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A14461 The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe; Disputations chrestiennes. English Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571.; Calvin, Jean, 1509-1564.; Brooke, John, d. 1582. 1579 (1579) STC 24776; ESTC S119193 490,810 627

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although y be be taken with the deed he wil excuse himself And as y shameles whore is not a shamed to deny y which we see with our eyes hanole with our hands As we haue an example in Came. Although that he killed his brother and y his handes were yet all blouddy and wette with the bloud that he ●ad shed it seemeth to heare him speake that God did vnto him greate miury and wronge in asking him where he is And therefore God would vanquishe the malyce and peruersitie of mans hearte and condemne it by the workes that are manifest for to declare vnto him and to make him confesse by the fruite that he is the roote a●d the tree to the ende that he may not glorify himself to be the Figge the O life tree when one doth emdently shewe vnto him the thornes thistles that it hath born And euen so euery creature is constrayned to acknowledge and conf●sse that the iudgement of God is iust and that it consisteth in all truth and equitie Now the workes y men do for vs after that wee bee dead are not ours Wherefore wee cannot saye that they follow vs For it is another matter to bee in the way and iourney and to haue already ended his iourney and to be arriued at the port whylest that we are in the course of this present life he taketh vs as a sree which yet groweth the which one may dresse and proyne for to make him beare fruite But when he is once cut downe ther is no more hope he lieth wher lie falleth he must trauayle no more afterwards In like maner may we iudge of man Whilest y he is in the way that he is in his course sight one may aide him by admonitiōs entreatings other morkes of charitie which we owe y one to y other whilst y we are herein the work of god for vs to helpe the one the other to obteine win the victory But after that he hath called vs from the worke in the which he hath set vs wée must attend and looke no more but for the rewarde and Crowne of righteousenes the which the righteous Iudge shall giue vnto vs as Sainct Paul hoped for himselfe as we haue fought for him the good fight and haue fulfilled our course and haue kept the faith vnto the ende On the contrary we must looke for feare confusion and eternall death as the slougthfull seruant vnfaithfull and vngrations we haue hid away and stollen the Talent away from our Maister without bringing vnto him any profit Therefore Sainct Iohn saith Bring foorth fruites worthy of repentance that is to say thorow which you shewe foorth that truely you repent you of your sinnes and that you haue amended your euill life For the are is put vnto the roote of the tree so that euery tree whiche bringeth not foorth good fuite is hewen downe and cast in to the fire Uppon that ma●ter Sainct Augustine did writte vnto Macedonius after this manner There is no other place for to correct and amende manners then in this life For after this life euery one shall haue that that hee hath gottē here And in another place he saith In this world the mercy of god helpeth those y rep●t But in y world to come repētance profiteth not but we must rīder accompt of our works Liberty of repētance is only giuen vnto vs in this life after y we be dead there is no more licr̄ce of correctiō Now is y time of mercy after wards shal be the time of iudgment And in expoūding those words of Iesus Christ Hee which beleeueth not is already iudged saith after this māner The iug●ei●ēt appereth not yet but y iudgemēt is already done For y Lord knoweth who are his He knoweth those which abyde looking farryng for the crown those which abyde looking for the fire Moreouer Sainct Iohn Chusostome speaketh more plainely confirming that which I haue said in such words Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end and prepare thy self to the way and if thou haste taken any thing by violence from anye man restore it againe and make restitution and say with Zachens if I haue taken from any man by forged cauilatiō I restore him foure fould If thou art angry with any man agree with him before that thou do come vnto iudgement dispatche here al things that without let thou mayst sée that Iudictall seate All the while that wee are here in this world we haue goodly hopes but assone as we shal be gone from thence it lyeth no more in oure power to doe penaunce nor to deface and put out our sinnes For after the end of our life there is no more occasion of merites no more then there is vnto those the play at prises games to obtaine crownes and rewardes after that the combat play and prises are finished and ended For he which in this present life hath not washed away his sinnes afterwards he shal finde no consolation For in hell as it is written who shall confesse thee That is to say who shall prayse thee in the graue And by good reason For this is the time of the Theators of Combals Playes and Prises But the shal be the time of the Crownes rewards and salaryes Also let vs not thinke when we shall be come thyther that we shall haue mercy which do nothing at all wherefore we ought to haue pardon No though Abraham Noe Iob and Daniell did pray for vs Whilest then wee haue time let vs prepare for our selues great trust and assurance towards god And Sainct Hierome saith no lesse confessing that in the other world And Sainct Ambrose is of the same opinion saying Dauid required that his sinnes might bee pardoned him before that he departed out of this life For he that shall not here in this life receaue forgiuenesse of his sinnes shal not haue it in the other he shall not haue it bicause he shall not haue the power to come and attaine to the eternal life For the forgiuenes of sinnes is the eternall life Therfore saith hee pardon mee O Lorde that I may bee comforted before that I goo and shall be no more And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papisticall doctrine which is so repugnant both to the holy scriptures and to the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Churche Sainct Cyprian hath written in the Sermon that he made of the immortalitie that the faithfull that do dye haue taken white robes and garments By which he meaneth that they are come to the beatitude and felicitie and feacheth that we muste wéepe no more for the dead Sith that they are alreadie in the estate of felicitie But me thinkes that the Priestes do not take them to bee assured of the eternall life whom they lodge in their Purgatory but that from Purgatory they may yet
Ringing of belles 68 To ring for the time 75 Rule of the diuine seruice for the dead 63 Ruth and Booz 97 Ruth and Noe●● 100. S. Diuers sacrafices the dead for diuers causes 10● Sacrafice of Iesus Christ 48 Salt in the baptisute 35. Salt of wisedome ●5 Salt of the worde of God. 35. Salt of the Priests 35. Salting and seasoning of fooles 35 The salutation of the souldier vnto the holy fathers 39 Sampson and Dauid 94. The efficacie strength of Sathan 106 Satiffacion for sinnes 8● Saturne and Rea. 59. All sauors are good so that money doe come 41. The sclpunder of the Pharises 18. Shepheards feeding themselues ●1 Scotlande and Irelande 27. Sellyng of offices 43. Sellying of the buriall 54. Senna therib 94. Sennacherib Romaine 94. Sepulcher of Iesus Christ 53. Sepulchers infatiable 52. White or paynted sepulchers 52. To sing after the dead 87. Singing of Masses 41. Signification and definition of an heritiche 60. Signification of belles 71. 74. Signification of hell 17. Signification of the deepe lake 89. Signe of the crosse 102 Sillogismus in Darif 51 Simonse and Simoniackes 53. Sinnes of Princes 30. Sinnes of the simple people 30. Sinnes of Princes and Cyronts 29. Siticines 66. Soppe in the throate 51. A soule drawenfrom hell 90 A soule taken in a net 89. To what serueth the washings of soules 36. The spertell of the priests 35. The spertell of Iesus Christ 34. To sprinkle the sepulchers with water 37. The spirite the author of purgatory 29. Stella Clericorum 48. Stephen the sixth 88. Stlgmates 103. Stile of the holy Ghost 18 Stix 9● The Philosophicall stone 55. Stiffocations 36 Supper 42. T. Tanners of mens skinnes 65. Tannefat of the Priests 64. Temple of God. 49. The cause of the temptacions of y elect 1. Tempus 31 The Poeticall Theologie 24 Thuringie 26. Three differēces of sinnes the diuersitie of the payues 31 Tibicines 66 Time of Gregory 96 Time of pestilence 36 The tyrant of tyrants and the pillers of the vsurers 30 Torches and candells at the burialls 33. Torches at the funeralls 70. Troianus delyuered from hell 9● Tree of lyfe 90. The true science and cloquence 7. Tribute of the brine and of y stewes 41 Tribute of victualls of proces 42 Tribute of get pence and whores 42. Tribute of Moriages 42. Tribute of players 42 The papistical tribute of victualls 42 Tribute of whoores 43 Tributaries of Priests 54. Trophonius denne 27. V. Vealegon arder 51. Valut Canis é Nylo Prouerve 6 The vertue of the truth 30. The vertue of the habite of S. Fraunces 105. Vespiliones 65 Voyatge of Saint Patrickes wells 26. Vino rogum ne respargito 38. Vse holy water at burialls 101 Vow of Herode 81 W. To be in the way 35. Waters of Aegypt 95. Water of tribulation 94. Holy water 34. Holy water vnprofitable 88. To watch the dead 104. The olde woemen that doe keepe the children that be borne dead 44 Weeping of the Crocodile 64. Whoredome 81. Widow askng counsayle of the bells 72. Canon witnesse 24. Too wise or ouer wise 13. Holy woode 75. Idle worde 9. What good workes God requireth for the dead 100 Good works don to the dead by Booz 100 Workes of mercy towards the dead 97. What workes doe follow the dead 85. What workes God requireth of vs and to what ende 83 Workes of Angells and the elect 84. Workes done for vs after we be dead 85 Z. Zazel or Azazel a Diuell 101. FINIS TABVLAE ¶ THE SECOND PART of the Christian disputations By Maister Peter Viret Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Asshe next Sandwich MATHEVV XV. A. IX ¶ In vaine they worship me teaching doctrines which are nothing but mens precepts MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR Ē VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East THE SVMME OF THE third Dialogue IN this thirde Dialogue by reason that Eusebius mainteineth and vpholdeth that the Prayers and Sussrages for the dead are of Gods ordinaunce and of the institution of the auneient Church it is intreated off very amply by Theophilus and Hillarius and shewed out pointe by pointe of what originall and beginning that did first begin by whom it was begun and hath bene augmented as well amonge the Panims as the Iewes and Christians And what hath bene the customes and ceremonies of the one the other as well in their mourning and sorrowing for the dead as in their Anniuersaries Feastes Obsequies for the dead And bicause that there is great conformitie betweene the feastes dedicated vnto the dead as well among the Panims as the papisticall Christians we will declare euidently by conferring the one with the other not onely the agreeing that these feastes haue togother but also that which is amongest many other ceremonyes ioyned with them and depending vpon them The which haue bene borrowed of the Panims by the papisticall Christians or at the least wife the imitation is so cleere and euident that there is none but that he may easely iudge that they proceeded all from one spirite For to manifest and declare then thys same the better and for to make it the playnelyer to bee seene we will declare pointe by pointe the conformityes which are betweene the one and the other touching the diuerse feastes and dayes dedicated vnto the deade and touching the forbiddinge of marriage at certeine times Afterwardes the conformitie of some feastes and Idols of the Panims and Papistes and the feast of the candels and diuers purisications obserued of the one part and of the other And the consecrations of Torches Waxe Waxcandles Salt holy Water Fire Asshes and many other suche diuers matters by the which euory one may easely iudge who hath ben the authour of the popish Ceremonies and what difference there is betweene the auncient Panim Rome and the Romish Church such as it is at this present We doe call this Dialogue Anniuersaries or yeares mindes bicause that it maketh mention of many Ceremonies which yearelye haue bene obserued among the superstitious and Idolaters about the dead as of the straunge Gods. ¶ Now for to enter in the matter Theophilus beginneth after this manner THE THIRD DIALOGVE which is called Anniuersaries or yeares mindes THeophilus I am very glad bicause that you are all come in so good time chiefly of Eusebius For I greatly feared that he was offended with our talke and dysputations that we had yesterday But as farre as I can perceiue not with standing that he be very much rooted in his olde opinions superstitions yet neuer thelsse I know that he differeth much from a heape of obstinate and wilfull fooles which haue no reason at all to defende their cause nor know howe to take any other weapons then opinions and obstinations for to fight against the truth neither know how to finde any other meane to vanquish it and to reuenge themselues thereoff then to hurt and wrong those which do
this custome that in the prayers of the Priestes which they doe make vnto God at his aulter the recommendation of the soules hath also his place And did not Monica the Mother of Sainct Augustine require that they should make remembraunce of hir in the sacrament of the aulter For that cause hath Sainct Gregory written that the soules of the dead are deliuered in scure manners and sorts either by the oblations of the Priestes or by the prayers of the Sainctes or by the aimes of their friendes or by the fastinges of their parents I doe not thincke that these two learned men would haue written suche thinges wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures And it is not lyke that the Church hath kept that custome so longe time but that shée was well assured that it came from the Apostles and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene as witnesseth Isidore for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian who were next vnto the Apostles they made prayers sacrifyces and oblations for the dead For Sainct Denis maketh expresse mention of the prayer which the Bishop made for the dead that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght haue committed through mans infirmitie and that he woulde place him in lyght and in the region and countrey of the liuinge and in the bosome of Abraham 〈◊〉 and Iacob It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye ●●oblation for the dead I haue declared vnto thée many witnesses and of great authoritie I haue alledged vnto thee the custome of the auncient Church which is a witnesse which is worth a thousande I haue alledged vnto thée the practise of the auncient Doctors They doe sufficiently declare both they haue vsed and chiefely Sainct Augustine who ●●●●●festly witnesseth that the same was ordeyned of the authors which the vniuersall Church kéepeth that is no say that for those which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Christ when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place in the sinne very socrifice that one ought to maye and make remembraunce that one doe also offer that sacrifice for them Wherefore he sayth that we must not omit the supplication the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo for the spirites and soules of all the dead which are departed in the Christian society and company Theophilus I thinke that thou hast very strongly dysplayed and set foorth the principall weapons that thou canst finde for to defende thy quarrell and that if I haue once satisfied those obiections I beleeue that the matter shall bée ended as soone as hée toucheth the witnesse and authoritie of the auncient fathers As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celestiall and ecclesiasticall Hieratchies I haue already ready tolde thée what it was For who knoweth not that that booke of the celestiall Hierarchia is more worthy to be some dreamer then of Sainct Denis the Disciple of Sainct Paul For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church hée had woulde rather haue followed Sainct Paule his Master then the dreames of his owne head and hée woulde not haue spoken of such matters otherwise then hée in his Epistles If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis whatsoeuer it bée thou shalt there finde that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for those that bée aliue and not for the dead And doth confirme that which wée haue already spoken off of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayse the dead Wherefore it shoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before if thou wouldest vnderstande that which one telleth thée But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée I haue already sufficiently declared vnto thee from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firste and what hath bene the custome of the auncient fathers the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popish Church Wherefore that whiche thouhast alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter as I wyll proue vnto thee by Cyprian that holy Martyr who hath read and well vnderderstanded Tertulian if euer man dyd vnderstand him For hee had him in such reputation that hee dyd call him no otherwyse but the Master thorowe his great excellentnesse Insomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes he sayde alwayes bringe mée the master And the better to declare the pleasure that hée dyd take in readinge him and the fruite that one myght therein learne receiue they saye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed vnder vys pillolue that hee nyght haue it alwayes ready at hande when hee woulde occupye and looke in it as the auncient historyes doe also wytnesse that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere For hée giueth vs sufficiently to vnderstande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead in that auncient Churche were none other thinges then the prayses and giuinge of thankes which the faythfull did render vnto God for the mercy that he did vnto their bretheren whome hée hath called from this world with the other thinges whiche haue bene already spoken off which are yet done at this daye in some places in Almaigne after the auncien● manner But they doe call commonly the oblation and sacryfice the diuine seruice and that which they dyd in theire assembles in which they did obserue chiefly foure things The first was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of god After the prayers Afterwards the supper and last of all the gatherings and almos for the poore And they did call that oblation and sacrifice not that they dyd vnderstand and meane to offer and sacrifice Iesus Christe as the Priests say that they doe in their Masse But bicause that the Bishop and Pastor of the church and al the Christian people did come to offer present themselues vnto god did offer vnto hym their orisons giuing of thanks which are y true sacrifice of praise And their almes in like manner for to cōfort y poore people of Iesus Christ They are those which the Apostle calleth offerings agreeable vnto god And they did make cōmemoration of the death passion of Iesus Christ in celebrating the holy supper Wherfore we must not thinke y they did make prayers offerings for the dead to the ende they should be deliuered frdi● the paines of Purgatory as hath bene done in our time But the praiers were the prayses and thanks that they rendered vnto God and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vnto those that bée liuinge The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring for to succour helpe the poore which were liuing And therefore long time amonge the auncientes that diuine so●●ke that they
time what fault can be in the child and what consolation doth your doctrine bring vnto the poore mother being alreadie sufficiently scourged and afflicted of the hand of God to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vnto perpetuall exile and banished from Paradise for euer And that hee is detayned in the Limbe in the which without ceasing hee curseth Father and mother At the least wyse the Carhards haue preached and perswaded them so Thomas Yea I haue heard them preach more ouer that is to say that it were better that a Towne a Ceuntry or a kingdome were drowned then an Infaunt shoulde dye without baptisme Theophilus If the Infant did come vnto the age of discretion and that hee despisoth the baptisme I would not excuse his infidelitie and rebellion Or if the father mother thorough their negligence dispising infidelitie haue made none accompt to baptise their child I would not also excuse them but that they should yeld them selues greatly culpable before God worthy of greeuous punishment But I will not yet neuerthelesse therefore iudge rashely of the saluation of the childe For GOD knoweth those that are his And man hath not power to danipue him whome God woulde haue saued And if it hath not pleased God to shewe that grace and fauour vnto the Father and Mother that they cannot sée their childe aliue for to offer and present him vnto him and to his Churche by the baptisme wherefore shall hée vse such furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents which are already ynough desolate and without comfort What iniury doe you vnto Iesus Christe These Infants borne dead shoulde not haue great occasion to blesse his comming nor to sing with those which haue receiued him when he entred into Hierusalem Blessed be the sonne of Dauid which commeth in the name of the lord They should haue hadde more iust occasion to cursse and detest him sith that in steede to amende their condition hée hath put them in worfe estate then the Iewes were before his comming You cannot denye that absurditie and inconuenience if you will mainteine your doctrine truely the which declareth it selfe altogether contrary to the doctrine of the gospell full of all consolation in stéede of which your doctrine bringeth but desolation and despaire Hillarius I can speake by experience For I haue knowen holy wo●men walking in true simplicitie of heart and great feare of God which were so troubled in their conscience bicause that such inconueniences happened vnto them and that they were so perswaded that with much a doe one could sinde any meanes to comfort them and set their conscyence at rest and in quiet what soeuer things 〈◊〉 say vnto them Although that one tolde and affirmed vnto them that our Lady of Lausanne shewed grace vnto the Infant and that those which were present did witnesse vnto them of the goodly myracle that she had done in rayāng to life the Infant for to baptise it being dead afterwardes did put him in the graue yet neuerthelesse all that coulde not assure them and they coulde not be at rest in their conscience vntill such time as thorough the preaching of the Gospell they were deliuered from those false oppinions of Caphards and deuillishe doctrines Theophilus That is that which sathan and the false prophets do desire the consciences shoulde be troubled desolate for then gaine they most They haue of mē that they desire their fishing is best in troubled water Eusebius Thou hast concluded that according to our doctrine it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde haue impaired the estate of the Christians But wherein For those of the Iewes shal no more enter into Paradise then those here Theophilus If they went into Abrahams bosome by the which thou vnderstandest the Lymbe there was no more greater punishment for them then for the others which were circumcysed sith that all doe goe thither indifferently as I haue sufficiently shewed vnto thee Afterwards those which then were in the Lymbe hoped to be deliuered the which is denied vnto the poore children of the Christians Wherefore it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde rather come for to showe and bring vnto them the wrath and iudgement of God then his grace and mercy Furthermore those which were in Abrahams bosome were not without hauing some taste and perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyse as it appeareth plainely by the wordes of Abraham answering vnto the rich man after this manner Thou hast had pleasure in this worlde Wherefore thou must howe suffer and that the chaunce be tourned And contrariwise Lazarus hath suffered greate tribulations and iniseryes Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at rest and ioy Thou canst not denye but that these wordes are true If they bée true thou art constrayned to confesse that in Abrahames bosome is consolation rest and ioy And howe can these thinges be out of the kingdome of GOD which is righteousuesse peace and ioye in the holye Ghost Eusebius I haue not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes being deade without Circumsition should go vnto the Lymbe of the fathers but into another Theophilus It behoueth then to forge Lymbes But where is the witnesse of the Scripture for to prooue the same And do the children of the Christians go straight way vnto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers Eusebius No. Hillarius Then there is presently a chamber to heyre Theophilus Doest thou not knowe into what dreams and foolishnesse that doctrine doth leade you Truely I am ashamed Wherefore I pray thée that thou do holde thy selfe content with that that I haue aunswered vnto thée and that nowe thou do come vnto the question which I haue propounded vnto thee to wit what difference thou puttest betwéene the bosome of Abraham and Paradise Eusebius I do not meane to passe thy question without aunswering vnto it But thou lettest slippe the principall obiection which I haue made vnto thee without hauing satisfyed mee therein Wherefore I would haue the resolution before thou doest escape mée Howe may wée then vnderstande that which Iesus Christ hath said Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the Spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god Doth he not by those wordes openly declare that the baptisme of the water is necessarie vnto saluation And that he which shall not be baptised with water cannot enter into she kingdome of heauen For he hath not onely sayde hee that shal be borne a newe of the Spirite but he hath also added the water for to declare that the one and the other are requisit I confess● that the water without the spirit suffiseth net and that the vis●●l● 〈◊〉 without faith cannot saue For it is first sayd●●●● th●● 〈◊〉 afterwards there is added and is baptised shall bee saued But I cannot vnderstand but that the baptisme of the water is in like manner necessarie vnto saluation Or I know not to what