vnto them Nay were they not therefore wholy to be separated from and left to the iudgement of God Num. 16. which ouertooke them and all that ioyned vnto them Yet was their error onely in matters of order and outward gouernement of the Church This may suffize to conuince the aduersaries vntrue assertions in this place To that of Maister Cranmer and Ridley c. is answered before For conclusion therefore this we adde concerning this poinct That all such assemblies and people as holde professe and practise as doth the Church of England these abominations following They can not by the word of God be esteemed in such estate trulie to holde Christ their Prophet Priest and King Towit The confusion of all sortes of people though neuer so wicked and their seed in the body of the Church The offices and callings of other Archb. and Lordb. then Iesus Christ also of Archdeacons Chancellors Commissaries Officials Priestes halfe Priestes Parsons Vicars Vagrant and Mercinarie Preachers c. The entrance into the Ministerie by an other way and by other Lord then Iesus Christ The executing of it vnder those strange Lords leauing it at their pleasure The preaching of the word administration of the Sacramentes and gouerning of the Church by vertue of the offices and callings afore said according to the Popish Canons and constitutions The power of Excommunication in the Prelates alone and their Officialls The confounding of Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices and authoritie in the Ministers of the Church The forbidding of Mariage at certen seasons The imposing and vsing of stinted deuised Liturgies The English Portuis taken out of the Popes latine word for worde saue that a fewe of the grosest thinges are left out yet keeping the same frame and order of Collectes Psalmes Lessons Pater nosters Pistles Gospels Versicles Respondes c. Appointing holy dayes to all Sainctes and Angels to the Virgin Marie Iohn Baptist Marke Luke and twelue Apostles seuerallie togeather with Fastes on the Eaues and on Ember dayes Fridayes Satterdayes Lent Prescribing the Ministers to pray ouer the dead ouer the Corne and Grasse at some seasons of the yeere and ouer Women at their Courching or purification Ioyninge them also to marie with the Ring which they make a sacramentall signe And to Baptise likewise with the signe of the Crosse with Godfathers and Godmothers with questions demanded of the infant that can not speake nor vnderstande Giuing power to Women to baptise And ordeyning that the other Sacrament of the Lords Supper be celebrated kneeling as when they receyue their maker and with change of the wordes of Christes institution taking in steed of them the wordes of the Popes Masse booke translated into English c. Finallie the vpholding of these and all such amongst them onely by carnall weapons of imprisonment death confiscation of goods banishment and such like The assemblies I say and people which holde professe and practize as doeth this Church of Englande the abominations afore said concerning the outward order and gouernement of the Church what soeuer truethes they holde besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest and King in such constitution of a church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the word of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted churches of Christ this is the question betweene vs and our aduersaries 7. Lastlie let the godlie and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not followe vppon this answere in this place First that the a Contrarie to 1. Tim. 3.15 2. Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1. Corin. 4.6 Reu. 22.18 19 Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Secondlie that the b Contrarie to the 2. Tim. 3.17 with 1. Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.13 men of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fullie furnished to euery good worke Thidlie that c Contrarie to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1 2 3. Esay 32.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1. Cor. 11. and 12. and 14. Rom. 12.3 4 5 6 7 8. Mat. 28.20.1 Tim. 6.13 14. Christ him selfe in whom the treasures of wisedome and knowledge are hid yet was so foolishe carelesse and vnfaithfull as hauing an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it anie offices lawes and orders for the due gouerning and ordering thereof Finallie That the d Contrarie to the 2. Cor. 6.14 15 16. Psal 94.20 119.21.113.128 Reu. 9.1 2 3 and 14.9 10 11. Hierarchie Worship Sacramentes Traditions Canons and whatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outward orders and gouernement of the church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes owne ordinances O shameles impietie Doubtles this is that same strange passion and meere desperatnes wherewith afterwarde vniustlie they charge vs which we will not prosecute as it deserueth but exhort them onely to take heede least that woe come vppon them whiche is written Woe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darknes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter Woe vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esa 5.20.21 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 2. Except IN this your defence of your secōd Exception it pitieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and if we professe to obey him in his own ordinances and in no other I answered we doe constantly prosesse so and as we professe so wee practise But to make our profession practize in this poinct more manifest I noted how our stare meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and how hee is to be obeyed viz. That the written word ought of necessitie to shew vs our inward and meare spirituall beleif obedience As for the outward Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to bee appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no where forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication two thinges First it is foule wrong to our Churches and to my wordes to say as you doe That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it was neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though externall yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangable by the Scriptures My expresse wordes and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our only and absolute King Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth
Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world by the worde of God and ioyned togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedince of Christ And whether the present ecclesiasticall assemblies of this Land be such or no. 5 Whether the Sacraments beeing seales of the righteousnes which is by faith may be deliuered to any other then to the faithfull and their seed or in any other ministery and manner then is appoincted by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they bee not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblies of England at this day 6 Whether their booke of Common prayer with the Feastes Fasts and Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these assemblies be the true worship of God commaunded in his word or the deuise or inuention of man for Gods worship and seruice 7 Whether all people and Churches without exception bee not bound in Religion only to receiue and submit vnto that ministerie worship and order which Christ as Lord and King hath giuen and appoyncted to his Church Or whether in Religion any may receiue or ioyne vnto another ministery worship and order deuised by man for the seruice of God And consequently whether they which ioyne to the present ecclesiasticall ministerie worship and order of these cathedrall and parishionall assemblies can bee assured by the word of God that they ioyne vnto the former appoincted by Christ and not to the latter deuised by man euen the man of sinne for the worship and seruice of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire their direct answer with proofes of their answers from the scriptures according to which word if they speake not as wee said before so we say againe with the “ Esa 8.20 Prophet Esay It is because there is no light in them And now to conclude whereas this man being not able to answer our Reasons as hath bene declared yet would in the ende of his writting fasten vpon vs some strange passion yea and meere desperatnes for separating from them and answering of them as we haue done We leaue it the godly and discrete Reader to iudge by that which hath bene said on both parts whether it bee not themselues which are taken with a strange passion and driuen there unto by meere desperatnes when as to mainteyne their estate they will haue the scriptures to fall as hath bene * See the answer to our second Exceptiō and 7. Reason c. seene in their answeres before yea and exalt the Church and Magistrate aboue Christ himselfe euen flesh and blood aboue God blessed for euer But for this and oll their vnrighteous dealing against the truth and people of God we leaue them to the Lord who searcheth the hearts tryeth the raynes euen to giue euery man according to his wayes and according to the frute of his workes That is to them that by continuance in weldoing seeke glorie and honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth and obey vnrighteousnes indignation and wrath Jer. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6 7 8. H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say euery one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab co quod est secandum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Thirde Fallacia aequinocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3 4 5. saying separate frō such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desparate conscience and then if that apeate separate from such wholly Or els erring in simplicitie and of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate not wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacie and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe and withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Maist Cranmer and the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie likewise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians and you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe and yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Neither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very profession doctrine wee cannot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluation while they so remaine but indeed very Antichristes as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally As it doth not conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were casely certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that haue many probable and seeming reasons and alleadge them publish
popish shiftes euen the olde worne argumentes of antiquitie and vnwritten verities so often and so much stoode vppon by the Papistes Alas that these men should plead to be true Christians and yee thus openly take parte with Antichrist What shall we say to these things Surely God is iust and will verifie his word where he saieth That they which receyue not the loue of the trueth that they may bee saued hee will sende them stronge delusions to beleeue lyes that they may bee damned Fiftly note howe he maketh the ordinances touching outwarde gouernement and ceremonies to be no matters of faith neither writtē at all Surelie this is strange diuinitie It is an ordinance not onely concerning the inward but also the outward gouernment of the Church that Christ is Lord and King thereof It is therefore no matter of faith It cōcerneth the outward gouernment whether the Pope be vnder Christ head of the church or no Doeth it not therefore concerne faith Publique prayer preaching of the Word and hearing of it preached administration and receyuing of the Sacraments are matters concerning the outward gouernement and orders of the Church doe they not therefore touch faith Admonition and exhortation concerne also the outwarde gouernement of the Church doe they not therefore concerne faith Finally by this diuinitie the Sacraments of Baptisme and of the Lordes supper being ceremonies shal be no matters of faith at all amongst them But here they stay not but adde moreouer That the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church bee arbitrarie at the appointment of the Church and Magistrate and not certen nor written in the booke of God Whervpon it followeth that it is not certen nor taught in the scriptures but arbitrarie at the Churches Magistrates pleasure Whether Christ or the Pope of Rome or of Cāterburie be head and Archbishop of the Church of God Whether Jewes onely of the tribe of Leui may nowe minister the holy things of God in his Church Whether Christ haue giuen any giftes and set any offices in his Church for the Ministerie and guidance thereof Whether prayer must bee in a knowne or vnknowne tounge Whether the teaching and ruling Elders be to be had and honored Whether the church may excommunicate Whether the Popes or any other Prelates excommunication be to be regarded Whether there be two or three or seauen Sacramentes Whether the Passeouer Circumcision and other ceremonies and sacrifices of the Lawe be now to be vsed Whether the Heathenishe sacrifices and worship be to bee ioyned withall Whether creame oyle salt spitle crossing and coniuring be to be vsed in Baptisme Whether the bread onely and not the cup is to bee giuen to the lay people as they call them Whether holy water holy ashes holy palmes and such like be of the holy things of the church Whether the Iewish and Popish vestimentes fastes and holy dayes are to be obserued and a thousande such like which are all of them concerning the outward orders gouernement and ceremonies of the Church By these mens Diuinitie these and infinite such like are vnwritten and vncerten but left onely to the pleasure of the Church and Magistrate Moreouer if it please them the Princes and ciuill Magistrates may them selues be the publike ministers of the worde Sacraments and censures of the Church any that will may without a calling take vpon him to bee a publique officer in the church Women may baptise or administer the Lords supper The Jewishe Romish or Heathenish priesthood may be retayned Auricular confession may be vsed The Keyes of the kingdome of heauen may bee appropriated to the Pope of Rome or the Prelate of Canterburie or any other whom soeuer The Prelates and their Officials excommunications do binde in heauen The Apochriphall bookes and Decretall epistles are canonicall scriptures The Papes Portuis and the English booke of prayer taken out of it are the true and lawfull worship of God The Prelates and Priestes are the true and lawfull Ministers of God Orders pennaunce extreame vnction matrimonie c. are the Sacramentes of the Church Cap Surplis Cope Tippit Rotchet c. are ornamentes of the Ministerie Finally all ragges and trumperies of the Romish religion are good and lawfull if it please the Church and Magistrate For why They concerne the outward gouernement orders and ceremonies of the church And touching them say these men Christ hath not left any ordinances written certen or perpetuall but left them at the arbitrarie appointment of the Church and Magistrate Is not this straunge Diuinitie Yet they stay not there neither but as men that haue bent their tongues like bowes for lyes they feare not to adde moreouer that when the Church and Magistrate appointeth anie ordinances whether these or any other touching the outward gouernement ceremonies of the Church we are to account them to be Christes owne ordinances who hath left this libertie to the Church for to vse O shameles mouth O vnchristian hart Can any Papist or Atheist say more or can any desire a more euident proof then this that these men and assemblies thus holding professing and practizing as here them selues affirme can not in this estate by the word of God be deemed med true Christians and Churches Sixtly obserue howe yet moreouer they seeke shiftes would colour the matter pretending That the things which concerne outward gouernement and ceremonies are not of the foundation simply But this will helpe them no more then the other For first we aske are they of the foundation at all though not simply If they be then seeing they are not written not certen nor perpetuall as heere is affirmed it will followe that neither the whole foundation is written certen or perpetuall neither the Apostles were faithfuull and skilsull maister builders in the laying thereof If they be not then why is this worde simplie added as if they graunted that they were of the foundation though not simplie as they speake Secondlie wee aske whether the outwarde gouernement and ceremonies ordeyned by Christ for his church vnder the Gospell be not of the foundation asmuch as the outward gouernement and ceremonies appointed by Moses for the Church vnder the law Or if they be whether they are not as faithfully sett downe by Christ as the other were by Moses and as carefully to be obserued by vs as the other were by the Jewes Heb. 3.2.3 or rather much more inasmuch as Christ the Son is worthy more glorie and honour then Moses the seruant Thirdlie we aske what foundamentall poinctes Moses and Aaron with the rest of the Iewes ioyning with them helde that Corah Dathan Abiram and their companions held not Differing from them and erring only touching the Priesthood and Ministerie which concerned the outward orders gouernement of the Church was therefore Corah Dathan Abiram and their companies in that estate the true Jsraell of God Or were not the other truthes they helde by this meanes frustrate and of none effect
vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitionsly depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our stare but I say Thus to beleeue and practize simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt answer You deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to bee saued wherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct which in the beginning I charged you with That all Churches and Christians here in Kinge Edwards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tayler c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they were lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see how malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry say against you O shamelesse mouth ô vnchristian heart which termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs and yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practize as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches nowe Yea betwene your owne lately and ours now speake out what is it Yow can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outward Church order which wee doe But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity we malitiously they of ignorance wee of plaine obstinacie and hauing a conuicted and seared conscience whereby they you might be true Christians for all these errors but we now cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against which all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a perticuler man a true Christian Secondly wee now erre not in these poincts of simplicitie but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you knowe euery mans heart and conscience so well If you doe then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whom you dare say are conuicted in coÌ„science That is much also to affirme But if you doe that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and chiefest in authoritie that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blaspheamed in denying him And yet the Assemblies then where not conuicted they still were true Churches Wherefore in this saying if you say to the purpose you then affirme the Third generall poinct that I noted in you at the beginning of this my last Reply That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience But here I maruell that you say Maister Hus and others of the holy Martirs did heare and say Masse till their dying day Also that others did acknowledge the Popes supremacie I aske you doe you meane that they held and vsed the Popish Masse according to all the abominations that are in it If you thinke so then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest were holy Martirs For therin are founde errors plainely fundamental which of them selues abolish from Christ They are not to be compared to our publike errours now in England The like I say of the Popes supremacy If you thinke any of the Martirs acknowledged it in the large and ample meaning therof as the Popish Doctors doe set it down Then verily neither were they any Martirs The booke of Acts and Monuments whither you send vs affirmeth not that they held these errours in the largest and grossest sort It may be therefore they held manie and greuious errors of ignorance both in the Popish Masse and in the supremacy which might neuerthelesse stand with Christ crucifyed And so they might be were holy Martirs But I affirme that according to the damnable grossenes of the very Papists they neither did nor could hold them Therefore in these instances you say nothing to vs nor against the question in hand Further you said before in the beginning of your desence of this Exception * Pag. 13. That Master Cranmer Ridley Latimer and the rest of the Martirs then neither had them selues nor ioyned in spirituall communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Now I see you make no conscience of vntruthes yea you are bold to auouch open and known falsehoods Did not Maister Cranmer hold himselfe for Archbishop still and that hee was by the Pope vniustly and vnsufficiently deposed and by Queene Mary forcibly restreyned from it Did he euer repent of holding that Office till his death Also did not Ridley stand vpon his right to the Bishoprick of London though ready to die Latimer though he renounced his Bishoprick yet he kept his Ministerie and neuer repented him of it Philpot neuer misliked hâ—s Arch-deaconry Yea when he refused bloudy Bonner Yer he appealed to his ordinary the Bishop of Winchester The like minde is to be seene in Bishop Farrar And generally whosoeuer were Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they neuer renounced it though they died Martirs Thus appeareth your bould vntruth in this behalfe Further in your Sixt answer Pag. 16. First you will not see what I meane in saying That these outward orders bee not of the foundation simply I meant not at all of the very * 1 Cor. 15.2 3 4. Rom. 4.25 1. Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. foundation neither are they Secondly you aske if our outward orders vnder Christ be not fundamentall aswell as the Iewes vnder the Law I answer neither were the Iewes outward orders of the very foundation without which they could not be saued Thirdly you aske how Corah c. differing from Moses and Aron only about the Priesthood and Ministerie were separated from and damned I answer not that the matter was fundamentall but the Manner was rebellious with consciences a thousand times conuicted and so donne with a high hand against God him selfe But now this considered How vainely doe you charge mee in your entrance into this Excep pa. 13. That I others of my minde goe about to iustifie these matters of order in controuersy by Cranmer Ridlies and Latimers example and their Congregations then For shame doe you not see the coÌ„trary that I call them errors I onely iustifie by their exaÌ„ple that these corruptions abolish vs not from Christ as
therewith And thus their Obiection of the Iewish constitution is I trust fully answered So that still their peremptory separation and condempning of the Churches of England for some outward corruptions temayneth still a grieuous sinne vpon their heades for which without harty repentance they shall one day answer before God which will be too heauie a burthen for them to beare Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptions but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which were left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides Iudg. 2.3 which we hope God will in time abolish So dare we not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appoincted time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of saluation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrowing the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most parte of great controuersie and disputation amonge the learned So long I say communion in things lawfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Otherwise it will come to passe by reason of the * Mat. 25.13 to 23. diuersitie in opinions and iudgmentes which by the corruption of our nature we remaine in in this tabernacle as hath “ Leu. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had with any Church liuing no nor any one Christian with another Which to affirme were most absurd and vngodly These obseruations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde will adde a blessing to this worke That such as are simple hearted and haue exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see their extremitie in so rashly and vnaduisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometimes their Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may haue the glory and themselues the comforte euen the saluation of their soules through Christ D. B. AN ARGVMENT PROVING THAT the Churches of England are the true Churches of God VVHatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particuler man a true Christian and in state of saluation That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered togeather to bee a true Church BVt the whole doctrine as it is publiquelie * Booke of Articles published Anno 1562. professed and practized by law in England is sufficient to make a particuler man a true Christian and in state of saluation * See further for these words in Pag. 3. and our publique Assemblies are therein gathered togeather THerefore it is sufficient to make the publique Assemblies true Churches H. IACOB Against the Assumption of the said Argument Mr Iohnson made 3. Exceptions and 9. Reasons which hereafter follow in order Together with Mr Iacobs Replies vnto the same But before we come to the examination of the saide Assumption let vs see first what he saith against the Proposition Fr. IOHNSON TO omitt the Proposition vntill it better appeare by their defence of the Assumption how to take and vnderstand it we will for the present only shewe the weakenes of the Assumption and this also the rather because they seeme wholy to depend vpon it H. IACOB THe answerer omitteth the Proposition for in deed it is most certen But he denyeth the Assumption which yet is as certen also That the doctrine in our booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian Fr. IOHNSON In our former answere to this argument we omitted the proposition not because of the certentie of it euery way as the Replier dreameth but vntill we might see by his defence of the †The Assumption is examined and maintained Pag. 4. assumption how to take it as thē we noted Nowe therefore hauing seene in his reply the vnlearned vngodly and vnconscionable pretences by which he would seeme to defende the Assumption when in deed he doth nothing else but cast a miste before the eyes of the simple we giue him to vnderstand that the whole argument is lame and faultie in euery parte thereof The Proposition is not absolutelie true as it appeareth he vnderstandeth it by his defence of the Assumption The Assumption is not only false as we proued in our former answer but also lacketh a foote whereon it should goe if it were perfect and entier For whereas in the Proposition mention is made not only of the making of a true Christian but also of a companie so gathered together he should in the Assumption if he would haue had it sound and perfect not onely haue assumed that the doctrine c. is sufficient to make a true Christian but haue added also that their assemblies be cōpanies so gathered togither Which being not done both the Assumption wanteth one of the feete and the conclusion inserreth more then was in the premisses and so the whole silogisme is faultie and disfigured Thus might we without any further answer returne this argument to the first framers of it to be better fashioned Yet in hope that they may bee brought through the blessing of God to receiue the loue of the trueth that they may be saued and with their giftes no more to plead for and deck the whore of Babilon to help forward the building beautifying of Sion we will more particularly lay open to them the weaknes of this his reply And first whereas he affirmeth that the Proposition is most certen yet in his defence of the Assumption he declareth that he so taketh it as whatsoeuer amongst them be iointly togeather held and ioyned with that which otherwise might make a ture Christian or a true Church yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures we answere that in this sence the Proposition neither is nor can be absolutely true as it ought to be if they would haue their argument good For who knoweth not that such “ Gal. 5.2.4 things may bee ioined with Christ as abolish from Christ. And againe †2. Cor. 6.14 25. that Christ and Antichrist can not accord togither Either therefore the Proposition is not generall but admitteth limitations and then is not the Argument good Or if it bee generall without any limitation so as whatsoeuer be added too or cōmingled with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or a true Church yet it hindreth nothing at all Thē is it not absolutely true in such vnderstanding as may appeare by the former exceptions diuers other that might be alleadged Next touching the Assumption besides that it is lame as before is shewed it is also vntrue as in our former answer appeareth Some balme in deed this man
he sayth We sinned against the Third commaundement in the application of the scriptures aforesaid That is their owne common custome and lamentable sinne to breake the Third commaundement in taking the name of God in vaine not onely by falsifying and peruerting the scriptures but also by their Ministration of the Word Sacramentes and Gouernment of the Church by vertue of such offices and callings as Christ neuer appointed in his worde therevnto but were first deuised and still are reteyned by Antichrist that sonne of perdition Hitherto of his answere concerning the proofe of our Proposition To the proofe of our Assumption he “ Marke this his sounde and Scholerlike dâ—alinge in this place and afterwards answereth not a worde which yet most of all required answere if he would in deede soundlie defende their estate as he pretendeth That their profession and practise ioyneth Christ Antichrist togeather we shewed in pag. 28 c. by their Articles Canons Iniunctions Aduertisements c. published at sundry times by their present Ministerie Worship and Church-gouernement according therevnto If this be not so why bringes he not warraunt for these particulers from the Testament of Christ and so take away the proofe of our Asumption Jf this be so as by his silence he graunteth and wee are sure he cannot shew the contrarie by the Scriptures then our Assumption standeth firme and consequently in this constitution they cannot be accounted true Christians nor their Assemblies so gathered true constituted Churches H. JACOB his 2. Reply vnto the 1. Reason 1 IN this your defence of your first Reason you would first of all fasten on me a contradiction for gráunting that our Church corruptions are from Antichrist which against your Second Exception J said wee holde to be Christs owne viz. Because we hold Christ hath giuen his Church that libertie to deuise them Alas it pittieth mee to see your simplicitie or it greueth me for your malice who could not see that there I spake in the person of our whole Church and state See Pag. 12. 18. 19. and shewed what they held And here I speake as I thought my selfe This is a silly contradiction 2. Then you say Pag. 25. I dazell the peoples eyes in saying some outward orders and ceremoines are from Antichrist as if they were but a few and of small moment Therefore you are content to recken them vp full tediously God knoweth euen 91. in number numero Deus impare gaudet And what of all these will you saye therefore That whosoeuer holdeth these cannot holde Christ vnto saluation And so Mr. Cranmer and the rest of the Martirs were damned But if not Then I saye againe These some these 91. are too few and too slight and of too small momeÌ„t of them selues and of their owne nature to abolishe vs from Christ This ought you to haue proued which you neuer doe but still your speech is most false and not vnproper onely that wee ioyne Christ and Antichrist togeather As in the maimed maÌ„ before * Pag. 25. noted there is not life death ioyned togeather but liuing things and dead things are and yet the man aliue and a true man 3. Then “ 2 cor 14. c Eze. 43.8 â— King 17.33 34 40 41. you will iustify your applying the scriptures which I said were mismatched were meant against the Idolatry of the First commandment not against the Idolatry of the Second only and meerelie as our Church orders in question are Therefore these scriptures cannot inferre any abolishing from Christ by simple holding of the corruptions in our Church which they doe proue by the simple holding of those Heathenish Idolatries whereof they speake To this you reply in Foure points 1 Jf these places bee meant of Heathenish Idolatry which could neuer stand with Gods truth togeather Yet they forbid all other corruptions against the Second commaundement also That I neuer denyed to be true after a sort These places indeed doe forbid the breach of the Second coÌ„maundement but not principally directly and of purpose nor in that measure or fulnes But their immediat purpose is against the Heathenish Idolatry breaking the First commaundement So that they forbid the breach of the Second commaundemeÌ„t consequently and proportionatly but not in that full manner as they doe the First They forbid the First so as that they shew there is no communion with God whilst men ioyne in such Idolaty they simply forbid the Second but deny not al communion with God to whom soeuer erreth therein 2 To your SecoÌ„d Reply I say make much of it for my parte I neuer thought other but our church corruptions are against the Second commaundement your second scripture here applied is of Saul I. Sam. 1â— a presumptuous and wilfull offendour if you make our whole Churches so your sinne is the greater 3 Thirdlie if you meane anie of Antichristes Idolatrie and false worship and namelie this in question the outward corrupt orders and ceremonies onely and no more doeth abolish vs from Christ and that this can not stande togeather with true faith like as the Pagans idolatrie against the First commaundement can not Then I denie it vtterlie you haue no proofe in the world for it And this inwrappeth Master Cranmer Ridley c. in the same course Your excuse here pag. 29. That Cranmer Ridley c. forsooke all the corruptions they sawe This belongeth to manie Thousands in England nowe no lesse then to them yea surelie there are infinite that knowe not so much of the corruptions as those learned men did which yet are not ignoraunt of redemption by Christ c. Yea your selfe Maister Iohnson though a man of learning yea knowing our corruptions and misliking them a long time before you forsooke vs yet I thinke you stood not abolished from Christ all that while I pray bee so good to poore men as you may yea to vs nowe also aswell as to your selfe and them in those times Where you say pag. 29. That since that time we are conuicted by the scriptures If you meane some fewe that here and there you could pick out and doe sinne still speake to them threaten them throwe out your damnatorie sentence against them But smite not all whosoeuer comes neare you Beware howe you iudge least you be iudged The heart belongeth to God therefore censure not euerie mans conscience too hastilie 4 Fourthlie you would prooue in your Third Exception before noted pag. 29. That both the breach of the First commaundement and of the Second also is forbidden I haue tolde you before pag. 32 33. howe it is true and howe not Nothing at all to serue your turne That which you say pag. 30. touching your first scripture 2. Cor. 6.14 2 Cor. 6.14 c. in that sence and maner as I suide is true and not otherwise That which of your Second scripture Ezek. 43.8 pag. ibid. you say Ezek. 43. â— Who seeth not but it speaketh
present Gouernours and then doubtlesse it was lawe And though Zachary Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ and his Apostles did not actuallie ioyne in these corruptions yet they were generall no doubt and by lawe neuer the lesse and a number of the Iewes simply vsed them yet fell not from God as †The Sixe waterpots of the Iewishe purifyings Iohn 2.6 Therefore your Replies here are most vaine and false Lastlie in pag. 37. you will not confesse your contrarietie that is to saye betweene this your Second Reason and certen wordes in your Sixt Reason But the greater is your sinne to doe euill and defende it too Here in this Reason pag. 35. you would haue this scripture Mat. 15. to be meant against such vaine worshippers that they become heereby no true Church Or els what doe you vrge it against vs But in your Sixt Reason following you say That the Iewes euen nowe when these words were applyed to them were the true worshippers of God Are not these contrarie I pray you then reconcile them Maister IOHNSONS III. Reason against the former Assumption with Maister IACOBS Replies to the same REASON III. IF the whole doctrine as it is publiquely professed and practized by law in Englande be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that togeather with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Gouernement of the Church deuised by man euen the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holy ordinance and appointment of God himselfe to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie worship and gouernement aforesaid neuer was so but is mans deuice in religion euen Antichrist that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ. The Assumption is proued Gal. 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that helde not onely such truethes of the Gospell as are in that booke of Articles but more then those Yet if they should with all submitt vnto circumcision he sayth they were abolished from Christ Christ would prosit them nothing H. IACOB his I. Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuelie to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our English holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But A Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We answer We denie the Assumption Galatians were then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If he obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ That is in deed some amongst them as helde Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutelie to saluation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3.4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 iustification was by the morall workes of the law Nowe the Churches of Galatia generallie were not such but held the sauing faith sound doubtles though manie amongest them were tainted with that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that were crept in and too well interteyned among them Howbeit with the Church Communion was kept And therefore so with vs you ought to deale If you say we are worse Christians then those grofest Galatians It is vtterlie false proue it if you can and it must drawe in Maister Cranmer c. with vs also If you say there are manie amongst vs as bad or worse then those worst Galatians you may say it but proue it you cannot Also if it were so yet this disagraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath bin said of the Galatians F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 3. Reason TO this our Third Reason His First answer is That he denyeth the Assumption which is asmuch in plaine termes as if he had giuen the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2 3 4. As in the proofe of the Assumption we shewed before But for the more euidence of the trueth we will set downe the proofe of the Assumption in a Sillogisme thus If a Galatian submitt to Circumcision though he hold all the truthes of the Gospell professed in England withall yet be notwithstandinge abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian. But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter Next he answereth That the Galatians were then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal. 1.3 Therefore sayeth he this reason is nought But he may not thus runne away with the matter and deceyue himselfe and his simple fauourers The question is not whether anie Galatians were true Christians or any of their Assemblies true churches For who euer doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truethes of the Gospell nowe professed in Englande and withall submit to Circumcision were in that estate a true christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those assemblies then in that case were by Gods worde to be deemed the true churches of Christ. The Apostle testifieth and saith no This man saith yea Nowe whether of these two we shall beleeue let all men iudge But what is it then that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true churches Gal. 1.2 This man sheweth the reason him selfe the light of the trueth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians sayth he that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed say we of such onely is the suppositiō made in the case afore said But the churches of Galatia sayth he generally were not such but held the sauing faith sound which also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ Iesus and therefore though there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes amongest them which is the “ 1 Cor. 11.19 Actes 20.30 lott and triall of the true churches of God in all ages yet was there not cause to breake the Communion with those assemblies but to proceed with them in the faith and order of Christ and to * Gal. 5.12 1 Cor. 5.7 11 13. cutt off and cast out such troublesome leauen from amongst thē Now this being duely weighed it is nothing for but altogeather against the hauing of communion with the assemblies of this Lande which are not set in the way and order of Iesus Christ as were those churches of Galatia but in the Apostasie and confusion of Antichrist as hath ben at large declared before in the defence of the former Reasons where also that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c. is answered H. IACOB his II. Reply to the 3. Reason TO this your Defence of your Third Reason I answer First it is too impudent a cauillation That you charge me to giue the H. Ghost the lye in denying your Assumption I meant
before The notorious dissolute wicked some were reclaimed all vndertook another profession a new appearance of Christianitie And no doubt the like is to be thought of these as before I obserued touching the ignorant men Now all this was done not intollerablie doubtlesse though I graunt weakely corruptly And very like euen to your owne receiuing into your Church at this time nay more tollerable and more lawfull then yours who to furnish onely one congregation haue receiued many knowne bad men and very ignorant yea and still retaine men full of contention bitter strife 1 Cor. 3.3 In a word this I answer That which disanulleth not a Church gathered and settled That disanulleth it not in the gathering and beginning But such mixtures doe not disanull a Church gathered and setled as appeareth aboue in the scriptures quoted against the First AccusatioÌ„ Mat 23. Luke 2. c. Therfore such mixtures did not disanull our Churches then in their beginning Accusa ∣ tion 3 The Third Accusation is our Assemblies remayne in obedience to the false Antichristian officers c. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diuersitie of sinnes All are not of like detestation before God nor of like coÌ„sequence against vs. I say not that any sinnes are veniall but I say All sinnes by their nature are mortal yet doe they not al alike abolish vs from Christ nor depriue vs of the glory of God Now this sinne of outward church orders is not of the most heynous nor extreamest disobedience There are sinnes against the * 1 Cor. 15.3 3. 4. RoÌ„ 4.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11 12 13 14. foundation and there are sinnes that stande with the foundation ibid. wherein men liuing and dying ignorantly without perticular repeÌ„tance may be saued Such were the sinnes of the Iewish church and estate in Christes time and after as “ Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke euen till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostom Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. in King Edward dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially touching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all conuicted nowe and sinne against our coÌ„scieÌ„ces as they did not in those times It is vtterly false a palpable vntrueth Whosoeuer knoweth any thing in our church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct touching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged euen of ignoraÌ„ce in a thousand to one many holding not of the simplest this present gouernement to be th' only true right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent lawful very few indeed scarse to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intollerable And in King Edwards time whosoeuer considereth shall finde that the godly learned ProtestaÌ„ts then were not vtterly ignorant of this poinct of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the times neither were abolished from Christ And surely touching the Iewes they were all generally more conuicted then that Iesus was the Christ then we are now that the Prelacie is of Antichrist yet they remayned a church stil because generally indeed they were not plainly conuicted Thus theÌ„ this our sinne is * See the 2. sortes of fundamental sinnes in the 2. Reply to your 7. Reason before pag. 48. no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole assemblies Therfore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as he vncharitably speaketh O beware of rash and hasty iudging euen of one brother Rom. 14.3 4 13. how much more of such so many whole assemblies professing Christ in EnglaÌ„d Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our euil but we warne you not to curse vs in our good which indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs froÌ„ that sinceritie which els we should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely that is without affection partialitie euen of him that is despised Better it is and more Christian like euen to offende in too much compassion and patience especially towardes so many hundreth thousands by whom we know nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and seueritie vniust anger Mat. 5. â—2 Howbeit this were not indeed to offend as hath bene aboue shewed And briefly in twoo words thus I conclude it farther that That faith religioÌ„ taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeue and obey the same true Christians such as so liuing and dying may be saued But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand they haue denyed it Howbeit for answer I referre them partly to that which here hath bene said before and especiallie to that which is replied to their Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent and Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique church assemblies in England to be true Christians REASON II. F. Iohns SEcondly the Priest doth not celebrate or pronounce any marriage without the married first giue their consent But the Prelats make Ministers without before the peoples consent Therefore the comparison holdeth not H. Iacob FIrst it is very vaine to make this any matter viz. the peoples coÌ„senting either before or after the Prelats ordeyning For whether before or after it is in nature and value all one They in their ignoraÌ„ce hauing respect only to the Prelats act And if it were so that the Priest should sometymes marie a couple the Maide being meerly enforced and denying consent yet not striuing nor resisting and a while after shall willingly agree and like Out of question there is now true wedlock betweene them Euen so the case is betwixt the Church and the Minister 2. But what will they except here against those Pastors amoÌ„gst vs that were first chosen by the people they first professing their consent and are after instituted inducted by the Praelat Many are thus called amongst vs the most haue the peoples consent euen togeather at their first inducting at least wise they haue soone after by the peoples submitting mainteyning them euen presently 3. Lastly in a word where he saith the Praelats make Ministers without and before the peoples consent We “ Beza in Act 14.23 Fenner against Bridges Pag. 148. affirme that they make not the Pastor at all indeed and in truth but only supposedly It is the Churches consent that maketh him