Selected quad for the lemma: power_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
power_n	city_n	government_n	representative_a	751	4	16.1177	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A38090	Antapologia, or, A full answer to the Apologeticall narration of Mr. Goodwin, Mr. Nye, Mr. Sympson, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Bridge, members of the Assembly of Divines wherein is handled many of the controversies of these times, viz. ... : humbly also submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament / by Thomas Edwards ...	Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647.	1644 (1644)	Wing E223; ESTC R1672	272,405	322

in Holland and having spoken with many of your way yea with some of you if I mistake not and writing so lately upon these points upon the occasion of the newnesse of the controversie should so mistake or that the two reverend and learned Divines of Scotland setting forth bookes chiefely upon the occasion of your dissents the first Divine having been in England so long in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting and having had discourse with some of you upon the points and the later Mr Rutherford being so able a man and so well versed in the controversie should conspire to prepossesse the peoples minds against what are supposed your Tenets But if all these should have mistaken that yet one of your owne Divines who writ more lately with much learning and ingenuity as your selves confesse and your Licenser too should fasten upon you supposed Tenets seemes strange But the best is we have your selves confessing in the 15. page of your Apologie that these Divines of Holland Scotland and England have written against your Tenets and government directly setly and with strength and how could Mr Herles booke against Independency be written with much ingenuity if he had prepossessed the peoples minds against what are supposed your Tenets but are not so indeed And however though neither my selfe nor my book against Independent governement are not in the number of the men and books of much worth and learning written with moderation and strength yet it is probable those Reasons against Independent governement and Toleration troubles you as much as any other booke written and may be more aimed at by you in this passage then other books and therefore to free my selfe I have not ass●…rted any thing in that book as your Tenet but what I have good reason to beleeve you have held and I can produce it either as your known practise or out of some Manuscripts that goe under some of your names or from your own mouthes or some intimate familiars of yours so that unlesse according to your second great principle in the 10th page you have altered and retracted within these few yeares what six or seven yeares ago you held the peoples minds have not been propossest by me with what are your supposed Tenets but with your reall Tenets I desire you in your Reply to give any instances to the contrary And that neither I nor others may not write against your supposed Tenets any longer I doe beleech you for the glory of God the peace of the Church to set downe positively and plainely all your Tenets wherein you differ from the reformed Churches and the Reformation likely to be setled and that with the grounds of them or without the grounds if your other occasions will not allow you time and I do promise you by the help of God in a short convenient time without any thing personall or matter of fact to give you a direct answer from Scripture and reasons grounded thereupon whereby we may understand one another the better and bring this sad controversie between bretheren to an end the sooner 5. We who have written any thing against your way have not so much prepossessed the peoples minds against your Tenets as laboured to dispossesse them we have all played the after-game too much you the fore-game you and your party have prepossessed the peoples minds with your principles and have fil'd the City and Kingdome with your Tenets and you have been on the prepossessing hand filling many Parliament mens ear●…s and the peoples minds against Presbyteriall government and instilling into them things but supposed against that government as not giving enough to the power of the civill Magistrate It would grieve an ingenious and conscientious man to see where ever one comes how many good people of the Kingdome are prepossessed by being prejudiced against Presbyteriall government that it will be worse then the Hierarchy and more tiranicall to the consciences and liberties of the people with such like There was therefore and is much need to cast out these Devils and to unpossesse the people possessed and by preaching conference and writing to preserve such who are not yet possest and to prepossesse them with truth because such is the nature of your errours that hither to few who take hold of them ever returne like Goodwin sands that if a ship once strike upon them there is no fetching her off or as poison which is hardly expelled if once it be diffused through the body 3. For the grounds and reasons of your pretended deepe silence and forbearance of venting your opinions to the multitude I grant they are well summed up by you and I wish they had wrought as well with you to a deepe silence and forbearance but whatever you say of the conscience and consideration of all these and the weight of each to have had such a power with you hitherto the contrary hath been prooved and I am ready yet further to make it good and will upon your Reply to this Answer say a great deale more But now I must come to examine each of your grounds apart which you say wrought upon you not to attempt in the least to make a party or to act for your selves or way 1. But we knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell and that the beginning of strife would have beene as the breaking in of waters and the sad and conscientious apprehension of the danger of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome that were desirous of Reformation and of making severall interests among them when there was an absolute necessity of their neerest union and conjunction c. I answer It is spoken like an Oracle and might indeed have wrought upon you to a burying of your opinions to a totall forbearance of them for a time and to have spent your time in a conjuring all the Ministers and people of your way not to have spoken a word not to have appeared in the least for those points till the Reformation intended had been effected but brethren was it practised by you as well as it is here spoken I beseech you let your consciences answer and in coole blood laying aside all particular interests passion prejudice consider whether it be not by your meanes or by some of you more especially who writ this that the godly Protestant party of this Kingdome desirous of a reformation is rent and divided and have severall interests mong them in a time when there was an absolute necessity of their necrest union and conjunction and all little enough to eff●…ct that Reformation intended Have not some of your Sermons have not the practises of some of you in assembling in private houses and in the gathering of many to your Churches have not your discourses and conferences with some Ministers and well affect●…d people upon your points with many other things that I could name been a great cause of rending and dividing the

therefore where any one rep●…nts the Church receives him so that in substituting the Magistrates power in defect of excommunication and giving a great deale more civill power for want of spirituall to make it as availeable for those spirituall ends of the Church is to leave the proper remedies and meanes and to take up others and I would desire you to answer me whether the proper remedies and meanes appointed for such ends and uses or the improper remedies nay remedies appointed and intended mainly for other ends be most effectuall and powerfull to accomplish those ends as also whether a part of a proper remedy being assisted and backt with a great proportion of a remedy of another nature and kind can be as effectuall as the whole remedy and meanes as for instance whether a little grace assisted by civility and fairenesse of nature will doe as much to overcome lusts and destroy the flesh as the highest degrees of grace that Saints may attaine unto and whether a little spirituall knowledge seconded with a great deale of common and outward knowledge is as availeable for a Christian conversation as great measures of spirituall knowledge though a man have but a little knowledge in Philosophy Physick Law c. But more particularly to let you see that your recourse unto the Magistrate and the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion is not comparable to that of excommunication and Presbyteriall government I shall commend to your consideration these eight following particulars First There may be many sins and errors which the Christian Magistrate meddles not with are not matters of his cognisance if you would have recourse to him or if the sentence of non-communion be pronounced against a Church because of impenitencie in them he hath nothing to doe to assist and back it there are no laws for such things which yet being spirituall evills and prejudiciall to the souls of men should be dealt with to recover men out of them Learned Zanchius in his differences that he gives between the censure of excommunication and the Magistrates censure observes this for a speciall one There are many wickednesses against which the Magistrate truly Christian doth not use to proceed neither is bound by his Laws as for instance private fallings out hatreds c as also many evill manners both domesticall and publike which doe not disturbe the publike peace or the publike good but the Church ought not to bare these but to correct them according to Christs institution Now what will you doe in this case here your recourse of submission to the Magistrate with the Magistrates backing non-communion faile you and conduce nothing at all Secondly In case the Magistrates be of those Churches and chiefe in those sins and miscarriages for which non-communion is denounced against those Churches as may easily fall out how will you have the sentence of non-communion now backed and assisted both those Churches and the Magistrates members of them shall have nothing to back non-communion to make it equivalent to excommunication nay I aske of you who bring in more of the Magistrates power to supply the want of excommunication where the particular Church will not and the Classes may not what shall be done with the Magistrates offending what meanes hath God left for the recovery of them you cannot imagine they will make use of their power against themselves now if they may not have spirituall remedies and censure as of excommunication this principle of the Magistrates power falls short here whereas in Presbyteriall government ther 's a remedie and redresse for all and certainly Gods ways of governing his Church provides for all whereas yours falls short 3. What if upon the sentence of non-communion denounced against a Church or Churches the Magistrate judge otherwise and hold the sentence of non-communion unjust and will not assist it which may ordinarily fall out what effectuall meanes hath the offending Church of being reduced now by vertue of the Magistrates power and what must be done in this case May the Magistrate revoke that sentence of the Church or Churches offended and declare it null and cause the Churches who passed the sentence to recall it and to continue their communion and suppose those Churches will not revoke it but stand to their act what shall be done in this case who must judge now between these Churches and the Magistrate may the Magistrate now by his power which you give him in Ecclesiasticals instead of backing the sentence of non-communion against a Church miscarrying as the Church supposed now turne his power against the Church for denouncing the sentence of non-communion uojustly as the Magistrate judgeth and not only declare it void but punish this Church or Churches for denouncing such a sentence of non-communion and declaring and protesting to all other Churches that they may doe the like and what if all the Churches protested to will continue to renounce communion with the Church censured with the sentence of non-communion notwithstanding the Magistrates refusing to assist that sentence nay though he declare it void or what if upon the Magistrates declaration some of the Churches give the righ-hand of fellowship againe but others will not what must the Magistrate or the Churches doe in these cases and the like consider well of it whether this effectuall way of yours the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion instead of a powerfull meanes to relieve injured persons or reduce Churches will not prove a meanes of great differences and divisions as well between the Churches and the Magistrate as between the Churches themselves 4. Must the Magistrate assist and back the sentence of non-communion against the Church or Churches offending and persisting therein upon the comming of it to him and so punish it according to the nature of the crime as he judges meet without first hearing what the Church can say for it selfe or must he first heare them both and in case more Churches mutually renounce communion with one another and protest against each other with other particulars instanced in about the remedie of non-communion under the fourth generall head what shall he doe in these cases must he heare all 5. What Magistrate or Magistrates doe you meane to whom in Ecclesiasticall causes you will have recourse unto and that must assist and back the sentence of non-communion Doe you meane the supreame and chiefe Magistrate the highest powers only or all inferiour Magistrates in their severall stations and divisions where these things fall out as Majors of Cities and Townes Justices of Peace and such Magistrates or doe you meane the Christian Protestant Magistrate or Magistrates though Heathens Popish Arrians or doe you meane by the Magistrates power that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature erected in every division of the Counties to heare the differences that fall out between Churches offended one with another c. or what doe you meane If you understand the supreame Magistrate

are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceablene●… but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer no●… tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erro●…eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vinde●… utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see

nostris qui norant linguam Eelgicam frequentant Sacrā coenam earum membris siqua forte nostro coetui intersint nobis cognita participamus Robin Apolog. Apolog. Letter to Mr King Mr Tost c. Apolog. Tertul. de Resur carn●… 〈◊〉 3. a Chamier Panstrat Cathol lib. 8. de Canone cap. 3. b Whitak de Script perfect quae 6. cap. 14. In soro non ex jure humano sed ex lege Mosis pronunciandum esse contendit Melch Adam vit Carolost Schlusselburg de Secta Schuvenck●…ld Cameron S●… ver Iudge in controvers c. 11. Chamier Panstrat Cathol de Canone l. 8. c. 1. de persectione Scripturae Stat●… controversiae Sect. 16. Cham. de Canone l. 8. c. 2. Sect. 20. Whitak de Script Perfect contra Hum. Tradit quae 6. c. 10. Whitak de Script perfect quaest 6. c. 6. Status quaestionis proponitur 6 Article of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures for salvation Vide 39 Articles of Relig. of Ch. of Engl. Serm. at publike Fast Novemb 29 1643. pag. 26. a Danaei Comment in 1 Tim. 5. v. 13. v. 17. Cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quadam homines omnia quae Apostolorum temporibus observata suerant sibi putarent imitanda neque locorum neque temporum neque rerum diss●…nilium rationem baberent e●…am ipsi suas Dioconissas retinere praec●…è voluerunt Sed cum posterioribus temporibus c. Et certe ●…is impudentes sunt Catabaptistae qui Pauli facti exempli praetex●… omnes verbi Dei ministros ad manualia o●…era cogendos esse contendunt ut victum comparent b Apostolici inter Anabaptist as cognominati sunt quia Apostolos aemulari in omnibus decreverunt Hi nudam Scripturae literam tenere se jactabant Absque ba●…ulo calceis pera pecunia hinc inde vigabantur juxta Christi verba Ascende●…ant in tecta domorum ex quibus habebant conciones quia Christus dixisset quae in aurem accepist is annunciate in t●…ctis Pedes sibi invicem lavabant cum puer is rep●…erascebant hoc est pueriliter se gerebant uxores liberos domu●… opificia deserebant quia Christus dixisset nisi quis reliquerit do●…um uxorem c. propter me non potest esse meus discipulus Schlu●…leb de Secta Anabaptist Mr Tho Goodwins answer to a letter with a Qu●…re concerning the Church-covenant Confident we are is considence it selfe can make us that there is no commandement given to the Churches for exacting any such covenant of those that are to be admitted into Church-fellowship with them Quere concerning the Church-covenant Apolog. Apolog. 〈◊〉 I. G. Letter to T. G. Apolog. Whitaker d●… Eccles. Apolog. Manuscr Arg. of M. Nye against set-formes of prayer prescribed a M. Williams answer to Mr Cottons letter Queries proposed upon occasion of an Apologeticall N●…ration Robinsoni Apolog cap. 12. de Eccles. Anglic. Apolog. Reform of Ch. government in Scotland cleared pag. 18. Dissert de Gub. Ecclesiae pag. 11. Robins Apol. cap. 1. de Eccles amplitudin●… a Polit. Ecclesiast l. 3. c. 〈◊〉 c. ●…2 b Polit. Eccles. l. 〈◊〉 c. 1. 〈◊〉 Balls friendly tryall of separation * Gersom Bucerus Dissert de Gub. Eccles. p. 11. Nos particularem Eccle siam intelligimus quemlibet credentium c●…tum in unam vocationem divinam Evangelij praedicatio●…e sacrarumque institutionum observatione adunatum ac uni Presbyterio subjunctum sacros vero conventus uno out pluribus locis agit●…ntem Nam Paraeciarum in quibus convenitur numerus accidentaria res est nihil ad Ecclesiae particularis essentiam pertinens M. Bridges letter to M. To●… M. Smith M. Henry King c. The Keyes were given to the whole Church unles we say they were given to Peter only and his successours search the Scriptures and see if you can find any place where any body or particular Church is subiect to one man or officer Reform of Ch. government cleared p. 25. a Robins Justif. of separat b Mr Burroughs on Hosea seventh Lecture p. 174. If we consider the difference between Ecclesiasticall power and civill power we shall see it cleare that there cannot be a ministe●…ll head of the Church c Ames Med. Theol. Iohn 4 10 22. Apolog. * Robi●…s Justif. of separat Robi●…s Catech. A representative Church in a case of faith and conscience without the consent of the represented in the particular decree establisheth the popish doctrine of implicite faith a Voetius select Disput. de quaestione pe●…es quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica Thes 1. Thes. 4 Thes. 5. Ut autē n ovu●… hic agendi modus colorem aliquem haberet tanto facilius mult●…rum politicorum savor aut saltem Tolerantia Remonstranticis novi●…atibus conciaretur editu●… est ab Iohanne Vttenbogardo Ecclesialiste tunc Hag●… cometano tractatus de jure supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis E●…ita fuerunt Grotij piet as ordinum Episcopij disputatio de jure magistratus circa sacra Barlei declamatio seu Philippica quaedam in ministros qui orthodoxam receptam religionem tuebantur c. Praeter quae vulgares vernaculi libelli quorum numerus innumerus consiones Remonstrantium nihil aliud quam authoritatem potestatem magistratuum perstrepebant nescio qua invidia orthodoxos pastores ●…orumque legitimos co●…ventus actiones Ecclesiasticas gravabant Et hac quidem inprimis in dictis duabus provincij●… nam in Geldria aliter canebant aut Mussitabant quod Ill. Curja conatibus ipsorum minimè faveret Idem fere accidebat in Frisia Amstelredami atque alibi ubi magistratus omnia contra Presbyteria pastores non statuebat ex 〈◊〉 aut in favorem Remonstrantium Post habitam synodum Dordracenam libelli ipsorum vernaculi longè alio stilo conscripti sunt quin in ipsa Apologia quam tamen magistratibus probari volebant cap. 25. potestatem hanc non parum limitant ac contrahunt quam tamen tam liberaliter ante hac ad mens●… erant b Vedelius de Episcop Constant. magni pag. 3 4 5 6. Arminiani è contrario in excessu peccant Etenim ante Synodum Dordracenam contendebant sub magistratu orthodoxo Ecclesiam per se nullam babere potestatem spiritualem ministros Ecclesiae officio suo defungi nomine magistratus ita ut magistratus quia ipse per alia negotia concionari c. non possit per ministros doceat qui vices ipsius gerant in docendo quem admndum vicarius Trajani Imperatoris vices gerebat sui Imperatoris Et sic ministros non habere suam potes●…atem à Christo sed à Magistratu qui quidem solus eam potestatem immediatè à Christo acceperit Gubernationem Ecclesiae assignabant soli magistratui ab ea excludentes ministros nisi in quantum essent vicarij instrumenta seu servi magistratus Speciatim electionem ministrorum seu vocationem item dopositionem tribuebant soli magistra●… c.