Scriptures the authority of Councels and Synods and you shall find satisfaction to most of the materiall grounds which have misled you in your Church-way In which answers you shall find that the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scripture is principally meant in matters of doctrine and in points necessary to salvation And for policie and externall order wherein the Scriptures doe reach to them it is to be understood of the Essentials Substantials and Fundamentals of Government and Discipline and not of the accidentals accessaries and circumstantials as I could abundantly out of Calvin Beza Zanchius Iunius Daneus shew you But I intend a whole Tractate upon that question of the Scriptures how farre they are a rule for all matters of externall government and order in the visible Church with an answer to this objection particularly and will not enlarge further saving only that I will adde the resolution of this question and case out of Whitaker Chamier and Cameron who are full and cleare that 't is not against the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that all matter of externall order and policie are not laid down in the word Learned Chamier shewes the judgement of the Churches of France Holland nay he shews 't is the perpetuall opinion of all the Protestants and he adds Yea truly to speake as the matter is The Church cannot be altogether without unwritten traditions and he instances in certain Rites according to places times and persons changeable and various So Cameron For since the Scripture hath been ordained of God to make one wise unto salvation and perfect unto every good work it must without doubt containe all doctrine necessary to salvation otherwise it could not attaine its end Let us then adore as Tertullian speakes the fulnesse of the Scriptures and let us not heare as Athanasius speaketh neither receive any thing besides or above them in that which concernes the doctrine of faith For touching the policie and ceremonies used in the Church it is another matter we avouch that the Fathers did not thinke themselves bound to give an account of them by the Scripture So Dr Whitakers speaks also the same in that question and controversie of the perfection of the Scriptures against humane traditions Catholici in hoc toto negotio distinguendum putant inter râ—…s quae traduntur in Ecclesia rationem earum tradendarum res ipsas esse duorum generum scilicot alias in quibus substantia est quasi conpus religionis Christianae non tantum ad fidem sed etiam ad mores formandos politiamque Ecclesiae continendam proinde necessarias ex vi institutionis divinae alias ejuâ—… essentiae velut appondices ejusque corporis ornamenta neque ex sâ—… neque ex institutiono divina necessarias sed potiuâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 politiâ—… tantum causa in usum receptas ut sunt disciplinae partos varijs caenoâ—…ibus sancitae Imo vero ut fateamur quod res est omnino non potest Ecclesia carere Traditionibus non scripâ—…is sive intelligas quotidianam tradendae fidâ—…libus ojus veritatis quae non aliunde hauritur quam è libris sacris rationem sive ritus quosdampro locis tempâ—…ribus persâ—…nis varios aptos tamen exercendae pietati charitatique conservandae qui etsi non extent in canone totidem literis tamen a nemine contemni debent eo ipso quod ab Ecclesia id est pastoribus instituti sunt dum tamen nihil officiant aut sinceritati doctrinae aut libertati conscientiae cui propriè leges prescribit non nisi Deus Non dicimus omnes liberas ceremonias esse nominatim in Scripturis traditas ut quemadmodum se gerere debeant homines in sacris caetibus hujusmodi quas esse varias 〈◊〉 pro temporum personarum ratione minime ignoramus de caeremonijs inquam liberis quae ad externam tantum politiam decorum pertinent non contendimus sed de necessaria doctrina Haec perpetua illae vero non perpetuae sed ad tempora accommodatae Deinde fatemur Apostolos in singulis Ecclesiis ritus aliquos atque consuetudines ordinis decoris causa sanxisse non autem scripsisse quia hi ritus non fuerunt perpetui futuri sed liberi qui pro commodo temporum ratione muâ—…ri possunt Praescriptos autem ab illis esse ejusmodi ritus aliquos ad honestam Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accommodatos pater ex 1 Cor. 11. 14. cap. Tantum generalis regula habetur in Scripturis omnes istosritus ad adificationem ac decorum esse dirigendos sed ipsi particulares ritus non proponuntur At dicimus omnia quae necessaria sunt sive ad fidem sive ad vitam spectent apertè abundè in Scripturis explicari Now as for the exception made by you of this rule of meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature where what you affirme seems to amount to this that you practised all the examples of the Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles excepting those Suffer me to aske you these few questions upon your exceptions made of this first rule First What you meane by meere circumstances and what by the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate because the Reader may be much deceived in these generall and doubtfull expressions you should have done well to have particularized what you judge circumstances and what meere circumstances and what be the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as also have laid downe before the Reader how you in your Church-way keepe unto these and I aske the rather because I find a Sermon of Mr Bridge one of the Authors of this Apologie preacht before the House of Commons not long before this Apologie came forth that makes none of these exceptions but excepts and excludes them shewing that in the visible Church Gods word is our line able to reach unto all particular affaires of the Churches and in particular he labours to answer that of circumstances and perverts two sayings of Luther and Bishop Iewel Secondly Whether you doe practise and observe your own rule here given with the exceptions made by you or whether you doe not much depart from it in your Church-way not yeelding to meere circumstances nor the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as for instance receiving the Lords Supper at night contrary to the practise of the reformed Churches standing upon that circumstance of time denying appeales from the particular Congregations whereas appeales are a rule the law of nature doth in common dictate Thirdly I demand of you how you could so nakedly propound the Apostolicall directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches to walke by excepting meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature and not except withall extraordinary and miraculous personall and particular occasionall and accidentall temporary and locall patterns and examples I owne the Scripture for the rule rightly understanding it and in matters of Discipline and church-Church-order professe to walke by it desiring to be tied to the Scripture patterns particularly to the patterns of examples and precepts recorded in the new Testament provided this be understood in essentials and fundamentals of order in matters of perpetuall use and of a common reason to all times and
they goe by that therefore they are in the right certainly the great difficultie in knowing and finding out the directions and examples and in applying them aright and their weake knowledge will give ground sufficient to all reasonable men to suspect the contrary And for your selves Brethren the Reader hath greater reason to judge from what you here grant about the difficultie of the Scriptures in the Church-way and your insufficiencie and ignorance in many cases and to many queries that you might be out of the way then from the sufficiency of the Scriptures to make Churches perfect and your making the Scriptures your supreame rule that you only should be in the right and withall taking-in this that the Reformed Churches you depart from and all along reflect upon in this Apologeticall Narration holding the Scriptures in a true sense to have a perfection for Church-government and setting them up as the supreame rule to eye continually and having the great advantage of you knowing the directions and examples in Scripture better then you by reason of their great learning numbers long studying these points all you speake here of this principle as a ground to take men with and possesse the Readers of the truthof your way rather then theirs hath no strength in it but the scale of sufficiencie of knowledg and ability of finding out the rules and applying being heavier on the Reformed Churches side and the other scale of making the Scriptures the rule equall to yours also you must needs be found light compared with them But after your supposition of the great difficulty of understanding this rule and profession of the non-sufficiencie of your knowledge by which you weaken so much what you would gaine by the narration of setting up this first principle as the supreame rule without you yet before you leave it in the following words you seeme to affirme it Indeed interfeering and hovering about not knowing well where to light and to settle between the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to all Church matters and the difficultie of finding out the rules and directions As the precedent words and subsequent put together doe shew For you found principles enough not only fundamentall and essentiall but superstructorie also and those to you cleare and certaine and such as might well serve c. Now let the Reader judge if these words doe not not declare a sufficiencie of your knowledge without either Ifs or And 's But you must pardon me if I doe not beleeve you found principles enough superstructorie and that upon these two following grounds 1. Had you found principles enough superstructorie for the wel-being of your Churches and those cleare and certaine and such as might well serve to preserve your Churches in peace and from offence and would comfortably guide you to heaven in a safe way How came it to passe that you made no better a use of them for the well-being of your Churches to have preserved them in peace and from offence but that in so short a time so many offences and differences should fall out and you go so uncomfortably to heaven doubting whether you were in the right way for Church-government and order 2. If you had found out principles enough superstructorie why did you not name them at least some of them you might have done well to have given the Reader a taste of them it would have given good content especially in such a Narration I am of opinion both upon your totall silence and upon some search into these points that besides the fundamentall and essentiall principles to the being of a visible Ministeriall Church you found not many superstructories laid downe particularly in the Primitive Churches either in practise or precept namely ordinary perpetuall c. And I doe desire you setting aside Fundamentall essentiall and substantiall principles that for the superstructories upon them and your deductions you would give me proofes from the Scripture for many of your practises setting aside generall rules of the word and common rules of reason and prudence And whereas you make the observation of so many of those particulars laid forth in the word to become a more certain evidence and cleare confirmation that there were the like rules and ruled cases for all occasions whatsoever if you were able to discerne them Had you exprest any of those particulars the Reader might have gained somewhat and I could have better told from your instances what to have answered you and might have shewne you the dissimilitude how they might not have inferr'd the rest but here as in other passages of your booke you find it safest to be in the clouds and to lie hid in generals But grant it for once you observed many particulars It followes not therefore from many to all But this is a point and principle wherein weake arguments will become certain evidence and cleare confirmation to you But let me hint only some things to you now because this discourse is but the answer of a Narration not of all arguments that may be brought you are mistaken both in your Observation and your cleare confirmation of what followes for you shall find that in the superstructories of the government of the Church there are but few particulars laid downe in the patterne and example of the Primitive Churches and those primitive practises are not such a rule given by God in matters of that nature as that all things then practised must be so in all after times or that nothing afterwards might be practised but what is found there For besides meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature there are in severall Churches other things tending to the better edification of those Churches to comelinesse decencie outward reverence order peace grounded upon generall rules of the word which in other Churches are not so by reason of the different customes of such countries and the diversities of times and places wherein they were For that is comelinesse and reverence in one country which is not in another So that my observation of so few particular superstructories recorded in the Primitive Churches namely of common ordinary perpetuall order with the different practises in the severall Churches recorded in the new Testament and sometimes in the same Church in many things of the outward administration of externall order are sound proofes to me there are not rules nor ruled cases for many superstructories in externall Government And as to that clause which followes next in this Section for all such cases wherein you saw not a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction you still professedly suspended untill God should give you further light not daring to eeke out what was defective in your light in matters divine with humane prudence c. For answer I must tell you you either saw that in the Scripture that we cannot see by all search or else you practised many things that have no cleare resolution from Scripture neither in example
places only I adde that in some things where in matter of order and externall government there may be no such cleare directions either by precept or example there generall rules of the word with deductions out of Scripture examples and from precepts by way of Analogie with rules of common prudence be taken in too Now the interpretation of this rule as I have laid it downe being rejected and the rule simply taken up without such limitations will produce a wilde and strange discipline and church-Church-order to practise all things recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles without distinction and difference of those times persons places and ours and on the other hand to practise nothing but what hath a cleare example or precept is strange too and in so doing reasonable men cannot become a Church society nor exercise Church communion And however in matters of externall government and administration of holy things in the visible Church some pretend to this to practise whatever they find recorded in the Scriptures and to practise nothing whatsoever they find not there yet none of the Independents no not the highest forme of them the Anabaptists nor the highest sort of Anabaptists who were called Apostolici from their pretending to imitate the Apostles in all things ever yet have or doe practise all patternes and examples recorded in the new Testament or are contented with them alone but practise somewhat over and above not particularly recorded in Scripture I could lay downe a catalogue of many particulars specified in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles not practised in your Churches nor in any Churches of the independent way as also of many things practised by you which we never read of in the Scriptures so that all the Independents are in many things according to the first patterne both defective and excessive But I referre the full handling of this to a Tractate I intend concerning the Scriptures How farre the Scriptures are a rule for all matters of Church government and order in the visible Church I adde only one thing for the Readers sake that they be carefull to understand this first principle of yours not so nakedly as you lay it downe in page 8 9 10 11. because it hath been is and may be a rock to split many on and an Ignis fatuus to lead many into waters instead of a sacred pillar of fire to guide to Heaven in a safe way This foolish imitation of the Apostles in all things in matters of externall order hath been and is the great foundation of evils on all hands both in many practises and points of Popery and amongst the Anabaptists as I could demonstrate in particulars Learned Danaeus in his Commentaries upon 1. Tim. cap. 5. speakes of it Schlusselburgius writes also that there is a sort of Anabaptists cal'd Apostolici so named because they professed to imitate the Apostles in all things they washed one anothers feet they held all things ought to be common they travailed up and downe without staffe shooes cloake money because of Christs words they went up to the tops of houses to preach because Christ had said what you have heard in the eare preach upon the house top Now how farre the want of these limitations and distinctions in this your first rule hath led some of you into errors and strange practises and may leade you further as into annoynting the sick with oyle baptising in rivers c. I leave you to consider of But yet this first and great principle upon which you went and reared up your new Church way how difficult and abstruse a rule and how doubtfull a ground-worke doe you make it before you passe from it by making that supposition upon it If the directions and examples therein delivered were fully knowne and followed And that you cannot professe that sufficiency of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules c. Now then brethren consider with your selves according to your owne grant how for all this principle of the Primitive patterne to guide you by yet it being so hard to know and find out the way and you not having that sufficiencie of knowledge to lay forth the rules how easily might you be out of the way then for all this principle and how can we indeed thinke otherwise of you being a few men and going by your selves So that supposing the Apostolicall directions and Primitive examples of the Churches not excluding the Old Testament and Gospels to be the only rule of the outward administration and government of the visible Church and granting these were more especially in your eye to guide and steere your practise by considering by your own confession there is so much difficulty to make these out and to lay downe what is a binding and standing direction and what not what is meerly circumstantiall and what not and how to apply many things which fall out to such rules and such examples recorded Yet wee may see how unsafe and dangerous it was for you and for a few persons to set up Churches and Church-government and we may hence learne what great use and need there is of Synods and Assemblies to draw out Church-government and discipline and still in all difficult cases to meet for the debating and determining of things And by the way let me admonish many of your followers of their boldnesse and rashnesle of determining in matters of Church-government and order holding all things about discipline and Church-government to be so manifestly and clearely laid downe in the Scriptures as the light of the Sunne and thereupon censuring many for not holding with them imputing it to their want of self-deniall and spirituall knowledge By this they may see their great Leaders judge otherwise who speaking upon the Scriptures being a compleate rule to make the Churches perfect put in a caution and declare They cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge as to be able to lay forth all those rules therein which may meet with all cases and emergencies that may or sometimes did fall out amongst them Now if the Apologists men so able cannot professe that sufficiencie of knowledge c. who yet according to their owne Narration tell us how they saw the darke part before many others and how they had all that light of the Non-conformists Reformed-churches New-England c. What shall we thinke of a few private illiterate Christians setting up of Churches and framing a government will this assure them though the Scriptures be a perfect rule for Church-government and this is the supreme rule
in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
and now of later yeares Scotland of old having been troubled with the Separatists and the Churches of France by Morellius against whom Sadeel did write and Beza in his Epistles writes against that principle of the power of the people that nothing is ratified except the people present by their expresse suffrages doe decree it and against private mens prophecying in the Church and of late though the controversie be growne so high yet Divines both in Holland and Scotland as your selves confesse have writ against your way and can see no light Iâ—…m it and in a generall Assembly of Scotland since our Parliament the point being moved and debated there it was concluded against by the whole Assembly nemine contradiconte as a Letter written from that Assembly to many Ministers in the City which I heard read at a meeting testifies neither are any of the Reformed Churches yet satisfied by all that hath been written about your Independent government nor our present Assembly by all they have heard from you after so many dayes speaking for your way So that what the Reformed Churches stand for now is not as comming new out of Poperie and so wanting light as you assert and therefore though they had not Apostolicke Infallibilitie yet they might well be in the right for Church-government and therefore the Reformed Churches and the Church of England too judging of government now after above 80. years comming out of Poperie and after hearing all that hath been said and that you can say now after almost a yeares sitting in the Assembly They yet judge Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be the true forme of Church-government against your Independencie so that now the ground you going upon being taken away you cannot without great prejudice to the Reformed Churches so peremptorily judge them as you doe in this place of your Apologie And as your practise cannot be without prejudice to them and the imputation of Schisme in you from them to set up new Churches and divide from them upon these grounds so this passage of yours here against all the Reformed Churches cannot avoyd the suspition of great arrogancie and pride to proclaime your selves to see more then all the Churches in worship and government and to judge them so 'T is a high presumption that five such young men as you are and no deeplier studied should thus proudly and tanquam ex tripode so magisterially conclude against all the Reformed Churches Certainly had you had the humilitie of many of Gods servants you would rather have feared and questioned whether you might not have been mistaken in your grounds and therefore modestly have propounded your doubts to the Assembly to have resolved them rather then before the points ever came to be debated in the Assembly in such matters where you goe against the common streame of all Reformed Churches to have thus professedly peremptorily and resolvedly both in this Section and in the next pag. 24. determined the questions And brethren let me friendly mind you who are you five of what standing reading graces to take so much to your selves and to be so peremptory that you should see that which all the Reformed Churches doe not nor are not able by any of your Arguments nor what else is extant to see or be convinced of But as for the close to this part of the Section concerning the Calvinian Reformed Churches that it may hopefully be conceived that God left England more unreformed as touching Government and Worship then the neighbour Churches were c. It is a strange speech and savours of a strange high conceit of your owne way of Independencie and of your great light and abilitie in this Assembly where the Church of England is to be reformed and to speake plainly the English and sence of all these lines is this That it may be hopefully conceived that God in his secret yet wise and gracious dispensation hath all this long time for above 80. years left England more unreformed and of his infinite mercy on purpose reserved it for this present Assembly that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. might bring a new light in Church government and order and so Scotland and the Neighbour-Churches might be new-moulded into their way But how ever some of you are men of strong fancies and all of high confidences of your owne opinions and wayes yet I beleeve you will be deceived at this time how ever you may comfort your selves and Churches with the hopes of prevailing at another time saying that Presbyterie shall fall as Episcopacie hath done after it's time one of that way for want of arguments having used such words to me and that M. Goodwin M. Nye c. will not be able to effect what they desire and hope for but it may be rather hopefully conceived that in stead of the reformed Churches comming to them these five members of the Assembly at last with others to upon this glorious Reformation will be brought to joyn with other reformed Churches according to the solemn Covenant and oath themselves have entred into We found also which was as great an affliction to us as our former troubles and banishment our opinions and wayes wherein we might seeme to differ environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and our persons with reproaches Besides other calumnies as of schisme c. which yet must either relate to a differiâ—…g from the former Ecclesiasticall government of this Church established and then who is not involved in it as well as we or to that constitution and government that is yet to come and untill that be agreed on established and declared and actually exist there can be no guilt or imputation of schisme from it That proud and insolent title of independencie was affixed unto us as our claime the very sound of which conveyes to all mens apprehensions the challenge of an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependence or rather a trumpet of defiance against what ever power spirituall or civill which we doe abhorre and detest or else the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us Although upon the very first declaring our judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged that we differ much from them And we did then and doe here publikely professe we beleeve the truth to lye and consist in a midle way betwixt that which is falsely charged on us Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I desire you to resolve me and the Reader how the first sentence in this Section Your opinions and wayes environed about with a cloud of mistakes and misapprehensions and your persons with reproaches can stand with those words in the 24 page We found many of those mists that
spread and they gained so many of the Magistrates on their side we should have found there would have been no ground for Mr Simpson to write thus As is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists and Socinians In a word till the calling of Synods and the power of Presbyteriall government was shaken and some Arminians by flattery and policie wrought to put by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies and appealed to the Magistrates as Mr Simpson does in this Apologie from the Assembly there was not so great a defection both of Ministers and people unto errors in turning Papists Socinians c. 3. Though Presbyteriall government hath not its free course in the Low-Countries as in France Geneva Scotland besides the Toleration there yet there are infinitely fewer miscarriages in censures divisions errors in the Presbyteriall Churches then in the Independents there having been more contentions miscarriagâ—…s falling into errors in one small Church of the Independent way at Amsterdam and that within lesse then one yeere then in all the Churches in some Provinces I remember perfectly I have read in Mr Pagetts Arrow against Separation a man who lived long in Holland and much versed in the Controversie how he showes that out of a few members in the Brownists Churches more fall to Anabaptisme c. then out of many thousand members of the Presbyteriall Churches amongst the Dutch or out of all the English Reformed Churches there So that notwithstanding this new objection brought against Presbyteriall government if the Parliament should please to settle it and that in the full power and free use of Classes and Synods denying also a Toleration for Independencie unto which all erroneous and discontented spirits upon all occasions would flow and gather instead of opening a wide gate for errors divisions and many other mischiefes they shall lay a sure foundation for truth and peace in these Churches And in the last words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland I conclude this last Reason against a Toleration The Church of England which God hath blessed with so much learning and piety by this Reformation and uniformity with other reformed Churches which all of us have solmnely sworne and subscribed to endeavour in our severall places and callings should be a praise in the earth Now did not other occasions call me to take off my hand besides the booke it selfe swelled already to such a number of sheets I would have answered all the reasons brought both for Tolerations in generall and particularly for the Congregationall way as that men are to be perswaded in matters of Religion and not compelled as that the Conscience is to be left free as that the deniall of a Toleration will be a great persecution as that this is the way to make men hypocrites as that Gods people are a willing people c. but reserving this to another season in the close of this Discourse I will propound these following questions to the Apologists 1. Whether the commanding of men by the power of Lawes to doe their duties to doe the things which God requires of them with the using of outward meanes to worke them to it when unwilling be unlawfull for the Magistrate and against Christian libertie yea or no 2. In your moving for a Toleration doe you desire it for you five only with those who are actually and will come in to be members of your Churches or for all the Churches who are of the same way and Communion if for your selves and Churches onely which would be more tolerable a few then a great number and you being persons of more worth then most of the others consider the solemne League and Covenant is against it That we shall without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine so that you cannot be tolerated more then others besides if that were granted you being but five Ministers and making up but three or foure Churches the Parliament would be never the neerer in giving satisfaction for what should become of all the rest of the Ministers and Churches in City and Countrey of Mr C. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr W. c. the Parliament would be accounted partiall and further off from giving content then if they granted none at all But if it be said you desire it for all Churches of your constitution I answer expresse so much under your hands and I will then give you an answer 3. Whether would you have a Toleration granted in the generall and indifferently for all consciences sects and opinions or only for some sort of opinions I suppose being wise men you will not expresse your selves for a Toleration in the first sense but in the latter I desire to know of you then what limits and bounds you will set and where the Parliament shall stop and what rules you will give for this as first whether the limitation shall be a Toleration only for all different formes of Church-Government and order so long as they agree in Doctrine with the Church established and are Orthodox but not of doctrine Now if you hold so then the Brownists and the Bishops with those who are for the Hierarchie must be tolerated as well as you many Episcopall men being sounder in doctrine then some of your way and if so then the simple Anabaptists and that sort of simple Anabaptists called Dippers will come in too saying that Baptisme at such an age and baptizing in rivers by dipping are but matters of order and time and what if yet a new forme of Church Government and way of externall order in the Administration of Gods Ordinances be set up by some a way which hath never yet beene practised by any must that be tolerated also consider with your selves whether there may not be a safer allowance of difference in some doctrines and opinions then of different governments as also what you have expressed of the consequence of Church Government and order and then resolve me whether you will have all formes of Church-Government allowed and in my Rejoynder I will apply my selfe particularly to show you the danger of that and how much hazard there is even of the Doctrine from the Discipline and Order if that be not right Or secondly would you have a Toleration in points of Doctrine too namely in lesser differences I desire to know what you will make the rule and measure of those lesser differences whether whatever may stand with saving grace and is not against the fundamentals of Doctrine and civill Government or what else Now if you meane so who shall determine and judge what may stand with saving grace c. every Heretick Socinian c. will plead his opinion may and I aske of you whether many points and practises very bad and pernitious may not stand with saving grace in some men at least for a time what say you to Polygamie that hath stood with saving
to gaine the greater credit and beliefe to the things asserted in my Booke and to remove this opinion from lurking in many other bosomes and in particular to make the charge sit heavier upon the Anatomizer by speaking particularly to the matters of fact concerning him in accepting of his motion and request of proving the reports concerning him by witnesses and before a judicatorie I must therefore answer to the three Propositions of the Anatomizer as they have reference to the Antapologie 1. That many things reported in this Antapologie are misreported 1. Let the Reader observe that the Anatomizer though he play the fore-game and will be before hand in speaking to a Book before it come forth and because truth will hardly overtake aâ—…ye that is set out foure or five dayes before it as himselfe speakes therefore he will be sure to send forth in time even some dayes before reports come out yet the Anatomizer doth not say all things reported are misreported so that though many things may be misreported many things also may be truly reported and in page 4. in the definition he is pleased to give of the Antapologie 't is a Collection of such faults as either ment mistakes and malice or perhaps mens own infirmities have made either beyond the seas or here he denies not the truth of all the reports and faâ—…les but grants them with a perhaps 2. I desire the Reader to consider that for the matters of fact related in the Apologie which in this Answer I speake unto asserting the contrary upon Reasons and grounds laid downe by me I never intended by such an Answer to make a Judiciarie infallible proofe which as 't is not necessary in the way of answering matter of fact so neither can it be by rationall men expected as if without that no sufficient Answer were given to disprove facts but only a rationall probable proofe from Letters and other Manuscripts going under the names of the Apologists and superscribed to their known friends from reports of men of credit and such who have lived amongst them hearing and seeing things and from many circumstances of place time c. by which in reason men may well judge accordingly and for this kind of proofe I beleeve I can make as rationall and conscientious a one to satisfie my selfe and all indifferent persons to judge according to what I write as hath been made these many yeares for since the Apologie came forth I have used a great deale of care diligence and circumspection both by 〈◊〉 to know the truth of things I formerly had been informed of and by inquiting particularly of many persons concerning circumstances and their proofes and questioning with them how they knew such a thing c. as also by forbearing to insert matters related to me upon a single tesâ—…monie and witnesse where there were not other strong circumstances conâ—…ing to make them out And yet for all the care I have used 't is possible that among so many things related by 〈◊〉 there may be some mistakes in the reports of some circumstances in matter of order and time place or number though I know none such and yet the report and fact true A report may be true and yet mistaken in one circumstance which when it comes to scanning may prove more foule in another so that the â—…se stands thus whether the Apologists relating such and such matters oâ—… fact an Answeâ—…er having evidences and testimonies by him of Letters written in their names reports from credible men as godly Ministers and Christians their own friends with other circumstances concurring hath not reason to question the truth of such facts and to answer to them by laying downe his grounds why he judges otherwise and for my Answer to the Apologists if in their Reply they deny any of the matters of fact I speake unto I will in my Rejoynder at the end of it print all their Letters with other Letters of their friends that I have by me and name the parties from whose hands I had them and how I came by them and relate other circumstances which for present I have concealed and then let the Reader judge whether I had not reason to beleeve and Answer as I doe But as for a Judiciarie proofe of all matters of fact in my Antapologie I not seeing those Letters writ and most of my Letters being but copies and many of the facts being done beyond the seas considering also 't is possible the relators may mistake in some things I cannot positively and judicially sware and make out such a kind of proofe 3. For some matters of fact spoken to in this Antapologia I know and am certaine of in my own knowledge and had them from some of the Apologists own mouthes and though they 〈◊〉 have forgotten them I can for a need rubbe up their memories by minding them 〈◊〉 the places times and occasions which they cannot deny I have also some originall Letters by me to prove some things asserted by me in this Answer and for the most materiall things of their preaching and acting for their way besides that the things themselves speake and are notorious I have many eare and eye witnesses both of Ministers and people which I can produce so that if I have reason to beeleeve a report of any thing I see noâ—… nor beare not upon the place as that there was a siege at Yorke and a great victory obtained by the Parliaments Forces neere Yorke c. I have ground to beleeve many of the particulars instanced in by way of Answer to the Apologeticall Narrationâ—… Now finding severall passages in the Apologie in point of fact related with height of considence contrary to my knowledge and to the testimonie of many with a coÌ„currence of other circumstances which I could not doubt of observing other matters of fact brought by the Apologists to take the people with against which though there were not such strong proofs yet in the drawing up my Answer to such pâ—…ticulars whether might not I now upon probable grounds as one sufficient witnesse with the circumstance of place and time c. question these and judge them to be much like the others 4. Particularly for M. Simpson because he hath publikely printed that the Antapologie is a â—…ction of such faults as either mens mistakes and malice or perhaps meâ—… own infirmities have made either beyond the seas or here in which sentence it is to be observed by the way he confuâ—…es all that 's brought by himselfe against the Anatomie or the Antapologie himselfe taking up reports suddenly and beleeving here sayes before he ever saw any one sheete yea or one page of the Antapologie branding a Minister and his Booke for a collection of such faults as either mens mistakes and malice have made by tellinâ—… this not only to a particular Church but to all the Churches in the World as printing doth and because he puts up a reqâ—…est that the Reader will
State-ends and politicall interests namely â—…at when some great persons Lords and others should be forced through the badnesse of the times as was expected and feared to seek for shelter in Providence and Hispaniâ—…la you might be there ready to remoove with them and be taken along into those Countreyes where you hoped to set up new Churches and subdue those Countreyes and people which should come over into your mould Or if otherwise things in England should come to have a great turne as they had by this Parliament then also by being in Holland rather then New-England you were nigh hand and your estates more at command quickly to returne to England having this Kingdome in your eye hoping you might either subdue England into the way of your Church-goverâ—…ent or else gaine a great party to you 〈◊〉 the Kingdome which we see is unhappily fallen out And 〈◊〉 all the State-ends and interests to come which you might loâ—…ke upon in your remooving to Holland there were worldly râ—…spects and interests for the present to make you goe in the Churâ—…-way as I have before observed And to all these whereas yoâ—… make the having no new-Common-wealths no Kingdomes to eye to frame Church-government unto as the ground of falling upon the right way Let it be considered by you and the Reader that the framing of a Church-government according to the conjunction of a few godly persons either in a Plantation or as strangers in a Common-wealth and not considering of a Church-government for Nations and Kingdomes that when Kingdomes and Nations doe receive the faith and the Magistrates are Christians and Orthodox that there must be a Church-government as for a Nation and Kingdome is that very thing that deceives you there being alia ratio urbis ac orbis and so a great difference of governing a family two or three or of a Towne and of governing a Nation and Kingdome But as for that Parenthesis you make before you end this Section That your Governement will bâ—… coexistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Governmeâ—… on earth out of the great care you have least your Church-gâ—…nment should suffer in the thoughts of many that it is not consistent with the peace of Civill-government 't is so farre from truth that your Government and Church-way cannot stand with the peace of any forme of Civill government no not with Democraticall government much lesse Aristocraticall or Monarchicall but should it be but tolerated much more established as the government in a Kingdome and Nation we should quickly find the contrary with a witnesse In this Intervall of Church-government we feele without a formall toleration of it woefull effects opposite to the peace and good of civill government And I desire to know from you how you will proove it and we shall be assured of it for we dare not take your bare word seeing that never yet any Kingdome or Nation entertained your Church-way and government there being yet no experiment of it which of the Presbyteriall goverment hath been in Kingdomes and Common-wealths this fourescore yeares And I must tell you that in New-England which yet was farre from being a Kingdome and Nation when they began to multiply and encrease this government had like to have ruined them both in Church and Common-wealth and had they not enterposed and since doe daily the power of the Magistrate and many suitable principles to the Presbyteriall way they had been ruined before this and what yet will be the issue unlesse they fall off more and more from their Independency a little time will shew and there are Letters from thence complaining of the confusions of necessity depending on that government We were not engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And although we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in their writings and practisâ—… yet we could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our first Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine in which they had a most happy hand And 〈◊〉 had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not beeâ—… advanced and held forth among them as in this our Island as themselves have generally acknowledged We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our own Divines the good old Non-conformists had struck forth in their times And the draughts of Discipline which they had drawn which we found not in all things the very same with the practises of the Reformed Churches And â—…hat they had written came much more commended to us not only because they were our own but because sealed with their manifold and bitter sufferings We had likewise the fatâ—…ll miscarriages and ship-wracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as Land-marks to forewarne us of thâ—…se rocks and shelves they ran upon which also did put us upon an inquirie into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions Last of all We had the recent and later example of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-mentioned helps of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation and among them some as holy and judicioâ—… Divines as this Kingdome hath bred whose sincerity in theâ—… way hath been testified before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his own Countrey and his sâ—…ed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and and that by sea into a wildernesse meerely to worship God more purely whither to allure them there could be no other invitement And yet we still stood as vnengaged spectators free to examine and consider what truth is to be found in and amongst all these all which we looke upon as Reformed Churches and this nakedly according to the word We resolved not to take up our Religion by or from any party and yet to approve and hold fast whatsoever is good in any though never so much differing from us yea orposite unto us It may be if you had been engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches that you had seen the order and peace in some of the Reformed Churches and had you conversed with them before you drunke in these opinions you had never been transported with them in opposition to so many most worthy Churches but to what end is this brought in with all those particulars newly mentioned in the foregoing page We had we had with that passage in the close of the last Section We had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to
of this they make things accidentally evill according as this is things are or are not ordinances and meanes of salvation Baptisme is no baptisme unlesse it be administered by a Minister A Minister is no Minister unlesse cal'd by the Church and so I might speake of other things By all which it will appeare that Mr Simpson had thoughts and doubts and would have others have such thoughts too that we have neither Churches nor Ordinances nor Ministers according to his definition of a Church and to the matter contained in his letter and in the close of his letter though he writes I meddle not with judging of these things with you but propound you a rule or way to judge of things by I dare not say your Congregations are not Churches but desire you to looke that they be so for your owne peace yet it is evident by what he sayes in his letter that he accounts neither our Churches nor our Ministers true and would stumble him in these things to whom he wrote I have a manuscript entituled a Treatise of the Church going under the name of one of these Apologists and a godly Minister from whose hands I had it assured it me it was his In which Treatise there is an answer to this question But suppose Saints live in a Nation wherein there is some kind of a Church constituted already may they gather themselves into a Church The Answer is as followes 1. If you suppose that there are Churches in England yet such as never were truly members of any of them are free to begin and gather themselves into a Church and to be of the best Institution they can this libertie we under the Gospel have which the Jewes had not 2. Although they are Churches yet we â—…re not to continue in them and not remaine from them 1. In that they are Churches defective in some Ordinances as namely Prophecying mutuall admonition excommunication 2. They are Churches defiled in our judgements in which communicating we cannot but be defiled now though they be Churches as a leprous man was a man yet being defiled we cannot communiâ—…ate with them and so in regard of our use now no Churches and in the same page it is added we may be kept from joyning with the true Church and yet not withdraw from these as no Churches but as no Churches of use to us Now I appeale to the Reader what he can judge of your profession in the sixt page and of these passages in your letters and manuscripts and as some of your hands are contrary to this profession so your workes are contrary to it in forsaking the communion of our Churches and ministerie and in drawing others away and in writing to many to come to you and in setting up Churches and pray deale ingeniously once in your Reply seeing you ever held and doe now much more that our Assemblies are true Churches and our Ministers true Ministers how you can satisfie your owne consciences and us from any Scripture ground either of precept or example to separate from us I am assured you cannot produce any ground and that all Scripture instances whether in examples or precepts will never come up to your practise and case But Brethren why will you in a Narration that should be plaine that all who â—…unne may reade it deale thus fallaciously amuse the Reader with your profession of our Churches and Ministerie in such generals and never declare what you hold particularly of them Few Readers unlesse some who have throughly studied your principles and distinctions being never the wiser for your profession I must therefore of necessity English your words and tell the meaning of all this That is neither the Church or Churches of England nor the Ministery thereof as they are in their frame and constitution according to the Lawes and as they are in their visible order are true Churches or true Ministerie But now so farre as in many of our Parochiall Congregations there is something common with what you hold about a Church and Ministerie so farre true and not Antichristian As for example you hold that in some Congregations we have many visible Saints and in some Parishes Ministers chosen by the people which Ministers preach and pray according to your way but for what we else practise in our making of Ministers in our formes of prescribed prayers c. So no true Churches nor Ministerie And that this is your meaning will appeare by what followes 1. Letters and speeches of some of your way who write not so warily as you show so much Mr Batchelour a member of your Church-way in printed letters of his dated from Rotterdam September the 4th 1641. both to Ministers here in London and to Citizens speakes thus in reference to you And whereas it is beleeved they are friends to separation this I can assure you that they denie not the Churches in England such as M. Calamies and M. Goodwins in Coleman-street to be true Churches And why M. Goodwins and M. Calamies but because they were chosen by the Congregations and there are many visible Saints in those Congregations and so others of your way having been reasoned with how according to your principles That there is no Nationall visible Church under the new Testament no visible Church but a particular Congregation and that the Essence of Ministers calling is Election by the people and that the forme of a Church is a particular Covenant with other things of this Nature And therefore considering the Church of England is Nationall and hath no such Covenant nor such a way of Ministerie how they could hold we had true Churches and true Ministers Their Answer hath been You have Implicite Churches and Implicite Ministers But if you will say you understand your words in this Section not as M. Batchelour nor as others of your way but plainly as Divines usually take Churches and Ministerie then I desire you to reconcile together all your definitions and descriptions of true visible Churches and true Ministers with our Church and Ministery of England And for further satisfaction in this point I desire you in your reply to this Answer candidly and clearely to expresse your selves when you fell to your Church-way and were to be taken for Ministers in those Churches whether you held your selves or were look'd upon by your Churches as true Ministers by vertue of your calling in England Or whether rather you were not lookt upon only as gifted men and did not some of you at least renounce and disclaime your calling in England and were made Ministers a new by the Church consisting only of people or lay-Elders at the best without Ministers M. Williams in his Answer to M. Cottons letter openly justifies they held and practised so in New-England Now your principles agreeing so with theirs and some Stories related to me of some of you makes me doubt the same of you As for that reason you give why you never held our Churches no
or direction and pray in your Reply to this answer shew me what cleare Resolution you saw from Scripture for your Church-covenant If it be so cleare shew it us What came the word of God out from you or came it to you only hath God given us eyes to see and know the mysteries of his kingdome to see such things as no glorious hypocrite in the highest forme can see and can we not see what is common to hypocrites as well as to true Saints Certainly had Mr Goodwin had such cleare resolution from Scripture for the Church-covenant he would never have returned such an answer after so long a time of receiving Mr Iohn Goodwins letter written with such Giant-like confidence against the Church-covenant as to desire after many weeks longer day to give satisfaction in regard Church-covenant lay so deepe and remote amongst the fundamentals of Church-fellowship which debt I beleeve was never yet paid to this day I should be loath for my part in any thing I practise or hold to have a cleare resolution from Scripture to put off my Brother for proofe of it till to morrow Give me an Apostolicall example or rule if you can where ever the people alone made Ministers why did you not here suspend how durst you be made Ministers in this way by the people alone and either be Ministers without Imposition of hands at all or if any Imposition not by the laying-on of the hands of the Presbyterie but the hands of the people both which are not onely without any example of Scripture but against the Primitive patterne and example Give me a Primitive patterne wherein baptized persons professing the faith of Christ and walking so may not be admitted to Fellowship and communion in the Lords Supper without professing their membership of some particular Congregation Give me a word either of precept or example where ever the lay-Elders did examine persons professing the faith whether they were fit for Church-fellowship and thereupon did propound their names in the Congregation with many such particulars so that you have dared to eeke out divine matters with your owne inventions not indeed with humane Prudence but against humane Prudence and reason as that instance in the way of your making Ministers by the people clearely shewes And I desire that you and others would consider what I say upon this occasion that this is so preposterous and irrationall a rule that had you indeed or should others observe it to practise nothing in matter of externall order unlesse you have a cleare resolution from Scripture in an example or direction you had never met together in a Church-way nor can any society or company of men meet to those ends of constituting a Church and Government and walking in the practise of it but that some things must be done not particularly mentioned in the Scriptures As for your calling humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation I judge that the want of it in Reformation hath still proved fatall as amongst the Anabaptists Brownists and in New-England also till humane prudence eeked out what was defective in the way of their gathering Churches at the first and till humane prudence punished by banishment and imprisonment under the name of disturbers of the civill peace many members of their Churches for Familisme Anabaptisme c. without which courses and others or the like kinde their Churches and Common-wealth had beene long agoâ—… ruined And I much wonder you stile humane prudence the fatall errour to Reformation and make Reformation of the Church and humane prudence so opposite especially you your selves knowing and expressing in the 28th page of your Apologie the calling of this Assembly of Divines The way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State I suppose you call it not the way of God as holding there is a cleare resolution from Scripture in any Apostolicall primitive patterne of the Churches erected by the Apostles of an Aâ—…embly so chosen by the Magistrates to draw up a govâ—…ment and direction in worship for so many Châ—…s many of which Churchâ—… have not so much as any one of their members there but onely a way of God according to generall rules and Prudence and so wisely assumed by the Parliament and yet I hope you and your party will not afterwards if the Assembly should determine against Independencie stile that the fatall errour to Reformation But how ever we gaine thus much from your being members of the Assembly voting in it and calling your selves by that name Members of the Assembly of Divines namely a cleare answer that humane prudence is not alwayes a fatall errour to Reformation and that a man needs not alwaies suspend his practise though he have not a cleare resolution of example or direction from the Primitive Churches witnesse the acceptance of your being chosen to the Assembly As to that Metaphoricall expression of yours the ground of your judging humane prudence so fatall to Reformation Least by sowing any peece of the old garment to the new you should make the rent worse I answer if that be not understood aright and soberly it hath been and will be the ground of great deformation in the Church and of running into errours on the right hand Thus the Anabaptists least they should sow any peece of the old garment unto the new renounce their Baptisme and the Brownists will have the materiall Churches pull'd downe and our Ministers and Congregations quite made null and all our Ministers and Congregations newly ordained and constituted The ground of which mistakes ariseth from not considering the difference between the gathering and planting a Church out of Iudaisme and Heathenisme and the purging and building up a Church corrupted and fallen As for that promise of encouragement made to such a suspension which you say in your publike Assemblies was for your comfort often mentioned you should have done well to have quoted the text and then I might have examined the place whether there had been a foundation for any such promise to a few persons in a particular Congregation withdrawing from the fellowship of other Churches and forbearing all things in matter of externall order though agreed upon by other Churches without a cleare resolution from Scripture example or direction that in so doing they should know more in the matter of order and government A second Principle we carried along with us in all our resolutions was not to make our present judgement and practise a binding law unto our selves for the future which we in like manner made continuall profession of upon all occasions We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of our conformity and therefore in a jealousie of our selves we kept this reserve which we made open and constant professions of to alter and retract though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a mis-understanding of the rule Which principle we wish were next to
matters of greatest moment and controversie we still choose to practise safely and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts or the most of all the Churches did acknowledge warrantable although they make additaments thereunto To this third great principle of yours I answer 1. To it generally as you lay it downe here generally and afterwards more particularly to the instances and particulars brought by you to make it good In this principle you labour to cast an odium upon all the reformed Churches who differ from you dealing by them in such a medium and way as the Protestants doe by the Papists wheras we alleadge against the Papists that the Protestant Religion is via tuta and what we practise they themselves cannot but allow only they hold and practise over and above as namely they adde to Christs Righteousnesse their own in the point of Justification to Christs intercession the intercession of the Virgin Mary and Saints to prayers unto God prayers to Angels and Saints to the Scriptures the traditions of the Church to our Sacraments confest by themselves five others c. So here you say that you chose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge other Churches did acknowledge warrantable but they make additaments and this you weave in all along in the particular instances under this head and it lyes upon them to prove what they adde over and above Now besides the great dissimilitude and difference of additaments in the things themselves between the Protestants and Papists and you and the reformed Churches the Papists additaments being in matters of faith and substance of worship but the matters excepted against by you being about outward government and order and that not so much about the things themselves the officers parts of worship but about the different manner and way of them as you acknowledge in your eighth pages and so you had no such cause to insinuate such matters against the reformed Churches yet consider that what you doe hold forth and take as your medium you have no good ground for which will appeare in three particulars and so your Apologie held forth unto the world is neither true nor just 1. I will demonstrate that in many matters of greatest moment and controversie you did not still choose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge that all sorts or most of the Churches did acknowledge warrantable 2. That the reformed Churches practised more safely then you and did not make additaments as you charge them 3. That you in many Church practises have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then in such circumstances wherein you tax the reformed Churches For the first of these three Take these three Instances for the present 1. It is a matter of great moment and controversie to forsake the publike Assemblies which you confesse are true Churches and the body of Christ and to set up separated assemblies without and against the leave of the Magistrate Ministers and Churches This is by the judgment of all the godly and learned Divines of note both in other Churches and in our own condemned as unlawfull by Calvin Beza Peter Martyr Zanchius Bullinger Iunius Pareus Morneus Arnesius Voetius c. with Whitakers Brightman Perkins Cartwright Parker Banes Hildersham Ball. c. I could fill a booke with the testimonies of these and many others and I doe challenge the Separatists of all sorts whether them of the head-forme the Anabaptists or of the middle-forme the old Brownists or the lowest-forme the Semi-Separatists to give me any precept or allowed example of such a practise out of the Primitive patterne shew it me and I will yeild the cause As for that place Rev. 18. 4. you professe against that in your 6 t page of having any thoughts of our Churches or Ministers to be Antichristian and Babilonish I could alledge many Scriptures against this practise Iude v. 19 c. The Apostles who were sent by Christ into the world to make Disciples and to bring men from Judaisme and Heathenisme to beleeve in Christ and to plant Churches of such yet they never taught nor practised to gather and separate some Christians from the rest one part of the Church from the other to goe constitute a purer Church neither in Corinth Philippi c. Although there were many corruptions and many loose persons But Paul taught and practised to censure and cast out evill persons but in case those who had power neglected their duty he never taught the godly to separate from the Lords Supper celebrated in the publike Assemblies much lesse for a few to withdraw from their Pastours and other brethren and to set up new Churches of themselves You are Schollers and well read in the Scriptures shew me but any such direction from the Apostles and I am yours 2. It is a matter of moment and controversie the right making and calling of the Ministers of the Gospell now all the reformed Churches according to the examples of Scripture hold Ministers are not to be made by the people alone and that the people have not power of Ordination and Imposition of hands but the Presbyters and yet you have practised the being cal'd and made Ministers by the people without the Imposition of hands of the preaching Presbyters 3. It is a matter of great moment and controversie whether private Christians who were never trained up in Arts and learning nor intended the Ministery may in the publike Congregation Prophesie which Prophesying as it is not practised by the Reformed Churches so by most of them it is not counted warrantable and yet you allowed it in your Churches to which I might adde more instances but that the book would swell into too great a volume To the second head it is evident the râ—…formed Churchs practised more safely as in declining your way in the last mentioned Instances in not permitting such as are Lay-men to preach or prophesie in not forsaking true Churches or true Ministery for the mixture of wicked men but rather casting out such who after admonition continue impenitent so in other practises practising as the Apostles receiving men into their fellowship without any such curious inquirie and long detention sending men from one to another and requiring such preparatives and conditions to Church-fellowship as your Churches have done The wayes and practises the reformed Churches walked in were the good old way knowne and beaten for some score of yeares in which so many great lights and godly people have walkt and so more safe then bie and new wayes that a few men but of yesterday have taken up and have not yet well aired much lesse digested And in the name of other reformed Churches France Holland Scotland I deny the things you charge them with to be additaments or to be properly so called for if the particulars instanced in by you will be found to have a footing in the Scriptures and practised
Churches allow particular Congregations such an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders within themselves and wherein not such a particular Narration would have carried in the face of it some ground for the defference of their practise and allowance might have served to have pointed out the differences between your way and theirs But secondly As you relate the way and discipline of the reformed Churches it sounds somewhat harsh and strange that their practise should be one way and their judgements another their practise to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbyterie of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government and yet in their judgements to allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation and entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within it selfe Doe they practise one way and allow another way or doe they hold both wayes the wayes of God or what is it you meane in this Narration of those Churches or can it be meant in the same sense and acception to practise one thing and yet allow another or will you make the lesser matters practised in their particular Churches by their own Elders to be the same with some cases wherein they allow particular Congregations an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves Now the latter namely in some cases cannot be meant for then this last part is no more then the first neither can your words of an entire compleate power of jurisdiction in the particular Congregations be meant of smaller matters but of the greatest matters in some cases You shall doe well in your reply to english these lines about the difference of the reformed Churches practises in greater matters and their different judgements in some cases and shew us in what sense they meane it and whether it can be properly and truly alledged for your case of entire and compleate power in your Congregations Thirdly This which you here relate of the reformed Churches practise and allowance is fallaciously set downe and for your own advantage meerely to make out this third principle that you still chose to practise safely namely what the reformed Churches allowed and acknowledged warrantable onely they superadded Presbyteriall combinations whereas the reformed Churches doe not as you well know in the case and question controverted between them and you allow particular Congregations in a Kingdome and nation conceiving the reformed Religion to have an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves what may be in some of their books in extraordinary or speciall cases where there is but one particular Congregation in a Countrey or the like that is nothing to the point in hand it being laid for a common ground by them all that every particular Church in a Nation or Kingdom is not to be left to it selfe but that there is a necessity of a common nationall government to preserve all the Churches in unity and peace And to cleare the reformed Churches of France Holland Scotland from what you say they allow I doe not find in their books of discipline and platformes of Church government by which we must judge of their judgements nor in their practises that they doe allow an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders of every Congregation alone either in the making or ordaining of Ministers or in deposing their Ministers or in drawing up a forme of doctrine worship and discipline for themselves they allow power of admonition suspension from the Lords Supper and of taking up lesser differences by the particular Eldership and if I forget not the Churches of France only practise excommunication by the Elders in particular Congregations without carrying it at first higher but then if we consider that in those Churches of France their Elderships goe upon certaine fixed rules in there excommunications laid down in their books of discipline who if they proceed otherwise are liable to censure themselves and their being appeales to Synods and Assemblies and all being carried in reference and dependance to Assemblies the case is very different now if the Churches of your way and communion in old England and in New would yeeld to have a government fixt and setled by Synods and Assemblies establisht also by the Magistrates upon which Rules and Orders they should proceed in the way of making Ministers and that such errors in doctrine and such evill manners ought to be the subject of excommunication and then agree upon appeales to Synods and Assemblies then there would be lesse dangâ—…r in such an entire and compleate power in particular Congregations To the second particular under this first head namely what some of the old non-conformists grant placing the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed subjâ—…cting them to Presbytâ—…riall and Provinciall Assemblies and that it could not be infallibly prooved that any of the Churches recorded in the new Testament were so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregatïon And that both the Ministers of the reformed Churches and our non-conformists all granted that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord I answer as followes For Mr Cartwright you not quoting which of his books you have reference to and so not knowing which to turne to to find out what you assert of him I shall not deny it but as for Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall which is the only booke I ever heard of wherein he handles these points he doth in the third question give the Ecclesiasticall power and the exercise of it to a united multitude of Presbyters in which booke howsoever as intending his booke against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to whom all Presbyters and Churches stand in subjection and subordination he pleads against them for the power of the particular Elders in the severall Congregations yet as against the reformed Churches practise namely of a Presbyteriall Church consisting of many particular Congregations and ruled by the Elders of severall Congregations combined he pleadeth not but expressely in answer made to those two objections from the Churches and Elders where there is a co-ordination and a communiâ—…y in government as in the Low Countries and at Géneva he grants the thing contended for against your Congregationall way even before miscarrying and shewes thâ—… great difference between the Diocesan government and the Presbyteriall in severall particulars and answers your objections which you commonly make of a forraigne extrinsicall power And for your better satisfaction reade and compare together the passages in these pages of Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall page 21 page 11. What is meant by a Diocesan Church and in the 12th page two first conclusions agreed in and in the 16th page And for the non-conformists in their writings against the Episcopall government and Diocesan Churches though they put the Bishops their adversaries all they could to it to make them proove
infallibly and necessarily a particular Church to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation yet they never intended it as against the reformed Churches Now you know the saying Authoris aliud agentis parva est authâ—…ritas But shew us where ever the old non-conformists as against the reformed Churches held so It will appeare by Gerson Bucerus and by the practise of the reformed Churches in Geneva and Holland for which Mr Robinson so objects against them in his Apologie that though they were against the government of Bishops and Diocesan Churches that is of a head Church over many Congregations united to it yet not of a particular Church of such a City consisting of many particular Congregations And as for that you take for granted by all that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation it is denied you For some Divines as Danaeus and Cartwright as I remember hold it not necessary for every small Congregation in villages but for Cities and more populous places to which the lesser villages being conjoyned have the benefit and support of all the Elders and Ministers in the exercising of government As for that you say Others of them calling the combination of Churches Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised that others was Mr Parker who in his Politia Ecclesiastica gives us this distinction and was the first who brought it up as ever I read of who differing from Mr Baynes and other non-conformists and most Divines of the reformed Churches in the subject of the power of the keyes giving it to the body of the Church agreeing therein too much with you no wonder he called particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae But as he was mistaken in the first receptacle and subject of the power of the keyes so he might be in his distinction of Ecclesiae primae and ortae For the first Churches namely that of Ierusalem Rome Ephesus with others were not particular Congregations but Churches consisting of many Congregations severall meeting places some preaching in one place and others in other places but governed by the Elders in common which City Churches were the first Churches still first planted by the Apostles and particular Congregations in villages were Ecclesiae ortae the City Churches in this sence being the mothers and the particular Congregations rather the daughters the full proofe and demonstration whereof I referre to a tractate I intend about the nature of the visible Church But by what I have answered upon this head the Reader may observe there is not all granted which you tooke for granted from the Reformed Churches and the Non-conformists and what is yeelded slowes from another spring and is upon another ground writing against Diocesan Bishops quite another controversie but otherwise even when Non-conformists have come to write against the separation and upon the nature of a visible Church as Mr Ball a they hold the contrary And for learned men of other Churches even when they writ against Episcopacie yet they were farre from holding that a particular visible Church was only a particular Congregation as Gersom Bucerus in his answer to D â— Downham A particular Church is any companie of beleevers conjoyned in the observation of holy ordinances and united to one Presbyterie keeping their meetings in one or more places For the number of Parishes in which they meet is a thing accidentall being nothing at all to the essence of a particular Church And even the Non-conformists you speake of as it appeares by the wary expressions your selves use of them namely infallibly and necessarily doe even give the cause For that is as you imply the Non-conformists in their answers could not denie but probably the number of beleevers were so numerous as to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first timâ—…s though not infallibly and rationally though not necessarily Now in points of externall order and government which depend upon the story and circumstances of time and place how many things are there practised but of presumption though not of certainty and though they cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved so as to stop all mouthes and all that the wit of man can possibly finde out yet if the things asserted can be but probably proved upon better reasons then the contrary we may encline to that as to the safer part How many practises and tenents have you in your Church-way that cannot be infallibly and necessarily proved but stronger answers may be and are given to the reasons you bring for them then any the Non-conformists could give to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem and yet you hold to your principles for all that and it is a rule hath been pleaded by some of you that in things of that nature where the Scripture is not expresse but holds them out most probably though not infallibly and necessarily yet we ought to encline to that As for Mr Baynes answer though directed against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to that instance of the Church of Ierusalem it is no whit satisfactorie nor concluding to any man who is of another judgement as the Reader may reade in the 15. and 16. page of the Dioces Tryall To the 3d particular under the first head namely what you allow and grant about a Church and the Government that you could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one Citie at the first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their owne Elders that also preached to them and that you could not but judge it a safe and an allowed way to retaine the government of your severall Congregations for matter of discipline within themselves to be exercised by their owne Elders c. In way of answer I must first complaine of your old fault the slippery and uncertaine expressions used in the relation of what you owne and allow about a Church in those phrases the first Churches ordinarily and at first I demand the reason of you why you put in ordinarily and at first was it not because you fore-saw the Church of Ierusalem and some few others recorded in the New Testament though not in the first Chapter of the Acts and at the beginning yet would at last by the 8. of the Acts and Acts 21. amount to more then could meet in one Congregation and therefore you exprest it so Is this faire dealing or what other reason can you give for using such doubtfull expressions the question is not betweene you and us whether all the Churches and most of the Churches or whether at first and in the beginning of them they consisted of no more in one City then to make up one Congregation but whether the Scriptures in the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles be it first or last sooner or later gives any patterne or example of
those Congregations in all weighty matters and greater cases that fall out those precepts of obey your Elders and them that are over you reach to all the Elders as well as to those that particularly and ordinarily preach to them and however it is true such places are especially understood of them yet not of them only and alone as excluding others as your argument carried it but including others who are over them too And to answer you by your own instance given of servants obey your own governours as by vertue of that text particular servants are to obey their own Masters so by the same text each particular servant and all of them together of such a Company and Hall in the things and rules of their calling for the publike good of that Societie they are to obey and be subject to the whole Company namely the particular masters of other servants as to their own masters yea and to submit to the common Orders and good Rules of such a Hall and Corporation though their particular Masters doe not vote for but against them 3. Those Rulers who are of the Presbytery are not forraigne nor extrinsicall to the Congregations but intrinsicall and naturall as well as their particular Elders so that another without themselves doth not beare rule over them but all of them together by common consent doe rule every one which is a most mild and free forme of Church government for the proofe of which I shall not enlarge but referre you for satisfaction to what is said to this point both by the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland and by some Churches from beyond the seas in their Letters upon occasion of your Apologie 4. It is a fallacious way of reasoning from the oeconomicall relations and government of husbands over wives and fathers over children and masters over servants and their subjection and obedience to husbands c. unto the Ecclesiasticall and Politicall because it is not to speake ad idem for in each of these the way of government is different for instance in those oeconomicall relations a woman can have but one husband one man can be but her husband and one man a father and the wife and child cannot Pelinquish them diâ—…avow them though very bad nor deny those duties they owe them in those relations though censured by the Church but they are to obey them which yet holds not in the members of a particular Congregation to Elders and Ministers that are unworthy and excommunicated that the members must be subject to them The Royalists that argue so from that subjection and obedience which children owe their fathers to subjects subjection and obedience to Princes and the Hierarchicall men that argue from what children owe to natural parents though wicked and ungodly to what the people owe to wicked ministers are answered at large and you know what Mr Robinson and many of your way say to that Now the same will serve to answer your comparisons that the places hold not alike between the people and the Elders and the wives and their husbands Mr Baynes answers in the last page of his Diocesans Tryall that which is objected touching Pastors and Fathers That the similitude holds not in all things parents and sheapheards are absolutely parents and sheapheards be they good or evill but spirituall parents are no longer so then they doe accordingly behave themselves 5. The very instances you give of wives obey your own husbands and servants your own governours doth not therefore only tye them to civill subjection and obedience to husbands and Masters exempting them from subjection to any others but they are subject to the Magistrates in the Common-wealth and to common-Lawes notwithstanding so neither doth the Scriptures obey your Elders c. supposing the full latitude of those Scriptures were of the Elders of particular Congregations forbid or exempt men from that Ecclesiasticall subjection and obedience which concernes them as they stand in relation to the community To the third Reason hinted for your selves and against the reformed Churches that the Elders of other Congregations should have power and rule over Churches which they doe not teach and feed ordinarily by vertue of those forementioned precepts was to you a question c. I answer Suppose three or foure Congregations in one great Towne should have Ministers in common to teach and feed them ordinarily as in Holland would you in such a case yeeld to a Presbyteriall combination if you say you would then the case is determined for us and thus I judge it was in the Acts of the Apostles in Primitive Churches but if you answer you would not yeeld to such a classicall government then I reply 't is not for want of such Ministers teaching you and feeding ordinarily that you will not obey but upon some other ground and then this argument is lost Secondly I answer your ruling Elders doe not feed nor teach you ordinarily but only governe you and yet by vertue of those forementioned precepts you obey them and are subject to them so that this is no good argument against the lawfulnesse of having power and authority over those whom men teach not ordinarily for then what becomes of the Ruling Elders in the Church who are neither Pastors nor Teachers To the fourth Reason drawn from Corporations who have the power and priviledge of life and death within themselves which kind of power you would have I answer you cannot frame a good argunment from Corporations and civill power to bodies Ecclesiasticall and spirituall power and I might give you the many differences alledged by your selves between civill power and Ecclesiasticall and the different manner of dispensation but I must not enlarge here only referre you for this to Mr Robinson Mr Burroughs and Dr Ames 2. Corporations goe according to the Lawes of the Land and to their Charters agreed upon and made in Parliaments they make not themselves a Corporation nor goe not according to private rules and orders to passe sentence of death c. but are ruled though they have Officers as Major and Aldermen by the Laws of the Land and so going they may more safely have a power within themselves but your particular Congregations set up your selves without leave of Magistrates or Ministers not proceeding upon common rules of government in sentences of Excommunication c. agreed by Synods but only upon your own wills and private rules which you have fancied are laid down in Scripture 3. Corporations though they judge their members and passe sentence of life and death within themselves yet sometimes nay often in greater cases and offences their inhabitants are tried and sentences passed upon them in other Courts of Justice and that when they would proceed against them yet the matter is carried higher to be tried If you would grant this in the Corporations to your Congregations that Assemblies and Synods might judge and passe sentence upon your members as oft
and restoring Mr Ward agreed upon was it not upon the newes of the Parliament and the probability of the revolution of things And I propound this question because Mr Bâ—…rroughs who came in M. Wards place after his deposition came backe to England but at the beginning of the Parliament and till he came or was resolved to come it is not probable M. Ward was restored and if so that it was done when all was like to breake up and they to come fâ—… England may we not suspect it was done for an instance to vindicate your way with and to serve your turne as in this Apologie rather then from any necessitie of righting a person â—…jured or correcting a Church offending 5. Why did not the Church of Arnheim take offence as well at M. Sympsons Church and at his schisme in setting up another Church and at all that bitternesse evill speaking betweene those two Churches the ground indeed and foundation of that unhappy businesse about M. Ward and of all the evill committed therein and accordingly have required M. Sympsons Church to have submitted but here is not a hint of this in all the relation of your practise I have a letter out of Holland by me that concerning this businesse writes thus That though M. Sympson with sâ—…me fâ—…w morâ—… râ—…t themselves from M. Bridges Church to the great offence thereof yet M. Goodwin and his Associates when they came to heare the businesse about M. Ward never questioned that scandall I meane of their schisme from the same Church Now if it were so was not this a partiall remedie not reaching to all the offence noâ—… to the bottome of it why did you not summon both these Churches in the matter of scandall and difference to submit as well as one of the Churches will not your principles serve in difference betweene Churches as for difference in one Church or was it that there was no complaint of neither side or was it because you are tender of questioning the multiplication of Churches though by seperation and schiâ—…me Or what was the reason you questioned not that 6. Whether were the other Churches of our Nation or any of them who could not but be offended as them of Amsterdam Hague Utrich Leyden Delph cal'd in by Arnheim or by the Church at Roterdam to joyne in the hearing trying of that businesse and deposing Witnesses or did they send Messengers or was it onely agitated by two Ministers â—…nd two Messengers of tâ—… Church of Arnheim one Church onely 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 one to one both equall and whether there can be the like majesty and solemnity of a meeting where they are equall â—…ay an inferiority in as much as a representative Church consisting of foure is below a Church represented as in a Presbyteriall assâ—…bly I have a Letter from Holland by me wherein a godly Ministâ—…r writes thus I was desired by Mr Ward to be present at that meeting but when the time came neither I nor any other English Ministers but they of Arnheim were callâ—…d 7. To what or to how much did your practise who were the Church offended amount unto upon Mr Bridges Church submission and your full hearing and finding both sides to be in an errour did you injoyne and draw up an order that the Church offending should publikely acknowledge their sinfâ—… abeâ—…ation before you and the commers of all sorts and restore their Minister againe and that they should keep a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves for their sinfull carriage and that the Minister deposed should acknowledge to the Church wherein he had likewise sinned or did you leave them to themselves upon your finding the offence to doe what they thought fitting both Church and Minister as being against your principles for one Church to decree and impose any thing upon another and so they â—…ooke up this way voluntarily would you would speake out and once tell us plainely what you hold and what you woâ—…ld 〈◊〉 that so the Reader might judge of the effectualnessâ—… of your 〈◊〉 8. I aske of you whether Mr Bridge with the offending Church at Rotterdam did sit as Judges with them oâ—… 〈◊〉 in their own cause to examine depose c. or else 〈◊〉 by aâ—… delinquents to be charged tried c. 9. I deâ—…e to know of you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he was râ—…stored did as formely officiate in that Church and how long and whether Mr Bridge and he continued there as fellow Ministers and whether both between them two and between the Church and Mr Ward there was that mutuall carriage as before and ought to be between fellow Ministers and Ministers and people 10. How can a Church representative be a sufficient and allowed remedy to take up great offences in a Church at a great distance and whether this implies not an implicit faith in the represented to let the representers upon hearing put a finall determination and conclusion to great offences and differences without returning back the businesse to the Church represented or so much as ever acquainting them with the businesse before all was ended as was in this particular case and whether Mr Robinsâ—…s arguments against the Presbyterians â—…bout the power of their Elders be not strong against your principles and practises here related and what ground is there from tâ—…e Scripture that foure men of another Church should have power to call unto and insist upon a judiciarie charge against them who were greater then themselves namely against a whole Church consisting of officerâ—… and people 11. Suppose the Church of Arâ—…m who sent two Ministerâ—… and two Gentlemen â—…s messengers of their Church upon their returne back to the Church and giving an account of all the proceedings and issue of that businesse had disliked the determinations and judged some of the proceedings unjust otherâ—… unsatisfactory and not according to the rules of the word as the Church of 〈◊〉 might well have done there being just ground for it as I will shew in the second particular under the next head What must have been done in this case must the messengers themselves have been now questioned by the Church for managing matters no better or must the sentences agreed upon both for the Church and Mr Ward be reversed or must other messengers be sent to heare matters againe and to change or adde what was amisse and what if the Church would not alter that which upon so full a hearing and triall was agreed upon now I aske of you and appeale to the Reader considering that the Church or Churches themselves may probably and it cannot but be expected 〈◊〉 and vary in their judgements from their messengers about the determination of offences and differences whether this be a likely meanes and sufficient remedy to end all strifed or rather will not be as the beginning of new strife and an occasion of endlesse contentions 12. In this way of submission of Churches and your practises upon occasion of offences and
word to hinder the deposing of Mr Ward and so to have prevented so great a scandall and offence as this was To the fifth and last generall head the comparison you make between the effectualnesse and powerfulnesse of your way of submission and non-communion and that of the Presbyterians to awe and preserve Churches and Elders in their duties and to reduce Churches miscarrying where you make the sâ—…ales fall on your side rather I answer Besides some considerable things already hinted under some of the former heads especially under the fourth head which doe shew a wide difference of the effectualnesse and successe which the Presbyterian principles and way hold out over your Congregationall thâ—…e are many other to 〈◊〉 the sâ—…les which I shall now speake of according as 't is laid downe here by you in the 17 18 and 19 pages 1. That you may render your way the more specious and probable you beg the question and take for granted things denied supposing that also which never hath fallen out in the reformed Churches and you speake but to a part of the way and remedie namely excommunication anâ—… from all these false premises you make your conclusion You lay downe your way of submission and non-communion 〈◊〉 that â—…ch is the 〈◊〉 and way of Christ and to be strictly enjoyned by Christ â—…d that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are â—…ly offended to denounce such a sentence of non-communion which is a meere device of your own brains and sound out to give a colourable answer to that common and 〈◊〉 reason against the Church-way 〈◊〉 you make that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Presbyteries to be an excommunicating of whole Churches and â—…s delivering of whole Churches and their Eldere offending unto Saâ—…n which is a scandalous charge laid to tho Presbyterian government and never yet was â—…rd of in any of the reformed Churches for the space now of a hundred yeares past You lay you give more to the Magistrates power then the principle of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld whereas in some things I shall show the contrary and in other things you may out of policie at this time give more then the Scriptures allow You speake only of excommunication a part of their way whereas in combined classicall government there are many other meanes and ways from first to last to preserve and reduce from errors and offences 2. The comparison made by you between the Presbyterians and Independents stands in two things First In the Ecclesiasticall proceedings and power Secondly In the civill Magistrates power 1. For the Ecclesiasticall you make that principle of submission of Churches that miscarry and that of non-communion as effectuall as excommunication which supposing they were as I shall shew they are not yet 't is a fallacious reasoning by comparing the whole with a part for a whole of one kind may be better and more excellent then some part of another kind and yet not comparable to the whole now there are many things in Presbyteriall government besides excommunication excellent to preserve and keep the Churches Their reformation and constitution being setled by Synods and Assemblies their Ministers being ordained by Presbyteries and classes their Doctrine worship government and discipline upon serious debate and by common content drawn up then rules being fixt known and certaine their classicall meetings frequent and constant with higher Assemblies for appeales their number and abilities great their remedies and censures more solemne and more in number as deposition suspension c. all which are wanting in the Church way as I could shew at large but that this answer would be too great a volume But to come to particulars the Presbyterian is more effectuall then your Independent way 1. Because it doth prevent and preserve from those many errours divisions evils which fall in your way as is evident by experience and is founded upon good reason will fall out now how much better and more effectuall a way 't is to play the fore-game then the after-game all men know 't is better to prevent the plague and taking in poyson then to expell it government is for prevention as well as recovering if your way were as effectuall to compose differences and reduce Churches yet not so to prevent which is one of the great ends of Church government 2. Your way wraps in whole Churches in sin and guilt and you have no remedy but it must come to non-communion of whole Churches but in Presbyteriall 't is not so no example being extant among them of excommunicating whole Churches so that if an errour take one or two they are presently dealt with and the errour spreads not to a whole Church 3. In the Presbyteriall way the persons offending and sinning in Congregations are proceeded with and punished every man beares his own sin but the innocent persons suffer not but here in the way of non-communion some who are good in the Church suffer also many wayes and here is no difference made by you but all involved in the same condition 4. In your way as if all sins were equall and all offenders alike all are punished with the same sentence of non-communion but 't is not so in the Presbyteriall way 5. Your submissions and meetings are accidentall uncertaine free and at choice they may be and may not be there are many wayes to evade and put them off whereas the combinations and consociations of Churches are fixed set certaine Amongst your Churches in Holland in three or foure yeares there was but one act of submission and one meeting which is here related In that difference between those two Churches at Rotterdam there was no submission but each Church blew the trumpet of defiance against each other and so about the differences at Arnheim which the Church could not end in so long a time no Church interposed but in the classicall government there is such a subordination and dependencie such stated and fixed meetings that if men should escape one they do not all now in government and order there is a materiall difference between what men may doe or not doe and what they have tied themselves unto and must stand to In matters of civill difference referred to Arbitratours 't is one thing to submit to hearing and to counsell upon it and another thing to be bound to stand to the determination There are many will doe justly and performe such trusts whilest bound who left at liberty will doe just nothing now in your submission of Churches though you submit to a hearing yet you doe not submit to their determinations unlesse it like you you doe not submit to doe what they enjoyne but you will order your selves according to their counsell as you see occasion now men being partiall in their own cause and still their own judges what a remedie is this 't is one thing when men know they are at liberty and may doe or not doe as they see good and another
only and the highest powers can they alwayes heare or attend unto through the many great businesses of State affaires all the differences scandals schismes that both in particular Churches and betweene Churches will fall out in a Kingdome or Nation in this way of non-communion and protestation against one another especially in Independent Churches where people make Churches and Ministers in that way they doe and have no fixed rules nor certaine way I warrant the supreame Magistrate and higher Powers Kings and Parliaments shall have something to doe to back the sentence of non-communion and to heare all causes and differences But if you understand the inferiors also Majors Bailiffs c. I represent it to you what fit judges most of them are to judge and determine of such difficult Ecclesiasticall causes in heresies schismes scandals c. which fall out amongst the Ministers of Churches and between Churches themselves Againe If you understand the Magistrate indefinitely and obsolutely any Magistrate though Heathen Popish Arrian as Mr Robinson doth in his Apologie and I find it in your manuscripts and principles that you take it so judge then in your selves if the Church hath not remedies among themselves how fit are they who understand not Christian religion nor the doctrines according to godlinesse to judge of the great differences between Churches and to assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches if the Apostle Paul reproved the Corinthians so in 1 Cor. 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. for cariying matters from the Church even the smallest matters the things that pertained to this life unto unbeleevers how would he blame the carrying of things spirituall and Ecclesiasticall unto Heathen from the Ministers of the Church or doe you understand that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature to appeale unto c. then there must be certaine Laws and rules agreed upon as for particular Churches so between the Churches according to which they must proceed to back the sentence of non-communion and protestation c. which yet you practise not Now the many inconveniences that would come of such Courts you may easily fore-see so that this is not like to be an effectuall remedy 6. What shall be done in case there be no Magistrates at all to take any notice in matters of Religion and Church government but leave Churches to themselves in that as it was with you in Holland there were no Magistrates medled with the government and order of your Churches nor none to have recourse unto or to backe the sentence of Non-communion you being in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authoritie either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced you what shall in this case supply the defect of Excommunication and of an Ecclesiasticall authoritative power Hath not the wisdome of Christ provided remedies in the Church for all the internall necessities of the Church and constituted it a perfect bodie within it selfe 7. Whether can it be rationally and probably thought that in an ordinary way the having recourse unto the Magistrate though orthodox and the submitting to his particular cognizance and examination of such causes with his backing the sentence of Non-communion in Ecclesiasticall causes in cases of sinnes errours differences that arise in Churches should be as effectuall and sufficient a remedie as the way of Classes and Synods and that the Magistrates interposing their authoritie and power of another nature will be as good as the Authoritative Presbyteriall Governement in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now that 't is not probable it should be or that it should serve in stead of Synods and Classes take these probable and rationall grounds 1. All wanton wits and erroneous spirits all your Sectaries and Novelists are rather for this way then for Synods and Classes though most of them would have neither to meddle at all in matters of Religion as the Socinians Anabaptists c. Thus the Arminians were against Classes and Synods and all for the power of Magistrates and it was their chiefe Engine by which in those sad daies of the Netherlands they encreased their partie and came to such a height Sectaries hope that if they can decline the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they sha'l what by flatterie and what by delay through other great businesses of State and what by sophismes and fallacies and what from principles of policie in many States-men and what by friends c. effect that which they have no hopes at all by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they know the Presbyteries and Synods are able to discover their fallacies answer their arguments will mind those businesses wholly are not to be wrought upon by State principles c. Now if in experience and reason this way were as powerfull to reduce a Church or Churches from schisme and heresie they would never be so much for this way rather then Presbyterie 2. Naturall reason dictates that they are best able and fittest to judge and resolve of things who doe above others give themselves to the studie and profession of those things as Physitians can best judge of wholesome meats and diseases and Lawyers of the lawes and differences arising in them a Counsell of Warre of difficult cases and points in warre And therefore in things that belong to the spirituall good of the soule and the Church the Ministers of the Church are most likely to resolve and to remedie things Can it ordinarily be expected that the Magistrate should in matter of doctrine and opinion in matters of schisme and in matters of worthinesse and abilities of Ministers and in many cases that arise be able to judge and determine matters as the Ministers and Pastours of the Church 3. Those who have most time and leisure to attend a worke and businesse to sift into it to heare all that can be said and can mind it they being able and understanding are likeliest to determine best and bring things to a good end we see in experience that able and honest men through multitudes of businesse delay long slubber over businesses and cannot doe things so effectually as they ought and seldome prove good Arbitratours in difficult intricate cases Now Magistrates through many great and necessarie businesses of State having large dominions cannot so well attend as the Classes and Synods to heare and examine all the differences scandals schismes c. that doe and may arise both in Churches and betweene Churches especially as would fall out in the Independent way and particularly in this way of submission Non-communion and mutuall Protestation but matters would be delayed and neglected or escape wholly or be hudled up 4. To these I might adde as followes that the Magistrate through his just greatnesse would not know the spirits and dispositions of Ministers people nor of other matters so well as the Ministers who live among them and converse with one another frequently neither would there be that easinesse of accesse to the Magistrates and great persons as
to their Ministers and Pastours with other such like 8. But in Ecclesiasticall matters and differences upon the Magistrates interposing his power what is it you will submit unto and what will you allow him to doe And what is that power you will give him in backing the sentence of Non-communion upon his judgement of the cause and how farre and in what will you obey him that so we may understand how this Civill power is intended by you for a remedie and helpe in Churches and betweene Churches For instance will you submit not to gather Churches nor set up Assemblies withoâ—…â—…is leave and upon complaints of the many mischiefes and differences occasioned thereupon will you upon his hearing both sides and judging that those who are gathered shall be dissolved dissolve them and not meet in those wayes any more Will you upon some members complaining to the Magistrate of some Minister or Ministers in their Church for preaching erroneous and unprofitable doctrine meere novelties subtilties and the Magistrate upon particular cognizance and examination of such causes judging that he shall preach no more will the Minister forbeare upon it or the Church to heare him in case the Minister would not yeeld will the Church now goe chuse a new and Orthodox Minister upon it or in case a member or more be unjustly excommunicated and they complaine to the Magistrate who calling the Church to account and hearing both sides shall judge on the Complaiants side and now order the Church to absolve him and order them to confesse their sinne publikely and appoint them to keepe a day of humiliation for it and order them to give him such a summe of mony for the wrong trouble and losse of his time in following the businesse against them will the Church now submit to doe all this yea or no What say you to these and the like cases Now I aske you this in the close because you pretend a great deale of submission to the Magistrate and to give him much power which though you did grant yet for the many reasons and grounds alreadie specified this would not countervaile the way of the Presbyterians in their spirituall censures by Presbyters and Synods whether you clearely and plainly allow this to the Magistrate because I finde in Manuscripts and heare that in Sermons by men of your Church-way the contrarie is publikely preacht and held as for example in that Treatise about a Church which goes under one of your names there is this passage with more to that purpose The Saints need not expect their power or leave for to gather together so as without it such a combination is unlawfull nor should they forbeare it out of conscience of the Magistrates prohibition indeed if the Magistrate should force or compell them to forbeare or persecute them they may forbeare actuall assembling Act. 8. 1. not because the Magistrate forbids it but in mercie to themselves And indeed about a Church Christian Magistrates have no more power then Heathen Magistrates had So that this is spoken by you where Magistrates are Christian and where Churches are already setled And adde to this that M. S. in his Reply in defence of your Apologie is against coercive and coactive power in matters of Religion and that you all hold a toleration and that the Magistrates ought not to hinder men or punish them for the matter of their consciences how then notwithstanding all your discourse of the power of the Magistrate which added to Non-communion will be an effectuall meanes to releeve persons injured to reduce Churches and persons going in schisme and errours shall persons injured be remedied or Churches and persons reduced For suppose the persons or Churches that now fall into such errours and schismes will pretend nay 't is so really that they in their conscience hold errours for truths and thereupon with-draw from such Churches to others nay suppose those who now receive these new truths should cast out of their fellowship and excommunicate some for holding otherwise as for instance a Church falling into Antinomianisme should censure some of their members that remain orthodox for legal Christians and for being enemies to free-grace and should judge themselves bound to doe so in these and such like cases what remedie is there for miscarrying Churches by all the power of the Magistrate you pretend to give to him But this is brought in here by you and given to him to put of that strong argument against your way and that you may have something for present to blind the eyes and stop the mouths of many that looke no further that it may serve your turne at such a straight whereas upon other principles you denie the Magistrate this when it shall come to be a matter of conscience And now by all the severall particulars under this fifth head the understanding Reader may observe that not only in many respects your non-Communion and Magistrates power are not a remedie comparable to the Presbyterian way not proper nor to the nature of the offences and things in question a way in stead of bringing things to an end redressing and mending matters amisse that will be but the beginning of more strife and making more differences and evils then either it sindes or can heale the mother and nurse of Confusions Disorders and endlesse contentions but also that all the power here pretended to be given to the Magistrate upon examination is no such matter nor will not amount to make good the ends propounded whereas the Presbyteriall Government here scandalized as either wholly inconsistent with this forme of Civill Government or else not giving it its due will be found by its principles not only to have powerfull spirituall remedies for all spirituall evils of the Church but will be found in many respects to make use of and to give honour and power to the Civill Magistrate as a nursing Father from first to last even in the ordinary way of the Order and Government of the Church beyond you besides what they give more in extraordinary cases in a Church miserably corrupted disordered c. Of which the Reader may read at large in Apollonius who was a great Presbyterian cap. 2. And so learned Zanchius in his Tractate de Magistratis shewes 't is in the power of the Magistrate not to suffer Heretickes nor erroneous persons to preach and he gives him coactive punitive power to cut them off Beza a great Presbyterian in his Epistles and other writings in matters of Religion doth not exclude the Magistrate but gives him that power in some things which you deny but besides that power they give the Magistrate they stand for as needfull in the Church Classes and Synods for the Government of it Zanchy shewes that discipline cannot take place where the Ministers never meet together the meâ—…ting of Ministers and Ecclesiasticall Synods we judge most necessary As no Politie Common-wealth or Kingdome can consist without their meetings Senates and Councels
so there is need of Synods for the governing of the Church and for the preventing of herâ—…fies In a word all things are loose in independent Government every one is left and may take liberty without controule to doe what is good in their owne eyes if they like not any Church whereof they are members they may goe to another nay a few in a Church disliking that Church may goe make a Church themselves and make Ministers and hold what they will as Mr Sympson did with some few more and since some have rent from Mr Sympsons Church as he from Mr Bridge The rules they goe by are loose nothing being fixed nor certaine among them and there can be no setlednesse of mind nor consistence of Principles in that way simple and well meaning people according to their Principles must be drawn till they come to that to hold that there are no true Churches nor Ministers at all yet upon the earth which principle begins to take and spread already amongst many Independents In a word that Liberty and loosenesse which is from first to last in Independent Government holding no authoritative Ecclesiasticall power out of the particular Congregation to remedie or prevent any matter and that which is in the particular Congregation being on many Grounds and Principles of theirs so slight and weake as the only subject of Excommunication being no other kind of sins then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. as that two or three Saints or now of late six or seven may with-draw from Churches defective and impure and make Churches and chuse all officers c. with other like so that what need they care then for that Church of which they are members though cast out seeing they can make new and have all to their owne minde be chiefe there is a dangerous temptation even to sober men to make them presume to broach that practise that which else they would never have done But in the Order and Government of the Reformed Churches there is consistence unitie and strength as is evident by a hundred yeares visible experience of Gods blessing from heaven upon them there is also a certainty and fixednesse of rules agreed on both for particular congregations for Classes and Synods there is an awing and preserving of officers and people in their bounds and keeping them from running out to errours c. there being no man be he never so able or subtill that can escape calling to account and censure Magistrates and Ministers have their power in the Church without usurpation and confusion and to conclude in the words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were Magistrates and civill power acquainted with this order and government of the Church they would finde their authoritie increased their worke more easie and their places more comfortable thereby And now having given an answer to that part of your Apologie under that instance of the government and discipline of the Churches by speaking fully of those five heads unto which I referre all your discourse about the government and discipline of the Churches beginning in pag. 12. and ending in the 21. I will for a close speake something to some of your passages contained in this part of your Narration which could not so well be taken in nor so properly animadverted upon under those five heads without the Readers being much confounded and entangled 1. To that passage p. 14. We had for the most part of the time we were abroad three Elders at least in each congregation whom we were subject to I aske if the Churches were subject to the Elders you many times having but three and sometimes but two nay one Elder the government of your Churches then was either Monarchicall Government or Oligarchicall at best And if the Churches were subject to the Elders who were the Elders subject to the Elders then were under no subjection but if the Churches were subject to the Elders and not the Elders to the Churches riddle me what is the meaning of all those phrases the Church still did so and so not the Elders the Church at Roterdam deposed M. Ward and not M. Bridge and an Elder or two and so M. Nye and M. Goodwin the Ministers were sent by the Church and that Church which had offended confessed their sin and restored their Minister to his place againe which sure was not M. Bridge and a lay-Elder or two 2. To those passages of Churches offended calling to an account Churches offending proceeding to full and open tryals and examinations to Iudiciarie charges and deposition of witnesses openly before all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where Authority about them enjoyns it and of a particular Church being censurable by neighbour Churches about them I desire to put this disjunctive proposition Either this power of calling to an account examining deposing witnesses censuring them c. are acts of ruling and government and in the Churches challenged acts of subjection or they are not if you grant they be acts of rule and government then there is an authoritative power which Churches have out of their Churches and you grant it in such acts at least though not in that of excommunication But whether if it be so in these that of excommunication will not follow let it be considered for either the censure of excommunication is not founded upon the common grounds on which callings to account and some censures are or else there is some proper peculiar grounds in the nature of that ordinance or in the Scripture forbidding that though allowing others neither of which will be found to have a foundation in Scripture and if so why then doe you make all this adoe of entire full compleate power within your selves and are against the combination of Churches in Classes and Presbyteries to doe that constantly certainely and presently upon scandals that fall out in a Church which you doe at best but at uncertainties and after a long time when the remedy may come too late a yeare or two afterwards But if you answer these are no acts of government and rule in this Church or Churches but meerely acts of consultation advice perswasion and that when the Churches offended have heard all they only give their counsell and advice and commend it to them but it is in their liberty to doe or not to doe for though they submit to a hearing and open triall by vertue of the principle of submission yet they submitted not to stand to the determination and agreement of that Church or Churches I answer if you meane no more then the bare power of counsell and advice in all this and no power of Authoritative determination and decision this is no more nor you give no more to the Churches offended then to particular Christians who may counsell them in such cases And why then doe you hold out such words and your practise of a full and
you may call it exile because you did flie out of your owne Country though none persecuted you to shun persecution before it came as foreseeing possibility of danger yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles for you were rich Exiles who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance as to be able some of you to spend 200 or 300. lb. per annum and to doe other expensive acts which for present I forbeare to name And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place maintenance friends but how they can be called poore Exiles that enioy wives children friends full and liberall maintenance annually liberty of callings with all pleasures and delights as much or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage and accomodatons in these kinds goe with their families into another Countrey can these be called Exiles Suppose a Minister who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established or wanting a liberall maintenance or fearing the warre should goe over to Roterdam Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there where he shall have better meanes can this Minister be stiled a poore exile Now I leave you and the Readers to make application As for those words Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land I know God permitted it and ordered it but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it for the dividing of the godly party here and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us and Brethren let me speake sadly to you not out of passion but out of long and serious deliberation it had been good for you and for us that you had continued exiles still and that neither you five nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in mercie till the Church and government had been setled I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are As for that Parenthesis the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land I will not gaine-say it onely let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own land again in peace and safety to our persons and the other when we had least dependencie on this kingdome or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace Now take away faith hope endeavors will much cease this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land for my part I had much hope of the kingdom when things were at worst and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction and of the revolution of the times God was pleased so to support my spirit that I expected and waited as men doe for the light of the morning when that every day God would arise and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly learned brethren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from yours in some things that was no marvell I wonder you could expect it otherwise being but a few young men of yesterday and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches But I must tell you you found not onely the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation but the judgement of them all who were in publike imployment and of any great account to differ from yours not onely in some things but even in your whole Church way how ever that since by your presence and your politick way of working and the strong streame of popular applause running that way some few Ministers uncertaine heady inconstant wanton-witted men are since come off to your way but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves I answer they may doe so and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect though not of the first Reformation as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there whose name I have been entreated to conceale least it might much prejudice him there but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge that in your sence in the things excepted against by you the Reformed Churches particularly that of Scotland need not a further Reformation namely to come to your principles of Democracie Independencie Libertinisme and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame And as to that that it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie they might not be fully perfect the first day I answer they never thought so neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day but the reformed Churches particularly the French-Churches had many Synods Assemblies and Colloquies where points of government and order have been further debated cleared and Canons added and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government which is the perfection spoken of here by you above twenty yeares Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France Scotland and Holland have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them and against their owne way and that both of old
in as much as lay in you did not you so act for your owne opinions and Church way that you would have hazarded the Kingdome Religion and all rather then the losse of your Independencie which you knew the Scots were so averse unto 7. Whether have not some of you in Conferences with many good people and by discourses in private acâ—…ed for your selves and way by stumbling them in the point of a particular Church and in the point of coming to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper and by pleading for a Toleration of all opinions that may stand with saving Grace and doth none of you remember what was answered you that Poligâ—…mie might stand with saving Grace and must that be tolerated 8. Whether have not some of you tampered with some Parliament men about delaying the meeting of the Assembly and suggesting to them doubts and feares about it and whether in the Assembly have you not by all possible wayes both in opposing some orders of speaking but so many times to one point the sooner to bring things to an end and by other wayes all that you could delaied the proceedings of the Assembly and all this out of acting for your selves and way that so your party might increase and your opinions spread before the Government might be setled 9. Have not some of you out of acting for your selves and way endeavoured the bringing into the Assembly since the sitting of it some Independents to be members of it and upon their being stopped have not some of you earnestly dealt with some members of the House of Commons that they might passe their House and what could this be but out of acting for your selves and way 10. Whether have not you out of acting for your selves and way had many meetings and consultations both of writing letters into New-England for their help and furtherance and about what you should doe and how to order matters since the Scots must be sent for and since the Assembly could not be hindred how things might be managed and carried for the best advantage of your cause and way and whether was not this Apologeticall Narration one of the Products of your consultations Now unto these ten I might adde other Quaeres but shall reserve them to my Rejoynder these being sufficient to satisfie you and the Reader So that laying all these things together what did you meane or thinke with your selves when you writâ—… these passages could you imagine you danced in a net all this time and that men tooke no notice of you or that all had been forgotten that you had done and preacht or did you imagine your power was so great with the people having such a name that all would be taken for truth you writ or that your greatnesse was such that no man durst question what you had done or appeare against your Apologie or if they did they should but blast themselves among the people and the people would believe nothing against you what strange spirit possessed you to write thus For my part I feare not my name I have learned to trust God with it and I dare by the Grace and helpe of Gods Spirit deale with you and all of you in these Controversies But supposing all you affirme of your selves had been true eujus contrarium verum est as is too evident by what I have proved that you had neither preached printed nor acted personally for your selves and way yet all this forbearance might have been not from the grounds and reasons brought by you in this Section but from other principles of wisdome and policie as the more to ingratiate your selves with the Houses of Parliament and to insinuate into their favour and that you might the better make such an Apologie as this and make use of it to your advantage at such a time as this and I judge such considerations have restrained some of you and prevailed with you not to act so much as your fellowes and not so openly as otherwise you would especially knowing whilest you were in the Tyring-house unseene the Scene was full and the Tragedie went on there being no want of Actors on the open Stage to carry on your Church way As for instance Mr W. Mr P. Mr K. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr C. Mr B. Mr P. Mr G. Mr W. Mr W. S. Mr C. Mr E. Mr C. Mr A. Mr L. cum multis aliis of whose preachings and acting for themselves and way in gathering of Churches c. and of books made by some of them and printed by others of them it would fill a book to enumerate particulars and to declare what hath been done in Citie Countrey Armies and in all places to make and increase parties and to occasion so great disturbance amongst all sorts as that it will be found a hard worke to settle the Government of the Church and to reduce the people And I confesse you having such choice of Instruments and under-worâ—…men to work by and to build your Babel I marvell you contented not your selves with onely casting the Modell and giving the pattern and aime to others but that you should appeare upon the workes your selves as often-times you did To your second main part in this Section the Provocations you have had all sorts of wayes to have preached printed and acted for your selves both by the Common misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions and practises c. I must tell you I judge and that upon good grounds never men laying all things together consideratis considerandis had fewer provocations for considering you were but a few in comparison and going in a new different way from all the Reformed Churches and the destructivenesse of your principles to Reformation with the danger of them in drawing away and stealing our sheep from us and the contempt of our Ministerie occasioned by your principles among all the people generally of your way as also your leaving the land in the greatest need notwithstanding all these and many more that all the godly Ministers of City and Countrey should carry themselves towards you with that love respect fairnesse brotherly kindnesse as they did might have provoked you indeed but in another way then you expresse it And for the truth of this I appeale to your owne breasts and to the knowledge of my brethren and to these following demonstrations 1. There was a great deale of loving respects and faire carriage towards you both in admitting you into their Pulpits and in forbearing all things offensive to you and your party before the Sermons to gratifie you 2. There was a great deale of faire respects to you in admitting you into their Societie and publique meetings about the matters of Reformation 3. There was a generall silence by the Godly Ministers I feare unto sinfull in forbearing preaching against your points and that when some of you preached for your way and many Pamphlets were printed for it 4. The Ministers suffered some of you and no
godly Protestant party and of much distracting them and of making severall interests Whence have come all the rents and divisions to speake of in the godly Protestant party all the â—…ets stopps and delayes in the intended Reformation but from you and by occasion and meanes of you The authority of your names holding these opinions having the reputation of Schollars and of excellent Preachers whereby you are cryed up of many and so much followed your interest and favour in too many considerable persons have drawne so much had it not been for your sakes these rents and divisions had never come to this head there had not been that connivance nor such delayes of setling governement c. most of the rest of your way were in comparison contemptible both for name and gifts and could not have done that hurt and why then in a time by your own confession of absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction and all little enough to effect that Reformation intended and so long contended for against a common adversary that had both present possession to plead for it selfe power to support it and had injoyed a long continued settlement which had rooted it in the hearts of men have you done so much by preaching and acting to rend and divide the godly protestant party there was no absolute necessity just at that time when you did preach and stirre for your way for you to have done so affirmatives though they doe bind semper yet not ad semper there were greater truths in doctrine and in Reformation of government which you might have preached on for that time but there was an absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction I heartily with this first Reason and ground deepely layed to heart by you and then I know you must greatly repent for what you have done in this particular since your returne into England and had not God been and were he not the more gracious and better to us then ordinary your carriage and what hath been by your meanes would have spoiled our Reformation and hath done much to keepe the common Adversary in his present possession and long continued settlement but I pray God humble you for it and forgive you and seeing you knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell and that the beginning of strife would have been as the breaking in of waters why were you not contented with the giving of the first blow and the first occasion of the quarrell both by your former preaching and practising but to adde this second great blow the writing of this Apologeticall Narration which though it be not on your parts the beginning of strife yet it will prove as the breaking in of waters and as the kindling of a fire not likely to be put out in hast 2. And this seconded by the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference They having also by their Declarations to his Majesty professed their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths against Popery and other heresies and to have that respect to tender consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which hath formerly been I judge this ground seconding the former should have been powerfull with you to a deepe silence and forbearance every particular branch of it speaks strongly to you to forbeare what ever might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference Nay almost every word in it â—…s an argument to command The instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament what might not all these have wrought and then take in also that they had by their Declarations to His Majestie c. and that they would have a respect to tender Consciences Now what could you almost have wished more or what better securitie for your selves and way A man would thinke all these might have commanded you not to have acted for your selves and way and certainly your fault was the greater in doing contrary and you are the more inexcusable had not this seconded the former yet your knowledge of the first was enough to have taken ingenuous spirits but this seconding the first it is too bad that you went contrary to the instant and continuall advices and conjurement of many Honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament As for those passages inserted in this Reason the Parliaments Declarations to his Majestie professing their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths and to have that respect to tender Consciences wherein you would insinuate that the Parliament had put you in some hopes of a Toleration and that grounded upon some passages in their Declarations had you named what Declarations speake so I could have perused and examined them and have returned you an answere I question it not from the words and sense but to put it out of doubt that the Parliament intends no Toleration in such words as having respect to tender consciences c. I referre you to the first and great Remonstrance and Declaration of the House of Commons wherein they declare the contrary and ingage themselves to the Kingdome against it answering to that as a Calumnie cast upon them to traduce their proceedings They infuse into the people that we meane to abolish all Church-Government and leave every man to his owne fancy for the Service and Worship of God absolving him of that obedience which he owes under God unto his Majestie whom we know to be intrusted with the Ecclesiasticall Law as well as with the temporall to regulate all the members of the Church of England by such rules of Order and Discipline as are established by Parliament which is his great Councell in all affaires both in Church and State And we doe here declare that it is farre from our purpose or desire to let loose the golden reynes of Discipline and Government in the Church to leave private persons or particular Congregations to take up what forme of Divine Service they please for we hold it requisite that there should be throughout the whole Realme a Conformity to that Order which the Lawes enjoyne according to the Word of God And we desire to unburthen the Consciences of men of needlesse and superstitious Ceremonies suppresse innovations and take away the monuments of idolatry And the better to effect the intended Reformation we desire there may be a generall Synod of the most grave pious learned and judicious Divines of this Island assisted with some from forraine parts professing the same Religion with us who may consider of all things necessary for the peace and good Government of the Church and represent the results of their Consultations
issue and all is resolved into the body of the Congregation and their power from first to last amongst the Apologists as well as amongst the Brownists though here 't is carried in a fairer way as fine wits must doe and that they may have something to say wherein they are not Brownists but of this the Reader may see more in this Answer page 204 205 206. 8. The Presbyteriall way the order and governmeâ—… of the reformed Churches hath been countenanced from Heaven and blessed from above with the preservation of the truth and unitie of Religion against heresies and errors in Doctrine Idolatry and corruption in worship and all sorts of sects and â—…chisme it hath been free of those mischiefes and evills of errors and divisions which the Independent Churches have swarmed with and that through a long tract of time and the experience of almost a hundred yeeres together In reformed Churches where this government hath been set up and hath had its free way and exercise even where it hath wanted the advantages of the Magistrate being a member of the Church and hath had many disadvantages in regard of the spirits and dispositions of the people with many temptations to errors yet it hath in those places kept out errors and schismes preserved puritie of doctrine and peace For example in the Churches of France it is evident by many yeeres experiences though their Princes be popish and they live in the midst of Papists yet by Gods blessing upon their government and order their Churches have been and are pure in doctrine few or none falling to Popery Arminianisme or to sects and schâ—…smes and when any errors doe arise amongst them yet by meanes of that governement they are soone suppressed and prevented from spreading It was the observation of Beza in his time of the French Churches though France was grievously afflicted and oppressed by many yet for that which concerned Religion it was free from all troubles and stirrs And yet notwithstanding there was nothing wanting of all those things by which Satan might easily draw and move the French to all kind of troubles for example an inbred naturall lightnesse in that Nation wits very ready for subtiltie and â—…iceties the mind of the Magistrates intent also upon it that all manner of wayes the Christian Churches might destroy themselves with their inward dissentions notwithstanding all this no strength of the adversaries hitherto no not in the midst of all the tempests of warre hath been able to beare thorough the most strong buâ—…warke and wall of Ecclesiasticall discipline For the Church of Scotland I have heard it often and that from good hands that during the free use and exercise of Presbyteriall government there never any heresie or schisme tooke the third man but by meanes of that governement it hath been pul'd up at first and either the particular person broaching the errour recovered or however prevented before three have beene infected with it Beza in his first Epistle gives a notable testimony to this government by the blessing of God upon it in the City of Geneva Geneva be it spoken without offence hath rather escaped then overcome all the inward tempests against Religion so great as no City perhaps under Heaven hath done the like it never yet felt any differences nor contentions of the Pastors amongst themselves in points of doctrine 't is free from the furies of the Anabaptists the contagion of the Libertines the blasphemies of Servetians a City otherwise open to all strangers and comers and for that cause very fit and subject to the wiles of Satan But truly it owes all this by Gods blessing to the Ecclesiasticall discipline duely and diligently observed which also now causes that all sorts almost out of all nations under Heaven there gathered together in peace and in true liberty of conscience doe willingly accord together The Commissioners of the Church of Scotland tell us that this government hath made the Church of Christ terrible as an army with banners and like a strong and fenced City against which the adversaries have despaired to prevaile but by making a breach in this wall and where they have gained ground or gotten any advantage either the wall hath not been built or being built hath been broken down or not vigilantly kept by the watchmen But there will be objected against this a passage lately printed in a book of Mr Simpsons that there have beene as great defections both of Ministers and people unto errors under Presbyteriall government as under any other as it is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists Socinians I have instanced in severall reformed Churches and showed Gods blessing upon Presbyteriall government here 's only one instance among all the reformed Churches brought against it and to that I shall give these three answers Though the Churches in the Low-Countries are Presbyteriall yet withall ther 's a Toleration of other Churches and government there which is one of the causes of it and hinders Presbyteriall government A Toleration will spoile any Church and government if Presbyteriall government be setled and a Toleration given in this Land that will marre all so that the Parliament may be pleased to take notice by this and observe the difference between those Churches which have no Tolerations as Scotland Geneva and the Low-Countries which grant a Toleration the one are pure in doctrine c. the other makes Ministers and people turne Arminians Socinians c. 2 Answ. There 's another Reason why it may so fall out in the Low-Countries because Presbyteriall government hath not its free course there in Synods but 't is much disturbed over 't is in France Geneva Scotland whereas by their Canons and Constitutions in the Netherlands there should be a Nationall Synod once in three yeeres they have not nor cannot procure one in twenty yeeres and upwards and whereas Provinciall Synods should be yeerely they have them in some Provinces but once in five and seven yeeres besides there are other disturbances in Presbyteriall government which hinders the free course of it in Holland many encroachments are made upon the rights of their Church due to them by vertue of their discipline and heretofore established In a word that Anabaptisticall and Familisticall spirit in many and that corrupt spirit and principles in others with those principles of Toleration doth much check and stop Presbyteriall government from having its perfect worke and bringing forth its full effects The true Reason of so many Ministers and people turning Arminians and Socinians in the Low-Countries was the want of Synods which Arminius and his followers alwayes declined and by flattering the Magistrates kept off for many yeares in which time so many fell whereas if Presbyteriall government had had its course and a Nationall Synod had been called yea but a Provinciall for the Arminians to have answered in at first before it had so much