of Rom. 2.22 â—y Dr. Featly an Episcopal Doctor and a Reveâ—â—nd man a great Sufferer for his Majesty in the â—te times That of Ezek. by Dr. Richardson Biâ—hop of Ardagh in Ireland a person of great Learâ—ing and worth and that in Genesis by Mr. Leigh â—ho was Sub-Dean of Chester As for the Asâ—embly when they sat and acted as an Assembly â—â—en in those days they did dare to condemn â—â—mony and Sacriledge both as Sins against the seâ—ond Commandment as you may read in the â—â—rger Catechism and they cite those two Scriptures for the proof thereof Romans 2.22 Malachy 3.8 And as these were their Principles against the Alienation of Church-Means so they made it their business to preserve the Lands and Revenues of the Church from Spoil and Rapine The Bishops Temporalties were engaged foâ— great Sums of Money before ever the Assembly met and I never heard that the Parliament advised with the Assembly about the sale of them Yet this is certain that the Tythes belonging to the Bishops were kept unsold and reserved foâ— the Churches use and all the Dean and Chapters Lands left untouched even by that Parliament which if over any Was the Presbyterian Parliament until their Members were seized on secluded imprisoned and driven away bâ— the Army They were not Friends to the Hierarchy if we believe Dr. Heylin in his Cyp. Angâ— who designed the buying in of all Impropriations and if we credit Dr. Fuller in fifty year they would have bought them all in And in after times when great Attempts were made tâ— sell the Tythes and Glebe Lands it was withstood zealously and effectually for it was prevented under God chiefly by the means of the Presbyterians and their Friends in the City and Country To conclude will you have Mr. Knoâ— the Fore-man of the Presbyterians his Judgement about Sacriledge For John Knox as saitâ— Archbishop Spotswood 't is clear by his Sermons and Writings still extant that he held it a point of high Sacriledge to rob and spoyl the Church of Tythes Quest Is it not very pride self-conceitedness humour peevishness yea and very obstinacy that occasions their Non-conformity Answ Some of the Nonconformists of old and of late have offered to purge themselves by Oath from so great Crimes in the Case And others have in the Pulpit in their Farewel Sermons protested the contrary and that it was meet Conscience of Duty and fear of Sin which caused their Inconformity Quest Are the Nonconformists justly compared to the Pharises See Cont. p. 138. Answ No The Pharisees in our Saviours time were great Zealots and Sticklers for the Ceremonies of the Jewish Religion and particularly for mens Traditions and Humane Inventions were high Conformists themselves men in Power and Place in the Church and great Haters and Persecutors of the Nonconformists of their times Quest Can any man that is not either very simple or very scrupulous question any thing in the publick Worship in the Liturgy or Ceremonies Is not the Liturgy so perfect that nothing can be added to it or taken from it Answ It was not always so Time was and that but in the year 1644. when learned Mr. Chillingworth preaching before King Charles the First at Reading used these words At what time soever a Sinner doth repent him of his Sins from the bottom of his heart I will put all his wickedness out of my remembrance saith the Lord saith thus The plain truth if you will hear it is The Lord hath not said so these are not the very words of God but the paraphrase of men and by reason of the mistake to which it is subject I fear very often a pernicious paraphrase The Right Reverend the Bishops have done very well to remove this stumbling block at the beginning of the Liturgy O that they would go on to remove out of the way every thing that offends That the Lessons out of the Apocrypha-Books might be either exchanged altogether for the Canonical Scripture or at least reduced to that small number that was appointed in the late Scottish Liturgy where were appointed onely two Chapters out of the Apocrypha one out of Ecclesiasticus the other out of the Book of Wisdom That the new Translation of the Psalms might be read as well as of the Epistles and Gospels That the three Ceremonies the Cross in Baptism the Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament whether nocent or innocent night be removed out of this as out of divers other Reformed Churches by means of the Bishops Mediation with his Majesty and the Parliament on that behalf as was thought advisable by the Sub-Committee for Religion whereof the Bishop of Lincoln had the Chair and Bishop Brownrig Dr. Holsworth Bishop Hacket c. were Members Or at least that the use of them might be free according to his Majesties gracious Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs I wish that of my Lord Verulam might be always sounding in the Ears of the Fathers and the Sons and Daughters of the Church till they give ear to it That a contentiâ—us retaining of Custom is a turbulent thing as â—ell as Innovation Methinks 't is as possible for Nonconformists and Conformists to be reconciled â—s for the Church of England to be reconciled with Rome and yet that great learned Bishop Bramhal thought that not altogether impossible â—upposing saith he that something from whence Offences either given or taken which whether right 〈◊〉 wrong do not weigh half so much as the Unity of Christians were put out of Divine Offices which â—ould not be refused if animosities were taken away Bramh. of Sch. p. 280. To this let me add that Golden Saying of Mr. Hales in his little piece â—f Schism Prayer Confession Thanksgiving Reading of Scripture Administration of Sacraments 〈◊〉 the plainest and simplest manner were matter â—ough to furnish out a Liturgy though nothing eiâ—her of private Opinion or of Church Pomp of â—arments or prescribed Gestures of Imagery or Musick of matter concerning the Dead of many superfluities which creep into the Church under the name of Order and Decency did interpose it self Quest Is there any thing that can reasonably or modestly be desired to be amended or bettered in the managery of the Ecclesiastical Government or Discipline Answ The Rubrick before the Commination in the Liturgy supposes it desirable that the Primitive Discipline used in the beginning of Lent might be restored when notorious Sinners were put to open penance Is nothing amiss saith my Lord Bacon Can any man defend the use of Excommunication as a bare process to lacquey up and down for Duties and for Fees it being the greatest Judgement next unto the General at the laâ—â— day Lord Bacon his Discourse about Church-Affairs p. 32. And might we not say That it seems liable to exception that Chancellors and Commissaries and Officials persons not in holy Orders should have power of Excommunication I have read indeed that the French King hath the power of Excommunication but it may be
Next to Holy-dayes what do the Nonconforming-Ministers think of the Surplice and the rest commonly called Holy Garments Is it not a superstitious and a very superfluous zeal which boyls over so against these things Answ Some I confess are offended the Surplice because abused in the time of Popery to superstition and conceive possibly that because Queen Elizabeth's In junctions or Articles say that the gray Amice shall not be used because it hath been so abused to Superstition that there is the like equity for the disuse of the Surplice There was a Learned and Pious Person once said He had often worn the Surplice but he thought he should rather be hang'd than wear it again For my own part I should be loth to be a Martyr for or against the Surplice being commanded to be used by the Church not as having any holiness in it but onely as a decent Garment Yea I should be loth to be kept out of the Church or Pulpit by Suilling The truth is the Surplice is little beholding to those Doctors that are the Champions for its use when they tell us that it may teach us purity and holiness wherewith we are to be cloathed And may it not as well mind us of the leprosie of sin wherewith we come into the World Lepers as white as Snow Or when they tell us that the Saints that follow the Lamb in the Revelations were all cloathed with long White Robes for by this reason all the People men and women as well as the Minister should wear Surplices and this too would make more for Uniformity Whereas 't is said That there it at much to be said for a Ministers wearing a Surplice at for his wearing a white Cap and that there is no more reason for any to be offended to see a Minister wear a black Hood or a Surplice than to see him wear a white Cap under a black It may be answered That the Surplice is a Garment commanded to be worn by the Minister in Chapel or Church and for the time of his Administration onely The Cap is ad libitum at his choice and worn at all times and places and employments alike and not appropriated to holy persons or holy services and what more reason why any man should be offended to see a white Cap under a black than to see a little black Jack tipp'd with Silver As for the Bishops Lawn Sleeves whatever the Judge said I hope they shall not choak me The Cassock was a Garment for a Souldier and may well enough become those of the Spiritual Militia The Cirsingle as 't is call'd is not for us Nonconformists being turn'd out to Grass Yet I would much rather chuse to have it about my Middle than my Neck and to wear a Girdle than to want a Blessing But now seriously to address my self to the Author of the Friendly Debate I think an indifferent temper about indifferent things is the best my Religion stands not in crying them up or down I cannot be very zealous for or against them Yet methinks it doth not argue much skill or cunning in a Chapman that hath Wares to sell to tell his Customers when they enquire and would be satisfied about the goodness of them They are indifferent they are indifferent These things of themselves and in themselves considered with other humane Ceremonies are but lawful or indifferent not necessary in the Judgment of the Fathers and Sons of the Church They are held the Surplice and other Ceremonies utterly unlawful in the Judgments and Consciences of many on whom they are imposed Now grant it be their weakness so strongly and zealously to oppose these things yet I most humbly beseech the Most Reverend and Right Reverend Fathers of the Church seriously to weigh and consider what that Great Apostle St. Paul the Great Doctor of the Gentiles would have done in that case Quest Do those do well that reproach revile or slight Ministers for their Cassocks or Girdles c. Answ They do not do well no more do they that reproach and revile Ministers for not wearing of them There hath been too much of this both on the Conformists and Nonconformists side but 't is to the commendation of neither If we would forbear clashing one against another live as Friends as Brethren and up to our profession we should be men set by and Reverenced by the People What a shame is it that there should be so many several Religious Orders in the Romish Church who have their several Habits ceremonious Observations and yet honour one another and are all honoured by the People Quest Yet if the Nonconformist would come into the Church and nor stand out as they do out of Order and Rank would not the Church be terrible like an Army with Banners Answ The Way to have all conform I humbly conceive is for the Bishops to follow the example of the Great Council Jerusalem to lay upon the Necks of their Disciples whether Pastors or People no other Burden but necessiry things Acts 15. Add to this At this day there is no perfect Uniformity amongst our Brethren that Conform For some read all the Prayers some not some pray before Sermon some onely bid Prayer some pray after Sermon some not some read Prayers on the holy days some not some read Prayers on Wednesdays and Frydays some not some preach twice a day some but once some Catechise in the afternoon some not some preach upon the 30th of January and the 29th of May some yea the most not some bow towards the Communion-Table most not some call it an Altar most the Communion-Table some bow at the name of Jesus some not some are for their Doctrine Calvinists some Arminians some are Latitudinarians some Altitudinarians some moderate Conformists for Canonical Conformity some High Conformistâ— and for Praeter-canonical Conformity some are Rigidissimos that have short narrow little soulâ— and of the childrens threes others have large true Christian breasts of a capacious and of a comprehensive Charity some are for Union Coalition and Accommodation though with some Condescention or yeelding on their part if his Majesty and Parliament think fit other think Moderation marts all Some account the Calvinian-Conformists Puritan-Conformists and could be pleased more of them were cast out oâ— the Church others think the Nonconforming-Puritans such is their Life and Doctrine may permissu Superiorum well be received again into the bosom of the Church Quest If the Nonconforming-Ministers forbear to come into the Church and conform ouâ— of Conscience and not out of Policy what reason can be given why divers of them when they were offered preferments in the Church at hiâ— Majesties first coming into the Land stood blowing upon them so long before they would either take or leave them D. p. 111. Answ In the Judgment of Charity we may judge the true reason was they expected then some Alteration and Reformation both in Worship and Government and they waited to set
whether there would be such a Reformation as their Consciences could rest satisfied withal if so they resolved to accept those Dignities but when they perceived things were to be setled in statu quo in the condition they are now they waved those places and preferments Might but Bishop Ushers Reduction have been admitted in the Government and the Ceremonies removed or but his Majesties Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs been made a Law they would have thankfully imbraced the offers that were then made them Quest What needs the removal of the Ceremonies be so much as desired of our Governors Are they not like those of a Master of a Family to his Children and Servants to come into the Parlour or Hall at such an hour to Prayer in the Family and to kneel there and he uncovered during Family-Prayers D. p. 106 107. Answ The Nonconforming-Ministers are very willing to come to the Church at the hours appointed by Law and there to stand or kneel and be bare or uncovered at the time of Prayers if such conformity may serve the turn But divers look upon the Ceremonies injoyned in the Liturgy as of another nature than those above-mentioned relating to Peace Order and Decency only namely as Rites of a Mystical or Sacramental signification and therefore have been rejected together with Popery at first by many of the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who yet we doubt not worship God decently and orderly and in the beauty of Holiness Quest Are the Nonconformists such a cross-grain'd Generation that it is the only way to bring them to Conformity for the Magistrate to forbid the use of the Ceremonies D. Answ I wish if his Majesty pleased tryal might be made in forbidding the Cross and Surplice the reading the Lessons out of the Apocrypha and the Old Translation of the Psalms oâ— David Quest Do not the Nonconformists hold that nothing may be done in the Worship of God but what is in joyned by him in his Word Deb. p. 101. edit 1. Answ They generally hold that nothing must be done as a part of Gods Worship nor as properly a medium cultus but they hold that the determination of meet circumstances necessary in genere is not necessary to be set down in the Word Vid. Mr. Baxt. his disputat about Ch. Governm and the Proposals of the Presbyterians to his Majesty Quest Do the Nonconformists Ministers hold the Church of England no true Church and the Ministers of it if Conformists no true Ministers and do they dislwade people from frequenting the Churches and hearing their Ministers setled in them Answ The Presbyterians have justified the calling of Ministers in the Church of England in their Jus Divinum Ministerii Anglicani they â—efuse not to communicate with the Publick Assemblies divers that sometimes keep private Meetings for Religious Exercises they and their Auditors go to Church also and joyn therein in praing and hearing and receiving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Quest Do the Nonconformists-Ministers hold all superiority of one Presbyter above another Antichristian Answ As to the Bishops of the Church of England invested with all that Power which they have and usually exercise in the Church of England without the joynt-advice and consent of the Presbytery we look upon them not as Jure Divino strictly but as his Majesties Deputies and Commissioners in Ecclesiasticall Affairs and since his Majesty is pleased to make them Lords can give them their Title and serve God and the Church under them Quest Is the Assembly in their Directory for Worship so much out in advising and directing Ministers to preach in the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit and of Power and are those Ministers guilty of error and presumption now-a-dayes who make this a petition in Prayer before their Sermons that they may be enabled so to preach See Deb. p. 5. edit 1. Answ The sense of the Author of the Debate and divers other Interpreter and the sense in which the Assembly and many other pious and learned Preachers use this Scripture 1 Cor 2.4 need not necessarily to exclude one the other Take Bishop Hall's Paraphrase upon the place My speech both in my private Exhortation and iâ— my publicly Preachings was not curiously plausible as if I would win with words of humane Eloquent and Wit but in plain and powerful expressions 〈◊〉 God's Spirit speaking in me and working in you 〈◊〉 me And the pious prudent and learned Bishop of Chester in his Ecclesiastes directing what kind of phrase a Minister must use in his preaching saith it must be affectionate and cordial 〈◊〉 proceeding from the heart and an experimental atquaintance with those Truths which we deliver adds this it to speak in the demonstration of thâ— Spirit and of Power Besides the learned Dâ— Hammond tells us in his Comment on the New Testament that divers places in the Old-Testament are said to be fulfilled in the New bâ— way of Accommodation And why may not this Scripture be used by Ministers by way of Accommodation also Do not the Sons of the Church pray for the Clergy of England as for God's own Tribe the Tribe of Levi Besides if you seriously consider the Context you may see cause not wholly to reject the other interpretation namely that of Mr. Dixon in loc Demonstrativâ— nibus Scriptura solida Veritatis quibus Spiritâ— potenter se exerebat operabatur in vestris animis Quest Do the Nonconforming-Ministers pre-end now to pray by the Spirit as if the Holy-Ghost should immediatly infuse method matter and words whilst they pray Answ Mr. Hollingworth sometime a prime Presbyterian in Lancashire shall answer for them They do not hold that they ought not to take bought before-hand what they should pray expecting that the Holy-Ghost should immediately inspire them with method matter and words of Prayer who ever said it was not they that prayed but the Holy-Ghost praying in them And yet in this duty as well as in others the Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God which is a Spirit of Grace and Supplication and because we know not what to ask he helpeth our infirmities and we may be said to pray in the Spirit not onely because the holy Spirit doth stir up warm and enlarge our affections in prayer but be brings oft times to our remembrance the savory and suit able phrases and passages of holy Writ especially the promises which are most pertinent to our purpose Why should any imagine that the evil spirit can have power to suggest evil thoughts or imaginations into us to distract and hinder us when we are praying and not the good and holy Spirit should suggest good thoughts and desires and that too in his own language I mean in Scripture-phrase and expressions bringing them at such a time to our remembrance Yea the Holy-Ghost saith that pious person restrains the petulancy and extravagancy of wit great swelling words of vanity vain bablings idle repetitions c. and he
Instruments of Cruelty are in their Habitations Cursed be their Anger for it was fierce and their Wrath for it wat cruel And we each one say O my Soul come not thou into their Secrets unto their Assemblies mine Honour be not thou united But let God divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel Mr. Bridge was not in Town then which may be supposed the Reason we find not his Name amongst the Subscribers As for W. B. whether his Writings be so faulty as they are charged to be in the Debates I cannot tell having not read them but a Conformable Doctor told me that he had searched them and that the Author of the Debate had dealt disingeniously in his quotations of him c. Quest. May not every whit as much be said for the Papists why they should be tolerated as to the publick exercise of their Religion as for Nonconformists Do not they profess all Loyalty to his Majesty and declare against all Rebellion Answ The Papists depend upon a forraign Power in Ecclesiastical Affairs superiour as they think to his Majesty And it was subscribed by twelve Bishops in Ireland as follows Their Religion is superstitious and idolatrous their Faith and Doctrine erronious and heretical their Church in respect of both Apostatical Whereas the Nonconformists whether Presbyters or Congregationists agree with the Church of England in the Doctrine of Faith and Sacraments differ not in any substantial part of Religion from her What the Papists practice hath been how dangerous to the Civil Peace the History of England in Q. Elizabeth's days can tell us That 't is impossible for any Nation to be free from Troubles or Treason so long as they suffer Jesuites amongst them saith Watson in his Quodlibets And that he and his Order were not so good and loyal as they pretended may be guessed from hence that he himself was afrerwards executed for Treason Moreover Papists cannot when they have power long live without persecuting Protestants saith a Reverend Doctor Hence may appear that we see K. H. III. of France stabb'd and lamn'd because he would not persecute them enough So the Answer to the Papists Apology p. 21. As for Quakers they may seem to be the very Spawn of the Romish Emissaries proselyted by them but made more dangerous to Magistrates and all Civil Society by this one Principle that they hold viz. That they ought to be guided and to act not by the Scripture nor according to the command of the Civil Magistrate or Spiritual Guides and Pastors but by and sudden Flash or Light within them I am not satisfied to have a hand in the Execution of the Sanguinary Laws against Papists yet should be loth to try how Sanguine or good natur'd they would be if they had power in their hands to execute the Writ De Haeretico comburendo If we may say of them as they use to say of Fire and Water They are good Servants I am sure 't is as true That they are but bad Masters Quest How can we agree to live quietly with these Nonconformists Are they not so much divided from us in their Judgement that they divide from us in their Language also and in fine would bring all things into a Babel of Confusion Cont. p. 1. Answ The greater number of them I presume speak as others do and conform to that ordinary phrase Well I thank God If any when enquired of about their Health say I am well through Mercy they do but as the French Protestants do they are surely few in comparison that say so commonly and I do not remember one Minister that useth to say so they that do possibly have recovered from some sickness or escaped some danger which occasions them to use this expression But if you will be critical some think it a sign of a greater humility to say I am well through mercy than the other I am well I thank God However it is not so liable to exception as to say I am well y' faith as I have heard that some Conformists do although Bishop Saunderson doth not approve of that language in common discourse We do not hold it unlawful to use the name of God in our Salutations as Boaz did and can say and pray God save the King as heartily as your selves I know â—o Nonconforming-Ministers that hold it unlawful to teach Children their Catechism Prayers lest they should take God's Name in vain And yet I must have leave to say that a reverend Bishop doth reckon that we sin against the third Commandment by an irreverend and customary mention of God's great and glorious Name upon trivial occasions and a learned Doctor in his Exposition of the third Commandment makes it a duty not to use the Name of God but with great reverence See Dr. Pat. Catech. Quest Are Nonconformists most guilty of breaking the third Commandment in the main sense See Cont p. 4. Answ Mr. Case Mr. Edwards and the London Ministers cited by the Author of the Debate in his Continuation all prove they were very tender of the breach of an Oath desirous to keep far from it themselves and to save others with fear plucking them out of the fire and the present ejected and dejected estate of the Nonconformists may testifie that they are such as fear an Oath The Presbyterians are bold to say in one of their Papers to his Majesty That the Obligation of the Covenant upon the Consciences of the Nation was not the weakest Instrument of his Return As to your citations out of Mr. John Goodwyn and Mr. John Lilborne I say there lyeth an Exception against the Witnesses in the Case as I suppose you might say if their Testimonies were produced against the Hierarchy Liturgy and Ceremonies Quest What may be the cause the Author of the Debate is so fierce against the Protestation taken by the Parliament before the War and which his late Majesty excepted not against when taken although he was then at Whitehall Answ The true Reason may be this because the House of Commons put out an Interpretation that by the Doctrine of the Church of England which they promised to maintain they meant onely the Doctrine in opposition to Popery and Popish Innovations and did not thereby oblige themselves or others to the maintenance of the Discipline and Government If that had been in 't is to be thought it would have gone down as easily with men of his way as the Et-caetera Oath did concerning which the Historian gives us this account That some Bishops pressed it on Ministers before the day required to take it by the Canon and enjoyned them to take it kneeling a Ceremony not exacted or observed in taking the Oath of Alleagiance and Supremacy Full. Hist 6.11 p. 17. Quest What is to be thought of the Continuation of the Friendly Debate Answ It seems to be an unfriendly Continuation of Debate and Strife contrary to the Act of Indempnity and to be a continued breach of
Laws once made rigorously to be put in execution necessarily and especially Laws concerning Ecclesiastical Affairs Answ Laws that are lawful and necessary to the Esse or Being of the Church or State are doubtless to be put in execution not so those always that tend to Order and Decency Supreme Governours may upon just occasion forbear inflicting the Penalties upon Offenders against penal Statutes Yea Excommunication that Great Church-Censure may be suspended when the major part of a Church are infected with some Errour or are guilty of some scandalous offence the end of Laws Ecclesiastical and Civil being the peace of Church and State where the execution of Laws may occasion more harm than good more disquet than peace there the supreme Power may for a time wave the exact and rigorous execution of them His Majesty in his Declaration to all his loving Subjects Decemb. 26.1662 published by the Advice of his Privy Council conceives the power of dispensing with the Penalty upon those who living peaceably do not Conform to be inherent in him Some Laws are made in terrorem like Rods in a School 'T is not intended that every Offender and every Offence should be presently punished according to the utmost severity of them The Common Law in some Cases seems to need a Chancery to moderate the rigor of it lest that summum jus prove summa injuria He who will not allow his Majesty to save some by his Prerogative who are cast by the Law robs him of a principal Flower of his Crown his very Crown and Glory and that is His CLEMENCY Quest. Were not the Old Puritans as they used to call the Nonconformists Enemies to the Kings Supremacy Answ In a Treatise of Learned Mr. Bradshaw who wrote of Justification there is a Protestation by them made of the Kings Supremacy in these words We hold and maintain the same Authority and Supremacy in all Causes and over all Persons Civil and Ecclesiastical granted to Queen Elizabeth to be due in full and ample manner without any limitation or qualification to the King and his Heirs and Successors for ever Neither is there to our knowledge any one of us but hath been most willing to subscribe and swear unto the same according to form of Statute And we desire that those that shall refuse the same may bear their own Iniquity Quest Were not the Nonconformists in former times disobedient to the Laws And did they not refuse to conform out of humour and stubbornness and not our of Conscience Answ The same Mr. Bradshaw in the same Treatise protests in their Name as followeth We never refused Obedience to any haves or Commandments of the King or State whatsoever but onely to such as we have proved or are ready to prove if we might be heard to be contrary to the Word of God And we are ready to take our solemn Oaths before the Throne of Justice That the onely Cause of our refusal of Obedience to those Canons of the Prelates for which roe are at present so extremely afflicted is meer Conscience and a fear to sin against God And if by due form of Reasoning we may be convinced in our Consciences of the cannery we are as willing at any Subjects in the Realm to obey and conform Quest. But is it at all material what the Nonconformists swear are not our present Nonconformists guilty of taking God's Name into their mouths backward and forward and never blush Vide Contin p. 18. Answ It was the conscience of an Oath and a care to prevent the great guilt of Perjury that made Dr. Hill one of the late Assembly when Vice-Chancelor of Cambridge and the University in those dayes to insert those explanatory clauses in the Oaths of those who took degrees Viz. Jurabis te haec omnia reliqua Academae Statuta quatenus ipsa ad te spectant vel fideliter observasse observaturum vel monitiones correctiones paenas dictorum Statutorum transgressoribus incumbentes sine contradictione quacunque humiliter subiisse aut subiturum ni sialiter per gratiam per Acaedemiam concessam dispensatum tecum fuerit sicut Te Deus adjuvet c. and again Senatus Cantabrigiensis decrevit declaravit eos omnes qui monitionibus correctionibus paenus Statutorum Legum Decretorum Ordinationum Injunctionum Laudabilium Consuetudinum hujus Academiae trangressoribus quovis modo Incumbentibus humiliter se submiserint nec esse nec habendos esse perjurii reos By which clauses 't is manifest that either active or passive obedience to the Statutes Orders and Customs of the Universities did save from the guilt of Perjury And confident I am that 't is the fear of an Oath that is the chief cause why many suffer the loss of their Livings at this day Quest. Is there not a good riddance of so many Mr. Scruples out of the Church And is there any want of able Preachers up and down in the Country now they are ejected Answ My Lord Bacon in his dayes thought there was a scarcity of able Preachers and yet there were not the tythe perhaps of Ministers silenced then to what are now And be thought then that the silencing of the Ministers for their Nonconformity was a punishment of the People rather than of the Minister He conceived then also that such Subscriptions might have been forborn as occasioned the silencing of divers of those Ministers Cons ab Eccl. Aff. Quest What if there were many places made void by the ejectment of Nonconformists may not those places be well filled by Conforming-Pluralists Answ My Lord Bacon saith In case the number of able Ministers were sufficient and the value of the Benefices were sufficient then Pluralities were in no sort tolerable And as for Nonresidents except it be just of necessary absence he saith it seemeth to be an abuse drawn out of covetousness and sloth for that men should live of the Flock they do not feed or at the Altar whereat they do not serve is a thing that can hardly receive just defence And to exercise the Office of a Pastor in matter of Word and Doctrine by deputation is a thing not warranted So he in his Treatise dedicated to King James about Ecclesiast Affairs For my own part I think the Poligamy of the Fathers or the Patriarchs of old as excusable as the Spiritual Polygamy of many of the Sons of our Church And to serve Cures of Souls meerly by Proxies and Deputies besides that it may seem to strengthen the Pope's plea for Universal Pastors whilst so many stand idle in the Market-place able and willing to take care of those Souls is a thing I shall not take upon me to justifie Let me add this also that 't is one Objection which hath been formerly made against the Liturgy That it occasions an ignorant dumb and a lazy Ministry but were it not for Pluralities and Non-residency and insufficient Livings there might be no place for such objection The Author
committed Surely they are as tolerable in a Church where the Supreme Power thinks good to establish that Order as are Chancellors Commissaries c. But in case that some Presbyterians of old held them of use in the Apostles days this alone without an Institution and an Injunction to perpetuate them doth not make them or any other Ecclesiastical Officers unalterable for we see that the Office of Widdows is laid aside in the Church notwithstanding Quest Did not the Presbyterians wholly lay aside the use of the Lords Supper And was it not for want of Ruling Elders Answ They celebrated the Lords Supper in London and that too in some Churches once a Month and frequently at Oxford and I suppose in many other places Possibly the expectation of a settlement might hinder the Administration of that Ordinance for a time in many places Bur I knew a Parish where it was a long time disused though desired because the Parishoners did not provide though oft urged unto it by the Minister decent and necessary Utensils for the Celebration of it Quest Do the Nonconformists decry all use of Reason in Theology Answ They use frequently Reasons in their Sermons Indeed they allow Reason but the second place in Divinity to Revelation they give the first Reason and Philosophy they make to be the Handmaids but Divinity they honour as their Soveraign Lady and Queen Reason is the Counsellor but Revelation is the Law-giver We say the Light of Reason is as the Light of a Glow-Worm or of a Candle or if you will needs have it as the Light of the Moon but the Light of Divine Revelation is as the Light of the Sun when it shineth in its full strength Dr. T. And with a reverend and learned Doctor we allow the use of a Candle although we would have it snuffed and when it is set up in the house we would not have the Window shut either to keep our or at least to darken the Light of the Sun We prefer feeding on Manna before feeding on Acorns and Husks the Commands of St. Paul before the Precepts of Plato the Mass of Gold in the Mine before a few pieces of Silver scattered here and there in the Studies of Philosophers Quest Do the Congregations of those that dissent from the established Worship consist mostly of Army Saints Answ I have heard one that hath reason to know upon many Accounts better than the Author of the Debate say That there is scarce a fifth person of those that meet privately that was engaged in the late Differences And that the greatest part of the late Army are at this day Members of Parochial Churches is an even Wager Quest Do the Arminians or Calvinists come nearest to the Doctrine of the Church of England Answ The profound pious and learned Doctor Samuel Ward that was the La. Margaret's Professor of Divinity in Cambridge whose Determinations are set out by the great pains and care of the Right Reverend Seth Lord Bishop of Sarisbury in a Sermon of his Ad Clerum and dedicated by himself to the University of Cambridge testifies That as the whole Church of God ever since St. Austine so in particular the National Church of England and the University of Cambridge from the Reformation and all the Professors except onely one Baro were against Arminius his Tenets And this Baro within two years was forced to leave the Chair by the Power and Authority of Archbishop Whitgift Illud etiam verè adjicere possum plus uni Augustino jam veterano in ista causa versatissimo tribuendum esse quà m centùm Corvinis Grotiis Vorstiis Bertiis Tilenis id genus recentioribus Dogmatistis Accedat illud coronidis loco Augustino semper ad baesisse hac ex-parte Ecclesiam Universalem ab ejus temporibus Ecclesiam item Anglicanam ab initio Reformationis c. Quest Is the case of the Donatists and the case of the Non-conformists alike Answ The Donatists as they had no cause in regard of the Faith by reason of any dangerous Doctrines or Practices imposed on them to cease from communicating with any part of the Catholick Church so they divided from the whole Church with the breach of Charity condemning it for no Church and drawing the Communion wholly to themselves The Nonconformists do not condemn the Church of England as no Church they do not confine the Communion to themselves they humbly pray a Reformation of some things which they conceive amiss and are willing to have Communion with them as Parts of the Catholick Church saving the Practices wherein they differ they leave them to their Liberty and desire a Liberty for themselves to serve God according to their Consciences The Presbyterians shewed their Charity in their earnest endeavours to save the life of Dr. Hewit an Episcopal Dr for which purpose they joyned in an Address to O. C. the only Address they ever made unto him Neither Presbyterians nor Congregationists charge the Episcopalians for being Schismaticks because they do not communicate with their Congregations and yet they look upon themselves as true Churches of Christ and both for Doctrine and Discipline to come as near the Scripture-Patern as themselves They offered to Unite and Reconcile with the Episcopal-Clergy upon Christian terms before His Majesties Return and since As for out Brethren of New England they are of Age let them answer for themselves As for our Congreational Brethren at home I lately heard that Dr. Goodwin should profess to hold Communion even with the Lutheran Churches And Dr. Owen professeth against all Impositions and that 't is his Judgment That the Episcopals and Presbyterians be left to worship God as they judge in their Consciences best That for his part he judgeth no man for his Conformity provided he be not a Persecuter of those that cannot Finally The Presbyterians for themselves desire much rather a Reformation or well stated Comprehension than a Toleration and are against Schism and Separation truly so called as much as any which they have sufficiently evidenced by their constantly declared Opinions and Practice They would be glad to see the day when being eased of burdensome Impositions they might have opportunity to manifest this their sincere desire of Union and Coalition with the Church of England A Postscript to the Author of the Friendly Debate SIR YOu have dealt with us as the Jewes did with our Blessed Saviour blindfolded us smitten us in effect bid us Prophesie who it is that smote us Some ghesses have been who you are by the roughness of your hand and the smartness of the blow I have not taken upon me thus to shoot in the dark and yet pretend to hit the Mark Nor will I go about to pull off the Vizor you put upon your own face but to wipe off the dirt which you have cast on ours To this purpose I pray you after these premised Reflections by me on some Passages in your Friendly Debate c.
a better man than ever he thought him to be there were so many good things charged upon him And another Presbyterian now a Nonconformist preaching to the same Auditors preached that Antichristian and Babylonian were terms sooner imputed or charged than proved But if the Nonconforming-Ministers or People were yet ignorant and to seek for scoffing and reviling language they might have a Dictionary of such hard words out of the Friendly Debate If there be in Private-meetings that use railing and reviling speeches as too many too often have is publick Congregations I would rather advise people to sit quietly at home if they will not go to Church than to go or step out of doors to learn their language I do not love a biting tongue and I take a black mouth to be as venemous in a man as 't is accounted wholsom in a dog And if there be any printed Book wiâ—h such railing speeches or phrases in them I will promise you it shall never have my Imprimatur without an Index expurgatorius in the next Edition Quest Is the Divinity of the Nonconformists a Phrase-Divinity and in case their Books and Sermons are not fill'd with foul language is there any thing besides fine words and new phrases in them Answ There was something besides words in the Old Nonconformists witness the writings of Mr. Dod Mr. Ball Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw c. And doubtless there is matter and that good matter and sound speech that need not to be ashamed in the Writings of Nonconformists of this Generation witness the Books written by Mr. Baxter Dr. Manton Mr. Caryll Mr. Allen Dr. Owen Mr. Pool c. they hold to Scripture-expressions and to the terms of sound words which they have received from the most serious solid pious Bishops and Doctors of the Chair Professors at home and abroad in former times yea the Nonconforming-Presbyterians and Congregational Ministers profess to agree with our Articles of Religion of the Church of England in all things concerning the Doctrine of Faith and Ceremonies And is all this but Phrase-Divinity The Author of the Debate and divers other of the present Conformists may as justly be charged for new Divinity new minted words in Divinity new phrases and modes of expressing themselves in Sermons and Writings and these too less conform to the language of the holy Scripture our own Articles and Homilies the Harmony of Confessions of the Reformed Churches and our ancient Bishops and Doctors The Author of the Debate though he seems to be the Bishops Advocate yet his Writings shew him more an Episcopian than an Episcopalian and 't is easie to see from what forge they have their new Divinity and new Theological Dictionary Quest. Were not the Nonconformists the cause of the strange and new Doctrines and Opinions and of phantastical words and phrases in preaching and writing Ans I grant the taking down the old Mound or Hedge and not setting a new one in the room was an occasion that many erronious persons like wild beasts did get into the Vineyard and that some strange Doctrines Phancies Phrases and Whimses were vented in the Times of War and late Confusions but I say that these things are not to be charged upon the Presbyterians for if they had had power to their principles and purposes they would doubtless have raised up a Mound or Fence against such Errors Fancies and Follies as strong as that the Parliament removed I have heard it observed that of all Churches no Church hath had fewer Heresies and Heterodoxies spring up or at least prosper in it than the Church of Scotland and that this was acknowledged by King James Quest Were all that took the Covenant bound thereby to endeavour to introduce the Government of the Church of Scotland into England because they obliged themselves to maintain and defend Religion in the Church of Scotland and to reform Religion in the Church of England Vid. Contin p. 168. Answ No. They engaged only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might to preserve Religion in the Church of Scotland against the Common Enemy notwithstanding which the Scots might reform ought that was amiss or defective with his Majesties leave and consent in a legal manner And the English Covenanters were not bound to model the Church-Government in England according to the pattern of the Kirk of Scotland but according to the Word of God and the best Reformed Churches Whether Scotland or Holland or Geneva c. was the best Reformed Church was not determined And the English were not engaged in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might by the Covenant to follow the Model of any one of these or all the Reformed Churches in any thing disagreeing from the Word of God and in case a primitive Episcopacy that is Church-Government by a Bishop with a Presbytery as his Counsellors and Assistants prove most agreeable to the Word of God they were bound to set up onely in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might that Government in the Church of England Notwithstanding what the Earl of Bristol when Lord Digby hath written in his Letters to Sir Kenelm Digby viz. He that would reduce the Church now to the Form of Government in the most primitive times should not take in my Opinion the best nor the wisest course I am sure not the safest for he would be found pecking towards the Presbytery of Scotland which for my part I believe in point of Government hath a greater resemblance than yours or ours to the first Age of Christs Church But whatever was the meaning of the Imposers or Takers of the Covenant in those days I have heard an eminent Person a Doctor that had taken it though a Nonconformist declare That he was not bound by it to endeavour any other Reformation than what he had been obliged unto if he never had taken the Covenant that he is not bound to use any unlawful or seditious means or endeavours to bring about a Reformation That the Law of the Land is the Rule to judge by what means or endeavours are unlawful and seditious Quest Do not the Presbyterians play fast and loose and turn with the wind Was not the time once when they held Ruling Elders to be Jure Divino but now they hold no such matter Answ I believe the Scottish Presbyterians were and still are of that Judgement that Ruling Elders are Jure Divino but I knew few English if any that held that Office so save onely in a large sence as many Episcopalians now hold Bishops to be Jure Divino that is a lawful Government not repugnant to the Word of God However 't is said and that by no mean Scholar That Geneva did not first institute those Officers but only restored them And I have read that it was acknowledged by a great Prelate That the Church had in every Church certain Seniors to whom the Government of the Church was