that they were not a fit subject of Baptism but our Saviours Words in his Commission according to your own interpretation of them confute you for Infants are a part of a discipled Nation yea they are Disciples Acts 15. 10. holy 1 Cor. 7. 14. and Church-members as learned Mr. Baxter hath proved by 27. Arguments and by denying Infants of Believers to be a fit subject of Baptism you deny as was lately shewed that Christ is come in the Flesh For if he be come certainly the Church is no loser but a gainer by his coming but by denying to Believers Infants this privilege the Church is a loser by his coming The tenth Argument shall be ad hominem and an additional to a branch of the second If your societies be true Churches then so are ours but the former is true Ergo the latter The consequence is only to be made good If all that 's good in your Churches you had it from ours both persons and things then the Consequence is certain Because nihil dat quod non babet but all that 's good in yours c. Two thing make persons good First Profession of the true Faith Secondly Correspondent piety the former of these you have all along yielded the latter likewise you have granted our best members have but the best of them you must acknowledge you have gained from us for as much as immediatly upon their departing us you Baptize them which argues they are fit matter for your Church 1. The Consequence of the first and also second Syllogism framed Answ J. O. to prove the fi●st is false For we might constitute our Churches of such matter as we gained from you and yet ours true and yours false because ours was constituted of such matter as appeared all good and yours was constituted of such as was for the greatest part bad For though it be most true that nothing gives that it hath not yet it is also as true that something may be gained from another that the loser retains not An Army of Souldiers may consist of honest men and wicked and the honest may be gained from the wicked and now upon your Consequence the wicked may prove themselves as good as the honest thus if all that 's good in you you had from us then if you be honest we are honest But all that 's good in you you had from us Ergo if you be honest we are honest If this Consequence be true viz. That if all that 's good in one Church they had in another then if one be true so is the other I will upon your own principles prove Rome a true Church Thus If you be true Churches Rome is true but the former is true Ergo. The Consequence is only to be made good if all that 's good in the Parishes of this Nation you had from Rome both persons and things then the Consequence is certain because Nihil da● quod non habet but all that 's good in yours c. The Consequence is your own the Minor is evident that you both persons and Ordinances came from Rome and thus you may see what your Logick helps you to Now let 's see upon this Consequence which way you can prove your selves true and Rome false and I am confident if you speak to the purpose you will answer for me against your self But if by these words had from ours you should say you mean not only to have a Companie out but to have them made good and fitted by those from whence they be taken if thu be your meaning then the Minor of your second Syllogism is contrarie to your self for sure you never fit men to say that your Ministrie is false your Church and Ordinances false and that ours is true and that they ought to Separate from you and come to us if not they were not fitted by you for us for thus they come to us Thus the Consequence of your Argument carries with it no Concluding force and the Conclusion falls to the ground for if all that 's good in us dia come from you as it doth not Yet we might be true and you false But secondly I deny your Minor viz. That all that 's good in us came from you Two things you say make persons good profession of the true Faith and Correspondant prety the former I yielded the latter granted I Answer I never granted any such thing I have granted and still do that there may be some in the Parochial Assemblies that may be godly People but that they be professors of the true Faith as it is fully banded out in the Gospell I have alwais denied So not yielding the former not granting the latter Our Baptizing them immediatly at their departure you say argues we judge them fit matter c. I answer It 's not true we Baptize them not Immediatly at their departing you but upon considerable time of triall as may be convenient to judge that their Conversations together with their principles in owning of ours and disowning of yours and all others so far as they be contrary to truth is reall Next you say for things the pure word and Sacraments rightly Dr. B. administred they had in our Church you will not I know object want of discipline because you teach that not to be necessarie to the being of a Church If it

bad that is fain to make use of such poor proofs to hold it up viz. That the Ministers of this Nation generally are set by Christ in these places and yet many of them visibly abominable that have nothing to do to take Gods Word into their mouths seeing they hate to be Reformed and that all these are able rightly to divide the Word of Truth and that God hath blest their Labours which is so evidently false that the naming of it is confutation sufficient You did or might have heard from my mouth a full discourse Reply Dr. B. in vindication of the Ministery of England and of the lawfulness of their Ordination wherein all that you have here objected and much more was fully answered You have therefore no reason to say that either I will not or cannot prove it true your self or friends have the Notes at large which you may remember were publiquely produced the next Month day after the Sermon was preached Two things I shall lay down as to the charge brought against our ordination by Bishops First That the Bishops by See joint consent answer to the 4 objection against the whole body of our Assemblies p. 19. whom we were ordained cannot truly and properly be called Antichristian because they held the truth of doctrine and prof●ssed all the fundamental Articles of the Christian Faith many of them have written powerfully against P●pety and suffered much for defending the Truth of Christ against Antichrist some of them yet living such Gospell Ministers against whom Envy it self cannot except fulfilling the Word o● God by fidelity of dispensation and sincerity of Conversation Let all such places of Scripture be Consulted where Antichrist is described and you will find him always markt out by his falle doctrine though therefore it be confessed that in the Authority which our Bishops had and the exercise thereof there were something Antichristian yet it is as unchristian to call them Antichrists upon that account as to call you an hypocrite because there is something of hypocrisy in you Secondly Suppose them to be indeed Popish and Antichristian it will not follow that the ordination we had from them is so It is confest by all that this Nation had not the light of the Gospell and consequently the ordination of Gospell-Ministers from Rome but from Jerusalem even in the times of the Apostles or soon after and though the succession of this ordination hath passed through all the times of Popery since and the ordination of our first Reformers was from men of the Popish Religion yet is not the rightfulness of our vocation to the Ministery hereby Nulled the Scriptures themselves Baptism and the Articles of our Creed have all passed through the Papacy to us and yet they cease not to be true Scriptures true Baptism no more does Ordination Ministerial Acts are not at all vitiated much lesse made null though they passe through the hands of the worst of men Scribes and Pharisees were worse than naught Judas was a Devill Math. 23. 2 3. John 6. 70. Acts done by vertue of Office may be just and allowable though the Men and their Religion be naught You are not ignorant of the instance given of Popish Landlords and Judges whose Leases and sentences are not therfore Antichristian So in this Case Ordination is an Act of Office and derived from Christ and is not Popish though it be executed by Papists He that thinks Christs Ordination better for the Man that confers it is justly thought to incur the danger of that Curse denounced Jer. 17. 5. Much more may be said to stop your mouth but that so much is written already that all our adversaries are never able to resist Touching the exception against our entrance that we were not thosen by our People but presented by Patrons many things have been Answered that may suffice to give satisfaction to any sober minded First That the right of presentation that patrons have was given first by the Peoples free consent and therefore the choice they make may be accounted to be the choyce of the people Secondly The Law of our Land in the worst times required that People should have the same Election for substance which you plead for Thirdly Many of our Ministers were chosen by their People Fourthly The faithfull in many Congregations by their glad receiving of Ministers placed by Patrons and submitting themselves willingly to their godly directions at least by taking no exception against them consent to their entrance Fiftly Though it be very unfitting that People if fit to chuse should have a Minister thrust upon them yet there is no cleer Scripture-evidence that Ministers must be chosen by their People the meaning of that word in the Acts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can be no more but this that the event of the Lot was approved by the common consent and no marvell because it was determined by God but hence it followes not that it was their choice to accept or refuse him for an Apostle or if it did follow what is this to ordinary Ministers To that in Acts 6. not to say as some do that it might be the Apostles indulgence to the People Certain it is that an example without a precept makes not a constant Rule again from the Peoples Election of Deacons to their Election of Ministers the Consequence is not valid as it is not from the Election of a Maior to the Election of a King That place in Acts 14. 23. seemes most potent but the word there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not strong enough because it 's used to signify any Choice whatever though made by one alone Acts 10. 41. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Apostles were Elected by Christ alone Mark 6. Moreover the word is vsed by Ecclesiastical writers for to signify Imposition of hands which no way belonged to the People but was always referred to the Apostles and their successors 6. Suppose it necessary yet it is Evident enough that there may be some entrance into the Ministery sufficient where the People at first have not made Election as in Case they have not knowledge of their right or have not been suffered to use it but yet afterwards yielded themselves subject thereunto 7. Those that Consider how the Office of High Priest in our Saviours time was bought and sold and the succession ordinarily broken and yet how valid Acts done by them were to all intents and purposes will be abundantly satisfied that these allegations to null our Ministerial Office are lighter than vanity The other two Reasons to prove our Ministers to be sent of God are such as you threaten to examin but finding them too strong to deal with you leave them but leave not to cast filth upon his Faithfull Labourers because there are many unfaithfull ones among them as if the Priest-hood under the Law were made null by the ignorance and wickedness of a multitude in that Office If there were but a tenth of