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A40102 A vindication of the Friendly conference, between a minister and a parishioner of his inclining unto Quakerism, &c. from the exceptions of Thomas Ellwood, in his pretended answer to the said conference / by the same author. Fowler, Edward, 1632-1714.; Ellwood, Thomas, 1639-1713. 1678 (1678) Wing F1729; ESTC R20275 188,159 354

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I hope these scandalous Ministers will prove but few when compared with such as truly thirst after the honour of God in a faithful discharge of their duty Here you may have a full view of the Quaker's honesty Par. But says he however the Priests have fed the People it is evident the People have fed the Priests well for they are grown fat and wanton c. p. 3. Min. But while such a number of the Priests are so slenderly provided for And while the People are so wanton as to kick at their Lawful Pastors it may be easily inferr'd who is the better fed of the two Par. Next he comes to enquire into the causes why the People are not profited under your Ministry We read says he of some in former times who did not profit the People at all and the reason thereof is also given c. In the 23d of Jeremiah vers 30. the Lord by the Prophet saith Therefore behold I am against the Prophets that steal my Word every one from his Neighbour Behold I am against the Prophets saith the Lord that use their Tongues and say He saith Behold I am against them that prophesie false dreams saith the Lord and do tell them and cause my People to err by their lyes and by their lightness yet I sent them not nor commanded them therefore they shall not profit this People at all saith the Lord v. 32. Here the very Ground and Reason why that Ministry did not profit nay why it was rendred uncapable of profiting the People at all is most plainly given by God himself viz. He sent them not nor commanded them p. 4. Min. That this Scripture does not reach his purpose will be evident if we consider 1. That this non-proficiency of some of the People do's not inferr that we are not sent seeing it may proceed from other causes In the careless hearers of Ieremiah it proceeded not from any corruption in his Doctrine which was Divine nor of his Life which was Holy but from the hardness of the Peoples hearts in that they would not bearken In the hearers of the false Prophets it proceeded from their dreams lyes and lightness which they taught and to which the People trusted 2. That this Scripture is ignorantly and injuriously applied to the present Ministry appears in that those false Prophets perswaded the People and that to the ruine of that Nation that Jerusalem should not be destroyed that they should neither see Sword nor Famine Which was an Errand upon which God never sent them Besides they were a company of Fanatick Enthusiasts who cheated the People by false pretences to extraordinary inspirations I have dreamed I have dreamed was their canting note Not to profit the People then is in the true sense of this Scripture not to secure them from the Captivity and Calamities hanging over that Nation Now let us examine how truly this Scripture is applied to the present Ministry Do We come with any new Errand to the World or pretend to extraordinary inspirations to confirm it as those did Or do We Preach peace to impenitent sinners No the contrary is well known So the words do rebound upon the Quakers themselves while in their strange doctrines and misconstructions of Holy Scripture they are guilty of the same fault with those lying Prophets in saying The Lord saith when he hath not said and in their presumptuous pretences to Revelation to confirm it as also in opposing the true Ministers of God as those Fanaticks opposed Ieremiah Par. But he denies your Ministry when he saith Hath God sent thene or do they send one another That they are Ministers of Mans making common experience shews page 6. Min. I answer The Ministry in general is distinguisht into Ordinary and extraordinary Thus it was under the Law and under the Gospel too Of old the Priesthood belonged to the head of every Family challenged by a right of primogeniture But when the House of Israel multiplied into many Families it pleased God for the more advantageous settlement of his Church and the better Government thereof to devolve the Priesthood upon Aaron and to call him to the same in an extraordinary manner by a Commission from Heaven to Moses for his Consecration and to settle that Priesthood successively upon his Posterity without any further need of an extraordinary Call to the Priests of succeeding Generations Such too was the Evangelical Ministry For Aaron's Priesthood being antiquated The Apostles were called to their Function in an extraordinary manner even by Christ himself and by the visible descent of the Holy Ghost were accordingly qualified for the discharge of it Yet even in the Apostles days this Extraordinary Call ceased For Timothy and Titus were Ordain'd by imposition of hands and were commanded so to Ordain others by which means the Ministry was by the Divine Ordinance to descend to all Ages in an orderly succession though not in one Family as Aaron's did These things thus premised do determine our present case as followeth He that is sent according to the order appointed by God in Holy Scripture though by the Ministry of men is not a Minister of man's making but of God's But both the Priests of the Law and the Priests of the Gospel though consecrated and Ordained by the Ministry of Men were sent according to the order appointed by God Therefore they were not Ministers of Man's making but of God's and by him truly call'd and sent Were Timothy and Titus Ministers only of Man's making because they were ordain'd by imposition of hands And if many of the people did not profit by their Ministry as many of the Cretian's did not by Titus's was the fault think you in their not being sent Par. No sure Min. Do you suppose T. E. himself could be ignorant of a truth so obvious Par. Methinks he should not Min. What then should he mean by saying We send one another and by that common experience which he says shews that we are Ministers of Man's making Par. What can he mean by it but your going to the Bishop for Orders as common experience shews you do Min. Truly his words stand very fair for this meaning and therefore not only you but doubtless his whole Fraternity and many others do so take it and through ignorance may be corrupted by it and made to believe We are not sent by God because ordained by the Ministry of Men. Par. Indeed I cannot deny but this passage brought me under some scruples till you gave me this satisfaction Min. If T. E. could not be ignorant in so plain a Case what can be his design here Whatever a Man pretends to mean by any of his expressions yet to set them down in such terms as will impose upon vulgar Readers and engage them in error can surely be no upright dealing Par. No how should it But if says he speaking still of the Ministers of England they ministred by the
the Ministry I should be glad to understand the form and manner of it Min. To satisfy you that all care imaginable is taken by the wisdom and piety of our Church to prevent the admission of scandalous Persons into holy orders and to promote the honour and ends of our sacred Function You are to understand First that there are certain times appointed for Fasting and Prayer to invoke God to guide the Bishops and Pastors of his Flock faithfully and wisely to make choice of fit persons to serve in the sacred Ministry of his Church and this is according to the primitive Practice Acts 13. 3. Then due care is order'd to be taken for the examination of the Abilities of such persons as come to be ordain'd Then Certificates and Testimonials must be produced concerning their Life and Conversation When they are presented to the Bishop for Ordination he in most solemn manner charges the Arch-Deacon to take heed whom he presents c. And if the people have any thing to object against any of them they are required to come forth in the name of God and to shew what the Crime or Impediment is After Prayers and the reading of such Scriptures as are chosen for the occasion the Bishop in a solemn speech publickly exhorts them in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ to have in remembrance into how high a Dignity and to how weighty an office and charge they are called that is to say to be Messengers Watchmen and Stewards of the Lord c. Then he bids them have it printed in their remembrance how great a treasure is committed to their charge that is the sheep of Christ which he bought with his death and for whom he shed his blood And if the Church or any member thereof take any hurt c. by their negligence he reminds them of the greatness of the fault and the horrible punishment which will ensue And that they may be excited to the greater care and diligence they are put in mind not only of the end and excellency but of the difficulty also of their Office as well to shew themselves dutiful and thankful unto that Lord who hath placed them in so high a dignity as also to beware that neither they themselves offend nor be occasion that others offend Next he tells them they cannot have a mind and will thereto of themselves for that Will and Ability is given of God alone and therefore that they ought and have need to pray earnestly for his holy Spirit And be their Learning never so great and their Testimonials never so credible yet are they not to be ordain'd till they have given engagement in the presence of God and the Congregation for the faithful exercise of their duty and Function by solemn promises and positive answers to several Questions propounded to them by the Bishop First Whether they trust that they are inwardly moved by the holy Ghost to take upon them that Office to serve God for the promoting his Glory and the edifying of his Church to which each of them answers I trust so Then he enquires of them Whether they unfeignedly beleive that the holy Scriptures contain all Doctrines necessary to salvation And for the time to come Whether they are determin'd to teach nothing as necessary to salvation but what they shall be perswaded may be proved from thence Whether they will be faithful always to minister the Doctrine and Sacraments and discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded c. Whether they will be ready with all faithful diligence to banish and drive away all erroneous and strange Doctrines contrary to God's word and use both publick and private Exhortations as well to the sick as to the whole within their Cures c. Whether they will be diligent in prayers and reading the holy Scriptures and in such studies as help to the knowledg of the same laying aside the study of the world and the flesh Whether they will be diligent to frame and fashion themselves and families according to the doctrine of Christ and to make themselves wholsome examples and patterns to the flock of Christ Whether they will maintain and set forward as much as in them lies quietness peace and love among all Christian people c. And lastly Whether they will obey the Godly admonitions of their Ordinary and other chief Ministers to whom is committed the charge and Government over them To all these they answer and promise They will so do the Lord being their helper Then are they by Prayer and Imposition of hands according to the Apostolical rule and practice ordained into their respective Functions Now judg what reason this bold man had to besplatter so wise and pious a Constitution and by Consequence to affront the King and Parliament who have so conscientiously establisht it by Law But let me advise you to read the Office it self where you will be still more fully informed Par. I have given you great attention and I must freely confess from what you have already told me that this form of your ordination is a most solemn serious and pious service far beyond what I ever knew or imagin'd of it And now I begin to blame my self for taking things so much upon trust and for believing every tale that others have told me as if this Church were an enemy to the power of Godliness For not weighing things impartially I became very much prejudic'd against it and when I heard others rail I learnt by their example to do so too Min. Therefore I hope hereafter you will be more just to examine things before you censure them And for this end I have been so express in particulars lest you should neglect to read and still go on as many do to speak evil of those things which you * know not Here you may note how unjust and disingenuous our Adversaries are who designedly conceal the excellency of our Constitution while they exasperate ignorant people against it And I hope hereafter you will beware of them Par. Your counsel is very reasonable only I am thinking it will be said that the faults of scandalous Ministers are the more aggravated by their walking contrary to such principles and engagements Min. The Sin of these men will lie at their own doors I am not justifying any such but or Mother the Church of England from whom you see they learn no such thing And though there be some bad as there ever were and will be in the purest Churches after the greatest care is taken yet does it detract nothing at all from the honour of those other of the Clergy who give all faithful diligence to live up to their excellent Principles and to Act according to their Promises and Engagements Par. Whereas you affirmed to me that they who make the Efficacy of the divine Ordinances to depend on the Worthiness of the Persons concerned in them are worse than the Papists and