Selected quad for the lemma: power_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
power_n	city_n	government_n	representative_a	751	4	16.1177	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27361	A iustification of The city remonstrance and its vindication, or, An answer to a book written by Mr. J.P. entituled, The city remonstrance remonstrated wherein the frequent falsifyings of the said Mr. J.P. are discovered, the many charges by him laid upon the remonstrance and its vindicator, disproved, and the parity and agreement of the remonstrance ... with the propositions, declarations, remonstrances, and votes, of both or either House of Parliament manifested / by John Bellamie.	Bellamie, John, d. 1654.; Price, John, Citizen of London. City remonstrance remonstrated.	1646 (1646)	Wing B1814; ESTC R4476	42,384	58

or defective or any thing in the same newly happening where before there was no remedy ordained and have need of amending the same Major and Ald●rmen and their successors with the assent of the Commonalty of the same City may adde and ordaine a remedy meet faithfull and consonant to reason for the common profit of the Citizens of the same City as oft and at such time as to them shall be thought expedient which Charter was confi●med by act of Parliament 43 yeares after in the 7 of Rich. 2 Now if you can produce the like authority granted alone to the House of Commons by the Parliament that they of themselves without the consent of the King and the Lords have power to make lawes for the Kingdome as by this Charter the Lord Major Aldermen and their successors with the assent of the Commons of London haue for the City then you hit the bu●ines a●ight indeed but otherwise I thinke your argument is not true And therefore for after times let me advise you that if you will imitate an argument in the words of it be sure you imitate it also in the proofes of it and let them be as full and cleare for the confirmation of what you affirme for it is not words though never so smooth that proves any thing in matters of fact as this is And truly should I have laid down that argument to prove the power of the Court of Common-councell as unto the making of City laws to bee above the Lord Major and Aldermen and not have proved it de facto by the acts of the Court of Common-councell I should have thought it at least to have been a scandalum Magnatum against the Lord Major and Aldermen and very blame-worthy in my selfe to have done it But perhaps you think the condition of the King and the Lords to bee such as that whatever you speak or publish concerning them tending to the annihilating of their legislative power and authority in Parliament can neither be an offence to them nor a fault in you or if it bee it seemes you regard it not but I hope you will not take it amisse if as I did in that so I desire you in this either to produce a proof d● facto to make good that the House of Commons hath by an Act of that House alone conferred a power upon the King and Lords as King and Lords they had not before which are the very word● of your argument or else in plaine English to tell the Reader● that though you can transcribe the words of my argument which a childe of ten yeares old can doe as well as you yet now upon second thoughts you must needs confesse you come very short in a parallel proofe of it there neither now being nor never was any act of the House of Commons that doth prove that that House alone and by it selfe did ever make a law which did confer a power upon the King and Lords which as King and Lords they had not before and without this proofe I perswade my selfe no man will beleeve that as unto the making of a law the House of Commons is above the King and Lords though Mr. I. P. affirmes it to bee so And this I give not onely as a solution to this your argument but also to the other arguments which follow viz. concerning the power of the House of Commons alone without the King and Lords to repeale what lawes they think meet and to make laws and rules for all the Courts and people in England to bee steered and acted by and whereunto say you the King himselfe is bound by his Oath and therefore ought in duty to cons●ut and likewise to that which you say will follow from my logick viz. that the Kingdome representative is inferiour in its power in reference to the government of the Kingdome then the City representative is in reference to the government of the City and to the other Queries which you ground upon them for they all alike hang upon this string and if in the opinion of the Reader to whose judgement I referre it this be ●ut asunder I am sure they must all then needs fall to the ground and therefore I shall not need to trouble my self any more with them And now Mr. I. P. I have endeavoured with all the candor and tendernesse I could to examine your Book and have not I hope let one word fall from mee that in the least measure doth reflect upon your person for it is the matter of your Book and not any of your personall infirmities for alasse the Lord know● I have work more then enough to meddle with and to master my own or other your supposed errors in matters of Religion that I encounter with And if we cannot yet agree in this present difference and debate my earnest desire is and I trust ●y endeavour shall for ●ver be answerable thereunto that wee may manage the matter with that sweet moderation and temper of Spirit as becommeth Christians for of this I am confident that though through weaknesse or error in judgement perhaps mine not yours we cannot agree together to live in one Church fellowship or communion here upon earth yet we shall for ever mutually enjoy communion and fellowship with God the Father with Christ with the blessed Spirit three Persons in one Essence and with the holy Angels and the glorified Saints for ever in heaven And therefore I beseech you while we yet live here in this vale of teares let us remember and obey that counsell the Apostle gives us Philip 3. 15 16. Let us therefore as many as bee perfect bée thus minded and if in any thing you bee otherwise minded God shall reveale even this unto you neverthelesse whereunto we have already attained let us walke by the same rule let us mind the same thing I shall gladly imbrace and entertaine any truth of God which shall by you bee held forth unto mee with the warrant of his Word and as willingly leave and forsake whatever either in opinion or practice I now hold or doe that shall bee made apparent to be dissonant thereto for I solemnly professe unto you that I labour not for Masteries neither desire I to give the last blow I esteem it no shame to be conquered when Christ proves the Victor nor no losse to bee vanquished when the Truth prevailes for it's verity not victory that shall be my comfort A POSTSCRIPT I Have at this time no more to say either to your selfe or to your Book but in one word to let the Reader know that my desire and endevour to afford you all the faire quarter that possibly I could in this our Conflict about this Subject was such That I did upon Saturday the 8 of this instant August in the presence of Mr. Samuel Clarke Pastor of Bennet Fynck London and of Mr. Iames Story and Mr. Henry Overton two of yours and of my owne acquaintance shew you in Writing this my Justification of the City Remonstrance and its Vindication before ever I tendered it either to be Licensed or Printed and desired you to peruse it and if there was any thing in it either for matter of Fact or otherwise that you could justly except against I would expunge it and it should never see the light And when you would not accept of that offer I then read some passages in the Epistle to you which I told you that in my apprehension they were the things which most nearly concerned your Person this I did to manifest my unwillingnesse to let any thing passe from mee that might bee either prejudiciall to the Truth or justly distastefull to your Person and if it be possible to overcome evill with good FINIS In the absence of the Author these following Errata's escaped in the printing of the Vindication which I pray thus Correct Page 2. line 23. for you will charge read you will not charge p. 6. l. 30. for and Sectaries ● of Sectaries p. 7. l. 1. for till r. the p. 8. l. last for stated r. sacred p. 14. l 22 for finde in r. finde it in l. 24. for these their words r. these are their words p. 23 l. 27. for elected r erected p. 26. l. 26. for ones Poesie r Ovids Poesie

viz. The Replyer observing the Remonstran s●ascribing onely a share of the supreme Power to the House of Commons proposeth this Question to them Will not you allow so much power to the Kingdome representative in r●ference to the Kingdome as to the representative City in reference to London And then you come to your fifth Querie in these following words viz. And so doe I Querie will not the Commons of London yeeld or ascribe unto the Commons of England as the Commons of London to themselves will ascribe Answ. I pray ma●k the termes of your Querie for methinks it is a little defective you say the Commons of London not the Common-Councell but as you propose your Querie I answer affirmatively that the Commons of London will yeeld and ascribe unto the Commons of England as the Commons of London to themselves will ascribe but I say again observe your termes you say the Commons of London not the Common-Councell I shall pres●ntly shew you the difference the Commons of London are not the City representative but the Common-councell which doth consist of the Lord Major Aldermen and Commons is the City representative Then you goe on in these words viz. Therefore Mr. Bellamie to make your absurdities the better appeare in your parallel between the Kingdome representative and the City representative I come upon you thus First you grant that the Common-Councell is the City representative page 2 of your Vindication Answ. I grant it Secondly you grant that the House of Commons in Parliament assembled is the Kingdom representative in the same page Answ. I grant the House of Commons in Parliament assembled to be the Kingdome representative in that sense in which in page 2 of my Vindication I said it was viz. as it is made up of and chosen by the Kingdome collective viz. the Commons of the Kingdome whom in Parliament it onely represents and therefore onely can be the representative body of them and accordingly in all their addresses to the House of Lords they goe in their owne names and in the names of all the Commons of England and desiring the concurrence of the House of Lords in any Act they desire it in their owne names and in the names of all the Commons of England of whom they onely are a representation or whom they doe represent and in that sense I expressed it in page 4 where I called the Kingdome collective the body of the Commons of England not the body of the Kingdom of England And as this representative body viz. the House of Commons is one of the three Estates in Parliament so also in that page I called it the House of Commons in Parliament assembled but I called it not the Parliament so the Lords are called the House of Lords in Parliament assembled but no man cals tha● House the Parliament Likewise the Lords and Commons joyning together in any one Act as in the last Propositions sent to His Majesty it is said to be agreed by both Houses of Parliament as in Article 1 5 6 12 c. it appeareth but it is not said to be agreed by Parliament for it had been so agreed why then is the Kings assent to these Propositions prayed for by both Hous●s of Parliament as in the Proem to the said Propositions in these words it doth appeare Viz. May it please your Majesty Wee the Lords and Commons assembled in the Parliament of England in the name and on the behalfe of the Kingdoms of England and Ireland and the Commissioners of the Parliament of Scotland in the name and on the behalfe of the Kingdome of Scotland Doe humbly present unto your Majesty the humble desires and Propositions for a safe and wel-grounded Peace agreed upon by the Parliaments of both Kingdomes respectively unto which we do pray your Majesties assent and that they and all such as shall bee tendred to your Majesty in pursuance of them or any of them may bee established and enacted for Statutes and Acts of Parliament by your Majesties Royall assent in the Parliaments of both Kingdoms respectively You might also have observed in the same page that when I come to speake of making Laws which is the worke of the Parliament and not of any particular Estate alone in Parliament I there say in expresse termes the Kingdome representative which is the Parliament And sure no man could possibly imagine that my expression should be taken in any other consideration for I did all along in the 14 15 1● 17 18 pages of my Vindication also hold out this truth that there was three distinct Estates in Parliament viz. the King the Lords and the Commons and doe you thinke that it was probable or possible that I should meane that one of the thee● Estates in Parliament should be a representation of all the three Thirdly you say the City representative hath a power to make a Law for those whom it represents Answ. I grant this too Then you thus goe on viz. Fourthly I desire to know whether you allow the Kingdom representative the same power to make a Law for those whom it represents Answ. I crave your favour and patience before you goe any further to present you in this place with these two following considerations First that the House of Commons all the members thereof be●●ing chosen by the collective body of the Kingdome viz. the Commons are in that respect and in that sense truly the representative body of the Kingdome viz. of the Commons of the Kingdome and so have in them in this consideration the full Legislative power of the Commons of England Secondly I pray also consider that though the House of Commons have in them the full Legislative power of the Commons of England yet the whole Legislative power of the Kingdome of England is not concentred in the Commons of England but is as hath before been fully proved in the three Estates of the King the Lords and the Commons of England conjunctim and therefore no one Estate alone and by its selfe can make a Law but to the making of every Law in the Kingdome of England there must be the concurrent consent of all these three Estates conjunctim And this as I humbly conceive makes a cleare way to give an answer to your Querie viz. Whether you allow the Kingdom representative viz. the House of Commons the same power to make a Law for those whom i● represents and the answer will bee this It hath in it the full legislative power of the Commons of England whom in Parliament it doth represent but it hath not in it the full legislative power of the kingdome of England it hath in it all the power of the Commons of England towards the making of a Law but it must have the concurrent consent of the other two Estates viz. of the King and of the Lords to the full consummating of a Law and making it obligatory to the Kingdome of England And besides that it is thus setled

by the fundamentall Constitution of the Kingdome I humbly also conceive that there is just reason for it too and that not onely from the relation which these three Estates have one to another but also because of that interest which one Estate hath in another The King being no otherwise King of England but with relation to the subjects of England and so he hath an interest in them and they are his liege that is his lawfull Subjects or his Subjects according to the Law And likewise the Lords and Commons of England are no otherwise Subjects of England but with relation to the King as hee is the King of England in whom also they have the like reciprocall interest and so he is their liege our lawfull Soveraigne or their King according to the Law and thus runs the formes of our Laws viz. Bee it enacted by the King our Soveraigne Lord with the assent of the Lords and Commons in this present Parliament Assembled But the City of London by the Charter of Edw. 3. in the 15 yeare of his Reigne hath a power granted to the Major and Aldermen and their successors with the assent of the Commonalty to make lawes for the common profit of the Citizens of the same City by vertue of which grant the Lord Major Aldermen and Commons in Court of Common-Councell assembled being therin as one entire Court the representative Body of the City doe to this day make Laws which are alwayes binding to the Citizens of the same City And there is no other consent required to the consummation of these Laws but the sole and onely authority of this Court and therefore all our Acts of Common-councell are made in the joint names of the Lord Major Aldermen and Commons in the Court of Common-councell assembled and by the authority thereof and in the addition of any branch in an act of Common councell it is still thus exprest It is by this Court further Ordered c. Or this Court doth further Order c. which doth fully prove that all the power of making or altering or adding to the City lawes rests wholly and alone in the body of that one Court of Common-councell or the greater number of them which doth alwayes consist of the Lord Major Aldermen and Commons but all the power of making or repealing or adding to the lawes of the kingdome doth not rest wholly and alone in the House of Commons but the concurrent consent of the other two Estates viz. the King and the Lords is necessarily required to this of the Commons for making or repealing of the Laws of the Kingdome And thus I hope I have answered your first head of Queries arising from that question viz. wherein resides the Supreme power of the Kingdome I shall now likewise endeavour to give a solution to your Argument and all the satisfaction I can to the second head of your Queries For a foundation to build your Arguments upon you produce an Argument of mine out of my Book entit●led A Plea for the Commonalty of London thus it is That Court which hath a power to make a law and by that law to conferre a power upon the Lord Major and Aldermen which as Lord Major and Aldermen they had not before must needs bee quoad hoe as unto the making of a law above the Lord Major and Aldermen But this Court of Common-councell hath c. Ergo this Court of Common-councell so farre as to the making of a Law must needs bee above the Lord Major and Aldermen Answ. I owne the Argument and for confirmation of what I t●●re affirmed concerning the power of the Court of Common-councell I made it good and proved it d● facto by an act of Common-councel made in the sixth yeare of Hen. 7. upon the 15 of Aprill concerning the choice of the Chamberlaine of London and the Bridge-masters of the City as by reference to the said Book appeareth and I would willingly see what you have to say against it But upon this in your 25 page you thus argue That Court which hath the power to make a law and by that law to conferre a power upon the King and Lords which as King and Lords they had not before must needs be quoad hoc unto the making of a law above the King and Lord But the House of C●mmon● which say you speaking of mee is the kingdome representative even as the Common-councell is the City representative upon your suppos●tion hath a power c. Ergo the House of Commons so far as unto the making of a law must needs bee above the King and Lords But I pray you tell me is there no difference between the Court of Common-councell and the Commons in Common-councel I told you even now in page 42 that the Lord Major Aldermen and Commons in Common-councell assembled being therein one entire Court are the representative body of the City I never said the Commons in that Court were so and if you had been pleased to have perused that Booke of mine you cite to this purpose and out of which you take my argument viz. The Ple● for the Commonalty of London in page 10. where I instance in four severall acts of that Court viz. the removing of Deputy Ald●n from the Court Mr. Iohn Wilde from being Town Clerk Mr. Tho. Wiseman from being the City Remembrancer and divers Aldermens Deputies from their places of Deputyship you might there have found that I thus conclude it viz. And all this by the joint and concurrent power of the Lord Major Aldermen and Commons in this Common-councell assembled And what though the Court of Common-councell which alwayes consisteth of the Lord Major Aldermen and Commons have a power to conferre upon the Lord Major and Aldermen that power which as Lord Major and Aldermen they had not before as I fully proved and therefore without the least mutation am still of the same mind and in that respect as unto the making of a Law are above the Lord M●jor and Aldermen as the whole is above a part● But will it hence follow that the Commons in Common-councell alone and by themselves have either this power to conferre a power upon the Lord Major and Aldermen which as Lord Major and Aldermen they had not before or that they are above them If you will argue from my assertion bee sure you keep my terms and then see how it will advantage you for the confirmation of your argument I grounded this power of making City Laws from the Charter of Edw. 3. in the 15 yeare of his Reigne And in the same Book of mine out of which you took my argument you might also have had my authority for it it is in page 7 in these words Wee have granted further for us and our heires and by this our present Charter confirmed to the Major and Aldermen of the City aforesaid that if any customes in the said City hitherto obtained and used be in any part difficult

A IVSTIFICATION OF THE City Remonstrance AND ITS VINDICATION OR An Answer to a Book written by Mr. I. P. Entituled The City Remonstrance Remonstrated Wherein the frequent Falsifyings of the said Mr. I. P. are discovered the many Charges by him laid upon the Remonstrance and its Vindicator disproved and the parity and agreement of the Remonstrance especially in those particulars so much condemned by him with the Propositions Declarations Remonstrances and Votes of both or either House of Parliament manifested By JOHN BELLAMIE LONDON Printed by Richard Cotes 1646. To the Right Honorable Thomas Adams Lord Major and to the Right Worshipfull the Aldermen and the rest of the Common-Councell of the City LONDON Right Honourable Right Worshipfull VPon the 14 of April last you being in Court of Common-councell assembled made choice of a Committee of Aldermen and Commoners to prepare a draught of A Remonstrance and Petition to both Houses of Parliament and to present it in Court to be there either approved or altered as upon debate should be judged meet In obedience thereunto the said Committee upon the 20 of May following presented it in Common-councell where every branch thereof was taken apart and by it self into serious Consideration and after three dayes debating in open Court it was by consent and approbation of the Court finished and upon the 26 of May in the name of the Lord Major Aldermen and Common-councell presented to both Houses of Parliament Since which time two Libells have been Printed against the said Remonstrance the one call'd A moderate Reply to the City Remonstrance the other entituled The Interest of England maintained In one of which it is charged to carry a full complyance with His Majesties wonted Declarations against the Parliament and in the other That a great part of the main Sticklers in it are such as were alwayes backward to the Parliament and forced to pay their Fifth and twentieth part with many other foolish foule and false aspersions in them both Whereupon though the unmeetest because the unablest of many others I adventured the Vindication of it In answer whereof a●d in further opposition to the said Remonstrance one Mr. J. P. hath since published a Book named The City Remonstrance Remonstrated calling it a hard-hearted Remonstrance and a Remonstrance invective against the Parliament c. And in Page 29. charges mee● for saying s●mething but instances in nothing concerning the King the Lords and the power of the Commons and what my carriages have been not very long since in Common-councell c. and doth thereby as it were in a tacite way call the Court to testifie against me All which hath occasioned me this second time to put pen t● Paper in a further Justification of your Remonstrance and also of its Vindication and to a clearing of my self from those many charges of mutation and change which to beget a d●sesteem of what I have written in Vindication of the Remonstrance hee hath laid against me My intention in this my addresse unto your Lordship to the worthy Aldermen and to all the rest of the Common-councell is neither to exasperate you against the person of my opposite nor yet to seeke protection from you for my self or Books for if what I have written be not co●cordable to Truth and true Reason let both mee and them fall before my Antagonist But being thus publ●kely charged that I should not very long since speak something but what it is hee saith not in Common-councell c. as if it were crosse or contrary to some passages in the Remonstrance or to what I have written in the Vindication thereof for saith he It makes them that heard it and observe what your Carriages are now stand with admiration and amazement at your wheeling thus about I ●oe therefore humbly crave leave to present this my Justification of your Remonstrance and its Vindication to your Lordship and to the whole Court of Common-councell and doe appeal to all of you in generall and to every one of you in particular t●●estifie against me if at any time since I had that undeserved honour and happinesse to be a member of this Court there ever fell any one word from me so much as savouring of such things as by this Mr. J. P. I am charged to speak in your presence and I shall ever remain Your Lordships and this Cities servant IOHN BELLAMIE To my truly Loved and Honoured FRIEND Mr. IOHN PRICE SIR I Have perused your Book entituled The City Remonstrance Remonstrated or an answer to my Vindication of the said Remonstrance wherin I perceive you have been very ready to receive whatever Reports either true or false have been broug●t unto you conc●rning my carriage in matters of Religion even from the day of my birth to the publishing of your Book and taking them upon trust for you have not the least knowledge of any one of the particular● and many of them relate I think to the time before you were born without ever speaking one word to me about them though wee are professed and have been long acquainted ●ntimate Friends and to the best of my knowledge and remembrance not any time the least offensive word ever passed between us and now are so neare neighbors that whenever you p●eased in lesse then one quarter of an hour you might freely have communicated to me whatever you h●d a desire to bee satisfied in you have as I con●eive to weaken my esteem and to render what I have written to bee the more invalid divulged them to the world Two th●ngs I desire i● love to represent unto you in this First if all that you have written of mee were true the contrary wherof I shall easily prove when I come to the particulars yet I beseech you consider how irregular this your proceeding against me is and contrary to the rule given by our Saviour Christ for you and mee and all Gods people to walke by in Mat●h 18. 15 16 17. If thy brother trespasse against thee goe and tell him his fault between thee and him alone if he shall heare thee thou hast gained thy brother c. and mind that of Solomon Prov. 15. 18. A man that beareth false witnesse against his neighbour is a maul a sword and a sharpe arrow Secondly I pray also remember how exceedingly your selfe and all your friends the Antipresbyters have distasted and by word of mouth often with much dislike blamed Mr. Edwards for medling with personall matters notwithstanding his way of writing in this kind is much different from this of yours as being of practises and matters within these few years since they went into that way of Independency and as hee conceives flowing from their principles and not as you in this of things raked up through the whole course of their lives being also professedly to discover the errors of the times viz Here●ies Blasphemies c. and thereby to preserve the people from the evill of them Now I pray