Selected quad for the lemma: opinion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
opinion_n	father_n	presbyter_n	valid_a	12	3	16.1347	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78447	The censures of the church revived. In the defence of a short paper published by the first classis within the province of Lancaster ... but since printed without their privity or consent, after it had been assaulted by some gentlemen and others within their bounds ... under the title of Ex-communicatio excommunicata, or a Censure of the presbyterian censures and proceedings, in the classis at Manchester. Wherein 1. The dangerousness of admitting moderate episcopacy is shewed. ... 6. The presbyterian government vindicated from severall aspersions cast upon it, ... In three full answers ... Together with a full narrative, of the occasion and grounds, of publishing in the congregations, the above mentioned short paper, and of the whole proceedings since, from first to last.	Harrison, John, 1613?-1670.; Allen, Isaac, 17th cent.	1659 (1659)	Wing C1669; Thomason E980_22; ESTC R207784	289,546	380

settle_v a_o government_n in_o the_o church_n we_o do_v not_o judge_v you_o to_o be_v so_o irrational_a as_o to_o be_v for_o a_o government_n and_o yet_o deny_v subjection_n to_o it_o whence_o also_o it_o be_v clear_a that_o that_o be_v not_o to_o be_v condemn_v in_o we_o which_o you_o will_v justify_v in_o yourselves_o yet_o about_o this_o also_o in_o this_o your_o reply_n there_o be_v deep_a silence_n but_o thus_o we_o have_v show_v how_o you_o be_v please_v to_o several_a thing_n in_o our_o answer_n to_o say_v nothing_o as_o it_o will_v be_v evident_a to_o the_o reader_n you_o say_v as_o good_a as_o nothing_o in_o sundry_a place_n where_o you_o will_v seem_v to_o say_v something_o and_o yet_o you_o will_v be_v think_v to_o say_v what_o may_v be_v sufficient_a to_o give_v we_o satisfaction_n for_o in_o your_o second_o paper_n speak_v to_o one_o head_n of_o our_o answer_n sc_fw-la that_o about_o rule_a elder_n you_o say_v you_o will_v proceed_v to_o show_v we_o that_o lay-elder_n as_o you_o call_v they_o be_v not_o mean_v in_o the_o text_n by_o we_o allege_v brief_o thus_o but_o more_o large_o hereafter_o if_o what_o be_v comprehend_v in_o this_o paper_n be_v not_o judge_v satisfactory_a and_o yet_o when_o you_o shall_v come_v in_o this_o reply_n in_o the_o next_o section_n to_o make_v this_o appear_v more_o full_o you_o say_v nothing_o to_o the_o text_n we_o urge_v but_o only_o that_o they_o be_v too_o general_a to_o prove_v our_o roll_a presbytery_n out_o of_o and_o tell_v we_o of_o wrest_v the_o scripture_n with_o such_o like_a expression_n suitable_a to_o your_o way_n of_o reply_v all_o along_o and_o which_o we_o doubt_v not_o but_o the_o wise_a reader_n will_v of_o himself_o observe_v only_o we_o think_v it_o requisite_a upon_o the_o occasion_n you_o here_o give_v we_o to_o mind_v he_o of_o it_o that_o he_o may_v the_o better_o observe_v you_o through_o your_o whole_a reply_n but_o we_o shall_v now_o examine_v whether_o we_o have_v not_o just_a cause_n to_o be_v offend_v at_o you_o for_o your_o call_a presbytery_n a_o common_a fold_n one_o of_o the_o reason_n which_o we_o g●ve_v you_o mention_v and_o that_o indeed_o which_o be_v the_o chief_a yet_o there_o be_v another_o give_v in_o that_o parenthesis_n which_o you_o touch_v not_o on_o sc_n that_o out_o of_o respect_n to_o the_o authority_n ordain_v it_o you_o may_v have_v use_v a_o more_o civil_a expression_n but_o this_o it_o seem_v you_o have_v no_o mind_n to_o meddle_v with_o the_o authority_n of_o that_o parliament_n that_o settle_v the_o presbyterian_a government_n be_v of_o little_a esteem_n with_o those_o of_o you_o that_o be_v either_o actual_o engage_v with_o or_o friend_n unto_o the_o party_n that_o fight_v against_o it_o and_o whereupon_o it_o be_v no_o great_a wonder_n that_o you_o omit_v this_o reason_n of_o our_o offence_n but_o the_o other_o you_o speak_v to_o and_o that_o with_o some_o more_o freedom_n then_o do_v become_v you_o as_o we_o shall_v show_v anon_o this_o other_o reason_n be_v this_o consider_v the_o word_n presbytery_n be_v a_o know_a scripture_n expression_n 1_o tim._n 4._o and_o interpret_v by_o sundry_a of_o the_o father_n as_o we_o do_v as_o have_v be_v declare_v before_o you_o may_v have_v use_v a_o more_o civil_a expression_n in_o answer_n unto_o this_o 1._o you_o tell_v we_o the_o father_n be_v different_a in_o the_o sense_n and_o interpretation_n of_o this_o word_n presbytery_n in_o the_o scripture_n expression_n 1_o tim._n 4._o and_o we_o must_v tell_v you_o that_o of_o what_o low_a and_o cheap_a ability_n soever_o we_o may_v be_v account_v with_o you_o yet_o this_o different_a interpretation_n of_o this_o place_n whereof_o you_o will_v seem_v to_o inform_v we_o out_o of_o the_o father_n we_o have_v be_v long_o since_o acquaint_v with_o only_o when_o you_o allege_v the_o greek_a father_n as_o ignatius_n chrysostome_n theodoret_n theophilac●_n oecumenius_n and_o other_o and_o some_o few_o of_o the_o latin_n also_o take_v the_o word_n presbytery_n for_o the_o company_n of_o presbyter_n i._n e._n bishop_n who_o lie_v hand_n on_o the_o new_a make_v bishop_n or_o priest_n you_o must_v hereupon_o 1._o acknowledge_v that_o these_o father_n hold_v bishop_n and_o presbyter_n to_o be_v all_o one_o else_o how_o can_v they_o understand_v by_o presbyter_n the_o bishop_n who_o lay_v hand_n on_o the_o new_a make_v bishop_n or_o priest_n you_o do_v here_o represent_v they_o to_o explain_v the_o word_n presbyter_n by_o bishop_n and_o the_o word_n bishop_n by_o priest_n which_o word_n be_v the_o same_o in_o sense_n with_o presbyter_n which_o be_v manifest_o to_o make_v bishop_n and_o presbyter_n all_o one_o this_o we_o desire_v to_o be_v take_v notice_n of_o because_o when_o you_o may_v come_v hereafter_o to_o be_v press_v with_o it_o we_o fear_v you_o that_o be_v so_o ready_a to_o charge_v we_o therewith_o will_v your_o selve●_n run_v back_o and_o eat_v your_o own_o word_n 2._o you_o confess_v that_o they_o expound_v this_o word_n touch_v the_o company_n of_o presbyter_n which_o be_v enough_o for_o our_o vindication_n when_o we_o say_v that_o 1_o tim_n 4_o be_v interpret_v by_o sundry_a of_o the_o father_n as_o we_o do_v 3._o and_o whereas_o you_o say_v they_o take_v it_o for_o the_o company_n of_o presbyter_n i._n e._n bishop_n who_o lay_v hand_n on_o the_o new_a make_v bishop_n or_o priest_n explain_v the_o word_n presbyter_n by_o bishop_n and_o again_o the_o word_n bishop_n by_o priest_n that_o be_v a_o quipollent_a to_o the_o word_n presbyter_n you_o must_v hence_o be_v force_v to_o confess_v that_o these_o father_n acknowledge_v the_o ordination_n by_o presbyter_n only_o to_o be_v valid_a they_o by_o their_o explication_n of_o themselves_o by_o you_o allege_v make_v bishop_n and_o presbyter_n who_o without_o controversy_n lay_v on_o hand_n all_o one_o and_o therefore_o if_o you_o here_o be_v of_o the_o mind_n of_o these_o father_n by_o yourselves_o produce_v you_o must_v retract_v your_o opinion_n former_o declare_v with_o much_o confidence_n against_o the_o ordination_n by_o presbyter_n only_o there_o be_v no_o place_n for_o you_o here_o to_o evade_v except_o you_o shall_v say_v that_o the_o father_n by_o you_o allege_v and_o explain_v the_o word_n presbyter_n by_o bishop_n or_o you_o expound_v they_o so_o by_o bishop_n understand_v such_o bishop_n as_o be_v superior_a to_o presbyter_n either_o in_o order_n and_o jurisdiction_n or_o at_o least_o in_o degree_n and_o who_o you_o will_v have_v to_o concur_v at_o the_o least_o and_o preside_v in_o the_o ordination_n or_o it_o be_v null_a and_o void_a but_o this_o be_v to_o say_v that_o the_o father_n expound_v the_o scripture_n do_v make_v it_o a_o nose_n of_o wax_n and_o in_o effect_n to_o assert_v that_o quidlibet_fw-la may_v be_v draw_v ex_fw-la quolibet_fw-la for_o if_o by_o presbyter_n that_o be_v express_o mention_v not_o presbyter_n themselves_o but_o another_o and_o distinct_a sort_n of_o person_n be_v to_o be_v understand_v never_o call_v in_o scripture_n by_o that_o name_n may_v we_o not_o by_o this_o rule_n of_o exposition_n make_v the_o scripture_n speak_v what_o we_o please_v according_a to_o our_o own_o fancy_n and_o contrary_a to_o the_o express_a word_n of_o the_o text_n to_o say_v nothing_o that_o this_o evasion_n if_o admit_v will_v not_o help_v the_o matter_n at_o all_o see_v you_o do_v here_o represent_v the_o father_n not_o only_o explain_v the_o word_n presbyter_n by_o bishop_n but_o again_o explain_v the_o word_n bishop_n by_o priest_n the_o same_o word_n in_o sense_n with_o presbyter_n and_o so_o make_v they_o every_o way_n one_o because_o they_o make_v these_o word_n bishop_n and_o presbyter_n mutual_o to_o explain_v one_o another_o 2._o we_o have_v do_v with_o the_o different_a interpretation_n of_o the_o father_n upon_o the_o text_n 1_o tim._n 4._o and_o now_o we_o come_v to_o calvin_n who_o you_o bring_v in_o here_o as_o contrary_a to_o himself_o in_o that_o exposition_n that_o he_o give_v upon_o it_o but_o we_o see_v you_o have_v a_o mind_n to_o asperse_v he_o though_o he_o be_v so_o far_o above_o you_o in_o regard_n of_o that_o deserve_a praise_n that_o he_o have_v throughout_o the_o church_n that_o it_o be_v not_o your_o bite_n at_o he_o that_o can_v detract_v any_o thing_n from_o he_o else_o you_o will_v not_o have_v say_v that_o in_o his_o comment_n upon_o this_o place_n he_o be_v as_o far_o opposite_a to_o his_o judgement_n deliver_v in_o his_o institution_n as_o high_a noon_n be_v to_o midnight_n for_o however_o in_o his_o comment_n upon_o this_o place_n he_o first_o say_v presbyterium_fw-la qui_fw-la hic_fw-la collectivum_fw-la nomen_fw-la esse_fw-la putant_fw-la pro_fw-la collegio_fw-la presbyterorum_fw-la positum_fw-la recté_fw-fr sentiunt_fw-la meo_fw-la judicio_fw-la yet_o he_o add_v tametsi_fw-la omnibus_fw-la

all_o synod_n promiscuous_o to_o be_v admit_v so_o he_o will_v have_v their_o decree_n that_o be_v produce_v to_o be_v examine_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o scripture_n notwithstanding_o that_o reverence_n which_o he_o from_o who_o therein_o we_o differ_v not_o do_v give_v they_o but_o you_o may_v see_v he_o further_o go_v on_o and_o add_v utinam_fw-la eum_fw-la omnes_fw-la modum_fw-la servarent_fw-la quem_fw-la praescrib●t_fw-la augustinus_n libro_fw-la adversus_fw-la maximinum_n tertio_fw-la nam_fw-la cum_fw-la hunc_fw-la haereticum_fw-la de_fw-la syncdorum_fw-la decretis_fw-la litigantem_fw-la breviter_fw-la vult_fw-la compescere_fw-la nec_fw-la ●go_fw-la inquit_fw-la nicenam_fw-la synodum_fw-la tibi_fw-la nec_fw-la tu_fw-la mihi_fw-la a●iminensem_fw-la debes_fw-la tanquam_fw-la praejudicaturus_fw-la objicere_fw-la nec_fw-la ego_fw-la huius_fw-la authoritate_fw-la nec_fw-la tu_fw-la illius_fw-la detineris_fw-la scripturarum_fw-la authoritatibus_fw-la non_fw-la quorumcunque_fw-la propriis_fw-la sed_fw-la quae_fw-la utrisque_fw-la sunt_fw-la commune_v res_fw-la cum_fw-la re_fw-la causa_fw-la cum_fw-la causa_fw-la ratio_fw-la cum_fw-la rotione_fw-la certet_fw-la the_o intelligent_a reader_n will_v hereby_o sufficient_o perceive_v that_o however_o calvin_n give_v due_a respect_n unto_o council_n yet_o both_o he_o and_o augustine_n who_o he_o cite_v will_v have_v all_o controversy_n touch_v matter_n of_o religion_n to_o be_v determine_v by_o the_o authority_n or_o testimony_n of_o scripture_n and_o however_o he_o present_o after_o say_v that_o those_o ancient_a synod_n the_o nicene_n constantinopolitan_n the_o first_o ephesine_n and_o that_o at_o chalcedon_n and_o the_o like_a we_o do_v willing_o receive_v and_o reverence_v as_o holy_a quantum_fw-la attinet_fw-la ad_fw-la fidei_fw-la d●gmata_fw-la so_o far_o as_o concern_v the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n let_v that_o be_v mark_v and_o acknowledge_v that_o they_o contain_v nothing_o but_o the_o pure_a native_a interpretation_n of_o the_o scripture_n yet_o what_o be_v that_o to_o what_o you_o will_v father_n upon_o he_o viz._n that_o there_o can_v be_v no_o better_a sense_n nor_o interpretation_n of_o the_o scripture_n than_o what_o be_v give_v by_o the_o father_n in_o such_o council_n all_o that_o calvin_n say_v be_v that_o he_o acknowledge_v these_o council_n do_v in_o doctrinal_n right_o interpret_v the_o scripture_n but_o he_o will_v not_o have_v their_o interpretation_n of_o scripture_n for_o to_o be_v the_o rule_n of_o its_o interpretation_n as_o in_o your_o next_o paper_n when_o there_o be_v a_o difference_n about_o interpretation_n of_o scripture_n you_o assert_v it_o aught_o to_o be_v and_o which_o there_o you_o allege_v this_o place_n of_o calvin_n will_v represent_v he_o to_o patronize_v and_o for_o which_o purpose_n you_o do_v also_o seem_v to_o allege_v he_o here_o although_o the_o reader_n by_o what_o have_v be_v quote_v out_o of_o he_o in_o this_o section_n will_v see_v the_o contrary_n beside_o that_o he_o do_v not_o say_v touch_v matter_n of_o discipline_n and_o government_n which_o be_v the_o thing_n only_o in_o controversy_n betwixt_o you_o and_o we_o those_o council_n he_o speak_v of_o do_v contain_v nothing_o but_o the_o pure_a and_o native_a interpretation_n of_o the_o scripture_n but_o limit_v the_o same_o to_o doctrinal_n as_o we_o have_v show_v and_o therefore_o we_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o reader_n to_o judge_v whether_o you_o have_v thus_o far_o deal_v fair_o with_o calvin_n or_o no._n you_o also_o quote_v the_o thirteen_o section_n of_o this_o nine_o chapter_n lib._n 4._o but_o there_o we_o find_v only_o that_o he_o express_v himself_o thus_o nos_fw-la certe_fw-la libenter_fw-la concedimus_fw-la si_fw-la quo_fw-la de_fw-fr dogmate_fw-it incidat_fw-la disceptat_fw-la nullum_fw-la esse_fw-la nec_fw-la melius_fw-la nec_fw-la certius_fw-la remedium_fw-la quam_fw-la si_fw-la verorum_fw-la episcopo●um_fw-la synodus_fw-la conveniat_fw-la ubi_fw-la controversum_fw-la dogma_fw-la excutiatur_fw-la he_o acknowledge_v then_o that_o when_o a_o controversy_n do_v arise_v there_o be_v no_o better_o nor_o sure_a remedy_n for_o the_o determine_v it_o then_o by_o a_o synod_n of_o true_a bishop_n which_o be_v the_o bishop_n mention_v in_o tim●thy_n and_o titus_n in_o calvin_n sense_n but_o yet_o he_o conclude_v that_o very_a section_n thus_o hoc_fw-la autem_fw-la perpetuum_fw-la esse_fw-la nego_fw-la ut_fw-la vera_fw-la &_o certa_fw-la sit_fw-la scripturae_fw-la interpretatio_fw-la quae_fw-la con●ilii_fw-la suffragiis_fw-la fuerit_fw-la recepta_fw-la i._n e._n but_o this_o i_o deny_v to_o be_v perpetual_a that_o that_o be_v a_o true_a and_o certain_a interpretation_n of_o scripture_n which_o have_v be_v receive_v by_o the_o suffrage_n of_o a_o council_n and_o if_o we_o shall_v here_o press_v you_o to_o that_o which_o calvin_n say_v as_o touch_v this_o point_n see_v it_o have_v be_v determine_v by_o the_o late_a synod_n or_o assembly_n of_o divine_n 10._o that_o as_o there_o be_v in_o the_o jewish_a church_n elder_n of_o the_o people_n join_v with_o the_o priest_n &_o levite_n in_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n as_o appear_v in_o the_o 2_o chron._n 19_o 8_o 9_o 10_o so_o christ_n have_v institute_v a_o government_n and_o governor_n ecclesiastical_a in_o the_o church_n have_v furnish_v some_o in_o his_o church_n beside_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o word_n with_o gift_n for_o government_n and_o with_o commission_n to_o execute_v the_o same_o when_o call_v thereunto_o who_o be_v to_o join_v with_o the_o minister_n in_o the_o government_n of_o the_o church_n rom._n 12._o 7_o 8._o 1_o cor._n 12._o 2._o 8._o which_o officer_n reform_a church_n common_o call_v elder_n you_o ought_v nor_o against_o their_o determination_n touch_v this_o matter_n in_o controversy_n betwixt_o you_o and_o we_o by_o your_o opposition_n to_o trouble_v and_o disturb_v the_o peace_n of_o the_o church_n and_o which_o be_v that_o which_o seem_v to_o be_v clear_o calve_v mind_n in_o this_o section_n this_o for_o the_o vindication_n of_o calvin_n be_v we_o hope_v sufficient_a as_o touch_v the_o father_n you_o wish_v we_o to_o consult_v on_o rom._n 12._o intimate_v out_o of_o doctor_n andrews_n that_o not_o one_o of_o they_o apply_v it_o to_o the_o church_n government_n and_o as_o much_o you_o say_v may_v be_v say_v for_o the_o other_o text_n not_o one_o father_n in_o their_o comment_n give_v such_o a_o sense_n and_o which_o you_o be_v so_o confident_a of_o that_o you_o offer_v that_o if_o we_o find_v one_o exposition_n for_o we_o you_o will_v yield_v we_o all_o unto_o this_o we_o say_v 1._o that_o we_o believe_v all_o wise_a and_o sober_a reader_n will_v easy_o discern_v that_o your_o overmuch_o confidence_n have_v put_v you_o on_o to_o over-shoot_a a_o great_a deal_n too_o far_o for_o we_o can_v hardly_o be_v bring_v to_o persuade_v ourselves_o that_o you_o have_v any_o of_o you_o much_o less_o all_o 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disadvantage_n though_o you_o have_v be_v too_o presumpteous_o liberal_a in_o make_v such_o a_o offer_n 2._o but_o suppose_v none_o of_o the_o father_n can_v be_v produce_v thus_o to_o expound_v any_o of_o these_o text_n if_o from_o the_o text_n themselves_o and_o what_o may_v be_v urge_v from_o other_o place_n of_o the_o scripture_n both_o in_o the_o old_a and_o new_a testament_n it_o may_v be_v gather_v that_o that_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o they_o which_o we_o with_o sundry_a other_o modern_a author_n give_v why_o shall_v this_o interpretation_n be_v reject_v because_o not_o back_v with_o the_o testimony_n of_o some_o of_o the_o father_n thus_o expound_v they_o be_v not_o the_o scripture_n sufficient_a to_o expound_v itself_o this_o indeed_o be_v your_o opinion_n as_o appear_v plain_o from_o your_o next_o paper_n but_o the_o popish_a unsoundness_n of_o it_o we_o question_v not_o but_o to_o discover_v when_o we_o come_v to_o it_o 3._o but_o if_o the_o father_n do_v not_o many_o of_o they_o determine_v the_o controversy_n touch_v roll_a elder_n from_o these_o text_n it_o have_v be_v start_v since_o their_o time_n yet_o be_v it_o not_o sufficient_a if_o they_o

lawful_a authority_n there_o can_v be_v no_o perjury_n in_o such_o presbyter_n as_o now_o disow_v it_o and_o join_v with_o other_o of_o their_o brethren_n in_o the_o ordination_n of_o presbyter_n without_o the_o concurrence_n of_o any_o diocesan_n bishop_n and_o which_o be_v the_o case_n here_o speak_v to_o 2_o but_o every_o intelligent_a reader_n will_v ready_o discern_v how_o the_o parliament_n be_v also_o wound_v through_o our_o side_n for_o if_o we_o be_v guilty_a of_o perjury_n for_o disow_a prelacy_n it_o be_v easy_a for_o to_o gather_v what_o apprehension_n you_o must_v needs_o hereupon_o have_v of_o the_o parliament_n that_o by_o their_o authority_n take_v it_o away_o but_o we_o think_v we_o have_v say_v that_o which_o be_v sufficient_a to_o roll_v away_o the_o reproach_n that_o be_v cast_v either_o on_o they_o or_o ourselves_o in_o this_o respect_n and_o therefore_o shall_v forbear_v to_o add_v any_o more_o we_o therefore_o now_o come_v to_o the_o second_o thing_n you_o here_o charge_v we_o with_o which_o be_v pertinacy_n but_o why_o shall_v we_o be_v charge_v with_o this_o for_o no_o other_o reason_n that_o we_o can_v imagine_v but_o because_o we_o can_v force_v our_o conscience_n to_o admit_v of_o episcopacy_n again_o which_o the_o parliament_n upon_o many_o weighry_a and_o sound_a consideration_n have_v remove_v and_o of_o the_o necessity_n whereof_o you_o never_o go_v about_o to_o convince_v we_o either_o from_o scripture_n or_o sound_a reason_n but_o we_o do_v not_o question_v but_o all_o sober_a reader_n will_v here_o see_v cause_n to_o censure_v you_o for_o great_a uncharitableness_n lay_v such_o heavy_a thing_n to_o our_o charge_n for_o which_o you_o have_v not_o the_o least_o show_n of_o proof_n as_o we_o we_o do_v also_o believe_v that_o what_o you_o count_v pertinacy_n they_o will_v judge_n to_o be_v constancy_n in_o we_o in_o stick_v close_o to_o our_o sound_n and_o good_a principle_n that_o we_o must_v not_o forgo_v on_o so_o easy_a term_n as_o you_o will_v have_v we_o and_o however_o you_o will_v here_o make_v dr._n usher_n to_o patronize_v you_o because_o he_o confess_v the_o ordination_n by_o presbyter_n to_o be_v valid_a where_o bishop_n can_v not_o be_v have_v &_o so_o in_o case_n of_o necessity_n yet_o he_o have_v not_o a_o word_n touch_v the_o imputation_n either_o of_o perjury_n or_o obstinacy_n to_o such_o presbyter_n as_o have_v sever_v themselves_o from_o the_o bishop_n as_o he_o be_v of_o a_o far_a other_o spirit_n then_o to_o have_v be_v so_o censorious_a 8._o as_o touch_v ae_n rius_fw-la of_o who_o you_o say_v that_o he_o be_v most_o just_o condemn_v for_o heresy_n for_o hold_v a_o parity_n among_o church-officer_n we_o well_o know_v that_o this_o be_v common_o say_v by_o some_o episcopal_a man_n from_o who_o we_o judge_v you_o receive_v it_o but_o we_o also_o know_v that_o it_o have_v be_v as_o often_o answer_v by_o such_o as_o be_v antiprelatical_a mr._n bane_n in_o his_o diocesan_n trial_n have_v speak_v to_o it_o satisfactory_o dr._n whitaker_n say_v in_o answer_n to_o campian_n ten_o reason_n pag._n 241._o of_o the_o second_o edition_n in_o octavo_n cum_fw-la aërio_fw-la hieronymus_n de_fw-la presbyteris_fw-la omnino_fw-la sensi●_n illos_fw-la enim_fw-la jure_fw-la divino_fw-la episcopis_fw-la aequales_fw-la esse_fw-la statuit_fw-la i._n e._n with_o aërius_n hierome_n do_v conceive_v altogether_o the_o same_o thing_n concern_v presbyter_n for_o he_o determine_v that_o by_o divine_a right_n they_o be_v equal_a unto_o bishop_n and_o because_o hierome_n be_v here_o say_v by_o dr._n whitaker_n to_o be_v of_o the_o same_o opinion_n in_o this_o point_n with_o ae_n rius_fw-la we_o shall_v give_v you_o and_o the_o reader_n a_o account_n thereof_o from_o hierome_n himself_o his_o word_n in_o his_o commentary_n upon_o the_o epistle_n to_o titus_n make_v the_o same_o inference_n from_o the_o word_n of_o the_o apostle_n chap._n 1._o ver._n 5_o 6_o 7._o that_o in_o our_o answer_n to_o your_o second_o paper_n we_o have_v do_v be_v these_o idem_fw-la est_fw-la ergo_fw-la presbyter_n qui_fw-la &_o episcopus_fw-la &_o antequamdiaboli_fw-la instinctu_fw-la studia_fw-la in_o religione_fw-la fierent_fw-la &_o diceretur_fw-la in_o populis_fw-la ego_fw-la sum_fw-la pauli_n ego_fw-la apollo_n ego_fw-la autem_fw-la cephae_fw-la communi_fw-la presbyterorum_fw-la consilio_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la gubernabantur_fw-la and_o then_o a_o little_a after_o he_o say_v putet_fw-la aliquis_fw-la non_fw-la scripturarum_fw-la sed_fw-la nostram_fw-la esse_fw-la sententiam_fw-la episcopum_fw-la &_o presbyterum_fw-la unum_fw-la esse_fw-la relegat_fw-la apostoli_fw-la ad_fw-la phillippense_n verba_fw-la dicentis_fw-la paulus_n &_o timotheus_n servi_fw-la jesus_n christi_fw-la omnibus_fw-la sanc●is_fw-la in_o christo_fw-la jesus_n qui_fw-la sunt_fw-la phillippis_n cum_fw-la episcopis_fw-la &_o diaconis_fw-la gratia_fw-la vobis_fw-la &_o pax_fw-la &_o reliqua_fw-la phillipi_n una_fw-la est_fw-la vrbs_fw-la macedoniae_n &_o certain_o in_o u●â_fw-la civitate_fw-la plures_fw-la ut_fw-la nuncupantur_fw-la episcopi_fw-la esse_fw-la non_fw-la poterant_fw-la sed_fw-la quia_fw-la eosdem_fw-la episcopos_fw-la illo_fw-la tempore_fw-la quos_fw-la &_o prebyteros_fw-la appellabant_fw-la propterea_fw-la indifferenter_fw-la de_fw-la episcopis_fw-la quasi_fw-la de_fw-la presbyteris_fw-la est_fw-la locutus_fw-la whence_o its_o clear_a that_o he_o do_v not_o only_o hold_v bishop_n and_o presbyter_n to_o be_v all_o one_o but_o prove_v this_o from_o the_o scripture_n and_o then_o after_o add_v other_o text_n to_o prove_v the_o same_o thing_n expound_v those_o text_n he_o quote_v in_o the_o same_o manner_n as_o we_o have_v do_v in_o our_o answer_n to_o your_o second_o paper_n more_o may_v be_v urge_v out_o of_o hierome_n to_o show_v that_o he_o be_v of_o the_o same_o opinion_n with_o aërius_n as_o touch_v the_o parity_n of_o a_o bishop_n and_o a_o presbyter_n and_o therefore_o if_o this_o opinion_n be_v a_o heresy_n in_o aërius_n hierome_n according_a to_o your_o assertion_n shall_v have_v be_v also_o most_o just_o condemn_v for_o heresy_n but_o if_o you_o will_v but_o take_v the_o pain_n to_o peruse_v david_n blondellus_n he_o may_v perhaps_o satisfy_v you_o that_o hierome_n be_v not_o to_o be_v accuse_v of_o heresy_n for_o this_o opinion_n he_o apologize_v for_o he_o herein_o and_o prove_v at_o large_a from_o the_o concurrent_a testimony_n of_o the_o father_n that_o he_o hold_v not_o in_o this_o any_o singular_a opinion_n but_o what_o be_v general_o receive_v among_o the_o ancient_n his_o treatise_n be_v a_o large_a quarto_fw-la and_o the_o main_a subject_n of_o it_o be_v to_o apologise_v for_o hierome_n in_o this_o respect_n as_o the_o title_n of_o his_o book_n do_v also_o show_v but_o it_o be_v well_o observe_v by_o the_o provincial_a assembly_n of_o london_n 144._o that_o ae_n rius_fw-la be_v never_o condemn_v by_o any_o council_n of_o heresy_n for_o hold_v the_o identity_n of_o a_o bishop_n and_o a_o presbyter_n but_o that_o on_o the_o contrary_a council_n aquisgranens_fw-la sub_fw-la ludovieo_fw-la pio_fw-la imperatore_n 10._o anno_fw-la 816._o have_v approve_v it_o for_o true_a divinity_n out_o of_o the_o scripture_n that_o bishop_n and_o presbyter_n be_v equal_n bring_v the_o same_o text_n that_o ae_n rius_fw-la do_v they_o also_o well_o observe_v that_o he_o be_v call_v a_o heretic_n by_o epiphanius_n and_o augu●tine_n but_o this_o be_v especial_o if_o not_o only_o because_o he_o be_v a_o arrian_n and_o that_o the_o same_o author_n condemn_v aërius_n as_o much_o for_o reprehend_v and_o censure_v pr●ying_v and_o offer_v for_o the_o dead_a and_o the_o perform_v good_a work_n for_o the_o benefit_n of_o the_o dead_a as_o for_o hold_v bishop_n and_o presbyter_n to_o be_v all_o one_o and_o which_o opinion_n as_o it_o be_v common_o think_v they_o condemn_v in_o ae_n rius_fw-la but_o will_v you_o say_v that_o ae_n rius_fw-la be_v most_o just_o condemn_v for_o heresy_n for_o those_o opinion_n also_o but_o this_o for_o ae_n rius_fw-la his_o opinion_n touch_v a_o parity_n among_o church-officer_n may_v be_v sufficient_a 9_o concern_v your_o submission_n to_o the_o judgement_n of_o council_n you_o have_v indeed_o declare_v yourselves_o before_o and_o we_o have_v show_v you_o have_v submit_v therein_o too_o far_o as_o you_o will_v further_o declare_v yourselves_o to_o this_o purpose_n hereafter_o but_o as_o touch_v ourselves_o you_o shall_v not_o find_v that_o we_o vary_v from_o what_o we_o have_v profess_v to_o be_v our_o judgement_n touch_v this_o matter_n either_o in_o our_o first_o answer_n or_o in_o what_o we_o have_v say_v in_o answer_n to_o the_o second_o section_n of_o this_o paper_n and_o whereunto_o we_o refer_v the_o reader_n that_o by_o compare_v of_o what_o we_o say_v there_o and_o what_o you_o charge_v we_o with_o here_o or_o hereafter_o touch_v our_o not_o hold_v to_o what_o we_o have_v profess_v he_o may_v the_o better_a judge_n how_o groundless_o you_o herein_o do_v accuse_v we_o 10._o but_o you_o will_v still_o have_v our_o provincial_a assembly_n at_o preston_n a_o

the_o censure_n of_o the_o church_n government_n office_n and_o ordinance_n be_v first_o give_v to_o the_o universal_a visible_a church_n before_o they_o be_v give_v to_o this_o or_o that_o particular_a church_n although_o it_o be_v true_a also_o that_o he_o who_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n must_v also_o be_v a_o member_n of_o some_o particular_a church_n under_o the_o discipline_n and_o government_n thereof_o but_o we_o do_v not_o argue_v from_o what_o make_v you_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n to_o prove_v you_o to_o be_v member_n of_o some_o one_o or_o other_o of_o our_o particular_a church_n and_o so_o to_o be_v under_o the_o government_n of_o this_o class_n this_o we_o prove_v from_o individuate_a circumstance_n because_o within_o the_o bound_n of_o our_o association_n appoint_v by_o authority_n of_o parliament_n and_o other_o circumstance_n and_o so_o we_o do_v not_o say_v that_o except_o man_n renounce_v christianity_n and_o their_o baptism_n they_o be_v subject_a to_o our_o government_n but_o we_o say_v we_o look_v upon_o all_o those_o within_o the_o bound_n of_o our_o association_n who_o have_v not_o renounce_v christianity_n and_o their_o baptism_n of_o which_o sort_n we_o know_v not_o any_o among_o we_o as_o person_n we_o have_v a_o inspection_n over_o and_o appoint_v by_o ordinance_n of_o parliament_n to_o be_v subject_a to_o our_o government_n which_o yet_o we_o exercise_v towards_o all_o according_a to_o those_o rule_n and_o that_o moderation_n that_o be_v prescribe_v in_o the_o form_n of_o church_n government_n and_o thus_o we_o have_v answer_v all_o that_o you_o have_v here_o present_v to_o take_v off_o our_o government_n from_o its_o establishment_n by_o the_o civil_a sanction_n for_o it_o be_v not_o your_o come_n over_o again_o with_o the_o act_n of_o 1650._o already_o answer_v and_o bid_v we_o to_o read_v it_o nor_o your_o bid_v we_o to_o read_v the_o close_a of_o the_o eleven_o section_n of_o the_o humble_a advice_n and_o not_o prove_v any_o thing_n in_o the_o form_n of_o church_n government_n to_o be_v contrary_a to_o it_o that_o will_v prove_v either_o a_o express_a or_o implicit_a repeal_n though_o press_v with_o never_o so_o much_o vehemency_n of_o expression_n that_o only_o proclaim_v your_o heat_n and_o earnest_a desire_n to_o have_v it_o so_o and_o how_o glad_o you_o will_v be_v believe_v upon_o your_o word_n and_o confidence_n in_o this_o matter_n when_o you_o want_v further_a argument_n to_o make_v out_o what_o you_o say_v the_o gentleman_n paper_n sect._n v._n and_o thus_o have_v prove_v your_o presbyterian_a government_n to_o have_v the_o civil_a sanction_n just_a thus_o and_o no_o otherwise_o you_o come_v now_o to_o answer_v more_o particular_o to_o that_o which_o follow_v and_o first_o you_o explicate_v what_o be_v before_o dark_a unto_o we_o who_o be_v mean_v by_o the_o many_o person_n of_o all_o sort_n that_o be_v member_n of_o congregation_n etc._n etc._n and_o you_o tell_v we_o all_o person_n be_v within_o your_o verge_n none_o without_o except_o they_o will_v renounce_v christianity_n and_o their_o baptism_n but_o be_v within_o the_o verge_n of_o your_o presbyterian_a government_n their_o not_o associate_a with_o you_o in_o regard_n of_o government_n do_v not_o exempt_v they_o from_o censure_n by_o it_o etc._n etc._n independent_o anabaptist_n and_o other_o all_o be_v subject_a and_o censure_v by_o your_o government_n if_o they_o shall_v censurable_a be_v such_o offender_n as_o by_o the_o rule_n thereof_o be_v just_o censurable_a it_o be_v not_o a_o matter_n arbitrary_a for_o private_a person_n at_o their_o own_o will_n and_o pleasure_n to_o exempt_v themselves_o from_o under_o that_o ecclesiastical_a government_n that_o be_v settle_v by_o authority_n here_o gentleman_n you_o may_v do_v well_o to_o consider_v whether_o you_o do_v not_o subject_v yourselves_o to_o the_o contempt_n and_o scorn_n of_o all_o other_o party_n who_o conceit_n they_o have_v as_o full_a power_n by_o etc._n their_o rule_n of_o church_n discipline_n to_o censure_v you_o as_o you_o have_v they_o jam_fw-la sumus_fw-la ergo_fw-la pares_fw-la yet_o they_o dare_v not_o censure_n or_o punish_v any_o out_o of_o their_o church_n membership_n contrary_a to_o the_o several_a act_n make_v for_o toleration_n to_o the_o act_n of_o the_o 27._o september_n 1650._o and_o to_o the_o express_a article_n in_o the_o humble_a advice_n above_o mention_v if_o you_o be_v so_o bold_a we_o have_v tell_v you_o before_o and_o tell_v you_o again_o a_o ordinance_n of_o lord_n and_o commons_o for_o settle_v of_o your_o fresbyterian_a government_n will_v be_v no_o sufficient_a plea_n for_o your_o act_n contrary_a to_o the_o know_a law_n since_o make_v but_o will_v prove_v you_o contemner_n of_o all_o civil_a power_n and_o may_v run_v you_o upon_o a_o praemunire_n but_o here_o you_o seem_v offend_v at_o we_o for_o call_v presbytery_n a_o common_a fold_n what_o presbytery_n a_o know_a scripture_n expression_n 1_o tim._n 4._o and_o interpret_v by_o object_n sundry_a of_o the_o father_n as_o we_o do_v as_o have_v be_v before_o declare_v to_o be_v term_v a_o common_a fold_n you_o may_v have_v use_v a_o more_o civil_a expression_n what_o presbytery_n interpret_v by_o sundry_a of_o the_o father_n as_o you_o do_v how_o be_v that_o we_o shall_v tell_v you_o the_o father_n be_v different_a in_o the_o sense_n and_o interpretation_n answ_n of_o this_o word_n presbytery_n in_o the_o scripture_n expression_n 1_o tim._n 4._o the_o latin_a father_n general_o as_o hierome_n ambrose_n primasius_n anselm_n and_o other_o take_v this_o word_n presbytery_n for_o the_o function_n which_o timothy_n receive_v when_o he_o be_v make_v bishop_n or_o priest_n and_o thus_o calvin_n take_v it_o in_o his_o institutes_n quod_fw-la de_fw-la impositione_n manuum_fw-la presbyterii_fw-la dicitur_fw-la ●non_fw-la ità_fw-la accipio_fw-la quasi_fw-la paulus_n de_fw-la seniorum_fw-la fine_a collegio_fw-la loquatur_fw-la sedhoc_fw-la nomine_fw-la ordinationem_fw-la ipsam_fw-la intelligo_fw-la the_o greek_a father_n as_o ignatius_n chrysostome_n theodoret_n theophilact_fw-mi oecumenius_n and_o other_o and_o some_o few_o of_o the_o latin_n also_o take_v it_o for_o the_o company_n of_o presbyter_n i._n e._n bishop_n who_o lay_v hand_n on_o the_o new_a make_v bishop_n or_o priest_n and_o in_o this_o sense_n likewise_o in_o his_o comment_n upon_o this_o place_n it_o be_v interpret_v by_o calvin_n say_v presbyterium_fw-la qui_fw-la hic_fw-la collectivum_fw-la nomen_fw-la esse_fw-la putant_fw-la pro_fw-la collegio_fw-la presbyterorum_fw-la positum_fw-la rectè_fw-la s●n●iunt_fw-la meo_fw-la judicio_fw-la although_o he_o be_v here_o as_o flat_a opposite_a to_o his_o former_a judgement_n as_o high_a noon_n be_v to_o midnight_n and_o we_o fear_v wander_v we_o shall_v find_v you_o as_o waver_a and_o unsettle_a in_o you_o when_o it_o come_v to_o scan_v for_o divers_a of_o the_o father_n you_o say_v interpret_v this_o word_n as_o you_o do_v and_o as_o you_o have_v before_o declare_v now_o how_o you_o interpret_v it_o and_o where_o to_o find_v this_o place_n where_o it_o be_v before_o declare_v that_o your_o interpretation_n agree_v with_o sundry_a of_o the_o father_n we_o have_v not_o yet_o discover_v indeed_o we_o find_v you_o quote_v dr_n usher_n that_o learned_a and_o reverend_a antiquary_n to_o prove_v the_o antiquity_n of_o synod_n and_o assembly_n and_o thereby_o you_o think_v he_o vindicate_v your_o assembly_n in_o our_o thought_n from_o all_o suspicion_n of_o novelty_n we_o find_v also_o by_o you_o out_o of_o he_o there_o quote_v certain_a father_n as_o first_o ignatius_n who_o by_o presbytery_n mention_v by_o paul_n 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o do_v understand_v the_o community_n of_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o presbyter_n or_o elder_n and_o for_o further_a proof_n tertullian_n be_v allege_v in_o his_o general_a apology_n for_o christian_n that_o old-beaten_a 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