times and so their interpretations of Scriptures often more difficult to be understood then the Scriptures that they interpret this also is very considerable that it will be out of the compass and reach of the most persons of ordinary rank to procure all the writings of the Fathers and Councils that are yet extant as we do not beleeve that any of you are so well stored as that you have such a Library wherein all the Fathers or most of them might be consulted which yet were necessary to be procured if their unanimous consent must be the rule for interpretation of Scripture when there is a doubt or difficulty And if some persons might be found of that ability as to procure the Works of all the Fathers yet it is not easie to imagin how even the Learned though Divines much less the simple and ignorant could ever be able to reade over all their Works compare all the Fathers together and their interpretations that so they might when there was a doubt or difficulty gather what was the unanimous consent of the Fathers touching the interpretation of a Text the sense whereof we questioned And hereupon it will follow that what you propound as the rule yea and the best rule too for interpreting of Scripture is so farre from being such that it is a very unfit and unmeet rule being such as few or none if any at all are able in all cases or the most to make use of But by this time we doubt not notwithstanding your great confidence touching the sureness of your rule that it is manifest from the reasons we have given unto which we might add many more if there were need that your rule for the interpretation of the Scriptures participates not of the nature of what is to be a rule and therefore however the exposition of the Church Fathers and Councils is not to be despised yet it is not to be made a rule but that the onely sure rule for the interpreting of the Scriptures is the Scripture it self But because you alledge something for your assertion we shall now in the last place examine it of what nature and strength it is And â— You quote the late King in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 although his assertion is more limited then yours as from the words you cite is clear and manifest And as touching that which his words are alledged for we must say that such a Church Government as is not found instituted in Scripture in regard of the substantials of it is therefore contrary to the commands of Scripture because not found instituted there and this we affirm touching that Episcopall Government that you plead for that superiority of a Bishop above a Presbyter in regard of order and jurisdiction being a meer device of man without and against Scripturall warrant as it was that that was unknown to the primitive Church in the more ancient and purer times and of which afterward 2. But you further add and say that except your rule for interpreting of Scripture be admitted of we shall seem to abound in our own sense and to utter our own fancies or desires to be believed on our bare word and so to give way to private interpretation whereas we should deliver that sense which hath been aforetime given by our forefathers and forerunners in the Christian faith unto which we say that whether it be the interpretation that we ourselves shall give of Scripture or it be the interpretation of others however Fathers or Councils and forerunners in the Christian faith yet if it be an interpretation inferred or brought to the Scripture and not found in the Scripture the uttering of that interpretation is the uttering our own or other mens fancies and so is that private interpretation of Scripture which the Apostle Peter 2d Epist ch 1. ver 20. condemns and to whose words there you do here point it being the Holy Ghost the author of Scripture whose interpretation is that publike interpretation that the whole Church and every member thereof is to give heed to and is that which is opposed to the private interpretation mentioned as the Apostle shews ver 21. in the words following But seeing you do here urge the very popish argument and that text which they quote touching the rule they make for interpretation of Scripture in direct opposition to our Protestant Divines it is hence very clear that your opinion touching the rule of interpreting of the Scriptures and judg of controversies in matters of Religion which you make to be the Churches exposition and consent of Fathers and Councils is the very same with theirs and wherein you approve not your selves to be either sound Protestants or to own the Doctrine of the Church of England against the Papists in this particular 3. Yet you go on and urge another argument for when there is a difference about interpretation of Scripture not to admit for a rule the exposition of the Church consent of Fathers and Councils you say that is dominari fidei to Lord it over the faith of others but we say as we have shewed before that to impose a necessity of admitting the interpretation given by the Church Fathers Councils when it is not evident from the Text so expounded either the words of it scope or other circumstances of it the things going before or following after or from some other Texts with which it is compared this is certainly dominari fidei to Lord it over the faith of Gods people and which Paul though so great an Apostle and immediately and infallibly inspired would not presume to do 2 Cor. 1. â—4 The Church having onely a Ministery committed to her which is onely to propound that sense of Scripture which the Scripture it self gives and no more 4. But thus say you the best and ablest defenders of our Protestant Religion defended it against the Papists though out of the word of God too giving the sense which the Fathers unanimously in the Primitive Church and Councils gave But this is not the question whether our Divines defended the Protestant Religion against the Papists not onely out of the Word of God but from the testimonie also of Fathers and Councils but whether they did ever make the unanimous consent of the Fathers and Councils the judg of controversies or rule for interpreting of Scripture He that shall hold the affirmative here doth plainly shew he is a stranger to the writings of the best and ablest defenders of the Protestant Religion We shall readily grant that our Divines do ex super abundanti defend the truth against the Papists from the testimony of Fathers and Councils but did never assert that the defence of it from the Scriptures alone was not sufficient as they would never have quarrelled with the Papists touching the judg of controversies and the rule for interpretation of Scripture if they would have been contented to have stood to its determination It s true Mr. Philpot that glorious
to your last charg which as it is very high so we judge it hath in it as little reason for the bearing it up You say After the second and third Orders against those that forsake the publique Assemblies of the Saints and such as are scandalous comes in a fourth touching the Catechumeni in the first Order mentioned viz That the Minister when he Catechizeth the severall Families c. But here in the first place we observe you omit to mention the first part of this Order and unto which that which follows in the two next Orders doth refer And in the next place you descant upon this latter branch of it only For you say But what if they will not present themselves before the Eldership The Minister must exhort and admonish them But that is wholly of your own adding Yet you go on and say But what if they still refuse their names shall be published openly in the several Congregations and they warned before all to reform So you affirm that we say though you prove it not as we shall shew you anon But here you call for attention and say Mark Men of blameless life and knowledge must be warned before all to reform If we either had practised any such thing or any such construction either from the rules of Grammer or Logick or common reason could have been put upon the words we used in our Paper you might have called for this attention that so such a Government as this and the Persons mannaging it might have been cast out both together and no where tolerated in the Christian World Although we have not forgotten the time when under the late Prelacy many godly and orthodox Ministers and sundry knowing and conscientions Christians were far worse used then to have onely their names published in the Congregations and they warned to conform to the orders then appointed in the Church The Ministers being suspended from their Ministery to the unspeakable loss of their congregations and the undoing of themselves and their Families And they also oftentimes as well as private Christians that were none of the worst members of the Congregations cast out as unsavoury salt And the great Excommunication which casteth out of the Church and Iudgeth them no better then Heathens and Publicans notwithstanding all their piety and knowledge to use your own expressions and we may adde notwithstanding the very great use-fullness of sundry of such for the Church of God was inflicted on them and all because they could not in all points comform themselves to the Government and orders then on foot and which all Godly moderate conformable men then thought might have been well spared and the Church in those times as well governed and ordered without them as by the retaining of them If you had had to deal with those Persons you might well have called for that attention which here you do But yet you go on further still and say But what if after all this thay will not reform but continue obstinate Then say you no admission to the Sacrament for that you say is implyed in the fourth order and that here is our Excommunicatio minor But yet you drive on your charge higher still for you adde But that is not all an higher censure yet They shall be cast out and excommunicate For so say you saith the sixth and last order the great Excommunication which casteth out of the Church also and judgeth them no better then Heathens and Publicans notwithstanding all their piety and knowledge And when you have driven up your charge to the height you conclude and tell us what the upshot of our resolves comes to which is this as you say viz. In brief all willfully ignorant though we speak not one tittle of their censure at all and scandalous are to be Excommunicate and not onely they but the knowing and blameless of life also if they persent not themselves to the Eldership But here we see partly prejudice against the Eldership and Persons presenting themselves before it in order to their Admission to the Sacrament and partly your unacquaintedness with the Rules of the Presbyterian Government hath imposed upon you thus far as to force upon us such a construction of our words as never came into our own thoughts It was an exhortation onely that was appointed to be given to the Persons Catechized to present themselves to the Eldership and no more Not so much as an Admonition in order to any further censure in case not hearkened unto And here we observe that this is one main ground of your mistake that you do not distinguish betwixt an Admonition that is in order to a further censure if it prevaile not and which was mentioned in the first part of the fourth Order and which you wholly omit and an exhortation but confound these together taking them for one and the same and which is here a radical and grand mistake For doubtless in a thousand cases that might be instanced in there may be place for an exhortation when though ineffectual there is no place for an Admonition that is in order to a further Church censure in case of obstinacy as it is taken by us here Men may be exhorted to examine and prove themselvs whether they be in the faith to self examination before they come to the Lords Table to grow in Grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ to keep their hearts with all diligence and to infinite more things of the like nature which are duties they should apply themselves unto When yet there is no room for an admonition in oder to any Church censure in case it be not obeyed Nay when men may perceive there is not that care that should be in Persons in regard of some of their Words and carriages there may be place for an exhortation and yet for no Admonition in order to any Church censure in case the exhortation be not hearkned unto if there be not any further scandalous out breakings of corruption that may justly merit it Church censures are not to pass upon men for every fault nor against such as be guilty of such sins of infirmity as are commonly found in the Children of God As in that case by the rules of our Government it is provided against And yet an exhortation to watchfullness and vigilancy in such cases is not useless And so it may well be appointed by us that the Minister should exhort such as are found by him to be Persons of knowledge and are in conversation blameless to present themselves to the Eldership that so they might be regularly and orderly admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper an Ordinance that is not to be sleighted as it is by many but upon too sleight grounds as they will be found to be when they come to be tried in the day of account and yet no proceedings by Church censures against such Persons in case such an exhortation prevaile not
Government to be changed which saith he however devised at first for a remedy against Schisme yet many holy and wise men have judged it more pernitious then the Disease it self and although it did not by and by appear yet miserable experience afterwards shewed it First Ambition crept in which at length begat Antichrist set him in his Chair and brought the Yoke of Bondage on the Neck of the Church The sence of these Mischiefs made Nazianzen wish not onely that there were no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 No Dignity or tyrannicall Prerogative of place but also that there were no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no principall Dignity to wit in the Church of which he is speaking But now saith he contentions about the right hand and the left about the higher and lower places c. have bred many inconveniencies even among Ministers that should be Teachers in Israel Thus far our reverend Brethren of the Province of London which we thought good to transcribe that so it might appear to the wise Reader upon what grounds the Bishop came to have Superiority over Presbyters at the first and that however it was given him upon prudentiall Reasons and particularly for the prevention of Schisme yet it not being a way of God the device failed as sad experience in after times shewed the remedy proving worse then the disease as not only those reverend and learned Authors quoted by our Brethren shew but also Church Story makes forth abundantly and which was reason sufficient why we should not so readily submit to re-admit moderate Episcopacy as you expected 2 But as you may perceive by this account given that the Superiority of a Bishop above a Presbyter was at the first introduced on prudentiall grounds onely so we shall here forbeare at present to add any other Arguments but onely prudentiall ones why we cannot consent to admit of moderate Episcopacy as we shall referre both you and the Reader to what hath been solidly and learnedly writ against Episcopacy in the height by reverend and godly Mr. Banes in his Diocesan Tryall Mr. Parker Dr. Blondell Salmasius Bucerus and others together with our reverend Brethren of the Province of London in their Jus divinum Ministerii Evangelici And whom we here cite not for their bare Testimony though that were not to be sleighted but because they have learnedly discussed this Point and may present such things unto you concerning the same as may be worth your weighing And so we come to give the Reasons we here insist upon why we dare not admit of moderate Episcopacy as the tearms of accommodation with you according to your proposall 1 And the first that we shall here urge is The sad experience that we of these Nations have had of the Tyrannicall Bondage and wofull Slavery that thousands of Gods precious Servants were brought under during the prevalency of Episcopacy We cannot but remember how when Prelacy was at the height all the Godly in this Land Conformists as well as Non-conformists did grievously sigh under that heavy and intolerable Yoke Though you in your next Paper tell us you are not so sensible of the multiplicity of Canons and burthensomness of Ceremonies under which in the time of Episcopacy any truly conscientious did sigh and groan But we cannot but be grieved to heare you express your selves after this manner What! to say nothing of many thousands that were but in a private Capacity who groaned under the burthensomness of the old Ceremonies that were rigorously pressed upon pain of Excommunication if not submitted to and who we doubt not however you judge of them are by God many of them received up into Glory Shall not â—artwright Brightman Ames Parker Baines Bradshaw Dod Cleaver Hildersham Hooker Cotton and in these parts Burne Midgly Bate Langly Rathband Paget Nichols and sundry other old unconformists that in their times were glorious lights in the Church of God and such as this Land was not worthy of that were cast out suspended and silenced by the Prelates for not subscribing and conforming to the Orders of those times not be reckoned with you in the number of those that were truly conscientious Or have you been such strangers in our Israel that you have not heard what those have suffered under Episcopacy Or if you have heard did their Sufferings never pierce your hearts Certainly you do hereby sufficiently discover the temper of your Spirit but we wish you may be found in a better frame before you die as in the mean season we are sorry that your own sufferings we speak of some of you that adhered to the late King have had not more kindly working on your hearts to the humbling of them no not to this very day But however you judge we doubt not but there are many Myriads of people in these Lands yet alive that will give testimony with us touching the piety zeal faithfulness conscientiousness of very many Ministers and thousands of Christians of all sorts that suffered grievous things at the hands of the Prelaticall Taskmasters even to the undoing of many Families the robbing of severall Congregations of their faithfull and painfull Ministers that were driven from their places forced into Corners or out of the Land meerly for not conforming to such things as were then acknowledged by the most that did conform to be but things indifferent not in their own nature or by vertue of divine Precept necessary Nay it was grievous to the godly Conformists of those times to see their deâ—r Brethren thus cruelly and unmercifully dealt with even for very Trifles But at length though we deny not but there have been some godly Bishops the Pride and Exorbitancy of the major part of the Prelates grew to that height that old Conformity not serving the turn except men would prostitute their Consciences to be subservient to their base lusts to cringe bow at the Altar read the Book for Dancing and other Sports on the Lords-day temporize and do what ever was appointed Nay if Ministers would be faithfull in the discharging the Duties of their Ministeriall Function in Preaching Catechising and the use of conceived Prayer before and after Sermon though godly and painfull they were outed of their places and thousands of Conformists both Ministers and Christians were driven out of the Land till at length the Yoke began to be so heavy and the Cries of the Oppressed so loud in the Ears of God and men that the Parliament taking the heavy pressures of the Lords People into their pious and serious thoughts did cast out of this Church with these Task-masters this Tyrannicall and Lordly Government that suiting with the Pride Ambition and Avarice of those that managed it and backed with the Favour of the Prince to the serving of whose will and pleasure being put into their places by him but too many of them were wholly devoted as that was also unto him a strong temptation though to his own undoing to
Officers depending on that Hierarchy was extirpated according to that Covenant as appears by the Ordinance they passed October the 9. 1646. for the abolishing Archbishops and Bishops within the Kingdome of England and Dominion of Wales By them also after the passing of severall Ordinances for the setling of the Presbyterian Governments by parts before at length that progress was by them made in that work that they passed the Ordinance of 1648. establishing the forme of Church Government to be used in the Church of England after advice had with the Assembly of Divines By their authority and according to the rules and directions by them given for that purpose they setled the Presbyterian Government in the Province of London and in this Province of Lancaster and in some other parts of the Land whereby they sufficiently awarranted those that should act therein according to their Ordinances that they are secured against that danger of a Premunire with which some as will appear from the following Papers hath been threatned What obstructions this work of reformation so happily begun did after meet with from severall Parties or how it came to passe that this Government was setled throughout the Land we are not willing here so much as to mention desiring rather in silence to acknowledge the righteous Hand of God in bringing us back again into the wildernesse of confusion to wander there for severall years together when we had been upon the borders of a just settlement and thereby correcting an unthankfull people and unwilling to be reformed according to their Covenant then by making complaints against any to seem to murmur at his just dispensation especially considering that we are not without hope but that the wise and mercifull God may have reserved the honour of finishing this work and building upon that foundation which was by them laid in troublous times for a fitter season when the people of this Nation having been convinced of the mischiefs and miseries of an ungoverned Church by the long want of Church Government in it may be the more ready to give the more chearfull entertainmant to what may be established by some after Parliament And who can tell but the hands of sundry of the same Zerubbabels that laid the foundation of this work their hands may also finish it But however thus we see that the worke of reformation and particularly of Churches and Nations is not a work that goes on easily it meeteth with opposition not only often from enemies but sometimes even from professed friends And if that Parliament that cast out Episcopacy and established the Presbyterian Government in the room thereof did not carry on that worke so far but through much difficulty it is not to be thought strange if the same spirit of opposition that they wrestled with should after they were risen discover it selfe to the interrupting and hindering of those that acted upon their Ordinances in the exercise of that Government and Discipline which they so established We cannot but imagine that sundry throughout the Land have reason to complaine of the like if not far worse then we have met with But as touching our selves it was our publishing a short Paper in our severall Congregations and herewith Printed that was the occasion of those contests betwixt us and the Gentlemen we have to deale with that are now made publick to the world What the designe of that Paper was we leave it to all indifferent persons to consider nothing doubting but that all equall judges will conclude it was very honest and did not merit such unhandsome handling as it after met with But how matters after proceeded betwixt us and the Gentlemen that assaulted it untill without our privity and consent both that and other Papers that after passed on both sides were by them Printed our Narrative following will give a full account whereby also it will be evident that we are forced into the field for our own defence as it will be further manifest to every Reader from the Papers themselves which we here publish we are meerly on the defensive part And if the Reader be pleased to take notice from our Narrative that it was in July last that we first met with all the Papers in Print and further observe thence that we had been before that time in a treaty with them touching a meeting in order to an accommodation during which time we had not any thoughts of returning any Answer in writing to their last Papers and that notwithstanding our severall other employments in the meane season our Answer to those Papers had fully passed the Class November the 23. of this same Year as appears by the date they beare according to the subscription of them by the Moderator we cannot conceive that he will judge we have neglected any time that could with conveniency have been redeemed for the hastening our Answer abroad in the world And now untill they see the light the transcribing them faire for the Press and the Printing of them drinkes up the remainder of the time All that we have now further to acquaint the Reader with is to give him an account of some things in reference to what we here publish We have Printed over again all the Papers that formerly passed betwixt them and us because we could not answer severall things in theirs without some speciall reference to both their Papers and ours and we judged it to be the fairest way to present all entirely to the Readers view that thereby he might be able the better to judg concerning the whole especially considering what we now publish might perhaps come into the hands of sundry that had never seen what had been before by them Printed We have not omitted to Print the Title given by them to the Papers as they were by them published that by comparing their Papers with their Title and our examination of them together with that tast we give in the close of that spirit they discover in them the Reader may the better judge how their discourse doth suit with the Title given to it We have also therewith again Printed their Preface that they might not have any occasion to say of us that we had a mind to suppress any thing of theirs which they perhaps might judg materiall though from our Narrative and Animadversions on this their Preface in the close of that our Narrative the weight that is in it will be tried The Paper which we published in our Congregations and that followes our Narrative though approved by the Provinciall yet being directed only to the Congregations of our own Association was drawn up short being for the use of those that were not altogether strangers to the Discipline it having been practised amongst them for severall yeares before and the rules whereof as they are more fully and particularly held forth in the forme of Church Government established by the Parliament so had been more fully expounded to them in our publick Ministry as
said that Popery gets more advantage from the want of Government in the Church then from the Presbyterian Government which was never so effectually setled we leave all unprejudiced persons to judg and if eventuall causes be talkt of whether severall of the Episcopall men that bend their strength so against Presbytery and whilst they contend for a Government excepted against thereby endeavouring anarchy in the Church do not herein gratifie the Papists time will shew We might further say that in these parts we have had none that we know of revolted to Popery since Presbytery was setled And for some we know very eminent that turned Papists in the height of Prelacy and upon some offences and sad accidents that befell some in the Clergy then which we forbeare particularly to instance and they do but continue under us as they were before so that Episcopacy sure was the eventuall cause of their apostacy by the Argument of this observation of the Doctors May we add an observation of a worthy Divine which we have heard from him and let it stand by this of the Doctors and for the truth of it abide the test and strictest examination and it may be still in pursuance of this vindication of our Government It was this that of the three formes in Church Government that are spoken of amongst us viz. Presbytery Episcopacy and Independency of all three the first where it hath prevailed hath been followed with least errors in Doctrine For Episcopacy it is well known how many of the Divines under that Government were infected with Arminianism Socinianism and Popery it self * some chief Ceremoniall men turning Papists which the Doctor cannot observe of any Presbyterians For the Independants how many of their way turn into Antinomians Anabaptists Seekers Familists Quakers Ranters c. And for Presbytery it hath not yet been observed to have bred any such noysome Weeds where it hath been established And how far it is eventually the nourisher of Popery as far as concernes this instance in our County we leave the Reader to judg Distance of place in regard of the Author hath hindred so strict a revisall of the Sheets in Printing as was needfull these faults since Collected by him besides divers literall ones not so materiall thou art desired thus to mend ERRATA IN Epist to the Reader page 3. l. 29. for this read his In their Preface p. 5. l. 26. for Donasticks r. Donatists In the Narrative p. 1. l 27. for with r. which p 9. l. 4. for to them r. to their p. 13. l. 9. these words are to be read as in a Parenthesis the next Class Mr Heyrick not being returned l. 24. after Printing these words are left out of the Papers with the Preface from p. 17. to the end instead of Narrative the Title should have been The Animadversions upon their Preface Classicall Records 1. Col. l. 32. for Edw. Gee r. Edw. Lee 8. Col. l. 5. for contained r. continued l. 7. for would r. could In the Answer to the Preface p. 1. l. 15. note 1. for our poor Text r. one poor Text. p. 9. l. 3. note 5. for freely making r. freely make l. 16. note 6. dele to r. return the Laconick p. 11. l. 23. note 13. r. tax as Donatism l. â—lt r. they jeer us p. 12. l. 15 r. when he is fallen l. 34. r. omission In the Gentlemens first Paper p. 11 12. the Names from Isa Allen to Nie. Mosely are transposed and should have been in the front of all the Names In the Book p. 89. l. 9. for unconformists r. nonconformists l 22. for not more r. no more p. 95. l. 36. protest against him r. against it p. 99. l. 28. for sober ground r. other ground p. 100. l. 7. for seasonable r. seaseable l. 18. for offored r. affoarded p. 106. l. 30. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 139. l. 22. for civill sunction r. civill sanction p. 179. l. 1. dele the Interrogation after what p. 224 l. 12. for concluding r. excluding p. 247. l. 28. the word assure is left out read it thus yâ—t that could not be a rule to assure us p. 291. l. 30. r. is not against the Rules p. 301. l. 36. r. normam p. 322. l. 32. dele the r. not to the last p. 324. l. 23. for dissavoured r. dissavowed p. 338. l. 17. for admit r. omit it l. 33. for presumptuously used r. promiscuously used p. 339. l. 6. dele not l. 27. for giving r. give your censure p. 340. l. 2. dele it p. 341. l. 7 and 22. r. Magistraliter l. 8. for ours fit r. was fit l. 15. for nearest Antecedent p. 342. the sentence in the Margin should be inserted into the matter at the letter a. without which the sense is incompleat l. 5. for and us that r. and is that p. 344. l. 16. r. competent knowledg l. 36. r. tell us p. 345. l. 8. dele to p. 352. l. 26. r. Apage Sect. 11. The paper that was published by the first Classis within the Province of Lancaster in the severall Congregations belonging to their association Novemb 22. 1657. At the first Classe at Manchester Septem 8th 1657. IN pursuance of an Order of the last Provincial the first Classe doth humbly represent to this Assembly their apprehensions in the case to them propounded in a draught prepared for the several Congregations belonging to their own Association if it shall be approved of by this Assembly and which they do wholely submit to their Judgements It being represented to this Classe and much complained of and offence being taken That in the several Congregations if not in all belonging to this Association there are many persons of all sorts that are members of Congregations and publickly enjoy severall priviledges as hearing of the Word prayers of the Church and baptizing of their children and satisfaction for injuries done unto them That yet live in a total and sinfull neglect of the Lords Supper that are scandalous and offensive in their lives drunkards unclean persons swearers Sabbath breakers neglecters of Family-duties that will not subject themselves to the present government of the Church but live as lawless persons out of their rank and order that there are sundry that are grosly ignorant in the main points of Christian Religion These are to give notice that this Classe laying these things to heart and much grieved for them do publish and make known 1. That every Minister belonging to this Association shall set apaâ—t one or two or more of the weeke dayes in every month for the catechizing of the several familyes belonging to their respective Congregations and for the information of the ignorant in those families and that the families to be catechized on each of such dayes set apart for that purpose have notice the Lords day before to meet the Minister either at the Church or Chappel or the Ministers house or some other house within the
to the Sacrament The course by you published provided it be in publique little differeth from the order prescribed by the Church of England and other reformed Churches abroad before any be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper 2. For those who erre so grossely whether in Doctrinals or points of disciplin thereby renting from a true constituted Church Though you speak nothing either of their sin or punishment yet we hope you with us do hold That the Churches lawful Pastors have the power of the Keyes committed to them to excommunicate such offenders 3. For such as are scandalous and wicked in their lives Admonition private and publique is to be observed according to Christs rule Mat. 18 but if they still continue and will not reform the Churches lawfull Pastors have power to excommunicate such Thus far we accord in judgement touching the way of informing the ignorant and reforming wicked persons and schismaticall which course is so fully warranted by the Word of God and the constant practice of the Catholique Church that we are not so wavering and unsetled in our apprehensions of the case as to submit either it or them either wholly or in part to the contrary judgement and determination of a Generall Council of the Eastern or Western Churches much lesse to a new termed Provincial Assembly at Preston wherein we not little differ from you Other parts of your Paper are full of darknesse to which we cannot so fully assent till further explicated and unfolded by you For 1. Whereas you say That in the several congregations if not in all belonging to this Association there are many persons of all sorts that are members of Congregations c. you seeme to hint that though your grief may be general as ours for all offenders yet your censures extend onely to those who have admitted themselves members of some Congregation within your Association and yet live inordinately and will not be admonished If so then we who never were any members or associates of yours are not within the verge and compasse of your Presbyterian discipline for what have you to do to judge those that are without 2. But whereas your complaint and offence taken is That many there are of all sorts who will not submit themselves to the present Government of the Church but live like lawless persons out of their rank and order If by the present Government of the Church you mean your own as may strongly be conjectured you do then are we also comprehended therein and must fall within your censure and not onely we but all Papists Anabaptists and all other of what Profession and Religion soever who live within the Parish must be taken for members of some one Congregation within your Association and so driven into the common fold of Presbytery and be subject to your Government And this as we suppose is the chief design of you in this as in other transactions of yours to subject all to your Government which you garnish over with the specious title of Christs Government Throne and Scepter Presbytery is the main thing driven at here and however she cometh ushered in with a Godly pretence of sorrow for the sins and ignorance of the times and a duty incumbent upon you to exercise the power which Christ hath committed to you for edification and not for destruction yet these are but as so many waste papers wherein Presbytery is wrapped to make it look more handsomly and pass more currently but beware we must for latet anguis in Herbâ Object But you say For want of the vigorous exercise of this Ecclesiastical discipline ignorance Atheism and Licentiousness growes upon us and men live as lawlesse persons out of their rank and order because not subject to your present Governement Sol. We pray for the establishment of such Church Government throughout his Highness Dominions as is consonant to the will of God and Universall practice of primitive Churches that Ecclesiasticall discipline may be exercised in the hands of them to whom it was committed by Christ and left by him to be transferred from hand to hand to the end of the World and shall readily joyn with you in humble addresses to his Highnes and his great Council for the establishment of such a Church Government In the mean time though there may be such who as you say live as lawless persons out of their rank and order yet are they subject to law and therefore subject to punishment for though your Ecclesiastical sword cannot take hold on them the civill sword doth reach them Your Class may do well then not to contemn as in charity we hope you do not the authority of the civill Magistrate but in stead of warning all and every member belonging to them to complain to the Eldership of those that walke disorderly and will not be reclaimed to the end they may excommunicate them That they exhort them to complaine to the civill Magistrate whose sword of Justice is sharper and longer and likely to work a greater reformation in the lives and manners of men by a corporal and pecuniary Mulct then any sword of excommunication or other Church censure your Eldership can any way pretend unto There are other parts of your paper do remain likewise dark which we desire may be made plain unto us for whereas you say There are many persons of all sorts c. That will not submit themselves to the present Government of the Church but live as lawless persons out of their rank and order Our Quaeres there upon are 1. Why Government in singulari is there no Ecclesiasticall Government but yours may not another Church have its Government different from yours yet not different from that which Christ hath prescribed in his Word Calvin saith yea Scimus enim unicuique Ecclesiae c. And accordingly there are other Churches in England different in Government from yours and as good as yours But if you say yours is the Government 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of eminency as Christs own Government more immediatly and jure divino which you so much defend then why the present is there no present Government in any Church or Assembly of Saints but where your discipline is erected Are all the rest at present without Government or where hath yours been this 1500. years past till this present Hath Antichristianism so overspread the face of the Church that Christs own Goverment could never get footing till this present But now subjection is required thereto of all yet many of all sorts will not subject but live as lawless persons out of their rank and order Our next Quaere is What must all those that observe not your ranks and orders subject not themselves to your present Government be taken for lawless persons out of their rank and order Yea for so this close connexion of yours seems to import viz. many who do not subject but live c. In your paper you further proceed and
Ministers and others should be appointed by authority of Parliament who should consider how the several Counties respectively might be most conveniently divided into distinct Classical Presbyteries and what Ministers and others were fit to be of each Classis And that they should accordingly make such division and nomination of persons for each Classical Presbytery Which divisions and persons so named for every division the appointed should be certified up to the Parliament And they further appointed That the said several Classes respectively being approved by Parliament within their several precincts should have power to constitute Congregational Elderships According to these directions the persons by them appointed for this County met and did consider how it might be most conveniently divided into distinct Classical Presbyteries and what Ministers and others were fit to be of each Classis and also made such a division and nomination accordingly and certified the same up to the Parliament All which being done according to their directions and appointment It was resolved by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament Oct. 2. 1646. That they did approve of the division of the County of Lancaster into nine Classical Presbyteries represented from the said County And it was further resolved That the said Houses did approve of the Ministers and other persons represented from the County of Lancaster as fit to be of the several and respective Classes into which the said County was divided Which division of this County into nine Classical Presbyteries and the approval thereof by the said Lords and Commons was forthwith printed and published In this division so made and approved The first Classis is to contain Manchester Parish Prestwich Parish Oldham Parish Flixton Parish Eccles Parish and Ashton under-line Parish as by what was then printed and is yet extant is to be seen Further we wish you to take notice That in the forementioned Directions pag. 3. Direction 6. it is there thus ordained That all Parishes and places whatsoever as well priviledged places and exempt Jurisdictions as others be brought under the Government of Congregational Classical and National Assemblies Provided that the Chappels or places in the houses of the Peers of this Realm should continue free for the exercise of Divine Duties to be performed according to the Directory And also that it was ordered by the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament Decemb. 21. 1646. That the several Classes in Lancashire should be one Province as appears by their Order to that purpose As there is also another Order of theirs of Octob. 16. 1648. enabling the several Classes within this Province to send their Delegates to meet in a Provincial Assembly in Preston and appointing the time of their first meeting the number of the Delegates that were to be sent to the said Assembly and the Quorum of the Assembly according to the provision that had been made before by the Parliament before any Provincial Assembly could by virtue of their Authority be enabled to act Provincially By which account thus given it is manifest That the setting up the Presbyterian Government in this County The division of it into several Classes The making of those Classes into a Province and their Acting Provincially As also the appointing this Classis to be the first that is the first in regard of the number onely the account beginning here was all done by Authority of Parliament And that when we call our selves the first Classis within the Province of Lancaster we are awarranted thereto by authority of Parliament And so your Saluting us in our own termes which we gave not to our selves till the Parliament had first given them to us will not seem strange to them that then did or now do acknowledge that Authority and Power which the Parliament exercised in those times Especially considering there was nothing done since either by that Parliament or any other or by his Highnesse and the late Parliament that takes from us what was then granted and as we shall clear further anon SECT II. IN your Preface to what in your Paper you have to say unto us there is in the first place a mistake of that title which was given by us unto ours which you call a Paper draught for it was not by us intituled a Presentation as you call it but a Draught that represented to the Provincial Assembly our apprehensions in a case by them propounded unto us And was approved by the Provincial under the Title of a Representation But this perhaps was but the mistake of the Scribe and we insist not on it It is of greater weight and moment to take notice of what you publish as your sense and apprehensions of it not resting in the judgement or determination of any general Council contrary thereunto if any such should be much lesse to one of our Provincial Assemblies Although you tell us we seem to submit to our Provincial what we will hardly grant to a general Council in which you professe to differ from us We know very well and have learned better from the Scriptures then to resolve our Faith into the determination of any company of men on Earth whatsoever or to build our Faith on the Judgement of Synods Provincial or National or of General Councils that have been heretofore or that may be hereafter We are sure all men are fallible and Faith that is a sure and certain Grace must have a sure and certain foundation which is onely the infallible and written Word of God And if this only be your meaning you have not us differing from you But yet when we consider That Synods and Councils rightly constituted and regularly called as they may be then of great use for light and guidance so also that they are the Ordinance of God and by him invested with authority and so have an authoritative Judgement belonging to them and which is not in private persons we dare not contemn them nor speak sleightly of them And seeing the higher Assemblies have greater Authority then the lower as there is more power in the whole then in the part in the whole body then in any one or some few members and that however we are well enough satisfied that we have the Authority of a Classe yet we are under the Authority of the Provincial Assembly We see not wherein we offended that we submitted our apprehensions in the Case propounded by that Assembly unto us unto their Judgment There is concerning matters of Religion Judicium Privatum or a Private Judgement and this belongs to all Christians who are to see with their own eyes and judge concerning what is necessary for them to know and believe in matters of this nature This Judgement as there is good reason why we should allow it to our selves so we should Lord it over mens consciences if we should deny it to any There is also Judicium Publicum Authoritativum A Publick and an Authoritative Judgement and this is either Concional which belongs to
God in his Word for the information of the ignorant but in what way of Catechizing as is expressed in our Paper the ignorant in our Congregations who never offered themselves unto the Sacrament were most like to be brought to some measure of knowledge and which is not a matter of Doctrine but of Order onely Neither was it by us submitted to that Assembly whether the censures of the Church were the meanes appointed by Christ for the reforming of the scandalous But whether it might not be meet pro hic nunc and as the present case stood to apply the censures and so put in practice at this time that which in the General we were sufficiently assured from the word of Truth was the way for their reformation and with which we were both by God and Man intrusted to dispense unto those that were openly scandalous in our Congregations However they contented themselves to live in the want of the Lords Supper nor ever presented themselves to the Eldership to be admitted to it And this because meerly circumstantial as to the dispensing of the Censures at this time and to such Persons we think herein we owed the Provincial Assembly unto whose Authority we professe our selves to be subject so much respect and duty as to submit our apprehensions in a case of this nature which they had propounded unto us to be seriously weighed as they had done to the rest of the Classes within this Province unto their Judgement and to take their concurrent approval along with us before we proceeded to practise in a matter of this weight And yet we have declared before That however we are not so wavering and unsettled in matters of faith as to resolve our belief into the determination of Synods or Councils believing no more nor no otherwise then as they determine Yet that it is not out of the compasse of the authority of a Synod to examine try and authoritatively to censure Doctrines as well as matters of Discipline And we think how confident soever you may be of the soundnesse and orthodoxnesse of what in your Paper you propound in way of exception against any thing in ours you have not such clear and unquestionable grounds from Scripture for the same that you were to be accused of wavering or unsettledness if you had submitted the same to have been examined and tried by a Provincial Assembly and much lesse if you could have had the opportunity of submitting it to the Censure of a General Council But whereas mentioning our Provincial Assembly at Preston you call it a new termed Provincial Assembly If your meaning be that the terming it a Provincial Assembly instead of a Provincial Synod is a new term then this is but onely a Logomachia and not much to be insisted on Although we frequently call it a Provincial Synod as well as a Provincial Assembly But if your meaning be That it is a new termed Provincial Assembly at Preston Because Provinciall Synods or Assemblies have been held but lately at Preston we see not if Provincial Assemblies be warrantable and have been of ancient use in the Church that having been long in dis-use they began of late to be held at Preston that can justly incurre your censure But if the Antiquity of such Assemblies be that you question Then we referre you to what Doctor Bernard in the Book of his above quoted shews was the Judgement of Doctor Vsher who is acknowledged by all that knew him or are acquainted with his works to have been a great Antiquary however we alleadge him not that you should build your faith upon his Testimony and which we think may be sufficient to vindicate Provincial Assemblies in your thoughts from all suspition of novelty In that Book you have in the close of it proposals touching the Reduction of Episcopacy unto the form of Synodical Government received in the ancient Church And it thus begins By the Order of the Church of England all Presbyters are charged to administer the Doctrine and Sacraments and the Discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded and as this Realm hath received And that they might the better understand what the Lord hath commanded herein The exhortation of Paul to the Elders of Ephesus Acts 20. 28. is appointed to be read unto them at the time of their Ordination A little after it is aknowledged That Ignatius by Presbytery mentioned by Paul 1 Tim. 4. 14. did understand the Community of the rest of the Presbyters or Elders who then had a hand not onely in the delivery of the Doctrine and Sacraments but also in the administration of the Discipline of Christ And for further proof Tertullian is alleadged in his Generall Apologie for Christians Where he saith that in the Church are used exhortations chastisements and divine censure For Judgement is given with great advice as among those who are certain they are in the sight of God And it is the chiefest foreshewing of the Judgement to come if any man have so offended that he be banished from the Communion of Prayer and of the Assembly and of all holy Fellowship The Presidents that bear rule therein are certain approved Elders who have obtained this honour not by reward but by good report There also is further shewed That in matters of Ecclesiastical judicature Cornelius Bishop of Rome used the received form of gathering together the Presbytery And that Cyprian sufficiently declares of what Persons that consisted When he wisheth him to read his Letter to the flourishing Clergy which there did preside or rule with him And further That in the fourth Council of Carthage it was concluded That the Bishop might hear no mans cause without the presence of the Clergy And that otherwise the Bishops sentence should be void unlesse it were confirmed by the Clergy And yet further That this is found inserted into the Canons of Egbert who was Archbishop of York in the Saxon times and afterwards into the body of the Canon law it self It is here also acknowledged That in our Church this kind of Presbyterian Government hath been much disused Yet that it did professe that every Pastor hath a right to rule the Church from whence also the name of Rector was at first given to him and administer the Discipline of Christ as well as to dispense the Doctrine and Sacraments c. By all which it is acknowledged and also proved That the form of Government by the united suffrages of the Clergy is ancient and which is there in express termes asseâ—ted as it might be demonstrated by many more Testimonies but that we conceive these already mentioned are sufficient and being alleadged by the aforementioned Author As also evidencing what his own Judgement was in this point may be more likely to sway with you if in that there should be a dissent betwixt you and us then any thing that we could our selves produce But in this reduction of Episcopacy to the form of Synodical Government
thought fit c. And doe therefore-ordain a Committee therein particularly nominated in stead and place of Commissioners The groundlesnesse of the mistake about settling the Presbyterial Government for three years onely that might arise from the proviso in this Ordinance is so clear to any common understanding that the bare recital of the sum of the matter of this Ordinance and the ground of making it doth make it so fully to appear that it were but lost labour to use any more words about it But we have particularly mentioned all that ever passed the Parliament so farre as we have either seen or heard of that hitherto concerned Church Government untill the year 1648 When the form of Church Government to be used in the Church of England and Ireland was agreed upon by the Lords and Commons Assembled in Parliament after Advice had with the Assembly of Divines and was ordered by them to be printed August 19. of the said year 1648. And this Ordinance wherein all that had passed the Parliament before in parts and at several times and what ever was but temporary by vertue of other Ordinances so far as was intended for continuance are moulded up into a complete body with a supply of sundry things that had been never mentioned nor published before in other Ordinances is without any limitation of time for its continuance and remains unrepealed to this day for any thing we have seen or heard to the contrary Nay we think as we shall touch upon anon That by the humble Advice assented to by his Highnesse this Ordinance as well as others receives strength But by this full account given we think we have made it sufficiently to appear that we have had the Authority of the civil Magistrate to bear us out in what we have acted since the first setting up of the Presbyterian Government untill this present Except there be any that can come forth and charge us to have transgressed the rules appointed by the Parliament for us to observe in our actings against which our own innocency onely shall be our defence It now remaines for your further satisfaction and our own vindication that we recite some things particularly out of the form of Church Government which we conceive are thereunto subservient In the very first Words of the Ordinance according to what we have before recited in the directions for the electing and choosing of ruling Elders and is there also to be found you may find it thus Be it ordered and ordained by the Lords and Commons in Parliament Assembled and by Authority of the same That all Parishes and Places whatsoever within the Kingdom of England and Dominion of Wales as well Priviledged Places and exempted jurisdictions as others be brought under the Government of Congregational Classical Provincial and National Assemblies c. Whence it is to us unquestionable That by vertue of this appointment such as live within the bounds of our several Congregations and Parishes are under the power of some one or other of the Congregational Elderships constituted by Authority of Parliament within our several Parishes And that all those that live within the bounds of our Classis mentioned before are under the power of our Classical Assembly constituted in like manner by the said Authority What power is given particularly to the congregational Elderships you may finde in the aforesaid form of Church Government and unto which we refer you onely we shall minde you That by vertue thereof they have power as they shall see just occasion to enquire into the knowledge and spiritual estate of any member of the Congregation to admonish and rebuke to suspend from the Lords Table those who are found by them to be ignorant and scandalous and to excommunicate according to the rules and directions after following And it is thereby ordained That the Examination and Judgement of such Persons as shall for their ignorance in the points of Religion mentioned in that Ordinance not be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper is to be in the power of the Eldership of every Congregation All which will appear by the expresse Letter of the said Ordinance to any that will consult it and which not onely justifies all that is practised in that case by the several Elderships but also shews what grounds this Classis had for that which was mentioned in our Paper touching both what is therein appointed to the Minister about Catechizing Families and also concerning the Ministers exhorting such as in the several Families he should finde to be of competent knowledge and know to be of blamelesse life That they should present themselves to the Eldership The Trial and Judgement in this case not belonging to any one Minister alone but to the Eldership There are also rules and directions given in this Ordinance to be observed by the several Elderships concerning suspension from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in cases of scandal which may be seen there particularly But there is no rule given that will allow either the Eldership or Classis according to the several powers to them therein granted either to warn before all or to excommunicate knowing and blamelesse men for their meer not presenting themselves before the Eldership The rules of this Government prescribe otherwise as we our selves must also needs professe that we are not conscious to our selves that we have given any just occasion by our management thereof That contrary to the expresse rules appointed therein to be observed by us and to the plain sense of the expressions used in our Paper of which afterward any such a thing should have been so much as supposed to have been intended from any thing there expressed Give us leave to proceed a little further to lay open the order that is prescribed in the above mentioned form of Church Government touching the order of proceeding to excommunication which as it will awarrant the publishing of mens names openly in the Congregation and warning them before all to reform being such as are justly censurable by the rules thereof and particularly where it prescribes that several publique admonitions shall be given to the offenders c. So it will awarrant us in any thing that is made censurabâ—e by that Paper of ours that was published To make this to appear as also to shew what reason we had to make known to the several congregations within our bounds what our paper held forth We shall here declare what offences are censurable with this greatest and last censure of Excommunication according to the order that is there prescribed and which as it requires that it be inflicted with great and mature deliberation and after all other good means have been essayed so it appoints in these expresse words That such Errours in practice as subvert the Faith or any other Errours which overthrow the power of Godlinesse if the party who holds them spread them seeking to draw others after him and such sins in practice as
cause the Name and Truth of God to be blasphemed cannot stand with the power of godlinesse and such practises as in their own nature manifestly subvert that order unity and Peace which Christ hath established in his Church and particularly all those scandalous sins for which any Person is to be suspended from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper obstinately persisted in these being publiquely known to the just scandal of the Church The sentence of Excommunication may and ought to proceed according to the directions after following But the Persons that hold other Errours in Judgement about which learned and Godly men possibly may and do differ and which subvert not the faith nor are destructive to godliness or that be guilty of such sins of infirmity as are commonly found in the Children of God or being otherwise sound in the faith and holy in life and so not falling under censure by the former rules endeavour to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace and do yet out of conscience not come up to the observation of all those rules which are or shall be established by Authority for regulating the outward worship of God and Government of his Church The sentence of excommunication for these causes shall not be denounced against them These things this Classis taking into consideration together with the power they were betrusted with by God and Man for the dispensing the censures of the Church in the cases censurable by the rules here laid down and elsewhere in the form of Church Government And there having been in the Provinciall Assembly several debates touching such Persons as in the several Congregations were ignorant and scandalous who offered not themselves to the Sacrament nor to the Eldership in order to their admission to it and they commending it to the several Classical Presbyteries to be considered of whether some further course was not to be held for the information of the one and the reformation of the other then yet had been taken notwithstanding their neglect and what they judged fittest to be done for the attaining those ends and to represent their thoughts therein to the next Assembly This Classis upon the whole concluded to represent their apprehensions in the Case as is expressed in the Paper that was published which was approved of before by the Provincial Assembly and which they judge is sufficiently awarranted in regard of any thing therein contained by the rules expressed in the above-mentioned form of Church Government We having thus far shewed what we have been and are awarranted to practice by the several Ordinances above mentioned shall now proceed further to declare That however we are no Lawyers and therefore leave the determination of the Case to the learned in the Law to judge of to whom it belongs yet if it may be lawful for us to judge of a matter of this nature from the principles of reason It seems to us that the above mentioned Ordinances about Church Government as well as other Ordinances of Parliament are confirmed in the humble Advice assented unto by his Highnesse in the 16. section thereof where we finde these Words And that nothing contained in this Petition and Advice nor your Highnesse consent rhereunto shall be construed to extend to the repealing or making void of any Act or Ordinance which is not contrary hereunto or to the matters herein contained But that the said Acts and Ordinances not contrary hereunto shall continue and remain in force in such manner as if this present Petition and Advice had not at all been had or made or your Highnesse consent thereunto given Whence we gather that if in the several Ordinances for Church Government there be nothing contrary to the humble Advice or to the matters therein contained they are not thereby any more then any other Acts or Ordinances of Parliament repealed but left to remain in force At least there seems to us to be a plain intimation that they have a force in them which is not by this humble Advice repealed and made void For it doth not appear to us That there is any thing in the form of Church Government or any other Ordinances of Parliament about that matter that is contrary to the humble Advice or matters therein contained And whereas in the eleventh section there is mention made of some that differ in worship and discipline from the publique profession of these Nations held forth to whom some indulgence is granted It seems to us there is an acknowledgement and owning of what the late Parliament held forth in regard of these by the Directory for worship and form of Church Government which they passed as the publique profession of these Nations in regard of worship and discipline And in these apprehensions we are the more confirmed because here in this section mention is made of a confession of faith to be agreed on by his Highnesse and the Parliament there having nothing in that kind passed the late Parliament that established the Directory for worship and form of Church Government However there had been a Confession of faith drawn up by the late Assembly of Divines Whence it seemes to us clear that they own the Directory for worship and the form of Church Government to be that which they hold forth as the publique profession of the Nation for worship and Government To the same purpose we finde in the Government of the Common-wealth of England Scotland and Ireland c. As it was publiquely declared at Westminster Decemb. 16 1653. pag. 43. Sect. 37. Where also they expresse a worship and Discipline publiquely held forth which must needs referre to the Directory and form of Church Government by us recited There being no other worship or discipline that then had or now hath the civil Sanction in this Nation We have been large in what we have here represented in the general before we come to speak more particularly to the rest that now follows in your paper But our pains being the greater to make this full representation unto you then it will be for you to read it we must intreat you to excuse us considering it tends as well to rectifie your mistakes as to vindicate our selves being also desirous not to be mistaken any more as also because it layes a foundation for our briefer and more particular Answer unto what follows and to which these â—hings being thus premised we now come SECT V. IN the things wherein you professe your selves to dissent till further explicated and unfolded by us 1 The first thing we meet with here is That by the many Persons of all sorts that are members of Congregations and mentioned in our Paper in your sense thereof we seem to hint that thereby we mean onely such who have admitted themselves members of some Congregation within your association and yet live inordinately c. And that therefore you who never were any members or associates of ours are not within the verge and compasse
of our Presbyterian discipline c. Unto which we say That we have constantly professed against those of the separation That the several Assemblies or Congregations within this Land that make a profession of the true Christian and Apostolique Faith are true Churches of Jesus Christ That the several members of these Congregations are by their birth members as those that were born in the Jewish Church are said to be by the Apostle Jewes by nature Gal. 2. That this their membership was sealed to them in their Baptism that did solemnly admit them as into the universal Church so into the particular wherein they were born We have also constantly maintained against the afore-mentioned Persons That the Ministers of these Churches are true Ministers notwithstanding that exception of theirs against them that they were ordained by Bishops who also themselves were true Ministers in our Judgement though we cannot acknowledge that by divine right they were superiour to their fellow brethren either in regard of order or jurisdiction And that therefore the Word and Sacraments the most essential marks of a true visible Church according to the professed Judgement of our Divines against the Papists on the one hand and those of the separation on the other dispensed by these Vinisters were and are the true Ordinances of Jesus Christ And that hereupon our work was not when the Presbyterian Government was appointed to constitute Churches but to reform them onely And that therefore none within our bounds except they shall renounce Christianity and their Baptisme can be deemed by us to be without in the Apostles sense and so therefore not within the compass and verge of our Presbyterian Government Neither is it their not associating with us in regard of Government that doth exempt them from censure by it if they should be such offenders as by the rules thereof were justly censurable It not being a matter arbitrary for private Persons at their own will and pleasure to exempt themselves from under that Ecclesiastical Government that is settled by Authority And as you know it would not have been allowed of under the former Government 2 And therefore whether you and all others within our bounds be not comprehended within our Government according to the rules laid down in the Ordinance of Parliament above mentioned appointing the form of Church Government to be used in the Church of England and Ireland and therein ordaining as hath been recited before in the first page thereof and to which we referre you Especially considering that all within the bounds of our several Parishes that are no other now then formerly even Papists and Anabaptists and other Sectaries were under the late Prelatical Government we leave it to you to judge Onely if so we wish you to consider that then you are brought under the Government of Presbytery not so much by us as by the Parliament appointing this Government And then we think you who warn us not to contemn civil power might well out of respect to the Authority ordaining it but especially considering the word Presbytery is a known Scripture expression 1 Tim. 4 and interpreted by sundry of the Fathers as we do as hath been declared before have used a more civil expression then to have called it a common fold into which it should seem your complains it that you should be driven Although Presbytery layes restraint on none but such as being scandalous in their lives and so contemning the Laws of God are therefore truly and indeed the lawless Persons that we speak of But whereas as you suppose This is our chief design in this as in other transactions of ours to subject all to our Government We doe refer our selves to our course of life past and hope it will witnesse with us to all that will judge impartially what our designes have been in our other transactions And as touching our design in the Paper published whether it hath been ought but the information of the ignorant and reformation of the scandalous to the Glory of God and their salvation we leave it to be judged by those that will judge of mens intentions by what is expressed in their words and actions We know very well we are charged by some that we affect Dominion to Lord it over the People and to have all sorts of Persons of what rank soever to stoop to us But we do openly professe that the Government of the Church that is committed unto men is not Despotical but Ministerial That it is no Dominion but a Ministery onely And that the Officers that are intrusted with it are themselves to be subject both in regard of their bodies and estates to the Civil power That by the Ordinance of God they are appointed to be under and that in their Government they have nothing to do with the bodies and estates of any Persons but with their Souls onely Although here we desire to enquire of you whether if you be indeed for the settling of any Government at all in the Church as you professe to be you do not think that all should be subject to it We cannot judge you to be so irrational as to be for a Government and that yet subiection to it must be denyed And if the late Government of the Prelacy was not blamed by you because it required subjection to it we wish you to consider whether upon this account you have reason to censure us But further whereas you tell us That we garnish over our Government with the specious title of Christs Government Throne and Scepter We wish you to consider what in your Answer to an objection that you frame out of our Paper your selves doe say You there tell us You pray for the establishment of such Church Government as is consonant to the will of God and universal practice of primitive Churches that Ecclesiastical Discipline may be exercised in the hands of them to whom it was committed by Christ and left by him to be transferred from hand to hand to the end of the World The expressions you here use are as high touching that Government you would have established as any have been that ever we have used of ours For your prayer is That Ecclesiastical Discipline may be exercised in the hands of them to whom it was committed by Christ and left by him to be transferred from hand to hand to the end of the world The Government then that you are for must be with you Christs Government Throne and Scepter And why do you then condemn us if we have used such expressions concerning our Government till you have convinced us that it is not such When yet you take to your selves the liberty to use the like language concerning the Government you pray may be established But where as you say Presbytery is the main thing driven at here and that however she comes ushered in with a Godly pretence of sorrow for the sins and the ignorance of the times and the duty incumbent upon us
for which we shall heartily pray we cannot but judge that such as are within our bounds and live as lawlesse persons contemning the commands of God and so out of their rank and order and of which sort you deny not but that there may be some among us however they be subject to Law and the punishment of the Civil Sword as needs they must be yet being such as are justly censurable according to the rules of our Government we do not think they are thereby exempted from being reached by that Ecclesiastical Sword as you phrase it which both God and the Civil Authority hath intrusted us with And as we are farre from contemning the Authority of the Civil Magistrate and shall therefore out of due respect unto it and that the lawlesse might be curbed be ready not onely our selves as we have a call but also warn others as there may be occasion to make complaint to the Civil Power that so such offenders may be punished by corporal and pecuniary mulcts to the suppression of wickednesse and licentiousnesse and the Reformation of mens lives and manners Yet we do not apprehend why this should hinder us from warning the Members of our several Congregations to make complaint to the Eldership of those that walk disorderly and will not be reclaimed to the end they may be further dealt with as the nature of their offence may deserve We being fully assured from the word of truth That Excommunication is Gods ordinance appointed for the reformation of the scandalous and as you your selves acknowledged in the beginning of your Paper and being a spiritual punishment for the nature and kind of it through the blessing of God may be more available for the destruction of the flesh and the thorough humiliation of the offender then any corporal or pecuniary mulct that reaches but the outward man can be And as it was blessed with great successe for this end for many years together whilest the Church was destitute of Christian Magistrates Although in a Christian State we see not why we should divide what God hath joyned together We having not yet learned either from the Scriptures or sound reason that the conjunction of the Civil and Ecclesiastical Sword is not more likely through the same blessing of God to work a greater reformation in mens lives then either of them alone remembring that old Maxime Vis unita fortior And as touching our selves and the power we are intrusted to exercise we shall commit our endeavours unto his blessing in the use of his own appointed means who is able and we doubt not but he will make the same effectual for the ends for which he hath appointed them SECT VIII BUt you say There are other parts of our Paper that do likewise remain dark which you desire to be made plain Although we conceive not so of them yet we shall as willingly go along with you to give you further answer as you to desire the same of us And therefore whereas we having said in our Paper That there are many persons of all sorts that will not submit themselves to the present Government of the Church Your first Quaere thereupon is Why Government in singulari We answer because it is the onely Government that at present is established in this Church by Civil Authority The Prelatical being put down and cautioned against in the humble Advice in regard of any liberty to be extended to it for the exercise thereof And there being no other Government but the Presbyterian which is our Government that is owned as the Church-Government for the whole Nation by the Civil Authority And as it is that which we judge to be most agreeable to the will of God so also we conceive that whatever is of Christs prescribing in any other different Government whether Episcopal or Congregational is to be found here As we do apprehend the redundancies of them both to be taken away in this and the defects of them both to be here supplyed And however there may be differences amongst godly men concerning Church-Government which it is that Christ in particulari hath prescribed in his Word yet we judge that the Government which Christ hath prescribed in his Word is but one As all those must say so too that not being Erastians do hold That one Church-Government or other is of divine Right But whereas you bring in Calvin saying Seimus enim unicuique Ecclesiae c. To this we say The circumstantials of Government that are but matters of order onely and which must be suited to the time or place or persons for whom they are made and concerning which if you had quoted the place where Calvin useth these words we believe it would appear he speaks these being variable and so but the accidentals of Government may not be one and the same in all Churches But if Christ have prescribed a Government in his word for the substantials of it it must needs be de jure one and the same in every Church And that the Presbyterian Government is that in particular which is there prescribed in Calvins Judgement is so manifest by his works to the whole Christian world that it needs no proof But if the Government which Christ hath prescribed for the substantials of it be onely one then that alone is good and all other Governments differing substantially from it must needs be bad and this onely jure divino and Christs own Government and the rest not And therefore whereas in the next place you suppose We may assert that our Government is the Government by way of Eminency as Christs own Government more immediately and jure divino To this and to what you further hereupon do inquire we say we have declared already That we call'd it the present Government because it is the onely Government settled in the Church by the Civil Power But whether it be the Government by way of Eminency and jure divino that was not the thing referred unto in the phrase we used And as to the resolving of your doubts and scruples we conceive it is not here material for us to go about the proving of the Jus divinum of it we having proved That it is the Government that is established by the Civil Magisttate and which doth lay as good a foundation to evidence the lawfulnesse of your submission to it as for the lawfulnesse of your submission to the former Government and touching which we suppose you were satisfied your exceptions lying as much against the High-Commissioners Chancellors and Commissaries then as they can do now against the office of Ruling Elders and which is the chief thing we apprehend is stumbled at in our Government But yet if you desire to have satisfaction given you touching that which we are not ashamed to professe viz. the Jus divinum of the Presbyterian Government we referee you to what is so fully spoken touching this point by sundry learned Divines both of our own Church
and the reformed Churches abroad that we know not what can be added more And yet we do not say That there is no present Government in any Church or Assembly of Saints but where our Discipline and Government is erected intirely in all the parts of it no more then we should deny him to be a man in whom there were a defect of some integral parts or in whom there were some superfluous members But as when Antichristianisme so overspead the face of the Church in those dark times before the Reformation God preserved a Church Ministery and Ordinances though not without the mixture of many corruptions in doctrine and worship even amongst the Papists themselves So there was some of Christs Government and Discipline in the worst times though not intirely nor without the mixture of much corruption in that Discipline and Government And yet if you consult Antiquity you will not finde that the Presbyterian Government hath lyen hid so long as that for the space of 1500 years it could never be found till this present You have heard what rule did anciently belong to Presbyters notwithstanding that through the corruptions that crept into the Church in after times the exercise of that power was long disused And the like may be said of Ruling Elders and as hath been shewed by others But it is what de jure ought to be and not what de facto is or hath been which is that which you and we are chiefly to attend and concerning which the Scripture must be the onely Judge as we have said before But you say now subjection to our present Government is required by us and then demand Whether all that observe not our rank and order and subject not themselves to our present Government must be taken for lawlesse persons for so say you doth this close connexion of ours seem to import viz Many who do not subject but live c. But here you do reason fallaciously a bene conjunctis ad male divisa For in our Paper we spake of such as did live in a sinful and total neglect of the Lords Supper That were scandalous and offensive in their lives drunkards unclean persons and that will noâ— subject themselves to the present Government but live as lawlesse persons And therefore the lawlesse persons we meant and as might plainly have been gathered from our words were such who as they subiected not themselves to the present Government of the Church so they were also scandalous and offensive in their lives we joyning these together whom you divide And whether such as will neither submit themselves to the Laws of God nor the Government that is settled in the Church by the Civil Power be not lawlesse persons we leave it to you to judge But yet we do here also minde you That however we do not judge all those to be lawlesse persons that do out of conscience not come up to the observation of all those Rules which are or shall be established by Authority for regulating the outward worship of God and Government of the Church being otherwise blamelesse yet both you and we may well remember that such as should have refused to have subjected themselves to the late Prelatical Government would have been accounted in those times to have been lawlesse persons SECT IX BUt you say When we make it an order that notice shall be taken of all persons that forsake the publik Assemblies of the Saints you would gladly know how farr we extend this Saintship this Church and Assembly of Saints To which we answer as farr as the Apostle did when writing to the Church of Corinth and the Churches of Galatia he calls them Saints and Churches notwithstanding there were some in those Churches that were leavened with unsound doctrine and grosly erroneous In Corinth some that denied the Resurrection made rents and schisms and sundry grosly scandalous In the Churches of Galatia such as mixed works with Faith in the point of Justification and of which the Apostle Paul would have those Churches to take notice even to the censuring of them they being spots to those Assemblies and however Saints by profession and in regard of outward calling being in Covenant with God and having been baptized yet answered not their profession by suitable conversation And therefore however there be sundry of the like stamp in our Assemblies we do not therefore unchurch them or make our Assemblies not the Assemblies of the Saints because of the corruption of such members And seeing our principles and practises are manifestly known to be utterly against the opinions and practises of the Donatists of old and those that have of late rent themselves from our Churches because of the scandalousnesse of the corrupt members that are found in them though the sin of these in our Churches is aggravated by giving that occasion you might well have spared your pains in transcribing out of Augustine what he justly said unto those schismaticks that he had to deal with Nay you might rather have gathered from our Paper That seeing we said that notice should be taken of all those that should forsake the publick Assemblies of the Saints our purpose was to have censured such as the Donatists were That we purposed to observe and censure those that did maintain and hold up private meetings in opposition to the publick That cry down our Churches and publick Assemblies Ministery and Ordinances as you know several forts do and who as they hold sundry grosse errors that subvert the faith so in regard of those and other their practises that in their own nature doe manifestly subvert the order unity and peace that Christ hath established in his Church doe justly fall under Church censure according to the rules of our Government above mentioned And that therefore we were not altogether silent concerning either the sin or punishment of such as did erre grosly in doctrinals or in discipline so as to make such dangerous rents from the Church as the fore-named Sectaries do Contrary to what you say of us in your Paper And further by such as forsake the publick Assemblies of the Saints of whom we said notice should be taken you might have gathered our meaning was that such of which sort there are but too many amongst us who out of a principle of carelesness sloth worldliness or manifest prophaneness do on the Lords day either idle out the time or else are worse imployed when they should resort to the publick Assemblies and who as they are no friends to any private meetings for the good of their souls in the use of any private means of conference or prayer for that end So they doe also Atheistically turn their backs on all the publick Ordinances forsaking them and the Assemblies where these are dispensed should be taken notice of in order to censure if there was not reformation and to neither of which sort of persons any indulgence is granted by any Laws of the Land that we
And but that we see you are possessed with too much perjudice against the Eldership we should much have wondred that you who in the beginning of your Paper tell us you had seriously weighed ours should here in the close have run into such a great mistake as not to have distinguished betwixt the Persons that were to be admonished in order to further censure if they hearkened not thereunto and the Persons that were to be exhorted onely If that which led you into this mistake was the consideration that they were both joyned together in the same order and therefore were both to be dealt with after the same manner your argument was very weak there being nothing more frequent in Scripture and all other Authors then to couple together in one and the same verse and sentence things of a different nature But if that had been your ground of doubting yet if you had attended to what presently followed there had been no place for stumbling in so plaine a matter For that which follows is so limited that it could not with any colour be applyed to those that being exhorted by the Minister to present themselves to the Eldership should still refuse For it speaks expressely of such that should neither hearken to pritate Admonition nor the Admonition of the Eldership that their names should be published openly in the Congregation and therefore of those onely who had been appointed to be admonished according to Christs rule Mat. 18. in the fourth Order Now the Persons that were to be admonished according to the rule of Christ Mat. 18. and spoken of in the fourth Order were onely such as had been mentioned immediately before viz. Such as should forsake the publique Assemblies and such as were scandalous Persons But yet to make the matter still more plain let it be considered that it could not with any shew of reason be construed to be our meaning that such Persons who were found to be of competent knowledge and blameless in life if not harkening to the Minister exhorting them to present themselves before the Eldership were to have their names published and if still refusing then to be excommunicated For the Persons that were to be thus dealt with were to be admonished by the Eldershid and reject that admonition before there were to be those further proceedings But how could such Persons that being exhorted by the Minister to present themselves to the Eldership and refused to come before them be admonished by them But if you say the Persons that the Minister is to exhort to present themselves before the Eldership are mentioned immediately before this order made touching the publishing of mens names and therefore must needs be included in this order and the relative they be referred to these as well as to the other This Argument also is very weak For those amongst you that are Scholers do well know That the Relative is often referred to the remoter Antecedent and must be so of necessity when the subject matter spoken of doth necessarily require it as in this case it is clear it doth For the Relative They in the fifth order is limited to such as should neither hearken to private Admonition nor to the Admonition of the Eldership and these were onely the scandalous and the forsakers of poblique Assemblies that were to be admonished according to Christs rule Mat. 18. and which was that which was appointed by the former branch of the fourth order But you will parhaps say if this was our meaning why is the Ministers exhorting of knowing and blameless Persons to present themselves before the Eldership mentioned in the same order with those that are to be admonished in order to further censure in case the Admonition be not hearkened to if the same rule be not to be held with them as with the others in case of refusall To which we say The Admonition spoken of in the fourth order is said expressely should be according to the rule of Christ Mat. 18. Now that mentions not onely an Admonition to be given by the Church when the case is brought thither but also an Admonition once or twice by private Persons And therefore as when the fittest opportunity is offered to private Persons to perform this duty of Admonition toward an offending Brother they are to lay hold upon it and not let it slip so we judged it a fit opportunity offered to the Minister when he Catechizeth the Families to exhort such amongst them whom he found to be of competent knowledg and were blamless in life to present themselves before the Eldership in order to their Admission to the Sacrament And the rather because haveing the opportunity of conference with them at this time if they had any doubts about this matter or he saw that it was prejudice onely in them against the Elders that hindered them and as it is in most he might indeavour to remove them And this might have been easily conceived was the reason thereof by any that had but seriously weighed what we had expressed in our Paper if there had been that candor that we could have desired And therefore we cannot imagine what there should be in our Paper that should give the least just occasion for such a strange sense as you would herein put upon us And we hope all indifferent and unprejudiced Persons will say we have given as little occasion by our Carriages as there is given by our words We have studied all wayes of condescension for the gaining of all That neither the weak might be discoraged nor any that can with any colour pretend to tenderness of Conscience in the matter of presenting themselves before the Eldership have any bar put in the way of their Communicating with us at the Lords Table in regard of that order that is observed for their Admission But we finde that the Eldership is that great stumbling-block with many And we are sorry that we have reason to complain that Let us do what can yet some will be satisfied with nothing but pulling down the hedg and laying all common But we dare not thus far seek to please men though we desire to please our neighbour for his good to edification We have thus far removed all imaginable grounds in our apprehensions for this your groundless charge That our purpose was to excommunicate all knowing and blameless Persons if they presented not themselves before the Eldership We shall now proceed to examine what you produce for the supporting of your selves in it And that which we finde in the first place is besides your omitting to take any notice of the first branch of this fourth order something in your comment upon our words which was not in our Text. For you say What if after the Minister hath exhorted them they shall not present themselves before the Eldership The Minister say you must exhort and admonish them But this as we have told you is wholly your own and none of ours For first
though we do not deny But that if upon the first exhortation they do not present themselves to the Eldership it being in order to their regular and orderly Admission to the Lords Supper the Minister may exhort and exhort them again because they continue in the neglect of that which is their duty yet there was no such thing said by us But then to make the ground of your charge something more colourable you added another word which was not at all used by us We said the Minister was to exhort and that was all But you adde and say He shall exhort and admonish But we have told you before to exhort and admonish are different things And we leave it to indifferent Judges to consider whether this be a candid and fair waâ— of arguing even in the Schools much lesse should it have been made use of when it is brought in to bear up the weight of so heavy a charge as you here put up against us And this is the main foundation whereupon all the rest is built But your ground work being so unsure what you built thereon must needs fall Yet you go on to make it good as far as you can and therefore do further add and say But what if they still refuse Their names say you shall be published c. But what 's your proof for this That 's say you the fifth Order But here you quite mistake your mark and therefore when you have considered it your selves will not wonder you should shoot so wide For the fifth Order speaks only of Persons that have been privately admonished and also admonished by the Eldership Of which the former branch of the fourth order speaks And what sort of Persons that refers to is manifest from our Paper and hath been by us shewed before that it cannot by any good Rules of construction be referred to the Persons that the Minister is to exhort and which is the latter branch of the fourth Order And this link of your chain being thus broken the rest of it which follows must needs of it self fall in sunder So that we need to add no more And so we have done with the examination of what you have presented to us in your Paper But we do not finde that you have discovered to us any thing in ours that is not sound and orthodox and for which therefore there is any just reason why any thing in it should lye sadly on your spirits and consciences But do hope after you have seriously weighed what is here presented you may receive so much satisfaction as to see you have no just cause to forbear joyning with us upon any grounds you have here made known We have been willing to put our selves upon some pains in this our large Answer And if it attain the desired end we shall not account it ill bestowed If yet you should rest unsatisfied we desire you to let us know what it is you stumble at And though in regard of sundry other imployments that lye upon us it cannot be expected that we who meet but once a moneth in ordinary and about other matters should hold on a course of Answering you still by writing Yet we shall be ready to appoint some other way that may be far more speedy and we trust as effectual to give you that further satisfaction that is meet and just And now we shall intreat that as our only aime in this Anser hath not been victory but the clearing up of the Truth the satisfying your scruples and giving you a right understanding in what you were mistaken and the vindication of the Government and our selves and hereby the setling of Peace and Unity in our Congregations to the glory of God and edification of the Church So you would shew forth that Candor as not to put any other construction upon what is here offered to you And as you subscribe your selves our brethren desirous of Truth Unity and Peace in the Church So we shall heartily begge of the God of Truth and Peace that both you and we may all of us in all our transactions make it to appear that we are cordial and real in our professions of such desires and that he would bless these and all other our sincere endevours that they may be effectual for the attaining those ends Subscribed in the Name and by the appointment of the Class by John Angier Moderator THE GENTLEMENS Second Paper To the first Classis at Manchester within the Province of Lancaster These Dear Friends nay more Brethren dearly beloved to us in the Lord WE return you hearty thanks for your Answer wherein we finde your much Civility towards us but with too much prolixity We deny not but there may be some errours and mistakes and some sharp reflections upon you and your Government in our Paper which you charge upon us In yours also and that not improbably in one of that bulk might be discovered so me Impertinencies errours and mistakes which we forbear to minde you of but silently pass over hoping all will be buried or covered in that true love and Charity of Brethren of one and the same Church and fellowship In that true love we say which covereth a multitude of faults We shall make no further Replication to the several particulars in your Paper at this time but only to one Branch wherein you refer us to Dr. Bernard In the close of whose Book we meet with one intituled The Reduction of Episcopacy unto the form of Synodical Government received in the Ancient Church By the most Reverend and Learned Father of our Church Dr. James Vsher late Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of all Ireland proposed in the year 1641. as an expedient for the prevention of those troubles which afterwards did arise about the matter of Church Government which you say is the same in substance with yours Your words are these But if the Antiquity of such Assemblies be that you Question Then we refer you to what Dr. Bernard in the Book of his above quoted shews was the judgement of Dr. Usher who is acknowledged by all that knew him or are acquainted with his works to have been a great Antiquary however we alleadge him not that you should build your faith on his Testimony And which we think may be sufficient to vindicate Provinciall Assemblies in your thoughts from the Suspicion of Novelty In that Book you have in the close of it proposals touching the Reduction of Episcopacy unto the form of Synodical Government received in the Ancient Church And it thus begins By the order of the Church of England c. And so you go on quoting several Testimonies of Fathers and Councils there alleadged In which you further proceed and say There are Proposals of Assemblies of Pastors within certain limited bounds which saving that they are somewhat larger then ours which is but a circumstantial difference do hold proportion with the Classical Provincial and National Assemblies mentioned
in the form of our Church Government As also the times propounded there for their meetings the power of these Assemblies c. and are the same in substance as with us And all these were propounded as the way of Government in the Ancient Church and as an Expedient c. as abovesad And therefore for so you conclude in the Judgement of this learned and Reverend Antiquary our Provincial Assembly at Preston where the Pastors of the Church are members as he acknowledgeth of right they ought to be in such Assemblies would not have been accounted a new Termed Provincial Assembly Touching all which we shall close and joyn issue with you we willingly submit our selves to that order aud rule therein Expressed which being that which was received in the Ancient Church In the Judgement of that Reverend and learned Antiquary Dr. Vsher who was so acknowledged by all that knew him or are acquainted with his works And also the Assemblies there expressed holding proportion with yours set down in the form of your Church Government and being the same with yours in substance and being proposed as an Expedient for prevention of further troubles c. We fully expect you should also submit your selves unto for Peace and Unities sake and so we close and meet together as in the middle And this the rather in regard of those full and free expressions of yours to that purpose saying We reverence Dr. Bernard for his moderation and profession of his desires for peace wishing That such as do consent in Substantials for matter of Doctrine would consider of some Conjunction in point of Discipline That private Interests and Circumstantials might not keep themselves so far asunder In which wish as we do cordially joyn our selves so we heartily desire that all godly and moderate spirited men throughout the Land would also close And in another place you say However we dare not admit of a moderate Episcopacy for fear of encroachings upon the Pastors right c. Yet we do here professe we should so far as will consist with our principles and the peace of our own Consciences be ready to abate or tolerate much for peace sake That so at the length all parties throughout the Land that have any soundness in them in matters of faith and that are sober and godly though of different judgements in lesser matters being weary of their divisions might fall into the necks of one another with mutual embraces and kisses and so at last through the tender mercy of our God there might be an happy closure of breaches and restoring of peace and union in this poor unsetled rent and distracted Church to the glory of God throughout all Churches Now who are they that disturbe this our happy closure and conjunction We wish not with the Apostle that they were cut off but that they were taken away that trouble us for only they let that will let untill they be taken out of the way and those are the Ruling Elders as you call them We suppofe you mean those whom you have chosen out of the Laity and admitted without further entring into holy Orders into the whole execise of Ecclesiastical jurisdiction in equal right with the Ministers of the Gospel in which respect your Assemblies and so your Provincial at Preston would be accounted in the judgement of Dr. Vsher a new termed Provincial assembly and stand yet uncleared of suspition of novelty whom you say You cannot consent to part with unlesse you should betray the Truth of Christ as you judge quoting Rom. 12. 1 Cor. 12. 1 Tim. 5. and for further Testimony refer us to some Modern Authors all of yesterday Now whereas you say you cannot part with them unless you betray the Truth of Christ as you judge By this Parenthesis we gather that you are not so wedded to that opinion but you can and will submit to better reason when offered to you And we do again profess to you that we will not willfully and pertinaciously hold a contrary Tenent And in this confidence we proceed to shew to you that Lay-Elders are not meant nor mentioned in those Texts by you alledged Briefly thus but more largely hereafter if what is comprehended in this paper be not judged satisfactory Run over all the Expositers of holy writ whether the Fathers in general or more particular Councils And Calvin saith there can be no better nor surer remedy for deciding ofcontroversies no better sense nor Interpretation of Scripture then what is given by them in such Councils or whether the Fathers apart And first for that Text Rom. 12. here what Dr. Andrews saith and at your leisure examine the Fathers There is no Epistle saith he on which so many of the Fathers have writ Six only I will name Origen Chrysostome Theodoret Ambrose Jerom Oecumenius All which have treated of it Let their Commentaries be looked on upon that place not one of them applyeth it to the Church Government which by all likelihood could not be imagined but they would if that had been the main place for it nor finde those Offices in those words which they in good earnest tell us of c. As much may be said for the other two Texts Not one Father in their Comments upon them giveth such a sense Finde one Exposition for you and which is much we will yield you all Many there are that apply them to the Bishops And so one for those many of our Modern Doctors we could give you to answer those modern you quote in behalf of your Elders of our English Church Dr. Fulk by name we instance in applying these Texts to the Bishops only whom we quote in regard of the moderate judgement he was supposed to be of in point of Church-government and therefore more likely to sway with you than any other we could produce His words are these Amongst the Clergy for Order and Government there was alwayes one principal to whom by long use of the Church the name of Bishop or Super-intendent hath been applyed which in Scripture is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quoting these Texts Rom. 12. 8. 1 Tim. 5. 17. and Heb. 13. 17. And therefore it can be no betraying of the Truth of Christ if you will seriously weigh it in the ballance of impartial and unprejudicate reason to part with them and to take in the other but a strengthening and a backing of it Wherefore in the name of God and in the tender bowels of Christ we beg again and again beseeching you not to stand upon circumstantials or private interests But to apply your selves to this happy conjuncture and reconcilement of so many poor Christian Souls in truth love and peace in this our English Church in these our days The blessing that may redound to all parties thus reconciled is unconceiveable The lives and manners of dissolute persons and how many there are amongst our selves of that sort we are but too too conscious
withheld you from running into the like and worse again as had there not been a further discovery of the distemper of your spirit we should have been willing to have passed them over and covered them in love upon this confession according to that hope thereof which you do here profess And as touching the impertinencies errors and mistakes which you say not improbably might be discovered in ours and which here you forbear to minde us of in your next paper you speak out what here might be in your thoughts and which we shall forbear to return any answer to untill we come thither But thus are we brought to the matter of this Paper And here the Reader will perceive that the main thing you do pitch upon in the first place is what we had quoted out of Dr. Bernard showing the judgement of Dr. Vsher concerning the antiquity of the Assemblies he mentions and particularly of Provincial and which the Reader may see more at large if he be pleased to peruse the third Section of our answer toward the latter end of it Concerning all this you profess you shall close and joyn issue with us and that you willingly submit your selves to that order and rule therein expressed which being that which was received in the ancient Church in the judgement of that reverend and learned Antiquary Dr. Vsher who was so acknowledged by all that know him or are acquainted with his workes And also the Assemblies there expressed holding proportion with ours set down in the form of our Church Government and being the same with ours in substance and being proposed as an expedient for prevention of further troubles which have arisen about the matter of Church Government you do hereupon infer that you fully expect we should also submit our selves unto for Peace and Unities sake and this the rather in regard of those full and free expressions of ours â—o that purpose in the places of our answer which you do here particularly recite Unto all which we â—ave several and sundry things to say 1. And first we desire it might here be took notice of what order and rule it is that is propounded by Dr. Vsher in his reduction of Episcopacy to the form of Synodical Government received in the ancient Church it is Episcopacy something moderated and limited it being there propounded That in every Parish the Rector or incumbent Pastor together with the Churchwardens and Sidesmen may every week take notice of such as live scandalously in the Congregation who are to receive such several admonitions and reproofes as the quality of their offence shall deserve and if by this means they cannot be reclaimed they may be presented to the next monthly Synod and in the mean time be debarred by the Pastor from accesse unto the Lords Table as is evident from the first proposal And he then propounds that the Suffragans in the several rural Deaneries supplying the place of those who in the ancient Church were called Chorepiscopi might every moneth assemble a Synod of all the Rectors or incumbent Pastors within the Precinct and according to the major part of their voices conclude all matters that shall be brought into debate before them as is manifest from the second Proposal And then further it is proposed that the Diocesan Synod might be held once or twice in the year as it should be thought most convenient and that therein all the Suffragans and the rest of the Rectors or incumbent Pastors or a certain select number of every Deanery within the Diocess might meet or with whose consent or the major part of them all things might be concluded by the Bishop or Superintendent c. This is the sum of the third Proposall The like is propounded for the Provincial and National Synods saving that here all the Bishops and Suffragans of every Diocess are to be members in these Assemblies and only such of the Clergy as should be elected and the Archbishops to be the Moderators of these Assemblies as is clear from the fourth Proposal Now this is that Order and rule that you do here professe your selves willing to submit unto And therefore you would consent that some Ministers at the least might for the present have some power in the governing of the Church but whether you would by these proposals take your selves obliged to submit to be governed by all the Ministers placed in Chappels throughout the several Parishes that yet for sure are equall to the rest of their fellow Presbyters in order and jurisdiction or only to those that are benefic'd men as they were wont to be called we do much question and wheâ—her you would consent that any other should vote in any of the fore mentioned Assemblies we do also doubt as we have also reason from what you expresse in your next paper to fear you would but consent only thus far because you may perceive by these proposals where the Suffragans Bishops and Archbishops are to be constant Moderators in the Assemblies mentioned and without whom as we apprehend you will understand them nothing might passe and be concluded notwithstanding what was concluded should be done by the major part of the incumbent Pastors or Rectors present and when in the Diocesan Synod all the Suffragans must be members and in the Provincial and National all the Suffragans and Bishops fair way is made to raise up Episcopacy again to the height to which it had attained of latter times especially when as you will perhaps further conceive from these proposals that all that were to be admitted into any Benefice must come in only by the Suffragans or Bishops and these likewise come in according as they had been wont to be admitted to these places in former times And if this be all you would willingly submit unto as we have some reason to believe it is that which you would yeeld unto for peace sake is not much 2. But since you lay great stresse upon what we quoted out of Dr. Vsher we desire the Reader would peruse our answer throughly in which he shall not finde that we did â—â—e him as approving of all that he had propounded nay we expresly cautioned against Moderate Episcopacy much lesse did we quote him as Umpire and composer of differences betwixt you and us or as our own man as in your next Paper much forgetting your selves you do confidently assert but we quoted him only to prove the Antiquity of Provinciall Assemblies where the Pastors of the severall Congregations to whom he alloweth a decisive Vote are Members And we conceived that if you should be for Episcopacie in the height of it he was the fittest Person to be quoted by us to moderate you as to that particular It 's true we sayd That the Assemblies that were by him proposed within certain limited bounds saving that they were something larger then ours which we sayd was but a circumstantiall difference did hold proportion with those set down
shall be severall of them found to allow of the thing it self and give testimony to the being of these Officers in the Church in their time We shall here mention onely some of those that may be alledged touching this particular And first Ambrose his words on 1 Tim. 5. 1. are full and plain to our purpose Vnde synagoga postea Ecclesia seniores habuit quorum sine consilio nihil agebatur in Ecclesia Quod qua negligentia obsoleverit nescio nisi forte doctorum desidia aut magis superbia dum sibi volunt aliquid videri i. e. Whence both the Synagogue and afterwards the Church had Elders without whose counsell nothing was done in the Church Which thing by what negligence it grew out of use I know not unless perhaps through the Teachers sloathfulness or rather haughtiness while they alone would be thought somewhat In the next place observe what Optatus saith lib. 1. Adversus Parmen Eram Ecclesie ex auro argento quam plurima â—rnamenta quae nec defodere terra nec secum poâ—tare poterat quare fidelbus Ecclesiae senioribus commendavit i. i. e. The Church had many Ornaments of Gold and Silver which she could neither hide in the Earth nor carry away with her which she committed to the Elders The Provinciall Assembly of London do observe that Albaspinaeus that learned Antiquary upon the place acknowledgeth that besides the Clergy there were certain of the Elders of the people men of approved life that did tend the Affaires of the Church of whom this place is to be understood To these we may add That Austine gives frequent intimations of the ruling Elder in his time We shall here onely mention some places In his 137. Epistle to those of his owne Church he thus directs it Dilectissimis fratribus Clero Senioribus universae plebi Ecclesiae Hipponensis i. e. To the most beloved Brethren the Clergy Elders and all the people of the Church at Hippo. Where we see Elders are mentioned distinctly and are interposed between the Clergy and the people as distinct from both Again De verb. Dom. Serm. 19. Cum ob errorem aliquem asâ—nioribus arguuntur imputatur alicui de illis cur ebrius fuerit c. When they are reprehended for any errour by the Elders and its imputed to any of them why was he drunk c. So againe Lib. 3. contra Cresconium cap. 56. Peregrinus Presbyter seniores Musticanae regionis Peregrine the Presbyter and the Elders of the Mustican Region And long before him Origen contra Celsum lib. 3. hath this passage Nonnulli praepositi sunt qui in vitam mores eorum qui admittuntur inquirant ut qui turpia committant iis communi caelu interdicant c i. e. There are some Rulers appointed who may enquire concerning the Conversation and manners of those that are admitted that they may debar from the common Assembly such as commit filthiness This place of Origen is clear for ruling Elders whose work it is to enquire into the Conversation and manners of those that are admitted to communicate with the Congregation at the Lords Table and is so understood by others as well as our selves We might alledge more Testimonies of the Fathers for the proof of what we are in hand with but that we judge these sufficient Even those that do oppose the ruling Elders Office with too much vehemency are forced to confess that besides Pastors and Doctors and besides Magistrates and Elders of the City there are to be found in Antiquity Seniores ecclesiastici Ecclesiasticall Elders also But they will have them to be onely as our Church-wardens or rather as our Vestry-men as one of them speaks See the Author of Episcopacy by divine right pag. 146. whereas the Testimonies alledged shew they were Rulers and Judges in Causes Ecclesiasticall and did assist the Ministers of the Word in the ruling and governing of the Church which being very clear from the above mentioned Testimonies and others of the like kind another zealous enough against them would have them to be some or other in chief Rank amongst the rest of the people taken in occasionally for advice and present assistance and so an extraordinary kind of Church-Guardians without any peculiar and setled Jurisdiction Which is but gratis dictum sayd without all proof See Velitatienes polemicae by I. D. pag. 96 But at last this Author as not satisfied with former Answers given and granting that the Fathers in truth do make for them as indeed they do yet he would not have their Testimonies amount to so much as to the clearing up of Divine Right so strongly stood upon by divers as he speaks But the matter of Fact then is granted that there were such Ecclesiastical Officers which the Fathers owned and allowed of And being the Divine Right of their Office was not then questioned it is as easie for us to affirm that as those Fathers did not deny it so they owned it as it is for that Author to say That they were but admitted as an expedient and behoovefull Order in the Church or on prudentiall grounds To use his own expressions quoted before Vide Pag. 96. Sect. 30. Although this being granted will be sufficient to vindicate this Office of the ruling Elder from all suspition of novelty and to shew That it was no new fangled device of Calvin at Gevena as some tauntingly have sayd And for your admittance of the ruling Elder this might be sufficient for your satisfaction as we think according to your Principles But now to return to the Texts alledged by us to prove the Divine Right of the ruling Elders Office After you had sent us to the Fathers to consult them you tell us Many there are that apply them to the Bishops and amongst these you instance Doctor Fulk applying these Texts to the Bishops onely whom you say you quote in regard of the moderate Judgment he was supposed to be of in point of Church-government c. But you having not dealt so fairely with Calvin as had been meet you must pardon us if we cannot take the matter you quote him for upon trust and from your representation of him You do not here cite the place but for what reason your selves best know as we leave it to the Reader for to judge But the words that you alledge out of him though mangled by you we find in him in his Answer to the Rhemists on Titus 1. 5. And we shall give them the Reader intirely and at full length and they are these Amongst whom speaking of the Clergy for Order and seemly Government there was alwaies one Principall to whom by long use of the Church the name of Bishop or superintendent hath been applyed Which Room Titus exercised at Crete Timothy in Ephesus and others in other places Therefore although in Scripture a Bishop and an Elder is of one Order and Authority in preaching the Word and administration of
the Sacraments as Hierome doth often confess yet in Government by ancient use of Speech he is onely called a Bishop which is in the Scripture called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rom. 12. 8. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 17. However it is not reasonable that we should be obliged to own every expression here used by this reverend Author who is produced by you as an Adversary to us in the matter in Controversie yet here we desire that it might be observed 1. That he onely saith for Order and seemly Government there was alwaies one Principall to whom by long use of the Church the name of Bishop or superintendent hath been applyed By which words he seems clearly to intimate that that superiority which a Bishop had above the rest of the Clergy or Presbyters was but an Ecclesiasticall Constitution onely in that he ascribes it to Order and Decency 2. He makes a Bishop and an Elder in Scripture to be but of one Order and Autority in preaching the Word and Administration of the Sacraments as he saith Hierom doth often confess all which you leaving out do obscure Doctor Fulk's meaning For he asserting a Bishop and an Elder in Scripture to be but of one Order and Authority in preaching the Word and attributing the difference that is betwixt them in regard of Government to the ancient use of Speech sc That he onely is called a Bishop which is in Scripture called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. citing the Texts above mentioned doth intimate a quite different sense to what you alledge him for For he doth not say that the Scripture in these Texts called the Bishop onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for which purpose you alledge him but that by ancient use of Speech which might be different from the use of Scripture and as in this particular it was he is called a Bishop which is in Scripture called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. By which we doubt not it is clear to the judicious Reader that Doctor Fulk is not in the number of those many that you say apply these Texts to the Bishops onely taking the word Bishops as you take them We have now done with that you have produced here to satisfie us touching Lay-Elders as you call them that they are not meant nor mentioned in those Texts by us alledged which you undertook with some confidence but have as unsatisfactorily performed as we think ever any did that did attempt a matter of this nature Yet you now proceed hereupon to make your inference That therefore it can be no betraying the truth of Christ to part with the ruling Elders if we will seriously weigh it in the Ballance of impartiall and unprejudicate reason which yet you have not produced that might with any shew be sufficient to satisfie the Conscience either of us or any other men and to take in the other i. e. the Bishops which you say would be but a strengthning and a backing of it though we see not how And now you fall upon exhorting and beseeching us in the name of God which we hope is dear unto us and in the tender Bowels of Jesus Christ for whom we are willing to suffer the loss of all things and to whom we profess to owe our selves and whatever we are or can do as unto the Lord that bought us and to whom we must be faithfull as being his Stewards not to stand upon circumstantials though the ruling Elder whom you exhort us to part with is not a meer circumstantiall matter he being a Member of Christs Organicall Body and an Officer appointed by him in his Church as hath been already shewed or private interests which we see not how is any way advanced by our pleading for the ruling Elder but to apply our selves to the way of conjuncture and reconcilement of many poor Christian Soules whose Welfare we have reason to tender as we hope we do propounded by you and called by you happy though as we have shewed apprehended by us to be both dangerous and indeed destructive unto Union and asserted by you to be a way of reconcilement of them in truth love and peace and which if we could discern we should upon that account embrace with all our hearts we having already professed enough for peace and whether our Professions and Hearts do not go together is known to the Searcher of the Hearts and Reins as our earnest contending for the truth is that which hinders some men from being at peace with us But after you have propounded the tearms of reconciliation which you beseech and beg of us againe and againe to accept of though we should not need to be so earnestly intreated if they were safely to be admitted of you come to urge some Fruits that would ensue upon our hearkning to your motion And here we shall not deny but the blessing that might redound to all parties in a just way of reconciliation would be unconceivable as it is that we shall be ready to lay out our selves to our utmost for as we see there is any hope or probability to attain it We do also confess that the lives and manners of dissolute persons and how many there are amongst your selves of that sort you say you are but to too conscious as we do earnestly pray that both you and we may be so sensible thereof as that we may more truly and deeply lay it to heart may by a true loving accord which yet is to be in the way of truth with brotherly admonition and exhortation be reclaimed and in which way their reformation is most desirable or by due censures corrected and amended we not being willing that such sharp Physick should be applyed for any other end But here we cannot but express our feares least there be some amongst us and we heartily wish that you be not found in the number that are of that temper that whatever might be the fruit of brotherly admonition and Church censures and of reconciliation and union amongst all Parties and hereof you profess to be desirous they are resolved to be reconciled in no other way then upon admittance of Episcopacy and casting out of the ruling Elder But with those that are of this stamp we have no hopes of any cordiall Union till God alter their Judgments and change their hearts But whereas to perswade us to accept of the tearms of Union by you propounded you now do further add and say That amongst our selves also many who returning to their Canonical Obedience which they have sworn to may blot out the charge of Schisme that lies upon them and the Church of God be continued amongst us from age to age to the end of the world in a succession of a lawfully ordained Ministry We are far from being convinced by these Argument and must take the liberty to speak to them particularly and fully that so we may wipe off the Aspersions that thereby
are cast upon us and the Church of God The Arguments you here urge are two we shall speak unto them both and in their order 1. And here we shall speak in the first place unto the charge of Schisme that you would fasten upon us reserving unto another place our Answer unto the charge of Perjury where you do it more plainly and expresly though here you might intend to insinuate it But as touching that of Schisme you plainely declare That such Ministers and of this sort you say there are many amongst us though if we should put you to prove this you would never be able to make it out as return not to that canonical Obedience as you call it which they were sworn to as you say lye under the blot of Schisme But in your next Paper you charge us with this more then once and call it a Rent indeed a Schisme in the highest We shall not examine that which you here seem to take for granted sc that all Ministers that were ordained by Bishops did swear Canonicall Obedience to them which we are sure is very untrue concerning many as how far those that did take any such Oathes were bound to obey is not to our purpose now to discuss But as to that blot of Schisme you would bring us and the Ministers of these Nations under who return not to that Obedience they sometimes yielded to their severall Diocesans we must speak the more fully because the Charge is foul 1. But we shall in the first place speak something of the nature of Schisme The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Schisme signifies a Rent or Division So it is used 1 Cor. 12. 25. That there be no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Schisme in the body In Js. 7. 43. its sayd There was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a schisme or division among the people because of Christ And John 9. 16. Therefore some of the Pharisees said this man is not of God because he keepeth not the Sabbath day Others said how can a man that is a sinner do such Miracles And there was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a division or schism among them So John 10. 19. And so we read Acts 4. 4. That the multitude was divided and part held with the Jews and part with the Apostles This acceptation of the word is general and may comprehend under its Latitude any kind of Dissention And hereupon Divines though restraining it to Dissentions or Divisions about matters of Religion speak of a good Schisme that is justifiable which is the dissolution of a bad Union and that is but a conspiracy against God as was that Union that was amongst the Jews before they heard the Doctrine of Christ of which John 10. 19. By this kind of Schisme afterwards the whole World was rent and of which Christ speaks Matth. 20. 35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his Father c. And hereupon Gerhardus in answer to Bellarmines charge of Schism upon the Protestants saith Denique concedimus nos esse sano sensu schismaticos quia scilicet ab Ecclesia Romana ejus capite Pontifice Romano secessionem fecimus nequaquam vero ab unitate Ecclessiae ejus capite Christo Jesu nos separavimus At beatum schisma per quod Christo verae catholicae Ecclesiae uniti sumus This Schisme is that which is commanded Come out of her my people Revel 18. 4. And of this Schisme Ambrose speaks Siqua est Ecclesia quae fidem respuit deserenda est 1. e. If there be any Church that refuseth the faith it is to be forsaken But as when we speak of Schisme it is usually taken in the worse part so it is the bad and sinfull Shisme that is here spoken of But thus also it is sometimes taken generally for any division in the Church that is unwarrantable and so it comprehends also Heresie And so the words Heresie and Schisme are sometimes used in the same sense 1 Cor. 11. 19. For there must needs be Heresies or Schismes or Sects that those that are approved may be made manifest among them Although strictly Heresie be opposed unto Faith and Schisme unto Charity And this leads us to shew what Schisme is taken strictly and properly which in brief may be thus described Schisme is a dissolution or breach of that union that ought to be amongst Christians consenting together in the same Faith And because this breach of Union doth chiefly appear in denying or refusing Communion with the Church in the use of Gods publick Ordinances therefore that kind of separation is by a kind of singular appropriation truly and rightly called Schisme Thus much for the opening the nature of Schisme Now because you here charge us with it we must needs tell you the charge is great For Schisme truly and properly so called and as it is taken in the worser part is a very hurtfull dangerous and pernicious evil The Apostle warned to take heed of it and condemned it in the Church of Corinth 1 Cor. 1. V. 10. 11 12 13. It is a work of the flesh and therefore the Apostle proves the Corinthians to be carnall because of the divisions that were among them 1 Cor. 3. 3 4. It is a great offence against Christs being a rending of the Unity of his mystical Body It is a wrong unto the Church whose peace is thereby disturbed and to the Members of the Church their edification being thereby hindred And to conclude Schisme opens the door unto Heresie into which it doth oftentimes degenerate and so makes way to separation from Christ And therefore you here charging us to lye under the blot of Schisme untill Episcopacy be againe admitted of and there be a returning to that Obedience that formerly hath been given to the Bishops should have produced some Arguments for the making out your Charge But here you are wholly silent and think it sufficient to insinuate this so high a Charge without giving any reasons to convince us of our guiltinesses As if we must presently without reason judge our selves because you accuse us 2. Yet because some may be ready to take the matter upon trust and except we purge our selves from this Crime by saying something for our selves conclude we are guilty because you say so we shall therefore in the second place offer to the Reader these following considerations that we may thereby clear our selves from this foul aspersion 1. That though Episcopacy be never restored and neither we nor any other Ministers in this Land return to that Canonicall Obedience that hath formerly been yielded yet still both we and they may continue in Communion with the same Church of England that we held Communion with during the continuance of Episcopacy and with which we also do hold communion in all the Ordinances of Gods Worship Word Sacraments and Prayer This in the beginning of this Paper you do not deny for you there speak of us as
Brethren of one and the same Church and Fellowship And we know not what other Church you mean but the Church of England some of you that are the Subscribers of this Paper not being Members of the particular Church at Manchester nor any of you acknowledging or owning our Presbyterian Classicall Church or Association And therefore you here take us to be of the same Church of England with your selves and confess that we are in fellowship with it notwithstanding Episcopacy be taken away and which is that which we our selves do constantly profess 2. That that Episcopacy that was submitted to by the Ministers of this Land of later times was burthensome and grievous It spoyled the Pastors of that power which of right did belong unto them and which they did not onely anciently exercise as Doctor Vsher shews in his Reduction of Episcopacy to the form of Synodicall Government received in the ancient Church Pag. 3 4 5. but which also by the order of the Church of England as the same Author out of the Book of Ordination shews did belong unto them For he there saith By the Order of the Church of England all Presbyters are charged to administer the Doctrine and Sacraments and the Discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded and as this Realm hath received and that they might better understand what the Lord hath commanded them the Exhortation of St. Paul to the Elders of the Church of Ephesus is appointed to be read unto them at the time of their Ordination Take heed unto your selves and to all the Flock among whom the Holy-ghost hath made you Overseers to rule the Congregation of God which he hath purchased with his blood All which power the Pastors were deprived of during the prevalency of Episcopacy the Keys of the Kingdome of Heaven being taken out of their hands they having neither power to cast out of the Church the vilest of Offenders that were often kept in against their minds nor any power to restore into the Churches Communion such as had been never so unjustly excommunicated though of the best of their Flock And so that Episcopacy that formerly was submitted unto was a plain and manifest usurpation upon the Pastors Office and Authority was very oppressive and grievous unto the Church and injurious to her Communion and whereupon it will follow that there is no breach of that Union which ought to be maintained in the Church by not admitting of it again but rather the Churches peace the power that of right belongs unto the Pastors and the Priviledges of the Members are all better secured in the absence then in the presence of it 3. That however both godly Conformists as well as Nonconformists did groan under the burthensomness of it yet in licitis honest is they submitted and yielded Obedience to it whilst it continued established by the Laws of the Land And that out of respect to the peace of the Church although they did not thereby take themselves obliged to forbeare the use of any lawfull means for their deliverance from that bondage as opportunity was offered And hereupon they petitioned the Parliament of late for an abolition of it as had been formerly desired in the Reign of Queen Elizabeth and King James as when other Laws have been found to be inconvenient and mischievous it was never accounted any disturbance of the civil peace to remonstrate the grievousness of such Laws to the Parliament that they might be abolished 4. Let it also be further weighed that that Episcopacy to which you would perswade us by this Argument to return is now abolished and taken away by the Authority of Parliament as appears by the Acts and Ordinances for that purpose See them cited in our Animadversions on your next Paper Sect. 4. And therefore both the Bishops as such and that Superiority which they challenged and exercised over the Ministers in this Land are dead in Law and so there can be no guilt of Schisme lying on the Ministers in this Land for not returning to that Canonicall Obedience that is not hereupon any longer due or for not submitting themselves to that power and jurisdiction that is extinct There is the greater strength in this consideration if it be observed 1. That whatever Jurisdiction the Diocesan Bishops did exercise over Presbyters they did obtain onely by the Law of the Land and Canon of the Church 2. That the Parliament did lawfully take away that Jurisdiction from them and had therein the concurrence of a reverend and learned Assembly of Divines The first of these Propositions is clear upon this consideration that the Scripture makes a Bishop and a Presbyter all one This is clear from Titus 1. Ver. 5. compared with the seventh whence it appears that those whom the Apostle had called Elders or Presbyters Ver. 5. he calls Bishops Ver. 7. And indeed otherwise he had reasoned very inconsequently when laying down the qualifications of Elders Ver. 6. he saith Ver. 7. For a Bishop c. For a Bishop must be blameless Whereunto may be added that other known place Act. 20. 17. compared with Ver. 28. For the Apostle saith to those Elders that the Holy-ghost had made them Bishops or Overseers of the Church Besides what Office the Bishops had that the Elders had Both are charged to feed the Flock of Christ Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 12. and which is both by Doctrine and Government The Keys of the Kingdome of Heaven were committed to them Mat. 16. 19. both the Key of Doctrine and the Key of Discipline The former is not denyed and for the other it is proved from 1 Thes 5. 12. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7 17 24. where we see they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that are over them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that rule well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that rule And for power to Ordain we may see its plain from 1 Tim. 4. 14. where Timothy is charged not to neglect the Gift that was in him which was given him by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery This Text you your selves tell us in your next Paper Sect. 5. is understood by the Greek Fathers as Ignatius Chrysostome Theodoret Theophylact Oecumenius and others and some few of the Latines also Of the company of Presbyters i. e. Bishops who lay hands on the new made Bishops or Priests But from these several Texts thus urged it is very manifest that the Scripture makes a Bishop and a Presbyter both one or one and the same order of Ministry And hereupon it follows that whatever Jurisdiction the Diocesan Bishops exercised over Presbyters they had it not by Divine Right but obtained it onely by the Law of the Land and Canon of the Church And thus the first Proposition is clear We now come to make good the second And that the Parliament did lawfully take away the Jurisdiction and whole Office of Diocesan Bishops
end of the World in a succession of a lawfull ordained Ministry And in your next Paper you falling foule upon us and charging us with a rent indeed a Schisme in the highest you add which is not satisfied but with the utter overthrow of the Church from whom they rent Here you lay a great stress upon Episcopacy and such an one as none of our true Protestant Divines that defend the truth of our own and other reformed Churches against the Papists would ever have layd upon it But here two things are hinted which we shall severally examine 1. You intimate that by the taking away of Episcopacy the Church is overthrowne it cannot be continued amongst us from Age to Age to the end of the World except Episcopacy be restored 2. But yet there is a further Implication sc That there cannot be a Succession of a lawfull ordained Ministry which Succession yet you intimate to be necessary to the being of the Church if we have not Bishops againe that may Ordain 1. Unto the first of these we shall answer after we have premised a distinction touching the word Church For either the Church of God amongst us which you here speak of is taken essentially for that part of the Catholick visible Church which in regard of the place of its abode in this Land is called the Church of England as the severall parts of the Sea which yet is but one receive their Denomination from the Shoares they wash Or else you take the word Church for a Ministeriall Church or for the Church represensative as it is taken Matth. 18. 27. This premised we answer If you take the word Church in the former sense your Position is very gross no other then this that for want of Bishops the whole Church of England is at present overthrowne and that there is no way of recovery of it but by the restoring of them and so in the mean season it is no Church with whom we may safely hold Communion which layes a Foundation for separation from it and of Apostasie unto Rome where Bishops may be had We shall therefore to this say no more but onely mind you of what is well observed by Mr. Baxter out of B. Jewell in the defence of the Agreement of the Worcestershire Ministers Page 58. where he hath these words B. Jewell in his defence of the Apology Authorised to be kept in all Churches Part 2. Page 131. Neither doth the Church of England depend on them whom you so often call Apostates as if our Church were no Church without them They are no Apostates Mr. H c. Notwithstanding if there were not one neither of them nor of us left alive yet would not the whole Church of England flee to Lovaine Tertullian saith Nonne Laici sacerdotes sumus Scriptum est regnum quoque sâ—cerdotes Deo patri suo nos fecit differentiam inter ordinem plebem constituit ecclesiae authoritas honos per ordinis concessum sanctificatus a Deo Vbi ecclesiastici ordinis non est concessus offert tingit sacerdos qui est ibi solus Sed ubi tres sunt Ecclesia est licet Laici But if you take the word Church for a Ministeriall or Organized Church we oppose your Position with these following Arguments 1. That which we have already proved sc That a Bishop and a Presbyter are all one in Scripture acceptation will necessarily inferre that the being of a Ministeriall or Organized Church doth not depend on the continuance or restauration of Bishops taking them for such as are superiour to Presbyters either in regard of Order or Jurisdiction For though these be never restored yet Presbyters being continued that yet are Bishops in Scripture sense the Organized and Ministeriall Church of Christ is fufficiently secured against the danger of perishing 2. But by the Tenent you here hold forth you do very uncharitably unchurch the best reformed Churches throughout the World The Protestant Churches of France Scotland the Low countries and Geneva must all be pâ—t out of the number of free Organized and Ministeriall Churches and their Ministers must because they admit not the Bishops that you are for be accounted no lawfull Ministers Yea you here againe very undutifully unchurch your Mother the Church of England if she restore not Episcopacy and herein gratifie the Papists no little that vilifie her and other reformed Churches as no true Churches and â—ry out against their Ministers as no lawfull Ministers But blessed be God both the Church of England and other reformed Churches and their Ministers have had and still have better Advocates and more dutifull Sonnes then you herein approve your selves to be to plead their Cause 3. By this Tenent also it will follow That all the Ordinances that are dispensed in these Churches are null and void Their Baptisme is no Baptisme The Sacrament of the Lords Supper Administred amongst them is no Sacrament and the like must be said of all the Ordinances that are dispensed in our Church by such as were not ordained by Bishops and so it makes them as to outward Church-Priviledges no better then meer Heathens and hereupon it ministers occasion of endless Doubts and Scruples unto the Members of those Churches of questioning the validity of their Baptisme and whether they ought not to be rebaptized which doubts also by your Tenent are occasioned also to all those among your selves that were baptized by such Ministers as were not Ordained by Bishops Thus you see how you lay the Foundation of Anabaptisme which yet you would seem to be zealous Opposers of 4. Add hereunto that hence it will unavoidably follow That you must not hold any Communion with these Churches nor such Congregations in the Church of England where these Ordinances are dispensed by such as were not Ordained by Bishops their Ministers according to your Doctrine being not lawfull Ministers and for the Ordinance dispensed by them null and void And here is a Rent indeed a rent in the highest to use your owne expressions from which our old Episcopall Divines that were sound Protestants would never have excused you no nor Doctor Vsher with whom in some things you profess to close For however he is represented by Doctor Bernard to have held that a Bishop had Superiority in degree above a Presbyter by Apostolicall Institution and had expressed himselfe sharply enough in his Letter to Doctor Bernard Touching the Ordination made by such Presbyters as had severed themselves from Bishops yet a little after speaking of the Churches of the Low-Countries * he sayth For the testifying his Communion with these Churches which he professeth to love and honour as true Members of the Church Universall he should with like affection receive the blessed Sacrament at the hands of the Dutch Ministers if he were in Holland as he should at the hands of the French Ministers if he were in Charenton By which you may perceive however he held those Churches
Ministry are sufficiently secured in the non-admission of Episcopacy and which we have also before proved tends not to secure the Church or Ministry but to inthrall both and bring them under bondage And now as touching the next Argument you use we are sure there is no need of Episcopacy that the Word of God might be firmly fixed among us but rather we say That the danger of its removall Westward hinted to you lately by one of the reverend Pastors of the Church of Manchester would by the admitting of it be encreased considering how many godly painefull Ministers were silenced by the Prelates and driven into America of later times and so hereupon there would be danger that the Word of God that is now on the Tiptoes ready to remove if God of his infinite mercy prevent it not should presently take its flight from us and be gone being sent unto a people that would bring forth better Fruit then we have done or then this will be found to be to take in Prelacy againe and that in time of peace after we had in the dayes of our Affliction according to our solemne Covenant cast it forth Now whereas you add that you should by our accepting of your Motions have been happily freed from the trouble of any further rejoynder unto our Answer Which otherwise as you say you must do amongst other considerable reasons to take off our Government from that establishment of Authority upon the proof whereof the most considerable part as to the bulke of our Answer doth insist We shall here onely mind you of some few particulars 1. Though we shall not take advantage of words yet when you tell here of a Rejoynder to be made to our Answer from which you should have been freed if we had closed with your Proposals we do not conceive you speak properly For your first Paper was your Bill of Complaint which we answered and to one part whereof you reply in this Paper in way of tender of some tearms of agreement which because not accepted of by us you reply to our Answer more particularly in you next This did concerne you to have minded who carp at words that we used in our Answer though as we shall shew when we come to it without any cause 2. You here say That the most considerable part of our Answer as to the bulke doth insist upon the proof of the establishment of our Government by Authority and this you say againe and againe in your next Paper though without any shew of truth as when we come to examine that Paper we shall there manifest 3. You by this close intimating or rather Threatnings that if we did not come up to your Proposalls you must be put to the trouble of a Rejoynder as you speak amongst other considerable reasons to take off our Government from the establishment of Authority that we lay claime to And having told us in your first Paper That it concerned us to look to it whether we had not run our selves into a Premunire gave us sufficient reason as we believe all candid Readers will judge to put you upon the work to unvalid our civill Function and which is all that in your Advertisement to the Reader you can charge us with as that which ministred any occasion of provocation and which it seems was so great after you had recived that Answer that in your next Paper even after you had slept upon it it breaks forth into a flame But we should have judged you a great deale more happy if you had never put your selves upon the trouble of such a Rejoynder as you call it considering what unquietness and distemper of Spirit you do there discover as every Reader may easily conceive that if from our Answer to your first Paper you conceived some hopes of an amicable and friendly agreement of differences and as you profess in your Advertisement to the Reader you did you had no just cause given you to conceive from those verball exceptions against the last passage of your Reply that we gave you as you there speak nor from the Work we put you on which you there mention that we intended not any friendly treaty with you in order to such a Composure Although we must needs confess that if you conceived hopes of agreement with us upon the tearmes you here propound you were therein much mistaken they being those very things we expresly cautioned against in our Answer as we have said before having also fully shewed your further great mistake when you appehended we quoted Dr. Vsher as our owne man or an Vmpire and Composer of differences betwixt us as likewise hath been declared before Although we must still say that Dr. Vsher doth Patronize whatever we quoted him for And this may be a sufficient Answer both to the last passage in this Paper and likewise to what you have in your Advertisement to the Reader which is subjoyned to it But we have thus finished our Answer to this Paper wherein we have been purposely the larger upon some Points that they being here more fully discussed as occasion was offered when the things you have here hinted shall come againe to be mentioned in your next Paper this our Answer to them once for all may suffice The third and last Paper that was presented to us by certain Gentlemen and others within the bounds of our Association To the first Classe at Manchester within the Province of Lancaster these SECT I. Though we could not but take notice of the prolixity of your last answer in writing yet we gave you an acknowledgment of your civility so far as it related to us and hoped you would have closed with us in a happy and amicable union and composure of all differences amongst us in the Church of God here you pretending so cordially to desire it and we condescending to come so near even as it were to your own tearms But oh that there had been such a heart in you then had you spared us the pains of this Rejoynder to your long Answer made longer through that needless and tedious discourse of yours concerning the civil sanction of the Presbyterian government And though in the very Preface you say your leasure will not permit you to spend time about impertinencies its wonder to think how quickly you forget your selves for you no sooner have said it but straightway fall in hand to prove this Thesis viz. That your Church government is established by the Law of this Land and to stuff your Paper with the recitall of sundry Orders and Ordinances of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament c. which takes up many pages throughout your paper Which as it was no Question of ours but started now by you we shall not here take the pains to reply to but defer it till anon Though we crave leave to tell you you have hereby started more doubts then you can assoyle and said more then you have as
new tearmed Assembly not for the words sake Assembly but first in regard of the word Provincial although that in the judgement of Dr. Usher who in his reduction of Episcopacy unto the forme of Synodical Government received in the ancient Church doth expresly mention among his proposals as we said also in our answer the Provincial Synod would not have been accused of novelty but that which you are here offended at is that this County of Lancaster should be tearmed the Province of Lancaster and the Synods and Assemblies therein convened should be tearmed Provincial for which yet you have little reason if you had considered all this was done by the authority of Parliament who had power to bound the Province and the Synod or Assembly to be held thereih for the ordering and regulating the affairs of the Church within the bounds set as they judged to be most convenient And seeing that a Synod within the bounds of a County may meet more frequently with conveniency for the regulating the affairs of the several Classical Presbyteries within those bounds then if the bounds had been larger especially if so large as to have comprehended within them several Counties as formerly the two Provinces of York and Canâ—erbury comprehended all the Counties within the Land and which doubtless the Parliament considered when they ordered Decemb. 21. 1646. That the several Classes in Luncashire should be one Province and of which we had before given you an account in our answer to your first Paper if you had acquiesced in the authority of Parliament as sufficient for the ordering of such a matter you would not have found fault with this for its novelty all Laws that are newly made though for the ease of the suâ—jâ—cts being as liable to exception in that respect as this Your next reason why you charge our Provincial Assembly with novelty is in regard of the place at Preston but this exception was prevented in our answer unto which here you make no reply when we said if Provincial Assemblies be warrantable and have been of ancient use in the Church that having been long in disuse they of late began to be held at Preston that could not justly incurre your censure and certainly the most famous Synods and Councils that have been or that may be hereafter must be all accused in regard of novelty if this be a sufficient ground of accusation even the first four general Councils of Nice Constantinople Ephesus and Chalcedon those being all as new in regard of their places where they were assembled at the time of their first meeting there having been never such Assemblies convened in those places before as our Provincial Assembly was or is that met and still ordinarily doth at Preston But perhaps there is more strength in the last reason why you charge it to be a new termed Provincial Assembly when you say it is new in respect of the persons constituting this Assembly lay-men presiding and ruleing and having decisive voyces in as ample a manner as the highest and chiefest in holy Orders nor doth Bishop Usher as you say or what we alleadge out of him make for such an Assembly But here 1. We must minde you that we did not cite Dr. Usher for to prove the antiquity of Provincial Assemblies in regard of these members constituting them Let our answer be perused it will be found to alleadge him for to prove the antiquity of the Assemblies of the Pastors of the Churches for the ordering Church affairs and having the power of ruleing them and because we did not know whether you were not so fond on Prelacy as not to allow of these Assemblies we quoted Dr. Usher for to prove their antiquity neither did we conceive that Dr. Usher would have judged these Assemblies where the Pastors of the Churches are members to have been wholly new or the Pastors to have lost their authority in them because the ruling Elders are admitted into them as members whatever his own thoughts might be concerning them 2. But as touching them we must further minde you of what we have said before that they are not meer lay-men but duely and orderly called to an Ecclesiastical Office although they never praeside in these Assemblies as moderatours And further that we have proved from antiquity in our answer to your second Paper the being of such an Officer in the Church in the time of Origen Ambrose Augustine Optatus and which is so clear that the adversaries of this Officer cannot deny it only they would have him to have been as an extraordinary Church-guardian or admitted on prudential grounds which yet is but gratis dictum as we have said 3. We shall now only further add what is well observed by the Provincial Assembly of London that Sutlivius a Prelatical Divine and otherwise an opposer of the Office of ruling Elders de concil lib. 1. cap. 8. saith that among the Jews Seniores Tribuum the Elders of the Tribes did sit with the Priests in judging controversies of the Law of God hence he argues against Bellarmine that so it ought to be in the Christian Church also because the priveledge of Christians is no less then the priveledge of the Jewes And it is not denyed by other Prelatica Divines but by them held and proved that men of abilities which are not Ministers are to be admitted into general Councils as they have been also anciently and which is too manifest to be denyed it appearing to have been so from the ancientest historians and subscriptions of Councils and to vote in them as members of these Assemblies And therefore however the ruling Elders be be admitted into our Provincial Assemblies as members whom you account to be but lay-men and have decisive votes there the Assembly should not by you have been accused of novelty in this respect for you see such as were no Ministers have been anciently admitted into Synods and Councils to vote there as members according to the old rule Quod tangit omnes debet tractari ab omnibus The Gentlemens Paper Sect. IV. Well! bâ—t you say we go on and tell you c. But had your professions and expressions for Peace and Unity been as reall and as cordiall as ours we had proceeded no further in this way of Rejoynder but closed hands and hearts together as in our last humble address appeareth Which certainly might have found a more ready compliance and merited a far more civil and satisfactory Answer from such cordiall wishers of Peace and Unity such godly and sober such moderate spirited men as you pretend to be But you have required we should go on and accordingly we go on to tell you that other parts of your Paper are full of darkness To which you thus Answer We cannot apprehend any such darkness in our Paper as you speak of but because you question what Authority we have from the civil Magistrate and the extent of it and your mistakes of our meaning may perhaps some
of them arise from your unacquaintedness with the rule we walk by Although we were not to be blamed for any mistakes that might arise ab ignorantia juris whether simple or affected that we determine not but leave yâ—u to judge Before we come to make answer more particularly to what follons we are willing to be at some pains to give you some farther account of the power we are awarranted by the civill Authority for to exercise To what Persons within our bounds it extends it self c. Much pains you have taken and that willingly and spent much time and Paper too which hath swelled your Answer to so great a bulk to prove that which was not oppugned nor so much as quest oned by us so Impertinent to the business of our Paper Though you have said you are not willing to spend time about Impertinencies By which however we go on yet you wheel about and are come to the Pole you first started at like a Horse in a mill that travels all day and is no further at night then he was in the morning You went about to prove your Government established by civil Authority the first work you took in hand you are no further yet but going about to prove out of your way quite But since you compell us to follow you a mile we will walk with you twain till we have conducted you if possible into the good old Way again by taking of your Government from that establishment of Authority upon the proof whereof the most considerable part as to the bulk of your Answer doth insist To prove your Presbyterian Government to be established by Law and to be warranted by the civil Authority you produce severall Orders and Ordinances but one more especially you instance of the Lords and Commons assembled in Parliament bearing date the 10th August 1648. Which you say is without any limitation of time and remains unrepealed to this day nay more by the humble Advice assented unto by his Highness it receives strength To which we answer when you speak of a Government establisht by Law we hope you mean such as hath the force and strength of a Law to binde the free born People of this Nation otherwayes you say nothing If such a Law you mean then we much question whether your Ordinance of Lords and Commons though unrepealed to this day be of that force and seeing we be no Lawyers we shall not take upon us the determination of that point but refer you in that particular to the Judgement and resolution of the Sages of the Law who affirm that nothing can have the force of a Law to binde the people without the concurrent consent of the three Estates in Parliament My Lord Cooke is most full throughout his works published by the speciall appointment of that long Parliament Hear you him For the Parliament concerning making and enacting of Laws consists of the King the Lords spiritual and temporall and the Câ—mmons and it is no Act unless it be made by the King the Lords and Commons Again If an Act be made by the King and Commons this binds not for it is no Act of Parliament Ibid. Again It is no Act of Parliament but an Ordinance and therefore binds not 4th part Instit fol 23. Again Nothing can pass as a Law without the Kings râ—yal assent and authority to binde the people 3d part Instâ—â— fol. 9. See him also again in his Instit 4th part fol 232. where he cites severall Charters and Ordinances made in the behalf of the Court of Stannâ—ries and in the end saith These things were done de facto bâ—t let us â—â—rn our selves to that which hath the force of a Law And in the same 4th part cap. 73. of the Courts of forrests fol. 293. see there a prescription good against a Statute of Ed. 3. cap. 2. because it was made but in affirmance of the common Law of the Forrest and against such a Statute a man may prescribe And good also against the Ordinance of 34. E. 1. and the onely reason given is because it was but an Ordinance and no Statute An Ordinance of both Houses is no Law of the Land by their own confession meaning the Parliament saith Judge Jenkins 1 part Coll. Ordinances fol. 728. This was the onely Law stood in force and binding which was made by the concurrent consent of alâ— in the judgement of these Sages and was called the Law of the Land None else in old time was judged valid or to have the force and strength of a Law Nor at this day will any Ordinance of one or both Houses be judged valid without his Highness assent thereunto as we humbly conceive But admitting Ordinances of one or both Houses of Parliament without the Kings of old or his Highness assent of late to have aâ— great a force and strength in them and to be as valid to all intents and purposes as if their assents were given thereto Yet this we affirm of your Ordinance setling Presbyterian Government throughout the Kingdom of England and Dominion of Wales That it is made of little or no force at this day in respect of those severall subsequent Acts granting liberty to all pious and conscientious Christians throughout this Land to serve God in their own way of worship and disclpline notwithstanding any Law or Ordinance to the contrary which though they amount not to an express yet at least to an implicite Repeal of your Ordinance so far as it is contrary to this Liberty for Leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant But stand you upon an express Repeal Then be pleased to peruse an Act made Anno 1650. for Relief of Religious and peaceable people from the rigour of former Acts of Parliament in matters of Religion And to peruse a little better the humble Advice by you in your Answer alledged and you will finde it far otherwise than you say In the eleventh Section All Ministers throughout the Land and their Assemblies professing the true Protestant Christian Religion though of different judgement in Worship or Discipline are all of them equally protected in the liberty of their profession Have you liberty to exercise your Church Government amongst your selves They as much Have you protection Others as much What power have you that others have not Are these within the bounds of your Association and subject to your Government unless they will renounce their Baptism and Christianity Nay they have their way of Worship and Protection in that way granted them as well as you And as they may not revile or reproach nor disturb you in your Assemblies no more may you them in their Assemblies nor compell any by censures or penalties to submit to your Government Is there a Presbyterian Government so setled by Ordinance as to compell any contrary to this Liberty Reade the Act of 1650. abovesaid and you shall finde an express Repeal Reade also the close of this Section and you shall finde
of Antiquity for the space of three hundred years after Christ as imperfect and far from shewing the Universal practise of the Church then and to brand the most approved Authors of those times as spurious and corrupt void of all modesty and shewing thereby no great store either of judgement or honesty But suppose the Monuments and Records of Antiquity for the space of three hundred years after Christ were now as you say grown unperfect and not able to shew what was then the Churches practise yet come we to the General Councils which are the best Expositors of Scripture and of the Churches practise and we by them shall find the practise of the Church in former time That famous Council of Nice which must be and is of all wise and Learned men reverenced esteemed and imbraced next unto the Scriptures themselves shews you the practise of the Church in its form of Church Government by Patriarch Metropolitan Arch-Bishop Bishop c. as by the 6th 7th 13th 25th 26th and 27th Canons of the same Council appeareth Not that this Council did constitute and create as some falsly conceit but did onely confirm and strengthen those orders and degrees which were in the Church even from the beginning so are the words of the Council Can. 6. The very first words of that Canon whereby it is ordained that the whole power of all Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis should belong to the Patriarch of Alexandria even as it is also there decreed that the ancient Customes and Priviledges which belonged to the Bishop of Rome Antioch and the Metropolitanes of other Provinces should be preserved are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very words which Ignatius useth to express the Apostolical Traditions Anriqui mores obtineant in Aegypto Lybiâ Pentapoli c. i. e. Let the ancient customes in Aegypt Lybia and Pâ—ntapolis continue that the Patriarcks of Alexandria should have power over all these even those Customes which were deduced down to those times from St Mark the Evangelist not only Bishop of Alexandria but of the Churches of Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis also So Eusebius lib 2. cap. 15 16. and others So that these Canons here made gave no new thing did not de novo institute or establish this standing subordination in the Church viz. of all inferiour Officers in the Church to the Bishop in every Diocess of the Bishop in every Province to the Metropolitan of the Metropolitane in every Region to the Patriarch or Primate but did onely confirm it These standing powers and subjection being defined and asserted by the ancient Canons yea the most Ancient even in memorial Apostolicall Tradition and Custome avouched for it as may appear Concil Nicen. 1. cap. 4 6. Concil Antioch cap. 1 20. Concil Chalced. cap. 119. See more of this in Dr Hammond of Schism Cap. 3. sect 22. 23 24 25. cap. 8. sect 8. Thus much to shew the practice of the Church in point of Church Government for the first three hundred years even from generall Councils the best Expositors of the practice of the Church in those times And as they are our best Informers of the Churches practise so are they the best Interpreters of the mind and will of God in Scripture touching Church Government Calvin reckoning up the severall orders and degrees of Bishops Arch-Bishops Metropolitane and Patriarch and rendring the reason of such Governours ordained by the said Council of Nice though he dislike the name Hierarchie which some gave unto that Government yet saith he omitting the name if we look into the thing we shall find that these ancient Bishops did not frame a form of Church Government differing from that which Christ hath prescribed in his word Mark we pray the Churches practice in the form of Church Government was hitherto according to the prescript of Gods Word in Calvins judgment And this was 330. years after Christ Yea Beza likewise that earnest â—atron of Presbyterian discipline confesseth That those things which were ordained of the ancient Fathers concerning the seats of Bishops Metropolitanes and Patriarchs assigning their limits and attributing to them certain Authority were appointed optimo zelo out of a very good zeal and therefore such sure as was according to knowledg and the word of God otherwise it would be far from being optimus the best zeal And thus we have found a Church Government agreeable to the will of God and universall practise of primitive Churches such a one as we pray for may be established in this Nation putting both together not the word of God alone nor the Churches practice alone but both together and both in their due piaces not crying up the Church above the Scripture nor crying up the Scripture to the contempt and neglect of the Church but restoring the practice and customes of the Church into that credit is due unto them by invalidating of which all hereticall and schismaticall persons seek to overthrow the Church Nay but yours is that Government which is most consonant to the will of God revealed in Scriptures and your ruling Elders are jure divino which you cannot part with unless you should betray the truth of Christ Rom. 12. 1 Cor. 12. 1 Tim. 5. We answer these Texts are too generall to prove a ruling Presbytery out of and so you have been often told by many more learned Doctors of our English Church Yet ruling Elders must be found here for so you will have it let Gideâ—ns fleece be wet or dry That is whether there be dew enough in those Texts to water the sense or no Therefore being resolyed on it you wrest the Scriptures which St Peter complains of with Expositions and glosses newly coined to make them speak what they never meant giving such new and strange senses to places of Scripture as the Church of Christ never heard of till of late years This wresting of Scripture Dr Andrews taxeth the Papists withall saying Malus hic Cardinalium mos and we as truly Malus hic Presbyterorum mos rem facias rem si possis rectè si non quocunque modo rem c. such a sense you give of these places which none of the Fathers â—ave or heard of and being a stranger to them we can but terme it an Imagination of yours and so leave it and you to what we have in our last Paper further spoken of it Touching which no reply hath been as yet sent us from you The Animadversions of the Class upon it WE are sure we are now come to that which is the worst part in all your Paper your principles here being very corrupt even in a Doctrinall matter of high concernment and that distemper which was upon your spirit breaking out here into railing in an high degree if not to blasphemie besides your flandering of us and scoffing at us which is ordinary with you of which we shall speak anon particularly 1. But we shall begin with that Representation which you first make of what we
time when the Council of Nice assembled all at once but by steps and degrees and that it was then nothing like to what it grew up to afterward and further that however those godly Fathers that did first set it up and afterwards upheld it did so out of a good intention yet that therein they were but subservient to what afterward was effected in the Bishop of Rome to lift up Antichrist into his seat and which is not much to be wondred at whenas the Apostle tells us that in his dayes the mystery of iniquity did then already work and that good men may be instrumental though unwittingly to promote and advance a very ill and bad designe God therein leaving them to themselves and he thereby in his secret and unsearchable providence though just holy and wise bringing that about which he had before appointed in his eternal counsel And yet for all this we do averre that however as Hierome doth well observe at the first a Bishop and a Presbyter were the same and that before by the instinct of the Devil there were contentions in Religion and it was said amongst the people I am of Paul I of Apollo I of Cephas the Churches were governed by the common counsell of the Presbyters but that after every one thought that those were his which he did baptize not Christs it was decreed throughout the whole world that one of the Presbyters should be chosen and set over the rest unto whom all the care of the Church should belong and the seeds of schismes taken away Yet not only in that age but long afterward as also long before the assembling of the Council of Nice that speakes of Metropolitans and confirming their power a Bishop and Presbyter were acknowledged to be one order of Ministery as they did also joyn with the Bishops after their setting up in the Governement of the Church as is acknowledged and proved by Dr. Usher in his reduction of Episcopacy to the forme of Synodical Governement in the ancient Church and which indeed is that which is acknowledged by your selves For you confessed before that Ignatius Chrysostome Theodoret Theophilact Oecumenius and others of the Greek Fathers with some of the Latines also did take the word Presbytery 1 Tim. 4. for the company of Presbyters i. e. Bishops who lay hands on the new made Bishops or Priests as you express it making Bishops and Presbyters mutually to expound each other as hath been already observed And herein you are not alone as hath been partly shewed before and is abundantly shewed by others and particularly by our reverend Brethren of the Province of London who in their Jus divinum Ministerij Evangelici prove not only from the Scriptures that a Bishop and Presbyter are all one but do urge also sundry other testimonies for the proof thereof not only out of Hierome and Augustine but likewise do alleadg Dr. Reynolds in his Epistle to Sir Francis Knowles shewing the same thing out of Chrysostome Hierome Ambrose Augustine Theodoret Primasius Sedulius Theophilact and do further urge that Michael Medina affirmes lib. 1. de Sacris originibus that not only Hierome but also that Ambrose Augustine Sedulius Primasius Chrysostome Theodoret Oecumenius Theophilact were of the same judgement with Ae rius and held that there was no difference between a Bishop and a Presbyter by Scripture besides other testimonies which they do there urge But David Blondellus in his Apologia pro sententiâ Hieronymi doth clear this up so fully in that his large Treatise penned on purpose to shew what concurrence of Antiquity there is for this opinion of Hierome that we believe those that are unprejudiced that will but take the paines to read and weigh what he there presents will readily grant that long before the Council of Nice and long after it was acknowledged that a Bishop and Presbyter are one order of Ministery We have thus said that which we judge sufficient unto the Canons themselves that you cite out of the Council of Nice and particularly to the sixth Canon of that Council on which you lay the greatest weight and shall now proceed to examine what follows 4. For you will have the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that we used in the 6th Canon of the Council of Nice to be the very words which Ignatius useth to express the Apostolicall traditions Antiqui mores obtineant in Egypto Lybia Pentapoli c. i. e. Let the ancient customes of Egypt Lybia and Pentapoli continue that the Patriarch of Alexandria should have power over all these But concerning the Epistles that go under the name of Ignatius you might know there are different opinions of the Learned about them Salmasius conceives they were written by a pseudo-Ignatius to bring into credit that Episcopall Government that deviated from the primitive institution and that they were written at that very time when that was set up Others that conceive any of them to be genuine yet do not receive them all Mr. Perkins in his Preparatives to the demonstration of the Probleme observes that seaven Epistles of his Hierome and Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 35 36. reckon for true but now they are increased unto twelve five whereof he judges to be counterfeit and these to be 1. ad Mariam 2. ad Tarsenses 3. ad Hieron 4. ad Antiochenos 5. ad Philippenses Dr. Usher that Reverend and Learned Antiquary acknowledgeth onely six of these Epistles to be genuine and saith the other six are spurious and of those six that he acknowledgeth he saith they are depraved and corrupted Nay Mr. Perkins observes that Bellarmine himself confesseth of these Epistles that the Greek copies are corrupted And to evidence this we wish you to consider two passages onely that we shall instance in In his Epistle to the Trallians he boasteth of his knowledg for he saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. I am able to understand heavenly things the orders of Angels the differences of Archangels and of the heavenly Hoast the differences between powers and dominations the distances of thrones and powers yea as followes a little after the Kingdom of the Lord and the incomparable Divinity of the Lord God Almighty These expressions savour not of that humility that was in that faithfull servant of Christ the true Ignatius And in his Epistle ad Smyrnenses he takes upon him to correct if not to contradict Solomon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. He saith my son honour God and the King but I say honour God as the Author and Lord of all things and the Bishop as the Prince of Priests c. and after him it behoveth you to honour the King More here might be urged but these and other passages that might be instanced in do shew plainly that these Epistles are either counterfeit or corrupted And this was the reason of those expressions we used in our Answer when we said it would not be easie to assure us that some Works that
there may be a necessity why he should be noted with the censure of Excommunication that he might be ashamed 2 Thes 3. 14. be delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus 1 Cor. 5. 5. The Magistrate also may have punished him to the satisfaction of the Law and yet the Church remain unsatisfied and there be danger also of leavening others by his unreformedness except this old leaven be purged out 1 Cor. 5. 6. Civil punishments are necessary to be inflicted for the restraining from publike disorders not fit to be tolerated in a Christian state But if there be not repentance for such offences the souls of such offenders notwithstanding the Law be satisfied may be damned for their impeniteney for the preventing whereof Church censures are necessary and usefull Both Magistracy and Ministry are Ordinances of God the power of both are necessary and usefull a blessing from God may be expected on the due punishment and censures that are inflicted by both And therefore the asserting of the one doth not take away or destroy the other But if your doctrine be good if there be an appointment of civil punishments to be inflicted by the civil Magistrate and the civil Magistrate proceed to do his duty all the power of the Church is vacated neither must she inflict any censures or spirituall punishments that she is intrusted with the dispensing of though she see her members to be incorrigible impenitent and in danger to perish if her physick that is for the soul be not applied after the civil Magistrate hath gone as farre as he can because then one and the same person should be punished twice for one offence which you say is against Law but we are sure is against the rules of sound and good Divinity 3. But seeing you say that for a man to be punished twice for one offence is against Law and to make this out do urge two Statutes 1. Mar. chap. 3. 1. Eliz. cap. 2. unto this we say that however it doth not properly belong to us to expound the Laws of the Land we hope we may have leave to say what upon the perusall of those Statutes common reason doth dictate to us And therefore we answer 1. Your assertion is too generall to be made out by these Statutes That of the first of Mary speaking only of the penalties to be infficted on those that should disturb by word or deed Preachers in their Sermons or should molest a Priest preparing or celebrating Masse or other Service or abuse the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ or should break any Altar or Crucifix and providing in the close of it that the persons offending in the premises should be but once punished for one offence as there had been reason for some of those things that are there mentioned as offences why the transgressors of that Act should not have been so much as once punished The other Statute of the first of Elizabeth cap. 2. for so your quotation is in the Copy you presented unto us and which we judg to be the Statute you here mean there being nothing to this purpose to be found cap. 12. is likewise as expresly limited as the former For it entreats only of the penalties to be inflicted on those that should use any other Service then the Book of Common Prayer or should deprave the same Book or should do any thing or speak in the derogation of it or cause other Prayer to be said or sung or should not resort to the Church on the Sundays or other Holy days and then after the appointment of the punishment to be inflicted by the civil Magistrate in such cases and the other punishment to be inflicted by the Ordinary doth provide that whatsoever persons shall offend in the premises shall be but once punished for one offence providing particularly as you mention But you might have taken notice that the book of Common Prayer is taken away and so are Holy dayes by the Ordinance appointing the Directory and we could never see there was reason for that severity either of Ecclesiasticall censures or civil punishments to be inflicted upon all those that might be found punishable at any time by this Act. However the provisions mentioned in these Acts refering only to the particular cases mentioned in them your proof from them falls short to make out your assertion that is generall that it is against Law for a man to be punished twice for one offence 2. But yet we further answer that when the Parliament passed the Ordinance of 1648 whereby the offendors there mentioned are made censurable by us with the Church censures as there may be occasion according to the rules layd down in the form of Church Government there were sundry penall Statutes in force inflicting civil punishments on severall of the offendors mentioned in that Ordinance and yet there is no proviso in this Ordinance that was passed after those Statutes to the purpose you speak of and restraining the Church from inflicting Church censures in case the civil Magistrate had punished them by civil punishments but it gives the Church full liberty to proceed without the least hint of any such a limitation 3. You also who pretend to be so expert in the Laws might have taken notice that in the Statute of the 5th of Eliz. cap. 23. there is an appointment of the order of awarding and returning the Writ de Excommunicato capiendo and also what was to be done upon the appearance of the offeudor and what if he could not be found and by which Statute it is most clear that the civil Magistrate was to inflict a civil punishment upon the same offendor that had been excommunicated by the Ordinary as it is there provided that upon the Bishops receiving the submission and satisfaction of the person excommunicated and certifying the same the party was to be released from the Sheriffs custody or prison By which we think it is manifest that you who would appear to be men so well skilled in all Laws both of God and men have laid down such a generall assertion as can be made out by neither it being cleer by that Act that a civil punishment was to be inflicted on the person that by his offence had incurred the censure of Excommunication Further you might have observed that by the Statute 10 Caroli cap. 1. there is a forfeiture appointed to be levyed on every person using any unlawfull pastimes on the Lords day and yet in the close thereof there is a proviso in these words that the Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction within this Realm or any the dominions thereof by vertue of this Act or any thing therein contained shall not be abridged but that the Ecclesiasticall Court may punish the said offences as if this Act had not been made The like proviso we also find in the Statute 30 Caroli cap. 1. which yet
appoints fofeitures in case of prophanation of the Lords day by Carriers c. that travel on the Lords day or by Butchers that sell or kill victuass on that day By all which you may plainly see if you will not shut your eyes that it is not against Law that a man may come to be punished twice for one offence Nay what hath been heretofore more ordinary then the High-Commissioners imprisoning fining and excommunicating for one and the same offence But yet you will have the latter Acts and Ordinances against drunkenness swearing prophanation of the Sabbath c. enjoyning punishment by the Civil Magistrate onely though they do not speak one word that tends to the repealing of the Ordinance for Church Government to have utterly taken off all power of Excommunication But this we must not so easily grant and yet we shall not be unready as there may be occasion to complain to the civil Magistrate of any lawless persons that are justly censurable with the censure of Excommunication the conjunction of the Civil and Ecclesiasticall Sword being sharper and longer then either of them alone The Gentlemens Paper Sect. VIII And you further proceed to make answer to our severall ensuing Quaeries but how fully and satisfactorily all may judge that have perused what hath formerly been said touching the civil sanction of your Government Our first Quaerie is Why Government in singulari Your answer is Because it is the onely Government that is established in this Church by Civill Authority This Answer hath been confuted before we shall say no more here to that But we are unsatisfied what you mean by this Church whether you mean this Church at Manehester where your Classis is or you mean the Church of England If you mean this Church of Manchester of your association it is establisht not so much by Ordinance of Lords and Commons in Parliament as by later Acts grauting the free exercise of Religion in Doctrine and Worship to all Churches and Congregations in their own way to all and all alike but such as are particularly cautioned against And so you in your Presbytery in your Church at Manchester are protected because you have possessed your selves of that Church But then others in other Churches and Congregations to wit Prestwich Burie Middleton and the like may say of their way of worship it is the onely Government which is establisht in this Church But if your meaning be of the Church of England and so we conceive by the subsequent words viz. That there is no other Government but yours owned as the Church Government throughout the whole Nation You are certainly mistaken and dare not maintain it that his Highness or his Council owns Presbytery and none but that Government But leaving the Civill Sanction you come to the divine right of Presbytery and prove it to be the onely Government in singulari because it is that onely Government which Christ hath prescribed in his word and what Christ hath thus prescribed must needs be de jure one and the same in every Church And Calvins judgement you say in this particular is so manifest by his works to the whole world that it needs no proof We have told you before of the form and order of Church Government appointed by the Council of Nice by Patriarch Arch-Bishop Bishop c. How this Government which we suppose you will not say is Presbyterian is in Calvins judgement not differing from that which Christ hath prescribed in his word And in his first Section of this Chapter he tells us of Bishops not one word of Elders chosen out of the people who should rule in the Church but Bishops that did all viz. make and publish Canons a note certainly of rule and jurisdiction in the Church in which saith he they so ordered all things after the rule of Gods word that a man may see they had in a manner nothing differing from the word of God And this form of Government did represent a certain Image of divine Institution Can Calvin say more for your Presbytery nay can he say so much then how manifest is his judgement for the jus divinum of your Presbytery that it is that Government in particular which Christ hath prescribed in his word Thus have we taken off your Calvin and Beza as above your modern Doctors for Fathers you have none and now you descend to the Assembly of Divines The jus divinum by London Ministers the provincial Synod at London Rutherford Gyllaspie to prove your divine right of Presbytery modern Authors of yesterday with whom you paint your Margent in abundance and may serve your turn amongst the ignorant and vulgar sort who measure all by tale and not by weight when others that know what and who many of them are will conclude you draw very near the dregs As for such as are lawless persons and who those be whether drunkards swearers unclean persons prophaners of the Sabbath such as will not subject themselves to the present Government c. all together or a part conjunctim seu divisim whether you will they are onely punishable by the Civil Magistrate you cannot exclude them the Church by any of your censures as we have said before The Animadversions of the Class upon it 1. WE did indeed proceed to make answer to your several Queries and desire the Reader to peruse the Queries you propounded to us in your first Paper and the answer we gave unto them and then to judge how satisfactorily we did it after he had fully weighed our answer and what you have said to take off the establishing of our Government by the civil Sanction But whereas your first Query was why Government in singulari and our answer given thereunto was because it is the only Government that is established in this Church by civil Authority you say this answer hath been confuted before but how strongly we shall leave it to the Reader for to judge But it seems this answer hath raised another scruple in your mindes for you are unsatisfied what we mean by this Church although in our answer we had sufficiently explained it it being that Church wherein the Prelatical Government formerly had been set up and wherein that being put down the Presbyterian was set up in its stead as the only Government that was owned as the Church Government for the whole Nation as we had told you and which words did sufficiently declare that by this Church we meant the Church of England This you confess is that which you conceive to be our meaning yet you quarrell at the word that so upon supposal that the Church of Manchester of our Association and where our Classis meets might thereby be understood you might take the liberty to tell us that our Church Government is not so much established by the Ordinance of the Lords and Commons in Parliament as by later Acts granting as you say the free exercise of Religion in doctrine and worship to
this be either sincere or ingenuous dealing we leave it to the Reader to judge 3. But as touching Calvin's being in his judgement for the Presbyterian Government as that which Christ hath in particular prescribed in his Word though here again you would make him a patronizer of the Government by Patriareh Archbishop Bishop c. in our answer we said was manifest from his works to the whole Christian world And is not this clear to any that will but consult what he hath written touching this matter Consult his Expositions and Commentaries Rom. 12. 7 8. 1 Cor. 12. 28. 1 Tim. 5. 17. and you will find him there to be downright for the Jus divinum of the ruling Elders Office Consult his Institutions you will there find Lib. 4. Chap. 3. Sect. 8. expresly that he takes Bishops Presbyters and Pastors for one and the same and that according to the use of Scripture as he there speakes and argues for that purpose Tit. 1. 5. Phil. 1. 1. Act. 20. 17. and having reckoned up the preaching Officers he then comes in the very same Section and mentions the ruling Elders shewing that they are mentioned by Paul Rom. 12. 7 8. 1 Cor. 12. 28. We will but cite only one passage that he here hath concerning his quoting these Texts Guhernatores fuisse existimo seniores de plebe electos qui censurae morum exercendae disciplinae unà cum Episcopis praeessent Neque enim secus interpretari queas quod dicit qui praeejt id faciat in solicitudine Habuit igitur ab initio unaquaeque Ecclesia suum Senatum conscriptum ex viris piis gravibus sanctis penes quem er at illa de quâ posteà loquemur jurisdictio in corrigendis vitiis Porro eâ—usmodi ordinem non unius saeculi fuisse experientia ipsa declarat Est igitur hoc gubernationis munus saecuâ—is omnibus necessarium Whence it is very clear that Calvin's judgement is so full for the Office of the ruling Elders that otherwise he saith we shall not be able to interpret that of the Apostle He that ruleth let him do it with diligence And hence he concludes that every Church had from the beginning its Senate or Consistory that consisted of men that were godly grave and holy to whom did belong the jurisdiction in correcting of vices of which after he saith he will speak Further he saith that experience it self declares that this was not an order of one age and thence inferres that therefore the ruling Elders Office whom he undestands by the Office of Government is necessary for all ages Is it possible for any man to declare himself more fully and plainly for the Presbyterian Government then Calvin here doth We forbear to cite any other parts of his works we doubt not but the Reader by this will be sufficiently satisfied and will presently hereupon conclude that you but gather out of Calvin what you think makes for your purpose and when we cite him for that which he is so full for matter not much how you misrepresent him to the world that so you might make him to appear otherwise But we wish you to consider that it is not safe for any to make lies their refuge But you have notwithstanding all this the boldness to alleadge Calvin as a Patronizer of Episcopal Government as you did before And because you come over again with the same thing we shall be forced for his vindication to make some repetition of what we have in part already said That in Calvin which you here referre us to is the place in his Institutions which was before quoted sc Lib. 4. Chap. 4. Sect. 1. But in the Chapter immediately going before we have even now shewed that he declares himself fully for the Presbyterian Government but this you wholly conceal in which you deal not honestly with him Nay in the very first words of this Section which you cite he tells you he had been hitherto speaking of that order of governing the Church as it is delivered to us out of the pure word of God and concerning the Ministeryes as they were instituted of Christ And then he addes now that all these things might appear more clearly and familiarly it will be profitable in those things to take a view of the forme of the ancient Church which as he there saith will represent unto us a certain image of divine institution which are part of the words that you cite But hence it is clear that seeing it is Calvin's scope in this Chapter to compare the forme of Government in the ancient Church with that forme of Government that he had held forth in the Chapter going before from the Scriptures he judged whatever construction you put upon him to the contrary that that very Government in the substance of it which he had before proved was held forth in the Scriptures and which as we have already shewed from what we have cited out of him out of the third Chapter goin gbefore was the Presbyterian was to be found in the ancient Church in the purer times of it But in the next place he comes to prevent an Objection in these words Tametsi enim multos Canones ediderunt illorum temporum Episcopi quibusplus viderentur exprimere quam sacris literis expressum esset eâ tamen cautione totam suam Oeconomiam composuerunt ad unicom illom verbi Dei normami ut facile videas nihil fere hâc parte habuisse à verbo Dei alienum Hence it is yet further plain that however he confess that the Bishops of those times did seem to express in many of their Canons something more then was expressed in Scripture yet that he saith they did compose their whole Oeconomy unto the only rule of Gods word that one might easily see they had in this particular nothing almost differing from the word he hereby declares his judgement yet further that for the substance the Government of these times was the same with the Government he had held forth from the Scriptures in the former Chapter But hence it is also clear that as we observed before he did not approve of every thing in those Canons as also he presently after confesseth there was something deficient and wanting in them For however he excuse them in regard they endeavoured to keep the institution of God with a sincere endeavour yet he acknowledges that in something they erred although he saith not much as is clear from his own words which are as followes Verumetiam si quid posset in ipsorum institutis desiderari quia tamen sincero studio conati sunt Dei institutionem conservare ab ea non multum aberraverunt plurimum conducet hic breviter colligere qualem observationem habuerint And then he shewes what the Ministers of the ancient Church were Thus we have given a full and particular account of what Calvin hath in this Section and that in the very order which he himself observes
such lawless persons whether drunkards swearers c. as will not subject themselves to the present Government of the Church they are onely punishable by the civil Magistrate and that we cannot exclude them the Church by any of our censures this is as easily by us denied as it is by you asserted and we leave it to be judged of by the Reader upon his perusall of what hath been said by both whether you or we have the better reason for what is herein maintained by us But we must again mind you that notwithstanding in our answer we had here told you that however we did not judg all those to be lawless persons that do out of conscience not come up to the observation of all those rules which are or shall be established by Authority for regulating the outward worship of God and Government of his Church yet both you and we might well remember that such as should have refused to have subjected themselves to the late Prelaticall Government would have been accounted in those times lawless persons yet to this also you do here say nothing although it was one of your queries in your first Paper whether all that subjected not themselves to our present Government must be taken for lawless persons and which was a matter more considerable to have replied to then to have put us off as you do with that which is not at all here to the purpose your querie to which we answered not being about our power to censure the persons that we counted lawless but who those lawless persons were The Gentlemens Paper Sect. IX To our next Quaere viz. How farre you extend this Saintship this Church and Assembly of Saints You answer As farre as the Apostle did when writing to the Church of Corinth and Galatia he calls them Saints and Churches notwithstanding the gross errours of many members in them and therefore though there may be sundry of the like stamp in your Assemblies you do not un-church them or make your Assemblies not Assemblies of Saints because of the corruption of such Members c. But by your leave you answer not our question which was not Whether all your Assemblies were called assemblies of Saints for no question you will not un-church your selves or un-saint your Assemblies notwithstanding the corruptions in them But whether none else but you were accounted Saints none Bretheren and Sisters in Christ but such as stand for your pretended discipline If so then the Donatists crime may be imputed to you and we say with St. Augustin O Impudentem Vocem Nay but this cannot be laid in your dish whose principles and practises are so manifestly against the practises and opinions of the Donatists of old it may more fitly be charged upon such as have rent themselves from your Churches But who are they that have rent from your Church we hear but of few that ever admitted themselves members or prosessed themselves of your association that ever rent from it Those that are out say they were never of you never had sworn obedience to or subscribed any Articles of yours as you or many of you had sworn Canonicall obedience to the Government by Bishops and subscribed the 39 Articles of the Church of England Here is a rent indeed a Schism in the highest which is not satisfied but with the utter overthrow of that Church from whom they rent and rasing out those Articles of Religion they had formerly confirmed by their own subscription saying Illa non est c. O Impudentem Vocem this saying doth not concern you But still we are unsatisfied in the word Publique what you mean thereby to which you Answer Such as you by your profession and practise do own for publique such as you do constantly frequent and stir up others to frequent also where are also the publique Ordinances of the word Sacraments and Prayer dispensed But here again you come not home to our Question Whether none are publique Assemblies nay publique Assemblies of Saints but such as you constantly frequent or whose discipline you own however publique yours are And then your Order is Notice shall be taken of all Persons that forsake the publique Assemblies Notice of all Persons in order to censure so is your meaning and purpose as a little before you have said we may gather from your Paper to censure all Persons that maintain private meetings in opposition to publique whether out of conscience or out of a principle of carelesness sloth worldliness c. All Persons that crie down your Churches Ministry c. is your purpose and meaning by that order And you say further Neither do we transgress any Laws of the Land which have made no Proviso to exempt any man that we meddle with c. Here sure you are mistaken for you can no more proceed to censure such as forsake the publique Assemblies by virtue of any Ordinance of Parliament or rule laid down in your form of Church Government then you or any other Minister or Magistrate civill or Ecclesiastical can punish them by an Act of 1. Eliza. intituled An Act for Vniformity of Prayer and Administration of Sacraments or by an Act of 35. Eliza. Intituled An Act for punishing of Persons obstinately refusing to come to Church c. Or an Act of 23. Eliza. against such as refuse to come to Church All which with your Ordinance are repealed by an Act made Septemb. 27. 1650. Intituled An Act for relief of Religious and peaceable pcople from the rigor of former Acts of Parliament in matters of Religion By which these are not only repealed but it is enacted further That all and every the branches clauses Articles and Proviso's Expressed and contained in any other Act or Ordinance of Parliament whereby or wherein any penalty or punishment is imposed or mentioned to be imposed on any Person for not repayring to their respective Parish Churches c. shall be and are by the Authority aforesaid wholly repealed and made void None by this Act shall be censured or punished by virtue of any former Act or Ordinance for refusing to come to their Parish Church c. though they obstinately refuse And if by no former then not by that you pretend to Now to the end no prophane and licentious Person may take occasion by the repealing of the said Laws intended onely for relief of pious and peaceable minded people from the rigor of them o neglect the performance of Religious duties It is further enacted by the Authority aforesaid That all and every Person and Persons within this Commonwealth and the territories thereof shall having no reasonable excuse for their absence upon every Lords day dayes of publique thanksgiving and humiliation diligently resort to some publique place where the service and worship of God is Exercised or shall be present at some other place in the practise of some Religious duty either of Prayer Preaching reading or Expounding the Scriptures or conferring upon the same And
be it further declared by the Authority aforesaid That every Person and Persons that shall not diligently perform the duties aforesaid according to the true meaning thereof not having reasonable excuse to the cootrary shall be deemed and taken to be offenders against this Law and shall be proceeded against accordingly Can you say now that you have power to censure such as forsake the publique Assemblies by any Ordinance of Parliament or rules as you call them of your Church Government when not only the pious and peaceable minded people but the obstinate also are exempted from the rigor of former Laws and onely taken to be offenders against this Law and no other and shall be proceeded against accordingly Dare you yet proceed to censure notwithstanding this Act If you do you are very bold and may run into a Praemunire Though you say you are not to be blamed for any mistakes that may arise ab ignorantia juris whether simple or effected A strange saying we have heard it said Ignorantia facti excusat but Ignorantia juris non excusat no not a simple ignorance much less an affected one The Animadversions of the Class upon it 1. IF you had weighed what we had answered you could not with any colour have said that we answered not your question you might have observed that we spake of our Assemblies as they were parts of the Church of England and of the same constitution with her and whom though those of the separation do un-church in regard of the mixture or the scandalous persons in them denying our Church in that respect to be true or our assemblies to be the assemblies of Saints yet we justified in our Answer from the examples of the Church of Corinth and the Churches of Galatia to whom the Apostle writes as to Saints and calls Churches notwithstanding such corruptions in them though we did not deny but the scandalous in our Church and assemblies were the spots thereof And seeing we acknowledged such assemblies were true Churches notwithstanding those scandalous persons that were found in them you had no reason to imagin that none else besides our selves were by us accounted Saints none brethren and sisters in Christ but such as stand for our discipline which you cannot mention but you must brand in calling it pretended you might from our answer have gathered that all other assemblies in our Land where the word of God and Sacraments are dispensed were taken into the number of those assemblies we spake of they being parts also of the Church of England as well as our own however they may some of them differ from us in point of discipline We told you in our Answer particularly that in the Church of Corinth there were some that denied the resurrection others made rents and schismes and sundry grosly scandalous and yet it was a true Church And therefore how should we be conceived to have denied such assemblies in our Land that are parts of the Church of England and of the same constitution with her for the substance not to be the assemblies of the Saints if they stand not for our Discipline Yet you would make the world to beleeve we meant no further in that Answer we gave you then not to un-un-Church or un-Saint our selves or assemblies because of the corruptions of them which yet we must tell you might have been the fewer if you and others who are members of these assemblies had shewed your selves more pliable to good order and discipline and to have been furtherers and not hinderers of their reformation 2. We spake in our Answer of some that had of late rent themselves from our Churches because of the scandalousness of the corrupt members and said that seeing our principles and practises are manifestly known to be utterly against them as against the opinions and practises of the Douatists of old you had no reason to apply that of Augustine unto us when he cried out against them ô impudentem vocem But now you will not have any to have rent themselves from our Church excepting such who having admitted themselves members or professed themselves of our Association have rent themselves from us and who you say are but a few so farre as you have heard But here you do not approve your selves good disputants against those of the separation who being by their birth members of the Church of England whereof our assemblies are but parts and of the same constitution with her as we said before and have rent themselves from it or from our Assemblies that are parts of it are justly chargeable with schisme they having hereby rent themselves from a true Church wherof they were members and whose membership is argued from their being born in gremio Ecclesiae not from their admitting themselves members of it afterward or their professing of themselves to be thereof members We had in our Answer to your first Paper hinted to you this ground of their membership when in Answer to what you had to the like purpose there suggested as you do here we told you that the severall Congregations within this Land that make a profession of the true Christian and Apostolike faith are true Churches of Jesus Christ that the severall members of these Congregations are by their birth members as those that were born in the Jewish Church are said to be by the Apostle Jews by nature Gal. 2. that this their membership was sealed to them in their baptisme that did solemnly admit them as into the universall Church so into the particular wherein they were born But as in this Paper where you should have replied to these propositions if you approved not of them you answered nothing to them though in your first Paper you would have exempted your selves from being subject to our Government because you had not admitted your selves members of some one or other of our Congregations or were any associates of ours as you there expressed your selves so here you come over again with the same unsound principle and yet say nothing to make it out intimating that none are to be accounted to have rent themselves from us but such as have admitted themselves members or professed themselves of our association whereas if being members by their birth of the Church of England they after rend themselves from any of our assemblies or others that are parts and members of it and of the same constitution with it they are guilty of schisme and which you must say or whatever you cry out against it you do not upon any sure principle oppose it 3. But this blot of schisme you would fasten upon us however though it be neither upon your own principles here laid down or any other whereby you can prove us guilty And to make this out you say that we or many of us had sworn Canonical obedience to the Government by Bishops and subscribed the 39 Articles of the Church of England and hereupon because we are not now for
Presbytery was set up what they would amount to had we lived the age of Episcopacy 1â—00 yeares and upwards though the raign of Episcopacy is as we have shewed of a farre younger date and especially Episcopacy in the height of it hereby intimating that they would have farre exceeded in number all the Canons that ever were made during the whole space of time wherein Episcopacy hath been on foot For answer unto this we shall here only mind you of what you who are well acquainted with the Book of Common Prayer may find therein after the Preface of it entreating of Ceremonies why some be abolished and some retained where you have these words Some speaking of Ceremonies are put away because the great excess and multitude of them hath so encreased in these latter dayes that the burden of them was intollerable whereof St. Augustine in his time complained that they were grown to such a number that the state of Christian people was in worse case concerning that matter then were the Jewes And he counselled that such yoke and burden should be taken away as time would serve quietly to do it But what would St. Augustine have said if he had seen the Ceremonies of late dayes used amongst us whereunto the multitude used in his time was not to be compared This our excessive multitude of Ceremonies was so great and many of them so dark that they did more confound and darken then declare and set forth Christs benefits to us And yet all this that is here spoken of your selves will say must needs have been during the standing of Episcopacy When you can bring forth such a testimony as this complaining touching the number and burdensomeness of Canons and Ceremonies whilest Presbytery hath been on foot any where by either the friends or enemies to it if they will but speak the truth there may be then some reason to give credit to what you would here suggest but on this we shall give you leave to breath And in the mean season we cannot but take notice that such is the charity that you have towards us that you compare us with the Papists for the burdensomenesse of Rites and Ceremonies imposed by us on the Church though your first Paper wherein you cried out Quare oneramini Ritibus referred only to those few orders mentioned in that of ours that was published in our Congregations some whereof your selves acknowledge there to be the orders of Christ and censure us as Dr. Andrews doth Bellarmine in behalf of our English Church Nobis non tam articulosa fides c. Though if Dr. Andrews had been now alive he would have been ashamed of those that should have made use of his words with such an application of them as you do here make The Gentlemens Paper Sect. XI And now we are come to our last charge as you call it which as it is high so you judg it hath little reason in it for the bearing it up But how take you it off Why first you observe That we omit to mention the first part of this Order and unto which that which follows in the two next Orders doth refer We grant it doth but we say not that onely but to the latter branch of that Order also touching the Catechized Persons and therefore we say if they refuse to present themselves before the Eldership by this your Order the Minister must exhort and admonish them But that is wholly of our adding you say and say it again Is wholly our own and none of yours Why will you thus boldly averr so manifest an untruth Is not the Order express That the Minister when he Catechiseth the severall families shall exhort such persons in them as he finds to be of competent knowledge and are blameless of life that they present themselves to the Eldership c And do not your selves confesse that you said the Minister was to exhort and that was all But we adde and say He shall exhort and admonish How can these words then be wholly our own and none of yours Because we adde the word Admonish therefore must the rest be none of yours but wholly ours But oh the learned Criticks of our age To exhort and to admonish are two different things which we confound together taking them for one and the same which is in us a radicall and grand mistake What every admonition a kind of Church censure or in order as you call it thereto no exhortation so We confess our ignorance of such a distinction not having as yet learned it either from Scripture Fathers Councils School-men or any known approved Author find it us in Scripture you that are for the word of God alone But in the the mean time we must tell you if our Translators erre not they are promiscuously used in Scripture Read Acts 20. 32. I ceased not to admonish every one of you with tears Is this more then to exhort Was it in order to Church censure Again Rom. 15. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. able to admonish one another say some Translations able to exhort one another say others is this a radical and grand mistake in them Again Col. 3. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. admonishing your own selves Is this in order to Church-censure Is it more then exhorting Again Titus 3. 1. Admone illos saith Hierom Admone illos saith Calvin upon the place Our English Bibles some render it Admonish others Warne them to be subject c. Is this in order to Church censure is it more then an Exhortation Again Titus 2. 14. These things speak and exhort and rebuke with all authority Is to exhort Cum omni imperio with all Rule and Authority less then to admonish Nay more Is private admonition a part of or in order to Church censure according to Christ's rule Mat. 18. or St Pauls Titus 2. 10. Post unam alteram admonitionem Is that private admonition we say mentioned in the first part of your 4th Order against onely the scandalous and forsakers of publique Assemblies and not the exhortation of the Minister to such as are of competent knowledge and blameless of life that they present themselves before the Eldership in order to Church censure Apage Calvin is clear against you upon that text of Titus 3. 10. saying Admonitionem Intelligit nempe Paulus non quamlibet vel privati Hominis sed quae fit à Ministro public â Ecclesiae authoritate So not every private admonition is in order to excommunication in Calvins judgement then what more then an exhortation thus have not Scripture nor Calvin noted this difference 'twixt an exhortation and admonition nor can you we believe produce Fathers or Schoolmen those Criticks speaking for you nor hath Mr. Leigh in his Critica Sacra noted such a difference nor any we have read of and yet it is in us a radical and grand mistake Yes and the Relative They is as grand a mistake and errour in
in grace and in the knowledg of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to keep their hearts with all diligence and to infinite more things of the like nature and which are duties they should apply themselves unto when yet there is no room for an admonition in order to any Church censure in case it be not obeyed Nay when men may perceive there is not that care that should be in persons in regard of some of their words and carriages there may be place for an exhortation and yet for no admonition in order to any Church censure in case the exhortation be not hearkned unto if there be not any further scandalous outbreakings of corruption that may merit it Church censures are not to passe upon men for every fault nor against such as be guilty of such sins of infirmity as are commonly found in the children of God as in that case by the rule of our Government it is provided against And yet an exhortation to righteousness and watch fullness in such cases is not useless And so it may be well appointed by us that the Minister should exhort such as are found by him to be persons of knowledg and are in conversation blameless to present themselves to the Eldership that so they might be regularly and orderly admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper an Ordâ—nance that is not to be sleighted as it is by many but upon too sleight grounds as they will be found to be when they are to be tried in the day of account and yet no proceedings by Church censures against such persons in case an exhortation prevail not Thus far we have recited what we answered but now what is it that is replied to all this not one word but only a bitter scoff as if that were sufficient to answer every argument But we beleeve all sober persons will see you have not therein very learnedly answered us however scornfull men whose censures we matter not may therein applaud you But yet to clear up the matter further however we judg all ingenuous persons will be fully satisfied with the bare recitall of the Answer that had been given because we see you have put our words upon the rack and stretcht them upon the tenters till they have quite lost their sense in which we used them and that you are resolved to deal as strictly with us as you can where you apprehend you have any advantage We must here open this matter a little more fully And first We shall not deny that the word admonish is sometimes taken so largely as that it is the same with the word exhort and so some of the Texts you urge may prove c. Acts 20. 31. Rom. 15. 14. Col. 3. 16. in which Texts the greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that doth properly signifie to admonish is used And yet we shall not contend but the sense of it there may be the same with the word that doth properly signifie to exhort as also when the Apostle in another of the Texts cited by you viz. Titus 3. 1. saith using another word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 put them in mind though it should be rendred admone illos that word may imply an exhortation And again we shall as readily grant that the word exhort is sometimes taken so largely as that it may comprehend under the latitude of it that which is usually understood by the word admonish strictly taken as in Rom. 12. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that exhorteth on exhortation In which words the whole office of the Pastor is held forth who was not only to exhort but to admonish reprove and comfort also as there might be occasion But yet though these words are sometimes used thus promiscuously they are also distinguished To admonish taken strictly and especially in an Ecclasiasticall sense is to reprehend in regard of some fault and so it is taken 1 Thes 5. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e warne or admonish them that are unruly and is there distinguished from the word admonish taken in a more large sense as appears from ver 13. immediately going before Know them that are over you in the Lord and admonish you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and likewise from the word exhort taken strictly as appears from the same ver 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. we exhort you brethren and yet doubtless the Apostle did not by that exhortation admonish those he writes unto to warne or admonish the unruly in that sense as he would have those unruly ones to be admonished But to make the matter more plain we may here distinguish concerning admonition There is a meer charitative admonition and an admonition in order unto further censure if not hearkned unto This latter as we have told you is not to be given for such infirmities as are commonly found in the children of God no nor yet for smaller faults or injuries which Christian prudence love and peaceableness require an overlooking and passing by and of which Mat. 18. 15. is not to be understood but the offence there grounding the admonition is a greater evil endangering the soul of the doer scandalizing the brother seeing it and lying as a stumbling stone in his Christian course and such a sin that for the nature of it is fit in case of insuccessefullness of admonition to be brought before the Church as herein our reverend brethren the associated Ministers of the County of Essex do very well deliver themselves in their late Agreement pag. 14. n. 5. This admonition that is in order to Church censure is either of private members and which may be also called brotherly and charitative or else it is of the Officers of the Church and which is either given by any one or more of the Officers severally which yet in them is authoritative or else by them all joyntly and which is the admonition of the Church spoken of Mat. 18. ver 17. which is another of the Texts you here mention although it is most orderly that this admonition be given by the Minister or one of them where there be two or more in the name of the rest of the Church-Officers that give the offender this admonition But besides this admonition that is in order to Church censure in case it prevail not there is also a meer charitative admonition that may be for lesser faults that yet are not to be censured with Church censures in case there be not reformation Although there are to be endeavours to redress such offences and which kind of meer charitative admonitions may be comprehended under the latitude of that rule laid down Gal. 6. 1. You your selves do not here deny but there may be a private admonition that is not in order to Church censure when upon your quoting Calvins words on Titus 3. 10. you say seeming to approve of what you take to be his meaning though you misinterpret him as we shall shew anon not every private admonition is in
order to excommunication in Calvins judgement And this was necessarily implied in the words we used in our Answer when we opposed an admonition in order to further censure unto that which is but an exhortation only intimating plainly enough thereby that there was besides an admonition in order to further censure a meer charitative admonition which was not to be followed with any Church censure in case it prevailed not This is that likewise which our forementioned Reverend Brethren of Essex in their Agreement do also speak of having given their sense upon Mat. 18. 15. they further say in their Agreement pag. 15. n. 6. Besides this Ecclesiasticall admonition we yeeld there may be other charitative admonitions which must not preceed to Ecclesiasticall censure But from all that hath been thus far spoken touching admonition it s very clear that admonition taken strictly and properly is a reprehension in regard of some evill or fault done Though we do not deny but there may be an admonition by way of caution warning to take heed of some sin that one may be in danger to commit We shall now proceed to shew what exhortation is taken in a strict acceptation To exhort strictly is to excite or perswade and stir up unto that which is good and is distinguished from admonition taken properly as is manifest from the Text before quoted 1 Thes 5. 14. Now we exhort you brethren 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 warne them that are unruly c. The Thessalonians are here exhorted only or stird up to perform their duty towards the unruly c. and are not at all blamed by the Apostle but the unruly that were to be warned or admonished were to be reproved and blamed by the Thessalonians for their unruliness And there is place frequently for an exhortation when there is not to be any reprehension or admonition given in regard of any thing amiss But to make this matter yet more plain we may here distinguish of exhortation as before of admonition For exhortation also is either charitative or of private Christians and of which Heb. 3. 13. Exhort one another daily while it is called to day and Heb. 10. 25. Not forsaking the assembling of your selves together as the manner of some is but exhorting one another c. or authoritative and of the Minister and which may be either publick or private and of which there is often speech in the new Testament As 1 Tim. 2. 1. I exhort therefore that first of all supplications and prayers c. be made for all men 2 Cor. 9. 5. Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren 1 Tim. 6. 21. These things teach and exhort So in one of the Texts alleadged by you Titus 2. 15. These things speak and exhort and rebuke with all authority Where exhortation may well be distinguished from rebuke though both be authoritative and are to be joyned with Doctrine such applications of Doctrine being very usefull and necessary So 1 Pet. 5. 1. The Elders which are among you I exhort who am also an Elder By these Texts it is clear that as an exhortation properly is an excitation or perswasion unto something that is good so it is distinguished from admonition taken strictly and which is a reprehension for something amiss and that in many cases it may be usefull when there is not the least intimation of any neglect or sin committed for which the parties so exhorted are reproved Unto which we may further adde Acts 27. 22. where Paul saish to those in the ship with him And now I exhort you to be of good chear This exhortation was not doubtless in order to any Church censure and therefore must needs be distinguished from such an admonition So when it is said of Barnabas that when he had seen the grace of God he was glad and exhorted them all that with purpose of heart they would cleave to the Lord Acts 11. 23. This cannot be with any colour understood of any admonition in order to Church censure The best of men that walk never so blamelesly may be exhorted when yet there is no reason why they should be admonished in order to Church censure except men must be admonished and censured for such common infirmities from which no men on earth are wholly free But by this that we have said it is sufficiently evidenced that in Scripture language an exhortation taken strictly and properly is notwithstanding your scoff a different thing from an admonition in order to further censure if it prevail not And we think however you may account of us you had shewed your selves to have been more learned if you had not so causelesly quarrelled with that which is so manifest to any that are versed either in Scripture or any other approved Authors But we shall not examin what you oppose to what we had herein asserted 1. And first you begin with us sharply and say What every admonition a kind of Church censure or in order as we call it thereuntâ— not exhortation so You confess your ignorance of such a distinction not having as yet learned â—t either from Scripture Fathers c. But here you charge us with what we never said c. That every admonition is a kind of Church censure or in order to it and no exhortation so Our distinction intimated that besides the admonition that was in order to Church Censure there might be a charitative admonition as there may be a charitative exhortation yea an authoritative by the Minister when yet there is no place for censure in case the exhortation be successeless This we have shewed you from Scripture though you twit us again with being for the word of God alone for which we are not ashamed to profess our selves to be And thus you have very learnedly in the first place opposed us by imputing to us what we never said 2. But it may be your next is of greater strength and therefore we shall hearken to what you have to tell us sc That the words admonish and exhort are promiscuously used And who ever denied this Here therefore you have put your selves upon the pains to prove what we never gainsayed nay you prove by could not be the catechized persons mentioned immediately before who were to be exhorted only But these only in the beginning of the fourth Order that were to be privately admonished according to the Order prescribed Mat. 18. once or twice to see if they would reforme But this reason because you could not answer you do warily passe it over and never meddle with it 2. But notwithstanding this reason rendred you hope to bfnde us to your absurd and uncharitable construction you had put upon us But when we examine with what Arguments you do it you again discover therein your wonted deficiency And therefore 1. In your reply as it was presented unto us for want of reason wherewith to oppose us the first thing that we meet with in answer to our assertion and
thereason of it was a scornfull laughter ha ha he But this answer was so light that when you Printed your Papers it seems you were ashamed of it and therefore thought good to admit it 2. In the next place you write our Orders and having mentioned the former part of the fourth that speakes of the admonition that was to be given to the forsakers of publick Assemblies and the scandalous you express that which indeed was our sense there and say thus farre is in order to Church censures which we grant was our meaning Then you come to mention the other part touching the Ministers exhorting of the Catechized persons and say of this as if we had therein asserted some absurd thing The Ministers Exhortation is not so much as private Admonition But we are not ashamed of this Assertion it being that we still own And here it had become you to have opposed it with some Arguments but this it may be you thought you had done sufficiently before when you had told us and took the pains to prove that which we never denied viz. That to admonish and exhort are presumptuously used But we have proved unto you that these two taken properly are distinguished Admonition properly being a reprehension in regard of some fault whereas an exhortation is a more gentle way of proceeding and used in the exciting or perswading unto duty and for which there may be place as we have told you in a thousand Cases where there is not to any admonition in order unto censure in case of unsuccessfullness and in which sense admonition is taken here And now we go on to what follows Though here we observe that you having recited the fourth Order at large when you should come to recite the fifth do it not only in part and therefore that the matter here may be the more clearly understood that though your imperfect recitall of it may be darkned to an undiscerning Reader we shall mention it fully The Order was thus That if they will neither hearken to private adminition nor the admonition of the Eldership their names shall be published openly in the severall Congregations and they warned before all to reforme The Question now is as you here say to whom this Relative they refers It is indeed now a question because you have made it one though it was at first cleare enough to any ordinary understanding where there was not a spirit of opposition and a desire to cavill but if there had been any doubt yet in our Answer we cleared it by declaring our sense and giving our reasons why our words were to be so construed But notwithstanding we had so done because you are not willing to be satisfied you will have it to be a question still And seeing with you it must be so let us see what you can make of it 1. You would seem to returne what our Answer to this question was but you deface it and when you have done giving your censure of it But here we desire the Reader to observe 1. That you would by this answer which you say we give make the persons diverse that are spoken of in the latter part of the fourth Order viz. Such as being found competent in knowledge and blameless in life were to be exhorted by the Minister to present themselves to the Eldership in Order to their admission to the Lords Supper because of the double qualification there mentioned as requisite to make them capable of the Ordinance which is here your first errour 2. Having distinguished the persons that we made one and expressed that disjunctively not to the last they as you are pleased to express it nor last but one not to the blameless in life or competent in knowledge which we expressed it copulatively such as are of a competent knowledge and blameless in life You in the next place tell of Persons mentioned in two Orders long before to whom as you would have us to say the Relative they referres and not to the nearest or nearest but one Whereas the Persons to whom we say this Relative they in this fifth Order referres are those mentioned in the former part of the fourth Order immediately before viz. Those who were to be privately admonished according to Christs order Mat. 18. And who were either the scandalous or forsakers of publick Assemblies and which though they had been mentioned in the second and third Orders yet were the same persons that were still spoken of in the beginning of the fourth Order and to which the Relative they by us there used did referre Here then is another error And yet we denied and do still that the Relative they in this fifth Order did referre to the nearest Persons mentioned in the fourth Order which yet you will stil have in regard of their two-fold qualification to be diverse Persons which errour we noted before viz. the Catechized Persons but to the Persons mentioned in the beginning of the fourth Order only 3. When you tell of this Relative they mentioned in that fifth Order referring not to the last they but to two other they's these expressions being your own and none of ours you do not herein approve your selves to be very good Grammarians the Relative not referring at any time to another Relative but to an Antecedent if men will speake properly however the Antecedent to which it refers may be spoken of and implyed in a Relative going before and as in this place it is Here then is your third errour It is a wonder to thinke that wittie men and such as had triumphed over us as poore illiterate Persons but a little before should in so few words have erred so much And yet we cannot judge that the Reader will imagine you have in any of your Papers discovered any such depth in other Learning As that if you had been so wholly taken up therein that you had thereby forgot your Rudiments you were to be thereupon excused 4. When we said the Relative they must referre not to the next but the remoter Antecedent and which was that only that was asserted by us we did not Magisterially assert this but gave our reasons for this Assertion though you indeed Magisterially reject it not returning any answer to the Argument we gave you for that construction given of our words And therefore your censure of us Satis haec magisteraliter may well by us be sleighted being without all reason 2. We have noted what we thought ours fit to be observed in the answer you would represent us to have given to the question we shall now see what it is wherewith you oppose our Assertion 1. And first you tell us You understood as you do still that the Relative they may referre to the remotest viz. to those that forsake the publick Assemblies in the second Order and the scanaalous in the third Order mentioned but not excluding the meanest Antecedent viz. men of competent knowledge and blameless in life Here you
be thus referred But you having only opposed our rule by laying down a contrary assertion without any reason do now make your inference that then your note of attention as you say we called it stands good Marke men of contempt knowledge and blamelesse life must be warned before all to reforme But all Candid Readers by what hath been said will see this was a forced and uncharitable construction put upon us by your selves only to render us odious and yet still after we had in our Answer declared our selves to the contrary by you imputed to us without and against reason and of which however you may judge your selves we thinke others will count it to proceed from too much will and pertinacy But here you have a profound ground of quarrelling with us for that we distinguished not betwixt marke and harke harke as you say being a note of attention properly marke rather a note of observation as if the attention and observation of the minde were two different things or as if Schoole-Boyes who are never blamed by their learned Masters for calling en ecce notes of attention would not be ready hereupon to tell you that according to your learned distinction betwixt mareke and harke these must not be notes of attention but observation properly because they are rendred behold But you till us this is but by the way though all serious persons will see you were here out of the way in being so light in a serious businesse And now you returne to the Relative they and to whom it refers in our construction that is to those that forsake the publick Assemblies of Saints and turne their backs on the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in the second Order mentioned and to the scandalous persons mentioned in the third to these and none but these our censures extend And this we say still neither have you urged any thing that can have any colour of making good against us to the contrary you having hitherto not argued but only without reason laid down your opposite assertion the groundlesnesse whereof hath been sufficiently discovered by what hath been said 2. But perhaps you would be thought to performe this in the next when you further represent us to say that such as the Minister findes knowing and blamelesse in life shall not be debarred the Sacrament though they present not themselves to the Eldership and that this we say because shame will not suffer us to affirme the contrary and then do aske us but where 's our practice all the while or how observe we the rules we walke by laid down as we had told you in the forme of Church Government But for answer here we say 1. That you have lost your Question which was not whether such as the Minister finds knowing and blamelesse in life shall be debarred of the Sacrament though they present not themselves to the Eldership But whether the Relative they in the fifth Order refer'd not to these and which was the Question your selves had propounded to be discussed and so therefore whether those whom the Minister having catechized and exhorted to present themselves to the Eldership ought not to have their names published and they warned before all to reforme if they harkened not to the Exhortation where we must deny that ever any such a thing was held forth by us in any of the Orders we published however it was that which was by you imputed to us but have not proved though to make the matter somewhat more colourable you alter the state of the Question nor can any such a thing be made out against us either from our practice or the rule we walke by And further we say that if ever we had practised any such a thing or had professed to walke by any such a rule there had been reason why we should have been ashamed 2. But vve must further adde what we have formerly asserted that we do not refuse to admit any to the Sacrament meerly upon this ground because they present not themselves to the Eldership if they be such as are of competent knowledge and blamelesse life the Eldership condescending as hath been said to admit upon the Testimony of the Minister and one Elder or of two Ministers such as have been by them examined and approved Neither is this practice repugnant to any rule laid down in the forme of Church Governement For however it give a power to the Eldership to inquire into the spirituall estate of any member as they shall see occasion yet it doth not strictly oblige them to debarre or reject every one that present not themselves before them although if it be out of meere obstinacy of spirit that they refuse and a desire to overturne the Governement by their opposition there is the greater reason why Ministers and Elders are in such Cases to beware as it is requisite for the securing of the Elderships just power and to prevent the danger and irregularity of the exercise of solitary jurisdiction that none be admitted but by the juridicall act of the Eldership and which as it is that which we practice so it is that power which is granted to the Eldership by the Ordinance appointing the forme of Church Governement The examination and judgement of such persons as shall for their ignorance not be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper being by that Ordinance to be in the power not of any one Minister but of the Eldership of every Congregation and which as it justifies as we told you what is in that kinde practised by the severall Elderships so it also shews what ground we had for that which was mentioned in our Paper touching both what is therein appointed to the Minister about catechizing Families and also concerning the Ministers exhorting such as in the severall families he should finde to be of competent knowledge and knew to be of blamelesse life that they should present themselves to the Eldership And therefore that we may Answer to what you here urge us with out of the Ordinance we say it is one thing not to admit any to the Sacrament but by the juridicall act of the Eldership and another thing to say that none is to be admitted except they present themselves before the Eldership The power mentioned in the former is granted by the Ordinance unto the Eldership and is that which by us is constantly practised In the latter there is a liberty to do as the Eldership shall see occasion and which is in severall Cases with us dispensed with where the Elderships are otherwise satisfied touching the fitness of the persons that are to be by them admitted And yet notwithstanding this it is not the Question as we have already said that is now discussed betwixt you and us whether the knowing and blamelesse be to be kept off from the Sacrament by any Order of ours except they shall present themselves to the Eldership And hereupon your urging us with the Ordinance for
Mosely Esq Francis Mosely Thomas Holland Thomas Simond Captaine John Byrom Gentlemen Subscribed by them and many others containing some exceptions against the Representation agreed on and published by this Class to which an Answer is promised the next Class Mr Harison desired to draw up the Answer and some of the Ministers to meet a weeke before to consult about the same f Classicall Records Feb. 9. 1657. Mr Harrison according to the request of the Class had drawn up an Answer to the Paper which was presented to this Class at their last meeting by sundry Gentlemen which Gentlemen waiting for the said Answer at this time it was ordered that this Answer should be returned to them viz. That if they had directed their Paper to any one single person the Answer might have been prepared and punctually delivered at the time but since they had directed it to the whole Association there must be a time taken that the Answer may pass the consideration and approbation of the whole Class for which reason and for the transcribing of Copies of it as was necessary at present they could not deliver the said Answer though it was in substance prepared But the Class promised that it should be sent in to some one of them whom they should fix on to receive it sometime before the next Class without any further trouble to them They nominated Nicholas Mosely Esq to receive the Paper from this Class The Class is appointed at Manchester February 22. to conclude more speedily about the Answer to be given to the foresaid Paper g Classicall Records Feb. 22. 1657. The Answer was read and approved Mr Buxton and Mr Byrom desired to deliver it to Mr Mosely the day after h Classicall Records March 9. 1657. Nicholas Mosely Esq with other Gentlemen brought another Paper to the Class subscribed by Mr Allen the said Mr Mosely c. the which was read and because in the latter end of it they hinted their unsatisfiedness in what was alledged in our Papers in Answer to their first for the proof of our authority for the exercise of the present Government from the Law of the Land now in force they having charged us before with the danger of a Praemunire The Class resolved to wave any other matter tendred in this last Paper till they made out their exceptions in that thing And this Answer was returned to the foresaid Gentlemen viz. That the Class did desire they would make out what they seemed to assert against the validity of our acting in the Presbyterian Government by virtue of civill Authority i Classicall Records Aprill 13. 1658. Nicholas Mosely Esq and severall Gentlemen as before attended the Class with an Answer to the Classe's last Paper The Class taking into consideration the other contained weighty businesses that were upon them whereby they would not be free to continue this matter in debate by writing thought fit to referre it to a Committee to meet a certain number of the Subscribers of the foresaid Paper to debate the matters further therein and in the former Papers conteined if need required for mutuall satisfaction which being consented unto by such of the Gentlemen as were present the Class appointed Mr Heyrick Mr Angier Mr Harrison Mr Newcome Mr Constantine and the rest of the Ministers within this Class as also Mr Hide Captain Ashton Mr Vrigley Mr Wickins Mr Meare Mr Lancashire Mr Buxton Mr Byrom Mr Wollen or any six of them to be a Committee for this purpose and the Committee to meet the 28th of Aprill instant and after to meet the aforesaid Gentlemen at such time and place as may be agreed on by both Parties k Classicall Records May 12th 1658. The Committee appointed by the last Class gave in an account of their proceedings on the 28th of Aprill the Committee met according to the Order of the Class at the time appointed there appeared on the behalf of the Gentlemen Mr Nicholas Mosely only the Committee understanding that he was at the doore desired Mr Harrison and Mr Wickins to go forth to him and to acquaint him that the Committee was ready to nominate their men that might treat about their last Paper and touching an accommodation according to their former Paper which they did accordingly He replyed the last Paper was not any thing to be discussed c. but only the accommodation Mr Harrison who had brought the Answer of the Class to the Gentlemen that day they had presented their Paper Answered that he mentioned both unto them as matters to be discoursed of He said indeed that before their Paper was read he was sent forth unto them by the Class to signifie unto them that the Class was willing to entertain a treaty with them touching an accommodation and that this was the only thing that at that time was mentioned but when he was sent unto them the second time after that the Class was risen and the Class had heard their Paper read he mentioned both their last Paper and the accommodation as the Subject matter about which the persons to be nominated on both sides were to treat however he or the rest might have forgotten the same But Mr Harrison and Mr Wickins told him they would go in again and further know the Committees mind the Committee hereupon insisted much on the last Paper and conceived it was necessary before they proceeded to treat about an accommodation satisfaction should be given touching some things in it and at which they said they had just reason to be offended and therefore desired Mr Harrison and Mr Wickins to go forth again and tell Mr Mosely so much and that if he pleased to nominate persons that might treat about this as well as touching the accommodation they were ready to proceed To which Mr Mosely replyed that he was not authorized to meddle with any thing about the last Paper and that for his part he could wish all the Papers on both sides were burned and that if the Class was offended at any thing in their last Paper justly he should be ready it being shewed him to make satisfaction at the Market Cross They returned Mr Mosely's Answer to the Committee who taking the matter into further consideration resolved not to infist on the Method but that they would give way that the accommodation might be first treated on provided that at that time the Paper also might be discoursed on and desired Mr Harrison and Mr Wickins to go forth again and to tell Mr Mosely what they had resolved on and to desire him to nominate persons within the bounds of the Class the matter to be debated being before the Class only that might treat with the like number to be nominated by them touching the matter above mentioned To this Mr Mosely replyed they had not Ministers within the Class to equallize the number that the Class might nominate and that therefore he desired on the behalf of the reâ—â— that they might take others that
were not within the bounds of the Class To which the Committee returned Answer they might then take Mr Allen and Mr Pollet that were two Ministers that had subscribed the first Paper and the Class would appoint two Ministers only on their behalf to meet these and some Elders to meet with the like number of Gentlemen to be by them nominated But this not being accepted of and the Committee not being authorized by the Classe to appoint a meeting with those that were out of their bounds it was concluded by the Committee that they would make report to the Class what was desired by Mr Mosely on the behalf of the Gentlemen that so the Class might take that proposall of theirs into their consideration And Mr Mosely said that he would desire Mr Allen and some others to be at the next Classicall meeting to receive the Answer of the Class touching the same And thus the matter betwixt Mr Mosely and the Committee was issued l Classicall Records Mr Allen Nicholas Mosely Esq and other Gentlemen came again to the Class the matter of accommodation was proposed between them and the Class they desired liberty to choose some persons for their part that were not within the Class which was consented unto by the Class the persons nominated by them were Mr Allen Mr Clayton Mr Lightfoot Ministers Mr Nicholas Mosely Mr Francis Mosely and Mr Nathaneell Robinson Gentlemen By the Class were nominated Mr Heyrick Mr Angier Mr Harrison Ministers Mr Hide Captain Ashton Mr Wickins Ruling Elders and the time and place of meeting was by mutuall consent to be agreed on when Mr Heyrich should by the providence of God be returned from London m Classicall Records July 13. 1658. This Class having notice that the Papers which have passed between this Class and Mr Allen and others were Printed with a Preface unto them it was agreed that Mr Heyricke Mr Angier Senior Mr Harrison Mr Newcome Mr Constantine Mr Leigh Mr Jones Mr Walker Ministers Mr Robert Hyde Esq Captain Ashton Mr Strangways Mr Wickins Mr Meare Mr Buxtons Mr Byrome Ruling Elders they or any five of them three being Ministers be a Committee to take this matter into consideration and to meet as they judg fit and see occasion to proceed in this business and to make report of their proceedings the next Class n Classicall Records Aug. 10. 1658. The Committee appointed by the last Class to take into consideration the business of the Papers lately Printed as beforesaid gave an account to this present Class of their proceedings viz. That upon their meeting they agreed to write a Letter to Mr Allen which was in these words directed o Classicall Records To his Reverend Brother Mr Allen at Prestwich These Sir At our Classicall meeting in May last your self and others with you did agree with us upon a meeting in order to an accommodation The time for it was referred by mutuall consent till Mr Heyricks return from London your selves promising upon his return the first Class after to appoint some to attend the Class for the appointing the time and place for the said meeting you were some of you according to the said Agreement expected this day but instead of that we meet with all the Papers Printed and a Preface annexed to them This is to desire you that you would be pleased in the behalf of your self and the rest to certifie us under your hands whether your self and the rest do own the Printing of the Papers with the Preface This I was commanded by the Class to send to you and to desire your speedy Answer Your respective Brother W. Leigh MODERATOR Be pleased to direct your Answer to Mr Heyricke This Letter was the next day delivered to Mr Allen he promised to attend in person on Mr Heyricke the next day after which he accordingly did the account of which their further Answer to the Letter is thus given in under Mr Heyrickes hand Mr Allen came to Mr Heyricke Mr Mosely of the Ancoats accompanying him he said concerning the Printing of the Papers and the Preface he knew nothing of them and therefore he brought Mr Mosely who could give the account Mr Heyricke desired the Answer in writing they both promised they would speak with the rest of the Subscribers and they would within a Fortnight give their Answer in writing within the time prefixed Mr Allen came to Mr Heyricke and told him he had met with them that had Subscribed the Paper and they denied that he should give any Answer in writing saying the Class would but take advantage by it and that now he must own both the Papers and the Preface that there might be no breach amongst themselves RICHARD HEYRICKE 2 Cor. 12. 13. Dr Goffe Dr Vane Dr Bayly c. See Legenda lignea Dr. Hamm. See pag. 144. of his last Book Even as a General Council it self is subject to errour Gal. 2. * The Assemblies Propâ—sitions about Church Government The Jus Divinum by London Ministers The Provincial Synod of London their vindication of the Presbyterian Government Rutherfords due right of Presbyteries Aarons Rod by Gillaspie * Cl. Cop. Full of civility toward us though not of brevity * Cl. Cop. another Cl. Cop. taken away are those any Minister Cl. Cop. Instit lib. 4. cap. 9. sect 8. c 15. Dr. And. Serm. upon worshipping imaginations See Sect. 5. Reasons against moderate Episcopacy 1. Reason Sect. 10. * Wren excommunicated suspended or deprived silenced fifty godly painfull Ministers in two years in Norwiâ—h Diocess for not reading the Book for Sports on the Lords-day for using conceived Prayer before and after Sermon for not reading the Service at the Altar and such like expelled three thousand persons with their Families into other Lands by such dealings Bishop Pierce his practises in the like kind are not forgotten He put down Ministers and Preaching till he thanked God that he had not a Lecture in his Diocess He suspended Ministers for preaching on Market-dayes yea put the Minister to Penance that did but explain the Church Catechisme c. See Mr. Baxter on these things in his defence of the Worcestershire Agreement Pag. 51. 2 Reason * Resutat libel de Regim Eccles Scotorum in pag. 89. 3. Reason 4 Reason 5. Reason * Vide pag. 13. Of the Essex Agreement The Jus divinum of the ruling Elders Office Pag. 42 43. Esthius in Rom. 1â— Aliis placet etiam hac parte speciale quoddam charisma sive officium significari misereri dicaâ—â—â— iis qui ab ecclesia curandis miseris postissimum aegrotis praefectus est i. isque praebet obsequia velut etiam hodie fit in nosocomiis qui sensus handquaquam improbabilâ—s est * Vide pag. 38 39 40. 41 42. Calvin in locum Chrysost upon 1 Cor. 12. 28. Estius upon 1 Cor. 12. 28. Vide pag. 45 46 47. 48. * See the Propositions of the Assembly touching Church-government bound up with the Confession of Faith Catechisme pag. 9 10. The imputtion of Schtaken off * See Sect. 9 of their third Paper * Vide loc theol tom 5. cap. 11. Sect. 156. Page 1. * Ibid. ex Acts 20. 27 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so taken Mat. 2. 6. Rev. 12. 5. and 19. 15. The being of the Church a lawfully Ordained Ministry secured in the want of Episcopacy * Vide pa. 128. of Dr. Bernards late Book * Vide pa. 126. Lib. de Ecclesia cap. 18. fo 123. Cl. cop We have already returned our thanks for your Answer full of civility as to us though not of brevity * See the first Section of it towards the close Cl. cop The Scribe * This is manifest from the advice of the Assembly to the Parliament touching Church Government Cl. cop Say now Cl. cop Several Associations a See forme of Church-government pag. 30. * See Sr Francis Bacon Matth. 28. ver 18. Col. 4. 17. 2 Chr. 26. 18. Vide pag. 130. of their last Book published by Dr Bernard The imputation of perjury taken off a See their jus divinum Ministerij evangelici part 2. pag. 143 144. 2d part Institut fol. 157 158. ‖ See Sect. 9. toward the end The claim for the Presbyterian Government to the civil Sanction made good Cl. cop censurable Cl. cop For this all parties hisse you and laugh you to scorn having as full c. Object Answ Lib. 4. cap. 3. Sect. 16. in fine Cl. cop wandering Cl. cop He was a Person of known Eminency in his dayes Cl. cop the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 3. 15. Cant. 1. 8. Bishop Lauds preface against Usher 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Chap. 17. â— Cl. cop cap. 9. 20. cap. 19. Sect. 5. Cl. cop this mannâ— wresting The Jesuite The Scriptures the sole supreme judge of all matters in Religion Councils and Fathers not the rule of the Scriptures interpretation ‖ See the Provincial Assembly of London in their Jus divinum Ministerij Evangelici part 2. pag. 107. See also Mr. Baxter in his desence of the Worcesteshire agreement pag. 61 62. ‖ See his Commentary upon the Epistle to Titus * part 2. cap 4. * See quest 2. p. 29. Cl. cop cap 2. Civil penalties do not free from Ecclesiastical censure See the â—ction Statutâ— Fardin Pulton See Câ— on of tâ— tutes â—â— dinanaton Cl. cop is See Sâ— towardâ— te rend◠‖ The of Irela Bishop colne th of Carli * Censure to which only the Relative They in the 5th Order is limited Apage Cl. cop Cl. cop * Ha ha hae a The same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 viz. Nineveh not Calah is a great City where the Relative c. * See part 1. page 51 52.