consider it but possibly there may be several This Bill is agreed to be an Expedient and I have known that in a business of less weight then this you have gone into a Committee c. If an Expedient must be offered in the House you cannot but allow Gentlemen to make replies in a fair Debate to answer Objections And if you in the House will depart from that from the House or Committee are equal to me But our Debate is broke one Gentleman said he would be content with a Committee if not intended for delay I do not doubt but this day will have its full effect When 't was moved on Thursday last for this day to take into consideration the preservation of Religion without naming Bill or Expedients it gave a great credit to your work I would have no discouragements upon people that have Expedients by not going into a grand Committee R. H. We are perplexed in having several Questions on foot I shall put you in mind that this Bill now proposed is no new nor strange thing Our bunness I suppose is to find out Expedients to preserve the Protestant Religion and the Kings Person here is a way has past two Parliaments already a way no reasonable objection has ever been made against it and a way rejected by the Lords in gross without offering any other But I doubt if other Expedients be tryed if they prove false we shall endanger the Protestant Religion Some have said that Gentlemen apprehend they have Expedients why then may not they 〈◊〉 propounded that the House may judge whether 't will be worth going into a grand Committee to consider them But if Gentlemen will have it their own way or not at all I 'le tell you how this looks as if they were something one way and nothing another but he does not discharge his duty to his Countrey that does â—e therefore if Gentlemen have any Expedients pray let them offer them Sir J.E. If the House be of a mind not to enter into a grand Committee I shall offer my little mite as 't is every mans duty to offer Expedient that has any I doubt not but other men have and better than me but forego not into a grand Committee I shall offer what I have I do apprehend by the Bill proposed that 't is a Bar to the Succession of the Duke and places the Succession in the next Heir I shall propose if you please not the Name of King but the power as a Regency in the next Heir 't is no new thing in Spain and France and God knows we have seen it done in our Kingdom If the Administration be placed safe in the person that may have no power to resign to the Duke and may have full power and authority at the death of the King to call that Parliament which sate last who shall have time to sit to confirm this by Act of Parliament I hope this may be done and may be done safely if you can contrive such a way Sir N. C. As I understand 't is proposed that the Government shall be in Regency during the Dukes Life I would be satisfied if the Duke would not submit to that whether those that fight against it are not Traytors in Law Sir W. P. I think this you are upon a matter of great weight some Expedient has been offered you I believe as yet but a crude one and I cannot imagine will ever be an effectual one He that moved it tells you he hopes when drawn into better form it may do what you desire It Excludes the Duke and in his place the next in the Succession shall have the Regency in him But our last act left it in the Law Consider what is a Regency I never heard of it but of a Prince in possession in Minority or Lunacy and it has generally been very unfortunate But to talk of a Regency in futuro in condition and limitation of time I never heard of This Expedient does not answer the Kings Speech nor your former Bill they make the King but a shadow and they divide Person from Power our Law will not endure it The Person divided from the Power both will be courted and who that next Heir will be we know not The King leads you to consider Expedients but such as will consist with the safety and dignity of Monarchy This must be two Kings at the same time one by Law and another by Right Portugal gives us some instance of Regency where the King was put into prison for Miscarriages in the Government and his next Heir made Regent but there is a vast difference in these two cases The King of Portugal was set aside for personal Miscarriages not for being a Papist and which is another thing that was present this is to come If this Question be to let the Duke in and then make a Question whether Allegiance be due to him but I am afraid that unless we be true to those we represent from whom by Express direction most of us are to pursue the Bill c. we shall not be avowed in what we do The Bill c. has been under consideration of all the people of England and perhaps all the Protestants of Europe all the Wits of Learned men have made their Objections against it yet notwithstanding all people are stilof the same mind And now we run upon the most mis-shapen thing which it may be two or three years before we understand it and we may expect to have an operation of it no body knows when I see very little weight in it unless improved by some other person therefore I am for the Bill Sir T. Litt. We are flying at a great matter To fight against the Duke if he should be King God forbid We have been told three or four times of Directions Gentlemen have had from their Principals to be against all those things of Expedients and to insist upon the Bill of Exclusion c. I would not have that way much cherished 't is an uncertain thing and no footsteps remain of any papers from their Country I take the meaning of that going down is to consult their Neighbours for Direction what to do I hear talk to day of Parliaments of France but this way is as dangerous like the States of Holland to consult with their Principals before they resolve most unusual and of very dangerous consequence A Regency has been proposed to secure the Administration of the Government in Protestant Hand so as not to alter the constitution of the Monarchy and this alters the Constitution of the Monarchy the least imaginable A Regency in Room of a King and the Monarchy goes on We have had Regent Protectors call it what you please Primus Consiliarius in case of a Minor Prince but I propose not this If you alter the Government I am against it but here is offer'd a Regent in place of the King or transferring the Government But it may be said
distinction When the Lady comes to be Regent not only Nature but Conscience will put her upon giving Caesar his due and perhaps that Text some of our Divines will preach upon They 'l say that the Parliament by what they have done acknowledg a good Title in the Duke But if he be King as the Parliament allows him to be in Name he has right of Descent and so will be restored to all the Rights of King An Argument upon Queen Marie like this restored the first Fruits and Tenths Another thing perhaps may come from them that proposed this Expedient I do not believe it came from that Gent. c. if you had past the other Bill great many would not submit to it but if you pass this if the Duke have right to be King and be kept from the Administration of it I doubt whether I shall sight against him And the Papists will say you have got a Law to seperate that which is inseperable I would if I were as the Duke have this Bill to perplex my opposers rather than a clear one He has told you of an Army to maintain the Bill c. which will not soon be laid down But why an Army If there must be an Army for your Bill there will be four Armies requisite to maintain the Expedient A protector has been proposed not like that of E. 6. who was little more than the now Lord President of the Councel But certainly they who proposed the Expedient would have by it the same power of letting in the Duke as of keeping him out Therefore I move to lay aside this consideration and take up the Bill as has been moved for L. G. I think it is fit we should present Reasons to the King for passing this Bill of Excluding the Duke c. I do think that the Administration of the Government has been in such hands since the King come in that though the Ministers have been changed yet the same principles remain to to this day though some have been removed The breaking of the Tripple League the taking of the Dutch Smyrna-Fleet The King of France makes War for his glory and we for nothing but to get Riches to make the King Absolute Such a violation was done upon the Rights of the people as has been done He was called down to Order E. V. A Question so extreamly well spoken unto to be interrupted with any angry Question is not very decent at this time what is spoken of is matter to be enquired into another time though the Gentleman does it with a worthy intent If any Gentleman have any thing else to propose pray hear him L. G. Goes on I intended to Move you for Reasons to induce the King to pass this Bill The strange and dishonourable Retrenchments made in the Kings Family He is surrounded by the Dukes Creares 'T is not safe for the King to part with any one Minister unless he part with all and when these men have got a Bank of money for a Popish Successor then will be the time to take away the King Sir F. W. This we are upon is a matter of great weight and difficulty Let any man that can maintain this Expedient or give you a new one Sir T. M. I have heard with patience this Expedient which has been well offered and I believe mistaken by the Gentleman who answered it I must say this your Question and your business is Religion and I have given as good proof of my zeal for the Protestant Religion this twenty years as any man has and I have been for this Bill of Excluding the Duke c. I am of opinion something must be done to secure Religion For the point of Law mentioned if the Law be such That Dominion must run with the Name of King that single Reason is to carry the Debate But if I answer not that I am at an end But sure those words that can disinherit a King may make this Expedient Law I would not rise now if I thought the Bill to Exclude the Duke c. could pass my grounds are but conjectures The last Parliament I did think this Bill would pass with greasing the wheels The condition of England is thus we do need one another both King and People and we have need to make use of a Parliament to assist one another to relieve us in the difficulties we are in If the Duke should be King he will need a Parliament and so will the people In order to this if another Expedient can be found out as like this though not the same which no objection of Law could destroy he would do the King and Kingdom great service and advantage who would produce it In this necessity we are like two great Armies encamped upon two Hills and neither dare remove not for want of Valour but from their Reason he that has the last loaf stays longest necessity compels the other to decamp At last it must be one side or other or else England will have the worst of it But if none will venture to clear the matter in point of Law I am answered If any could alter that Bill that it should not be the same we have had twice before I should like it I like this Expedient offered you for 't is a Bill of Exclusion and so strong a one that the Duke may choose the first rather I am for the nail that will drive to do our business If Gentlemen have other thoughts pray so contrive it that we have one Bill or t'other W. H. All the Expedients I have heard yet are like a Coucomber when you have well drest it throw it away These Gentlemen tell you they will bring in a Bill of Excluding the Duke from the Regency c. This proposition is either honest or not if it be honest and without design then all the dispute betwixt the King and Us will be whether the Duke shall have a Title to the Crown But I hope the King will rather gratify the Nation than the Duke If this be not honest and people about the King circumvent him they will find means from day to day to divert him Why was England so fond of Calis but to have some footstep into France And so this Bill let the Bill pass and all those Gentlemen who have dependency upon the Duke if he come to the Crown will change matters Sir F. W. A worthy Member not being satisfied with Argument of Law against the Expedient that calls me up as in my profession The Question about this Bill of Exclusion that 't is lawfall in Conscience no man will oppose the great opposers of it in the Lords House agreed it lawfull when they threw it out Not Jure Divino unlawfull concurrentibus iis qui concurrere debent Some Gentlemen told you their Country gave them instructions to press this Bill of Exclusion c. Sir T. Lit. said it was dangerous to take Instructions from the Country But I say
't is much more to take it from Court Parliaments formerly upon any extraordinary matter staid and sent their Members to consult with those who sent them I am not subjugated when I am here to what the Country does propose I am as much against a Republick as he that fears it but I am a Protestant I say I know Sir T. Litt. to be of that Experience and Reason that if he go away satisfied in this matter he will do all the good he can in the post he is in But to keep close to this question It being allowed by Law That an Exclusion of the D. from the Crown may be the next thing is to consider the Expedient of the Regency proposed The same Authority that can make a Descent of the Crown may mod fie it He argued to shew that the Regency would make the Duke insignificant in the Administration of the Government Now the Question is which is the most parcticable We Lawyers are aptest to go on the strongest side and to call every thing Prerogative I 'l put you a case in King James's time the Sheriff of there was an exceptation in his Commission that he should not keep the County Court of but should have all other Exercises of his Office But the Judges resolved he was Sheriff to all intents and purposes and that he could not be hindred keeping the County-Court An Act of Parliament against common sence is void To make a man King and not suffer him to exercise Kingly power is a contradiction Some clauses formerly in Acts of Parliament were flattering clauses to satisfie the people and not let them have the thing Should this of the Expedient be an Act 't is nonsense and may be said hereafter the House of Commons were outwitted I owe the Duke obedience if he be King but if he be King and have no power to govern he is the King and no King I have urged this to shew that this is no Expedient it blears only peoples Eyes and is no solid security To say the Duke values his Estate which he may forfeit c. He loves a Crown too very well therefore you are not to arm your self in point of Consequence but in point of Reason The last Parliament I did see by the management of the Papists and the Ministers that without this Bill of Exclusion our ruine is irresistable If the Duke come to the Crown He brings with his Religion Merum Imperium and that made me fond of the Bill but if by Law the Duke never was King there is no case of Conscience lyes upon us in his Exclusion I will only make this observation of the Kings Speech in relation to this Question And if it be practicable the ridding of our selves quite of that Party c. and not to lay so much weight upon one Expedient as to determine all others are ineffectual vide Speech The two main points it seems the King doubts himself and all this delivered by the King in great wisdom is clipt off to this Expedient of the Regency You see now we come to Expedients the Ministers have had two Parliaments to consider it and now we are come to this Expedient of the Regency I find no security in Law by this Expedient you take away nothing by this Expedient and therefore I hope the Bill of Exclusion will pass I hope that reason and not great Offices will take men off from their Nemine contradicente I speak this as if I were a dying man and Humbly Move for the Bill c. H. B. I have it in command from my Country That they apprehend no Expedient to secure us from Popery but that the Remedy will be worse than the Disease unless this Bill I have heard as yet no Reason given against it But there is an aliquid latet If the D. be not set aside I am sure the Government will be and therefore I am for the Bill of Exclusion c. Sir T. M. I know not how far Sir Fr. W. Argument may be prest what Bill soever we may have Pray let us have the Law on our sides that if the King should dye we may know whether we are to go I think the K. s ' Speech is penned as it ought to be penned and should a King speak positively to what Laws He would have we are an Irish Parliament and not an English but the Kings words are tender words The thing lies fairly before you if any Expedient can be thought of not to destroy the Monarchy and if the next presented be not the best not to refuse the next E. V. You have had an Expedient offerd you of a Regency c. instead of the Bill of Exclusion c. Pray consider what this Regency is 'T is the whole Office of a King to appoint Judges call Parliaments c. This Power they would take away from the Duke But if by Law they will reserve the name of King to the Duke 't is to bring a War upon us and to bring the Duke in by force This Regency must he supported by War as well as the Bill of Exclusion By the 13 Eliz. the Crown is not alienable by the King but may be alienated by King Lords and Commons And when that Statute was made no Successour was named to keep King James in awe which I conceive was the Reason why none was named in the last Bill of Exclusion Though we have bin frighted out from that Bill by Prorogations and Dissolutions yet 't will not frighten them whose Reasons go along with it And I am for that Bill because all men are for it and have sent up the same Parliament again that past it But if you lead people into uncertainties in the Government as this project of Regency undoubtedly will do the Court and the Country will be of a mind to lay aside Parliaments because they are useless Sir H. C. Peoples eyes are now enlightned and all the world over they are an informed people The Papists care not who is King if he be a Papist And so he proceeded much to the same purpose in several Speeches in the last Parliament Col. G. L. I would not have spoke so much out of duty to my Master but for the duty I owe to my Country I owe a new Obligation to the King for I am the D's Servant from the King My Father was a Servant to the late King and this and I have my protection under him I was bred in England and for his Service at Sea I know my own weakness not being bred to the Law but by enquiry I find that the Doctrine of disposing a Kingdom from the Right Heir is Damnable and 't is the Doctrine of the Church of Rome I have heard that in the 24 E. 3 the King demanded Advice of the Parliament in matters relating to the Crown The Answer was by the whole Parliament They could not advise in any thing relating to the Crown nor of disinheriting
THE DEBATES IN THE House of Commons Assembled at OXFORD March the 21st 1680. Reprinted 1681 THE DEBATES In the House of Commons assembled at OXFORD March the 21st 1680. The three first days being spent in chosing their speaker the confirming of him and taking the Oaths as the Law directs On Thursday the 24th of March 1680. They began thus Thursday March the 24th 1680. Sir J. H. MR. Speaker What I am about to Move concerns us all The last Parliament when you was moved to Print your Votes it was for the Security of the Nation and you found it so It prevented ill Representations of us to the world by false Copies of our Votes and none doubted your Honour in the care of it And I am confident that this House will be no more ashamed of their Actions than the last was Printing our Vote will be for the Honour of the King and the safety of the Nation I am confident if it had been necessary you would have had Petitions from the parts I come from that your Actions might be made publick As I came hither every body almost that I met upon the Road cryed God bless you in what you are going about I Move therefore that your Votes may be Ordered forthwith to be Printed with the rest of your Proceedings and 〈◊〉 shall onely add that your self has done so well in taking that care upon you the last Parliament that the House will desire you to continue them in the same Method Sir W. C. That which put me upon Moving the Printing your Votes the last Parliament was false Copies that went about in former Parliaments of the Votes and Transactions of the House Let men think what they please the weight of England is the people and the more they know the heavier will it be and I could wish some would be so wise as to consider that this weight hath sunk ill Ministers of State almost in all Ages and I do not in the least doubt but it will do so to those who are the Enemies of our Religion and Liberties And the world will find the honest Commons of England will sink Popery at last therefore I second the Motion Sec. J. I beg pardon if I consent not to the motion of Printing the Votes c. consider the Gravity of this Assembly There is no great Assembly in Christendom does it 'T is against the gravity of this Assembly and 't is a sort of Appeal to the people 'T is against your gravity and I am against it H. B. If you had been a Privy-Council then 't were fit what you do should be kept secret Your Journal Books are open and Copies of your Votes in every Coffeehouse and if you Print them not half Votes will be dispersed to your prejudice This Printing c. is like plain English-men who are not asham'd of what they do and the people whom you represent will have a true account of what you do you may prevent the publishing what parts of the Transactions you please and Print the rest L G I find that those who write out the Votes and Transactions and send them all England over are favoured and I believe no Gentleman in the House will be against Printing them but the Secretary I hope you will not have reason to be asham'd of what you do therefore I am for Printing c. Col M. By experience we have found that when former Parliaments have been Prorogued or Dissolved they have been sent away with a Declaration against their proceedings If our Actions be nought let the world judge of them if they be good let them have their virtue 'T is fit that all Christendom should have notice of what you do and posterity what you have done and I hope they will do as you do therefore I am for printing c. Sir F W What has been said by the Secretary is a single opinion for he says that printing the Votes is an Appeal to the people I hope the House will take notice that printing the Votes is not against Law But pray who sent us hither The Privi-Council is constituted by the King but the House of Commons is by the choice of the people I think it not natural nor rational that the people who sent us hither should not be informed of our Actions In the Long Parliament it was a Trade amongst Clerks to write the Votes and dispers them and were questioned for it there but 't was then said by a Learned Gentleman that 't was no offence to inform the people of the Votes of Parliament the Journal Books being open and the people ought to have notice of them The Long Parliament were wise in their generation to conceal many things they did from the people and yet the Clerk was sent away who dispersed the Votes and had nothing done to him The Popish party dread nothing more than Printing what you do and I dread a man in the Secretaries post and such an accusation as was upon him in the last Parliament that he should hold such a position that printing the Votes is an Appeal to the people Vide the Printed Vote of this day A Motion was made to inquire into the Miscarriage of the Bill for Repeal of 35 Eliz. c. R. H. I think the Motion is to inquire after the slipping of that Act the last Parliament and not presenting it for the Royal assent For my own part I look upon it as a breach of the constitution of the Government We are told that we are Republicans and would change the Government but such as are about to do so 't is a natural fear in them to be thought so and they will cast it upon others In a crowd 't is frequent for pickpockets to cry out Gentlemen have a care of your pockets that they may more securely do it themselves and have the less suspition upon them I will not offer this great thing to the consideration to day but Move you to Adjourn it till to morrow Sir F. W. I shall humbly put in this word I doubt this matter will be too big to be debated to day 't is of great importance and will not be forgotten be pleased to Adjourn the Debate c. Sir N. C. I humbly Move that for the preservation of the Protestant Religion and the Kings Person a Bill be brought in to prevent a Popish Successor and in particular against James Duke of York the same Bill which past the last Parliament Sec. J. You are upon rising and I shall not detain you long I must give my Negative to this motion and my reason why I do so is because the King hath declared in his Speech that as to the point of altering the Succession he cannot depart from what he has so often declared The King has given his Vote against it therefore I must do so to L. G. The D. of York is in Scotland and I hope the King will come up to what he has said
Him to whom they were sworn The Fundamental and Common Law of England has made the Duke Heir to the Crown if the King have no Sons The Title of Hen. 4. was confirmed by Parliament but he laid his Claim of Descent from H. 3 and it continued in that Descent till H. 6. and then the Parliament declared that those Acts were not binding but unjust and declared the Oaths of Allegiance to those Kings in famous and wicked and so the Right Heir came in H. 8. had Power to dispose of the Crown by his last Will and Testament to place and displace the Crown at his pleasure yet all his right Heirs came to the Crown though Jane Gray claimed it by vertue of that Will and baited her Title with Religion Queen Elizebeth made a Law That whoever did maintain That the Crown could not be disposed of by Parliament should be Guilty of Treason c. and for ever after of Praemunire But since that there is a Restitution of King James which acknowledge him lawfully rightly and justly the next Heir to the Crown and did beseech the King to accept of their Allegiance to him and his Posterity And I think our Ancestors swore to the King and his Posterity as well as we 'T is a great Happiness to this Nation that both the Lines are united and that we are rid of the Misfortunes of the Barons Wars We have had Attempts to turn the Government into a Republique And who knows but that if you put by the Right of the D. the Revenue of the Crown being much upon the people but that there may be Attempts to turn the Gevernment into a Republick again When my Father was in Prison in the late Troubles an eminent man then in Power in discourse with him said I have obliged you and if the King come in as I believe He will then think of me Look to your Selves when you are in the Saddle again If once you divide adieu to Monarchy for ever If you keep out the Duke what must follow An Act for Association I speak now for England and for my Posterity I have seven Children How will this look The Kings Father Murder'd and his Brother taken from Him Will this take no effect with the King I wish the Duke many happy days but the King more from my heart than the Duke The King is a healthful Man and the Duke is not I am not barely the Duke's Servant which makes me concern my self nor out of pique of Honour would I do any thing to destroy my Posterity Therefore I am against the Bill c. Sir W. C. That which calls me up is to answer something that was said by the worthy Member that spoke last I am for the Bill of Exclusion and was so the last Parliament because I am clearly satisfied there can be no Security without it But I must so far agrree with him that this Bill if it should pass will not be a full and compleat Security But Here being an Interruption by a noise in the House this Gentleman proceeded no further Col B. This is the day of Englands distress and not only England but upon this days Debate depends the good fate of the Protestant Religion all the world over Except you expect a Miracle from Heaven nothing else can save the Protestant Religion but this Bill of Exclusion I think I have said this many years ago That Popish Matches would bring in Popery at last As to the point of Law spoken of that 't will be interpreted according to the strength of the Party But I doubt not if we do our endeavours God will help us if we have nothing left us but Prayers and Teares We are in condition of Conquest or Compact and so is all Government Interest must defend this Bill and not an Army we are the Army I have a Family as well as others and where Idolatry must be set up and rather than my Children should breath in such an Air I had rather they were buried and had all the mischiefs in the world Col. L. ingenuously offer'd some things but without this Bill you may sit down take a Popish Successour and renounce the Protestant Religion I would break this Popish Interest and then Interest will maintain this Bill If once this Bill pass and as in Queen Elizebaths time Protestants are put in places of Trust you need not fear the disturbance spoke of Where ten were of this minde an hundred are now that will bleed for this Bill In plain English let the world see that the Protestant Religion is dear to us and we shall have the Law on our sides Sir T. Litt. I was mistaken by some Gentlemen in what I said I shall be very short and tender of the time because 't is late That of the Lady Maries Regency obviated an absurdity in the former Bill If the Duke should have a Son where are you then The Lady cannot descend from the Throne having possess'd it But my meaning was that the two Princesses respectively should Succeed in the Regency during the Minority of that Son The Bill of Exclusion is so weak a thing that 't will need all the props to support it And a train of consequences will follow it What is told you of Scotland is worth your consideration if Scotland be not consenting to it I know not how you 'll obviate that It unites the Papists of England and France which we ought above all things to prevent H. B. He may be convinced by his own Argument For by so much the easier 't is for the Princess of Orange to descent from her Authority of Regent so much the less is our security And for Scotland the same Interest that passes this Bill here will do it in Scotland and in Ireland there is no need of it By this Proposition of the Regency all Commissions Military by Sea and Land Church and Law are to go on in the Dukes name And if all Dispatches under the Great Seal must go under his Name we can have no Security The Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy can be taken to none but him and if that be granted That 't is unlawful to take up arms against the King or those Commissionated by him If that be not a true proposition I know not why that Declaration was made It lies loose to me I must confess this Expedient seems to me as if a man that scorched his Shins at the Fire instead of removeing himself farther off should send for a Mason to remove the Chimney back I have heard from Lawyers That if a man do make a Freehold-Lease to begin from the date thereof 't is void It would be more ingenuous for the Gentlemen to say If you do pass the Bill to exclude the Duke they will not be bound by it they will have the Duke to Succeed and then I wish they would tell us what will save the Protestant Religion If the Duke come to the Crown will