hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor 〈◊〉 that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs
as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ e It was expresly prophecied that whē the Messias should come he should worke such works and therefore it was necessary that he should work them and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men the like is not prophecied that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies therfore this is required at our hands without all reason And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse thē Christ if he had not done so manie miracles For we know no cause why you should be more priuiledged then Christ And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles that your liues are at the least as ill as ours f Thus to threatē you we may boldly without shame because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures to be the same that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discords and diuisions that one maie easilie gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde And as g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine shall finde the Manichees to whom he speaketh farre like◠you then vs. S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie if that be found with you it is more worth then al the rest and that you would be contented to try that by the scriptures as he was and then you would sure so many of you as haue any grace quickly ioyne with vs. I saie no more at this time but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken The XLII Chapter THere is no question of that but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe and the Lord giue both vs and you grace effectually so to doe But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne you know well enough that then they must neuer doe it For what company and society of men euer was there but therein was some bad as well as good As Adam had an Abel so had he a Caine. There was an Ismael as well as an Isaac in Abrahams house And Isaac had an Esau as well as a Iacob Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom one that looked backe And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas Yea Christ hath taught vs by the parable of the good seede and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies of bad with good But you charge vs further that amongst vs there are many kinde of vsuries and interests and that though one way we care not for your images yet we loue them so well an other way that we haue robbed your churches of them Whereunto my answere is that we cānot deny but there are too many amongst vs who by such vnlawfull meanes seeke to enrich thēselues and that there are too too many profane and carnall men that haue our religiō in their mouthes who by their lewd conuersation dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ we are most hartely sory for it and dayly pray vnto God for amendmēt thereof But this we must tell you that we preach against al sinne impiety whatsoeuer and namely against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of And our Religion and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing therefore we are wronged that in these things we generally or our religiō at al should be charged Surely many of our vsurers extreame dealing men amongst vs are either men of no Religion or yours rather then ours neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit that in those common weales vsury lieth dead and buried Sure I am your Popes haue beene for a long time the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world in that they haue sold their palles their lead and other their hallowed ware which are indeede trifles and thinges of no valewe for such summes of money and gold as they haue You flatly slaunder vs in saying that there are some of vs that affirme we are wholy without spot or sinne For we both detest that opinion and count them that should holde so euen worthy to be detested for their so holding Yet you say if it were so that ought not to moue you to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers What a sound ground of Religion forefathers without distinction is I haue shewed sufficiently already In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne to distinguish betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers the Apostles and their successours in doctrine and life in the primitiue church and the later forefathers and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further then they haue followed the former and then the danger of this dart is auoided And that it is reason we should follow them no further we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ But you haue a further reason not to be moued from your Religion for our life were it neuer so Godly because Christ though he was without sin and confirmed his doctrine both by the anciēt scriptures and Iohn Baptists testimony yet he saied that if he had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer mā did before him they had had no sinne Iohn 15.24 For hereof you gather that you may securely whatsoeuer we say vnto you or howsoeuer we liue refuse vs and our Religion and continue in your owne still as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles For you know no cause you say why we should be more priuiledged then Christ This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it Where I haue shewed you amōgst diuers other reasons that there was this especiall reasō that Christ should worke such miracles as he did to proue himselfe the Messias because expressely the Prophets had prophecied that he so should when he came which reason you cannot shew why now wee should work miracles For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess 2.
not amisse vnto my former answer to Iohn de Albine to annex this short answer thereunto His first signe of such as hee speaketh of hee saieth is their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Christ wherin they were baptized first receaued christiā faith and religiō and this to be such a signe he proueth out of the second chapter of S. Iohns first Epistle where he speaking of such saieth they departed frō vs but they were not of vs for if they had they would stil haue cōtinued with vs. Wherupon he thinketh that forasmuch as hee saieth wee cannot deny but that wee are the men that haue thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church faith and religion wherein we were first baptized and that wee cannot say that they haue so departed from vs they still remaining in the same church faith and Religion that they first receaued that of necessity we must be enforced to graunt that this signe agreeth to vs and not to them This good Christian that he hath saied were of fome force if he any or all his fellowes togither were euer able to proue that they their church faith and Religion were such as Saint Iohn spake of when he so taxed men for their departure therfrom but seeing onely most beggerly all the packe of them this being the maine question betwixt them and vs alwaies take this for graunted them euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it which we will neuer graunt them nor they shall euer be able to winne at our hands all that he hath saied herein is childish and vaine For we are alwaies most ready and willing to ioyne this issue with them for and about al the controuersies amongst vs that if we be not able by due conference of the Catholique and Apostolique doctrine taught by the Apostles Apostolicke men in the primitiue church testified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings with ours that we are of the same common knowen Catholique Church faith and Religion that they were and that the Romish Church in the thinges wherein wee differ from them is cleane departed from them and from the church of Christ her faith and Religion that then was that then we will as he saieth most willingly submit our selues yeelde and recant And I hope in answering of Iohn de Albine vpon occasion in sundry places I haue so shewed the agreeablenesse of our faith and Religion with the Apostles and the manifolde disagreements of the Church of Rome that nowe is from them and the ancient church of Rome planted by them as that euery one euen thereby sufficiently may see that not wee but they are the men that Saint Iohn spake of that haue departed from the true Church of Christ faith and Religion and that therefore this signe doeth so farre better agree to Papists then to vs that if this offerer will be as good as his worde hee must presentlie submit himselfe yeelde and recant In the meane time the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christs and his Apostles made manifest vnto vs by the view of the scriptures thēselues and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now and the ancient churches of Rome for sixe hundreth yeares after Christ at the least made likewise euident vnto vs by all sound monuments of antiquity haue assured vs that in respect of them and their Romish Synagogue in these later daies to embolden vs to doe as we haue God from heauen by an Angel saied vnto vs go out of her my people least you be pertakers of her sinnes and so receaue of her punishments Apoc. 18. vers 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham to follow the Lordes calling Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea and to forsake the abhominatiō thereof as it was wisedome for Lot at the admonition of the Angels to go out of Sodom Gen. 19. and as it was necessary that Christ and his should separate thēselues from the high Priests Scribes and Pharisees and their errours and superstitions though they then their followers bragged that they were the people of God his church so was it meete requisite for vs to depart as we haue from their Popish church and the popery thereof And as for our receauing our baptisme amongst them that bindeth vs no more to hold cōmunion with thē still in their false erronious religion then the receauing of circumcision bound Christ his Apostles those of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine to continue felowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptisme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās or any other such like bound thē that were baptised by such y◠they might not separate themselues frō such to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Christ Againe if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion whereof they were that baptized them why doe they labour by their Iesuits seminaries to seduce to their Religion such as we haue baptized But yet to touch them more neerely for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first receaued let euen their owne Baptisme and their faith and Religion that they after professe bee compared togither and the contrary will appeare For they being al baptized in the name onely of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost as it is well knowen they are thereby they are bounde onely to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity and Vnitie in Trinity and yet afterwardes all the sort of them notwithstanding the Apostles Creede and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same become plaine apostataes from this faith in beleeuing in a number both of persons and thinges that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father God the Sonne or God the holy Ghost Proofe and most palpable demonstration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits merits of others Popes pardons halowed water other halowed things their beliefe in and therefore praying vnto Saints Angels In the wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles this forme of baptisme these creeds were preserued continued amongst thē not only to make it euen thereby euident whatsoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer so oft that they are the men that daily depart both frō the faith of Christ first taught them their forefathers and after particulerly in their baptisme cōfirmed to euery one of them but also to make thē before both God man without all excuse of their so grosse apostacy from the same notwithstāding Wheras they know all the world els that knoweth vs know that we simply continue in this faith first deliuered vntd vs briefly by the holy catholique church in these creeds daily sealed vnto vs in our baptisme that euen for that it is that we are so hated and persecuted of
the bare and running with the hounde getteth a man frendes but he that will laye flattery aside tell the plaine truth shal get nothing but hatred Thus in these daies vice is extolled vertue contemned Ill rule is made â—f and good rule neglected O heart dissembled which vnder coulour to be iust true canst cloke vnto vs hipocrisie for deuotion ambition for gentlenesse couetousnes for â—oÌ„petencie cruelty for zeale bolde babling without learning for eloqueÌ„ce florishing Rhetoricke without fruit or reasoÌ„ folly for grauity wilines without wit and fleshly wanton libertie for liberty of the Gospell This is nothing els but the deuils drifte alway couering his poison vnder some taste of suger Fallit enim vitium specie virtutis vmbra g This inuectiue speech we may iustly vse of you and your side For the summe ende of all their false doctrine is nothing els but malice with murther to the ouerthrowe of Christes Religion and the true ministers thereof This is their sheepes clothing for an vnhappy reformation Nam impia sub dulci melle venena latent Vnder sweete honny is deadly venome hid O blinde ignorance and ignorant blindnes O cruell and damnable mischiefe comming from the bottomeles pit of hel O intollerable furiousnes and heresie more detestable then it mate any longer be suffered The greate dâ—spleasure the extreame vengaunce the cruell plagues of God hange ouer our heades if this horrible heresie be not shortly remoued froÌ„ mens mindes O h These wordes iustly we maie breake out into in respect of the infinite blasphemies and abominations held and maintained by your side in this point good god how long wilt thou suffer this intollerable abhomination It shameth me it abhorreth me to thinke that these shameles beastes are not ashamed to speake of the most blessed Sacramentes of Christes Church who is able to expresse either by tongue or penne their wicked abhomination whye haue we a pleasure to forsake the true vnderstanding of Gods most sacred worde and become followers and bondslaues of the deuils counterfaite and deceitfull expositions carnall reasons set out by his ministers who in Religion are i This obiection of the diuersitie of opinions see answered at large Cap. 4. so deuided that now they dreame one thing and now another this day they like tomorowe they mislike one is against another of them euen in the highest misterie of Christ his Religion And no meruaile for the deuill is their chiefe head whom they serue and he is full of lies variaunce diuision and discorde vnder him their Schoolemasters were Hus Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer Melancthon and the Archheretike Caluin k Therein there is no proofe that he helde any one heresy whose heresies are confuted in the Discourse hereafter ensuing l This is vntrue These with the rest of that rable did neuer agree one with another in their doings there is no vnity no certainty at all and therefore such masters such schollers come of them And this diuision this vnconstancie of doctrine was a manifest token that they were not the children of our true mother the Catholike Church nor ministers of Christ but the children of the deuill and ministers of Antichrist yea very Antichrists m Which that you papists be is most certain the contrariâ—ty of your doctrine with the auncient catholic e Church considered which I haue noted cap. 17. 29 of my answer For whosoeuer saieth S. Augustine is gone from the vnitie of the Catholicke Church hee is become an Antichrist These Antichrists haue borne a great stroke now too long time in our Realme of England in whom is no constancy no stedfastnesse of religion and doctrine These are they that haue damnably deceiued you and haue with their damnable preachings intised you from Church to Church from an heauenly Church to a malignant Church from a louing mother n This is false to a flattering harlot from the condition of grace to the state of perdition o These words remaining we iustly say to and of you from truth to falshoode from faithfull beleeuing to carnall reasoning from sauing Christ to deceauing Antichrist But good Reader beware be not deceaued be not ashamed to arise that hast so shamefully fallen be not ashamed to come home to your mother the Church sith shee is not ashamed to receiue you Let not folly lose the thing that grace hath so preciouslie offered and purchased Let not wilfulnesse and blindnesse put out so great light as is now shewed vnto thee but embrace most humblie the doctrine of our mother the catholicke church so shall you sit in the lappe of so tender a mother which will cherish you into life euerlasting Choose the best whiles choise lieth in lot What were you ashamed of your preface that you put not your name to it Indeede it is so fonde and friuolous that you might well enough be ashamed to father it An answere to the preface set before Iohn de Albines booke entituled A notable discourse against heretickes c. BEfore I take in hande to say any thing to Iohn de Albine or his booke I must craue of thee gentle reader whosoeuer thou art these two things that thou wouldest first giue me leaue to answere the long tedious and bragging preface prefixed before his booke by the publisher thereof and that then also thou thy selfe wouldest vouchsafe before thou goest any further either to the considering what Albine hath obiected or I answered to take the paines to reade ouer this my answere to the saide preface And though it seeme vnto thee of an extraordinary length so somewhat discourages thee yet the length of his considered likewise I pray thee beare with me and vouchsafe the reading of it thorow before thou proceedest any further His preface thou seest is long but indeede so vaine and friuolous it is that though it seemeth the authour thereof was some bolde and impudent Iesuite or fugitiue of our owne country yet such care he had of his credit that for feare of losse thereof he hath not thought good to put his name vnto it The vanity and weakenesse thereof may euen sufficiently appeare by those marginall notes that I haue affixed vnto it so that if I troubled thee with no further answere vnto it I hope it neither could nor should much moue thee or any other to thinke any thing the better of their Church and religion then thou didst before yet because neither he nor any of his faction for want of a further particular aunswere vnto it shall take occasion to persuade theÌ„selues or other that there is further weight and matter in it then indeede there is I will vouchsafe some more paines about it First therefore this I would haue thee Christian Reader for the coÌ„mendation of the authors great skill to obserue that almost al of it is spent in prouing those things which are needles because we teach graunt defende theÌ„ to
And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
is manifestly taught in others which is your fashion altogether and we alleadge them truely to confirme onely the trueth and therefore are very well contented that our interpretations should be tried by all soūd and good rules of interpreting Whereas you adde If we say they were heretiques and abused the scriptures c. the like report you say is of vs I say the more is their fault that so report of vs for they can neuer proue it Howbeit to make your report seeme the more probable you cōpare our dealings with theirs which by your saying are very like But the reader must be aduertised that you frame their speeches doings here without booke I meane without warrant of any good authour that reporteth these things of them euen of your owne head that so you may the better make their speeches and ours alike I praie you in what good authour did you euer reade and yet here you confidently aduoutch it that the Palagians Nouatians Nestorians c. who were long dead and buried before your Pope was hatched preached that the Pope was Antichrist It may be true that you write that some of them railed against the Roman Church that then was But alas what is this for your Romish Church now which is no more like that then then an apple is like an oister Indeede this is one of your trickes wherewith you coosen the poore simple people For it is the fashion of you all when you finde in any ancient father anie thing that soundeth to the credit of the Catholique church or to the commendation of the Roman Church in their daies to alleadge it as spoken in the commendation of your Romish church now a 1000. yeares after their death whereas there is more difference betwixt yours and that which they speake of in weighty materiall points of doctrine and discipline then in yeares If your Romish Church now would returne to the state of the ancient church of Rome and grow once like that you and we should soone agree For that is the thing that we will stand vpō with you that it is you in your railing vpon our churches that according to the fashion of these ancient heretiques raile vpon the church of Rome that then was rather then we For our churches are 1000. times more like it indeed thē yours as it is now Nether are you able to produce your authours to proue that these heretiques did at euery word alleadge scripture or appeal onely thereunto For the contrary is euident both in Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus August and others that wrote against them For they testifie that many of them shunned the triall of the Scriptures onely and fled euen as you doe to traditions succession of fathers visions other such like motiues as councels fathers antiquity consent c. as I haue shewed cap. 3. as appeareth euidently in diuers of these fathers writings as in Tertul in praescrip contra haeret Epiphanius in many places de haeresibus Chrysost in Math 4. Irenaeus libro 3. cap. 2. August Contra Maxim lib. 1. de Baptismo contra Donatist lib. 3. cap. 2. in Ioan Tract 13. de vnitate Ecclesiae cap. 15. Epist 165. ad Generosum Who but one of your Religion would euer thus grossely abuse his simple poore Reader You yet as a man that had saied all this while nothing but that you might truely say proceede on with your comparison tell vs that they were condēned by generall Councels so are we they were found cogging knaues and so shall we Whereunto I answere that those which you call generall Councels were but late Conuenticles of your owne since the apostasie of your Church from the ancient Roman Church wherein there was indeede no freedome of a lawfull Councell enioyed and therefore whose condemnation we neede care no more for then Christ and his Apostles needed to care for the sentence of condemnation that in their times the high Priestes Scribes and Pharisees gaue of them and their doings in their councels And as for your vnmanerly prophecie we neede not esteeme it For neither is your mouth any slander nor yet doe we take you to be a true Prophet But seeing say you they and you be thus like why should they be condemned for heretiques you absolued receiued I answere the likelihood is denied and the reason I haue giuen you alreadie As for Augustines probleme you talke of it is impertinent and toucheth vs not For we doe not with the Donatists shut vp Christs inheritance within the compasse of any place as they did in Africke neither say we that Christ at any time hath lost his in heritance but we say that Christ hath had alwaies and hath still his Church without restraint of place wheresoeuer it pleaseth him neither doeth it remaine now onely with a fewe rude Switzers and in two or three corners besides as it pleaseth you to speake For it is well seene that diuerse whole kingdomes as England Scotland and Denmarke haue receiued our Religion and that indeede it groweth so mightily in most places that it maketh the stoutest of you greatly feare that ere it be lōg your kingdome of the Pope will be greater in the west Indies then in these parts Hauing done with vrging this probleme which indeede fitteth you Papists better then vs in that you tie Christes inheritance to your Popes girdle you tell your Reader but you meane to proue it at leasure that these heretiques that you haue talked on all this while haue fortified their campe with as manie moe places as wee alleadge and therefore once againe you would haue a reason why that notwithstanding they should bee counted heretiques and not we You make vs answere because they did interpret them contrarie to the Churches doctrine which you suppose is the onely answere we can giue But I haue tolde you that because when there is questiō of truth there is cōmonly also questiō of the church our answere is that their alleadging of them was hereticall ours true and right as may be proued by the scriptures themselues and by the right rules of interpreting of them But be it that we answere as you imagine what haue we lost or you gained thereby This say you that you haue no more right then they to be counted Catholiques because you alleadge them also contrarie to the Churches doctrine Here againe you deceiue both your selfe and your Reader with the ambiguity of the word Church For if wee answere that we reiect their allegations for that they alleadged them contrarie to the Churches doctrine that then was we by the Church vnderstand a sound and sincere church of Christ in possession of sound Religion and not whatsoeuer Synagogue will entitle it selfe with the name of the Church and so vnder the name of the Church warre against the true church In which sence onely your Church against whose doctrine wee alleadge them hath the name of a church And yet you as though it
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
to offer him againe to his father If by penance he vnderstand repentance we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof For we most earnestly call for both but if by penance be vnderstood either voluntary or enioyned penance as they commonly take it ioyned with an opinion thereby either to satisfie for sinnes past or to merit at Gods hand because we know that such penance and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God because thereby Christ is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect sauiour in by himselfe alone that is due vnto him then we graunt as we haue iust cause we preach against it Otherwise fasting straightnes of life watching and lawfull vowes to make vs more ready feruent in holy prayer we commend and vrge Indeed praying to Saints because we haue neither example coÌ„mandement nor promise in Gods book to encourage vs thereunto but all to the contrary we condemne as grosse idolatry and likewise prayer for soules departed as they vse it to relieue foules in purgatory for the same reasons and sundry other we preach against But what we teach of these two points and what not and what reasons we haue for our so doing and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answere to Albine where I haue at large shewed these things And thus much therfore for this 3 signe The next is to bring a schisme into the Church coÌ„trary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor 1. and that such a schisme as wherby not onely one member shall be seperated from an other but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ Iesus which we to haue done in seperating our selues from their Church not they hee assumeth and so concludeth when the learned protestant can shew the coÌ„trary that he wil recant and not before Still thus thou maiest see good reader that this man is no changling For vnles that be graÌ„ted him which is the maine point betwixt vs that their Church is the true Church of Christ their doctrine the sound catholicke faith and religion he hath no ground or foundation for any thing he saieth For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine that euery one straight is authour of such a schisme as he here speaketh of that by doctrine draweth others from euery society or company inuesting themselues with the name of the Church and bragging that they haue the trueth For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer coÌ„mâ—â—tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes that then I am sure bragged as confidently of both these as this man and his fellowes doe now Or what would he say to those ancieÌ„t catholicks after Liberius time that when Arrianisme had in great part ouer run the world and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged theÌ„selues to be the onely 〈◊〉 catholicks disgracing theÌ„ that were so indeed with the name of Omousians that yet though they had got both bishops and emperours so many and so fast of their opinion that they had in ten seuerall councels goe sentence of their side ceased not labouring and traueling vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them and to ioine with the poore persecuted contempt the number that then yet persecuted in the trueth I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this count either Christ and his Apostles or these ancient catholicks antichristian heretickes or schismatiques And our drawing of meÌ„ by our doctrine now in these later daies from them is nothing else in trueth but an imitating as nigh as we can these renoumed and vndoubted good presidents examples that so the kingdome of Antichrist according to Saint Pauls prophesie might fal into consumption 2. Thessalonians 2 and that great Babylon might yet at leÌ„gth as it was reuealed vnto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14. fall and come downe For not onely we saw that the Church of Rome had made a schisme but such an apostasie euen in the fundamentall points of Christian religion from Christ and his Church that there was no remedy but that we must breake of from her as we did or else we could neuer haue communioÌ„ indeed in Christ with his true Church Though therefore we know and at the first knew that peace vnity and concord were pretious things and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for yet knowing withall as we doe did that it is vnity in verity and not in errour impiety with Christ not with Antichrist that is so much to be set by blame vs not for chusing rather according to these good exaÌ„ples to haue war with men then with God discord with Antichrist and al hes bread then with Christ and his members We grauÌ„t them therfore that to bring into the Church such a schisme as shal make diuision not onely amoÌ„gst Christs meÌ„bers but also of the body from the head is indeed an vndoubted signe of antichristian heretickes but wheras he taketh this for grauÌ„ted that this we haue done in departing froÌ„ theÌ„ as we haue that we deny For we teach men to hold hold our selues that faith religion as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament that alwaies the true Church of Christ hath held and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongst themselues is vnity and also knitteth theÌ„ and their head Christ so fast together as that no popish or antichristian tiranny shall euer be able to seuer them And howesoeuer this proude challengeâ— thought wtâ—â— impossible thing for the learned protestant to proue that they haue brought into the Church such a schisme as hee speaketh of I the vnlearnedst often thousande doubt not that I am very well able to doe it For this is most certaine and cleare Iesus Christ the Sauiour of the worlde indeede is at this point beeing euery waie so able and willing as he did in his owne person and by himselfe alone to go through with the office of a most perfect Sauiour of mankinde that either so hee must bee beleeued in and trusted vnto for that matter or else hee taketh himselfe antichristianlie robbed of that 〈◊〉 and glory that is due vnto him and therefore wil be no part of a sauiour at all to such That this is most true appeareth because it is writed that God is so iealouse of his owne honour and glory that hee wil not abide that any should therein bee pertaker with him or rob him of any ioâ—t therof Esay 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared Matthew the twenty two that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation Actes 4. that hee is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reu. 1. that he is the authour finisher of our faith Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for
is such a thing for the vvhich in all the scripture they can finde neyther precept promisse nor example to leade them to vse it but to teach them to abhor it there they shall or at least may learne that inuocation is a speciall diuine poynt of seruice of such spirituall and high nature as that God challengeth it onely to himselfe that therefore neuer any holy man mentioned in the scriptures durst euer vse it to any other Indeede a man shall easily finde that ere Epiphanius time Sathan had taught the heretiques called Caians to worship Angels with inuocation of them and that likewise ere his time in Africke there were that offred to Mary the virgin and that in inuocating her and other saints were verie busy pretended great piety deuotion but withal he shal finde that he bitterly condemnes al that did so for heretiques vnder the name either of Caians Antidicomarianites o◠Collyridians Heres 38 78. c. that in as bitter manner as may be vsing the same speeches reasons against them that we doe now vsually in these daies against these Now where they would shift of the absurdity blasphemy of robbing God his sonne Christ of their due honour herein in saying first that their praying to the souls of Saints departed may aswel stād with their honour as the requiring of our brethren aliue to pray for vs then in affirming that they begge nothing at their hands but stil they conclude their praiers vnto them with this clause by the merites of our Lord Iesus Christ they cannot so escape or excuse themselues For neither doe they only desire the Saints departed to pray to God for them as we doe our brethren here whiles they liue neither do they alwaies remember so to conclude their praiers vnto them For in their office which they call the seruice of the blessed Marie there bee three prayers made vnto her wherein no lesse then eternall life is begged directly at her hands yet there this clause is quite forgottē The like may be obserued in many other praiers of theirs to them as for example in their praier to S. Osmund confessor in one to S. Anne and in an other to S. Katherin And if it were so that they so shut vp al their praiers vnto them what were that else then to make Christ mediator betwixt vs them For can we in any words more plainly acknowledge Christs effectual mediation betwixt vs and his father then by requiring all things that wee begge of his father per dominnm nostrum Iesum Christum by our Lorde Iesus Christ Then what is this else but for their pleasures to put him from his old office of being mediator betwixt God and man to make him nowe mediatour betwixt men and wemen aliue and the souls of other men wemen dead They say in their maner of praying they neuer cause the Saints any more to incroch of his office of mediation then wee doe when wee desire one another being aliue to pray to god for vs what say they then to that prayer of theirs in the name of Thomas Becket Tu per Thomae sanguinē quē pro te effudit fac nos Christe scandere quò Thomas ascendit That is O thou Christ by the bloode of Thomas which for thee hee shed make vs ascend thither whither Thomas is gone They knowe this is or was in their portuisse But if this be not plaine inough both to make it appeare that they pray otherwise to the Saints departed then we doe to thē aliue that in their praying to thē most blasphemously contrary to all holy ancient fathers iudgement consent of al Christian nations prescriptiō of al ages and the holy scriptures themselues marke Christian Reader these further presidents In the masse of the annuntiation they sing thus to Mary Salue virgo virginum mediatrix hominum all haile virgin of virgins the mediatrix of men and in the masse of the conception thus Tu spes certamiserorum verè mater orphanorum tu lenamen oppressorum medicamen infirmorum omnibus es omnia That is speaking to the same Mary Thou art the certaine hope of the miserable truely the mother of orphans the helpe of the oppressed the medicine for the sicke to all thou art all things Infinite such examples there be whereby it is most cleare that nothing can bee begged of God himselfe which they beg not of the saints that no title cā be giuē to god but they haue giuē it to one Saint or other Besids al this we must cōsider that the children of God being aliue are commanded to pray one for another that by speech letter or messenger they know how to acquaint one another with their minde whereas in praying to their soules after their death we haue neither commādemēt so to doe neither can we indeede persuade our selues that whatsoeuer we say vnto thē they heare and see our minds vnles we thinke now after once they be in heauen they are inuested in the very nature of God himselfe so are become aswell as he searchers scers of the harts raines which once to imagine because it is extreame blasphemy therefore their is infinite difference euen for these reasons betwixt desiring a Christian brother aliue to pray for vs the desiring of his soule departed but once to doe so much for vs. Againe if that were but all they doe in praying to the Saints departed then howsoeuer because of our frailty that sticketh by vs whiles we liue it were necessary one of vs to require that at the hands of another that so the better vve may performe the duety one to another yet their is not the like reason why we should so cal vpon them that are departed though they could heare vs for they being where they haue laide aside all frailty and forgetfulnesse of their dueties it being supposed to be their dueties to pray for their brethren sisters in Christ aliue we may be sure they will do it without our remēbring of them thus But now no more of these two points here for ca. thirty seuen I haue spokē againe somewhat largely thereof where I haue shewed both when and how these corruptions came in and who resisted them also Wherefore to goe on with cōfutation of the obiectiō which I haue vndertaken to answere concerning that point when and by vvhom the Romish religion came in and vvho spyed it and confuted it besides the pointes already touched amongst many other wherein we differ from them these are three principall for the which I account both them their religion Antichristian their doctrine of trāsubstantiation of images and vowed single life and yet in these they bragge of fathers consent of Christian regions and prescription of time as in the former To aunswere therefore both that demaunde concerning these pointes also and to strip them withall of that visard of antiquity and vniuersallity that herein along time
least after this that Priests had wiues begat childrē as other men And none of any learning are ignorant that al these sturs about this matter notwitstanding Christiā Bishops ministers in al other quarters of the world vnder the other Patriarches frō the beginning vnto this day haue bene are maried beget childrē also after they are entred into the ministry This also is as wel knowen of the learned that not onely particular learned men holy fathers as I noted before others but also sūdry coūcels where multitudes of such fathers haue met haue writen decreed to withstād contrary the going forward of this Antichristiā ordināce Yea they thēselues are not ignorāt hereof as it appears by sundry things set downe both in their text and glosse dist 81.84 elswhere in their Canon law For in the 28. distinctiō is noted a decree of the councell of Gangra which was about 300. yeares after Christ whereby he is by the authority of that councell anathematized that shall for his mariage put difference betwixt a maried ministers ministry and another and therefore abstaine from communicating with him and there also is cited a canon fathered of the Apostles whereby he is accursed that puts away his wife for Religion sake And in the sixth generall councell held at Constantinople these thinges are remembred with other and therefore there it was decreed Tom. Conc. 2. cap. 13. that he shall be deposed that after that should go about to debar Priests or deacons either of mariage or of the vse of their wiues yea after ordination and there also further it was enacted that if they themselues being ordred should vnder pretence of piety put away their wiues that they shall therefore be excommunicate and yet this was 680. yeares after Christ Moreouer Hierom speaking of his time saith that then plurum sacerdotes habebant matrimonia that is most Priestes were maried aduersus Iouinianum libro 1. Tertullian himselfe was a maried man as it appeareth by his writing to his wife To holde that ministers may not mary Ignatius ad Philadelphenses saith comes of the deuill And Dionysius Corinthiacus writing to the Gnosians persuades their Bishop Pinitus not to impose an vnnecessary too heauy a burden of single life or chastity vpon the brethren as we reade in Euseb lib. 4. cap. 22. Lastly S. Bernard though he liued about the yeare 1120. which was a very corrupt time for this matter yet euen he in his sixty sixth sermon vppon the Canticles thus far concerning this point hath plainely written Take from the church honourable matrimonie the bed vndefiled saith he and thou fillest it with concubine keepers with incestuous persons with such as haue vncleane issues of seede flowing from them with wantons with Sodomites and all kind of vncleane persons But when the bright euidence of these allegations seeme to make them somewhat to bold downe their heads yet I know they haue this shift for their last refuge that they deny not but that such as haue been maried or at that presēt haue wiues may enter into the ministry but thē they must be such as voluntary will vow and performe a single life and so thence forth abstaine insomuch that they are so in loue with this shift that they say write as is to be seen in the Rhemish notes vpō the new testamēt that Pauls canons touching the being of such the husbāds of one wife are so to be vnderstood not so as that thē or after once he is minister he may continue the office of a husband towardes his wife and confidently they dare and doe brag that we neuer read of any other that maried or got children after they entred once into holy orders Wherin first the practise of the Greeke Church all other Churches but these in these parts of the world directly crosses them Againe let Pauls words in deliuering of his canons cōcerning the qualities that ministers ought to haue bee well considered and any man shall see that it is absurd so to vnderstād him that he requires that they should be so qualified only de praeterito for the time past not rather especially for the time present and to come Seeing they are so cōfident in this that none maried euer or begot children after they were ministers let them tell mee of whom Peter had his daughter Petronella of whō their owne Croniclcs speake so much had he her not of a lawful wife And if it be true that we read that in the persecutiō vnder Domitian she was of such florishing yeares that then Flaccus a noble Roman county would haue had her to wife the time betwixt that and Peters entring vpon his Apostleship being at the least fifty fiue yeares after Christ by all likelihoode shee was got after hee was an Apostle And well might it bee for it being euident that Christ had taught them that vnlesse it were for fornication no man should forsake his wife Math. 19. and therefore that Paul hath noted that the brethren of the Lord and Cephas did cary vp and downe in the execution of their Apostleshippes their wiues being also conuerted aswell as themselues and therefore sisters 1. Cor. 7. taking maintenance for themselues then as they went that sometime in that perigrinatiō of theirs in the discharge of their office this Petronella was borne For it being euidēt by the Gospell of Math. 8. that Peter had a wife and by their owne stories that shee was a liue a little before his death at Rome with him that he counted not his Apostleship fornicatiō that neither he would leaue his wiues cōpany take other women with him nor that she came to Rome rather in the cōpany of other men thē of him her owne husband too too grosse and absurd is it with them to thinke that he the rest of the Apostles that had wiues forsooke their wiues quite and went vp and downe rather after the popish maner accompanied with other women Their translating and peruerting the order of Paules words a woman a sister will not defend their interpretation for he placeth his wordes thus a sister a wife where in the later place it is absurd the Greek word being that which sometime standeth generally for a woman sometime for such a woman as is also a wife to take it in the former sence for then therein there were a needlesse tautology for there is no sister but shee is a woman also But to leaue Peter with his wife and daughter what can they say to Socrates who in his fift booke and twentieth one Chapter of his story writeth that omnes praesbyteri illustres that is all renouned ministers in the East and Bishops also if they will no law compelling them may obstaine from their wiues for not a fewe of them whiles they are Bishops beget childrē of their lawfull wiues Historiae tripartitae lib. 9. ca. 38. Againe the 10. canon of the Ancyran
what they list Their doctrine also of satisfaction for sinne in that they allow sprinkling of holy water going on pilgrimage doing of this outwarde trifling thing or that which easily may be done of any carnal man to be good satisfactory meane◠to answere God withal for their sinnes how can it be otherwise but the people measuring and iudging of sinne according therevnto must needs thinke sinne that can be satisfied for so easily and lightly to be but a sleight matter Their doctrine also of eare shrist is likewise a meanes to acquaint their single priestes with all the lewd huswiues in their parishees and so an acquainting of them with the trickes waies how and the parties with whom they may commit filthinesse Yea their forced single life as experience notoriously hath taught hath infected earth and aire with monstrous vncleannesse of the flesh both inward and outward naturall vnnaturall with infinite murders of poore infantes the better still to hide their iniquity And while they teach that simple fornication is not so ill in their clergy as to vse a lawfull wife that the first inwarde motions to sinne or concupiscence not consented vnto be no sinnes that manie sinnes euen for their owne littlenes are veniall not worthy of damnation they make men secure for these and so the fitter bolder to go on in the rest Their doctrine and practise of dispēsations and pardons for money for clergy and people almost for any thing is and must needs be the roote and fountaine of wonderful many abhominations Their doctrine of sanctuaries priuiledges exemptiōs and immunities of their clergy others are very great occasions of sinne and impiety Lastly the ambition pride tyranny pompe gluttony wantonnes and insatiable couetousnes of their Popes Cardinals and Prelats makes al whom they bewich with their religion to thinke that they are not to be blamed if in these things they imitate then their holy fathers marueilously are they incouraged to continue and spend their daies in these in al other sinnes when as by their doctrine they are put in hope if they die beleeuing blindly as the church beleeues providing of their goods which they must needs leaue behind them somwhat liberally that masses dirges trentals may be saied and song for them and that such other things done as thē their ghostly father shal appoint them that in the end they shall doe well enough how loosely and lewdly soeuer otherwise they liued before The second point also is many waies cleare and apparent For first by their doctrine of their Popes supremacy where it is in the full force Emperours Kings Queenes are thereby made and marde at their pleasure they must not thinke scorne of most base seruice and subiection to them their subiectes shall be bound to pay them tribute no longer or to yeelde them any maner of other duety further then they list yea it shall be lawfull for them to conspire against their naturall Princes by any meanes they can to deuise to depriue thē both of their liues and kingdome if so the Pope cōmaund them Nay not onely vpon the Popes cōmandement and pardon shall this of them bee counted lawfull and meritorious but if any of his ovvne motion vndertake such a thing of a deuout minde to his holmes and religion the incouragement and absolution of euery Masse-priest shall be sufficient to iustifie the action and to cause the party that hath done it to be canonized a Saint for his labour Further for the establishing of this archpiller of popery their Popes supremacy Princes are depriued of the election of their Prelates and they are by oath so obliged to the Pope and so freed from the iurisdiction of their lawfull Prince that they may and dare beard their Princes and howsoeuer they wil take liberty to enioy great promotions vnder them yet in effect they are no subiectes vnto them but rather altogither stand at the deuotion of this forraine Potentate Secondly by the pretended right of this their supremacy for the better maintenaunce of the swelling pompe thereof to the great weakning of Christian states they haue taken vpon thē and yet doe when they may be suffred by their annates Peeter-pence Paul-fees first-fruits tenths lones oppressions taxations impositions and infinite such other deuises sauoring of nothing else but of insatiable couetousnes to cōuey away the treasure riches and wealth of euery cuntrey from out of it to Rome And by this their supremacy they haue first weakned after rent in two lastly brought in effect to nothing the glorious Roman Empire that so the better they might haue roome to grow vp in and that for their sins in the iustice of God Christendome might the more easily become a pray to the Turke Thirdly by the deuise of their Auricular Cōfession they haue and may haue most perfect intelligence of the secretes of all states where they haue to doe then which can any thing in these outward things bee more dangerous to the safe and good estate of Princes Fourthly by the force of single life they haue caused priuies and ponds such other by corners to swallowe vp and destroy in euery Christian kingdome where they ruled as many infants as might being growen to be men haue beene able in the fielde to defend there Prince and cuntrey against all the enemies thereof vvhich vvhat a vveakning to Christian Princes and their kingdomes it hath beene vvho seeth not These thinges therefore considered it is to bee marueiled that any Christian state can or will tolerate either them or their religion in it And as for the last point that so their religion might fit the title appointed it by the Spirit of God that is that indeede it might proue it selfe to be 2. Thess 2. a very mistery of iniquity euen throughout vnder the shevv of holinesse and deuotion they alvvaies haue hid nourished and maintained grosse iniquity and haue aymed at nothing more then at their owne pompe and aduantage For their doctrines of free-vvill of mans ablenesse to keepe and ouer keepe the law of God of merits satisfaction for our selues or others aliue or dead of the mediation of Saints or Angels and their doctrines that the Pope cannot erre that he hath such supremacy as they giue him and that the scriptures haue their sence and authority from his allowance thereof howsoeuer they paint these things with the goodly shewes of care to prouoke and incourage men to good works and with deuotion to Saint Peter the mother church yet who is so simple or weake sighted but that through these colours hee may and doth discerne God his sonne Christ blasphemously robbed of that which is their right man to be occasioned to swell with a conceyt of his owne ability and that the final marke that all this tēds vnto is by the selling of other folkes ouerplus merits and satisfactions vnder and in the names of pardons to enrich the Pope
alwaies demonstrable succession of such â—â—â—â—sters in the Church without interruption as these metaphorâ—â—â—â—scribe And yet I deny not but that alwaies in one place or ot◠〈◊〉 the Church hath had from the beginning thereof and shall haue 〈◊〉 the ende of the world such and so many ministers whereby the L◠〈◊〉 hath alwaies and will continue the life thereof but that this plâ—â—â— of Matthew proueth so much which is yet far lesse then you 〈◊〉 enforce vpon it I deny Notwithstanding I graunt that all 〈◊〉 faithfull pastours and teachers according to the nature of their â—â—ling and measure of their gifts so far forth as they therein haue â—â—â—thing common with the Apostles and are found like vnto theÌ„ 〈◊〉 also in some sort haue these things applied vnto them vnderstâ—â—â— of them but then withall it must be noted and alwaies remembrâ—â— that as there was and is diuersity of gifts and offices in sundry â—â—spects betwixt the Apostles and common pastours and teachers 〈◊〉 it must follow that there is proportionable difference betwixt the apparent light and visiblenes of the one and the other The Apostles were by their office appointed to preach to all nations Math. 28. 〈◊〉 therefore worthely called in that respect the light of the world and by their extraordinary giftes they were set vp as burning lampes and mighty cities to be seene discerned a farre off whereas Bishops Pastours Doctours haue charges limited vnto them but of final compasse and giftes but such as if they giue true light and be seene of those that be about them and neare vnto them it is well Howsoeuer certaine it is as I saied before that Christ doeth not there prophecy or foreshew how visible lightsome his Pastours teachers should be from time to time to the worlds end but he teacheth his Disciples and Apostles what by his grace they should be and so others succeeding them in the office of teaching what they ought according to their place to striue to bee And I would haue this marked also that euen they to whom Christ spake properly were but tolde that there light should lighten those of the house and that a citty built on a hill though it be not hid to those that are â—eare vnto it yet to those that dwell in another cuntrey farre of it may bee hid and that therefore though this place were as properly to be vnderstood of al true Pastors as of the Apostles that yet â—t inferreth not that their persons and light should bee seene and â—iscerned but of them that be nigh them or ioined with them in the â—ame house or communion of religion And as for that in the 4 to the Eph. though it proue that there shall be teachers in the Church to gather togither the Saintes and to edifie the body of Christ vntill it be brought to perfection yet it proueth not therefore your visibility of them neither doeth that in the 62 of Esay For it onely sheweth that God would blesse his Church with watchfull and discreet pastours which accordingly after he performed But there is nothing saied to proue that they and their succession in the truth should be so visible apparent as you dreame of But to awake you out of this dreame you must heare and vnderstand that though it be as certaine that neither the trueth nor teachers thereof hath at any time or shal hereafter vtterly faile or cease to be in the Church as it is that the Church if selfe coÌ„tinueth euer neuer quite ceaseth yet thereupon it followeth not that therefore both the trueth and teachers thereof haue so continued a personall succession one vnto another or one immediatly after another and are withal so visible and apparent that their names and places may straight not onely then but alwaies after of euery one as you vpon these places would infer be pointed and painted out And for the confirmation proofe hereof let vs briefely take a view of the state of the Church froÌ„ time to time as it is set downe vnto vs in the holy Scriptures And in this point let vs beginne with the Church when in respect of all the former times it was best setled began to haue the most visible apparence namely when vnder the conduict by the seruice of Iosua God had placed it in Canaan After this though God therein had established a Priesthood tied it Leuit. 10. by his ordinaÌ„ce promise to the tribe of Leui though the Church theÌ„ had most notable promises of Gods presence fauour towards it Psal 68.2 Chro. 33.2 Chr. 7. Esa 60.62.63 yet for al this for the sinnes iniquities of the people it was driueÌ„ ofteÌ„ into those streights that successioÌ„ of priests pastors was interrupted of the teachers of the professors of the trueth there could hardly be made demoÌ„stration For in the time of the iudges that followed Iosua as it appeareth in the booke of theÌ„ Cap. 10.13 c. it had many such ecclipses that we read ther of their general Idolatry other sinnes therefore of their slauery vnder heatheÌ„ princes in Gods iustice laied vpoÌ„ theÌ„ diuers times for many yeares togither in the meane time we finde little mention either of priest or people that feared God aright And in Elies time 1. Sa. 2. the priesthood al grew so corrupt that therefore by Samuel Elie is threatned that the priesthood notwithstanding Gods promise Leu. 10. should be traÌ„slated froÌ„ his house after we read Cap. 4. that the very Arke of God was lost takeÌ„ of the Philistines And it canot be denied but the God had his church in Israel in king Achabs time For Obadiah had theÌ„ hid 100 prophets in two caues 1. King 18. God himselfe told Eliah that he had 7000 there that had not bowed their knees vnto Baal Cap. 19. yet Eliah though there theÌ„ a prophet was so far froÌ„ being able to name theÌ„ to point out who they were what they were the he thought himselfe in that kingdome to be left alone And in the kingdome of Iudah where in coÌ„parison of the kingdome of the ten tribes the Church vsually had a more visible estate yet in the latter end of Salomons raigne RehobohaÌ„s Ahiiahs the estate thereof was so growen out of order that the prophet Azariah saied vnto king Asa their next successour there hauing relatioÌ„ to the state of the Church in the kingdoÌ„ as suÌ„dry good interpreters take his words now for a long seasoÌ„ Israel hath bene without the true God without priest to teach without law 2. Chr. 15. Be like then their successioÌ„ their naÌ„es were not so visible as you seeme to imagin alwaies they must be in the Church And though by Asa his son Iehosaphat the church was wel reformed again yet in king Ahaz time as appeareth 2. Chr. 28.2 King 16. grosse Idolatry ouerspred the kingdoÌ„e so that the teÌ„ple was
polluted prophaned Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar in coÌ„mitting abhominatioÌ„ before the Lord though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests froÌ„ AaroÌ„ Againe though Ezechiah succeeding Ahaz for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominatioÌ„s wherw t his father had defiled it yet wheÌ„ he was dead his son Manasses his son Amon brought it to as il an estate as euer it was in so much that froÌ„ the beginning of Manasses raign vnto the 18 of Iosiahs the booke of the law of the Lord was lost which was wel nigh 80 years for theÌ„ it is noted that Hilkiâ—h the priest found it 2. King 22. In Manasses his time it is euideÌ„t Idolatry opeÌ„ly preuailed the whole Synagogue saue a few prophets their folowers erred If we proceed during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon what visible appareÌ„t shew of any successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors caÌ„ we finde the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religioÌ„ Was not their teÌ„ple then destroied consequently did not the publick exercise of their religioÌ„ which for the most part was tied theruÌ„to cease as it was prophesied by Hosea Ca. 3. therfore lameÌ„ted by Ieremy Ca. 3. LaÌ„ WheÌ„ Christ our sauiour caÌ„e into the world surely then God had his Church For it is a most certaine article of our faith that since it begaÌ„ it hath neuer ceased nor neuer shal yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there theÌ„ in possession of souÌ„o religioÌ„ Had not they as euideÌ„tly appeareth by the stories writeÌ„ by the EuaÌ„gelists that were in the visible personal succession corrupted the doctrine of the Messias both concerning his person and office so that they were the deadliest enemies that he had But you wil say perhaps that though these thinges were thus in the Church in the time of the olde Testament yet it may not be so in the Church now in the time of the new And why so Howsoeuer otherwise there be some differeÌ„ce betwixt the Church then and now in respect of the more cleare reuelation now then then of the doctrine of the Messias whereof that Heb. 8.6 is by soÌ„e vnderstood yet in this respect you shal neuer be able by the word writeÌ„ or any true story to proue any necessary difference vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people his seruice in great part to their temple and that he had ordained amoÌ„gst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so that the Church theÌ„ had more right to plead visible succession then now In the meane time thus much is gained by these stories of the Church in the time of the olde testament that this outward clearenes visible succession you talke of is not an inseparable note of the true Church for therby we haue seene it seperated ofteÌ„times from it And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experieÌ„ce you would see grauÌ„t that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist and that very great and effectual And least you should babishly foolishly as many of you doe vnderstand this of an Antichrist that towards the end of the world should come and raigne seduce men 3 yeares an halfe marke that here Paul telleth vs in his time that this mistery of iniquity did already worke which it did in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith partly by the workes of the law as it appeareth by the Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things as could not be brought to passe in that space lastly consider that he teacheth that though he should be detected and fal into a consuÌ„ptioÌ„ by the Spirit of Gods mouth yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming All which make it most euident that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity which should trouble the Church theÌ„ yours of 3 years an halfe continuaÌ„ce But least yet this notwitstaÌ„ding you should imagine that the fulfilling of this prophecy your faÌ„sie of perpetual clearnes vniuersality of the church may staÌ„d alwaies togither S. Iohn in his ReuelatioÌ„ describing as you al must coÌ„fesse the state of the Church seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed DragoÌ„ driuen into the wildernes and there glad to be fed for a season Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot the true patterne of your Romish prelacy by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist his kingdome committing fornication not with a fewe but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth not ruling or sitting ouer a few but as the Angel there expoundeth the waters whereon she was seene to sit people multitudes natioÌ„s toÌ„gues Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew that after Christ there should grow such a defection froÌ„ the fayth in the world by the means of Antichrist that during the florishing of his kingdome the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers small visibility and shew in the eies of the world Which we say and constantly are able to defend hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats Besides view the stories of the church the Cronicles of times and you shal be driuen to confesse that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses Re. 11 to testifie to the trueth that they neuer could be extinguished quite by TyraÌ„ts yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew doe witnes that Diocletian Iouius and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined when they caused them to bee erected that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions that they thereupon caused to bee engraued they set theÌ„ vp euen of purpose to brag that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished as they terme it the superstitioÌ„ of Christ Which they would neuer haue done if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them and had knowen their names and where to haue found them If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished wee shall read that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato meaning Athanasius Ecclesiast Hist Theodoreti lib. 2. cap 16. whereby it appeareth that then the
where I rest O most beautifull amongst all women follow thou the path that thy flocke hath made before thee setting thy tabernacle or thy lodge hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepheards If wee well note and vnderstand this answere it will learne vs that that shall suffice to keepe vs from running euer astray The sense is this O thou Christian which art troubled in thy conscience not knowing because of so many heresies which way thou shalt go or how thou shalt discerne the true religion from other false doctrine take my counsaile the which is to follow step by step the flocke that went before thee If that a thousand or two thousaÌ„d sheep run ouer a plaine those that come afterward doe not they knowe wel the path that is made before them Doe not they discerne the way that the first went Yes surely although there be no Shepheard to guide them And if thou doest answere that this doeth not suffice for I doe see diuerse pathes I see the path of the Caluinistes Cant. 1. the path of the Lutherans and the path of those of the Roman Church but yet doe not I knowe which flocke I should choose To this I answere thus set thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the shepheardes and of thy Pastours I meane that a Then we may not leane to yours for this can it neuer doe I would haue thee to leane to that flocke that can leade thee from age to age and from yeare to yeare vnto the crosse of Iesus Christ on the which hee was nailed at noone daies and there it is where thou oughtest to quiet thy selfe and thy conscience Then to beginne If thou doest aske the Caluinistes Where is the true faith the which as they saie doeth consist in the true preaching of the worde of the Lorde and in the administration of the Sacramentes according to the institution of Iesus Christ they will answere It is at Geneua the Lutherans will answere at Wittemberge and the Anabaptistes will answere at MonasteriuÌ„ the Vbiquitaries they wil answer at â—ubing and the Trinitaries at Petricone and so consequentlie of the rest And then pursue and aske further where it was twentie yeares agone They will saie in the saied cities but if thou come to demaund of them where it was an hundred or two hundred yeares agone if they are ashamed anie thing at all to lye they wil not answere at all for there is none of them that can denie but that Luther who began to preach his new Gospell the yeare b This is a monstrous and impudent vntruth for constantly and generally wee say and proue by the Scripture that our religioÌ„ hath plentifull warrant both in the olde newe Testament 1517 was the first beginner of all these troubles the father of al those that teach this reformed Religion Then is it farre from that place where thy frend was nailed at middaie or where hee was crucified aboue 1500. yeares agone before the newe Church was dreampt of And therefore thou maiest easilie perceaue that this flocke cannot leade thee to the place that thou doest desire and consequentlie that is not the flock that wee should followe Then let vs come vnto the Roman Church and demaund where was this flocke an hundred yeares agone They will answere thee in France Spaine England Germanie and so ouer all Christendome And of thou aske where it was 500. yeares agone c They wil say so therefore it was so they will saie In the saied places And a thousand yeares agone likewise and likewise a thousand and fiue hundred yeares agone This flocke then will not leaue thee by the waie as the others doe but it will leade thee vnto the verie time of the death and passion of d This is also most vntrue for the popish doctrine from point to point wee are able to shew when it began and how it hath growen by degrees to that which it is not in a thousand years after Christ Christ by continuance of oâ—â— doctrine and by succession of pastours which Salomon doeth call the Tabernacle of the sheepe heardes And therefore this is the place where thou must seeke thy Tabernacle and quiet thy conscience to the ende that thou bee not a lost sheepe and that thou bee not readie to turne at euerie blast of new doctrine e None such coggers as Papistes in giuing the sence of the Scriptures who make not them the rule of their practise but their practise how mutable so euer the rule to giue the sence thereof by that our new coggers of the Scriptures doe set forth to deceaue the simple sheepe The IIII. Chapter TO this fourth chapter I answere that with Salomon to finde out the true Church of God wee as well as you exhorte Christes sheepe to followe the tracte of the flocke of Christ and to feede by the tentes or Tabernacles of his sheepheardes that so they maie bee ledde on and vp to Christ himselfe But then forasmuch as wee haue learned before by that which hath beene noted in the former Chapter concerning the fashion of heretiques especiallie seeing the same confirmed in you and other heretiques and apostataes in these our daies that euerie flocke is not Christes flocke that will pretende so to bee nor they alwaies his true sheepeheardes that are so accounted wee wish euerie one that wilfullie is not disposed to suffer himselfe to bee seduced by those that falsely thus pretende to learne to bee able as Saint Iohn hath taught all true Christians in the first Epistle and fourth verse to trie the spirites whether they be of God or no which they shall and may doe in trying both the flockes and their sheepheardes by the infallible worde of Christ contained in the Canonicall Scriptures For Christes sheepe will heare and obey his voice Ioh. 10. which vndoubtedlie and sufficiently is sounded in the written worde For the Scriptures are able to make a man wise vnto saluation through the faith which is in Christ Iesus For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God and is profitable to teach to improue to correct and to instruct in righteousnesse that the man of God may be absolute being made perfit vnto all good workes 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true sheepeheardes will feede his sheepe with the sincere milke of this worde because that is it which they must desire as new borne babes doe milke that they may growe vp thereby if so be they haue tasted how bountifull the Lord is 1. Pet. 2. And because that is it according whereunto he that speaketh must speake because it is writen if any maÌ„ speake let him talke as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule if the flockes and sheepeheardes whom wee followe bee tryed they shal bee founde the sheepe whose tracte is to bee followed and the sheepeheardes by whose tentes is safe feeding And contrarilie by this rule your flockes and sheepeheardes come to the tryall of it when you
of mans merites and praying to Saints c. And Franciscus Petrarcha florishing about that time in his ninteenth twentieth Epistle calleth the seate of the papacy the whoar of Babylon the temple of heresie and treachery and in such sort describeth it both at Rome and at Avinion where then the Pope sate that he as it ther seemeth coūted it the greatest euil that can befall a man to be made pope Iohannes de rupe scissâ about 10. yeares after in the yeare 1340 was so sore a rebuker of the abhominations of the cleargy that he was therefore imprisoned he also compared the pope to a bird richly clad with other birdes feathers yet so as that for the pride of that birde he prophecieth that the time would come when the other birdes would call for their feathers againe and so make him know himselfe Cōradus Hagar one of the city Herbipolis about this time preached 24 yeares as it appeareth in the Recordes of Otho bishop of that City that the masse was no propitiatory sacrifice either for the quicke or the dead And within three yeares after the booke called Paenitentiarius Asini was writen wherein the Pope is resembled to the Woulfe the Cleargy to the Foxe and the Laitie to the poore Asse In the yeare one thousand three hundred and fifty Gerrhardus Ridder wrote a book called Lachrima Ecclesiae wherein he vehemētly inueigheth against begging Friers Michael Chesenas before mentioned amongst other things preached that the pope was Antichrist and Rome Babylon Hee had many followers whereof I read some were burned as Iohannes de Castilone Franciscus de Arcatarâ and he himselfe beeing Prouincial of the Grey Friers was depriued and condemned in the yeare one thousād three hūdred twenty two or there abouts And in the time of Innocent the 6. 1353 I read that two Frāciscane Friers were burnt at Auinion whereof the one was one Iohn de Rochetalayda otherwise called Hayabolus witnes Premonstrat and Henry Herford Who as Henry of Herford writeth preached in the time of Pope Clement the 6 in the yeare 1345 that he was commanded by God to preach that Rome was Babylon and that the pope and his Cardinals were very Antichrist and beeing brought before the pope for it to his face he boldly did aduouch the same Brigit whom you your selues haue made a Saint about the yeare 1370 in her booke of Reuelations was a most bitter rebuker of the pope and his cleargy and so likewise was Katherina Senensis 2 yeares after as Antonine writeth in his 3 part of his story terming the pope a murderer of soules a spiller piller of the flocke of Christ saying that they were more abhominable thē Iewes more cruel thē Iudas more vniust thē Pilate worse then Lucifer himselfe And the former of thē plainly prophesied that their kingdō should be thrown downe as a milstōe into the deepe that the clergy had turned al Gods cōmandemēts into these two words Da pecuniā giue money Mathias Parisiēsis a Bohemiā about the year 1370 wrot a large book of Antichrist prouing him to be come that the pope was he the Locusts in the Apocalyps he saith are his hypocritical clergy About this very time Greg. the 11 sent a bul to the Arch-Bishop of Prage stirring him vp thereby to persecute one Melitzius and his followers who is charged in that bull to haue preached that the Pope was Antichrist and to haue had congregations following him As Brushius writeth in the yeare 1390. there were burned at Bringa 36. citizens of Moguntia for the doctrine of the Waldēses holding also that the Pope was Antichrists and Massens recordeth that there were burnt about the same time 140. for the same cause in the prouince of Narbon and the same authour testifieth that in the yeare 1210. 24 suffered at Paris and that the next yeare there were 400. burned for the like cause 80. beheaded Prince Armericus hanged and the Lady of the castle stoned to death Houeden also noteth that about these times there were great numbers put to death in France for this cause of Religion Trithemius writeth that Ecchardus a dominicke Frier was put to death at Hiddelberge in the yeare 1330 for withstanding the Popish doctrine There is an olde monument of processe against 44◠persons for the same cause in Pomerania Marchia and places there about in the yeare 1391. And certaine it is that if the recordes and statutes of all countries in these westerne partes should bee searched euen thereby would it appeare that the number of those that haue gainesaied the Pope his proceedings in the time of his greatest florishing and cruelty ' haue beene from time to time infinite how much greater then is it likely was the number of them that informer times when hee was not growen to that power to vexe the seruants of god as he hath beene for these last 300. or 400. yeares haue professed the trueth boldely against him Thus are we come to Iohn Wicklifes time who florished here in England about the yeare of the Lord 1372 and yet I haue for the auoiding of too too much tediousnes omitted the names of a number of famous men that haue also withstoode poperie and ioyned with vs in sundrypointes against them in those times that I haue run thorow as namely Alcuinus Archbishop of Canterburie directly with vs against them in the matter of reall presence Aelfricus Ioachim Abbot of Calabria Arnoldus Brixianus Almericus a learned Bishop in Innocents time the third iudged a◠heretique for teaching as we doe against images Beringaiius Reymundus Earle of Tolossa Lord Peter de Cogneriis Eudo Duke of Burgandie the Archbishop of Armah and infinite others I might also here againe haue remembred that with H. Mutius writeth of an 100 burnt in one day in Alsatia vnder Innocent the 3 in the yeare 1215 when Antichrist in the Lateran councell bringing in the new and monstrous article of Transubstantiation shewed himselfe to be euen growen to his highest degree of iniquity But to let these passe and to proceede Iohn Wicklife as it is famously knowen was with vs against you in the most and weightiest things betwixt you and vs in controuersie and therefore in your councell of Constance you condemned him and caused his dry and rotten bones to be taken vp againe and burned Whiles he liued he had many great learned men here in England that ioyned with him as namely Nicholas Herford Philip Repington Iohn Ashton and Laurence Redeman and so many followers had he and they and hee had such fauour and protection especially of the Duke of Lancaster that then was that though your prelates here in England vexed and molested them what they could yet they and their fauourers in short tyme grew to that strength and multitude that by the yeare 1422 Henry Chicheley then Archbishop of Canterbury certified the pope that they all could not be suppressed they were so many but by force of warre
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
the vaine successioÌ„ of persons wherw t you decked yourselues they haue added the successioÌ„ of true doctrine with you had corrupted So that what good soeuer was in your vocatioÌ„ ours had it also besides since they haue had confirmatioÌ„ of their ministry amongst theÌ„selues and by the consent approbation of the people amongst whoÌ„ they haue ministred The XIII Chapter IF that the good doctor * Cip. 1. epist c. 6. S. Cyprian had beene in these our daies might he not well haue saied against your schollers that which he did write against a CipriaÌ„ cals him that he speakes against Nouatianus who was a Roman and the disciple of Nouatus of Africke That Nouatus Nouatianus were two seuerall persons it appeares in Ciprian lib. 2. ep st 8. 9. Nouatus there needed no other but insteede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius nomine mutato de vobis fabula narrabitur Seeing that the saied S. Ciprian doeth hold affirme that Nouatus ought to be accounted as no Bishop because he succeeded no body but rather that he did make himselfe a Bishop b These words you adde for they are not in Ciprian without any imposition of haÌ„ds Then to what purpose I praie you are ye of the opinion that c This is but your slader saying for both these were and so are wee able to proue that they had sufficient warrant for their calling Caluin Zuinglius are such faithfull ministers considering that they are as farre from prouing the confirmation of their ministrie as euer was Nouatus You will answere mee that you haue no neede of the imposition of hands of the Papists superstitious Idolaters infidels But this maketh your cause neuer the better for if you are so scrupulous by nature that it goeth against your consciences to come to kneele to our Bishops you should I say in tunes past haue required your ancient ministers to haue giuen you a warrant for the confirmation of your estate when one doeth demande of you since when your Religion began you are not content to claime the beginning froÌ„ the Apostles but rather stepping hardlie forwarde ye are not content to staie at Dauid or Abraham but you must needes fetch it from Abel d Yea euen from that doctrine that God taught Adam and Eue in Paradise though it grieue you yea from Adam And if one should spurre you forward you would go I knowe not whether Then seeing that your church is so ancient and that it hath indured till our daies if we will beleeue you it is not like to be true that it hath beene destitute altogether of ministers for although it be so that God did greatlie afflict the Israelites with the captiuitie of Babylon yet did he neuer leaue them without comfort of good doctours such as Daniel Ezechias e Whence proue you that they had there a proâ—â—er then named Abdias Or that there was then any Prop â—â—named Ezâ—chias but it may be you would haue saied Ezechiel Abdias and manie others Euen so you that thinke in your owne heades to bee the people of God I cannot thinke if it bee so hee would so haue giuen you ouer as to want ministers to comfort you in your afflictions and to ordeine your ministerie by the in position of handes f These 2. whiles they were yours and so others as Luther Lucer Capito Carolstadius OecolaÌ„padius and the rest had calling either to be priests or to be ordred by your owne Bishops or at least to be doctors of Diuinity by the vniuersitie wherein they were brought vp And after these two were ours the one had an ordinary calling by the presbytery magistrate and people of Geneuae the other of Zurich and so had the rest in the places where they taught What staies you that you doe not go to them seing that you haue nothing to doe with ours And if you say that you haue done so doe vs so much pleasure as to let vs heare their naÌ„es in what time they did florish or otherwise you maie pardon vs if wee giue no credit to your fained imaginations The XIII Chapter YOU boldly adde vnto Cyprians wordes these words without any impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds for neither where the other words of his with you recite are nor yet any where in that epistle doeth he once mention the ceremony of imposition of haÌ„ds Neither can Cyprians saying against Nouatianus whom you cal wrongfully and ignorantly Nouatus truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius seing they had as I haue read the ordinary calling vocation of the times wherin they liued euen from your selues For as for Caluin his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedrall church and a curateship in a towne hard by of a Bishop of yours where he was borne which would not haue beene giuen him vnles he had beene within orders I think And Zwinglius it is wel knoweÌ„ was a CanoÌ„ in the cathedral church of Zurich 2. or 3. years there liuing preaching before he was ours And so I read the other preached also in his cure before he was ours whereby it should seeme that the one had imposition of hands to holy orders as you terme them of some Bishop of France and the other of some Bishop likewise of Germany Now after when as by force of the trueth they grew to be of our Religion so came out of Babylon to vs they both were according to the order of those churches where they serued called orderly to the ministry of the Gospell where also they both succeeded others that went before them Neither of which could Nouatianus truely alleadge for himselfe and therefore Ciprian saith that he was neither in the church nor Bishop But seeing we account our church so ancient as that when we are asked when our Religion began we will say it hath beene euen from AdaÌ„ also that euer since it hath endured and continued you say it is not likely that it hath at any time beene altogether destitute of ministers For though God did afflict the Israelites for their sinnes with the captiuity of Babylon yet he did neuer leaue them without coÌ„fort of good doctours as Daniel Ezechiel Abdias and others therefore seing we haue nothing to do with yours we either haue or should haue sought them out haue taken imposition of hands of them which if we haue done you wish vs to tell you their names when and where they florished To answer you indeede for the substance of our Religion we say it is the same with God himselfe first taught AdaÌ„ in paradise For first he was taught to serue God not according to his owne will but according to the law that God gaue him Secondly he being found a traÌ„sgressour of that holy will of God after he was brought to see his sin the danger thereof he is sent for recouery by Gods promise only to the promised
to be thrust out as you haue beene to get possession of his own from another man yea although the other had no right to it he should not onelie lose the possession but likewise the propertie but if it were found that he that did enter by force had no right to the Mannor hee should not only be depriued of it but moreouer he shoulde be condemned to giue as much more of his own vnto him against whom he had vsed the force as the thing was valued at that he sought to vsurpe If one should cal you my masters the new reformed Gospellers to such a reckoning ye might wel packe vp your pipes and transport your fidelie into another countreie for you should haue no other remedie but to runne awaie with the goods and preach pouertie The XV. Chapter WHat argument you speake of it is hard to tell seeing as yet for any thing that I cā perceiue you vttered nothing since you entered into this matter to call vs to an account of our vocation worthie the name of an argument Indeed that which losely you haue vttered here and there against it of the necessity of succession of persons and of imposition of handes as you imagine we must say indeede take place in an ordinary calling and not alwaies in an extraordinary But by your speach it should seeme you had relation to some thing which you took to be an argument set downe in the last Chapter before this where in effect you haue saied nothing but onely in your scoffing maner found fault with vs because in setting downe the ill liues of your prelates on the one side of the leafe we set not downe on the other side the good liues thē of our own which how it should seeme to containe an argument either against ordinary or extraordinary vocation I see not For neither they that are called the one way or the other are alwaies bound to obserue that order But to let your pitiful logicke go and to passe ouer your scoffing in calling vs Gods Commissaries not worthy an answere let vs see if you haue hit of any better argument here to proue our ministers not to haue beene extraordinarily by God stirred vp to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the papistes Idolaters as you saie we tearme thē then as yet you haue brought to disproue their ordinary calling If we would come to plead this matter with you you say you would aide your selues herein against vs with a Syllogisme of Christ Iohn 8. which is this Hee that is of God doeth obey the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore ye are not of God You suppose that we will denie your minor and therefore in that God commaundeth Matthew 22. to giue vnto Cesar that which is Cesars and vnto God that which is Gods and our ministers doe neither of these but the contrary in deteyning Geneua from the Duke of Sauoy and in being the causes of the stirres in France and spoiling your bishops and Priests of their liuings you thinke that proueth so against them that the conclusion must needs follow Doe you thinke in earnest that whosoeuer can be proued in anie one thing to disobey God streight thereupon it followeth that his commission or calling is not of God What man euer was there either ordinarilie or extraordinarilie called to anie office except the man Christ Iesus but in some one thing or other at one time or other one waie or other hee did not obey God Seeing that all men are sinners and there is not one that can truely say his heart and handes haue alwaies beene free from sinne and transgression of the law of God Take Christes words in this sence and so none no not hee amongst you that is fullest of his workes of Supererogation shall euer escape this conclusion If you had viewed the text you should haue perceiued that Christ vseth that speach against the Scribes and Pharises who blasphemed the doctrine of the Messias and would abide neither to heare nor to obey it and not generallie against all that in anie thing are found at anie time disobedient to God of ignorance or infirmitie And yet though he had ment so and it were graunted that euery man in that hee offendeth or sinneth is not therein of God yet thereupon it followeth not that the same man therefore cannot be a man that hath his cōmission or calling of God Dauid was not of God in that he committed adultery with Bershebah and murdered Vrias yet euen then hee had a commission of God and a calling to bee King ouer his people And therefore though you could proue these thinges to be true that you charge our ministers withal and though also it were graunted that therein they haue done ill yet thereupon necessarily it doeth not follow that therefore they were not extraordinarily stirred vp by God to correct your sins and abhominations For Iehu whom God vndoubtedly stirred vp to chastise the house of Ahab and to correct the Idolatrous priestes of Baal euen with an extraordinarie zeale 2. King 9. 10. yet he departed not from the sins of Ieroboam the son of Nebat which made Israell to sinne as there it appeareth Againe it is strange that you should lay these as faults yea as such faults to our ministers charge as that therefore they cannot be sent of God when as not onely it is a receiued taught printed doctrine amongst you in the 5. Chapter of D. Allines defence of catholiques but also such as hath from time to time beene and yet is most monstrously practised euen amongst your Popes which pretend to haue the best highest and largest commission from God of all other ministers not onely that they may deteine dukedomes from the right owners but also depose Princes and Emperours translate their kingdomes and crownes to whom they please and make warre against them both by forreiners and their owne subiects for the aduancement of their religion when and how it pleaseth them For this your doctrine and practise considered if your argument for the causes by you alleadged supposing that they were true haue any force against our ministers it hath ten times asmuch force against yours whose chiefest meane of late to establish and continue your kingdome hath beene as the stories of all countries for this 600. or 700. yeares at the least doe make it most manifest by force and subtlety to bend and frame Kings and their kingdomes either to be at your deuotion or els to make a spoile of them and their kingdomes for your selues and your frends If therefore there had beene either shame or common discretion in you you would neuer haue vsed this argument against vs which maketh more strongly against your selues But in deed and trueth the things that you ground your argument vpō against vs are partly vntrue and partly maliciously wrested onely against our ministers For neuer shall any of you be able to proue that our
with great approbation by men of your side to bring the poore Indians by force in subiection vnto you And what extreame force and crueltie hath beene vsed of late yeares to subdue the poore Christians of Cabriers Merindoll and other places thereabout and to roote out the professours of the Gospell and their fauourers in France I am perswaded that the Turks neuer vsed more faithles tyrannical and monstrous dealings then the stories and the euidence of the thing declares you haue vsed against these And therefore it being so vsuall a thing with you as it is to promote your Religion by force of all men you are the vnfittest to charge others with that as with a fault which you account so laudable in your selues And yet as though you had saied so much against vs for this as that thereupon it must needs appeare to euery man that we haue neither reason of our saying or doing you further charge vs that herein in seeking namely the reformation of your Church we haue taken vpon vs cōtrary to all laws both diuine and humane being also a party to be our owne iudge wherein you say vntruely of vs for we alwaies haue beene contented to submit both our sayings and doings to the iudgement of the Lord himselfe speaking vnto vs in the writen word and by the same we haue had our sayings and doings often examined and tried to be sound and lawfull in nationall and prouinciall Synodes before we haue attempted the reformation you speake of And secondly herein you charge vs as you did before with that which you your selues are openly guilty of For though your Pope be the speciall party accused by vs yet in all matters in question betwixt you and vs you wil haue him to be the supreme iudge and so the questiō being betwixt you vs whither you be the church or we and whither you hold the trueth or we no other triall will you admit but that we must be iudged by him whither it be so or no. Wherein you deale as if the felon at the bar should refuse all other triall but to be tried by the principall in that felony whither he be guilty or no. Now wheras yet in this our dealing you would resemble vs to him that gaue Christ a blow c. Your errour is manifold therein it seemeth either your negligence was much or that your wits were benūmed For where the story you allude vnto is Ioh. 18. it is quoted in your booke Iohn 15. neither doe you hit of Christs words in rehearsing the answere to him that smote him nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appeare betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church that fellow Christs answer was this if I haue euill spoken beare witnesse if the euill but if I haue well spoken why smitest thou me And you set downe his answere thus if we haue done il proue it before the iudge seeing that you are our accusers as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and vs you shew not wherein it is neither can I gesse wherein you ment it But indeed your dealing with vs considered he carieth a liuely resemblance of a number of you whose property it is to bring vs for our holy profession before your high priest and his chaplaines and then if we chance to answere boldly for our own defence as Christ did though neuer so directly to the purpose to checke vs and strike vs as he did our sauiour for your great prelates may not so be answered But perhaps you wil say that the words that you set downe containe your answere to vs when we checke you for your doings why then set you them downe as the answere made by Christ to him that smote him And if the words be taken as your answere to vs meaning therein such a iudge as either the Pope or one of his sworne men that we should be drawen before such iudges by your owne law here alleaged is against reason for they can be no competent iudges because they themselues are principall parties Our accusation of you we are alwaies ready to proue before the Lord of heauen and earth and before any other indifferent iudges by such deponents and witnesses as will not bee corrupted either by you or vs namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality in the Canonical scriptures Exemption from this iudgement we neuer sought nor will and if your religion flye this kinde of triall and iudgement God hath giuen vs power euen thereby to iudge that you are such as ought to be driuen from possession of such a corrupt religion that dare not shew the face in this court of iudgment because then it knoweth it should bee foyled But yet to holde your Clyents in some lyking of your religion you once againe confidently bragge that it is of one thousand fiue hundred yeares continuance and vpwards and therefore you require vs that would disswade you therefrom to shew our commission sealed and confirmed as so great a matter doeth require and as Moses his was by miracles which in this case to be as necessary for vs as it was for him you striue to proue in the rest of this Chapter and that otherwise you are not to beleeue vs. Wherefore because all this you require at our handes and thinke you may doe it stil only vpon this supposition that your religion is thus ancient as you bragge First let vs consider of that point and then proceede to the rest which you infer thereupon Herein that which I haue writen already both in the later ende of the preface and in my answere to your 4 Chapter doeth sufficiētly discouer the shameles follie and vanity of this your brag howbeit because I perceiue what you lacke in trueth in this matter your purpose is to make vp with the setting a stout countenance vpon it once againe I will take the paines to strip your Church and religiō of this visard of antiquity which done for al your lewd brags I doubt not but that both the one and the other shal be found a yoūgling a new vpstart in comparison of that which you pretend First therfore to begin withal in that the greeke Churches which quite brake of communion with you in the time of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 which is now not aboue 360. yeares ago haue not yet allowed the masse to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and dead do minister no priuate masses either in the Church or else where reserue not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof nor deny the ministring thereof vnder both kindes to any communicant in that also they neuer yet coulde be brought to allow of the supremacy of your Pope nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation extreame vnction purgatory of forbidding their ministers the vse of lawful mariage in which points now a great part of your religion consists euen thereby it may
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
is no reason in the world why you should count from that yeare for neither Daniels words will beare it neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christs death for that was about the yeare of the world 3354 and he suffâ—ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth Neither is there any mention in Dan of 72. weekes but of 70 of numbers whereinto he deuideth that Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetique or wits were very sleÌ„der to reckon 72. weekeâ— that is so maâ—y times 7. years to be iust fiue hundred when as if you account againe you shall finde that your number is not so iust by 4. as you would seene for 72. times 7. makes 504. A shaâ—efull learned man sure you haue shewed your selfe here but he did assigne the very time that is to say by the seuenty two weekes counting from the fourth yeare of the raigne of Zedechias vntil the time that our Sauiour was naâ—â—ed vpon the Crosse the which time was iust 5. huÌ„dred years TheÌ„ seeing that Christ came at the verie prescribed time he might well haue saied vnto the Iewes that the Scriptures did beare witnes of him But yet to say the trueth if he had done no other but this he had not fully approued his vocation to condemne their incredulity For they might haue saied vnto him we know wel that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob about this time forasmuch as the scepter of this kingdome is taken froÌ„ the line of Iuda to be deliuered vnto Herod But what though is this a good consequence a But now that tâ—is point is sufficiently confirmed already so also al the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles therefore now to refuse to beleeue the ordinarie ministers of the Church vnles they proue the same againe by miracles which is your deaâ—ing with vs is an euident signe of vnbeliefe the Messiaâ— ought to coÌ„e about this time therefore it is I No no shew vs your coÌ„mission let vs see some signes how we shal know it for if we should receiue you as our king it may be that some other would come and craue the like saying that we were abused Our Sauiour Christ sore fearing this obiection toâ—ke another witnes with him besides the scripture I meane his miracles The workes that I doe saieth * John 5. Christ in the name of my father beare witnesse of me The like proofe is made wheÌ„ S. Ioh. * Mat. 11. Baptist sent his disciples to our Sauiour to haue him teach the true beliefe that they should haue in him this question was put to him art thou he that should come or ought we to attend for some other Go your waies saied Christ and tel Iohn what yee haue heard and seene The blinde receiue their sight the lame doe walke vpright the dumbe speake the deafe heare the lepers are cured the dead are raised againe and the poore are preached vnto the which is as much to say as tel Iohn that I am the true Messias that he ought to attend â—â— other I doe verifie my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles For first Esay doeth write that when the Messias should come he should doe the Miracles aboue mentioned Then seeing that I haue done theÌ„ in your presence it foloweth that I am he that should come Thus you see Sirs that both the b And by the same scriptures and by the same Miracles we iustifie our vocatioÌ„ and religion what wil you haue more Scripture and Miracles were necessarie for the confirmation of the comming of Christ among the Iewes who were neuer harder of beleife then we are according to your opinion and therefore blame vs not if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures c But they doe 2. Thess 2. Apoc 14. vers 8.6 and 7. the which doe neither beare witnes of your comming nor yet doe any miracles the which two thinges and more are necessary to make vs beleeue your reformed Gospell The XXX Chapter THe drift of this Chapter is to proue that Christ did not onely warraÌ„t his vocatioÌ„ doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures but also by miracles which I grant you proue sufficiently Wherupon you would coÌ„clude that we accouÌ„ting you as hard of beleife as euer were the Iewes therefore we should proue our calling and religion vnto you by both whereas if it be true that you say we can doe neither and so are to bee sent packing like coggers onely of the Scriptures Whither the Scriptures giue testimony vnto our religion or no. I referre to the reader to iudge by that which I haue writen already by that we haue writen from time to time in our bookes made in the defence of our religion And concerning our vocation and calling I trust I haue sufficiently confirmed that by theÌ„ also in that I haue shewed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time But if further you require a more speciall testimony from thence of our comming by our calling I sende you now to 2. Thess 2.8 and Reuel 14.6 c. where it is prophecied that God would towards the later end send his messeÌ„gers againe to consume Antichrist and by preaching the euerlasting Gospel to ouerthrow Babylon And as touching miracles you haue bene answered sufficiently already but that you complaine not that we refuse to answere you as long as you can obiect any thing to this now alleadged I say that you must vnderstand that it was necessary for Christ to confirme his calling by miracles because it is true as you alleage out of Esay that it was prophecied that the Messias should worke miracles when he came so also it was necessary once to establish and confirme the particular doctrine of his person the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law and other such new strange things as the comming of the Messias brought with it both to Iew and Gentile which reasons you cannot shew why we should work miracles now to confirme our vocation or religion by to you For neither was it prophecied that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption or the whore of Babylon to her fall by working of miracles but as you haue heard by the spirit of Gods mouth breathing in his euerlasting gospell the force whereof in our ministry you perceiue daily to be such that it is eueÌ„ a miracle and wonder vnto you to see in how short time it hath preuailed and preuaileth still against your kingdome doe you what you can to let it neither neede those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles which are the onely things that wee teach to be for your sakes confirmed againe though you be neuer so harde hearted The word writeÌ„ and the miracles therin recorded already must serue the turne to conuert you to our religion therein taught and
thereby sufficiently ratified or else gibe at it howsoeuer here you shall one day to your smart I feare find your selues to be without all excuse One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter which is this that alleadging this saying of Christ Search the Scriptures for they are they that testifie of mee you note that he saied not they are iudges but they bearewitnes of me which you tell vs are two different things This was by the way to giue vs a blow that would haue no other Iudge but the word of God And to what end would you haue the Scriptures but to staÌ„d at the barre as witnesses Truely that your Pope and your Church might sit on the bench as iudges to giue seÌ„tence as it pleased them whatsoeuer the witnesses depose But what little reason there is therein nay what blasphemy that sauoureth of you euery maÌ„ may learne by the certaine infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one of the manifold errors iudged and practised by the other It is worthy the marking to see how still it grieueth you that the Scriptures or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes you to check controle your doings and how faine you would bring them vnder to bee iudged ouerruled by you But to answere this your obiectioÌ„ you must be put in remembrance that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge and a witnes but one selfesame man may be both a witnes a iudge that if there be such a force in this word witnes here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses there is as great force in the word Iudge in another place to bring them to the beÌ„ch againe to sit as iudge Remember your selfe therfore that the same Christ that saied here that the Scripture beare witnes of him sayed Ioh. 12.48 to such as you are He that refuseth me receiueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day And neuer disdaine you that the scriptures that bare witnes to Christ sit as iudges ouer you and your doings if you doe the wil not serue your turne For Christ hath tolde you what you shal trust to if you wil not stand to their iudgement here you shall one day wil you nil you be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you couÌ„t him a foole to be reiected that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith confirmed by the ancient Doctors general councels if he bring scripture indeed on his side you wil proue most foole if you beleeue him not This your Gerson saw therfore he hath writen that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing theÌ„of his side then either to the Popes senteÌ„ce or to the decrees of a general councel And your Abbot PanormitaÌ„ ad CanoneÌ„ Titulo de Electionibus hath the like saying But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors to ioine with vs in our religion we doe not perswade you from that but to that indeed which our ancestors whom we may safely follow the Patriarches Prophets Christ his Apostles hath taught vs and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors lawful Synods and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs. This wee are sure is true For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures the sound monuments of antiquity the Cronicles of al times ages to proue and iustifie it to be so against al gaine-sayers And therfore I would wish you for fear of the senteÌ„ce of this Iudge the scriptures though you labour neuer so much to bereaue theÌ„ of that office of a Iudge amongst you that neither lacke of miracles working by vs nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith Catholique Church ancient fathers and councels c. hold you any longer froÌ„ ioining hands with vs. For to pretend all these neuer so much wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge then the like did your predecessors the hie priests Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments kept theÌ„selues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles to their vtter destruction The Lord of his infinite mercies open your eies in time and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word and to leaue deceiuing of your selues others with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen Your childish and grosse ouersight ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull For whereas he speakes but of 70 you say he did speake of 72 those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe and contrary to al trueth of story the expresse wordes of the Angel Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity wheras they must of necessitie beginne after The XXXI Chapter YOu a But not alone foâ— especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past for at this present if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is You glorie in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say that the paine doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues murderers might claime the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the martyrs saieth he not for the tormeÌ„ts that they doe suffer but for that it is for Christ that they suffer for Iustice b There is no such thing there turn the place who list yet I deâ—â— not but in some other place he may write so but no wher against such as we but rather against such as coÌ„moâ—ly your fellowes be here in England who dying for t eâ—sâ—n yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeniâ—ni Cap. septimo writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doeth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of Religion otherwise saieth he the Deuils might attribute vnto theÌ„selues the glorie of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands when throughout the worlde their Idoles were
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
bouÌ„ds of the Romish Church vniuersal but eueÌ„ as the Donatists shut vp the Church in Africk so do the Romanists within the coÌ„passe of a corner of the world in coÌ„parison of al the rest which they cut of from the coÌ„munion of the Church And yet there is nothing more vsual with Master Ioh. de Albine in this his book theÌ„ to labour to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce the Romish Synagogue with these two things antiquity vniuersality But as for vniuersality it may appeare by that which I haue saied by that which euery one may easily coÌ„ceiue if he coÌ„pare theÌ„ the professe Christ whoÌ„ they reiect as heretickes schismaticks with theÌ„ that receiue honour the popish religion that it is now and hath beene a long time rather with theÌ„ whoÌ„ they thus coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ with theÌ„selues And as for antiquity most certaine it is that the Turks the Nestorians the CircuÌ„cisers may a great deale more iustly brag therof theÌ„ they For the Turkes haue beene in possession of their full Mahometisme these 900 years the heresie of the NestoriaÌ„s hath continued these 1200 years amongst the Georgians And the heresie of them that ioine circuÌ„cision with baptisme continueth yet in Africa in AEthiopia vnder Presbyter Iohn hath these 1500 years whereas popery is not so old as the youÌ„gest of these in that almost al the points therof wherfore it is so called haue beene deuised and brought in since the youngest of these began But put the case that popish religion were ancient indeede and had the greatest part of the world to follow it must it needs therfore follow that it were the trueth the best way No indeed For who can deny that Gentilism or Paganish idolatry wheÌ„ the Apostles were sent first to preach the gospel to the GeÌ„tiles was very ancient For it had welnigh continued then from Noahs fâ—ould vntill that time And neuer was popery of so manie nations so vniuersally receiued as that was And yet who is so simple but he knoweth now for all this that that was a way that led to destruction And if the mystery of iniquity beganne to worke in the Apostle Paules time and yet Antichrist the father thereof was not quite to be abolished before the brightnes of Christs second comming as he plainely teacheth 2. Thess 2. it being withall prophesied that the whore of Babylon Antichrists right patterne should sit vpon many waters that is rule ouer many people and cause the kings and nations of the earth to be drunk with the wine of her fornication as it is Reuelat. 17. who seeth not that euen Antichristianity may be countenanced with great shew both of antiquity vniuersality as certaine and good tokens as the Romanists count these two of the true Church of Christ Which things considered howsoeuer it pleaseth Master Ioh. de Albine here to iest at vs as men like to the children of God in nothing but in this folly that contrary to the fashion of the wise children of the world we chuse rather to trust a few then many we are contented therein to be like them stil and so rather to chuse to enter into the Arke with 8. persons Ge. 7. so to be saued then to refuse so to doe with all the world besides so to be drowned And I would aduise him for al his wisedome to be such a foole as rather with two or three to flie out of Sodom with Lot Gen. 19 then with all the rest to tarry behinde and to be destroied with fire and brimstone For howsoeuer he count this folly Christ who is wisedome it selfe hath charged his to striue to enter in at the straight gate though few go the way many the other broad way For that is the way that wil lead vnto saluation whereas the other leadeth to destruction Luke 13. But the men whom he nameth Luther Zuinglius and Oecolampadius though they be men whom we thinke wel of and whose memories shal be famous in Gods Church for al his blinde prophecie to the contrary when the names of a thousand such as himselfe is shal bee either buried in obliuion or infamous for their resisting of Gods trueth are not the men vpon whom wee build our religion These we account such as in these later daies God vsed to very good purpose to reuiue further to publish and make knowen the doctrine of trueth then it was when they beganne first But the men that we trust and leane vnto in this case are those holy men of God and such like as Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Pet. 1 which spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost so haue left the will of God for our full direction vnto vs in the holy Scripture And these the ancient Christians and Doctours for six hundred yeares after Christ and infinite numbers since euen downe vnto the times of these whom he here nameth as I haue shewed in the fourth Chapter of this booke and else where togither with vs haue followed And further then these writers of the canonical scriptures haue led any of these we doe not nor meane not to follow theÌ„ You shew therefore Master Albine but the nature of your Romish spirit in your confident aduouching without all proofe that these men you name gained soules to the Deuill and that they haue so fold their honesty credit that few now know that euer they liued in the worlde For besides your rash and vncharitable iudging of theÌ„ you speake that which your owne heart tolde you was a lie For you could not bee ignorant but that these mens names are knowen to thousands that neuer read their stories But you say that you agree with vs in not trusting of men but in trusting to the very word writeÌ„ but you and we vary about the interpretation for we interpret it after one sort and you after another we after a new sort and the Catholicke Church whereby wrongfully stil you meane your owne doeth follow the olde exposition of the ancient doctours and traditions with we haue forsaken Herein you say more then either you or any of your fellowes wil stand to For when it commeth to the point the greatest champions of you confesse that a number of the things that are in controuersie betwixt you and vs are without the coÌ„passe of the scripture and therfore least they should be quite reiected they vnder prop them with the rotten prop which yet they labour to make to carry some shew of strength of traditions or of the word vnwriten And in the other point concerning interpretation that therein we vary it is true but that the variety is as you say it is false For we neuer refused the exposition of the Catholicke Church nor to vse the helpe of her sound and Catholicke Doctours or traditions agreing with the word writeÌ„ as helpeth the better to attaine to the right sence therof by Indeed the interpretation of your new Apostata Church of Rome her false doctours and
and by Iohn Reuel 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon shew onely that the Lorde would doe it by the spirit of his mouth in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell That therefore is it onely that we are to approue our selues by to be the men that the Lorde will vse to that purpose And yet herein we take not vpon vs greater priuiledge then Christ For we accoūt that an especiall priuiledge of his that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles as that after the confirmation of it so by him his Apostles and the recording of it in the new Testament as it is it should thenceforth stand so firme that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity amongst them especially that pretend they reuerence and receaue the scriptures as you would seeme to doe euer to require miracles more to confirme the same doctrine by You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise yet you shal be at the least without blame for your not receiuing of ours because we work no miracles Deceiue not your selues It is not with you now in respect of vs and our doctrine as it was then with the Iewes in respect of him and his Then that he was the particuler person of the Messias that therefore he being come the ceremonies of Moses law should cease and giue place to his sacraments c was a thing to be proued that by miracles because it was before prophecied whereas now those things long ago haue beene sufficiently confirmed and therefore we preaching vnto you no other doctrine but that so already confirmed and requiring no further to be credited then we can so proue our doctrine especially seeing the prophecies cōcerning these later daies shew rather y◠Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come and seeke to preuaile by miracles then the Lords faithful pastours you haue no such reason as they had nor indeed any at all to require miracles at our hands But you say vnto vs as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees contra epist Fundam cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio with you there is no other sound but promise that you haue the truth Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow and you are answered For he addeth which yet if you can make appeare is so cleare of your side that it may not be doubted of is to be preferred before all those things that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church Be you of this minde once with Augustine and then learne this one other lesson of him do vnitate ecclesiae contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari I will not haue demonstration made of the church by humane documents but by the diuine oracles And so say vnto vs as he saied there vnto Petilian let vs seeke the Church and so discusse our cause by the scriptures beholde they are common vnto vs both beholde there we haue knowen Christ beholde there we haue knowen the church c. Take this course once with vs and I doubt not whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary but we shall thereby be able to iustifie both our vocation and Religion and to make it appeare that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth with you and the Manichees but the very trueth it selfe And this being proued thē you must yeelde with Augustine that it is to be preferred before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer that haue kept you hitherto in an other Religion and church yea then you must confesse notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs of nouelty paucity iars in opinion and whatsoeuer else yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs in receauing of this trueth Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go and enter once into this question with vs in earnest whether your Religion or ours be the trueth and for the triall thereof will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them colour your refusing thus to doe with what colours possibly you can you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause and euidently shewe that you onely seeke shifts hoales and corners to escape as long as you may the discredit therof And your owne frends will they nill they shal be inforced to see the same You conclude with prayer that we may drawe as neare you as we are farre from you and that we may turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your hurt and our owne you say we haue forsaken Insteede of Amen to yours I beseech the Lord of all mercies and father of our Lord Iesus Christ that it would please him of his infinit goodnes and mercy euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake to open the eies of your mindes and so to touch your hearts as that you may haue grace with vs to come out of Babylon and to leaue that garish whore of Rome with all her abhominations and so to ioyne with vs in the true communion of Saints and fellowship of the trueth and spirit that both you and we may dwell togither as brethren in one house agree and growe togither as members of one body rest togither as sheepe of one flocke vnder one father God almighty vnder one head shepheard Christ Iesus through the mighty working of the holy Ghost to Gods glory and our owne euerlasting comfort Amen FINIS A short answere to a new offer not published at the first when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands whereunto it is now annexed the ground and matter whereof is an enumeration of six certaine and assured signes and tokens as the offerer calleth them of Antichristians false prophets heretiques and schismatiques mentioned in diuerse places of the scripture COncerning these sixe signes welbeloued this is his offer that if by the learned protestāt they can be proued more aptly and truely to agree to him his fellowes of the commō knowen catholick church of Christ thē vnto the protestāts of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations that then he wil submit yeelde recant and not before Learned protestant I take my selfe to be none howbeit finding as I did when I tooke first in hand to answer Iohn de Albines former discourse that the publisher thereof had therewithall published not only the offer of a proud papist to a learned protestant cōsisting of 22. challenges or demaunds long ago answered by the men aboue named but also with this new addition of these six signes and then not vnderstanding though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgst vs in English that any learned or vnlearned had vouchsafed to answer it though I thought it needles to answer againe the offer of 22. demaunds so wel answered by the foresaied mē before that the authour thereof neuer since had pleasure to reply I thought it yet