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reason_n objection_n papist_n retort_v 160 3 18.5199 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A00580 The theater of honour and knight-hood. Or A compendious chronicle and historie of the whole Christian vvorld Containing the originall of all monarchies, kingdomes, and estates, with their emperours, kings, princes, and gouernours; their beginnings, continuance, and successions, to this present time. The first institution of armes, emblazons, kings, heralds, and pursuiuants of armes: with all the ancient and moderne military orders of knight-hood in euery kingdome. Of duelloes or single combates ... Likewise of ioustes, tourneyes, and tournaments, and orders belonging to them. Lastly of funerall pompe, for emperours, kings, princes, and meaner persons, with all the rites and ceremonies fitting for them. VVritten in French, by Andrew Fauine, Parisian: and aduocate in the High Court of Parliament. M.DC.XX.; Le théâtre d'honneur et de chevalerie. English Favyn, André.; Munday, Anthony, 1553-1633, attributed name. 1623 (1623) STC 10717; ESTC S121368 185,925 1,158

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hand_n to_o the_o true_a relation_n thereof_o long_o ago_o send_v you_o nihil_fw-la veritas_fw-la erubescit_fw-la nisi_fw-la solumodo_fw-la abscondi_fw-la truth_n never_o blush_v but_o when_o she_o be_v hide_v she_o fear_v nothing_o but_o not_o to_o be_v bring_v to_o her_o trial_n he_o who_o know_v his_o coin_n be_v pure_a gold_n will_v never_o refuse_v to_o offer_v it_o to_o the_o goldsmith_n test_n because_o he_o can_v loose_v nothing_o by_o it_o but_o shall_v have_v allowance_n for_o it_o beside_o your_o friend_n boast_v at_o the_o conference_n your_o own_o promise_n in_o the_o conference_n deep_o engage_v you_o to_o assoil_v the_o argument_n then_o urge_v against_o your_o half_a communion_n whereunto_o at_o the_o present_a you_o return_v not_o so_o much_o as_o half_a a_o answer_n plead_v for_o yourself_o the_o short_a scantling_n of_o time_n which_o give_v you_o not_o space_n to_o wield_v yonr_a catholic_a buckler_n scitum_fw-la est_fw-la enim_fw-la culpam_fw-la conijcere_fw-la intempus_fw-la cum_fw-la ultra_fw-la addere_fw-la si_fw-la maximèvelis_fw-la non_fw-la possis_fw-la the_o roman_a orator_n tell_v you_o it_o be_v a_o handsome_a put-off_a to_o lay_v the_o blame_n upon_o the_o time_n when_o a_o advocate_n have_v never_o a_o word_n more_o to_o say_v for_o his_o client_n but_o veritas_fw-la temporis_fw-la filia_fw-la truth_n be_v time_n daughter_n &_o she_o will_v justify_v her_o mother_n if_o in_o so_o long_a a_o tract_n of_o time_n as_o have_v run_v since_o our_o meeting_n in_o noble-street_n you_o have_v full_o and_o punctual_o satisfy_v those_o argument_n than_o leave_v untouched_a you_o have_v salve_v your_o cause_n and_o credit_n and_o make_v it_o appear_v you_o be_v not_o want_v to_o time_n but_o time_n then_o to_o you_o but_o now_o since_o you_o have_v break_v so_o often_o day_n after_o day_n and_o month_n after_o month_n and_o by_o this_o time_n year_n after_o year_n be_v for_n oft_o challenge_v of_o your_o promise_n yea_o &_o upbraid_v also_o by_o s._n p._n l._n and_o the_o lord_n t._n and_o other_o and_o in_o fine_a your_o resolution_n be_v to_o give_v no_o resolution_n of_o those_o doubt_n i_o will_v be_v bold_a to_o tell_v you_o that_o time_n will_v now_o no_o more_o bear_v your_o blame_n but_o you_o and_o your_o cause_n must_v bear_v it_o off_o with_o head_n and_o shoulder_n you_o can_v now_o go_v back_o lis_n contestata_fw-la est_fw-la praelium_fw-la condictum_fw-la the_o field_n be_v pitch_v the_o weapon_n be_v choose_v the_o question_n agree_v upon_o be_v the_o communion_n in_o one_o kind_n the_o proof_n must_v be_v scripture_n and_o the_o perpetual_a custom_n of_o the_o church_n if_o by_o both_o your_o romish_a practice_n be_v convince_v to_o be_v sacrilege_n in_o the_o high_a degree_n then_o write_v hereafter_o your_o brag_v laiety_n in_o redinke_n and_o let_v your_o line_n blush_v for_o shame_n and_o do_v you_o yourself_o ingenious_o confess_v concern_v sacrilege_n as_o papinian_n do_v concern_v fatricide_n that_o it_o be_v as_o difficult_a and_o dangerous_a a_o matter_n to_o defend_v the_o murder_n of_o a_o brother_n as_o to_o commit_v it_o but_o on_o the_o contrary_a if_o by_o the_o evidence_n of_o scripture_n and_o coustant_a practice_n of_o the_o catholic_a christian_a church_n you_o can_v justify_v your_o romish_a dry_a communion_n you_o shall_v not_o only_o gain_v your_o pretend_a catholic_a cause_n but_o i_o also_o your_o proselyte_n d._n f._n the_o particular_a content_n of_o the_o several_a chapter_n of_o this_o book_n chap._n 1._o the_o state_n of_o the_o question_n concern_v the_o communion_n in_o both_o kind_n be_v set_v down_o out_o of_o the_o harmony_n of_o protestant_a confession_n on_o the_o one_o sida_n and_o out_o of_o the_o canon_n of_o the_o counsel_n of_o constance_n basil_n and_o trent_n on_o the_o otherside_n chap._n 2._o the_o first_o argument_n for_o the_o tenent_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n draw_v from_o christ_n precept_n and_o example_n in_o the_o celebration_n of_o the_o sacrament_n confirm_v by_o the_o testimony_n of_o pope_n julius_n the_o first_o chap._n 3._o the_o second_o argument_n for_o the_o communion_n in_o both_o kind_n draw_v from_o the_o essence_n and_o perfection_n of_o this_o sacrament_n confirm_v by_o vasquez_n the_o jesuite_n chap_n 4._o the_o three_o argument_n draw_v from_o the_o analogy_n of_o the_o sign_n to_o the_o thing_n signify_v confirm_v by_o gratian_n the_o canonist_n chap._n 5._o the_o four_o argument_n draw_v from_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o banquet_n or_o supper_n confirm_v by_o aquinas_n and_o vasquez_n chap._n 6._o the_o five_o argument_n draw_v from_o the_o express_a precept_n of_o drink_v at_o the_o lord_n table_n confirm_v by_o the_o testimony_n of_o pope_n innocen_n the_o 3._o chap._n 7._o the_o six_o argument_n draw_v à_fw-la pari_fw-la confirm_v by_o bonaventure_n the_o school_n divine_a and_o other_o chap._n 8._o the_o seven_o argument_n draw_v from_o the_o condition_n and_o propriety_n of_o a_o will_n or_o legacy_n confirm_v by_o jansonius_n etc._n etc._n chap._n 9_o the_o eight_o argument_n draw_v from_o the_o end_n of_o the_o sacrament_n confirm_v by_o jac._n rehing_n be_v then_o a_o jesuite_n chap._n 10._o the_o nine_o argument_n draw_v from_o the_o example_n of_o saint_n paul_n and_o the_o corinthian_n confirm_v by_o becanus_n the_o jesuite_n chap._n 11._o the_o ten_o argument_n draw_v from_o the_o uniform_a and_o constant_a practice_n of_o the_o christian_a catholic_a church_n in_o all_o age_n sect._n 1_o the_o testimony_n of_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n from_o christ_n ascension_n to_o 100_o year_n sect._n 2._o testimony_n in_o the_o second_o age_n from_o 100_o to_o 200._o sect._n 3_o testimony_n in_o the_o three_o age_n from_o 200._o to_o 300._o sect._n 4._o testimony_n in_o the_o four_o age_n from_o 300._o to_o 400._o sect._n 5._o testimony_n in_o the_o five_o age_n from_o 400._o to_o 500_o sect._n 6._o testimony_n in_o the_o six_o age_n from_o 500_o to_o 600._o sect._n 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soto_n joh._n arborius_n ruardus_n tapperus_n alsonsus_fw-la a_o castro_n slotanus_n salmeron_n gregory_n de_fw-fr valentia_n and_o suarez_n chap._n 12._o papist_n objection_n for_o their_o half_a communion_n from_o scripture_n answer_v and_o retort_v chap._n 13._o papist_n objection_n from_o counsel_n answer_v and_o retort_v chap._n 14._o papist_n objection_n from_o sundry_a pretend_a rite_n and_o custom_n of_o the_o church_n answer_v and_o retort_v chap._n 15._o papist_n objection_n from_o reason_n answer_v and_o retort_v chap._n 16._o the_o contradiction_n of_o papist_n in_o this_o question_n note_v and_o the_o whole_a truth_n for_o we_o deliver_v out_o of_o their_o own_o mouth_n the_o contens_fw-fr of_o the_o conference_n of_o the_o necessity_n of_o episcopal_a government_n of_o ordination_n by_o presbyter_n or_o priest_n in_o case_n of_o necessity_n of_o the_o distinction_n of_o bishop_n and_o priests_z jure_fw-la divino_fw-la of_o difference_n among_o papist_n in_o matter_n of_o faith_n of_o the_o immaculate_a conception_n of_o the_o virgin_n marie_n of_o the_o authority_n of_o general_n counsel_n above_o the_o pope_n &_o ècont_v of_o prayer_n for_o the_o dead_a of_o the_o authority_n of_o original_a scripture_n of_o the_o communion_n in_o both_o kind_n of_o the_o pope_n supremacy_n of_o mingle_v water_n with_o wine_n in_o the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o perfection_n of_o scripture_n a_o advertisement_n to_o the_o reader_n it_o fall_v out_o often_o with_o student_n in_o controversy_n as_o with_o people_n in_o the_o market_n who_o take_v money_n with_o they_o at_o their_o go_v from_o home_n and_o espy_v in_o the_o fair_a some_o merchandise_n they_o like_v when_o they_o have_v drive_v the_o price_n and_o be_v draw_v out_o their_o purse_n they_o find_v it_o either_o pick_v or_o the_o string_n cut_v in_o like_a manner_n these_o student_n meet_v with_o some_o pregnant_a testimony_n allege_v out_o of_o the_o ancient_a father_n or_o late_a writer_n in_o apology_n for_o
sacrament_n to_o coin_v new_a father_n be_v a_o usual_a practice_n and_o therefore_o of_o no_o transcend_a merit_n but_o to_o coin_v new_a canon_n of_o general_a counsel_n and_o to_o forge_v record_n of_o such_o antiquity_n as_o be_v the_o true_a council_n of_o ephesus_n can_v be_v no_o less_o than_o a_o work_n of_o supererogation_n to_o the_o allegation_n out_o of_o the_o council_n of_o constance_n we_o answer_v first_o that_o it_o be_v no_o general_a council_n the_o eastern_a church_n of_o as_o large_a or_o large_a extent_n than_o the_o western_a send_v no_o patriarch_n or_o bishop_n thither_o second_o this_o council_n be_v impeach_v by_o the_o roman_a church_n itself_o bellarmine_n de_fw-fr council_n cap._n 7._o k_o speak_v of_o this_o council_n of_o constance_n say_v this_o council_n so_o much_o as_o concern_v the_o hierarchi●…_n first_o session_n be_v disallow_v and_o repeal_v in_o the_o counsel_n of_o florence_n and_o lateran_n albertus_n pighius_fw-la be_v yet_o hot_a against_o 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of_o a_o communion_n of_o such_o thing_n as_o be_v before_o consecrate_v all_o which_o observation_n be_v as_o headless_a arrow_n shoot_v at_o random_n falces_fw-la petebamus_fw-la we_o demand_v scythe_n and_o they_o answer_v we_o with_o mattock_n our_o question_n be_v of_o the_o public_a and_o general_a practice_n of_o the_o church_n their_o answer_n be_v of_o private_a custom_n our_o question_n be_v of_o the_o lawful_a use_n of_o the_o lord_n supper_n their_o answer_n be_v of_o abuse_n and_o corruption_n our_o question_n be_v of_o the_o deprive_v the_o laiety_n of_o the_o cup_n their_o answer_n be_v of_o priest_n our_o question_n be_v of_o fit_a and_o worthy_a receiver_n qualify_v to_o communicate_v in_o both_o kind_n their_o answer_n be_v of_o child_n excommunicate_a person_n or_o man_n lie_v on_o their_o deathbed_n this_o may_v suffice_v to_o wash_v away_o their_o varnish_n of_o antiquity_n yet_o lest_o they_o shall_v accuse_v we_o as_o fimbria_n do_v sometime_o scecuola_n quòd_fw-la non_fw-la totum_fw-la telum_fw-la corporereceperimus_fw-la that_o we_o receive_v not_o the_o full_a thrust_n into_o our_o body_n i_o will_v bring_v in_o their_o great_a cardinal_n lay_v amain_o at_o we_o in_o this_o wise_a sect_n i._o from_o the_o reservation_n of_o the_o sacrament_n thus_o he_o dispute_v against_o we_o 24._o that_o the_o sacrament_n be_v accustom_v ancient_o to_o be_v reserve_v we_o have_v prove_v by_o the_o testimony_n of_o father_n &_o counsel_n now_o that_o it_o be_v reserve_v in_o one_o kind_n only_o and_o consequent_o that_o the_o communicant_n receive_v in_o one_o kind_n only_o it_o be_v manifest_a because_o sometime_o they_o reserve_v it_o for_o a_o very_a long_a time_n sophronius_n in_o his_o spiritual_a meadow_n relate_v of_o the_o keep_n of_o it_o for_o a_o whole_a year_n but_o wine_n especial_o in_o a_o small_a quantity_n can_v not_o be_v keep_v so_o long_o because_o within_o that_o time_n it_o will_v be_v corrupt_v the_o answer_n first_o
that_o mean_v while_o have_v be_v keep_v it_o will_v have_v be_v dead_a in_o the_o pix_n hugo_n card._n say_v christ_n passion_n be_v the_o truth_n and_o the_o sacrament_n be_v a_o figure_n of_o the_o same_o therefore_o when_o the_o truth_n be_v come_v the_o figure_n give_v place_n consider_v we_o the_o weight_n of_o these_o reason_n the_o apostle_n flee_v sixteen_o hundred_o year_n ago_o on_o good-friday_n therefore_o we_o must_v not_o now_o on_o that_o day_n consecrate_v the_o element_n or_o communicate_v in_o both_o kind_n on_o good-friday_n christ_n suffer_v his_o blood_n then_o be_v sever_v from_o the_o body_n therefore_o now_o we_o must_v not_o receive_v his_o body_n and_o blood_n on_o that_o day_n christ_n passion_n be_v on_o that_o day_n therefore_o we_o must_v never_o receive_v the_o figure_n thereof_o on_o that_o day_n 2._o concern_v the_o custom_n of_o the_o greek_a church_n it_o be_v true_a that_o the_o greek_a church_n in_o lent_n 2_o use_v to_o consecrate_v only_o upon_o saturday_n and_o sunday_n and_o on_o the_o other_o day_n of_o the_o week_n they_o do_v communicate_v ex_fw-la praesanctificatis_fw-la of_o the_o presanctified_a form_n which_o have_v be_v consecrate_v the_o saturday_n or_o sunday_n before_o as_o may_v be_v gather_v out_o of_o the_o 49._o canon_n of_o the_o council_n of_o laodocea_n and_o 52._o canon_n of_o the_o council_n in_o trullo_n sed_fw-la quid_fw-la ad_fw-la rhombum_fw-la we_o dispute_v not_o of_o the_o communion_n of_o thing_n before_o consecrate_v but_o of_o the_o communion_n of_o both_o kind_n such_o no_o doubt_n be_v this_o communion_n of_o the_o greek_n as_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d or_o praesanctificata_n in_o the_o plural_a number_n do_v imply_v it_o be_v not_o call_v by_o balsamo_n upon_o the_o 52._o canon_n of_o the_o six_o council_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d not_o a_o communion_n of_o presanctified_a bread_n but_o of_o presanctified_a mystery_n this_o headless_a arrow_n therefore_o as_o all_o the_o former_a may_v be_v thus_o head_v and_o shoot_v back_o upon_o our_o adversary_n retortion_n if_o the_o communion_n of_o presanctified_a element_n be_v in_o both_o kind_n this_o rite_n of_o the_o greek_a church_n no_o way_n suport_v but_o quite_o overthrow_v the_o romish_a half_a communion_n in_o one_o kind_n only_o but_o the_o communion_n of_o presanctified_a element_n of_o the_o greek_a church_n be_v in_o both_o kind_n ergo_fw-la this_o rite_n of_o the_o greek_a church_n no_o way_n support_v but_o quite_o overthrow_v the_o romish_a half_a communion_n in_o one_o kind_n only_o that_o this_o communion_n in_o the_o greek_a church_n be_v in_o both_o kind_n we_o need_v no_o better_a evidence_n than_o the_o seruice-booke_n or_o office_n of_o the_o greek_a church_n wherein_o we_o read_v that_o after_o the_o priest_n have_v sanctify_v the_o bread_n he_o pour_v wine_n and_o water_n into_o the_o sacred_a cup_n and_o rehearse_v the_o accustom_a word_n in_o the_o liturgy_n itself_o call_v liturgia_fw-la praesanctificatorum_fw-la the_o dreadful_a mystery_n be_v name_v in_o the_o plural_a number_n and_o that_o all_o that_o communicate_v receive_v in_o both_o kind_n it_o appear_v by_o the_o form_n of_o thanksgiving_n there_o set_v down_o we_o give_v thanks_o to_o thou_o o_o god_n the_o saviour_n of_o all_o for_o all_o thy_o benefit_n which_o thou_o have_v bestow_v upon_o we_o and_o in_o special_a for_o that_o thou_o have_v vouch_v save_v 〈◊〉_d to_o make_v we_o partaker_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o thy_o christ._n chap._n xv._n the_o argument_n of_o papist_n draw_v from_o reason_n answer_v and_o retort_v sect_n i._o our_o adversary_n be_v drive_v to_o rake_v hell_n for_o argument_n and_o to_o beg_v proof_n from_o damn_a heretic_n such_o as_o be_v the_o manichee_n from_o who_o dissemble_v at_o the_o lord_n supper_n our_o equivocate_a jesuit_n will_v make_v we_o believe_v that_o their_o half_a communion_n be_v in_o use_n in_o the_o primitive_a church_n the_o manichee_n 5._o say_v fisher_n live_v in_o rome_n and_o other_o place_n shroud_a themselves_o among_o catholic_n go_v to_o their_o church_n receive_v the_o sacrament_n public_o with_o they_o under_o the_o sole_a form_n of_o bread_n yet_o they_o be_v not_o note_v nor_o then_o discern_v from_o catholic_n a_o manifest_a sign_n say_v he_o that_o communion_n under_o one_o kind_n be_v public_o in_o the_o church_n permit_v for_o how_o can_v the_o manichee_n still_o refuse_v the_o cup_n have_v be_v hide_v among_o those_o ancient_a christian_n if_o they_o have_v be_v persuade_v as_o now_o protestant_n be_v that_o receive_v one_o kind_n only_o be_v sacrilege_n the_o like_a argument_n master_n harding_n draw_v from_o a_o trick_n of_o leger_n demaine_n use_v by_o a_o cunning_a housewife_n who_o make_v her_o husband_n believe_v that_o she_o receive_v the_o bread_n from_o the_o priest_n stoop_v down_o as_o if_o she_o have_v pray_v but_o receive_v of_o her_o servant_n stand_v by_o she_o somewhat_o that_o she_o have_v bring_v for_o she_o from_o home_n which_o she_o have_v no_o soon_o put_v into_o her_o mouth_n but_o it_o harden_v into_o a_o stone_n if_o this_o seem_v to_o any_o incredible_a say_v 1._o sozomen_n that_o stone_n be_v a_o witness_n which_o to_o this_o day_n be_v keep_v among_o the_o jewel_n of_o the_o church_n of_o constantinople_n by_o this_o stone_n it_o be_v clear_a say_v master_n harding_n the_o sacrament_n be_v then_o minister_v under_o one_o kind_n only_o for_o by_o receive_v that_o one_o form_n this_o woman_n will_v have_v persuade_v her_o husband_n that_o she_o have_v communicate_v with_o he_o else_o if_o both_o kind_n have_v be_v minister_v she_o will_v have_v practise_v foam_n other_o shift_n for_o the_o avoid_n of_o the_o cup_n which_o have_v not_o be_v so_o easy_a 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d a_o ill_a egg_n of_o a_o ill_a bird_n a_o loose_a inference_n of_o a_o lewd_a practice_n as_o if_o the_o manichee_n in_o rome_n or_o this_o woman_n in_o constantinople_n may_v not_o pitisare_n sip_n and_o make_v as_o if_o they_o drink_v and_o yet_o let_v not_o a_o drop_n go_v down_o or_o as_o if_o this_o their_o fraud_n be_v not_o discover_v howsoever_o these_o disemble_v it_o be_v certain_a out_o of_o saint_n leo_n in_o his_o 4._o sermon_n of_o lent_n and_o saint_n chrysostome_n 18._o homile_n upon_o the_o second_o to_o the_o corinthian_n that_o the_o faithful_a people_n of_o rome_n and_o constantinople_n receive_v the_o communion_n in_o both_o kind_n for_o saint_n leo_n in_o the_o place_n above_o allege_v give_v this_o as_o a_o mark_n to_o descry_v manichee_n from_o other_o christian_a people_n intrude_a among_o they_o at_o the_o lord_n table_n by_o refuse_v to_o drink_v the_o blood_n of_o christ_n with_o they_o and_o saint_n chrysostome_n say_v express_o that_o there_o be_v no_o difference_n betwixt_o priest_n and_o people_n in_o participate_v the_o dreadful_a mystery_n therefore_o as_o the_o priest_n in_o constantinople_n and_o every_o where_o else_o in_o his_o time_n receive_v the_o communion_n in_o both_o kind_n so_o do_v the_o people_n sect_n ii_o to_o leave_v these_o absurd_a inference_n of_o the_o papist_n from_o the_o ungodly_a practice_n of_o heretic_n i_o come_v now_o in_o the_o last_o place_n to_o batter_v and_o break_v in_o piece_n such_o weapon_n as_o they_o hammer_n against_o we_o in_o the_o forge_n of_o reason_n the_o first_o reason_n they_o shape_n in_o this_o wise_a 7._o if_o whole_a christ_n body_n blood_n soul_n and_o divinity_n be_v under_o the_o form_n of_o bread_n the_o laiety_n be_v no_o way_n wrong_v by_o deny_v they_o the_o cup_n but_o whole_a christ_n be_v under_o the_o form_n of_o bread_n to_o wit_n his_o body_n blood_n soul_n and_o divinity_n therefore_o the_o laiety_n be_v not_o wrong_v by_o deny_v they_o the_o cup._n that_o whole_a christ_n be_v under_o the_o form_n of_o bread_n they_o prove_v by_o the_o unseparable_a union_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n etc._n etc._n since_o his_o ascension_n his_o body_n now_o in_o heaven_n be_v a_o live_a body_n and_o therefore_o have_v his_o blood_n in_o his_o vein_n and_o be_v inform_v and_o glorify_v by_o a_o most_o excellent_a soul_n therefore_o christ_n can_v say_v true_o that_o a_o body_n void_a of_o blood_n sense_n and_o soul_n be_v his_o body_n but_o soul_n life_n and_o blood_n must_v needs_o follow_v and_o concomitate_fw-la his_o body_n wheresoever_o it_o be_v therefore_o when_o the_o priest_n in_o the_o person_n of_o christ_n or_o rather_o christ_n by_o the_o mouth_n of_o the_o priest_n sai_z this_o be_v my_o body_n the_o meaning_n must_v be_v a_o live_a body_n with_o blood_n in_o the_o vein_n the_o answer_n first_o the_o doctrine_n of_o natural_a concomitancie_n presuppose_v the_o natural_a body_n of_o christ_n to_o be_v substantial_o and_o carnal_o under_o