of Record in the House of Lords L. C. J. But that we are not to take notice of without the Record be brought in Evidence before us we must go according to the course of Law in all Cases Oates Then my Lord I must betake my self to another part of my defence and that is to prove the frequent attempts made to baffle the Discovery of this Popish Plot and to stifle the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and to fling it upon a Protestant Peer L. C. J. But that is no Evidence neither Mr. Just Holloway Surely that is very Collateral Evidence L. C. J. Nay it is no Evidence at all in this Case we must not admit of any such Evidence to be given Oates Good my Lord if this had not been true which was sworn by Witnesses that had discovered the Plot why should these Men appear to suborn Witnesses and they have been Convicted of Subornation and endeavouring to baffle the Discovery particularly as to Justice Godfrey's Death L. C. J. Mr. Oates I must keep you to Evidence that is proper we are upon our Oaths to go according to Law and the Jury are upon their Oaths to Try this Cause according to their Evidence and we are bound to give them this advice in point of Law that nothing must weigh or have any consideration with them that you offer if it be not legal and proper Evidence if you can say and prove that any of the Witnesses that have been produc'd this day against you have been tamper'd with or that they have tamper'd with any of the former Evidence that is a good Evidence against them but it must not be by any means admitted that the time of the Court be taken up or the Jury enveigled by that which has not a natural tendency to the business before us Oates But if your Lordship please this Consult in April 78. was discovered to the House of Commons among the other parts of the Discovery of the Treasons of several Noble Men and Gentlemen now upon the whole discovery of the Plot I would desire that I might give in proof the Proceedings of the House of Commons L. C. J. No no you cannot Oates Pray my Lord is not the Journal of the House of Commons Evidence L. C. J. No we say it is not at all Oates Is that the Opinion of the whole Court my Lord L. C. J. Yes undoubtedly there is no question of it Oates Is any Record of the House of Lords Evidence L. C. J. Yes I tell you it is and that because it is a Record but there is a vast difference between the Records of the House of Lords and the Journals of the House of Commons Oates The Journals have been delivered in as Evidence before now L. C. J. I cannot tell what they have been but I am sure they ought not to be and whatever they have been elsewhere they cannot be here and I 'le tell you a plain reason for it because they have not so much power in the House of Commons as to give an Oath but the House of Peers is a Court of Record and therefore their Proceedings are Evidence as the Proceedings of the Kings Bench here or any other Court of Record are Oates Then my Lord if that part of my Evidence be over-rul'd before I come to summ up my Evidence I desire to offer this thing My Lord I can produce several Members of the House of Commons in the several Parliaments that can remember how they proceeded against the Lords in the Tower and the Popish Traitors upon my Discovery and what credit I had in the House of Commons Will that be Evidence pray my Lord L. C. J. No it will not if you will produce any one that you told this to before the publick Discovery that may be Evidence such as it is and is often allow'd but what the House of Commons did upon the Discovery that 's not any Evidence at all Oates Then my Lord suppose I can prove that I gave an Early and Timely account to any of the House of Lords of this Conspiracy and did acquaint them with the Consult in April as part of it I desire to know whether in producing any of those Lords I shall give that which is Evidence L. C. J. Call whom you will that you told any thing to that is a sort of Evidence I tell you Oates Then I call my Lord of Devonshire L. C. J. Here is my Lord of Devonshire Oates My Lord I beg your pardon for the trouble I put your Lordship to but your Lordship sees the necessity of it it is for the justification of the Truth to which I will give my Blood for a Seal if I be call'd to it L. C. J. My Lord of Devonshire your Lordship must be sworn which was done Oates Will your Lordship be pleased to acquaint the Court and the Jury your Lordship being at that time a Member of the Commons House what an account I gave there of this particular Consult to keep to that point that is here in question before the Court this day and with what credit I was received in all these Parliaments for my Credit and the Credit of the Parliament is now in question E. of Devonshire My Lord all I can say to it is this you Mr. Oates gave a long account of a Consult and Conspiracy among the Jesuits but I cannot remember any particular it is so long ago L. C. J. Every Body knows this you gave a long Narrative into the House of Commons and House of Lords too Oates Ay and it was a true one but my Lord of Devonshire I desire your Lordship would be pleased to give the Court and the Jury an account with what credit I was received in those Three Parliaments your Lordship sat as Member in E. of Devonshire I remember that the two Westminster Parliaments after the long Parliament were so satisfied with the Discovery that they passed a Vote in the House of Commons L. C. J. The Votes of the House of Commons are no Evidence at all Oates They show what opinion the Parliament was of L. C. J. Many Votes that have been made of late I hope will neither be Evidence for nor put in practice again E. of Devonshire My Lord it is well known to all the World the Vote I speak of L. C. J. Nay my Lord I speak not to your Lordship for we all know those Votes that I speak of were not according to your Lordships mind But we only say thus in General that because the House of Commons cannot give an Oath therefore what is done there is not an Evidence here or in any Court of Record Oates But my Lord that I must urge I do perceive that in the time of Parliament and during the Sitting of the House of Commons Votes have been brought in as Barrs to the Proceedings of Inferior Courts and this Court does not look upon it self as Superior to the Great Court of
the Jury Oates My Lord I have one thing more and that is A Copy of the Record out of the House of Lords It is in the Journal the twenty fifth of March seventy nine Mr. Walker My Lord I have not the Book here it was not spoke for Oates But do you know this hand Shewing him a Copy Mr. Walker Yes and I Believe it is a true Copy L. C. Justice Read it C. Crown Reads Tuesday the 25 of March 1679. Oates It is the last Clause in the Journal of that day C. Crown Reads Resolved Nemine Contradicente by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons in Parliament assembled That they do declare that they are fully satisfied by the Proofs they have heard That there now is and for divers years last past hath been a Horrid and Treasonable Plot and Conspirary contrived and carried on by those of the Popish Religion for the Murthering of his Majestie 's Sacred Person and for subverting the Protestant Religion and the Ancient and Established Government of this Kingdom Oates There is an Order to have that Vote printed and inserted before the Form of Prayer for the Fast 'Pray' Sir read the next Page Cl. Crown Reads Die Lunae 25. Oct. 1680. Vpon Report from the Lords Committees for examining matters relating to the discovery of the late Horrid Plot and Conspiracy That Captain Thomas Bickley hath lately vilified Dr. Titus Oates at a publick meeting at Chichester to the prejudice of his Majestie 's Evidence for the further discovery of the said Plot It is thereupon ordered by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled That the Said Thomas Bickley be and is hereby required to appear before their Lordships in the Lord privy-Privy-Seals Lodgings near the house of Peers on Wednesday the third day of November next at eight of the Clock in the forenoon And it is further ordered that Alderman Exon and Alderman William Bury of Chichester aforesaid who were then present at the said meeting do likewise attend their Lordships at the time aforesaid to give Evidence of what they know concerning this Matter L. C. Justice What of all this we know hereupon Bickley was turned out of Commission and now Bickley is in again But it seems as you had credit with some then so you had not with others Well have you done now all Mr. Att. Gen. Yes my Lord. Mr. Soll. Gen. If Mr. Oates will Summ up his Evidence then I will do the same for the King when he has done L. C. Justice Well what say you Mr. Oates Oates Now my Lord here is an Indictment preferr'd against me for Perjury and the Evidence they have given for the King is this 1. They have call'd Mr. Foster and he tells you that I was produced at the Sessions-house in the Old Baily where he was summon'd as a Jury man upon the Trial of Ireland and he says That when I was produc'd at the Sessions in the Old Baily as a Witness and sworn if I do remember Mr. Foster aright in what he says he did hear me swear That there was a Treasonable Consult of Jesuits upon the twenty fourth of April 78. at the White-Horse-Tavern in the Strand and he does further say That I said those Jesuits afterwards came to a Resolution to kill the King and that they separated themselves into lesser Clubs the Resolution being drawn up by one Mico and that I carryed it from Chamber to Chamber to be signed and did see it signed My Lord I did ask Mr. Foster Whether I in my Evidence called it a Consult or a Traiterous Consult Now my Lord 't is true I did call it a Traiterous Consult it is as true that I did swear there was such a Consult and it is as true that I did swear this Consult did divide it self into lesser Companies it is as true that I did say I did carry that Resolution about from Chamber to Chamber and saw them sign that Resolution for murdering the King I do not mean of this King but of the late King My Lord the Evidence I think I nor no honest man shall need to be asham'd of I am not ashamed to own that I repeated this Evidence several times nor that I gave that Evidence upon Oath for it is Truth my Lord and nothing but Truth and I resolve by the Grace of God to stand by it and confirm it with my Blood if there be occasion My Lord to Convict me of Perjury they have brought a parcel of St. Omers Witnesses and these do swear that which they would have sworn six years ago but then the Court thought them not fit to be sworn not only because the Law will not allow them but because of their Religion that can dispense with false Oaths if it were for a good Cause and that was the Remark my Lord C. Justice Scroggs then made of it I shall not insist much upon what they have sworn for that I suppose your Lordship and the Jury do very well Remember But I have five things to Object to their Evidence and I hope the Jury will take notice of my Objections and make their Remarks upon them for since you have heard the Evidence that is brought against me it will be necessary for your Lordship to weigh the nature of these Witnesses and the Value that the several Juries of London and Middlesex had for them 'T is true there are several brought here now that never were Witnesses before there are indeed other men but of the same Religion and the same Interest and therefore their Testimony must be of the same Value I think your Lordship will allow me that Therefore I Begin with their Religion and that I take notice to be a great Objection to their Evidence as I am advis'd by those that are Learned in the Law And I must appeal to the Court whether a Papist in Case of Religion may be believed and received as a good Witness L. C. Justice We must nor hear any of these Idle Expressions Mr. Just Withens Do you think you are come here to preach Mr. Oates L. C. Justice I 'll tell you a Papist except you 'll prove any Legal Objection against him is as good a Witness in a Court of Record as any other Person whatsoever Oates But if your Lordships I 'll tell you my Lord Cook 's practice was not to admit them as good Witnesses L. C. Justice Do not tell me of my Lord Cook 's practice the Law is otherwise keep to the Business that you have here in hand the Question before us Whether you were forsworn in Ireland's Trial or not Answer that if you can but you must not run out into Clamors and idle Extravagances Oates My Lord I demand it as my Right to be heard what I have to except against the witnesses L. C Justice I tell you you shall be heard when you speak properly But are you to determine what is Right or what is Wrong Oates I am to
I must come to be called to an account for Perjury in my Testimony of that part of the Popish Plot with which the King and Kingdom four successive Parliaments all the Judges of the Land and three Juries were so well satisfied I shall therefore offer to your Lordship and the Juries consideration the unanimous Votes of three Houses of Commons I shall offer the Proceedings of the House of Lords that is the highest Judicature in the Kingdom I shall prove what I have open'd by the Testimony of several Noblemen that are here who will testifie this for me My Lord I shall prove that several attempts have been made to baffle this Testimony as that of the Murther of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey who took my Depositions the Contrivance of Paine Farewell and Thompson made in the year 81 or 82 I forget which I shall then produce Evidence that I was actually here in Town at the time in question and then upon the whole I shall submit it to your Lordship and the Jury But to prepare your Lordship and the Jury the better for my Evidence I would again urge the strangeness of this Prosecution and the hardship that is put upon me to be tryed for Perjury in an Evidence given six years ago and formerly very industriously though not succesfully endeavoured to be falsified by sixteen St. Omers Youths that were produced and examined before all the Judges in the Kingdom and that not only once at Whitebread's Trial but a second time at Langhorn's Trial in neither of which would the Jury believe them because of their Religion and Education and the persons under whom they were educated who were men of known Artifice Then my Lord I would this argue If that time my Evidence were true it must be true still for Truth is always the same and if it were then true and I can prove it to be true 't will be thought a hard thing without all doubt that this should be put upon me Then my Lord I would fain know from my Prosecutors Why this Indictment of Perjury has been deferred so long Why these Witnesses that come now to testifie this matter and could then have been brought did not come before to justifie at the Trials of these persons what they now say which might have sav'd their Lives if true and had been credited Then I shall offer to your Lordship what I desire You and the Jury would please to observe That though the King's Councel are now against me yet they are also against themselves for they were of Councel for the King in those Cases particularly Mr. Sollicitor at Langhorn's Trial Sir Robert Sawyer at Sir George Wakeman's Trial They were of Councel before for the truth of my Testimony they are now against it I only mention that and pass it over But this is not the first attempt that has been made to discredit the Testimony of the Popish Plot as I told you before Now can it be supposed that the love and desire of publick Justice can be the cause of this attempt to falsifie my Evidence after so many Trials in which it has been credited and confirmed Can any thing my Lord more plainly tend to destroy and subvert the methods of Justice to frighten all Witnesses from henceforth from ever appearing to discover any Conspiracies and does it not tend to expose and vilifie the known Understanding and Justice of the late King of ever Blessed Memory to arraign the Wisdom of His Privy-Council His Great and Noble Peers His Loyal Commons in three successive Parliaments His Twelve Judges and all those several Juries that were upon those Trials Had not those Juries sense had they not honesty had they no consciences And the Judges before whom those Conspirators were try'd were they men of no Justice nor Honour nor Integrity nor Conscience nor Understanding Shall those Juries be said to have drawn the innocent Blood of these men upon their own Heads and the Nation as if I were perjur'd it must be innocent Blood that was shed upon it L. C. J. No no that goes a great deal too far Mr. Oates The Jury have no share nor the Judges neither in that Blood which was shed by your Oath Mr. Justice Withens No That is your own most certainly and not theirs Oates But this I say makes it most plain The Evidence was then true and I hope I shall make it as evidently plain 't is as true now and I do not question but upon the Evidence I shall now give both Positive and Collateral the Jury will believe me and acquit me of this foul Accusation Pray my Lord be pleased to consider that when the Jury brought in Ireland guilty of the High-Treason of which he was accused and convicted him Pickering and Grove says my Lord Chief Justice Scroggs that then was to them Gentlemen you have done like very good Subjects and very good Christians that is like very good Protestants and now much good may do them with their Thirty Thousand Masses as I shall prove he did say Then I insist in the second place That Whitebread's Conviction does reinforce the Conviction of Ireland because of the attempt by the St. Omers Witnesses to have overthrown my Evidence But since I am attaqu'd again in the same kind by the violence of the Popish Interest and by the malice of my Popish Adversaries I am contented to stand the Test with all my heart And then to conclude all I shall shew the Court That 't is in vain for the Popish Party to expect and think to wipe their mouths with Solomon's Whore and say they have done no wickedness No I question not but thousands of Protestants in this Kingdom are fully satisfied and convinced of the Truth of the Popish Plot all and every part of it Now my Lord if you please to give me leave to proceed on in my Evidence I shall beg that these Records of Conviction may be read which are my first Proof of the Consult and I shall then bring Witnesses viva voce and shall make it appear that what I did swear at those Trials was true L. C. J. Not to intetrupt you in your Defence or the method you will take for it I would put you upon that which is proper for you to apply your self to because the question now is not Whether there was a Consult or Congregation of the Jesuits here upon the 24th of April 78 but the question that toucheth you is Whether you were present at any such Consult here in London the 24th of April 78 These Gentlemen some of them do say there was a Consult and others that they heard of it and believe there was such an one because it was usual to have a Triennal Congregation for some particular purposes But the question is Whether you have sufficient proof to prove your self to be here on the 24th of April 78 at which time it is agreed of all hands there was a Consult Oates But will your
received so much Credit and Approbation so long ago by the good opinion that all forts of men had of it at that time And Now to question this he would have thought to be a casting a Blot upon the Wisdom of the Nation and an arraigning the Justice of it when if the thing be duly considered the not punishing this hainous offence with the utmost severity that the Law will allow of now that these Circumstances appear to make it plain and evident would be a greater piece of Injustice and Reproach rather to our Nation than any ways a Reflection on the Justice of it Gentlemen when we consider the Circumstances of this Case now I do verily think it will appear to be a very strange and wonderful thing to us that ever any man should have believed him And it is a strange Consideration to reflect upon to think what Credit he had at that time But withal consider Gentlemen could any one imagine that it were possible for any man on Earth to become so impudent as to dare to expose himself before the High Court of Parliament the great Courts of Justice and there tell a most Infamous Lye for the taking away the Lives of men the greatness of the Attempt was a great inducement to the belief of it because no man could be presumed to dare the doing of such a thing if he had not a Foundation of truth to build upon And when he had thus made his discovery and that of such a nature too a most horrid bloody and traiterous Conspiracy to murder the King to overturn the Government to massacre all the Protestants in the Kingdom and to deface the very name of the Protestant Religion What was more natural than that the Parliament should take all imaginable care to prevent the accomplishment of so great a mischief And consider too how much easier it was for him to relate his Evidence in a continued Story than afterwards it was to maintain it when it came to be examined and opposed by them that were accused who best knew wherein and by what means to prove him false Gentlemen the Care the Parliament took to disappoint any designs of this nature and the means they used for the security of the King and Kingdom and the Preservation of our Religion and Lives which I cannot but observe was praevious to the Trial of any one Offender that was tryed and convicted upon this Evidence must needs put the whole Nation under great apprechensions of danger and make the way much easier for him to be believed as by sad experience we found it did Under these circumstances came those men to be tryed with this further as we cannot now but think that there were ill men at work that laboured to improve those fears and Jealousies that had already possest mens minds the wonder then will be the less if men under such disadvantages tryed by men under those fears and apprehensions had the ill Fortune to be convicted But when men had a little overcome their fears and began to consider his Evidence more calmly the scene was changed Oates lost his Credit and the men were all acquitted Nor is this Prosecution any reflection on the Protestant Religion whose cause he falsty assumes to himself No Gentlemen the Protestant Religion had no share in that invention It needs not the support of a Lye no not the most plausible Lye much less of one so Infamous as this does now appear to be It is rather a Vindication of our Religion to punish such Offenders as they deserve and the proper way to maintain the Justice of the Nation and wipe off that reproach this mans Perjury has brought upon it L. C. Justice Then Gentlemen of the Jury the Evidence has been very long and it cannot be expected after so much time has been spent in this Cause and such a difference of testimony and especially considering that the testimony has met with frequent interruptions and I may say some part of it delivered in great Confusion it cannot be thought or imagined I say that I should be able to remind you of the several particulars that concern this Case and may be necessary to be observed about it But Gentlemen I am sure by the Knowledge I have of the most of you you are persons of great Understanding so that what may be omitted by me I question not but your own abilities will supply I confess I am much shortned in my Labour by the pains that Mr. Sollicitor has taken to summ up the Evidence to you and without all doubt has done it with all Faithfulness to his Master and with great Right to himself I could not hear much of what he did say but you who were nearer and did hear all which I could not do your Judgments will direct you to lay that weight upon it which it deserves and which the Law will allow for Gentlemen I am bound to tell you that you are to lay no weight upon any Allegations on the one side or on the other or what is observed to you by the Court further than is supported by the Testimony that has been offered Now Gentlemen I think it not amiss for me before such time as I enter upon the Consideration of the particulars and reminding you what I take to be Evidence in this case and what not to clear one point that this person Oates the Defendant against whom this Indictment of Perjury is brought has endeavoured to insinuate on purpose to gain himself a Reputation which if he could acquire this way would add a greater Reproach to the Justice of the Nation than it has contracted already by giving too much Credit to such Profligate Wretches as have too lately appeared among us The Objection he makes and insists so much upon says he I was believed very much before I can produce you the opinions of the Judges that declared themselves very well satisfied with my Evidence and the Verdicts of Juries two or three that convicted men upon my Testimony and rot only that but here were likewise three or four Parliaments that did not only believe that Testimony or rather Narrative for I cannot call that Testimony which was given before the House of Commons that I gave but did declare their Satisfaction of the Truth of what I said which Satisfaction and Belief of theirs did produce thanks from both Houses to me for giving this Testimony But all this while what Mr. Sollicitor said upon this point is a plain and a full answer to it If in case upon a suddain information the King the Parliament the Courts of Law and Juries were surprized into this Belief as not imagining there could be a pack of such Villains that could be wound up to that height as these Fellows have been that there could be such an horrid Imposture as this Fellow that should make such attempts unless there had been some truth in it Therefore the surprise of the thing at that time