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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82508	A defence of sundry positions, and Scriptures alledged to justifie the Congregationall-way; charged at first to be weak therein, impertinent, and unsufficient; by R.H. M. A. of Magd. Col. Cambr. in his examination of them; but upon further examination, cleerly manifested to be sufficient, pertinent, and full of power. / By [brace] Samuel Eaton, teacher, and Timothy Taylor, pastor [brace] of [brace] the church in Duckenfield, in Cheshire. Published according to order.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Taylor, Timothy, 1611 or 12-1681.	1645 (1645)	Wing E118; Thomason E308_27; ESTC R200391	116,862	145

concession that the Church Reply Acts 2. bad no ordinary Officers for none were then appointed and yet they were a church and Acts 14.23 shewes so much they were churches before the Apostles ordained Elders in them and this is all that the Position drives at And though there were generall Elders which had inspection over all Churches yet neither these nor any other Elders do * Come into the essence of Churches ingredi essentiam Ecclesiarum nor is it any formall reason why a Company of Believers are a Church because they have Elders whether extraordinary or ordinary for were it so then their priviledge to choose their Officers would be when they have Officers for then they are a Church and it would follow that they cannot choose Officers when they want them and have most need of them for then they are not a Church and so can have no such power and it is very uncomfortable for the death of an Officer might be the unchurching of a people But that which may give more satisfaction in this matter is the consideration of such Scriptures where the members mentioned apart from the Officers are called the Church of God Acts 20.28 the Elders are the persons spoken to feed the flock over which the holy Ghost hath made you over-seers the believing Ephesians are the flock who are also called the Church of God purchased with his blood * Acts 20. vers 28. So Phil. 1.1 So that a Christian people united together with an intent of constant congregating to enjoy Ordinances for their edification are a church without officers or if they have them yet without consideration of them POSITION IX She hath also full and free power to choose her own Officers without the help of Synod This though not so fully is asserted by R.M. W.T. to C. H. Classis or Presbyterie Act. 1.15 Acts. 6.3 14.23 In Church-affairs Answer of weighty and difficult common concernment as election and ordination of Elders excommunication of an Elder it is safe and wholesome and an boly Ordinance to proceed with consultation and consent of the churches Prov. 11.14 (p) Cottons Keys p. 55. Reply This Position saith not that a particular Congregation or Church of Brethren have full and free power to choose her own Officers without asking or seeking the help of advice and direction from Synod Classis or Presbyterie nor do we think that there is any such meaning in it but without authoritative help of a Synod Classis or Presbyterie for in all those places of the Acts the churches had the help of direction but they were not strengthened by the interposition of the authority of the Apostles or of any other You will not take upon you hastily to censure the many notable precedents of ancient and latter Synods Answer who have put forth the Acts of power in ordination and excommunication (q) Cottons Keys p. 28. Reply 1. The grave Author of this speech meddles not with election in that place quoted but this Position runs of election 2. He keeps himself from an hasty and peremptory censuring of ancient precedents who have put forth acts of power in ordination and excommunication but he declares his opinion against it and we approve as well of his modesty as we do agree with him in his judgement We hold it a priviledge of the people especially if they proceed wisely and piously to elect their Officers Answer and an injury to obtrude any on them without their consent 1. What people are these that have this priviledge Reply Cottons Keys pag. 12. the Author whom you make use of so oft calls them Church of Brethren is it a people-priviledge or a church-priviledge to choose Ecclesiasticall Officers 2. What if they do not proceed wisely and piously is their priviledge lost must it be taken from them and then it would be no injury to obtrude an Officer on them It is an Officers priviledge to rule the Church but what if he do it not wisely and piously is the privilege then lost it is a Master of a Families priviledge to rule his own house but what if he do it not wisely and piously must it now be taken from him or rather must he not be directed and exhorted to do it rightly and the priviledge remain stil with him so of the people we have Junius of our minde herein (a) Junius Eccles p. 1963 Answer But let us view your Scriptures Seeing that you agree with us in the substance of the Position Reply and yet immediatly bring all the Scriptures brought by us to strengthen the same into question and none of them will passe for currant with you it had been convenient that you should have produced the Scriptures which do sway you unto the asserting of the same thing that it might have appeared to the world that you have found out some better bottome to set such a tenet on then we have produced For we conceive that if the Scriptures you oppugn are not pertinent to prove the Position there will be none found in all the new Testament but they will be more liable to exception then these and it is to be noted that all our modern Writers that we know of that grant any liberty to the people of choosing their own Officers they do it upon the evidence of these Scriptures which are excepted against in so much that we know not what should be the reason why you grant the thing alledged and bring no proofes of your own to confirm it and yet allow not of ours which we bring except you be resolved to contradict all that comes from us But what are your exceptions let us prove what weight is in them you say The Assembly Answer Acts 1. it is likely was not a body politick but occasionall only no part of Church-government being as yet set on foot here were not all but some of the sounder members of the Jewish Church and they had no commission to separate from the Jewes before Acts 2.40 the Company was not without Elders all the Churches and Elder at that time in the world were present if there had been any more Elders they must have conveened upon that occasion the choice was limited by the Apostle Peter First to the persons present Secondly to those that accompanied the Apostles all the time c. and was determined by God whose it was to choose an Apostle by his directing of the lot The meaning is Reply they were not a Christian Church but some of the sounder members of the Jewish Church and not yet separated from the Jewish Church and then 1. There is a contradiction unto some other of the exceptions which follow If they were no Christian Church how were the Apostles Elders of it and how was it an Oecumenicall councell all the Churches and Elders in the world being at it 2. Is there not some mistake in point of truth For those persons who were commanded to separate Acts

are said to be come to one mount Sion If so then the Congregations of the Christian Gentiles may well be another mount Sion And if the Nationall church of the Jewes with the assemblies thereof were mount Sion why may not every Nationall-church of Christians with the assemblies thereof we speak now in your language be Sion also and then there being many Nationall churches as you say there are many Sions And what greater absurdity is it to say there are an hundred or a thousand Sions then to say there are an hundred or a thousand Churches Seeing Sion and Church are all one Now you know there were many visible churches in Judea Galatia Macedonia Asia and many other places and if then so many how many more now therefore many Sions and because those many churches then and these now we believe to have been and still to be Congregationall therefore every Congregationall Church we hold to be Sion But you ask an odde strange needlesse to say no worse of it question with a great deal of vehemency Answer viz. Have you not found God present in our Assemblies Have you not by faith closed with the promises in the use of the Ordinances among us Speak out I know you dare not belie your selves us and God himself c. Reply Your question is bottomed upon a mistake when we say that God hath promised to be present in Sion you give this glosse upon it that we deny all your Assemblies to be Sion and will not grant Gods presence at all to be with you and that we appropriate Sion and Gods presence to our selves which is a great injury to us You also put this sense upon our words that God is so present in Sion that he is present no where else and so not present with holy men and women which are out of Church-fellowship nor present with members of many churches meeting together which either is a foul mistake or a slander For we think God to be present with his people when they meet in his feare whether they be Church-members or not Church-members whether they be of one or many churches whether they be in our assemblies or yours provided that his Ordinances be carried according to his minde yea though there should be some error yet he might give his presence (a) Rev. 2.1 with Rev. 2.14.20 Much rather do we think God will be present with persons whom he sets on work to exalt him in the execution of some office as he did the Apostles and now doth ordinary Elders Neverthelesse we conceive God to be most present with his people gathered into a body and compacted together in an instituted Church which we hold to be Congregationall and the reason is because the more any people do fall into the order of the Gospel and come into the way of Christ which he hath appointed for Saints to walk in the more Christ is ingaged to be present with them Now to joyn to some instituted Church of Christ is that way and order which Christ hath directed to therefore with them in such a way as so united and joyned Christ will more especially be present for he vouchsafeth a speciall presence amongst such Churches Rev. 2.1 he styles himself one that walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks he walks in other places and people but he would intimate thus much that his especiall delightsome walk is among them and the more golden the candlesticks are the more pure they be the more delight he takes to walke in the midst of them But Matth. 18. you say is mis-interpeted Your words are these Answer Christ in Matth. 18. promiseth his presence to those that are not a Church for two or three will not make a Church they vers 17 were to give the second admonition the Church the third There is a figure in the number Reply there is a certain number put for an uncertain two or three are put for a few the paucity that may be in a Church shall be no obstacle of Christs presence Pareus upon this Text hath these words It is an argument that the judgement of the Church shall be ratified because Christ himself will be present in the Church as supreme Judge to ratifie it it is also a generall promise of the presence of the grace of Christ in his Church be it great or small Now surely we shall lesse doubt our exposition having so learned a Commentator so well approved of to stand by us in the same POSITION XVII So long as a Believer doth not joyn himself to some particular Congregation he is without in the Apostles sense 1 Cor. 5.12 Those without Answer of whom the Apostle speaketh were unbelievers Pagans and Heathen without Christ as well as without the visible Church Let it be granted that those whom the Apostle speaks of were both without Christ Reply and without the visible Church yet it may be securely affirmed that the Apostle speaks of them under the notion of such as were without the visible church and not of those that were without Christ 1. Singuli de suâ familia judicant non immittunt consuram in alienam samiliam Ergo in Ecclesia similis servetur ratio ut singulae desuit membris judicent Aretius in 1 Cor. 5. Because those without whom the Apostle had not to do to judge stand in opposition to those within vers 12. the latter part whom the Church of Corinth had to do to judge and consequently if this exposition of yours be true the judgement of the Church of Corinth extended as far as the ultima Thule the lands end of Christianity and only ceased when it came to the consines of Paganisme and consequently any one Church hath power to judge any one Believer in all the world because say you he is not without in the Apostles sense that is to say he is not a Pagan Heathen or unbeliever 2. Suppose the Apostle had known a member of the Church of Corinth what ever he appeared outwardly in the frame of his conversation to be indeed without Christ and in a state of enmity with God if this man had committed a grosse sin might not the Apostle have judged such a one to be excommunicated We suppose you will say he might and if so we demand why should a Church-unbeliever be subject to the Apostles judgement and an Heathenish unbeliever be exempted from the Apostles judgement If Church-membership did not make the one obnoxious to that spirituall judgement more then the other For in the notion of unbelievers and without Christ they both agree and therefore if a Heathen were exempted from judgement because without Christ and not for this reason because without the visible Church why should not a Church-unbeliever be exempted as well as a Heathen 2. If we mistake not a Believer not joyned to any particular congregation is without in reference to Church-judgement and we suppose by vertue of this Text in your Presbyterian

the Apostle writes not to Diotrephes or the Elders alone but to the whole Church also because Quod omnes tangit ab omnibus tractari debet that which concerns all must be handled by all But Diotrephes riseth up and he alone commands forbids excommunicates and what can be more destructive of the power of the Presbyterie and liberty of the people then such a course and yet say you or else you say nothing to the purpose he is not blamed for it If Diotrephes were not to blame being but a particular Elder to take upon him the power of the whole Eldership yea and the whole Church why may not a particular brother take upon him the power to elect an Officer which belonge to the fraternity or one Elder to ordain an Officer which pertains to the whole Presbyterie Or in your Classick Way why may not a particular Elder a member of the Classis exercise the jurisdiction of the whole Classis why may not a Classis exercise the power of a Provinciall Synod that of a Nationall and the Nationall of the Oecumenicall Synod and yet be blamelesse the reason is the same proportion that an Elder hath to the whole Eldership the same or far greater have a brother to the whole fraternity an Elder to the Classick a Classick to the Provinciall a Provinciall to the Nationall and that to the Oecumenicall Synod But peradventure it was not unwittingly done by you to put in the word simply for a retreat in case you should be hotly charged for pleading the cause of Prelacie under the notion of Presbyterie and so you will say you affirm not that John doth not blame Diotrephes for having preeminence but he doth not simply blame him for having preeminence Now if this be your meaning and that you indeed grant that Diotrephes was blamed for striving for preeminence why do you blame the Elders of New-England for saying that the Elders are not i. ought not to be so many Bishops striving for preeminence as Diotrephes did But if it be said that the force that is offered to the Text lies not in this that the Elders of New-England say that if Diotrephes strive for preeminence verely they abhor such striving for these are their words but in this that it is said The Elders are not so many Bishops striving for preeminence as Diotrephes did which peradventure may have an oblique insinuation that Classick Presbyters are so many Bishops striving for preeminence and it may be said the text affords no such conclusion We answer those words so many Bishops are no expression of the Elders of New-England neither is the Text applied by them to prove that Classick Presbyters are so many Bishops striving for preeminence I but M. D. saith a Classick Presbyterie sets up many Bishops in stead of one Peccat Aemilius plectitur Rutilius M. D. offends if it be an offence and the Elders of New-England are beaten Or suppose that reverend learned and holy man M. D. have let fall words which reflect with some blemish upon the Presbyterie from the sense of what himself had suffered yet your professed businesse is not to vindicate Presbyterie but the Text. Now M. D. we conceive for we have not his book doth not urge 3 John vers 9 10. to prove that the Classicall Presbyterie sets up many Bishops in stead of one and therefore what thing soever he hath said which offends in reference to the Presbyterie yet he is not guilty of wrong-doing in reference to the Text. I will not tell you who said All the Church is holy Answer ye take too much upon you c. Our consciences are unto us a thousand witnesses Reply that we have and by the assistance of grace hope ever to carry it with all gentlenesse and meeknesse toward our godly Brethren that are guided by a different light in point of Government from us and therefore it is lesse grievous to us to be parallel'd with Corah Dathan and Abiram those grand incendiaries of the Congregation of Israel yet it is not unworthy your serious consideration whether it might not be with good cause said to you as sometimes Christ said to one of the twelve when he asked Master is it I and he answered Thou hast said POSITION XIX The Power of Government is expressly given to the Church where we are bidden Heare the Church which is a particular Congregation Matth. 18. Brother we could wish you had signified the Author by whom Reply and the place where this wrong at least as you suppose is done to the Text as you have done in other Sections who those be that presume that Christ did no more respect the Jewish then they do the Church of England As your margent doth not inform us so in searching those few books we have we cannot finde among all the Congregationall men therefore we take it as an unjust aspersion thrown upon them The Church in the first and primary intent of these words Answer was a Church then in being which did abominate the Gentiles for Heathens and Gentiles were all one viz. the Jewish church which was not aparticular Congregation but a Nationall-church having graduall judicatories and appeales of which the Apostles were at that time and Christ lived and died an actuall member c. Whilest you your self say Reply that the Church in the primarie intent of these words was a Nationall church then in being do you not imply that these words tell the Church have reference to a Church or churches that were not yet in being which should afterward be invested with power of judging and therefore giving it for granted that Christ saying Tell the Church sends them to the Jewish Synagogues or Sanhedrin whilest their authority did continue and so Peter needs not stay three yeeres before he can acquaint the Church with his offence yet still the Congregationall church may be competitresse with Classicall Provinciall Nationall and Oecumenicall churches for the power of judging and if she should come off victricious then the guilt of wresting this place for you urge it to prove the power of your judging church would rest among your selves and the Congregationall men and their Way be guiltlesse Now for our parts we cannot see the title of Congregationall churches any way invalidated by what hath been hitherto said by your self or others 2. Whilest you say that the Church in the first and primarie c. I suppose your inference must be this Ergo those words Matth. 18. Tell the Church cannot be rightly applied to a Congregationall Church which hath no such graduall judicatories and appeals but Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Churches for amongst these are found such graduall judicatories and appeals The sinew and strength of this reason is this It is necessary that the judging Church in the times of the Gospel should answer in the manner of its judicature the judging Church in the time of the Law and ergo if that Church which was to judge then had graduall

the old Testament for patterns for it if you can but produce one instance from the new Testament that ever Elders of one Church ordained Officers in another or any good reason for it grounded thence the controversie about ordination shall be ended betwixt us and the pattern of Numb 8. shall be waved You tell us that it is a pillar of Popery to proportion the Church now Answer to the outward policy of Israel It is notoriously known Reply that the foundation of the Antichristian Hierarchy is laid in the proportion which some would have betwixt the Jewish policy and the policie of the Christian Church yet this debarres not but that use may be made of the old Testament where the new is silent Do not you rest upon the new Testament for the change of the Seal of the Covenant and conclude Baptisme is to be imbraced in stead of Circumcision because the new is cleer in that matter and yet run to the old to finde out the latitude and extent in the application of it to the subject and conclude Infants must be baptized not because the new expressly saith so but because you finde it in the old The Jewes children were circumcised therefore Christians children must be baptized You tell us that Christs faithfulnesse above Moses Answer consists in as full determination of Gods worship in the new Testament and that we are as strictly tied to the Gospel-pattern as the Jewes were to the old Testament Why then should we in ordination of Officers be guided by the old Testament and not by the new It is our Argument against those that hold that there is no platform of discipline laid down in the new Testament Reply but that any is lawfull that the State will authorize but it was never asserted by us that all things without limitation are directly determined for we have alwayes restrained it to substantialls neither have we ever said that we have had a perfect knowledge of all things that are revealed And why should we follow the ordination of Levites rather then of Priests for a pattern for the ordination of Elders Answer except to gratifie you You cannot gratifie us by following the one or the other Reply because ye cannot advantage your selves whether of them soever ye betake your selves unto For 1. If the people laid their hands upon the Levites there were no hands at all laid upon the Priests they were anointed and consecrated and holy vestments put upon them but ordained by the imposition of hands they were not but you would not have ordination of Elders turn'd into a consecration after the manner of the Priests 2. What was done to the Priests was not performed by any Ecclesiasticall person but by Moses the chief Magistrate of the people but you are not so weary of ordination as to transferre it from the Presbyterie to the Magistracie 3. The Elders of the new Testament are rather the successors of the Levites then of the Priests because there is no Hierarchie amongst them and therefore the pattern of their ordination is rather to be followed then the ordination of the Priests and yet not to gratifie us Consult better the next time with Scripture before you proceed to such triumphing POSITION XI When the Apostles were sent out by Christ The words of the Answer to 32. q. p. 71. there was no mention of Ordination in that Commission of theirs but only of teaching and baptizing Mark 16.15 Matth. 18.19 20. If Ordination of Ministers had been such a speciall work there would be like have been some mention of it in their Commission Neither is there mention of the celebration of the Eucharist Answer The Eucharist is an ordinance Reply sealing the same Covenant that Baptisme sealeth therefore the Apostles having Commission for the one could not want it for the other though it be not mentioned Preaching and Baptizing were first to be done to the Nations Answer therefore they are there mentioned That is not the sole reason Reply but because they were principall works and in reference to the subject persons about which they were exercised more Apostolicall for they might preach and baptize in all the world whereas ordinary Officers in an ordinary way may not do such works in all the world but only in the Church We find the Apostles did practise ordination Answer and yet we suppose they went not beyond their Commission Acts 6. c. 13. 14. and a Commission to Elders we reade 1 Tim. 5. The Position saith not Reply that ordination was not within their Commission but saith That there is no mention thereof when they first received their Commission and the page out of which the Position is exerted makes mention of some other works within their Commission not mentioned viz. Prayer and Acts 6.4 is quoted for it But indeed Brother you are injurious to the Authors of those words of the Answer to 32. q. p. 71. for Ordination is not denied to be within the Commission of the Apostles but those Reverend men do grapple with Hierarchicall persons in that place and we see no reason why you should take offence thereat if you would not have your self judged to be one of them their words are these Some indeed have so highly advanced ordination that they have preferred it above preaching ministring of Sacraments Prayer making it and the power of excommunication the two incommunicable prerogatieves of a Bishop above an ordinary Minister who are these sons Prelaticall mens against them the Authors of the Position fight And first would beat them with the words of the Apostles first Commission which was to preach and to baptize and afterwards they do shew that preaching was the great work that they were to attend upon and do alledge 1 Cor. 1.17 for it and next after preaching they mention prayer and alledge Acts 6.4 and then they speak of the Sacraments not of Baptisme alone but of the Lords Supper So that Brother you had no reason to take such offence because of the Eucharist for they gave it its due place in the Apostles Commission after this they render another reason why preaching was a greater work then ordaining because Paul went about the work of preaching and left Titus an inferiour Officer to himself to the work of ordaining Indeed afterwards when those Reverend men had proved that ordination was not superiour to Preaching Baptisme c. they then indevour to shew that it is not equall to those works so as that none but those which may perform those works may ordain and they bring this Argument Ordination being nothing else but the accomplishment of Election it may be performed by the people of God who yet have no office even as Election may upon whom it depends and they bring the testimonies of many Protestant Writers among the rest D. Whitakers Answer to Bellarmine If Bellarmine grant the calling of those Bishops to be lawfull there is lesse cause why we should doubt of Ordination For those who

these Churches by an every Sabbaths contribution But it will be said still that this respecteth the poor Saints at Jerusalem only But every Church hath or may have poor Saints of her own which way must they be relieved must not they be provided for the same way as the poor Saints of other Churches What reason can be shewed that the poor of other Churches must be provided for by one way or rule and the poor of their own Church by another way or rule or if there be any difference do not a Churches own poor rather require a weekly contribution for their reliefe then the poor abroad of other Churches therefore we said at the beginning that we conceived the Apostle to have a further meaning then the occasion did import Besides seeing there are Lords Dayes contributions throughout the yeer in all the Belgick churches for the poor upon what Scriptures do they bottome them if not upon this there is par ratio like reason without all doubt that look how the Apostle would have reliefe come in to the Saints of Jerusalem so he would have it come in to the Saints of every Church that wants it and that is by raising a stock in the Church for all good uses by first dayes contributions But wherein doth this Stock or Treasury of the Church respect Ministers The stock raised by selling of estates and laying them down at the Apostles feet respecteth not the Saints alone but the very Apostles why then should not the stock raised by an every Sabbaths contribution respect Ministers If we will take Chemnitius his opinion whose harmony upon the Gospel is not a litle set by (a) Chem. har p. 182 period hist de anno Christ 12. he tells us the Doctors in Christs time that preached were maintained by contribution he saith the treasury into which Christ beheld many rich ones casting in much and the poor widow all her substance was to maintain the Doctors he also joynes the poor with the Doctors and saith that the Treasury was for both uses see John 8.20 and compare it with Mark 12.41 Having given an account of our tenent and grounds whereupon built and our conceptions upon 1 Cor. 16.1 2. we need not frame any other Reply unto your Answer Brother for the intelligent Reader will discern what little truth in some things and little substance in other things there is in what you have presented in that matter only because you charge us with unrighteousnesse and partiality in point of our not maintaining our Ruling Elders we shall clear our selves in a few words 1. We conceive all Officers are to have some maintenance the labourer is worthy of his hire provided that he either require it or the Church be able to give it 2. We conceive that there is a difference in the works of Officers some are greater taking up the whole time and strength of the Officers double work being put upon them ruling and labouring in the Word and Doctrine so there should be difference in the maintenance of Officers some ought to have more then others 3. When the Church is not able to maintain her teaching Officers with an honourable maintenance then if the ruling Officers and the Deacons will remit what ever reward from the Church their work calls for 't is no unrighteousnesse nor partiality in the Church to maintain the teaching Officers and not the rest because their works do not so require the whole man but that they may have other Callings to help themselves by which means they may spare the Church in her poverty in point of maintenance 4. Your self may do well to consider whether the ruling Elders and the Deacons be maintained in the Presbyterian Churches and if it be an error not to do it it is good to pull out that beam out of your own eye and then you may see the better to take it out of your brothers eye POSITION XIV The great Mountain burning with fire cast into the Sea upon the sounding of the second Trumpet Rev. 8.8 9. is applied by some good Writers to those times in which Constantine brought settled endowments into the Church If it be so applyed by some good Writers Answer who possibly bad in their eyes the Lordly and almost regall riches and pomp of Prelates it is by as many and as good writers applyed otherwise Our brethren speak modestly and moderately Reply they tell us it is applied so by some good Writers It is not therefore their own novell exposition they present it as probable they force the interpretation upon no man But what are your exceptions against it For my part Answer as I sinde that Constantines donation the foundation of this exposition is but a fiction accounted by Gratian himself to be but palea and what is the chaffe to the wheat So I finde in the Prophecies that Kings and States are called Mountains Zach. 4.7 Casting of Mountains into the Sea implyeth great commotions Psal 46.2 Their burning with sire signifieth their opposition and fiercenesse whereby they become destroying Mountains Jer. 51.25 1. Reply We are not at a little want of books and therefore are not able to make an exact search either after the truth or falshood of this matter But let Constantines donation of the Popes patrimony be a Fiction and Palea yet we suppose it may be cleerly evidenced from credible Authors that Constantine brought in great riches and pomp setled endowments to the Clergie of the Church and that is all that is affirmed in the Position 2. If Kings and States be called Mountains so is prosperity in riches and honours Psal 30. Thou hast made my Mountain so strong that is my condition so prosperous And Sea in Scripture is the Church sometimes or the Religion of the Church Rev. 13.1 15.2 therefore casting of a Mountain into the sea may be bringing prosperity and casting riches and honours upon the Church and though Mountains should be taken in your sense for Kings when almost regall riches and honours were cast upon Prelates of the Church may it not be said a mountain was cast into the Sea And may it not well be said to be a burning Mountain when the ambition of Prelates after Church indowments and honours almost set the Christian world on fire and the hot contestations of Ecclesiasticall persons for Church-livings do testifie that if prosperity in wealth and honour be a mountain then it was a burning mountain and had such effects following it as the Prophecies in the Revelations speak of But you go on and say I finde not that it is unlawfull either for a yeer as in New-England Answer (u) 〈◊〉 to ● R. p. 19. Reply or for certain yeers or for term of life much lesse do I finde that it is lawfull for one and not for a yeer a quarter or two or three or four yeers Though T. W. speak of maintenance from yeer to yeer yet it is not to be understood that

universall for sometimes God raised up extraordinarily from amongst the people Thus Amos was a Heardsman and yet chosen to be a Prophet And this hath been done in an ordinary way in the Churches that men that have made great proof in holinesse and knowledge have been called to publike Office Spyridion a Shepheard was called to be Bishop of Trimithous Socrates Eccl. Hist l. 1. c. 8. p. 232. a City of Cyprus Ambrose a Consul being yet but a Catechumenist came into the Church Assembly at Millain and spake much and very powerfully by way of exhortation to the dissenting Brethren and was by an unanimous vote chosen for their Bishop at that instant before he was Baptized Socrat. Eccles Hist l 4. c. 24 25. p. 335. So when God was pleased to make known his Will by immediate revelation he was pleased many times to make use of the sons of the Prophets The sons of the Prophets that were at Bethel 1 King 2.3 5. and Jericho could tell Elisha that his Master should be taken from him yet sometimes God was pleased to reveale his will to those that were not sons of the Prophets Thus though none were to be designed by the Church as one of these two or three that must prophesie in a Church-meeting but Prophets yet if any thing were revealed to him that sate by he had the liberty to expresse it so that it is well observed on the one hand by W. Musculus upon the place that the Apostle saith not Duo vel tres prophetent sed Prophetae duo vel tres prophetent that is he doth not say Let two or three prophesie but let two or three Prophets prophesie So on the other hand upon these words If any thing be revealed to him that sits by let the first hold his peace he hath these words Non dicit significet loquenti ut ille hoc Ecclesiae proponat sed dicit surgat ipse loquatur neque dicit servet sibiipsi sed prior taceat ne videlicet illicitum putetur ei loqui in Ecclesia qui non sit in ordine Prophetarum sed de numero sedentium auditorum i.e. He saith not Let him signifie it to him that is speaking that he may prophesie the thing to the Church but he saith Let himself also arise and let him speak neither saith he let him keep it to himself but let the first hold his peace viz. lest it should be thought unlawfull for him to speak in the Church who is not in the order of the Prophets but in the number of those that sit by Aretius in 1 Cor. 14.26 and are auditors In like manner Aretius Inde fieri potest ut quos Ecclesia deputavit ad munus interpretandi non habent revelationem loci propositi sed alius in turba sedens Hence it may come to passe that those whom the Church hath deputed to the Office of interpreting may not have the revelation of the place propounded but some other fitting among the multitude 4. That now that extraordinary revelations are ceased yet it may be lawfull for some members of the Church which are not Officers to preach or prophesie publikely and 1. To those that are not in Church-fellowship 2. To those that are in Church-fellowship and want Officers 3. To those that are in Church-fellowship and have all Officers compleat For the first First it may be lawfull for a Church having persons indowed with parts fit for the work to send them forth as Messengers to preach to Heathens for their conversion Reas 1. By the same reason that the Church of Antioch sent forth Paul and Barnabas to preach in Salamis Paphes Pergo Antiochia c. for the conversion both of Jewes and Gentiles by the same reason a true Church may send forth men of excellent parts to preach for the conversion of Heathens For Paul and Barnabas did not now go forth by vertue of their Apostolicall Commission by which they were inabled to preach to all Nations for so they should have had no need to have been separated by fasting prayer and imposition of the hands of the Eldership for that Commission they had long before this separation but they went as Messengers sent out of God by the Ministery of the Church of Antioch and when they returned they render an account to the Church of their service in the work to which they were recommended by the Church Acts 14.27 Now if Paul and Barnabas who without the recommendation of the Church of Antioch might have preached in all these places were sent forth by the Church what doth this but demonstrate unto us a power in the Churches to send forth Messengers though they be neither Apostles Pasters nor Teachers who shall preach as gifted men sent forth by the Church for that purpose For if Paul and Barnabas who were Apostles did preach as Messengers sent of God by the Ministery and recommendation of the Church to such a work by the same reason may persons gifted preach by vertue of such a recommendation Reas 2. God hath left a power to the Church to propagate the Gospel by using means for the conversion of those that are unconverted Now because all unconverted persons cannot come to heare in the Church-assemblies therefore Christ hath left power to the Churches to send out Messengers for this purpose to preach the Gospel to them otherwise there were no means left by Christ to be used by the Church for the conversion of those that lie in a state of Heathenisme and cannot or will not be at the charge and pains of repairing to Church-assemblies If it be said Let the Church send forth some of her teaching Officers Objection The work of the Officers is properly to attend the flock Answer and therefore though a Church in the want of other fit persons may send out one of her officers for a time yet if she have those that are not in office that are indowed with eminent abilities for the work they are never the lesse fit because not in Office For if they were Officers they should act amongst Heathens not as Officers to such a Congregation but as men sent out by such a Church in the name of Jesus Christ 2. Gifted persons not in the Ministery may preach to Churches wanting Officers That they may preach by way of probation in reference to a Call you your self will grant and there is the same reason in case the teaching Officers should die Suppose an eminent gifted member that hath been bred at School and Vniversity for many yeers should be desired by the Congregation to exercise his gifts amongst them till God would inable them to choose another Pastor and Teacher this gifted person though not in the Ministery nor intending it might exercise his gift amongst them upon this ground which shall appear in the confirmation of the third thing which is yet of a higher nature 3. Gifted persons not in the Ministery may preach in a