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parliament_n	army_n	city_n	london_n	3,465	5	7.2357	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A62864	Anti-pædobaptism, or, The third part being a full review of the dispute concerning infant baptism : in which the arguments for infant baptism from the covenant and initial seal, infants visible church membership, antiquity of infant baptism are refelled [sic] : and the writings of Mr. Stephen Marshal, Mr. Richard Baxter ... and others are examined, and many points about the covenants, and seals and other truths of weight are handled / by John Tombes.	Tombes, John, 1603?-1676.	1657 (1657)	Wing T1800; ESTC R28882	1,260,695	1,095

being opposed to giving saving faith and no person said to be hardned but he that wants saving faith and he that wants being hardned though hee should have historical so that if hardning be a privation of both yet it hath its denomination onely from the privation of saving faith And for Mr Bls. reason hee would have me consider first the conclusion of it is not to the present point For if the Jewes might not bee said to fall from a saving faith yet their unbelief mentioned Rom. 11.30 might bee and was a privation not onely of historical faith but also a saving else Mr. Bl. must say they had a saving faith though not historical which is a palpable absurdity for then a person may have a saving faith and not an historical and the unbelieving Jewes had a saving faith and consequently the shewing mercy must bee not onely a conferring an historical faith but also a saving 2. The ma●or is not true universally taken All that which the Jews to this time want is that from which they fell For they want their Temple sac●ifi●es Priesthood c. and yet they fell not from them Third the argument is thus retorted That which the Jewes to this time want is that from which they fell let Mr. Bl. take that into considera●ion But to this day they want even a saving faith Ergo they fell from a saving faith Such ill hap hath Mr. Bls. arguing yet as one whose fingers did itch to bee dealing with mee hee scribbles further Whereas I alledged Ephes. 2.12 to prove the unbelief of the Gentiles in times past mentioned Rom 11.30 was not onely a privation of historical but also of saving faith Mr. Bl. puts these frivolous questions to mee Were they not without a dogmatical ●aith Were they not aliens and strangers so much as from the Commonwealth of Israel To which I answer they were and ask him Whether they were not without a saving faith And if so the shewing mercy is opposed to the no● giving a saving faith and Mr. Bls. position most absurd that the faith here to wit Rom 11.20 where alone the word faith is used in that Chapter is historical and not saving Mr. Bl. adds And though in some sense every regenerate professing Christian is without CHRIST without God without hope respective to saving fruition and acceptable communion with him yet that text is manifestly abused when it is applied to any of Christian profession The whole must be carried on in a due application of it Gentiles in the flesh aliens from the Common-wealth of Israel Answ. Though I finde no emendation of it in Mr. Bls. Table of Errata yet I do conceive regenerate is printed for unregenerate otherwise the speech were more grosly false then I shall imagine Mr. Bl. would thus deliver And it beeing so I conceive no abuse of it to have applied it to meer visible professors of Christianity among the Gentiles if the words were added to it which Mr. Bl. would have joyned For they were Gentiles in the flesh aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel without Christ without God without hope Nevertheless I know not what this makes to infringe my inference from Ephes. 2.12 to prove the unbelief Rom. 11.30 to have been a privation of saving faith Master Bl. denies not this sense of the words that the Ephesians in their infidelity were without Christ without God without hope respective to saving fruition and acceptable communion with him and sure they that were thus were without saving faith except Mr. Bl. imagine they had a saving faith who had not so much as an historical Nor is it denied the same state to bee described Rom. 11.30 which is described Ephes. 2.12 and therefore my inference stands notwithstanding this passage of Mr. Bl. He further saith And for his observation that it occasioned the Apostles exclamation O altitudo O the depth c. v. 33. Sure the goodness of God bringing the Gentiles who were dogs Matth. 15.26 unto the glory of children and the severity of God in casting out the children of the Kingdome Matth. 8.12 might well occasion this exclamation in the Apostle as he had called to behold the goodness and severity of God on them which fell severity but towards the Gentiles goodness He might well cry out upon the greatest turne of providence that ever the world saw which in ages past had beene hid and the Angels desired to looke into O the depth c. Answ. True but was this goodness or severity in respect of a meer visible Churchstate or was it not also in respect of their state in the invisible Church Sure the thing had not been so admirable if it had not been in respect of the later as well as the former and Writers and Preachers usually apply it to silence the objection against absolute election and reprobation concerning their everlasting state as if it imported unmercifulness and injustice incompetent to God and it seems so like the passage Rom. 9.19 20 21 22 23 24. that me thinks if Mr. Bl. did compare them he should judge both places meant of the same thing and which i● an irrefragable argument it is clear Rom. 11.33 hath reference to what he said before v. 11 12. which is manifestly meant of their estate of salvation and reprobation and therefore must be so meant v. 33. What Mr. Bl. adds concerning my speech about Mr. G. and the Assembly is through mistake as if I had censured Mr. G. as like Plautus his miles gloriosus in his disposition whereas I censured him onely in respect of those words there used which was right however in other things he were without gall from which nevertheless that in his writings against me he was not altogether free is shewed in my Apology sect 6. And for Mr. Bls. conceit that where one degree of boasting is ascribed to Mr. G. one hundred will be ascribed to me by them that read our writings it is not unlikely if they see through Mr. Bls. spectacles which make things seem black that are white and make small ●illocks seem hills But I find cause to make it part of my Letany From the unrighteous and hard censures of Mr. Bl. Mr. B. and others of my Antagonists good Lord deliver me What I said of the Assembly shewed no more boldness then was meer It is too apparent by the dealing with Mr. Coleman my selfe and others that the stream of voices in the Assembly went to establish all after the Scottish mode without a through examination of what was alledged to the contrary except what was objected were backed by a very considerable party in Parliament or Army or City of London It is no more boldness in me to assault such an Assembly then it was in a particular dissenting brother My weapons I ass●ult them with are such as the Holy Scriptures yeeld and my interpretations such as my adversaries themselves give and my arguments and answers are the very same which they use in

both the partaking and also the knowledge of the Gospel It is true Muncer was a busie man in Thuringia and stirred up the people disposed to tumults by reason of oppressions and at Munster in Westphalia in the years 1532 1533. were stirs and out-rages but even Spanheimius himself sets down the beginning of them to have been upon the Protestant reformation by the preaching of Rotmannus and others afore the comming of John Matthias and John Becold of Leyden the Bishop and Canons of Munster being Papists opposing it How in like manner the Bishop of Geneva was expelled when the Protestants grew potent there and the like was done in other places is manifest by records extant which acts have been repres●n●ed as alike odious with those of Muncer and at Munster and would h ave been so reputed if there had been the like success I mean the adverse party had prevailed as they did in these Our present distractions cannot with any shew of truth be said to take their spring from Anabap●ism by any that know things from the relation of men im●loyed in publike negotiations their being neither in the beginning nor now either in the Councel of State or Parliaments or Armies or City of London or Universities or Countries any such persons or parties as could sw●y things any further then to put some stop to the violence of the Clergy against them to which as the cause of them though not the onely the present distractions are to be referred to whom how much in former ages and at this present the great troubles of the Churches of God are to be ascribed may be seen in part in Mr. Baxters Book intituled The Reformed Pastour ch 4. sect 1 2. and in many histories Mr. Cr. adds which reason with experience dictates for by their principles whole nations are unchurched and none received into communion but by re-baptizing all former members esteemed as Publicans and Heathens hence Magistracy and Ministry that dissents are by them wholly disgusted if not discarded Answ ... Experience hath not proved either the disasters in Germany or our present distractions to have sprung from Anabap●ism but from other causes chiefly the oppression of Princes and Prelates 2. Nor are Mr. Crs. reasons sufficient to evince Anabaptism a cause of such troubles For the first principle that whole nations are unchurched is as well the Independent as Paedobaptists principle among whom is Mr. Cradock counted a light in their Goshen of Monmouthshire by the relatour of the dispute in the Epistle dedicatory and if so the present distractions are to be ascribed with as good reason to Indepency as to Anabaptism and perhaps with greater it being considered that they have been and are the more potent party As the Papists imputed all the troubles to Protestant principles of Christian ●iber●y the Prelates to non conformists whom it hi● gift long since compared with Anabaptists because they alledged ag●inst Prelacy Matth. 20 25 26. so the Presbyterians charge the like on Independency and perhaps Independents on Anabaptism yet none of their principles are indeed the spring of the troubles but the violence of the leading men of each party who by their mis-reports and clamors stir up Magistrates and people against their opposites and will by no means allow liberty to them nor willingly life of which spirit Mr. Cr. seems by his writing to bee and I suppose the State will discern all such as will not tolerate others who dissent in religion intolerable 2. It is false that Magistracy and Ministry that dissents is by Anabaptists wholly disgusted if not discarded For though I cannot justifie all so called there being violent spirits among them who are intolerable as well as o●hers yet neither do all nor any great part that I know of appear to be such But if they did yet sure it comes ●ot from those principles fore-named by Mr. Cr. there being no such consequ●nce included in those tenents that they who are not Churchme●bers are not to be accounted Magistrates As Bp. Andrews answered resp ad Bellarm Apol. c. 1 p. 30. Bellarmine alledging the Puritans did not admit the Kings Supremacy because they brought a parity into the Church To the Kings Supremacy what is parity among Elders in the Church Videt ergo lector ludere hîc pa● impar Cardinalem so may I say to Mr Cr. The Baptists do not count whole nations to be Churches of Christ and with them agree Independents as Dr. Owen of Schism ch 7 c The Baptists receive none into communion but the baptized esteemed all other as not in the Church visible though these two last are denied by many of them what is the non-admission into the Church to the disgusting or discarding of Magistracy in the Common-wealth The Reader therefore sees Mr. Cr. to play here par impar even and odd What Mr. Cr. hath suffered for patronage of respect to tender Consciences I know not nor who are for promiscuous toleration without distinction What he adds out of the old Testam●●t of P●inces punishing idolatry and blasphemy was done by special judicial laws of Moses which do not binde Christian Magistrates if they did it makes nothing for the punishing of errours of Christians about the Christian doctrine by civil punishment It is granted that Ministers are bound to oppose errours by preaching and Ecclesiastical censures both singly and in Councils yet neither have Councils nor the learnedst Doctours been very happy in determining of errours and heresies That which was heresi● in one Council was Orthodox in another under one Emperor that was adjudged ●ruth which was blasphemy under another What strange kinds of Heretiques were the Quartodecimani Aerians Helvidians and many more Had Vigilantius or Jovinian saith Mr. Baxter in his Reformed Pastour p. ●47 had Hieromes name some of their Heresies might possibly have been articles of faith Nor was it well done however Mr. Cr. conceives that well-minded Emperours did rely so much on the advise of Synods and Bishops as to banish and destroy at the instance of them such as they judged heretiques and schismatiques The sad tragedies about the doctrines of the Trinity Images Easter c. are a sufficient document to all wise rulers to bee cautelou● how they use their power for suppressing persons deemed erroneous in point of doctrine There may bee toleration of different opinions in a Commonwealth without mixture of religion and that such toleration doth not dissolve the bond of obedience or breed any of those evils Mr. Cr. reckons up except by accident the peaceable rule of the united Provinces of Belgia and elsewhere shews It is the intemperate zeal of Preachers and others against dissenters which is the chief cause of such evils as Mr. Cr. reckons up I remember that I have read that the Bores of Germany were not subdued till 100000. of them were slain but Sleidan reports not in his Com. l. 7. or any other that in Germany the Anabaptist grew so populous that they could