Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A Word B Word C Word D Occurrence Frequency Band MI MI Band Prominent
religion_n ancient_a church_n father_n 2,767 4 4.9407 4 false
View all documents for the selected quad

Text snippets containing the quad

ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A10907 An answer to Mr. Fisher the Iesuite, his fiue propositions concerning Luther. By Mr. Rogers, that worthy Oxford diuine. VVith some passages also of the said Mr. Rogers with the said Mr. Fisher. Hereunto is annexed Mr. VV.C. his dialogue of the said argument, wherein is discouered Fishers folly Rogers, Henry, ca. 1585-1658.; Crashaw, William, 1572-1626. aut 1623 (1623) STC 21177; ESTC S116093 13,598 35

There are 3 snippets containing the selected quad. | View lemmatised text

sometime in another as it pleased God in his wise dispensation who caries the light of his Gospell as hee doth the Sunne through the world to illuminate nations at seuerall times therewith according to his will E. That is a faire generall but will you tell vs who were these what countrey people what Doctors who taught as yee teach D. Looke the Churches of Asia Africke and of Europe consider them as they were before the mystery of iniquitie ca●e to the height and you shall see that they all had the same doctrine a●d forme of a Church that wee haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion E. But you are not able to name one before Luther teaching in all things as he did D. This is a peece of Sophistrie whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant E How so should not the teachers of the truth agree in all things in one harmonie D. I grant they should and thanks be to God they do also in all substantiall things which are the Articles of our faith The Buckler of Fa●●● published in French by M. Peter du Moulin translated into English twise printed Anno 1624 is a most excellent book for these present times concerning Luther c. let Luther answer it at his best le●sure or Sweet or Anthony 〈◊〉 of any Iesuit or Masse-priest whosoeuer But is this a good reason because some Doctors in some opinions differ whereof men may be ignorant and saued neuerthelesse that therefore these Doctors teach no truth and their Churches are no true Churches E. That seemes to be hard indeed D. You haue reason for you so to think For in one age Victor with the Church in the West was in a different opinion from Policrates and the Churches of the East and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine and the first ●athers of the primitiue Church were Chiliasts shall it thereupon follow that because in this point they taught not in all things as wee doe that therefore they were not a Church E. It is no reason D. Cyprian in the point of rebaptizing taught not as Cornelius what of that will it follow that he was not a faithfull Pastor or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church E. It followes not indeed D. VVhy then do you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Calvin who in all points taught as wee teach The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent are men subiect to infirmities for no man vpon earth hath his vnderstanding perfect whereof it comes to passe that in some things one of them differs from another but as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes saluation sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian Ambrose Augustine Luther and Calvin haue all deliuered one doctrine and did teach the way of God truly E. Then you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion D. I thinke so indeed and hope to die in the same faith wherein they liued and died E. It would be thought strange to heare that in Italy that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion D. No marvell though it be strange there where truth is a stranger but this answer was giuen you and them both by a worthy Doctor of our Church The light of Cambridge M. Doctor Whitakers in Camplanum M. Doctor Whitakers and yet we stand to it Patros in maximis sunt nostri in multis narij in minimis vestri Such Fathers saith Doctor Whitakers as haue written before vs and you both in greatest things are ours in many things are doubtfull in smallest things they are yours E. Well I will remember that God willing but in the dayes of Papistrie wherewith you say the world was blinded where was your Church D. Answer me but another question and it shall resolue you E. What is that D. Your Doctors say that when Antichrist shall come the Church shall flie to the Desert that is as themselues expound it The Rhemists vpon Reuel 11. The Church shall be without publike state of regiment and open free exercise of holy functions neither shall it be vnknowne to the faithfull which follow it as this day may be seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholikes in many parts of England E. What doth that helpe you D. Very much That which they themselues say will be done we say is done Antichrist hath already chased the Church to the wildernesse and so oppressed it that for a time it had no publike state of regiment nor open free exercise of holy functions yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it nor to the enemies that persecu●ed it as this day may be seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France E. Will ye make that cleare and I thinke you haue wonne much D. VVhat greater clearnesse can you craue If this answer be good to cleare the Popes Church when they say it will be obscured by Antichrist and yet be is it not as good to iustifie our Church when we say it hath been obscured by Antichrist and yet was E. The answer is good enough only if you can I would haue you qualifie it more particularly D. There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day wherein I cannot point forth men preaching and professing as we doe but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistrie I will let you see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs where our Church then was for they found vs alwayes in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin were borne E. Make that good D. See Reinerus vpon the Apoc. Reinerus a popish Inquisitor who liued more then three hundred yeares ago speaking of the poore men of Lyons and calling them in contempt Valdenses Leonistae saith they were more pernicious to the Church of Rome then all other sects 3. Reasons why the Walden●es much vexed the Rom. Church for three causes First because it hath been of longer continuance for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no Land in the which this Sect doth not creepe The third cause for that all other Sects doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed onely they blaspheme and hate the Church of Rome Now there is the testimonie of an enemie making answer for vs which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more Where was your Church before Luther E. 1. but he calls them a Sect and sayes they blasphemed the Church D. So the Priests of the Iewes called the Church of Christians a Sect
the dayes of Luther 1. Doctor White to begin first with him in his book intituled The Way to the true Church Digression 52. sheweth that the present Religion of the Romane Church was obserued and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased naming withall the persons that made resistance and the points wherein and the time when from fiftie yeares to fiftie throughout all ages since Christ compendiously obserued out of history for the satisfying of their error that so much conceit the antiquitie of Papistrie and thinke it was neuer controlled till Luthers time And Digression 48 Sect. 50. the said Doctor White setteth downe a briefe and direct answer to the Papists when they say we cannot assigne a visible company professing the same faith in euery point that we doe euer since Christ till now without interruption 2. Flacius Illyricus the second I named in his booke intituled Catalogus testim veritatis A Catalogue of the witnesses of the truth augmented twice by Simon Goulartius and by him the second time set out in one volume in a large Folio sheweth that the present rel gion of the Romane Church wa● obserued and resisted in all ages as it came in and increased naming withall the persons that made the resistance and the points wherein and the time when from an hundred yeares to an hundred throughout all ages since Christ compendiously obserued out of history for the satisfying of their error that so much conceit the antiquitie of Papistrie and thinke it was neuer controlled till Luthers time 3. The third is Doctor Reinolds that light of Oxford in his fift Conclusion quinta Conclus in English ioyned to the end of his Conference with Hart but far more ●●lly in his fift Latin Thesis quinta Thes of the last augmented Edition sheweth that the present Church of Rome is neither the holy Catholicke Church nor a sound member of the Catholicke Church that the present Religion of the Romane Church was obserued and resisted in all ages bringeth in abundantly proofes and testimonies out of the ancient Fathers Councels and records good Authors School-men the Papists owne writings c. in all the controuerted points betwixt the Protestants and Papists 4. The fourth is Amandus Polanus his Symphonia Catholica though named the last yet as admirable as the rest yea in one thing more admirable viz. in bringing in the ancient Fathers in all the controuerted points betwixt Protestants and Papists in all ages most fully E. You come to the point indeed and say more then euer I heard and I hope these your foure bookes wil make all this good that you haue named D. They will indeed most plentifully take them away with you and keepe them euen so long as you please E. I thanke you most heartily good Sir you bring me to a feast indeed● what varietie of daintie dishes haue you set before me D. God in Christ Iesus blesse them vnto you An Advertisement to the Reader concerning Polanus his Symphonia Catholica and Mr. Robert Cooke his booke concerning counterfet Fathers Polanus his Symphonia Catholica is written in common-place manner out of the ancient Fathers and other good Authors from the dayes of Christ and his Apostles to the times of Luther handling the principall controuerted points methodically betwixt the Protestants and the Papists written purposely to satisfie that demand of Papists Where was the Protestants religion before the times of Luther Oh that some good religious Scholler or other would translate it into English for the common profite of the Church of England against the insulting brags of Fisher and other Papists who say we had no religion before Luthers times that hee hatched it c. I wish likewise that M. Robert Cooke his Latin Treatise concerning counterfet Fathers was translated into English for the good of those who vnderstand not Latin Papists alledging counterfet Fathers so often FINIS
of Nazarites Acts 24.5 what is that to the matter yet he grants they are such a Sect as first had been from the beginning secondly had been in all countreys and thirdly was honest in life and sound in faith saue onely that they held the Church of Rome to be the Whore of Babel And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may be further remoued out of your mind I pray you consider this think you not that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach If our doctrine was in former ages you will not deny that our Church was then also E. That cannot be denied D. Well then if you please name me any controuersie of religion The Ancient Fathers concerning any article of faith between vs and the Papists this day and you shall see that the ancient Fathers take our part in it E. That is strange for they repose their chiefest strength and trust in the ancient Fathers D. Brag what they will it is true I say they may well boast in the drosse of Fathers and decke their errors with it but we shall bring you their finest gold Name you the controuersie and you shall trie that which I say to be a truth E. There are so many controuersies among you that I know not which of them to name first D. Then will it please you to take a view of those which I haue gathered for my owne priuate vse E. With a very good will let me see what they are D. They are noted set downe in foure special books of the Protestants and I haue obserued and collected them for my owne comfort and confirmation in the faith for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures so finding that the Doctors of the primitiue Church produced in these foure speciall books 1. Doctor White his Way to the true Church 2. Illyricus his Catalogus testim veritatis augmented twice by Goularitus 3. Doctor Reinolds his fiue conclusions or Theses the fift quinta Conclus quinta Thes in English but more large in Latin 4. Polanus his Symphonia Catholica speciall bookes writ by foure Protestant Preachers expounded the Scriptures conformable to the doctrine of our teachers I was greatly therein confirmed for these are the two great props of our faith which ●inentius giues vs against all heresies Cap. 2. E. You haue reason for you for if your doctrine be so warranted Two maine props proofs of religion both by diuine authoritie of God in his word and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church they are to be iudged most vnworthy that make contradiction to you D. These points are so fully performed as I haue said in three special books by three worthy Protestant Diuines and so methodically set downe that I thinke my shewing to you of these three bookes and your reading of them will most fully content and satisfie you I say againe by Gods help they will giue you most full satisfaction as also to all others who with indifferencie wil vouchsafe to reade them F. I pray you who be those three Diuines who haue writ those three bookes and which be the bookes D. Doctor White is the first and the booke is his Way to the true Church E. Which is the second D. Fla●cus Illyricus his Catalogus testium veritatis augmented twice by Simon Goulartius set out by him the second time in one volume in a large Folio E. Which is the third D. Doctor Reinolds his six Conclusions in English placed at the end of his Conference with Hart but it is his fift Conclusion which I meane for this purpose quinta Conclus or his six Theses in Latin of his last augmented Edition and thereof I meane his fift Thes quinta Thes more full then the English E. And what haue these foure Diuines performed in those foure bookes to giue comfort content and satisfaction on this very point we haue now in hand viz. Where your Church doctrine teachers were before Luther for I assure you this is the maine matter which troubleth many at this present for Campian was not so busie in Queen Elizabeths dayes with his Audito nomine Ecclesiae hostis expalluit but Fisher Sweet Clarke and other Iesuites are as busie now in King Iames his dayes euen at this present with their Where was your Church before Luther Where your Preachers where your professors where your doctrine let vs heare their names Names names names names cries the Fisher catched in his owne Net D. What haue they performed enough at the full in the mercie of God to satisfie you and all other indifferent Readers that without preiudice looke into those their labours E. How might I come by those bookes may I meet with them in Pauls Church-yard for I would very gladly buy them D. You may most easily but stay let mee a little call back that word for they are so fast bought vp that I doubt they are almost out of print for and that worthily they are exceedingly in request E. So much the more the Printers are too blame that they giue not a second impression to them D. A second impression say you why Doctor Whites Way to the true Church hath beene printed foure seuerall times now within a few yeares and notwithstanding are almost all sold vp but I heare a fifth impression is now in hand Polanus his Symphonia Illyricus and Doctor Reinolds their bookes before named haue beene diuers times imprinted also so that you need not blame the Printers who are carefull to make new impressions and new supplies of bookes so worthy and so much in request and so greatly sought after E. This should argue that their bookes by Gods blessing are very powerfull and win many to the truth they vent so exceedingly fast D. O yes God be thanked preaching and writing succeed happily with a blessed successe doubt you not but at this day for one Papist England doth enioy xx xl yea rather an hundred Protestants Masses and stage-playes grow odious E. You make me long for these foure bookes I would gladly be in hand with them D. Why Sir seeing your longing is so great I haue them at hand for you vse them so long as you please now I fetch them out of my Studie E. Are these they Sir I pray you D. Yes indeed these are the very bookes E. Now I pray you Sir before that we open them tell me in briefe what they say and performe in these matters D. That good Sir I will most willingly performe E. And I most willingly listen and giue attentiue care vnto you D. God direct with his holy Spirit and giue a blessing in his Sonne Christ Iesus These foure bookes following do fully furnish any Scholler to make answer to all Iesuits Masse-priests Fisher Clarke Sweet c. to that question Where was your Religion before