those that are acquainted with St. Hierome's Writings well know that this Passage was intended to beat down the Usurpation of the Deacons at Rome who then began to out-top the Presbyters on this Account he was tempted to magnifie and extoll the Place and Dignity of Presbyters in the Church And though he said that Bishops and Presbyters are all one He yet in other places excepts the Office of Ordination and Government And does at other times plainly and frequently assert the Authority of Bishops over Presbyters and did himself constantly live in Communion with and Subjection to Bishops John Calvin could not advance himself at Geneva without the Bishop's Fall and yet had all things belonging to a Bishop but the Name As Old Noll had in the Monarchy but the bare Title of King The Geneva or Presbyterian Discipline was begotten in Rebellion born in Sedition and nurs'd up by Faction Aerius was one of the worst Friends you cou'd have produc'd he was vex'd to see himself slighted and not preferr'd to a Bishoprick as his Companion Eustathius was And this made the haughty Man start aside and talk extravagantly against Bishops â—â—at the Church branded and excommunicated him for an Heretick and Epiphanius represents him little better than a Mad-man distemper'd by Pride Emulation Envy Covetousness Ambition These were the Causes of his opposing Episcopal Government If you consult Blondell Salmatius and Daillé whose great Parts Learning and indefatigable Industry cou'd if any thing have made out the contrary you 'll see they have been forc'd to grant That Episcopacy obtain'd in the Church within a few Years after the Apostolick But our Church can safely carry it higher even to the Apostles themselves so much you urg'd me to speak concerning the Antiquity and Dignity of Bishops in the Church Dissent We all acknowledge we have had Freedom enough to speak for our selves we have but one thing more to plead and then we shall submit to your Lordship's Determination Our Separation from the Church must be allow'd because there are in it many wicked People scandalous ill Livers who for want of due Exercise of Discipline or by the Inadvertence or Connivence of its Governours do remain in it and so give us just occasion of Offence and Separation There are two Texts of Scripture for us in this Case 2 Cor. 6. 17. Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing so Rev. 18. 4. Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye receive not of her plagues Judge This I take to be none of the least Absurdities the Dissenters are guilty of Are there no such Mixtures no Offenders no ill Livers amongst you Are they all holy harmless and pure that come to your Congregations If not you have the same Reasons to separate to come out from among them as to withdraw from the Church for fear of Pollution and by the same Argument you must never join in any Communion while the World endures The want of Discipline we may thank you for You You Dissenters are the Cause that so many Immoralities are now tolerated That Excommunication and other necessary Censures of the Church which formerly kept People in good Order and preserv'd the Honor and Reputation of Religion are by your Encouragement of Disobedience both omitted and mock'd at And were you truly Men of tender Consciences this one Consideration would make your Hearts ake Look into the State of the Church under the Jewish Administration and you 'll find that the Sins of neither Priest nor People owning the True God became at any time the occasion of Separation to them What Sins could be greater than those of Eli's Sons And yet did not the People of God Elkanah and Hannah by Name refrain to join with them in the Publick Worship 1 Sam. 2. 17 24. In Ahab's time when all Israel halted betwixt God and Belial yet then did the Prophet Elijah summon all Israel to appear on Mount Carmel and held a Religious Communion with them in Preaching and Praying and Offering a Miraculous Sacrifice 1 King 18. All along when both Prince Priests and People were very much deprav'd and debauch'd in their Manners we don't find that the Prophets at any time exhorted the Faithful and Sincere to separate from the rest or that they themselves set up any separate Meetings but continu'd in Communion with the Church preaching to them and advising them to Repentance Look into the New Testament you 'll see in the Apostolick Churches of Corinth Galatia and the seven Churches of Asia many of the Members were grown very Bad and Scandalous yet we don't read the Example of any Good Man separating from the Church or any one Precept rightly understood from the Apostles so to do They don't tell them that the whole Body was polluted by those filthy Members and that if they would be safe themselves they must withdraw from their Communion but exhort 'em to use all Means to reclaim them And if neither private nor publick Admonitions and Reproofs wou'd do then to suspend them from the Communion of the Church till by Repentance and Amendment they render'd themselves capable of being restor'd to Peace and Pardon Our Blessed Saviour knew the Jewish Church to be a corrupt Church Priests and People lewd and vicious yet kept in Communion with it and commanded his Disciples so to do We read that the Scribes and Pharisees who rul'd the Ecclesiastical Chair at that time had perverted the Law corrupted the Worship of God were blind Guides devoured Widows houses were Hypocrites and such as only had a Form of Godliness yet did not our Saviour separate from their Communion but was made under the Law freely submitted himself to all the Rites and Ceremonies of it He was circumcis'd on the Eighth Day redeem'd by a certain Price being a Son and a First-born observ'd the Passover and other Feasts enjoin'd by their Law Yea and that of the Dedication too which was but of Human Institution was baptiz'd amongst them preach'd in their Temples and Synagogues reason'd with 'em about Religion exhorted his Disciples to hear their Doctrine though not to follow their Practices Now what greater Cause on the Account of Corruption and Manners could be given to separate from a Church than was there Yet how carefull was our Saviour both by his Example and Precept to forbid and discountenance it Consider the Representations of a Church given in Scripture and elsewhere to shew that it is a Mixture of Good and Bad 'T is call'd a Field in which Wheat and Tares grew up together a Net wherein are Fishes of all sorts a Barn wherein there is Corn and Chaff a Vine that has fruitful and barren Branches an House in which are Vessels of Gold and Silver and of lesser Value a Marriage-Feast at which were wise and foolish Virgins c. St. Hierome compares the Church to Noah's
do than to mount upon to Heaven with the Wings of true Devotion and offer her Requests in these Words at the Throne of Grace Was it any Amendment instead of praying From Fornication Goood Lord deliver us to say with a Dissenter Lord Unlust us To leave out our admirable Collects for the peaceable and orderly Government of the Church and instead of these to blaspheme the Almighty by telling him If he did not finish the good Work which he had begun in the Reformation of the Church he wou'd shew himself to be a God of Confusion and such an one as by cunning Stratagems had contriv'd the Destruction of his own Children That God wou'd bless the King and mollifie his hard Heart that delights in Blood For that he was fall'n from Faith in God and become an Enemy to his Church Let thy Hand we pray thee O Lord our God be upon him and upon his Father's House But not upon thy People that they should be plagu'd O God! O God! many are the Hands lift up against us But there is one God it is thou thy self O Father who dost us more mischief than they all We know O Lord that Abraham made a Covenant Moses and David made a Covenant and our Saviour made a Covenant But thy Parliament-Covenant is greater than all Covenants with abundance of such intolerable stuff as this I cou'd name Places Time and Persons but I forbear Judge Have you any more to say upon this Head concerning Worship for the Dissenters Dess Advoc. My Lord 'T is the Way they have been us'd to and 't will be hard to persuade them to try any other Judge If that be all go on to the Third Head about Discipline or Church-Government I am willing to hear all out Diss Advoc. We thank your Lordship and the Court we have not much to say in This But New Lords New Laws we are for Change and rather than not have some Amendment in those things we have so long preach'd against nay if all that old Discipline is not laid aside we 'll venture the losing of all the Religion we have rather than submit to the Church Ch. Advoc. I 'm sorry you have no better Argument than Obstinacy When People cannot but acknowledge the Doctrine and Worship of a Church to be according to Truth 't is a Weakness an Absurdity to find fault with its Discipline which was appointed for the better Performance of Religion And the parting from that which is well establish'd the dis-setling of that which is well fixt is not the way to greater Purity and Perfection but to the Corruption and Decay of Religion unless you can shew that the Church was so much over-seen as to constitute Canons and Orders inconsistent with or destructive of the Establish'd Religion Wou'd the Church be so careful to Reform from Popery and to deliver a Pure Religion down to Posterity and not likewise take care of such a Discipline as might preserve the Esteem and Practice of that holy Religion Prove any Order of our Church sinful or not correspondent with Religion that Order that Usage shall immediately be discontinu'd This I am sure you and all the Dissenters in England cannot prove The single and plain Question then is Whether the Government of the Church or That among Dissenters is to be chosen by any Wise Man Look back upon the Changes made in Church-matters by Dissenters in the late Sanctified Times Those Changes those Alterations were not so conducive in their Nature for the Edifying and Well-governing of the Church as those things which they illegally remov'd As for Instance The Ordination by a Bishop accompanied with Presbyters was more certain and satisfactory than that by Presbyters without a Bishop Was it not better to have Forms of well-compos'd Prayers than to petition or rather affront the Almighty with Noise and Nonsense Was it not better to repeat the Creed standing than to leave it quite out of the Directory Was it an Advantage to Christian Piety to change the Gesture of Kneeling in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper when the Sacred Elements are given together with Prayer for that less-reverent one of Sitting of Sitting especially with the Hat on as the most uncomely Practice of some was and is The People being taught to cover the Head while the Minister was to remain bare among them Was the Alteration of giving the Elements an Amendment Read the Directory for Publick Worship in the time when the Dissenters did their best to excell the Church Take ye eat ye This is the Body of Christ which is broken for you This City is the New-Testament in the Blood of Christ which is shed for the Remission of the Sins of may The Words denoting Christ's present Crucifixion and either actually or in the future certainty of it give countenance to the Romish Sacrifice of the Mass Nor was the Civil Pledge of the Ring in Marriage better'd by the Invention of some Pastors who took a Ring of their Women-converts upon admittance into their Church The Forbidding the Observation of Christ's Nativity and other Holy-days did not add one Hairs-breadth to the Piety of the Nation but on the other Hand it took at least from the Common People one ready Means of fixing in their Memories the most useful History of the Christian Religion 'T is possible for meer Dwarfs in Understanding and Policy to contrive an Alteration in Government that may be pleasing to themselves for a time during their Passion and the Novelty of the Model in their own Fancy not yet disturb'd by some unforeseen Mischief or Inconvenience But 't is extreme difficult upon the whole matter to make a true and lasting Improvement fitted and fram'd to all Cases and Circumstances of Affairs in Religious Observances So that if we make a fair Comparison and let Experience and Reason rule in this Case we must say That the Government of the Church is Best still Diss Advoc. If we have got no Ground of the Establish'd Church in Matters of Doctrine Worship and Discipline I hope it may be granted we have the Advantage by much in the Purity of Life We are holier and less offensive than other Men. If you 'll not allow That we are certainly far more demure and private in our Vices more wary and cautious in letting 〈◊〉 Faults be seen by the World while the Church-men are most care 〈…〉 n that Point and seem far worse than they really are Ch. Advoc. 'T is worth our observation That no Argument has hitherto been offer'd in favour of the Dissenters but carries a sufficient Confutation along with it I have the Charity to think well of some Men who out of a true desire of pleasing God having no worldly Design at the bottom do in some Circumstances differ from us I am perswaded there are many well-meaning Dissenters who from their Hearts detest all known Wickedness And such only will rightly consider the Mischiefs of Separation which every one
in this Matter Henry I confess These are Truths not to be deny'd many Particulars to be avoided and many to be practised by every good Christian I know that the World is grown to that pass that the repeating of the plainest Texts is accounted by many as unconcluding in Divinity as in Philosophy But 't is time for us to lay aside all our Sophistry and to prefer the Wisdom of God before our own O! my deluded Brethren have we not troubled the Nation and our selves too much with unreveal'd Secrets hearkning to Fables and rejecting the Truth Have we not been for making a Church a Saint a Minister a Heaven a Christ a Light a God in our own Imagination while the Truths in Scripture are nothing worth in respect of These Have we not delighted in Tattlings Wandrings busying our selves in Things which concern us not Are not our Opinions new Opinions contrary to the Church Don't we use our Liberty for a Cloak of Disorder a Cloak to Sacrilege a Cloak to usurp the Divinest Imployments To cry All are one in Christ Jesus therefore all are one in a Kingdom a Church a Family We are all free from beggarly Rudiments the Rudiments of the Ceremonial Law therefore we are free from Ceremonies of Order and Decency among Christians therefore no Tythes to be paid no Priests to be maintain'd tho' the Priesthood of Christ be not a Levitical but long before a Levitical Priesthood a Priesthood after his Order that received Tythes a Tything Priesthood before the Levitical Law was instituted and that not for a short duration but for ever after the Order of Melchizedech We have declaim'd against Priest to destroy Minister we say Christ is an High-Priest and yet have deny'd his Ministers to be Priests of an Inferior Order Our Lives have been questioning tatling opposing railing damning Lives And truly Friends such Lives are contrary to the Light of Christ the Light of the Word or any Light but that which the Scripture calls Darkness And however we may come off before an Earthly Judge 't will be too hard for you to answer these Things at an higher Tribunal Then Brethren 't will be better for you to say Lord we have believed trusted hoped in thy Word than We have disputed question'd and contemn'd it Better for our Light to say O Lord we have receiv'd thy Prophets in thy Name give us we beseech thee a Prophet's Reward than We have slain thy Prophets revil'd and set at naught thy Ministers and their Ministry Therefore as you love your Salvation as you desire the Favour and Fruition of God if your Souls Reputations and Consciences are dear to you no more of these Things which the Light of Eternal Truth tells us we must avoid Judge What say you to the Practical Part of Religion Can you clear your selves in the foregoing Particulars Henry I wish we could do so But alas when I examin'd my Life by the Rules of Truth I found little of the Christian in me while I adher'd to my own Light For is this Brotherly Love to separate from the Church and think nothing worth our Labour but what opposeth it Is this to prefer one another in Honour when we think our selves so holy that we abhor the Congregations of Church-men think we are polluted to join in Prayer and Communion with them so wise that all Words besides our own are vain Words all Books but ours are meer Errours that we and none else have the Light the Word the Truth all Privileges Is it to live peaceably as is possible when we think it an excellency to disturb Order to find fault with every thing but our own Inventions and agree in nothing but to disturb that which is establish'd Is this the Peace we are to exercise Is this the Quietness of Illuminated Christians The True Light shews us That if we have Faith we must have it to our selves not to disturb the Church of God with it We may all be Christians and yet have our several Opinions But if we have our Opinions different from the receiv'd Opinions of the Visible Church we ought to keep them to our selves not to divulge or disperse them to disturb our Brethren How can we say that we hold fast the Profession of our Faith without wavering when we scarce know what Article of Faith we have not rejected We dispute of Heaven or Hell of any Light or Way to Heaven but that within us First We contemn'd and threw off the Bishops the Worship and Discipline appointed and approv'd by them Next We contemn'd the Presbyters which we us'd as a Means to destroy Bishops We rejected the Independents which shew'd us a different Way from Presbytery Is there any thing we now approve in any of them but the Extempore's And not them neither but as they serve a Turn Is this holding fast to seek all new to reject old Doctrines old Principles Rules and Ceremonies We are Waverers Questioners of all things Holders of nothing The Truth tells us We are to study Quietness to esteem a Minister very highly in Love for his Works sake to withdraw from every Brother that walks disorderly to follow the Churches of God But our Lives do directly oppose the Truth Nobis quiet a movere merces videbatur We have always been for Troubled Waters if we cou'd but question or contradict put an odious Gloss or Interpretation upon the Church That was a Pleasure to us We love the Clergy so well that we wou'd detain their Tythes that Poverty might make them Blessed We rail against Tythes not that we think 'em unlawful but for other Reasons We have a long time made it our Business to revile the Clergy of England to finite the Shepherds that the Sheep might be scatter'd and to draw the Hearts of the People from them Are not we to withdraw from every Brother which walks disorderly And does not he walk disorderly who walks contrary to those Duties which the Apostles have taught in their Epistles Are we not to follow the Churches of God But we have followed every Separation a Meeting-house a Desart a Secret-chamber a Schism-shop a Seducing-school any Place but a Steeple-house How do we follow the Apostles if we don 't as they require Do we practise that Lowliness Meekness and many other Christian Duties Do we agree with others as far as we can and wait till God shall be pleas'd farther to reconcile us We shou'd not permit Women to lay aside their Silence and Subjection and to become Speakers in our Seducinghouses I 'm sure they don't instruct in Meekness but question with Impudence evade by Ignorance gloss by Impertinence and conquer by no Dispute but violent Bawling and invincible Insolence Women's Disputing lost us Paradise and Women's Preaching can do no less than lose us the Truth of our Doctrine and the Peace and Safety of the Church And if my Brethren would duly consider the Plainness and Authority of these unerring Rules
of Christian Light and Life and what the Spirit has said to the Churches in the Holy Scripture they wou'd soon be of my mind the Difference betwixt us and the Church of England wou'd here be ended Judge Did not I tell you that Friend Henry wou'd shew himself an honest Man Has any of that Party more to offer for themselves Let them come forth and they shall be heard Quakers We object against the Clergy of England That they are no true Ministers as being sent by Men whereas St. Paul declares that he was not of men neither by men but by Jesus Christ Gal. 1. 1. Judge The Apostle may be consider'd either in respect of his First Calling which we commonly call Internal or Extraordinary Calling and so indeed St. Paul was not called of man nor by man but by Jesus Christ Acts 9. 4 5 6. Or in respect of his Second Calling that is External or Ordinary Calling and so St. Paul was called by man as much as any Minister in our Church was called by Man For 1. He had the Hands of Ananias put upon him to receive his Sight and to be fill'd with the Holy Ghost Acts 9. 17. 2. He was separated in the Church at Antioch by Fasting and Prayer 3. He was not to be believ'd till he had the Testimony of Barnabas as Letters of Orders or Commendation from the Church Acts 9. 27. 2 Cor. 3. 1. 'T is necessary that Extraordinary Ministers should have an extraordinury Assurance of their being sent of God Moses must work Miracles and Christ must work Miracles But Ordinary Ministers are to give but ordinary Assurance that they are ordain'd by the Church and that they preach nothing contrary to the Form of sound Words reveal'd in the Scripture Deut. 13. 1. Gal. 1. 7 8 9. 1 John 4. 1. Quak. Is this all the Evidence we must expect of the Truth of a Minister Judge This is as much as can be expected in Cases of this Nature Miracles are sometimes requir'd but never unless upon extraordinary Occasions And these Miracles our Dissenters can no more pretend to than the present Clergy of the Church of England and to reject all their Admonitions by enquiring into the Proof of their Authority or Christ's speaking in them was an old Wile of Christ's and St. Paul's Enemies which they do not resolve but pass by as if that were to be suppos'd not disputed Vid. Mark 11. 28. 2 Cor. 13. 3. Quak. But your Priests take too much upon them Why all these Robes Riches Tythes Oblations Why shou'd the Priests be so well provided for Every one of us is as holy as deserving as any of Them Judge It has ever been the Practice of Separatists to envy and misapply the Privileges of the Church Look into the Congregation of Korah not one of them thinks he but was at least as good as Moses and Aaron Methinks I hear 'em say How much do they take upon ' em How do they lift up themselves above the Congregation of the Lord Why all this Blue and Purple and Scarlet all this Linen Gold and Jewels for one Priest What a Plating and a Wyring and Cunning Work 's here Here 's a stir about Ephods Curious Girdles Breast-plates and Coats Cannot the Priest be well enough without these Linen Coats these Surplices Mitres and Bonnets What a Lording it do they keep with their curious Garments their costly Hems their intermix'd Bells and Pomegranates 'T is not enough for them to have Robes but they must have plated Gold too nay Plates of Gold are not enough neither but they must have Jewels enclos'd in them What Jewels Yes Rows of Jewels 1. A Ruby a Topaz a Carbuncle 2. An Emrald a Saphire a Diamond 3. A Lygure an Agate an Amethyst 4. A Beryl an Onyx a Jasper Here 's Pride upon Pride Here 's taking upon 'em to purpose What are these Priests more than we that they shou'd be thus robed we naked and ragged Gold Plated Gold Plates with Jewels Jewels in whole Rows Rows ingraven Ingravings of the most curious manner The Ingravings of a Signet We may well be poor whilst we must maintain all this Pride of Aaron and his Sons This is like to be a Soul-saving Priest that has as much in every Jewel as wou'd provide sufficiently for many of us If Judas shou'd be Judge he wou'd cry All this Waste at the annointing of Jesus And what did they against Aaron or Christ which you do not carry on against the Clergy of England And what do you object against the present Clergy that was not objected against Moses and Aaron Talk ye of the Pride of the Priests So did they Talk ye of taking too much upon them So did they Talk ye of the Priests being above you So did they Talk ye of the Holiness of your Congregations So did these abominable Conspirators Ah! Holiness If this be Holiness 't is Holiness to be abhorr'd Mouth-Holiness Heart-Hellish-Holiness If this be Holiness then be as plain as the conspiring Jews were against our Saviour Not this man but Barabbas Not Moses but Korah Not Aaron but Abiram Not Jesus but Judas Not God but the Devil Judge Well Gentlemen you have heard a long and fair Debate the Arguments and Proofs on both Parts for and against the Church with divers Objections against The Best Choice for Religion and Government Tell me Are you agreed upon your Verdict Jury All agreed Judge Is the Book Guilty or Not guilty Jury Not guilty my Lord. Judge Because I wou'd have no Mistake Do you find for Church or Conventicle Jury Unanimously for the Church against all Dissenters and all their Adherents Judge The Verdict's just and you have shew'd your selves Men of great Integrity in this Case Call the Heads of the Latitudinarians Presbyterians Independents Seekers and Quakers Have you any thing more to say why Sentence shou'd not pass upon you Young Couns My Lord we plead the Act of Parliament for Liberty of Conscience which we all interpret as a sufficient Authority to impower us to do what we please and may excuse if not justifie all our Proceedings Judge You do strangely abuse and misinterpret that Law it was design'd in favour of Tender Consciences but not to take away all Conscience I wish the Dissenters may all shew themselves those Good Men who truly deserve Favour Quak. We are a rich and thriving People we prosper whereever we go and this we offer as an Argument that Heaven favours us and that we justly expect Encouragements from Men. Judge Is God's permitting Men to be prosperous or to sin on with Impunity any good Reason of his approving them God permits what he abominates his own Dishonour How patiently did he permit the Disobedience of the First Adam And the Crucifixion of the Second All the Villanies in the World do come to pass by God's Permission however contrary they are to his Rules and Precepts If prosperous Impiety does therefore cease to
be Impiety because 't is prosperous and permitted that is not hinder'd by Force and Violence inconsistent with a free Moral Agent then the Great Sultan and the Great Cham and the Great Mogull as well as the Great Bishop of Rome are by an equal Sound-Consequence the greatest Favourites of Heaven And then the Argument of Symmachus had been unanswerably conclusive against the Primitive Christians who for 300 Years and upwards lay groaning under the Yoke of the Heathens Tyranny or Lastly If Permission were still a Mark of Approbation then Dionysius or Diagoras had argu'd logically well when having robb'd the Delphick Temple and immediately after escap'd a Shipwrack He gave it out that the Gods had approv'd his Sacrilege Not at all that he believ'd but laugh'd at Providence Riches and Prosperity are not always Blessings to the Enjoyers of them but very often bestow'd on the worst of Men to their hurt The Divine Wisdom reserving a better Reward for his dearest Servants in the World Presb. and Indep My Lord We are not satisfi'd that our dividing and separating from the Church of England deserves so bad a Name as that of Schism if it does we must expect a very severe Sentence and the Court must be justifi'd in its Proceedings against us Judge You have had enough offer'd before by the Church's Advocate but to leave the Matter more clear take the Judgment of your Principal Men who when time was reason'd thus against those that subdivided from them If we be a Church of Christ and Christ hold Communion with us why do you separate from us If we be the Body of Christ do not they that separate from the Body separate from the Head also If the Apostle calls those Divisions of the Church of Corinth wherein Christians did not separate into divers formed Congregations in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Schisms 1 Cor. 1. 10. may not your Secession from us and professing you cannot join with us as Members and setting up Congregations of another Communion be more properly call'd Schism You gather Churches together out of your Churches and set up Churches in an opposite Way to our Churches and all this you do voluntarily and unwarrantably not having any sufficient Cause for it In the same Book they tell us of a Twofold Schism Negative and Positive Negative when Men do peaceably and quietly withdraw from Communion with a Church from which they are departed The other is when Persons withdrawing do consociate and withdraw themselves into a distinct and opposite Body setting up a Church against a Church which say they Camero calls a Schism by way of Eminence And farther tells us there are Four Causes that make a Separation from a Church lawful 1. When they that separate are grievously and intolerably persecuted 2. When the Church they separate from is Heretical 3. When 't is Idolatrous 4. When 't is the Seat of Antichrist And where none of these Four are found there the Separation is insufficient and Schism Now we are fully assur'd that none of these Four Causes can be charg'd upon our Congregations Therefore you must not be displeas'd with us if we blame you as guilty of positive Schism All which is as true now as it was then and as applicable to us and them and it was to them and their Dissenters The Presbyterians and Independents are indeed more guilty of Schism in separating from the truly Apostolical Church of England than they could be in dividing from each other Seekers But we think there are some things in the Constitution of that Church might be contriv'd to better Purposes and we would find out a Church that needs no Amendment no Alteration Judge Then you must be of no Church on this side Heaven you seek in vain because such Perfection is not in this World yet as great a Degree of it in the Church of England as in any Church or Congregation on Earth and for ought yet appears much greater But that every suppos'd Corruption in a Church is not a sufficient Ground of Separation or Warrant enough to rend and tear the Church in pieces Let Mr. Calvin judge between us who says That where-ever the Word of God is duly preach'd and reverently attended to and the true Use of the Sacraments kept up there is the plain Appearance of a True Church whose Authority no Man may safely despise or reject its Admonitions or resist its Counsel or set at nought its Discipline much less separate from it and violate its Unity For that our Lord has so great a Regard to the Communion of his Church That he accounts him an Apostate from his Religion who obstinately separates from any Christian Society which keeps up the true Ministry of the Word and Sacraments That such a Separation is a Denial of God and of Christ And that 't is a dangerous and pernicious Temptation so much as to think of separating from such a Church the Communion whereof is never to be rejected so long as it continues in the true use of the Word and Sacraments Though otherwise it be overrun with many Blemishes and Corruptions Which is as plain and full a Determination of the Case as if he particularly design'd it against the Doctrine and Practice of the Modern Dissenters from our Church Quak. I hope the Nation will yet believe us to be very honest harmless Men who deal fairly and kindly with all Persons never oppressing griping or defrauding any Man we are at a Word avoid abundance of that vain unnecessary Talk which others use in Trading and therefore I humbly desire that the Court would acquit us Judge You have forfeited much of that good Opinion that the Nation once had of you and all the Riches you boasted of were gotten by Peoples Credulity trusting you too much before they try'd you All your Religion is now dwindled into a bare Pretence of Honesty which at best is not equal to that of the more Ancient Heathens Your YEA or NAY your Single Word shall bite as much as a Thousand a Lye may soon be told and if the World complains of you for any Dishonesty in over-reaching or deceiving your Neighbours all is put off with your Spiritual Distinction 'T is not say you downright Cheating of Men but a sanctifi'd Out-witting 'em which is own'd and practised amongst you Presbyt My Lord We have two or three Gentlemen to produce in our Vindication Judge Who are they Presbyt St. Hierome Aerius and Honest John Calvin The first says That Bishop and Presbyter are all one The second That they differ nothing in Order Dignity and Power And the last was so offended with Episcopacy That he threw out the Bishop of Geneva and turn'd the Name of Bishop into that of Superintendent and under that Title He and his Godly Successours have there about one hundred Years govern'd that Church Judge Hierome must be a Saint now for letting fall one single Sentence in favour of the Presbyterians But