Egypt should knowe the beautie of Sion ther is a cloude betweene you and us we have blessed be our God a pillar of fire before us An other fault you say in my former reason is that because the censure of the Church should redresse defaultes therfore ther needeth no liturgie Nay take all with you No fault can be censured that is not a transgression against the rules of Gods worde and those to be censured by the doctrine and admonitions of the Church therfore we neede no liturgies To the worde of God onely ought all men to be bounde by covenant and for the transgressions therof onely to be censured G. GIFFORD The Church hath this power to ordeine according to Gods worde and to appointe such orders in matters of circumstance c. as shall most fuly serve to edification And then these orders being established the Church is to drive men to the observation of them I. GREENWOOD First in this your papisticall mudde I must tell you your reading of mens writinges for prayer is a falle worship of God and not a matter of circumstance And for matters of order and circumstance which are no part of the worship ther can be no other lawes made of them then Christ hath made As for ordeyning of lawes in the Church it is to plead for unwritten verities and to make the lawe of God unsufficient neyther can it be according to the worde to make anie lawe that God hath not made but an adding to his worde which is execrable pride these your wordes then according to Gods worde was but a cloake to cover the grossenes of your position for the worde ordeyne or create lawes is to make some that are not made before let us then see your cleane sentence to be this The Church hath authority in matters of order and circumstance to make and ordaine lawes in his Church for his worship now see how you contradict these Scriptures Rev. 22.18.19 Prov. 30.5.6 everie worde of God is pure etc. put nothing to his worde least he reproove thee and thou be found a liar likewise Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 and Gal. 3.15 though it be but a mans covenant when it is confirmed no man doth abrogate it or superordeine anie thing to it And the second Commaundement forbiddeth anie such humaine tradition in the worship of God all the Popes trinckets might be brought in by the same grounde We would willingly have seene your warrant for this doctrine your bare worde is not sufficient to impose other lawes then God hath made upon his Church This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to give libertie to make lawes in the worship of God Yet you will goe furder that such lawes being ordeyned established by publique authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to drive men to the observation of the same By your judgment our Saviour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatique that would not himself nor his Disciples obey and observe the traditions of the Elders And what saith he unto pleaders for traditions It is thus written Marke 7.5 then asked him the Pharises and Scribes whie walke not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders but eate meate with unwashed hands Then be answeared surely Isay hath prophesied well of you hypocrites as it is written this people honoreth me with their lippes but their heartes are far from me But they worship me in vayne teaching doctrines mens precepts For you lay the commaundement of God aside and observe the tradition of men And to helpe foorth your evill matter instead of proof from the scripture you fal out into furious exclamation against them that desire onely to have the worde practised saying who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practise of your anabaptisticall freedome in which you deny the Church to have power to ordeine and impose any orders lett all men judge the venemousnes of this tongue Christ pronunceth them accursed that add or superordeyne any thing to his worde and you pronounce judgement of them that onely obey his worde Shall it be said that Mr Gifford holdeth that the onely practise of Gods worde would be the cause of iunumerable divisions and offences This hath bene Satans old accusation in the mouth of the most enimies of Christs Gospell nowe it must be Mr Giffords accusation of Gods ordinances to be insufficient unperfect etc. fearfull is his Apostacy from that truth he hath knowen I take it it is more like to be Anabaptistry to practise any thing without warrant of the word to make their own devises lawes in Gods worship then to doe nothing but what God hath commaunded within the limites of our callings For the franticke ministery it came of your owne wordes that therfore you must needes have a leiturgie because ther are manie franticke spirits in the ministerie then I say it is like you have a frantick ministerie that cannot be governed without another liturgie then Christs Testament For their great giftes you speake of I will not compare with them My reason from the Colossians was that as the Church there is commaunded to admonish their Pastor Archippus if he transgressed and to stirr him up to his busines so all ministers that caused divisions contrary to the doctrine of Christ were to be admonished and avoyded if they repent not so that the worde of God and admonition by the same if they trāsgresse is the waye to keepe all men in due order and not imposing Leiturgies upon the Church besides Christs Testament And where you collected thus that if read Prayers and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous then wher will you finde a visible Church say you I answered that the true Church might erre even in this poynte though not in like height of sinne Then you desire that the Churches of England may find like favour at our hand to which I answeare let him that handleth that question with you shew you how your sinnes herein exceede other countries and persequute such as reprove you Your church as you all it cannot pleade ignorance Your rayling speaches of blind Schismatiques Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart if you cannot prove your Church to be the established Church of Christ they light all upon your self Ther are none Schismatiques but such as departe from the faith shew wherein we have transgressed will not be reformed In the meane tyme you are Schismatiques from Christ in that you practise the Statutes of Omry You chardge us with pride for that you saye we imagine to knowe more then all the Churches uppon earth This also hath bene Satans old weapon to deface the truth Ierem. 18.18 why maye not a simple babe in Christ see that which whole nations have not seene we cannot but speake the things Gods Worde teacheth us if we speake trueth you need not oppose that we judge anie man it is the worde of God shall judge us all and I saye it is
things in the Lorde and if they commaund vs anie thing contrary to the lawe of God we then patientlie suffer without resistance or rebellious thoughtes The freedome then we have to speake of here which Christ had purchased for vs is first that triumphe ouer Hell Deathe and damnation through the merites of Christ apprehended by faith wayted for in hope Rom. 8. Secondly that because we were sonnes by election he giveth vs the spirit of adoption and sanctification whereby we mortifie the fleshe have power and dominion over sinne that it shall never reigne in vs more vnto condemnation repēting dayly of our trespasses craving pardon for our hidden sinnes and secret faultes Thirdly we are through the same spirit and worde of trueth delivered from all subiection of Antichist of the false Church false ministerie false government etc. And they that have not this fredome are not by outward profession the servauntes of Christ Furder we have freedom from all traditious of men that seing we are bought with a price we are no longer servants of men to be in bondage to anie beggarly rudimentes or devises of men but in all peaceable manner to worship and serve God within the limites of our callings according to the word of God as it is reuealed vnto vs We have freedome to speake the trueth with all boldnes though all men should inhibite vs we would not haue the doctrine limited stinted bought and sould for Iewish tythes or mercenarie stipendes We have freedome to separate from such false Prophets as yourself to come out of Babel etc. And in the true Church to reprove and withstand anie sinne or traditions of men in due order only to be guided governed by Christes lawes and ordinances In all this I trust you shall not find any Anabaptistrie in the freedom we professe this is the truth of the Gospell wherby we are made free Thus then we still affirme that they which stand in open known bondage to sinne are the servants of sinne and not of Christ till they repent by outward profession Furder that all which stand members of your parish assemblies stand not members of CHRIST by outward profession but in bondage to a false and Antichristian ministery government worship etc. and the bond woeman and her sonne must be cast out Furder for all liturgies and other devises of men besides the canonicall Scriptures and lively graces of his Spirit we hold they ought not to be brought into the publique assemblies nor imposed vpon mens conscience But if anie will write such or reade such let it be for their private vse as all other mens writtings we despise not any directions by word or writting that may furder vs anie way to the practize of Gods ordinances yet may they nether be imposed vpon mens consciences not be made a part of Gods worship The Lord therfore that hath thus far far fourth discouered the chaff and mift of Antichrist delusions euen to babes and sucklings publish the glorious light of his blessed Gospel that the peopel may see the counterfeit iuglinges of all such false prophets and come out from amongst them that you may be ashamed of your execrapale wares and forsake your Romish Priesthoode and give glory to God that yet offereth grace Amen Christs vnworthie witnes for the truth of his Gospell IOHN GREENWOOD 9 Other Arguments to prove that all set formes of prayer to be used for prayer are unlawfull 1. WE finde that all the holy men of God according to their present need occasion used to pray in the spirit through the helpe of the Holy Ghost which God hath shed in the hearts of all his Children without reading or saying by rote any nūber of words and for this we have plentifull Examples in Abraham Isaak Iacob c. 2. Not any prescript Leiturgy can possibly be an ordinance of Christ because the Church without it may perfectly and entirely worship God I say performe all the parts of holy and spirituall worship this appeares by the constant and generall practice of all the primitive Churches who truly worshipped the Lord many yeares before any such read stinted service was devised or imposed 3. This external meanes and manner of worshipping God in prayer is no where found in the written word by the prescript whereof he is to be worshipped whatsoever the Iewes Fable of Ezra or the Papists of S. Iames or S. Peter Yea I doe to the contrarie affirme that it did not seem good to the Apostles the last penmen of the Holy Ghost that any certaine formes should be repeated or read out of a prayer booke For if it had they would have given commandment to the Churches for the practice thereof 4. Reading of prayer in the act of prayer is directly contrary to that act and nature of prayer For in prayer we doe poure out matter to weet the holy conceptions of our minde from within to without that is from the heart to God On the contrarie in reading we doe receive and admitt matter from without to within that is from the booke into our heart Ergo c. 5. The stinted and devised formes doe quench the spirit of prayer and this appeares in that men are so strictly tyed unto them as till they stint be out the spirit which the Lord gives his children may not suggest one thought or word otherwise Neither when that is out any more then what next followes in the prescribed prayers and this is contrary to 1 Cor. 12 7. 6. We finde it promised that under the Gospell the spirit should be plentifully poured out which he dayly graciously performeth in furnishing his children with spiritual gifts who accordinglie pray or at least all may not with prescript words but with such as the spirit gives them utterance God preparing their heart and bending his eare 7. The truth brings forth no absurditie but this doth For Example the spirit sayth the Apostle speaking of all Christians helpeth our infirmities for we know not what to pray as we ought Yes Paul with your leave right well for we have in our Leiturgie what wee ought to pray word for word and these things we can aske whether the spirit be present or no 8. As it were a ridiculous thing for a Child when he should aske of his Father bread fish or any other thing to read it to him out of a paper So is it for the Children of God to read unto God their Requests even a most foolish and riduculous thing 9. As the reasons published to the world against the reading of the Apocrypha bookes in Churches will serve as much and as well to condemne all devised and imposed formes of prayer So likewise the arguments brought against kneeling before the bread and wine in the act of receiving will prove that to fall downe before the common prayer booke is every way as superstitious sinfull a thing And so much the reader shall finde certaine if he will indifferently compare the things together FINIS Rom. 8.26 Gal 4.6 2. cor. 4.13 Psalm 51 17 Psalm 42 43. I. Sam. 1 17 Psal. 119 Rev. 2. 11. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Other foundatiō can no mā laye c. Gal. 3. 15 Heb. 2 3 4. 9. 14 Mat. 5. 18. 2 Timot. 3 15. 16. 17 Rev. 22. 18. 19. 2. Pet. 1. 20. 1 Cor. 12 7. Iam. 4.14 Rom 8.7 and 11 34.1 Cor. 2.16 3.19 1 Tim. 4. 5. Act. 16.13.13 Tim. 2.1 34 5. Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19.2 Tim. 1.13 1 Tim. 6 14 1 Cor 2.16 and 2 20. Mr. Barrowes refutation discovery etc. Rev. 24 9 10.11.12 Esa. 52.11 Ierem. 51 6 45. Mat. 116 Rom. 8.26
More vvorke for PRIESTS OR AN ANSWERE TO GEORGE GIFFORDS pretended defence of Read Prayers and devised Leitourgies comprised in the first part of his booke Intituled A short Treatise against the Donatists of England Wherein Is proved that the serving of God in such away and manner is a superstitious and vaine worship Written By JOHN GREENWOOD Christs faythfull Martyr Here-unto Is added by another man many other arguments against stinted service and booke prayer Luk. 16. 15. That which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God Printed in the yeere 1640. The Preface MY first writing being about that spiritual exercise of prayer and true invocation of Gods reverend name whereby the distressed soule of man loaden with the burden of sinne compassed also about with so many deceitfull enimies continual assaults of Satan rebellion of the flesh entisements of the world etc. seeketh daylie help of God the Father giver of all good giftes having thorough Iesus Christ free accesse by the direction of his holy spirit for all occasions to unburden it self of whatsoever grief or occasion of thankes it is moved with I ought stil and by Gods assistance shall keepe me in the meeknes of the spirit not withstanding his unchristian railinges slanders reproches against me the truth I then shewed that no other prayer could utter and ease the severall occasions distresses of this conscience and that no other mans writing could speake for this soule unto God but the heart and mouth of him that prayeth for himself or is chosen the mouth of many uttering to God his or their mindes for their present wātes or occasion urgeth and the spirit giveth utterance And I further proved that onelie this prayer pleaseth God and is grounded on faith to this effect I brought many reasons out of Gods worde admiring the ignorance of this age wherin having had the gospell of Christ thus many years in our owne language to search and try all things by whole congregations doe make no other praier to God thē reading over a certeine number of wordes upon a booke from yeare to yeare moneth to moneth day to day c. the same matter and words as they were stinted even out of that Portuis englished out of Antichrists masse booke besides private reading of menswritings instead of praying And seing this counterfeit shew of worship and pretended prayers was made common marchandize in every assemblie by this Antichristian preisthood and that al men every where were compelled to bowe downe hereunto and to offer up such counterfeit sacrifices I perceaved the first principle of Religion which is to invocate the name of the true God through the meditation of Christ in spirit and truth with heart and voyce for our present wantes according to the will of God was never yet sincerely taught by these time serving Priests But as an agreable service to the humors of earthlie minded men which have not the spirit of God this ware was thrust upon al people They wel knowing that such a ministery and such a Church of wordlings could never have stood without such a Samaritan worship Egyptian calf and like earthlie devises to counterfeit a Religion al men inclyned to some And long have I heard this pretended worship inveyed against by many sometimes zealous for the errours and confused order thereof Yet could I not heare anie to sett downe or teach which was the true prayer that only pleased God manie contriving divers formes of wordes as though they had knowen the heart of man counselled thē to reade them day unto day yeare unto yeare at evening morning dinner supper c. by portion measure and stint as an offering to God what state soever the soule was in not teaching the difference betweene reading upon a booke and prayer unto God all the tyme So that true and only prayer hath not beene taught all this tyme those that knewe how to pray aright neglect it this reading being most easie as they thinke and they aptest therunto compelled in the publique assemblies thus to mocke with God after the manner of the papists mattins true zeale no where founde but in the persequuted remnant These my first writings caryed abroode by such as desired true instructiō and willing to make others partakers of such benefits as God imparted unto them it fell into Mr GIFFORDS hand Who as it seemeth being a marchaunt of such ware fynding the gaine of the priesthood to depend here upon or as he saith the peace and uniformitie of the Church made head unto it and that not with purpose as the fruite of his labour sheweth to edifie others but standing himself a minister to this Liturgie having made shipwrack of that conscience he sometimes was thought to have with all bitternes of spirit and carnal wisdome having no more savour of grace in his writings then there is taste in the white of an egge fleeth upō me with uncharitable raylings slanders c. And loadeth not only me but all the faithfull that walke by the rule of Gods worde with opprobrious titles of Donatists Brownists Anabaptists Heretiques Schismatiques seditious foolish frantick c. to bring not onely us but the truth of God into contempt with our Sovereigne Prince and all that feare God for he ceaseth not with laying al reproches he can devise upon our persons as one of those Locusts Rev. 9. whose similitudes are like unto horses prepared to battell whose faces like men but their teeth as the teeth of Lyons But also perverteth blaspheameth by all meanes defaceth the truth offered to him Welseing the natural mā perceiveth not the things of the spirit of God I wil speak not here of the giftes of the spirit but of the grace of God which sanctifieth the same many having Charismata that have not Charin And seeing I am alreadie thus rent Gods truth delivered by me troden under his feete I will followe the councell of Salomon who forewarneth me that he which reproveth a skorner receaveth to himself shame and he that rebuketh the wicked himself a blot And so tourne me from him leaving him to the consideration of his owne words where he sayeth in his Epistle to the reader He that seemeth most zealous in Religion and refrayneth not his tongue hath but bitternes in his heart in stead of heavenly Zeale And though nothing els can be looked for at their bandes that are Apostate from that light they have sometymes themselves published of vvhich sorte the worlde was never more full yet for the good of Gods chosen scattered abroade and for the defence of Gods trueth I cannot holde my tongue And for the more playnenes I will answeare as to him though I minde not to have anie more to doe with him till God give him repentance Wishing grace by the direction of Gods holy spirit to him that readeth to weigh both sides uprightly and to follow the truth to his owne salvation JO GRENWOOD More works for
by writing to be thrust upon the publique assemblies you are wide and now iustifie homilies insteed of preaching and written praiers instead of praying shew your warrant The CHVRCHES power is limited by the word G. GIFFORD When the prayers be framed and composed of nothing but the doctrine of the Scripture and after the rules of true prayer nothing is brought in which God hath not commanded J. GREENWOOD THis might have come in before your raylings but you sawe it was too silly where is that commaundement of God that all mens writinges in forme of prayer agreable to the Scriptures should be brought into the publique assemblies your bare worde is not enough to put me to silence And when you have gott them into the Church you must prove that God hath commaunded they should be read for praier Where I said our Sauiour Christ never vsed the wordes when he praied in that forme of praier he gave to his Disciples nether commaunded his Disciples to say over these wordes nether do we reade that ever his Apostles did use them or enforced others to vse anie certaine number of wordes you say I spake vntrulie For say you the Disciples desired him to reach them to pray as Iohn taught his Disciples and he commanded them when you pray say Our Father etc. Luke 11. and S. Math. an Apostle hath deliuered the same to the whole Church I answer I have never heard that Iohn Baptist taught his Disciples to say over certeyne wordes nether can it be gathered by our Sauiour Christes answere for he answeared not alwaies the verie demaunde according to their wordes but thereupon tooke occasion to instruct them as the sawe neede And I have proved by the 6. of Math. that our Saviour did not commaunde them to say over the very wordes when they prayd for the word Houtos in Mathew signifieth after this maner Againe that Math. recordeth not the very number or the very same wordes that Luke doth And now I reason thus if Christ had commaunded those very wordes to be said over in praying then we must alwaies when we pray say over those wordes for in Math. 6. he saith when you pray pray thus Our Father etc. The etc. The word when sheweth that this commaundement is to be observed at all tymes And then the Apostles sinned in praying other wordes Acts. 4.24.25 Furder it being the most summary forme of praier most ample most perfect etc. if those wordes were commaunded to be said over then we ought not to vse any others for he is accursed that bringeth not the best offrings he hath Malach 1.14 By all these it is euident that our Saviour nor his Evangelists tyed no man to the very wordes saying over but according to that forme and those instructions and now leave of your popish dreames Yet you would make men belive I reasoned thus that the Apostles did not nether our Saviour himself or anie that we reade of vse these wordes in praier therfore they did not use it Nay I said they did not vse these verie wordes in their praiers but vsed other wordes according to their particular wants as our Saviour in the 17. of Iohn is said to do therfore he nether vsed nor commaunded others to say over those wordes And so I may well cōclude that to impose certaine wordes to be read or said by roate for praying vpon the Church especiallie mens writings is an intollorable pride even a setting of men in the place of God Also that to vse them or bowe downe vnto them in that order is sinne and a breach of Gods lawe The fourth Argument Because true prayer must be of faith vttered with heart and lively voice it is presumptuous ignorance to bring a booke to speake for vs vnto God c. The fift Argument To worship the true God after an other maner then he hath taught is Idolatrie But he Commaundeth vs to come vnto him heavie loaden with contrite hearts to cry unto him for our wantes c. Therfore we may not vse reading of a dead letter instead of powring fourth out petitions The Sixt Argument We must strive in praier with continuance c. But we cannot strive in praier and be importunate with continuance reading vpon a booke Therfore we must not reade when we should pray G. GIFFORD These 3. I ioyned togeather as having no weight you say I answeare by plaine contradiction without Scripture c. And after wardes is not my bare deniall as good as you bare affirmation c. I. GREENWOOD STay your selves and wonder they are blind and make blind Is ther anie doctrine more spirituall anie more inculcated by the holy Ghost thē this accesse vnto God in the mediation of Christ by his owne spirit to make our mindes knowne vnto God to offer vp the fruits of his owne spirit in vs and fetch encrease from him by this secreat worke of true inuocation with the heart and voice This colloquie with the high maiestie of God is it a matter of no weight to learne to discerne between diverse exercises of the spirit and to exercise his graces aright according to his will Right is it said the wisedome of God is foolishnes to the naturall man But Mr GIFFORD wil say he graunteth the propositious true and weightie maters it is the Assumptions that be so frivolous as he said a litle after ridiculous wel let them he weyed 1. That reading instead of praying is not a powring fourth of the heart by lively voyce 2. That it is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke in the very action of powring fourth our heart as we pretend 3. That it is not an vnburdening of a contrite heart by faith but an ignorant action to reade for praying 4. That we cannot strive in praier continue in praier be importunate etc. by reading vpon a booke These are matters he thinketh of so litle weight the bare deniall and contradiction wherof he holdeth of such credit that it must suffice for answere seing he saith he hath before proved the vse of reading See here he caleth it the vse of reading He could not say that reading is praying nether that these two exercises of our Faith can be vsed both in one instant as one action I have shewed that proseuche anagnosis praying and reading are divers actions both of the minde and body let the reader consider what weight then this matter is of to talk with the living God But for the benefit of such as have grace to savour the things that are of God I will a litle illustrate the Assumptions at least some of them 1. That it is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke when I should powre fourth mine owne heart the word itself must be considered the Apostle commaundeth saying 1. Thessaloniaus 5.19 extinguish ye not the spirit Now to suppresse and leaue vnvttered the passions of our owne heart by the worke
or innouating anie part of the same as is called a commaundement to be kept without spott till the appearing of our Lorde Iesus Christ Nowe to make an other leiturgie is to lay other foundation and to make an other Gospell not that ther is an other Gospell but that there are some willing to pervert the Gospell of Christ Then your leiturgies to which you are sworne and by which you administer being as you cannot denie an other leiturgie then Christes Testament is plainely an other Gospell for the Canons and rules you prescribe and impose are such as he hath not prescribed or commaunded or at the best a transforming of his ordinances Now if you should say you do nothing but make laws of particular thinges collected from the scriptures and with that collour impose your leiturgies we have shewed the vnlawfullnes of bringing anie mans writinges as rules into the Church For the explaining of the whole will of Christ so far as is meet for vs he hath given vs his officers to administer according to his liturgie by liuely voyce and due execution of all things by one rule Making then a newe litourgia you must also make a new ministerie for Christes ministerie cannot administer after a counterfeit liturgie And that Antichrist was the cheif Innouator of this liturgie howsoever the thing might be long a working by litle litle it is plaine when he is called Antikeimenos that opposite man or laier of an other foundation Now we must not make all liturgies beside the Testam. of like wickedness or blasphemie But how neere the most heynousest yours approach let him that answereth the other part of your booke witnesse vnto me Nowe where I said you had confessed that you never read in the Scriptures any warrant to reade praiers vnto God you say now I knowe I have falsified your wordes Surely it would be knowen for I would not willinglie so doe your wordes you say were these to your remembrance God never commaunded a man to reade praier vpon the booke Is not this the same that I saye you confesse ther is no warrant for reading prayer is ther anie thing warranted in his worship that he hath not commaunded Then you aske me if I will gather thus is it not expresse commaunded therfore it is not warranted No you forgot the worde expressie to help your self to saye vnsaye I gathered that because you said absolutely it was not commaunded therfore it was not warranted Here you come againe to shewe your ignorance in the scriptures to say ther is not anie exprese commaundement to vse praier before or after doctrine And remember you here will have it a commaundement and said before you hold it not of necessitie G. GIFFORD There would sundry inconveniences growe for want of a Lyturgie or prescript formes of publique praiers I. GREENWOOD STil I must put you in minde of the wisedome of that gouernour of his house the builder beginner and finisher of our Faith Christ Iesus he forsawe what inconvenience would haue growne if either men or Angells should make newe liturgies or other formes of praier then he hath prescribed for the publique assemblies Here therfore you deeply chardge him not to have donne all thinges that were needful in not prescribing you more formes thē he hath donne or not suffered learned divines to impose their owne writinges vnto God But see what the Scripture saith who hath knowen the mynde of the Lord that he might instruct him Againe wher is the wise where the Scribe where the disputer of this world hath not God made the wisedome of this world foolishnes To put you out of doubt then that we neede not any newe liturgie nor anie mens writinges to be brought into the publique assemblies the Holie Ghost saith 2. Timot. 3.16 The whole Scripture is Theopneustos inspired of God and profitable vnto doctrine vnto reproof vnto correction vnto erudition which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be absolute perfect fully furnished vnto everie good worcke Nowe if onelye the Scriptures be Theopnestos and sufficient to make Gods childrē absolutely perfect even fully furnished to every good work what blasphemie is it to say sundrie inconvenience would growe if mens writinges were not imposed vpon the publique assemblies And in this your wisedome let us see what is the chiefest inconveniency that would growe You say everye franticke spirit of which sort ther be manie in the ministerie would not only be unlike themselves but varie from others I answered and still doe that the Papists have not so weake a reason for their Idolatrous Liturgies Rubricks and Canons You say it appeareth by all my Arguments how meete a man I am to judge the weight of reasons alleadged by the Papists and others well I am weake and you strong foolish you wise yet might you have shewed me a weaker reason which they alleadge for their constitutions ecclesiasticall as they cal thē But my chief answere was wherby you might have beene satisfied that if it were but in Parases the ministerie should differ it is no sufficient cause to ordeine liturgies And if they offend in matter of doctrine or conversation the censure of the Church should help that The first you graunt the second also you confesse that the Church should censure such thinges But you say ther are sundry other differences in administration of publique praiers Sacraments as in order and ceremonies which the Ch. is is to have regard of and not to leave arbitrarie All other ceremonies in Gods worship then Christ and his Apostles have prescribed us are diabolicall and not Apostolicall Then for all thinges donne in the Church in those publique actions the offenders must be admonished if they trasgresse the rules of the word And for the others you speake of you meane circumstances of time place kneeling sitting standing c. of them there can be no furder lawes then Christ hath prescribed that all things be donnne to edifying in comelynes and decency c. of these to set particular lawes were to breake the lawe of God which leaveth them in the Churches liberty as neede requireth to the glorie of God In these thinges to doe anie thing contrarie to the generall rules of order edifying decencye etc. the transgressour is by those rules to be instructed admonished and censured Well here you have made a faire hand to make read prayers but a matter of order which is all the worship you have to bring in mens writings into the publique assemblies to make thē ether rules to bind the conscience and so put them in the place of Gods booke or to reade them over for praying is but a matter of order well then put them in your cornerr Capp we have enough of rules for the ordering of Christs spouse without such Babilonish ware Here you say mine experience is not so great as my boldness I passe not to be judged of you it is not like that the enchaunters of
an old papish Argument to reason thus all Churches doe such a thing therfore it is lawfull except you hold with the Pope that the Church cannot erre which were blasphemous You are not well pleased that I will not say it is no Church that hath a liturgie imposed upon it and because you have so often slandered me that I hold it so you take great paynes to conclude it I have said that to impose mens writings to be read in stead of praying is to worship God after a false maner that it is a devise of Antichrist a deade letter quenching the spirit not of faith Idolatrous changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll breaking our Christian libertye and so most detestable By these speaches I condemne all Churches say you this is not true I condemne but the sinne But you have sayd J deny that to be the Church that hath any thing imposed I say you speak an open untrueth and remember the judgment of him that inventeth and maketh lyes And God give you grace to repent if you belong to him The consideration of this our discourse I hartelie commendo to be dulie and uprightly wayed of all that feare God who graunt us his grace to forsake any sinne where it shal be shewed us by how weake instruments soever it be reproved and pardon me all my defaults in this my hastie answeare Thus have we seene the unlawfullnes of thrusting mens writings upon publique assemblies and reading instead of praying A generall Argument against their worship in respect of their present estate both of Ministers and people The Prayers of such ministers and people as stand under a false government are not acceptable not onely because they aske amisse but because they keepe not his Commaundements The prayers of such Ministers and people as be subject to Antichrist are abhominable Those Ministers and people which stand subject to the Bishops and their Courts are subject to Antichrist c. Therfore their prayers c. G. GIFFORD These do concerne the third and fourth accusation and therfore the answere is included in the answere to them Yet I take exception against the first that the Church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundements touching externall governement and yet be the true Church of God I alleadged the Church that was holden captive in Babylon c. J. GREENWOOD HEre after your acustomed manner you offer me great wronge first insteade of answeare you alter the question very subtilie then you dismember my former answeare and not onely so but you have nether let my former answere be answered nor printed Thus you alter the question answere not where the proposition speaketh of a ministery people standing under a false government you say the church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundements in externall government wherof I never doubted what is this then but to deceave your Reader both to judge sinisterlie of me and be drawen from the truth himself But indeede you meane not this holden by force of civile bondage or persequution for then ther were no difference betweene us and mine Argument should stand untouched You affirme then that the Church may stand under a false government inforced therunto by the tyranny of the enemie and yet in that estate be the true apparant Church by open profession which is nothing els then that the Church may professe Christianisme and Antichristianisme both at a tyme subject in minde to Christ and subject to Antichrist in outwatde obedience That you hold this doctrine in this place the processe of your matter proveth and to make all plaine your wordes in the last writing which here you summe up were these But if the Church at any tyme be by mayne force restrayned from some priviledges or have some government set over it which agreeth not with Gods worde which it cannot avoid ct See now how smoothly this man hath put away the crosse of Christ by teaching men to stand under a government contrarie to Christes I thought the ordinances of the newe Testament had beene a kingdome that could not be shaken Heb. 12.28 that none could have beene a member of Christ that receaveth the marcke of the Beast though it be but in his hand or could be holden a member of Christ by outward profession that here had beene the patience of the Sanicts to suffer unto death rather then to bowe downe either in minde or bodie to an other government then Christs How is he a Lorde to them that are not governed by him Well I needed not to have stod upon this doctrine but that be nether printed my former answere nor answered in these pointes and myne owne copie taken from me by the Bishops so that this man may retract what he will accuse as please him if he have any common honestie let my former answeare be seene But to prove the Church may be subject to an other government then Christs which is even to say that a man may give all alleageance by outward practise to the Kinge of Spaine and yet be her Majest. true subject He saith the Church was holden captive in Babylon where he as cunningly hideth himself as before though in my last writing I urged him to answere whether the Church in Babylon was subject to their Idolatrie or no To the civile power I doubt not they were But if the Priestes and Levites stood Priests to the Idolatrous worship in Babylon whether the people of Israel bowed downe to the outward practise and obedience of their Idolatrie or no then if they did so whether they stoode by profession the children of God or apostate in that estate None of these thinges have you answeared me Let the examples of Hanania Mishaell and Azaria testifie Dan: 3. The people that retourned repented their transgressions wher they had any of them sinned and made a new covenant with the Lorde before they were receaved Ezia 9.14.15 and 10. cap. 2.3.8 Yea the voyce of God was this come out of her my people and touche no uncleane thing and I willbe your God We are before thee saith Ezra in our trespasse we cannot stand before thee because of it You never renounced your Antichristian ministerie you never made a new covenant since the deepe defection of Poperye but still minister in that kingdome and wil not repent yet boast your selves to be the Church of God cryinge out the Temple the Temple I answeare then directlie that whiles you stand subject unto and practise and communicate with other orders and governments then Christes you are not by outwarde profession the churches of Christ I may not with you omitt the worde willfull because you persequute the light so much higher is your sinne Here I must forewarne the Reader with diligence to consider Mr. Giffords disagreement and mine he having accused me of a fundamentall heresie as he callet hit wheras he himself maintayneth most grosse errors wherof J reproved