WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures they may answere the same which we doe for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine may professe that all cities village◠〈◊〉 which were religous were seasoned with their doctrine for in the Apostles time all Churches all cities all townes euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe After that by little and little the purity of doctrine n DVR Tell me then from whom and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift that we may see it hath moued though we cannot discerne the mouing of it so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall but the time when and the manner how they were brought in is not much to our purpose And it were too long to tell all yet heare some Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops thâ—ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice but he was repressed by the African Councell Then Gregory the great greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist Lastly Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide And since that hee grew to that height that hee made not only Churches and Kings but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete But see another example Time was when there were no images in Churches As that of Epiphanius proueth who rent a vaile in peeces because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint But in time they were receiued into the Church but no honor giuen them yet after that good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did whom he thus checketh for it In that you forbad them to be worshipped wee commend you but that you brake them we reprehend you Gregor regist lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed that they were not to be broken yea that they were religiously to be worshipped And thus hath it succeeded in other things as S. Paul did foretellâ—e saying The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke 2. Thess 2.7 began to be corrupted and diuers superstitions spread far and neare though the holy Fathers did as much as they could resist 2. Thess 2.7 vntill that mystery of iniquitie which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time spread it selfe o DVR VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously when he did so â—â—â—ell of a departing and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church by all the parts of the Church and at length possessed it wholy Yet Antichrist that man of sinne could neuer preuaile so farre but a great multitude of the Saints remained and those whose names were written in the booke of life did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked superstitions of Antichrist For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it yet many were euer found who worshipped the God of their Fathers and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie And this can histories of all times witnesse which I could now recite if it were needful and reckon vp to you many houses villages townes cities and countries where Christ had many and populous Churches The p DVR This is very false for in the FloreÌ„tine Councell the Emperour Paleolus together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ and imbraced the Romane faith yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes or vvhy obey they not the Pope why came they not to the Councell of Trent the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue theÌ„ subiect to him but they stil coÌ„temne him to his no small griefe It is true the Emperour the Patriarke and a multitude of Bishops came to the FloreÌ„tine CouÌ„cel They agreed vvith theÌ„ in many things â—â—â—hers they dissented your TraÌ„substantiation they vtterly renouÌ„ced At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople See you not hovv vvell they agree I haue a booke of yours not of Ieremies neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his for both the Grecianâ— and particularly he hath giuer great approbation of our Churches as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church and it is 〈◊〉 opposite to you as euer our Church was And yet you so forge these things as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection Vntill that vnhappy Monke as you say by his incestâ—â—â—â— marriage had defloured a Nunne dedicated to God by 〈◊〉 soleâ—â—â—◠〈◊〉 or vntill that quarrelling Swâ—â—â— had câ—â—spired against his country or that infamous â—â—â—â—gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Geâ—â—â—â— So Campian go on to raile and reuile euery good man powre out the gall of your bitternes seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them Luthers name is written in the book of life and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him It is a true saying that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne you call him Monke your selfe is but a Frier now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers But he by incestuous marriage deâ—â—oured 〈◊〉 Nomâ—â—â— dedicated to God by solemne vow q DVR But you goe against S. Paul who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry hauing broken their first saith which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstaÌ„deth by that faith the vow of virginity Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes whom he perswadeth to marry should be taken into that office only such as were threescore yeares old who may well abstaine from marriages follow this calling Now if they be not of this age he sheweth
satisfied Nay but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded Then when Clemens gouerned the Church then also when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome Euen then I confesse Rome was an excellent Church of Christ Will this content you Nay further you say Then also when Damasus Siricius Anastasius Innocentius executed the Apostolike function This is not to discend by degrees but to leape for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much Because Caluin as you say frankly confesseth Iâ—st lib. 4. cap. 2. sâ—ct 3 Epist ad Sadâ—l that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell Doe not you Campian catch hold of that which no man will giue you nor be too confident of others liberalitie Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted therefore you must redeliuer it Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers when they alleaged the succession of Bishops was not to proue those to be true Churches where Bishops succeeded one another but this first they assumed as most certaine that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages whereof they speake there was no alteration in religion and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church Caluin then saith not that they had k DVR Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ vvhich swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine vvhat can be spâ—ken more absurdly WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe for vvâ—â— not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors the Church of God The Corinthians and Galathians when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell yet S. Paul saluted them 〈◊〉 Churches 1 Cor. 1.2 Gal. 1.2 which he would not haue done if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors altered nothing in any point of faith but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell that Caluin neuer confessed and wee constantly denie To say nothing of the rest Thus l DVR This error is common to you and many of your felloâ—es for Syricius vvas not the first vve haâ—e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage vvhich numbreth this among the Apostolike trâ—ditions Carthag 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemenâ— it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests waâ— not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood Epiphan hâ—â—rel 59. And Hierome against Viâ—ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life yet none was compelled by law against his will and as for the Councell of Carthage it was held in the time of this Syricius And so not before him for your Clemeâ—s you knovv hee is of no vvorth but a meere counterfeite That you report of the Grecians is incredible vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this snare Hierome indeed produceth an old custome but no Apostolike nor yet perpetuall custome Syricius swarued from the doctrine of the Gospell when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie and this doubtlesse was no small digression but a plaine departing froÌ„ the m DVR VVhat Catholike euer said that marriage was euill S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes and other heretikes of that sort WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my ansvvere is easie your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Ministers from marriage vsed those reasons vvhich either condemned marriages simplie or els they conclude nothing For vvhen they thus reason Priests may not marrie because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord and the Chappell of the holy Ghost therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes because they ought to be holy because they shall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiscence and to the vncleane all things are vncleane because they vvho are in the flesh cannot please God What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill impure and vvicked Make these then no Catholikes or else your question is ansvvered To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only is absurde as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times yea and he hath taxed not those only vvho condemne marriage but vvho forbid them vvhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth Apostolike doctrine 1. Tim. 4.3 Heb. 13.4 Now at length you make a stay and pursue the histories of the Church no further only you demaund when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone For this is as cleere and without question as that the present citie of Rome is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh wittily who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome So if you would now in the present n DVR VVhat impudencie is this there vvas neuer heresie that assaulted this Church of vvhich it caried not the victorie As ouer the Donatists Iouinian Pelagius the Britaine and others WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches and stand to that I haue saide The Church of Rome vvhich once flourished is novv so oppressed vvith Antichrist that besides the outvvard face image countenance of a Church a vaine pompe there is nothing else left in it There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith pestiferous leaued no Sacrament but polluted vvith sacriledge and corruption no discipline but Antichristian I passe not for your Popes chaire your Colledge of Cardinals the glorie of your Bishops your Priests Monkes Temples riches nothing moue me I search for a liuing Church not bare walles for a man not a picture for a body not a shadow as for your criumphes you boast of they are no more proper to the true Church then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus Anniball Perses Antiochus are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being Finally as for Pelagius he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome For
what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many they would waâ— waâ—â—on against Christ and breake their first faith which is not their vow but the profession of Christian religion which such light buswiues would easily coâ—â—â—â—â— that they might inioy their pleasures And that this is his meaning the 1â— verse sheweth For certeine are already turned backe after Satan shewing what some had done he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like And as for the Fathers if they did also expound these words as indeed they doe not yet the argument is very weake in diuinity The Fathers haue thus expounded it therefore the exposition is true Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash superstitious vow after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion Exclaime bitterly as you list Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler seeing your self is a player of a Price But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens Slerdum lib. 8. Occolam Ephes lib. 4. If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his couÌ„trie religion where he perished by cruell theeues who lay in waite for him what did he vnbefitting a valiant man a good citizen and a faithfull Pastor to do For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country besides that it is a shamelesse lie I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country As for Caluin whom you call a seareback runagate the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man and a most constant seruant of the Lord who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie as you are from shamefastnes and honesty If he was seared S. Paul was so too Gal. 6.17 yea diuers others but indeed he was not And whereas you call him a runagate I pray you tell vs where you haue liued for these diuers yeares and remember what your selfe were Caluin neuer forsooke the Church hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne but there he liued with the speciall loue of all and there he ended his daies but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men whom you shal neuer iustly defame though you burst your hart with lying But let vs now heare your communication as you call it And heere you demaund Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres we answere we will subscribe but say you to which Church I answere r DVR He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church which had continued in the precept of the Apostles but vvhether to that Church vvhich hath flourished these many hundred yeares vvhich if you vvould you must needs yeeld as ouercome vvhen none but ours haue flourished thus long WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares or for many ages together in the opinion of men it only hâ—â— the name of â—â—e church 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine but you shall neuer proue 〈◊〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place Sea succession no more then Christ his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles that is to the Churches of Hierusalem Antioch Ephesus and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oysteâ— Finally we subscribe to those Churches of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine which the Apostles taught among them sound vncorrupt These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine were true Churches to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand but no answere will please you vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church but that we iustly disclaime because it hath fouly corrupted the â—â—â—stles writing You must find you out other subscribers Campian for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches But one thing say you they will still stand vpon in darkenes that where and in what place soeuer the Church is there are conâ—eiued therein only Saints and such as are predestinate to go to heauen We speake not so of the Church as you write for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church that it is sometimes Å¿ DVR I beleeue only one Catholike Church as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me which conteineth both the elect and as many as professe true religion Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church no more then when the Church is said to be mâ—â—â—an and uâ—â—â—phant vniuersall and particular For the visible and â—â—uisible Church make but one called visible for the outward policy or order of it which is seene and discerned inuisâ—ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies And this distinction we haue Esay 1.9 Matth. 22.14 As for the Creedes you mention we beleeue them in this point aswell as you But tell vs this one Catholike Church what is it If you restraine the name to the visible Church first you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints and that which shall be of these which aâ—e vnborne and yet do belong to the Catholike Church secondly you place faith in the sense which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene Heb. 11.1 As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue it is the company of all the elect euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world and shall be to the end therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church the communion of Saints And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men no hypocrites because they haue no fellowship with Christ For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ of which body no member can at any time perish visible and sometimes inuisible In a particular visible Church of which they are members who will heare the Word and receiue the Sacraments we confesse there are many fained Christians who had rather haue the visard of faith then true faith indeed An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly who with a
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
all the c Hiero. in cat script saincts of heauen that through their pure and vertuous conuersation vpon the earth gaue a rare example vnto all sorts of men Thou shalt finde that they both liued here and died members of our Catholick Church And that we may take a tast of some few by name d In Epist. ad Smyr on our side was Ignatius that so earnestly thirsted after martyrdome who in ecclesiasticall matters aduanced a * And we in those thingâ— which are proper to a Bishop make none equall to a Bishop Bishop euen aboue a King who penned also certaine traditions of the Apostles whereof he himselfe was a witnesse least they should be quite forgotten e Euseb lib. 3. cap. 30. Dam. in vit Telesp To. 1. con c. stat d. 5. On our side was that Anchorete Telesphorus who commanded that the fast of Lent which was before instituted by the Apostles shouldbe kept more strictlie On our side was S. Ireneus f Lib. 3. c. 3. who proued that the Apostolike faith descended vnto vs by the succession and sea of Rome On our side also was that high Bishop g Euseb 5. hist. 24. Victor who by a generall Proclamation * This is false for he could not subdue it kept the whole Countrie of Asia in due obedience which Proclamation though to some it seemed somewhat hard but specially vnto this most blessed man S. Ireneus no man yet attempted to deface as * This is false for many Bishops haue bitterly inueyed against Victor for this cause forraigne authoritie Polycarpus h Euseb 4. hist 14. Suidas was on our side that about the question of the keeping of Easter day went and conferred with the sea of Rome whose reliques after he was burned the faithfull Christians at Smyrna gathered together and gaue due honor vnto their Bishop by obseruing yearely the day of his death as an high and solemne feast On our side were i Euseb 7. Hist 2. S. Cornelius and S. Cyprian those golden paire of Martyrs which were both very worthy Prelates but the former was the greater who when he was Bishop of Rome abolished the Affrican errors The latter also got great commendations through his loyall obedience which he shewed to his superior and dearest friend he had in the world On our side was Sixtus who when he song Masse at the Altar was solemnely serued with seauen men of the Cleargie On our side was S. Laurence this mans Archdeacon whom the aduersaries cancell out of their Calenders To whom k Prud. in Hym. de S. Laur. vi Aug. ser de S. I aur Ambros lib. 1. off cap. 4. lib. 2. off 28. Leo serm in die S. Laur. Prudentius a man that had been Consull in Rome about 1200. yeares ago prayed in this wise O most glorious seruant of Christ what power is giuen thee and what authoritie is graunted vnto thee in heauen the great ioy of the Romanes doe sufficiently shew vpon the obteining of such requests as they make vnto thee Amongst the which number I beseech thee mercifullie giue eare to me thy rude Poet that doth confesse vnto thee my sinfull thoughts also disclose my wicked actions heare benignly I pray thee me thy humble suppliant Prudentius that hath highly offended Christ my Sauiour On our side l Metaph. Ambros ser 90. tom 3. lib. 1. de Virg. Ado. Tae in martyr Euseb 8. Hist 27. were those most blessed virgins S. Cecilia S. Agatha S. Anastasia S. Barbara S. Agnes S. Lucia S. Dorethy and S. Katherine who constantly kept their vowed chastitie against the tyrannie both of men and diuels S. Helen was on our side who was most famous for the finding of the crosse of Christ S. Monocha the mother of S. Augustine was on our side who when she lay on her death-bed most deuoutlie desired to be praid for after her death Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 8. Ex Aug. lib. 9. con cap. 7. vsque ad 1â— Hieroâ— in Epist Paul Hieroâ— in cap. Semp. Athanas Ambros in orat fut de Satyro Ioan. Diacon Seu. Sâ—lp Metaph. Grae. lib. 2. Dial. and to haue the * This was not the sacrifice of the Masse reade the answere sacrifice of the masse offred for her at Christs altar S. Paula was on our side who forsaking her faire pallace situated within the citie of Rome and her goodly farmes abroade in the Countrie went on pilgrimage by long iourneys euen vnto to the caue of Bethelem where Christ lay crying in his cradle there in solitarinesse to spend the residue of her time On our side was S. Paulus S. Hilarion S. Antony who liued in solitarinesse till they were old men On our side was Satyrus that was brother germain vnto S. Ambrose who carrying about him in a stole that dreadfull hoast and being in present danger of shipwrack hoping assuredlie that he would protect him lept into the raging sea and sâ—ome to land On our side were S. Nicholas and S. Martin who were both Bishops much exercised in watchings cloathed altogether in haire-cloth and fed with fasting On our side was S. Benet who was father vnto a great number of Monks Ten yeares were not long ynough for me to recite this infinite number of Saints neither do I heere make mention of them whom before I placed among the Doctors of the Church I do not forget my promise that I would passe ouer things as briefly as I could conuenientlie let him that would know more hereof peruse not only the large histories of auncient writers but also much more rather the graue authors which haue almost euery one of them written speciall bookes of the liues of the Saincts for a remembrance to their posteritie * And you of al those name me one Iesuit then let him tell me what his opinion is of those most auncient Christians Vide. 12. tom Surij and most blessed of whether religion were they of the Catholikes religion or of the Lutherans religion * After this manner Campian vseth to dispute I call to witnes the throne of God and that his tribunall seate before which I shall stand to render an accompt of these my ten reasons and of my said act in making my challenge that either there is no heauen at all which I and my adherents do detest or that it belongeth properlie to such only as are of our religion which thing we for our parts hold for sound doctrine Now on the contrary side if you thinke good let vs looke downe into hell Damnati where lye some burning in euerlasting fire Who the Iewes what Church are they against ours Who else the heathen What Church haue they most cruellie persecuted ours who besides these the Turks What Churches haue the pulled downe ours who yet the hereticks to what Church were they enemies to ours * The Catholike Church of which your Church is no part Forwhat Church I pray you hath
ouerthrowne all Europe and would haue occupied himselfe as busily in pulling downe of Altars and signes of Christs Crosse as euer Caluin was himselfe Wherefore they are our peculiar enemies Seeing that by our mens industrie hitherto they haue been kept backe from off Christian mens throates Let vs take a view of heretikes Haretici Clem. lib. 1. recog Iren. lib. 1. cap. 2. Cyp. Epist ad Iubatam l. 4. Epist 2. Theodoâ—o de fab haeret Aug. her 46. Epiph. haere 75. Socrat. lib. 2. c. 35. Hier. in Iou. Vigil Aug. her 82. which are the verie dregges and bellowes and fit food for hell fire The first that commeth into my mind is Symon Magus what did he * This is false reade the answere he tooke from man freewill he was still prating of faith only The next that I remember was Nouatian What of him he opposed himselfe to Cornelius the Pope of Rome He was an enemy to the Sacramets of Perance and holy Vnction Thirdly I thinke of Manes the Persian who taught that * He taught that Baptisme did auaile nothing at all Baptisme was not a sufficient meane to worke our saluation After him there started vp Aerius and Arian who condemned prayers for the only and was therefore forenamed the * This was Aetius not Aetius Atheist as well as Lucian was Then followed Vigilantius which would not permit men to pray vnto Saints and Iouinian who maintained marriage to be as excellent as virginitie Finally there came after all the whole rable of heretikes as Macedonius Pelagius Nestorius Eutyches Monothelites Image breakers and others to which number our posteritie will adde also Luther and Caluin what of all these Euery one of them like carion Crowes hatched al of one kind of egge rebelled against the chiefe rulers of our Church and by them were confounded and brought to naught Let vs now leaue speaking of hell to returne to the earth againe Terrae Sedes Apostolica Ep. 162. Whither soeuer I shall cast mine eies and incline my cogitation whether I behold the Patriarkes and Seas Apostolike or the Bishops of other countries or renowmed Princes and Emperours or the first entrance of Christian religion into euery nation or any monuments of antiquitie or the light of reason or the comely sight of honestie Vide Tert. de praesâ— Aug. lib. 2. de Doct. Christ cap. 8. I find that all of them doe dutiful seruice and speake fauourably for our religion witnes hereof the Romane succession In whose Church that I may say as doth S. Augustine * While Augustine liued the principaline of the Apostles chaire flourished in that Church But that apostolike chaire is long agoe ouerthrowne the principality of the Apostolike chaire hath euer been in force witnesses also hereunto are the seas of the rest of the Apostles to whom the name Apostolike most excellently agreeth Because they were first erected by the Apostles themselues or by those that heard them preach Witnesses also are the Pastors of euery Church throughout the wide world who Terra disiunctissima Hieron in cat scrip eccl alij though their abode was in diuers places yet our religion was common to them also As S. Ignatius and S. Chrysostome liued at Antioch S. Peter Alexander Athanasius and Theophilus at Alexandria Macarius and Cyril at Hierusalem Proculus at Constantinople Gregorie Basil at Capadocia Gregorie sirnamed Thaâ—maturgus in Pontus Polycarpus at Smyrna Iustinus at Athens Dionysius at Corinth Another Gregorie at Nissa Methodius at Tyrus Ephreenus in Syria Cyprian Optatus Augustine in Africke Epiphanius in Cyprus Andrew in Creet Ambrose Paulinus Gaudentius Prosper Faustus Vigilius in Italie Iâ—encus Martyrus Hilarius Eucherius Gregorie of Toures and Siluianus in France Vincentius Orosins Heldefonsus Leander and Isidorus in Spaine Fugatius Damanus Iustus Mellitus and Bede in England Finallie lest I should seeme ambitious in reckoning so many names what treatises or fragments of treatises so euer be extant of those as in the Primitiue Church preached the Gospell though in countries farre asunder yet all of them doe deliuer vnto vs one and the selfe-same faith * This is most false which we Catholikes doe at this present professe what cause good Christ could I alleadge before thee for my example but that thou mightest iustly exclude me altogether froÌ„ thy blessed company if I should prefer a number of hedge-creepers both few in account and also vnlearned diuided amongst themselues in opinions of a â—â—so loâ—â— beforâ— sâ—â—â—â—y * You ought not to hang your soule vpon men light â—â—â—â—pes of the Church Witnesses also are all Priâ—â—â—s Principes Kings Emperours and all their Câ—â—â—â—-weales the godlinesse of which Princes themselues Vide Câ—p. To◠〈◊〉 de sâ—â—ctis and also the people vnder their iurisdiction and their good gouernment both in times of peace and of marres haue at the first grounded themselues vpon this sound rocke of our Catholik doctrine What famous men out of the East might I heere recite vnto you that beare the name of Theodosius what worthy men out of the West of the name of Charles what Edwards out of England what Lewesses out of France what Hermingildes out of Spaine what Henries out of Saxony what Winceslaes out of Bohemia what Leopaldes out of Austria What Steuens out of Hungarie what Iosephats out of Indie And finally what noble gouernours of many Empires and Rulers of particular Countries throughout the whole world who by their good example by their force by their lawes by their continuall care by their charges haue maintained our Church For so hath Esay prophesied Esay 48. Kings shall be thy foster Fathers and Queenes shall be thy nurses Giue eare O Queene Elizabeth most mightie Princes to your Maiestie this great Prophet telleth this tale he teacheth you precisely what you haue to doe And I tell you plaine that one heauen cannot containe * You tell vs this thing most foolishly Caluine and these Peeres Let your Maiestie therefore take part with these honorable Princes that you may shew your selfe a condigne heire vnto your noble auncesters answerable vnto your excellent wit correspoÌ„dent to your profound knowledge worthie of high commendations and finallie fit for your royall dignitie Onely this I indeuour as touching your Maiestie and will indeuour whatsoeuer become of me against whom as though I were your deadly enemie these fellowes do so often threaten hanging on the gallowes ô welcome sweet crosse to me ô welcome I say ten thousand times sweet crosse of mine the day will come most soueraigne Lady and Queene Elizabeth euen that day I say will come which shall â—â—â—dently sâ—t before your Maiesties eyes whether of the two haue more sincerely loued you the * Shee hath long agoe and very sufficiently perceiued that how greatly your society hath loued her Fie away varlates societie of Iesuites or Luthers progenie Nationes ad Chriâ—â—â—â— traâ—â—â—â— I go forward there will
Councell is not only Loâ—hers iudgement but Gersons and Panormitans Page 111 24 The reasons why Protestants went not to the Councell of Trent Page 112 25 Iohn Husse burned at the Councell of Constance contrary to the Emperours warrant Page 112 26 No promise made by the Emperour or any secular Prince may hinder the proceedings of Ecclesinsticall Iudges nota 27 Ecclesiasticall Iudges that is the Councell is abone the Emperour Page 113 28 Luther goes to the Councell vpon the Emperours word Pag. 114 The summe of the fifth answere touching the Fathers 1 It is a foolish brag of Papists to challenge all the Fathers for theirs and to be on their side when there is nothing lesse Page 124 2 The popish Denys was not the Denys Areopagite whom Paul conuerted to the faith and his hierarchie as noueltie Page 124. 125 3 Ignatius they boast so much of was a counterfet Page 125. 126 4 The argument is weake Ireneus is challenged by Protestants to haue written something vnsoundly therefore he is altogether on the Papists side he errect about the time of Christs preaching baptisme and death he was a Millenarie Page 126 5 Clemens taught that Christ did neither hunger nor thirst and that he taught but 〈◊〉 veare And that the Philosophers in hellexpeâ—ted Christs comming and being taught by him beleeued Page 127 6 Tertullian in his booke of prescriptions hath many things against the Romish church Page 127 7 The popish Hippolytus is counterfeit and his booke of Antichrist which gesseth that the Diuell was Antichrist Page 127. nota 8 Caussaeus excused for his censure of Cyprian by Nazianzenes report of him what he was in his youth Page 128 9 Cyprian and other Fathers corrupted the doctrine of repentance making it a kind of satisfaction they detracted from the death of Christ and the power of it Page 129 10 Chrysostome Nazianzene Ambrose and Hierome are not wholy on the Papists side because Luther and others censured them in some things Page 130 11 Papists are not the children of the Fathers but as the Pharisies were of Moses and the Iews of Abraham Protestants reuerence the Fathers but acknowledge but one father which is in heauen nota 12 Beza did Hierome no wrong if Erasmus said true of his censuring of S. Paul for want of moderation in ansâ—ering the high Priest and imputing some wants to Christ Page 131 13 Hierome often much wresteth the scripture Page 132 14 It is lawfull to prefer one man in the truth before all Fathers and Councels in error Page 132 15 Lent fast though auncient yet was it not ordeined by Christ or his Apostles the manner of obscruing it not the same in all Churches Page 133. nota 16 What fasts Protestants allow the same iudgement they haue which Augustine hath who knew not Lentenâ—fast Pag. 134 17 The popish Monks are maruelous voluptuous and liue in sensualitie far vnlike those who haue beene Page 134 18 Reliques of Saincts not burned nor their funerals remoued but their superstitions iniurious to God and his glory Pag. 135 19 Augustine in his booke of freewill doth not establish it but sheweth that sinne commeth from mans freewill not from God and therefore intitled his booke so Page 136 20 The Papists and Pelagians differ not much in freewill Pag. 137. nota 21 Necessitie is not opposite to the freedome of Will but to force and compulsion man lost not his will but the qualitie of it nota 22 Augustine esteemed much of antiquitie vnitie and succession if sincere wisdome and truth went with them else he preferred truth before them so do Protestants Page 138 23 Optatus confuted Donatists by the communion of the Catholique Church so are schismatikes to be delt with but not from the now Romish church which is no true church Pag. 138. 139 24 Anthonie and other Hermites like him haue not successors like themselues He accounted a Monastery for a Monke as water is to fish Page 140. nota 25 Prudentius vsed a poeticall libertie in his deuotions to Saincts Page 140. nota 26 Praying to Saincts had gotten great footing in the Church when Ambrose liued and he and other Fathers were corrupted by it Page 141. nota 27 Gregorie without any warrant called Images lay mens bookes Page 141 28 It is lawfull to breake downâ— Images by warrant of the word and examples in it and in the stories of the primitiue Church nota 29 Not Protestants but Papists reiect oftentimes the testimonie of the Fathers and flye to Councels pag. 142. Then Campians argument is not good Protestants reiect some things in the Fathers therefore they reiect their whole volumes for if it be good it will fall vpon themselues Page 142 30 Protestants haue reason to prohibite popish bookes being full of sedition and horesie specially seeing in Queene Maryes time they executed martiall lawe vpon any that had the bookes of Protestants Page 143 31 Bishop Iewel proued all the auncient Fathers to be against the church of Rome in disputing with Harding as he had assumed at the Crosse Page 144. 145 The summe of the sixt Answere touching the foundation of the Fathers 1. Campians reason is weake The Fathers haue studied the scriptures diligently and preferred them before all other writings therefore their exposition of them is sound and good not to be reiected without sinne Page 150 2 Hierome and Augustine dissent about the exposition of Gal. 2.11 Page 151 3 Not only euery particular Fathermaâ—erre but all of one age haue erred in a particular of setting vp Images in the Church Page 150 nota 4 Augustine Innocent and other Bishops thought it neceâ—sary the Eucharist should be giuen to infants Page 151. nota 5 Papists leaue the scriptures and search out and follow after mens inuention Page 152 6 The Papists allow the learned only to reade them but Christ commandeth all Page 152. nota 7 It is prooued against Duraeus that Christ hath commanded the simple to reade the scriptures and hath left to them the bookes of the scriptures Page 152. nota 8 Protestants will subscribe to the Fathers so far as they keepe them to the scriptures Page 153 9 Denys is against the priuate Masse Page 160 10 Priuate Masses cannot profit the absent Page 160. nota 11 In Iustine Martyrs time they gaue to the people both the bread and wine ibid. 12 Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter and denies that any appeales should be made to the Bishop of Rome ibid. and pag. 161. nota 13 Lactantius denies that true religion and Images can stand together ibid. 14 The heathen worshipped not their Images but the Gods expressed by them ibid. nota 15 Athanasius maketh the scriptures sufficient ibid. 16 Epiphanius condemneth all worshipping of the virgin Mary ibid. and pag. 162 17 The Papists do worship and offer vp sacrifices to the virgin Mary and other Saints Page 162. nota 18 Basil saith in his time the prayers of the Church were in a knowne tongue ibid.
offended with Basil Naziancene Leo and Chrysostome which haue published excellent Sermons of Lent Christ ordeined no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospell k DVR Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers and knoweth not this to be salfe for the obseruation of Lent is most auncient and ordained by the Apostles WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most auncient but not instituted by the Apostles for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made lawes for let and certaine fasts and Tertullian when hee was become a Montanist writeth as much in his booke wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus Againe the Apostles neuer put any religion in choise and change of meats Rom. 14.17 Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1 1â— and so ordeined not Lene Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast both in their times in their kinds of meat as Eusebius â—ocrates record which would neuer haue bin if it had bin Apostolical at least as Papists do affirme who take in for a truth that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees Lent was appointed long after and the manner of obseruing it in those times was not one the same in all Churches We both allow and vse publike and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions as for your appointed and yearely solemne fasts we do with good reason reiect them because they are full of superstition and iniurious vnto Christian liberty Our iudgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught August Epist 86. I find it not set downe in any Commandement of the Lord or his Apostles what daies we ought to fast what not Augustine then knew not these your set yearely ceremonies of fasting not your Lenten fast which hath a certeine time and number of daies prescribed Further you say they that haue set their soules to sale for gold lust excesse and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil Chrysostome Hierome and Augustine whose bookes of the profession of Monkes are in euery mans hands what will you censure all to be couetous lustfull gluttonous or ambitious that are not Monkes backe with that foot you were best for feare of your head for neither the Pope nor his Cardinals and Bishops hold it either necessary or conuenient for them to lay aside their abundant wealth continuall pleasures their dainty fare their kingly honor and thrust themselues into a Monasterie whosoeuer liueth after their fashion cannot be well affected to Basil nor any man that is holy l DVR VVhen you are ouercome by the truth you slander our liues and speake euill of our persons WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you nor detract from you the world hath vnderstood long agoe what manner of men you vvere If you be grovvne better I should be glad of it But I knovv men haue iudged othervvise of this order and such as did not hate your Monasticall life For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did vvrite thus to the Pope himself There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men for many are so deformed and out of order that they are a great scandale to the people and hurt much by their example VVe thinke that all orders ought to be abolished For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excesse making themselues drudges vnto their ambitions banquets and delights And to conclude in the whole course of their liues so behauing themselues as becommeth better sensuall and voluptuous persons proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures then graue teachers out of Christs Schoole Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame vpon you and hath done continually and most deseruedly you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault your Prelates and Monkes whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline you report differ as much from other men as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue thought their life the only true life Such is and hath bin your life that others must seeme not to liue if that be to liue which you haue esteemed But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting but you goe on and vpbraide vs with fouler matters They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will which haue taken away Christian funerals which haue burned Saints reliques can they say you be well pleased with Augustine we Campion haue wronged no Saints we haue neither burned their reliques nor taken away their funerals m DVR Therefore you haue taken away the reliques of the Saints and the funerals of Christians as superstitions and iniurious to the maiestie of God WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so vvithout iudgement that you cannot distinguish betvvixt things and the superstitious vse of them It is not these not any comely buriall vve dislike but Popish pompcions funerals and impious vvorshipping of reliques only we could not suffer any prophane superstition iniurious to the Maiestie and glorie of God and for this we haue the direction of God himselfe being our patterne whom we follow and Augustine also herein consenteth with vs But we haue captiuated the will of man and then you say how can we be well affected vnto Augustine well inough why not for say you he writ three bookes of free will A most witles and ridiculous collection Augustine writ three bookes of freewill ergo Augustine affirmeth that men haue freewill If that reason be currant then this also Augustine writ a booke of two soules against the Manichees also a booke of lying another of the quantity of the soule ergo Augustine defendeth two soules in a man ergo he praised lying ergo he attributeth greatnes quantity to the soule I pray you what difference is there I graunt Augustine writ those bookes you mention but they ouerthrow not our opinion who affirme that the will of man is in bondage if euer you had perused those bookes you would neuer haue affirmed it nor once named the bookes in this matter Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill which is the point in controuersie but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill and he entituled those bookes of freewill because in them he intendeth to shew that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill not in God This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations for thus he writeth Retract lib. 1.1 q. The discourse was vndertaken for them that deny sin to haue his originall from the free action of our will affirming that from this
euer flourish But it is nothing to vs and you Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion the maintainer of the true faith and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches no maruell then though the most holy Fathers esteemed much the reuerence of this Church vrged the heretikes with the example of it Irenaeus August as a great preiudice vnto them Hence it is that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome therby prouing that the heresies by them refuted were not heard of in the most famous and honorable Church But since that time the course of the Church is turned and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith to detestable falshood Restore vs Campian the old Church of Rome and we will neuer separate our selues from her but of that Church you haue nothing left but the walles and old rubbish yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church And whereas you mention Altars on which the members of Christ are carried and Chalices containing his blood I know well many things concerning Altars are to be found in the auncient Fathers which Altars in Africa were not of stone but r DVR VVhat difference is there the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany and you Altars of stone WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament but the ordination of Bishops which yet was lawfull we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry Is there no difference thinke you woodden as you may see in Augustines Epistle to Boniface and I graunt the members of Christ and his Å¿ DVR Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe as is vsuall in all Sacraments For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father where it shall remaine to the end of the world blood are receiued in the holy mysteries but after a heauenly and spiritual manner Epist 50. appropriate vnto our most holy faith As for your deuouring of flesh Optatus was not acquainted with it and the auncient Church of Christ not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster They sing say you in their Churches the Creed of Athanasius but they fauour him not and why because he praiseth Antony the Hermit You speake wisely as t DVR But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage as for fishes to leaue the water If you praise Antony so much vvhy do you not follovv him vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse as fishes swim in the Sea so should you be more like to Antony and free these parts from great damage though we were so enuious that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised nay there is somewhat else Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2. He with his Synode of Alexandria humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea this Epistle is all counterfeit compacted of many lies and monstrous flattery Prudentius I grant as a u DVR Because he was a Poet forgate hee to be a Christian or did he any thing in verse which infinit learned â—athers haue not done before in prose WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required more then vvhat piety called for and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord Poet sometimes called vpon the Martyrs whose acts he describes in verse and the superstitious custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error As for Vigillantius and Iouinian against whom Hirrâ—â—â—â— writeth most bitterly if they taught those things that are laid to their charge we maintaine them not That * DVR It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers What gaine you by this if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church coÌ„sumed it the beginnings of corruptions in them is growne to an height in you without hope of cure Ambrose should be carefull to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius we willingly permit Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended then we But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes hee neither learned in x DVR Answere me in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images not in the schooles of Christians but of Iewes WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost Deut 5.8 Iosh 24.23 where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship and to cast out of the Church to breake and burne the Images of men though neuer so holy Moses beate the Calfe to powder the holy Ghost commended Hezâ—â—â—a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent though it was set vp by Godâ— authority when the Israelits abused it to superâ—â—â—ion how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images monuments of cursed idolatrie Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia who tooke downe broke the Images of his time I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of
fellowes digged out of their graues to helpe you in your desperate cause heare me Campian that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity offering also to yeeld you the victory if you brought one plaine and manifest authority out of any Father or Councell that same we do all professe and promise and will surely performe it Twentie yeares are expired and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto then your masters before haue had why stay you why sit you still why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause But alas you are no body you haue read nothing you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers or performed lesse then he promised but only that he had yeelded further vnto you then he needed and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures to the authorities of the Fathers which yet he did not as though he distrusted any thing the triall of Scriptures for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie which preuailed with many You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with Toâ—y Matthew and wâ—â—led him to answere freely whether hee that read the Fathers diligently could bee of that part which â—e fauoured Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things which we would not haue further reported or dispersed yet I doubt not but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere as was both agreeable to the truth and fit for his iudgement and wisdome Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers nor doth our faith depend vpon their word Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others yet may we reade them by their truthes be more learned by the contrary more wary And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers And this also is all our opinions After you haue thus finished your discourse you will now as you say without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies skirmishes warres campes and of your battailes but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides and the issues of battailes vncerteine The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes not in the stoutnes of words EDMVND CAMPIAN The sixt Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers IF euer that saying a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures was loued and liked of by any which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies and from destruction by their paines and teachings haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting with holy Scriptures And finally they exercised themselues euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors vppon the common practise of the Church vpon the succession of Bishops vpon generall Councels vpon Traditions of the Apostles vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs vpon the decrees of Preâ—â—â—s vpon strange signes and marnâ—â—â—â—us â—â—â—racles yet their greatest desire was especially to fill their treatises with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures These they vrge vpon these they make their habitation to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place like noble captaines daily desending the Catholike Church which is the citie of God by them kept in good repaire against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie the which thing maketh me the more to maruell at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures Doth he speake as he thinketh I will see then that these most famous writers most auncient Fathers and most holy men Saint Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ with the Prophets with the Apostles and with the whole furniture of the Bible Grant good Lord that that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England which those Fathers did had and defended raigne in England I say good Christ grant that that religion may raigne in England that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures Looke what Scriptures they bring wee will bring the same looke what Scriptures they conferre we will conferre the same looke what Scriptures they alleadge we will alleadge the same Art thou also contented with this cough out Sir a Gods name and tell me plainly what you thinke I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly what meanest thou by saying rightly ô now I know after thy owne fancy Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing Then for as much as I am in good hope that in the foresaid Vniuersities that most freshly flourish there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies not grosely but with sharpe iudgement and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially but in equall ballance I will therefore with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility force of Christs Church against a monkesâ— multitude of ragged Rogues WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the sixth Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers I Cannot wel coÌ„iecture Campion what these new foundations of the fathers may bee which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere and haue plainely prooued that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpoÌ„ And it is probable that you thought so your self therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the
impossibilities that al men may perceiue they were ascribed to vs by you most falsly and most impudently I do craue not only of all men of our Vniuersities but also of all ChristiaÌ„s that haue care of true religion and of their owne saluation that they will not suffer themselues to be misled by any lies and impostures of the aduersarie from that holy doctrine which they haue learned Wherefore I will set vpon these your monsters Campian that after I haue stopt your mouth being ful of blasphemy both the glory of God which is in hand and our innocency which is oppugned may be preserued from your violence You say the disputation shall be if they please of God of Christ of Man of Sinne of Righteousnes of the Sacraments of Manners But we are readie to dispute with you not only about these but also about other points which are now in difference of the Scripture of the Church of the Bishop of Rome of Transubstantiation of Freewill of Indulgences of Purgatorie and of the rest of your doctrines Neuerthelesse either many are deceiued or else you do rather thinke of fighting then disputing And I hope that you shall once haue freedome granted you for that disputation which you so often desire But now let vs attend how you endeuour to make vs know these positions of our men God say you is the willing Of God suggesting efficient commaunding and working author and cause of sinne and such a one as therein gouerneth the impious counsels of the wicked It is an horrible thing and not to be vttred Campian that any one should make God the author of sinne such an one were worthy to be smitten instantly by the Lord with a thunderbolt into the deepest pit of hell If a DVR But if I do not shew that Caluin is the maintainer of this so horrible ablasphemy I refuse no punishment for so great a slaÌ„der thus he writeth Instit lib. 1. cap. 18. sect 1. Absolom defiling his fathers bed with incest committed a detestable crime yet God pronounceth that this was his worke WHIT pag. 525. I wonder that there is any maÌ„ found like to Campian who will â—uow that to be said and defended by our men which they haue euer most plainly condemned as Melanct. on Rom. 1. c. Pet. Mart on Iudg 9. and Caluin on Iam. 1. vers 13. Beza against Castellio of eternall predestination for touching these words which you obiect to Caluin what doth he affirme but that which the Scripture hath deliuered 2. Sam 12.11.12 vnlesse perhapâ— you will deny that to be Gods deed which God himselfe witnesseth to be his Neither will your sophisme follow hereupon ergo God is the author of sin for Caluin ascribeth not the sinne but the worke to God For if in that incest you can consider nothing but sinne it must bee imputed to your ignorance Caluin or Martyr or Philip or Luther or any of vs do affirme it I do not denie but we are all guilty of horrible blasphemie and impiety If I would largely prosecute this whole cause which you doe but touch I should make no end therfore I will declare in few words both what we teach and wherein you lie We professe not only that God is good but also goodnes it self yea good in himself in his owne esseÌ„ce in whom there is no euill from whom nothing but good can come who is so good that all his doings be very good and that not so much as any of his thoughts can be euil These things we speake these things we teach these things we beleeue with our harts and confesse with our mouthes Seeing therefore God is so perfectly good that all his things be in a certaine excellent manner good it hath been in times past inquired and most grauely disputed wheÌ„ce that euil sprung which had spread so far what might be the cause of this euill This question Augustine often handled because of the Mâ—nichies In 12. quest 79. art 1. 2. and therein also Thomas of Aquine imployed himselfe much and diligently Wee say that this euill was brought in by the b DVR But Caluin saith that when the Diuel moueth men to sinne hee is rather the instrument of God than thâ— author oâ— sinne Instit lib. 2. cap. 4. Ser. 5. WHIT pag. 528. This allegation is full of slander This is Caluins meaning that albeit the Diuell be rather an instrument than the author of the action yet hee is the supreme and chiefe of the sinne in the action Diuell who although hee were made good in the beginning by the Lord yet by his freewill he made defection from the Lord and sinned â—nd did perswade and was the author vnto man to commit sin from hence whatsoeuer is sin either in the diuels or in men did wholy flow and not any the least peece of it had being from God whom we do maintaine by infinite testimonies of Scripture to be the author of no c DVR But what is more often in the mouth of Caluin all Caluinists â—hen this that God doth not only permit but will sinne that he doth moue and thrust vs forward to sinne nay that be doth by the efficacie of his will impose a necessity of sinning vpon vs WHIT. pag. 529. God willeth sinne but not simplie and so farre forth as it is sinne but as it is a chastisement so 1. Pet. 4.19 and God doth stirre vp and moue that sinne which lieth hidde in vs yet he doth not frame or put sinne into vs as the Physitian is not the author of dâ—seases when he purgeth out the most corrupt humours And man not indued with the holy Ghost falleth of his ovvne accord into a necessity of sinning so as he sinneth not by any fault of God but by his ovvne fault sinne and so do teach it in our schooles and Churches Psal 44. Zach. 8.17 Gen. 18.25 1. Ioh. 1.5 For he hateth sin he loueth righteousnes he which is the Iudge of the whole earth it must needs be that he is euery way most iust God is light and there is no darknes in him And these are the things which wee teach the people concerning God that all may vnderstand hee is a most seuere reuenger of all sinnes Now then Campian with what face dare you seeing you know these to bee our doctrines impute vnto vs such a slaÌ„der not to be vttred in so much as you affirme that we speake and thinke things flat contrary But you say Caluin and Martyr haue taught this this thing Nay rather they are wholy bent vpoÌ„ this that they maintaine that can by no meanes bee It would be long to set down their words I do beseech the Reader to reade with an attentiue and peaceable mind these same very places which Campian hath abused vnto slander And if they doe not both deny most plainly that God is the author and cause of sin and also if they do not proue that they
meates and prescribed obseruation of daies Apoc. 5. because the Prophet highly commendeth a spirituall fast Esay 48. I wil speake a few words both of the one and other that I may cleerly quit vs of this crime of Homonymie Saint Iohn alone hath not named all p DVR By this argument you may as well proue the Iewes had no Priests properly so called WHIT. pag. 809. Not so for the Lord ordained such a Priesthood amongst them which he hath not amongst Christians Christians Priests 1. Pet. 2.5.9 but S. Peter also hath tearmed them a holy and a royall Priesthood and this name is in no place of the new Testament q DVR So the name Sacrament is neuer giuen to Baptisme nor to the Eucharist in the New testament WHIT. pag. 810. But the substance of it agreeth to them both and is there whereas the name Sacerdos a Priest is not in the nevv Testament nor doth the thing it selfe properly belong to any but Christ since his death DVR Yea Christ instituted a sacrifice in his Supper and where a sacrifice is there is a Priest also WHIT. pag. 810. Christ ordeined theÌ„ no sacrifice but only a Sacrament of a sacrifice DVR Esay calleth the Mâ—nisters of the Gospell Priests cap. 6â— 6 66.21 WHIT. Esay in the first place speaketh of all Christians and in the second of Ministers in the phrase of that time vvhence also you may as well say Deacons are Leuites vvhich you vvill not say they are propeâ—ly DVR Ministers are needlesse except they be Priects and as mediators betwixt God and men vnto saluation and your Ministers are but Lay-men WHIT. pag. 810. â—15 They must preach the Word and administer the Sacraments but not offer sacrifice of mediation betwixt God and men as you say you do in the Masse to do these we haue a calling ordeined of Christ for your sacrifice you haue none DVR The Apostles name them not Priests because they are not of the order of Aaron but the Fathers call them Priests who knevv the Apostles mâ—aâ—ing and you call them Priests in English WHIT pag. 812. Christ only is a Priest after the order of Melchisedecke Heb. 7.3 so then there be no Priests at all you confesse the Fathers call them so by custome but not properly the Apostles of purpose abstaining froÌ„ the name of Priests might teach vs hereafter better vvisdome to do so also properly applied to the Ministers of the Gospell For Christ being made an high Priest for euer after the order of Melchisedech hath no copartners of this r DVR True for it is Christ that presenteth himselfe in the sacrifiâ—e vve onely are as ministers WHIT. p. 814. If you be Ministers only then are you not properly Priests why then will you be so called DVR Yet vve as truely sacrifice as baptise WHIT. Thus you will be Ministers only and no Priests nor be copaâ—tners in Christs sacrifice yet you will bâ— tearmed Priests and truly sacrifice these be contraries and cannot stand together yea meere madnes and dotages Priesthood therefore Christ hath left vnto his Churches a Ministerie and not a new Priesthood Neither doth there remaine to vs Å¿ DVR Thus you strippe the Gospell of all sacrifice and â—eligion WHIT. pag. 816. 817. All your religion by this your doctrine is in your Masse which we willingly haue not but notwithstanding we haue the sacrifice of Christ which is perpetuall and inchangeable Heb. 7 2â— 28 and 10.14 your inuisible sacrifice the Scripture knoweth not any such sacrifice for the administration whereof some speciall Priests must needs be authorised For that sacrifice of praise and doing good Hebr. 13.15.16 which the Apostle mentioneth and which now remaineth onely that I say appertaineth indifferently to all Christians Notwithstanding we permit none to execute the administration of this ministery which Christ would haue to be perpetuall in his Church but them whom it concerneth and who are by due order t DVR VVho called Luther Caluin Beza c. your Ministers WHIT. pag. 820. Luther Zuinglius Bucer c. were Priests of your owne and so had a calling except your order of Priesthood be no calling and might call others by your law Againe God is not tied so to order but that he may for the good of the Church call Ministers extraordinarily And the Churches haue lavvfull povver to chuse Ministers so that we need not to call any from you that seruice as saith Cyprian Epist. 68. Thus were Caluiâ— and Beza chosen called thereunto Albeit then Christ haue made vs all both Kings that we might be able to subdue our sinnes and Priests that we might offer him spirituall sacrifices notwithstanding as it is not lawfull for euery man to dreame of a kingdome so it is a thing detestable for any man to enter vpon the holy Ministery who hath not that function committed vnto him by diuine authoritie Wherefore I see not at all why you should charge vs with any such Homonymy or falshood from ambiguous signification in this word As for your maner of fasting that indeed is wholly in shew and hath nothing in it of a Christian fast but the very name For to make choyce of meates as a thing more religious and to prescribe certaine and perpetuall set dayes wherein we must necessarily fast the u DVR This sauoureth of Luthers spirit but Pope Leo saith that the holy Ghost taught the Apostles the disciplâ—ne of fasting for one of the chiefe Sacraments of heauenly doctrine WHIT. pag. 8â—1 c. Wee allow Christian fasting but vvhat spirit taught Leo to say so of your solemne superstitious fasts the Scriptures speake no such thing which wee preferie before all mens iudgements one is witlesse the other superstitious For what man which is not depriued of iudgement and all sense will thinke that he fasteth who so that he abstaine x DVR No Catholike euer said that the force of fasting consisteth in only abstinence from flesh WHIT. pag. 822. All men know that you call your abstinence from flesh in Lent in the Ember daies the Saint Eues c. fasting and that he who then eateth â—â—sh and other meate in abundance in not said amongst you to violate his fast but if one doe but tast flesh you esteeme him a grieeuous malefactor DVR But Elisha Daniel Iohn Baptist made religious choise of meates vvhich you thus call madnes yea Daniel absteined from flesh and vvine to apprease Gods anger vvhose example teacheth vs also to absteine from daintier meates in time of fasting as the Church hath long accustomed WHIT. pag. 823. These holy men did not fast as you doe and teach for Elisha fed the Prophets with wild and bitter herbes not for religion sake but in time of fâ—â—mine for want of other victuall 2. King 4.39 and Daniel absteined not from some only but from all desireable meates Dan. 10.3 not to appease Gods anger as you say
professed themselues Christians if they were Christians they were ours But Helen say you was ours who is euery way famous for finding the crosse of Christ That which Ambrose reports of Helen is very suspitious and Golasius Bishop of Rome calleth these things that were bruted of the inuention of the crosse Dill. 15. Sanct. Romana new reuelations But graunt that Helen found the Crosse for it is not greatly materiall Did she adore it for that is to the purpose Heare what Ambrose saith She found the stile Ambros in Orat. suneb Theodos she worshipped the King not the wood certainly for this is a heathenish error and a vanity of the wicked Wherefore though she found the Crosse that is no reason to prooue her yours seeing she worshipped not the crosse as you do for not finding but adoring of the l DVR VVee giue not Latria diuine worship to the Crosse WHIT pag. 868. The distinction vvill not excuse you for you reach that the Crosse and the Image of Christ is to bee worshipped with Latria or diuine worship Thom. 3. part 25. q. act 3. 4. which is so horrible and pernicious that it exceedeth all the superstition of old Idolaters Crosse makes a Papist Monica is ours who at her death desired they should pray and offer sacrifice for her at Christes altar Monica desired not that the m DVR Shee desired to be sacrificed for and what other sacifice is there but the sacrifice of the Altar to take away the hand a ritiue against vs. WHIT. pag. 870. That I haue answered in Augustines 〈◊〉 words Confess lib. 9. cap. 13. hee only desired to bee remembred at the Altar It was a custome in the Church to make honorable mention of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles the Virgin Mary the Martyrs and Confessors whom they neuer thought to be tormented in Purgatorie but your Masse is offered for those whom you thinke as yet not to be freed from that fire and to be in heauenly ioyes And what a kind of sacrifice it was Augustine sheweth in the same place saying Thy hand mayden kuit her soule by the bond of faith to the Sacrament of that price of our redemption He calleth then the Eucharist a sacrifice which taketh away the hand-writing against vs because it is the Sacrament of that sacrifice sacrifice of the Masse should be offred for her for the forgiuenes and expiation of her sinnes neither did Augustine either pray or offer for his mother in this manner The desire of Monica was only this that at the celebration of the Eucharist there might alwaies be a remembrance of her insomuch as she assured herselfe she was one of the heauenly societie and communitie of saints Augustine indeed prayed for his mother I denie not but this his fact proceeded more of affection to his mother then for any necessitie And the custome of prayer for the dead which preuailed in many places was not deriued from the authoritie of the scriptures but only from an excessiue kind of loue and reuerence of them that liued towards their friends that were dead But that Augustine neuer beleeued his mother to be in Purgatory that his prayers might releeue her there it is manifest for thus he saith Forgeue her Lord forgiue her I beseech thee August confess lib. 9. cap. 13. enter not into iudgement with her ô Lord yea ô Lord I beleeue thou hast already graunted that which I desire but accept ô Lord the freewill offrings of my mouth But if we should graunt that both Augustine and his mother went a little awry you cannot heere inferre that either of them are yours for so much as we are not to giue censure of the Fathers in greatest causes by one particular iudgement but by their continuall and constant opinion You annex hereunto Paula and Paulus Hilarian and Authony I could recken sixe hundred Monks like vnto these whereof not one was a Papist none of them yours All these were Christians louing solitarines that they might more quietly intend the meditation of heauenly things Compare not your Monks with these which are of an other sort and sect of Monks These were holy painefull faithfull full of good works yours are impure idle idolatrous deuourers hogges oxen asles how are those like But how shall it appeare vnto vs that Satyrus the brother of Ambrose was yours Being in danger he leaped into the sea and swimming escaped by the strength of his faith A goodly reason he was a good smimmer ergo n DVR But which of you did any such thing armed thing armed with the Caluinist Supper WHIT. pag. 872. And which of you armed with the Host durst cast himselfe into the sea vnlesse he had learned first to swimme And at that time Satyrus was not only saued but also others who had not the Host yours other pretence you make none Why Nicholas and Martinus should be yours you shew no cause for wearing haire-cloth fasting and watching are no marks of your Bishops Benedict say you was the founder and father of the Monkish profession therefore without doubt he must be yours I could be content to leaue him as too superstitious yet can you not prooue that he was yours or fauoured your religion in all or the most things Heere you say you passe ouer thousands Francis I thinke you meane and Dominicke and those huge swarmes of white Friers and blacke Friers I freely bequeath them vnto you and willingly suffer you to enioy them and all such as were like them They were not of that worth that we should need greatly to striue about them You passe ouer the Doctors in silence which you formerly remembred wherein I commend your wisedome seeing to them you can make no claime without doing them too apparant wrong You demaund of all those before recited whether they were Catholicks or Lutheranes to which I will answere when you haue shewed how Lutheranisme dissenteth froÌ„ true Catholick religion Luther taught no new doctrine he restored and mainteined the auncient Catholicke faith What though he was vnknowne vnto those auncient Fathers as being himselfe of later yeares yet the doctrine he brought was Euangelicall and Apostolick which you had welnigh extinguished which he restored to his former beautie and perfection Answere me Campian this one thing of all those you haue named what one was a o DVR But all these did euer consent in faith and differed only in such things which might be disputed vvithout any hazard of faith WHIT. pag. 873. Be it granted they did agree in matter of faith vvhy then do they not follow all one rule But S. Paul reproued the Corinthians agreeing in faith because they attributed to their Ministers more then was meete vvhilest one had deuoted himselfe to S. Paul another to S. Peter another to Apollo What then shall be done to the Scotistes Thomâ—stes others are the names of Scotus Thomas Francis more holy and lawfull names in their disciples then the
himselfe which Iohn of Constantinâ—ple neuer once assayed to do Gregory telleth vs what he meaneth by vniuersall Bishop he vvho endeuoureth to bring into subiection to himselfe all the members of Christ by the title of vniuersall Whereby he toucheth home your Pope who subiecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head neither did euer any Emperour rule more tyrannously ouer his Kings and vassals then the Pope hath ouer the Bishops of all Churches vniuersall Bishop vndoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome Iohn of Constantinople being a proud man and very insolent and ambitious first challenged this vnto himselfe Gregory while hee liued earnestly and constantly withstood him And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople and giuen to the Bishop of Rome Leaue trifling Campian and euen tell me plainely y DVR VVho seeth not in vvhat sense thâ—se Bishops of Rome vvould not this name vnto themselues though they alwaies professed them Bishops of the vniuersall and Catholike Church and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not meane to be vnderstood of any who speake on this manner but tell vs is the Pope vniuersall Bishop or no If he be how commeth the change that that which was Antichristian in the Patriarke of Constantinople by the iudgement of Pelagius Gregorie both Bishops of Rome should be Catholike and holy in the Pope For that which so insolently Iohn of Constantinople tooke vnto himselfe and enioyed for a while not long after Boniface the third earnestly tooke vnto himselfe and translated to his successors as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. Sabellicus Ennead 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca They then haue not only the thing but the name and so are Antichristian if that name in the Bishop of Constantinople was a signe of the approching of Antichrist why may wee not iudge it in the Bishop of Rome a notable ensigne of the same Antichrist now I haue giuen you a taste by which you may iudge other things you must either get you other fathers or for all these you must needes yeeld as ouercome Doe wee at length speake without riddles what is it you els desire of vs wherefore Campian get you into this campe and shew forth all your valour you shall verily finde you haue to deale not with naked and vnarmed beggars but with well appointed and well harnessed aduersaries EDMVND CAMPIAN The seauenth Reason which is the Historie THe auncient Histories of former times do plainly discouer the true forme of the Primitiue Church thither doe I appeale as for the auncient Historiographers Generales Historici whose authority all the aduersaries doe sometime vsurpe these are well nigh all of them Eusebius Damasus Hierome Ruffinus Orosas Socrates Sozomenus Theodoretus Cassiodorus Gregory of Tours Oswaldus Regino Marianus Sigibertus Sonoras Cedrenus Nicephorus What song I pray you doe these men sing a song in praise of Catholikes of their prosperous proceedings of their interchangeable alterations what enemies they had yea moreouer which I would haue you wel to mark these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake HareticoruÌ„ Chronica Historica Anno Dom. 1500. to wit Philip Melangthon Pantalion Functius and the Magdeburgeans when they went about to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiasticall History they should haue had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. yeares after Christ except they had gathered together the acts of those men that take our part and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church Consider also the particular Historiographers of some speciall countries Historici certarum Gentium who bended themselues curiously and busily to search out the speciall affaires of euery such people as they vndertooke to write of These as men desirous by all meanes they possibly could to enrich and beautifie that worke they had in hand omitted not so much as banquetting feasts or long sleeued coates or strange haftes of daggers or gilded spurres and such like trifles but they made mention thereof if it had any smacke of noueltie These men doubtlesse if there had been any alteration in religion or any digression from their former faith which was in the Primitiue Church that had come to their eares many of theÌ„ would haue recorded it if not many yet some few of them at the least if not some few yet some one or other doubtlesse would haue made mention thereof * This is false for many haue made mention of the corruption of the Church But no body at all neither friend nor foe made any muttering or gaue any inkling of any such matter As for example sake the aduersaries grant because they cannot otherwise chuse that the Church of Rome was once an holy Catholike and Apostolike Church euen then when it deserued these commendations of a Rom. 1. S. Paul Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world I cease not to remember you in my prayers I b Rom. 15. know that when I come vnto you I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of c Rom. 16. Christ All the Churches of Christ do greet you for your obedience is spread abroad in all places Then also when S. Paul hauing free d Act. 28. liberty of the prison there preached the Gospell abroad Then also when S. Peter gouerned the Church gathered together long agoe in that Citie of Rome which hee called by the e 1. Pet. 5. name of Babylon * Campian acknowledgeth that Rome is Bayblon The wheÌ„ that same S. f Hieron in cap. semp Eccl. Papias apud Eâ—sâ—b 2. Hist. 15. Clement whom the g Philip. 4. Apostle so highly commendeth was chiefe head of that Church then also when h Fren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Inst lib. 4. cap. 2. num 3. in Epist ad Sadol vide Coâ—l in Anno 1523. Heathen Emperours as Domitian Nero Traiane and Antonius most cruelly murthered the Bishops of Rome Then also * This is false Caluin testifieth no such thing Caluin himselfe doth witnes * This is false Caluin testifieth no such thing when Damasus Syticius Anastasius and Innocentius were gouernours of the Sea Apostolike For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swarued especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospell At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul when fainted faith which before so flourished In what age vnder what Pole vpon what occasion by whose compulsion by whose power hath a new strange Religion inuaded not only that citie of Rome but the whole world besides what outcries what rufflings what weeping and wailing hath it caused were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleepe while Rome I say Rome brought forth
new Sacraments new sacrifice and new doctrine of religion There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke neither abroad nor at home which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter though it had been neuer so slenderly Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity and the life of memory do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme that that faith which the aduersaries do thrust vpon vs was 〈◊〉 allowed in the Catholike Church then are all the Historiographers on our part and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous and such as can make no man afraid except it bee first granted that all Christians throughout euery age haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell vntill that Frier Luther committed aduoutrie with the Nunne Katherine Bore WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the seauenth Reason which is the Historie NOw you call vs to Historie the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie their names you set downe and like dumbe showes you carry them in great pompe as though Campian the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie What insolent new kind of Logicke is this to recken vp the Historians of the whole world and of particular countries and then conclude they are your owne Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon shall by and by become yours we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set downe and we find not that they fauour you more then vs. If in them be some things against vs many moe and more waightie testimonies they haue against you and such as giue you a deadlie wound else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie and diligentlie penning them exactlie and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times neither would wee haue published them in the world if they were so contrarie vnto vs as you surmise for who haue taken more paines to finde out or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories then our men without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories wee condiscend yet with this caution that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done but haue an eye to that which was then performed and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension rather than imitation and for the most part it happens that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ and euer the later writer the more corrupt But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions and very peruersly you slaunder vs that because wee doe not allowe all wee refuse all They that reforme what is amisse doe not blame the rest that is not faultie Striue while you list Campian and crie out of mazes and labyrinths at length will you nill you by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures And herein Campian you very much a DVR And vvhy may not Campian trumph for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies and yet you cannot tell vvhen one of them euer began in vvhat Popes time by vvhat meanes hovv it increased in the Church WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons not raylings But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt because wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt but being so manifest as it is what need we search the Histories to shew the beginning what I pray if you see a man sicke of the pestilence a citie corrupt with riote and wickednesse a house ruinous and readie to fall a shippe sincking will you deny all these vnlesse one can tell you the time when he began to be sicke the meanes how the city grew corrupt who vvas ovvnet and in vvhat yeare the house grevv ruinous and in vvhat daâ—e the shippe began first to leake And vvhat is the force of your reason and demaund other then this But doe not your owne Histories tell vvhen and by vvhom innouations and corruptions entred see a fevv of them Hee that first vsurped authoritie ouer other Churches vvas Pope Victor after him Zozimus Boniface Celestiue and theâ— successura Pope Syricius first foâ—bad Priests marriages The Manichies first denied the Cup to the people The Nicene Councell first ordained vvorshipping of Images Pope Nicolas the second first taught the bodie of Christ must carnally be handled broken and eaten Pope Jnnocent the third first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation Boniface the third that the Pope vvas the head of all Churches Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie first for a certeine truth The Florentine Councell that the Pope was aboue Councels Jnnocent the third brought in auricular confession If these vvere not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more triumph when you demaund at what time vnder what Bishop by what way and proceeding was a new religion spread ouer the Citie of Rome and the whole world and doe not doubt but that if any change and declining had been many writers would haue made mention of it or diuers or one at the least It is hard for vs to answere at what time neither is it necessarie to set downe the very instant of time All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome sinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees and by leisure to ripenes the haires of our head are not all gray of a suddaine neither doth any thing suddainely come to his maturitie and the growth of euery thing appeareth long after This is manifest in such things as hauing small beginning goe on forward vnto a greater quantitie vntill they come to perfection you cannot deny but there was a great alteration of Religion in the Church of b DVR It is not hard to knovv the heresies of the Ievves for Philastrius Epiphanius Iosephus haue vvritten of them WHIT pag. 484. It is as easie to know the heresies of Christians being more in the Christian Church then euer vvere in the Church of Ierusalem and of these also haue many bookes been vvritten Ierusalem what then was the change all at once shew vs then how those nouelties entred into the Church what time what way who