make it an order That notice shall be taken of all persons that forsake the publick assembly of Saints We would gladly know how far you extend this Saintship this Church and assembly of Saints if to your own Church onely and such as subject themselves to your Government then S. Augustines Answer against the Donatists who would not acknowledge a Church in the World but amongst themselves may also be yours O Impudentem Vocem saith he Illa non est Quia tu in illa non es Vide ne tu ideo non sis nam illa erit etsi tu non sis But if your charity reach further then to your own assemblies then you make lawless persons such as will not subject themselves to your Government Saints and members at least of the invisible Triumphant Church though none of your present visible militant Church and then your charity over-reacheth Again we are unsatisfied in the Word Publique the publique assemblies of the Saints What do not private assemblies please you We presume you are not against private meetings your own practice speaks the contrary But you will bind all notwithstanding your private Assemblies to frequent your publique also other wayes they shall be taken notice of What though they cannot submit to your Government Leave you no room for tender consciences The Laws of the Land have otherwayes provided And if you under colour of authority will make Laws and Edicts and publish them openly in the Church for all to obey upon pain of excommunication contrary to the Laws in force whether you do it in contempt of the civil power or through ignorance of the Laws which later is rather to be supposed in a charitable and favourable construction yet in what sense soever it be taken we much question and it concerns you to look to it whether you have not run your selves into a praemunire Again whereas you say That like notice shall be taken of all scandalous persons Our next Quaere is Whether those that forsake the publique Assemblies of Saints in the second order may not be taken for scandalous and so comprehended in this third If so Quare oneramini ritibus why do you lengthen out your paper and burden us with traditions in multiplying of orders sine necessitate ad Arthritim usque After the second and third orders against those that forsake the publique Assemblies of Saints and such as are scandalous comes in a fourth touching the Catechumenists in the first order mentioned viz. That the Minister when he Cateobizeth the several Families shall exhort such persons in them as he finds be of competent knowledge and are blamelesse in life that they present themselves to the Eldership that they may be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper But what if they will not present themselves before the Eldership The Minister must exhort and admonish them What if still they refuse Their names shall be published openly in the several congregations and they warned before all to reform That 's the fifth order Mark Men of blamelesse life and knowledge must be warned before all to reform But what if after all this they will not reform but continue obstinate Then no admission to the Sacrament that 's implyed in the fourth order There 's their Excommunicatio minor But that 's not all a higher censure yet They shall be cast out and excommunicated So faith the sixth and last order the great Excommunication which casteth out of the Church also and judgeth them no better then Heathens and Publicans notwithstanding all their piety and knowledge So that in brief all wilfully ignorant and scandalous are to be excommunicated and not onely they but the knowing and blamelesse of life if they present not themselves to the Eldership These things premised lying sadly on our spirits and consciences as not sound and orthodox for which we cannot so readily joyn with you till further satisfaction be given us and which the publisher of your Paper promised should be given to all that did desire We therefore thought fit to signifie these our scruples to you and shall wait earnestly for a speedy satisfaction in the particulars remaining January the 12. 1657. Your Brethren desirous of Truth Vnity and Peace in the Church Joshuah Cudworth John Ogden Sen. John Ogden Junior Capt. James Buckley Israel Taylor John Buckley Nicholas Walker Ralph Hall Edward Newton Abraham Butterworth Robert Twyford William Radclyffe Jo. Hartley Ra. Bradshaw Edward Richardson Tho. Holland Fra. Mosley John Byrom Alexand. Radclyffe Robert Hey Robert Ashton William Heawood Alexander Greene. James Marler George Booth Richard Symonds Richard Waite Richard Halliwell Isaac Allen. Jo. Pollett Tho. Prestwich Leonard Egerton Ferdinando Stanley Humphrey Bulkly Nichol. Moseley William Hulme William Holland Thomas Symonds John Scholefield Ja. Wolstenhulme Jo. Crompton John Grover Tho. Scoles Theo. Anderson Abdie Scholfield Tho. Heap Sen. William Read John Buckley Richard Leach James Stoales Robert Wilson At Manchester Feb. 23. 1657. The Answer of the first Classis within the Province of Lancaster unto the first Paper presented unto them at their Classical meeting Jan. 12. 1657. by certain Gentlemen subscribed by them and sundry others within the bounds of this Association SECT I. Gentlemen WE have perused your Paper and doe finde in it sundry mistakes and some manifest wrestings of our plain meaning in that Paper of ours which was published in our several Congregations And we are also sensible of the sharp reflections in it upon the Government that is committed to our mannagement and on our selves But we shall not go about to answer you in that kind and therefore laying aside animosities and putting away gall and bitternesse in the spirit of love and meeknesse however in faithfulnesse and plainnesse we shall endeavour to shew you your errors and rectifie your mistakes And we do thus far acknowledge your fair dealing for which we give you hearty thanks that you addresse your selves unto us giving us thereby the opportunity both to vindicate our selves and give you a right understanding of the matters wherein you are mistaken Our leasure will not permit us to spend time about impertinencies but yet that you may not conceive we are destitute of civil Authority which you in your Paper minde us not to contemn and we our selves do professedly testifie all due respects unto as in duty we are bound we intreat you to take notice That the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament having resolved to establish the Presbyterian Government throughout the Kingdom of England and Dominion of Wales did August 19. 1645. publish their directions after advice had with the Assembly of Divines for the electing and chusing of ruling Elders in all the Congregations and in the Classical Assemblies for the Cities of London and Westminster and the several Counties of the Kingdom for the speedy settling of the Presbyterian Government In these directions as may be seen pag. 8. they did ordain That in the several Counties certain persons
received in the ancient Church there are proposals of Assemblies of Pastors within certain limited bounds which saving that they are some of them somewhat larger then ours which is but a circumstantial difference doe hold proportion with the Classical Provincial and National Assemblies mentioned in the form of our Church Government as also the times propounded there for their meeting the power of these Assemblies and what they were to have Cognizance of and the subordination of the lesser to the greater with liberty of Appeal if need should require and are the same in substance as with us And all these were propounded as the way of Government in the ancient Church and in the year 1641. after the troubles that had risen in Scotland about Episcopacy and the Ceremonies and before the setting up of the Presbyterian Government in this Land had so much as fallen under debate in the Parliament so far as ever we heard of as an expedient to prevent the troubles that did after arise in this Land about the matter of Church Government being for the moderating of Episcopacy that at that time was grown to that height that it had quite taken away from the Pastors that rule that of right did belong unto them And for the Reduction of it to the ancient form of Synodical Government And therefore in the Judgement of this learned and reverend Antiquary our Provincial Assembly at Preston where the Pastors of the Churches are members as he acknowledgeth of right they ought to be in such Assemblies would not have been accounted a new termed Provincial Assembly SECT IV. BUt you go on and tell us That other parts of our Paper are full of darknesse to which you say you cannot so fully assent till further explicated and unfolded by us We cannot apprehend any such darknesse in our Paper as you speak of But yet because in yours you question what authority we have from the civil Magistrate for what we doe and likewise the extent of it and your mistakes of our meaning may perhaps some of them arise from your unacquaintednesse with the rule we walk by although we were not to be blamed for any mistakes that might arise ab ignorantia juris whether simple or affected that we determine not but leave you to examine Before we come to make Answer more particularly to what follows we are willing to be at some paines to give you some further account of the power we are awarranted by the civil Authority for to exercise to what persons within our bounds it extends it self and what some of those rules are that are prescribed unto us by civil Authority to walk by in the exercise of that power we are betrusted with It is a general and common mistake amongst many that the Presbyterian Government was established by the Parliament but for three years and that therefore it is now expired and our of date But if you peruse all that passed in Parliament touching it no such matter will appear The directions of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament after advice had with the Assembly of Divines for the electing and chusing Ruling Elders in all the Congregations and in the Classical Assemblies for the Cities of London and Westminster and the several Counties of the Kingdom for the speedy settling of the Presbyterian Government bearing date August 19. 1645. Their Ordinance together with Rules and Directions concerning suspension from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in cases of Ignorance and scandal dated Octob. 20. 1645 The Votes also of the said Houses for the Choise of Elders throughout the Kingdom of England and Dominion of Wales in the respective Parish Churches and Chappels according to the directions before mentioned And touching the power granted to the Tryers of Elections of Elders Of the date of Febr. 20. 1645. and Febr. 26. 1645 Their Ordinance for keeping scandalous Persons from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the inabling of Congregations for the choice of Elders and supplying of defects in former Ordinances and Directions of Parliament concerning Church Government bearing date March 14. 1645 The Remedies prescribed by them for removing some obstructions in Church Government dated April 22. 1647 And their Ordinance for the speedy dividing and settling the several Counties of this Kingdom into distinct Classical Presbyteries and Congregationall Elderships dated Jan. 29. 1647 We say all these were passed absolutely without any proviso's at all limiting the time of their continuance that is expressed in any of them Indeed in the Ordinance of Parliament giving power to all the Classical Presbyteries within their respective bounds to examine approve and ordain Ministers for several Congregations dated Nov. 10. 1645 It is provided in the Close of it That it shall stand in force for twelve moneths and no longer As it is provided in another Ordinance for the Ordination of Ministers by the Classical Presbyters within their respective bounds for the several Congregations in the Kingdom of England bearing date August 28. 1646 that it shall stand in force for three yeares and no longer Which latter might give to some that took but the matter upon report an occasion to conceive that the Presbyterian Government was settled but for three yeares although that was but ill applied to all the several Ordinances that had passed before which belonged onely to one But the Ordinance especially from which chiefly as we conceive the mistake arose about settling the Presbyterian Government for three years onely was the Ordinance that passed June 5. 1646 The title whereof is An Ordinance of the Lords and Commons Assembled in Parliament for the present settling without further delay of the Presbyterial Government in the Church of England In the Close whereof it is ordained That this Ordinance shall continue for the space of three yeares and no longer unlesse both Houses think fit to continue it But if the matter of this Ordinance be consulted it is manifest it was but touching a Committee of Lords and Commons to adjudge and determine scandalous offences not formerly enumerated appointed by that Ordinance in stead and place of Commissioners mentioned in the Ordinance of March 14. 1645 And also shewing how the Elderships were to proceed in the examination of such scandalous offences And touching what power was granted to the said Committee and in what sort they were to proceed as is clear to any that shall but take the pains to peruse that Ordinance The ground whereof in the preface to it is made to be this The Lords and Commons in Parliament holding their former resolution that all notorious and scandalous offenders shall be kept from the Sacrament have thought fit to make a further addition to the scandalous offences formerly enumerated for which men shall be kept back from the Sacrament And least the stay of the enumeration and the not naming of Commissioners to judge of Cases not enumerated should hinder the putting in execution the Presbyterian Government already established They have
Ministers and others should be appointed by authority of Parliament who should consider how the several Counties respectively might be most conveniently divided into distinct Classical Presbyteries and what Ministers and others were fit to be of each Classis And that they should accordingly make such division and nomination of persons for each Classical Presbytery Which divisions and persons so named for every division the appointed should be certified up to the Parliament And they further appointed That the said several Classes respectively being approved by Parliament within their several precincts should have power to constitute Congregational Elderships According to these directions the persons by them appointed for this County met and did consider how it might be most conveniently divided into distinct Classical Presbyteries and what Ministers and others were fit to be of each Classis and also made such a division and nomination accordingly and certified the same up to the Parliament All which being done according to their directions and appointment It was resolved by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament Oct. 2. 1646. That they did approve of the division of the County of Lancaster into nine Classical Presbyteries represented from the said County And it was further resolved That the said Houses did approve of the Ministers and other persons represented from the County of Lancaster as fit to be of the several and respective Classes into which the said County was divided Which division of this County into nine Classical Presbyteries and the approval thereof by the said Lords and Commons was forthwith printed and published In this division so made and approved The first Classis is to contain Manchester Parish Prestwich Parish Oldham Parish Flixton Parish Eccles Parish and Ashton under-line Parish as by what was then printed and is yet extant is to be seen Further we wish you to take notice That in the forementioned Directions pag. 3. Direction 6. it is there thus ordained That all Parishes and places whatsoever as well priviledged places and exempt Jurisdictions as others be brought under the Government of Congregational Classical and National Assemblies Provided that the Chappels or places in the houses of the Peers of this Realm should continue free for the exercise of Divine Duties to be performed according to the Directory And also that it was ordered by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament Decemb. 21. 1646. That the several Classes in Lancashire should be one Province as appears by their Order to that purpose As there is also another Order of theirs of Octob. 16. 1648. enabling the several Classes within this Province to send their Delegates to meet in a Provincial Assembly in Preston and appointing the time of their first meeting the number of the Delegates that were to be sent to the said Assembly and the Quorum of the Assembly according to the provision that had been made before by the Parliament before any Provincial Assembly could by virtue of their Authority be enabled to act Provincially By which account thus given it is manifest That the setting up the Presbyterian Government in this County The division of it into several Classes The making of those Classes into a Province and their Acting Provincially As also the appointing this Classis to be the first that is the first in regard of the number onely the account beginning here was all done by Authority of Parliament And that when we call our selves the first Classis within the Province of Lancaster we are awarranted thereto by authority of Parliament And so your Saluting us in our own termes which we gave not to our selves till the Parliament had first given them to us will not seem strange to them that then did or now do acknowledge that Authority and Power which the Parliament exercised in those times Especially considering there was nothing done since either by that Parliament or any other or by his Highnesse and the late Parliament that takes from us what was then granted and as we shall clear further anon SECT II. IN your Preface to what in your Paper you have to say unto us there is in the first place a mistake of that title which was given by us unto ours which you call a Paper draught for it was not by us intituled a Presentation as you call it but a Draught that represented to the Provincial Assembly our apprehensions in a case by them propounded unto us And was approved by the Provincial under the Title of a Representation But this perhaps was but the mistake of the Scribe and we insist not on it It is of greater weight and moment to take notice of what you publish as your sense and apprehensions of it not resting in the judgement or determination of any general Council contrary thereunto if any such should be much lesse to one of our Provincial Assemblies Although you tell us we seem to submit to our Provincial what we will hardly grant to a general Council in which you professe to differ from us We know very well and have learned better from the Scriptures then to resolve our Faith into the determination of any company of men on Earth whatsoever or to build our Faith on the Judgement of Synods Provincial or National or of General Councils that have been heretofore or that may be hereafter We are sure all men are fallible and Faith that is a sure and certain Grace must have a sure and certain foundation which is onely the infallible and written Word of God And if this only be your meaning you have not us differing from you But yet when we consider That Synods and Councils rightly constituted and regularly called as they may be then of great use for light and guidance so also that they are the Ordinance of God and by him invested with authority and so have an authoritative Judgement belonging to them and which is not in private persons we dare not contemn them nor speak sleightly of them And seeing the higher Assemblies have greater Authority then the lower as there is more power in the whole then in the part in the whole body then in any one or some few members and that however we are well enough satisfied that we have the Authority of a Classe yet we are under the Authority of the Provincial Assembly We see not wherein we offended that we submitted our apprehensions in the Case propounded by that Assembly unto us unto their Judgment There is concerning matters of Religion Judicium Privatum or a Private Judgement and this belongs to all Christians who are to see with their own eyes and judge concerning what is necessary for them to know and believe in matters of this nature This Judgement as there is good reason why we should allow it to our selves so we should Lord it over mens consciences if we should deny it to any There is also Judicium Publicum Authoritativum A Publick and an Authoritative Judgement and this is either Concional which belongs to
thought fit c. And doe therefore-ordain a Committee therein particularly nominated in stead and place of Commissioners The groundlesnesse of the mistake about settling the Presbyterial Government for three years onely that might arise from the proviso in this Ordinance is so clear to any common understanding that the bare recital of the sum of the matter of this Ordinance and the ground of making it doth make it so fully to appear that it were but lost labour to use any more words about it But we have particularly mentioned all that ever passed the Parliament so farre as we have either seen or heard of that hitherto concerned Church Government untill the year 1648 When the form of Church Government to be used in the Church of England and Ireland was agreed upon by the Lords and Commons Assembled in Parliament after Advice had with the Assembly of Divines and was ordered by them to be printed August 19. of the said year 1648. And this Ordinance wherein all that had passed the Parliament before in parts and at several times and what ever was but temporary by vertue of other Ordinances so far as was intended for continuance are moulded up into a complete body with a supply of sundry things that had been never mentioned nor published before in other Ordinances is without any limitation of time for its continuance and remains unrepealed to this day for any thing we have seen or heard to the contrary Nay we think as we shall touch upon anon That by the humble Advice assented to by his Highnesse this Ordinance as well as others receives strength But by this full account given we think we have made it sufficiently to appear that we have had the Authority of the civil Magistrate to bear us out in what we have acted since the first setting up of the Presbyterian Government untill this present Except there be any that can come forth and charge us to have transgressed the rules appointed by the Parliament for us to observe in our actings against which our own innocency onely shall be our defence It now remaines for your further satisfaction and our own vindication that we recite some things particularly out of the form of Church Government which we conceive are thereunto subservient In the very first Words of the Ordinance according to what we have before recited in the directions for the electing and choosing of ruling Elders and is there also to be found you may find it thus Be it ordered and ordained by the Lords and Commons in Parliament Assembled and by Authority of the same That all Parishes and Places whatsoever within the Kingdom of England and Dominion of Wales as well Priviledged Places and exempted jurisdictions as others be brought under the Government of Congregational Classical Provincial and National Assemblies c. Whence it is to us unquestionable That by vertue of this appointment such as live within the bounds of our several Congregations and Parishes are under the power of some one or other of the Congregational Elderships constituted by Authority of Parliament within our several Parishes And that all those that live within the bounds of our Classis mentioned before are under the power of our Classical Assembly constituted in like manner by the said Authority What power is given particularly to the congregational Elderships you may finde in the aforesaid form of Church Government and unto which we refer you onely we shall minde you That by vertue thereof they have power as they shall see just occasion to enquire into the knowledge and spiritual estate of any member of the Congregation to admonish and rebuke to suspend from the Lords Table those who are found by them to be ignorant and scandalous and to excommunicate according to the rules and directions after following And it is thereby ordained That the Examination and Judgement of such Persons as shall for their ignorance in the points of Religion mentioned in that Ordinance not be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is to be in the power of the Eldership of every Congregation All which will appear by the expresse Letter of the said Ordinance to any that will consult it and which not onely justifies all that is practised in that case by the several Elderships but also shews what grounds this Classis had for that which was mentioned in our Paper touching both what is therein appointed to the Minister about Catechizing Families and also concerning the Ministers exhorting such as in the several Families he should finde to be of competent knowledge and know to be of blamelesse life That they should present themselves to the Eldership The Trial and Judgement in this case not belonging to any one Minister alone but to the Eldership There are also rules and directions given in this Ordinance to be observed by the several Elderships concerning suspension from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in cases of scandal which may be seen there particularly But there is no rule given that will allow either the Eldership or Classis according to the several powers to them therein granted either to warn before all or to excommunicate knowing and blamelesse men for their meer not presenting themselves before the Eldership The rules of this Government prescribe otherwise as we our selves must also needs professe that we are not conscious to our selves that we have given any just occasion by our management thereof That contrary to the expresse rules appointed therein to be observed by us and to the plain sense of the expressions used in our Paper of which afterward any such a thing should have been so much as supposed to have been intended from any thing there expressed Give us leave to proceed a little further to lay open the order that is prescribed in the above mentioned form of Church Government touching the order of proceeding to excommunication which as it will awarrant the publishing of mens names openly in the Congregation and warning them before all to reform being such as are justly censurable by the rules thereof and particularly where it prescribes that several publique admonitions shall be given to the offenders c. So it will awarrant us in any thing that is made censurabâ—e by that Paper of ours that was published To make this to appear as also to shew what reason we had to make known to the several congregations within our bounds what our paper held forth We shall here declare what offences are censurable with this greatest and last censure of Excommunication according to the order that is there prescribed and which as it requires that it be inflicted with great and mature deliberation and after all other good means have been essayed so it appoints in these expresse words That such Errours in practice as subvert the Faith or any other Errours which overthrow the power of Godlinesse if the party who holds them spread them seeking to draw others after him and such sins in practice as
Government continued such during the time of the late Prelacy which yet was taken away in other reformed Churches that the Pastors were deprived of that power of rule that our Church acknowledgeth did belong to them of right and which did anciently belong to them however the exercise thereof did after grow into a long disuse as hath been shewed before And therefore when we consider on the one hand that the superiority which the Bishop obtained at the first above the Presbyter in the ancient Church and which was rather obtained consueâ—udine Ecclesiae then by Divine right did at the length grow to that height that the Pastors were spoiled of all power of rule so we cannot much wonder on the other hand that the ruling Elder was quite turned out of doors For the proof of the being and exercise of whose office in the purer times there are notwithstanding produced testimonies of the ancients by Divines both at home and abroad that have written about that subject and to which we do therein refer you As there doe remain some footsteps and shadow of their office in the Church-wardens and Sides-men even to this day And so upon the whole the premisses considered and that we are commanded not to follow a multitude to do evil though it were of the best of men and that therefore the examples and practises though it were of whole Churches are to be no further a rule for us then they follow Christ and as their examples be approved of in the Word of Christ notwithstanding the univerfality and long continuednesse of such practises Whereas you say that you pray for the establishment of such Church Government as is consonant to the will of God and universal practise of primitive Churches we believe you might cut the matter a great deal shorter and say That you are for the establishing of that Government that is most consonant to the will of God revealed in the Scriptures and that the Word of God alone and on which onely Faith must be built and into which at last be resolved when other records of Antiquity that yet are not so ancient as it is have been searcht into never so much shall determine what that is and so those wearisome and endlesse disputes about what is the universal and constant practise of primitive Churches and which if it could be found out in any good measure of probability for the first 300. years after Christ could never yet be so farre issued as to be a sure bottom whereon our faith may safely rest may be cut off It being a most certain rule and especially in matters of faith that the Factum is not to prescribe against the Jus The Practice against the Right or what ought to be done And it being out of all question the safest course for all to bring all doctrines and practices to the sure and infallible Standard and Touchstone the Word of God alone And after you have more seriously weighed the matter and remember how you professe that in the matters you propose in your Pâ—per You rest not in the Judgement or determination of any general Council of the Eastern or Western Churches determining contrary to what you are perswaded is so fully warranted by the Word of God as well as by the constant practice of the Catholick Church although what that was were more likely to be resolved by a general Council then by your selves the proposal of having the Word of God alone to be the Judge of the Controversie about Church Government cannot we think in reason be deny'd by you And we with you shall heartily pray That that Church-Government which is most consonant to the will of God revealed in Scriptures might be established in these Lands Although we must also professe that we believe that that Government which is established by Authority and which we exercise is for the substantials of it this Government and which we judge also to be most consonant to the practice of the primitive Churches in the purest times And therefore as there was some entrance made by the late Parliament in regard of establishing this Government by ordinances as the Church Government of these Nations And as to the putting those Ordinances in execution there hath been some beginning in the Province of London the Province of this County and in some other places throughout the Land So when there shall be the opportunity offered we shall not be wanting by petitioning or otherwayes to use our best endeavours that it may be fully settled throughout these Lands that so we may not as to Government in the Church any longer continue as a City without wals and a Vineyard without an hedge and so to the undoing of our posterity endanger Religion to be quite lost And upon which consideration we do earnestly desire that all conscientious and moderate spirited men throughout the Land though of different principles whether of the Episcopal or Congregational way would bend themselves so far as possibly they can to accommodate with us in point of practice In which there was so good a progresse made by the late Assembly as to those that were for the Congregational way And as we think also all those that were for the lawfulnesse of submission to the Government of the late Prelacy as it was then exercised and that are of the Judgement of the late Primate of Ireland in his reduction of Episcopacy unto the form of Synodical Government mentioned before might doe if they would come up towards us so far as we judge their principles would allow them As we do also professe that however we cannot consent to part with the Ruling Elder unlesse we should betray the truth of Christ Rom. 12. 1 Cor. 12. 1 Tim. 5. as we judge and dare not give any like consent to admit of a moderate Episcopacy for fear of encroachments upon the Pastors right and whereof late sad experience lessons us to beware as we judge also that the superiority of a Bishop above a Presbyter in degree which some maintain is no Apostolical institution and so have the greater reason in that respect to caution against it Yet we do here professe we should so farre as will consist with our principles and the peace of our own consciences be ready to abate or tolerate much for peace sake That so at the length all parties throughout the Land that have any soundness in them in matters of faith and that are sober and godly though of different judgements in lesser matters being weary of their divisions might fall in the necks one of another with mutual embraces and kisses and so at last through the tender mercy of our God there might be an happy closure of breaches and restoring of peace and union in this poor unsettled rent and distracted Church to the glory of God throughout all the Churches SECT VII BUt now as to you and what follows in your Paper and in the mean season till this can be accomplished and
sonable and fit in respect of their people to desire the Assistance of some godly and discreet Persons of their respective Congregations c. And therefore as touching ruling Elders as there was a submission in the dayes of Episcopacy to Chancellours and Commissaries we conceive that moderate Episcopall men might admit these upon prudentiall grounds though they did not acknowledge the Jus divinum of their Office and which opinion of them notwithstanding our own perswasion we are far from imposing upon others and we do also hope that such as would make tryall of them would have occasion to bless God for those great helps that might be offered unto them by them both for the better acquainting them with the Conversations of their people as also for the guiding and governing of them As we do also further humbly conceive there might be such a proportioning of them for the number of them in the higher Assemblies that neither it might be burthensome to the Elders that might be delegated to such Assemblies when they are over many nor the Assemblies be disappointed for want of a Quorum of ruling Elders as sometimes they have been nor any occasion of fear given unto any that the Ministers might be over-voted by the Elders in matters of greatest weight and concernment which yet supposes a division betwixt the Ministers and Elders which in our own experience we have never met with And as touching a standing Moderator that some moderate Episcopall men are for we think their Consciences might he satisfied in the way of Moderators as they are in use with us we not discerning what can be urged by them as necessary to be transacted by him from Gods Word but it may be safely transacted by the Moderators of our Assemblies And as touching our Brethren of the Congregationall way we are sure moderate Episcopacy will be no expedient to bring them and us unto neerer Union but conceive that as the Assembly of Divines did long agon enter upon that Work of Accommodation with them so if that Work were reâ— assumed by the appointment and interposition of the Civil Magistrate through the blessing of God we hope it might be brought to such a conclusion not onely with them but also with those that are godly and moderate Spirited that are of the Episcopall way that without admittance of moderate Episcopacy that would not further it there might be an happy closure of breaches in this rent and torne Church all parties that have soundness and savour in them seeming to be weary of their Divisions and to earnestly thirst and pant after Union But we hope by this time the sober and judicious Reader is satisfied that we had some reason to caution against moderate Episcopacy as we did even where we profess our selves earnest for peace and that If you had considered things well you had no reason fully to expect that we should admit of that expedient which you propounded for an Accommodation which we for severall weighty reasons had expresly cautioned against But we have now done with what you propounded as the way wherein you expected fully we should have closed with you and shall now go on with you unto what follows wherein you declare your selves That they who disturb this closure and conjunction are the ruling Elders that yet were not only chosen out of the people but at the first constitution of the Congregational Elderships were examined and approved by this Class as fit to joyn with the Ministers of the Word in the governing of the Church and solemnly set a part with exhortation and Prayer for that Work although not ordained for to preach the Gospel or administer the Sacraments and so not meer Lay-men as you apprehend them to be Now of these you say you wish not with the Apostle that they were cut off but that they were taken away that trouble you for you say speaking of these onely they let that will let untill they be taken out of the away Indeed the Apostle unto whose words you allude speaks of something that letted and would let the revelation of Antichrist untill he were taken away and if after Antichrist hath been cast out of this Land the retaining of the ruling Elders were likely to be a let to his setting foot again in it it would be very ill upon that account to part with them but we do not discern how the retaining of the ruling Elders should have hindred your closure and conjunction with us if you had been cordiall for Peace and Union for though you could not admit them upon the divine right of their Office yet you who excepted not against the lawfulness of retaining of High Commissioners Chancellours and Commissaries and of which we shall speak more fully in our answer to your last Paper under the Prelaticall Government might have admitted of ruling Elders on prudentiall grounds upon the Principles of sundry moderate Episcopall men and as they have done of which before and as you may see one zealous enough against the Jus divinum of ruling Elders Office is not against them as an expedient and behoovefull Order in the Church and where the right Governours of State any where moving upon prudentiall grounds shall find the conveniency of them See Velitationes Polemicae by J. D. quaest 3. Touching Lay-Presbyters Sect. 30. But you now mind us of what we had said in our Answer scil That we could not consent to part with the ruling Elders except we should betray the truth of Christ Rom. 12. 1 Cor. 12. 1 Tim. 5. and for further testimony you say we refer you to some modern Authors all of Yesterday Here we shall desire you to take notice of two things 1. That being the Authors we referred you unto were reverend learned and able Divines such as was the Synod or Assembly of Divines that met at Westminster by Authority of Parliament and the Provinciall Synod of London besides the Divines that we did particularly nominate they should not have been slighted by you who profess you reverence Synods and Councels in regard of their testimony because they were but of Yesterday For upon this account all Synods and Councels that shall hereafter be convened must be rejected 2. That it was not their meer testimony or authority that we pressed you with We referred you to them in regard of their Arguments and Reasons they urged for what they assert And we think both you and we may learn much from the learned and elaborate Labours of modern Authors And that we are not to disdain to weigh what they present because they are but of Yesterday Else you must neither consult Doctor Vsher Doctor Andrews nor Doctor Hammond whom you mention nor any other moderate Writers that yet we judge are in some esteem with you but betake your selves to the Fathers onely And because you took not notice of what the Authors we referred you to have touching the Jus divinum of the Presbyterian Government and which
is proved from the grounds already layd For this Jurisdiction of theirs above Presbyters did not belong unto them by Divine Right we having proved that the Scripture makes a Bishop and a Presbyter to be both one And therefore the Parliament that by Law gave them their power might seeing just cause for it by Law take it away They had also just reason for to take it away in regard of the oppressiveness and burthensomness of it both to Ministers and People to this whole Church and Nation as hath been proved before And therefore what they herein did was justly yea piously and prudently done and for which the Church of God in this Land both Ministers and People do for the present and will for the future see great cause to bless God for many Generations And that they had the concurrence herein of a reverend and learned Assembly of Divines is clear from their Exhortation annexed to the Ordinance of Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament with Instructions for taking the League and Covenant in the Kingdome of England and Dominion of Wales In this Exhortation of the Assembly of Divines in answer to some Objections they apprehended might be made against the taking of the Covenant they thus express themselves If it be sayd for the extirpation of Prelacy to wit the whole Hierarchiall Government standing as yet by the known Laws of the Kingdome is new and unwarrantable This will appear to all impartiall understandings though new to be not onely warrantable but necessary if they consider to omit what some say that this Government was never formally established by any Laws of this Kingdome at all that the very life and soul thereof is already taken from it by an Act passed this present Parliament so as like Jezabels Carkass of which no more was left but the Skull the Feet and the Palmes of her hands nothing of Jurisdiction remains but what is precarious in them and voluntary in those who submit unto them That their whole Government is at best but a humane Constitution and such as is found and adjudged by both Houses of Parliament in which the Judgment of the whole Kingdome is involved and declared not onely very perjudicial to the civil State but a great hinderance also to the perfect reformation of Religion Yea who knoweth it not to be too much an Enemy thereunto and destructive to the power of Godliness and pure administration of the Ordinances of Christ which moved the well-affected almost throughout this Kingdome long since to petition this Parliament as hath been desired before in the reign of Queen Elizabeth and King James for a total abolition of the same And then a little after And as for these Clergy-men who pretend that they above all other cannot covenant to extirpate that Government because they have as they say taken a solemn Oath to obey the Bishops in licitis honestis they can tell if they please that they that have sworne Obedience to the Laws of the Land are not thereby prohibited from endeavouring by all lawfull means the abolition of those Laws when they prove inconvenient or mischievous And yet if there should any Oath be found into which any Ministers or others have entred not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land in this case they must teach themselves and others that such Oathes call for repentance not pertinacy in them Thus far the Assembly of Divines in their Exhortation for the taking the solemne League and Covenant and which we have thought requisite to transcribe that so it may appear how fully they concurred with the Parliament in what they did touching the abolition of Episcopacy as it doth also confirme by their Testimony severall things that have been mentioned by us wherein the Reader may perceive their concurrence in Judgment with us From all which it is clear that seeing Diocesan Bishops did but obtaine that Jurisdiction they exercised over Presbyters by the Law of the Land and Canon of the Church The Parliament finding this Government of Episcopacy to be very oppressive to this Church A great hinderance to the perfect Reformation of Religion and prejudiciall to the civill State they might both lawsully and laudably being therein also backed with the advice of a reverend and learned Synod take it away And hence it will follow that if the Ministers of this Land for severing themselves from the Bishops and with-drawing their Canonicall Obedience from them as some speake the Parliament according to the reverend Synod having before taken away from them all that Jurisdiction over Presbyters that did belong unto them must needs be accused of Schisme It is a good Schisme yea a blessed Schisme to use the words that Gerhard did defending the Protestants with-drawing from the Pope and the Church of Rome that they will be found to be guilty of The blot whereof as it is not to be much regarded so it is easily wiped off and as we think it is already done in the Eyes of all impartiall and unbyassed Readers by these Considerations which we have layd down We have onely one thing more to add which is the third generall Head we offer to the Reader here before we leave this first Argument with which you would perswade us to returne againe to our former Yoke of Bondag 3. For we offer it to the consideration of all impartiall men whether considering what hath been spoken touching the nature of Schisme in the generall and how lawfully and laudably the Parliament did abolish Episcopacy and how they passed by Ordinance the forme of Church-Government Anno 1648. establishing the Presbyterian in roome of the Episcopall and that how it was set up in this County by their Authority If they but observe what your actings have been and what your expressions are in your Papers they will not thereupon see just cause to impute Schisme taken in the worst part and as it is taken most usually unto you who have been so forward though without reason to fasten this blot upon us But we are sure during the prevalency of Episcopacy those that were not guilty of any such disturbance of the peace of the Church by any such boisterous Ventings of the Distempers of their Spirits as you are were counted and called by the Prelates Schismaticks And from which Aspersion though sundry of those being peaceable and godly however Non-conformists were free yet you being very unlike them are not thereby quit But we have now done with the first of those Arguments we promised to speak to particularly whereby you would perswade us to admit againe of Episcopacy and hope we have sayd to it that which is sufficient 2. We therefore now come to the second wherein you still rise higher for therein you insinuate a thing of a farre greater and more dangerous consequence if Episcopacy be not restored For you intimate that it is necessary That the Church of God may be continued amongst us from Age to Age to the
Ministry are sufficiently secured in the non-admission of Episcopacy and which we have also before proved tends not to secure the Church or Ministry but to inthrall both and bring them under bondage And now as touching the next Argument you use we are sure there is no need of Episcopacy that the Word of God might be firmly fixed among us but rather we say That the danger of its removall Westward hinted to you lately by one of the reverend Pastors of the Church of Manchester would by the admitting of it be encreased considering how many godly painefull Ministers were silenced by the Prelates and driven into America of later times and so hereupon there would be danger that the Word of God that is now on the Tiptoes ready to remove if God of his infinite mercy prevent it not should presently take its flight from us and be gone being sent unto a people that would bring forth better Fruit then we have done or then this will be found to be to take in Prelacy againe and that in time of peace after we had in the dayes of our Affliction according to our solemne Covenant cast it forth Now whereas you add that you should by our accepting of your Motions have been happily freed from the trouble of any further rejoynder unto our Answer Which otherwise as you say you must do amongst other considerable reasons to take off our Government from that establishment of Authority upon the proof whereof the most considerable part as to the bulke of our Answer doth insist We shall here onely mind you of some few particulars 1. Though we shall not take advantage of words yet when you tell here of a Rejoynder to be made to our Answer from which you should have been freed if we had closed with your Proposals we do not conceive you speak properly For your first Paper was your Bill of Complaint which we answered and to one part whereof you reply in this Paper in way of tender of some tearms of agreement which because not accepted of by us you reply to our Answer more particularly in you next This did concerne you to have minded who carp at words that we used in our Answer though as we shall shew when we come to it without any cause 2. You here say That the most considerable part of our Answer as to the bulke doth insist upon the proof of the establishment of our Government by Authority and this you say againe and againe in your next Paper though without any shew of truth as when we come to examine that Paper we shall there manifest 3. You by this close intimating or rather Threatnings that if we did not come up to your Proposalls you must be put to the trouble of a Rejoynder as you speak amongst other considerable reasons to take off our Government from the establishment of Authority that we lay claime to And having told us in your first Paper That it concerned us to look to it whether we had not run our selves into a Premunire gave us sufficient reason as we believe all candid Readers will judge to put you upon the work to unvalid our civill Function and which is all that in your Advertisement to the Reader you can charge us with as that which ministred any occasion of provocation and which it seems was so great after you had recived that Answer that in your next Paper even after you had slept upon it it breaks forth into a flame But we should have judged you a great deale more happy if you had never put your selves upon the trouble of such a Rejoynder as you call it considering what unquietness and distemper of Spirit you do there discover as every Reader may easily conceive that if from our Answer to your first Paper you conceived some hopes of an amicable and friendly agreement of differences and as you profess in your Advertisement to the Reader you did you had no just cause given you to conceive from those verball exceptions against the last passage of your Reply that we gave you as you there speak nor from the Work we put you on which you there mention that we intended not any friendly treaty with you in order to such a Composure Although we must needs confess that if you conceived hopes of agreement with us upon the tearmes you here propound you were therein much mistaken they being those very things we expresly cautioned against in our Answer as we have said before having also fully shewed your further great mistake when you appehended we quoted Dr. Vsher as our owne man or an Vmpire and Composer of differences betwixt us as likewise hath been declared before Although we must still say that Dr. Vsher doth Patronize whatever we quoted him for And this may be a sufficient Answer both to the last passage in this Paper and likewise to what you have in your Advertisement to the Reader which is subjoyned to it But we have thus finished our Answer to this Paper wherein we have been purposely the larger upon some Points that they being here more fully discussed as occasion was offered when the things you have here hinted shall come againe to be mentioned in your next Paper this our Answer to them once for all may suffice The third and last Paper that was presented to us by certain Gentlemen and others within the bounds of our Association To the first Classe at Manchester within the Province of Lancaster these SECT I. Though we could not but take notice of the prolixity of your last answer in writing yet we gave you an acknowledgment of your civility so far as it related to us and hoped you would have closed with us in a happy and amicable union and composure of all differences amongst us in the Church of God here you pretending so cordially to desire it and we condescending to come so near even as it were to your own tearms But oh that there had been such a heart in you then had you spared us the pains of this Rejoynder to your long Answer made longer through that needless and tedious discourse of yours concerning the civil sanction of the Presbyterian government And though in the very Preface you say your leasure will not permit you to spend time about impertinencies its wonder to think how quickly you forget your selves for you no sooner have said it but straightway fall in hand to prove this Thesis viz. That your Church government is established by the Law of this Land and to stuff your Paper with the recitall of sundry Orders and Ordinances of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament c. which takes up many pages throughout your paper Which as it was no Question of ours but started now by you we shall not here take the pains to reply to but defer it till anon Though we crave leave to tell you you have hereby started more doubts then you can assoyle and said more then you have as
of them arise from your unacquaintedness with the rule we walk by Although we were not to be blamed for any mistakes that might arise ab ignorantia juris whether simple or affected that we determine not but leave yâ—u to judge Before we come to make answer more particularly to what follons we are willing to be at some pains to give you some farther account of the power we are awarranted by the civill Authority for to exercise To what Persons within our bounds it extends it self c. Much pains you have taken and that willingly and spent much time and Paper too which hath swelled your Answer to so great a bulk to prove that which was not oppugned nor so much as quest oned by us so Impertinent to the business of our Paper Though you have said you are not willing to spend time about Impertinencies By which however we go on yet you wheel about and are come to the Pole you first started at like a Horse in a mill that travels all day and is no further at night then he was in the morning You went about to prove your Government established by civil Authority the first work you took in hand you are no further yet but going about to prove out of your way quite But since you compell us to follow you a mile we will walk with you twain till we have conducted you if possible into the good old Way again by taking of your Government from that establishment of Authority upon the proof whereof the most considerable part as to the bulk of your Answer doth insist To prove your Presbyterian Government to be established by Law and to be warranted by the civil Authority you produce severall Orders and Ordinances but one more especially you instance of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament bearing date the 10th August 1648. Which you say is without any limitation of time and remains unrepealed to this day nay more by the humble Advice assented unto by his Highness it receives strength To which we answer when you speak of a Government establisht by Law we hope you mean such as hath the force and strength of a Law to binde the free born People of this Nation otherwayes you say nothing If such a Law you mean then we much question whether your Ordinance of Lords and Commons though unrepealed to this day be of that force and seeing we be no Lawyers we shall not take upon us the determination of that point but refer you in that particular to the Judgement and resolution of the Sages of the Law who affirm that nothing can have the force of a Law to binde the people without the concurrent consent of the three Estates in Parliament My Lord Cooke is most full throughout his works published by the speciall appointment of that long Parliament Hear you him For the Parliament concerning making and enacting of Laws consists of the King the Lords spiritual and temporall and the Câ—mmons and it is no Act unless it be made by the King the Lords and Commons Again If an Act be made by the King and Commons this binds not for it is no Act of Parliament Ibid. Again It is no Act of Parliament but an Ordinance and therefore binds not 4th part Instit fol 23. Again Nothing can pass as a Law without the Kings râ—yal assent and authority to binde the people 3d part Instâ—â— fol. 9. See him also again in his Instit 4th part fol 232. where he cites severall Charters and Ordinances made in the behalf of the Court of Stannâ—ries and in the end saith These things were done de facto bâ—t let us â—â—rn our selves to that which hath the force of a Law And in the same 4th part cap. 73. of the Courts of forrests fol. 293. see there a prescription good against a Statute of Ed. 3. cap. 2. because it was made but in affirmance of the common Law of the Forrest and against such a Statute a man may prescribe And good also against the Ordinance of 34. E. 1. and the onely reason given is because it was but an Ordinance and no Statute An Ordinance of both Houses is no Law of the Land by their own confession meaning the Parliament saith Judge Jenkins 1 part Coll. Ordinances fol. 728. This was the onely Law stood in force and binding which was made by the concurrent consent of alâ— in the judgement of these Sages and was called the Law of the Land None else in old time was judged valid or to have the force and strength of a Law Nor at this day will any Ordinance of one or both Houses be judged valid without his Highness assent thereunto as we humbly conceive But admitting Ordinances of one or both Houses of Parliament without the Kings of old or his Highness assent of late to have aâ— great a force and strength in them and to be as valid to all intents and purposes as if their assents were given thereto Yet this we affirm of your Ordinance setling Presbyterian Government throughout the Kingdom of England and Dominion of Wales That it is made of little or no force at this day in respect of those severall subsequent Acts granting liberty to all pious and conscientious Christians throughout this Land to serve God in their own way of worship and disclpline notwithstanding any Law or Ordinance to the contrary which though they amount not to an express yet at least to an implicite Repeal of your Ordinance so far as it is contrary to this Liberty for Leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant But stand you upon an express Repeal Then be pleased to peruse an Act made Anno 1650. for Relief of Religious and peaceable people from the rigour of former Acts of Parliament in matters of Religion And to peruse a little better the humble Advice by you in your Answer alledged and you will finde it far otherwise than you say In the eleventh Section All Ministers throughout the Land and their Assemblies professing the true Protestant Christian Religion though of different judgement in Worship or Discipline are all of them equally protected in the liberty of their profession Have you liberty to exercise your Church Government amongst your selves They as much Have you protection Others as much What power have you that others have not Are these within the bounds of your Association and subject to your Government unless they will renounce their Baptism and Christianity Nay they have their way of Worship and Protection in that way granted them as well as you And as they may not revile or reproach nor disturb you in your Assemblies no more may you them in their Assemblies nor compell any by censures or penalties to submit to your Government Is there a Presbyterian Government so setled by Ordinance as to compell any contrary to this Liberty Reade the Act of 1650. abovesaid and you shall finde an express Repeal Reade also the close of this Section and you shall finde
an express Repeal of it there also in these words All Laws Statutes Ordinances and Clauses in any Law Statute and Ordinance so far as they are contrary to the aforesaid Liberty be repealed Doth not this take from you what you may conceive was granted by former Ordinances Doth your Presbyterian Government for all your Glosses upon it receive strength from hence Doth the Ordinance of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament for setling Presbyterian Government throughout the Land remain yet unrepealed for any thing you have seen or heard to the contrary Yea so you affirm and would have us credit you The Animadversions of the Class upon it 1 IN the first place you charge us that our professions and expressions for peace and unity were not as cordial and real as yours but how is this proved scil because in that answer we gave to your second Paper we put you upon the invalidateing the civil sanction for our Government being before warned by you of not running our selves into a praemunire But let the Reader judge what incivility or unsatisfactoriness there was in this answer or whether there was any thing that did not become cordial wishers of peace and unity godly sober and moderate spirited men as we do not only pretend but hope to approve our selves to be both to God and men If it be indeed inconsistent with either an hearty desire of unity and peace or with godliness and sobriety to insist upon the authority of that Parliament that was instrumental for our freedome from Prelatical bondage and that setled the Government wherein we have acted and that doth fully awarrant us for whatever we have acted therein and to insist upon this authority when we were challenged as transgressors in making Laws and Edicts contrary to the Laws in force then we must confess we pretended only to be for peace and unity when in our hearts we were not real for it But as our own consciences accuse us not of dissembling professing that which we never intended so we believe whatever your censures of us be others will be more equal judges then to say the answer we gave to your first Paper was any evidence thereof and such as know what some of you were in time past will rather conclude that the urging the authority of Parliament for the setling of our Government and the awarranting of our actings was that indeed which you could not brook Secondly But as you judge our answer to your second Paper was uncivill and not suitable to that moderation we made profession of so still you will have the answer we gave unto your first to be full of darkness although even as you here represent it it is very plain to any ordinary understanding to hold forth thus much that because the mistakes we saw you had run into might perhaps some of them arise from your unacquaintedness with the rule we walk by although we said we were not to be blamed for any mistake that might arise ab ignorantiâ juris i. e. in you as the whole tenour of the discourse shewes and therefore we added whether simple or affected that we determined not but left it to you to judge of who were most fit to be judges in a matter of that nature you therein knowing your own hearts best we were willing to be at some pains to acquaint you with it This we desire might be taken notice of because what is here manifestly our meaning even from your own representation is afterwards most grosly perverted by you for you would make the world to believe that we assert such an absurd position as this that we were not to be blamed for our ignorance of the Law and then cry out of it as a strange saying But you did warily forbear the imputing any such thing to us here where our words are too plain to be so wrested and reserve this for another place hoping the Reader would by that time he came thither have forgotten what you had here represented us to have said and there take the matter wholly upon trust from you believing us to be so farre devoid of reason as you would there make us to be But this is but a small part in comparison of the injury you do us yet we desire you might see it that you might not hereafter be charged with it by him that is to be the supream Judge betwixt you and us at the great day Thirdly As touching the pains that we have taken and of which you do here again complain as having swelled our answer to so great a bulk yea so as that the most considerable part thereof as to the bulk insists thereon as you say scil to prove our Presbyterian Government to be warranted by the civil anthority and which you say was not by you oppugned nor so much as questioned by you as also touching your judging this discourse to be impertinent we referre the Reader unto what we have already said in the sixth seventh eighth and ninth Animadversions on the first Section of this Paper as also to what we mind him of in the first Animadversion on the third Section thereof by perusal of all which he will find how much you forgot your selves when you come over and over again with such assertions they having in them no more shew of truth then only to evidence that it is wearisome to you to hear of Ordinances of Parliament especially such as are for the setling of the Presbyterian Government or what makes for our own necessary vindication and to manifest that our actings in the management of that Government have been regular and orderly according to the forme of Church-Government appointed by authority and to see that we took off that Objection that is commonly made against the Presbyterian Government as being established by the Parliament but for three yeares only and unto which purposes all the Orders or Ordinances of Parliament or Rules by them given and by us recited tended and all which in the fourth Section of it to which the complaint here refers takes not up above four leafes of our answer which yet in your Preface your selves say is seven sheets Fourthly But what you cannot make out with any colour of truth you hope to do by scoffs and jeers and therefore you say we wheel about and are come to the pole we first started at like an horse in a mill that travels all day and is no further at night then he was in the morning in which also there is as little truth as in your other assertions we having already shewed that our first essay was to give you some account how the termes when we called this the first Class within the Province of Lancaster which you had called ours were no other then the Parliament had given us by their Order That which we attempted in the fourth Section of our answer to which you here reply was to shew that the Ordinances of Parliament for the
Presbyterian Government were still in force and that those rules laid down in them awarranted all our actings and particularly what we had published in our several Congregations in our Paper and which whosoever doth not so start at because they are Ordinances of Parliament but that he keeps in his right mind he will see to be different things But you do still go on with your flowts and will needs have it to be that we went about to prove which is your own phrase and not ours our Government to be established by civill authority the first work we took in hand and that we are no further yet but going about to prove your own phrase again as if the matter must needs be as you say it is or therefore true because you represent it to be so after a scoffing manner Fifthly And when you have thus pleased your selves with your taunting expressions you now would profess to do us a kindness being willing to conduct us if possible into the good old way again by taking off our Government from the establishment of authority upon the proof whereof as you say so great a part of our answer doth insist But seeing the way you herein go as will appear anon doth quite overthrow all other Ordinances of Parliament as well as those that are for the establishment of the Presbyterian Government you must excuse us though upon your most earnest entreaty we dare not follow you in this your way being wâ—ll assured we should be then indeed out of our way quite Sixthly But now you come to answer to the Orders and Ordinances of Parliament by uâ—recited and so to the Ordinance of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament Aug 29. 1648 establishing the forme of Church Government to be used in the Church of England and Ireland and which remaines as we said unrepealed to this day and receives strength by the humble Advice assented to by his late Highness and which Ordinance was by us more especially insisted on But what is it that you alleadge to take away the strength of any Ordinance of Parliament that we made mention of in our answer In the first place you tell us that when we speak of a Government established by Law you hope we mean such as hath the strength and force of a Law to bind the free born people of this Nation and thereupon you question whether our Ordinance of the Lords and Commons though unrepealed to this day be of that force and touching this you referre us to the judgement and resolution of the Sages of the Law affirming that nothing can have the force of a Law to bind the people without the concurrent consent of the three estates in Parliament and you instance particularly in the Lord Cook and several passages in his Institutes In answer unto all which we must needs in the first place as we did in our answer to your first Paper apologize for our selves that being no Lawyers we shall not take upon us to determine any Law case and that our cause in this particular were fitter to be pleaded by the learned in the Law that have farre better abilities for it then we have only till some of these undertake in this particular to plead for us we hope we may be allowed freely to speak for our selves And here we shall not say all that we could much less what persons better able to deal in an argument of this nature might But that which we shall say is first something in the general then we shall proceed to answer more particularly In the generall we say two things 1. That if the Ordinances of Parliament for Church Government be of no force because there was not the concurent consent of three Estates to the making of them then all Ordinances of Parliament without exception of any are null and void and of no force to binde the people as well as those that concern Church Government and so it concerns all Committees that have been throughout the Land and those that have acted under them or do yet act and all Judges and Justices that have acted or do act upon any Ordinance of Parliament to consider what they have to say to what you do here alledge against their proceedings as well as against ours Nay then the Act made Anno 1650 for Relief of Religious and peaceable People that yet is afterwards much insisted on by you is of no force for to that questionless there was not the concurrent consent of three Estates in Parliament 2. That the Parliament themselves who made these Ordinances declared That the King having not onely withdrawn himself from the Parliament but leavied war against it salus populi was suprema Lex and thereupon by Ordinance of ParliameÌ„t they proceeded to settle the affairs both of Church and State without his consent yea and to repeal some former acts and as they did expresly when they passed the Ordinance for the Directory for Worship repealing the Acts of Parliament that had been passed formerly for the Book of Common Prayer as appears by their Ordinance for that purpose of Jan. 3d 1644. And also when they passed another Ordinance Octob. 9. 1646. for the abolishing of Arch-Bishops and Bishops within the Kingdom of England and Dominion of Wâ—les by which they are expresly disâ—nabled to use or put in ure any Archiepiscopall or Episcopall jurisdiction or authority by force of any Letters Pattents from the Crown made or to be made or by any other authority whatsoever any Law Statute usage or custome to the contrary notwithstanding as appears from the very words of that Ordinance And if we forget not it was by them in those times further declared That however the King had withdrawn his Person from the Parliament yet his Royall Authority could not be withdrawn But we know that what the Parliament in those dayes acted in the passing those and such like Ordinances was approved by the Sages of the Law that in those times adhered to the Parliament And this will now lead us to return our more particular answer to what you present for to take away the obliging force of Ordinances of Parliament And therefore 1. We say That that long Parliament as you call it who did so much honour the Lord Cook as to publish his Works by their special appointment did so well understand him that they were well assured there was not any thing in them that condemned their proceedings as illegal as on the contrary we do thereupon conceive that if he had been alive in those times he would have justified them And further we say under correction that all youalledg out of him was and is to be understood in cases ordinary not as it was in the times when the Ordinances for Church Government and other Ordinances for the setling the affairs of the Nation were passed when the King had withdrawn himself from the Parliament and levyed war against it 2. But to add some further confirmation
been designed for the ends even now mentioned as well as for the necessary vindication of our selves and the Governement the truth and waies of Christ shall be so farre blessed by God as to bring you to a sense of what you have much offended God and the Church in and to be ashamed thereof we shall much rejoyce But if otherwise we shall yet have comfort in this that we have discharged our duty toward you in labouring to reduce you and shall commit what further worke may be called for from us unto Him who will own his servants in the management of whatsoever he sets them about And thus having finished our Answer to your two last Papers and been at the pains once more to spread before you what however you esteem thereof others we hope will judge sufficient for the satisfaction of those that are willing to be satisfied we shall now apply our selves to what concerns us to practice in pursuance of what we published in our Congregations and is now made known to the world not questioning but all wise and sober persons will judge that if to take us off our worke and businesse you should assault us again after the same manner as hitherto you have done it will not be fit we should hereafter interrupt our more necessary and profitable imployments in the returning any further Answer to you vvho may perhaps be ambitious to have the last vvord but that rather it will be prudence in us to slight that which having no weight in it vvill of it self vanish away Signed in the name and by the appointment of the Class by Robert Constantine Moderator At the first Class within the Province of Lancaster at Manchester Novemb. the 23. 1658. A brief tast of the spirit the Gentlemen discover in their Papers in these following expressions amongst many others In the Preface QUi unam patitur injuriam invitat novam 'T is a certain rule with the men of this perswasion if you take a blow from them on one cheek you cannot be Christians in their Calendar unles you turn the other also The Gyant of Presbytery The Palladium that would preserve the City of God 'T is a trouble to us that men who impropriate to themselves the name of Saints and would have the world to think them the only Christians They are still of the old legall spirit to radicate and destroy all that are not of their way In their third Paper Such godly and sober such moderate spirited men as you pretend to be Sect. 4. You wheel about and are come to the pole you started at like a Horse in a Mill that traviles all day and is no further at night then he was in the morning Ibid. For this all parties hiss you and laugh you to scorne Sect. 5. Have you two hearts and not one forhead Ibid. Who can forbeare laughter to see Scripturists under the Gospell as those under the Law Templum Domini Templum Domini cry verbum Domini verbum Domini nothing but Scripture the word of God being there the only rule of Faith and manners Sect. 6. Void of all modesty and shewing thereby no great store either of learning or honesty Ibid. You wrest the Scriptures which St Peter complaines of with expositions and glosses newly coyned to make them speake what they never meant This wresting of Scripture Dr. Andrews taxeth the Papists withall saying Malus hic Cardinalium mos and we as truely Malus hic Presbyterorum mos rem facias rem si possis rectè si non quo cunque moderem Sect. Ibid. 6. The London Ministers the Provinciall Synod at London Rutherford and Gillespie they call moderne Authors of yesterday and adde they may serve your turnes amongst the ignorant and vulgar sort wbo measure all by tale and not by weight when others that know what and who many of them are will conclude you draw very neare the dreggs Sect. 8. Your Elderships short and blunt sword of excommunication Sect. 10. But oh the learned Criticks of our age Sect. 11. Apage Sect. 16. Ha ha he Ibid. Thus you say because very shame will not suffer you to affirme the contrary Ibid. Why do you seek to colour over your actions with so many weake sensless and unheard of descants upon Nouns and Pronouns to evade what still you practice but are ashamed to own Ibid. This even this is the modest examination of the dissenting Christians mentioned in their Title Page FINIS Ezra Chap. 4. throughout Neh. 4. 7 8. Act. 4. 27. Mar. 28. 19. Rev. 12. 12. Dan. 11. 35. Jam. 1. 2 3. 1 Pet. 1. 6 7. and 4. 12. Rev. 13. 10. See the Ordinance of Lords and Commons Assembled in Parliament with instructions for the taking the League and Covenant in the Kingdome of England and Dominion of Wales Zach 4. 9. Plautus Tacitus Appion Plutarch Plinie Seneca Tacitus * Alterig famam maledictis laedere * Prov. 18. 17. a Classicall Records At Manchester June the 9th 1657. from the Provinciall Assembly The sense of this Assembly being that there may be something of duty incumbent upon Ministers and also upon Congregationall Elderships to be done in relation to all the severall persons of ripe years within their respective charges who do either voluntarily and customarily refuse to communicate with them in the Lords Supper or to offer themselves to the Eldership or Minister of the place to be tryed and admitted to it upon approvall or upon tryall or knowledg are judged at present unfit for it or with whose competency in knowledg or the conscientious walking os them they are unacquainted or doubtful for their help in their spirituall state and bringing them to a capacity of and willingness unto the publick Communion which they stand off from by way of particular addresse to them which yet is not ordinarily done It is therefore resolved that the question what may be their duty in particular in the said matter and what the meanes of performing it be referred to the serious consideration of every Minister in this Province severally and of every Classicall Presbytery joyntly and their judgment therein may be given by themselves or sent by their respective delegates to the next Provinciall meeting Edw. Lee. b Classicall Records Aug. 11. 1657. the Order from the Provinciall Assembly to be considered the next Classieall meeting c Classicall Records Sept. 8. 1657. A representation drawn up up by this Class to be taken in unto and submitted to the judgment of the Provinciall Synod in order to the matter commended by the former Synod to the consideration of the severall Ministers within this Province was read and agreed unto by this Class d Classicall Records Novemb. 10. 1657. The exhortation from this Class approved on by the Assembly at Preston to be published in the severall Congregations belonging to this Class the 22th of Novemb. Instant e Classicall Records Jan. 12. 1657. A Paper presented to the Class by Major Prestwich Esq Nicholas