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A48863 The harmony between the old and present non-conformists principles in relation to the terms of conformity, with respect both to the clergie, and the people : wherein a short history of the original of the English liturgy, and some reasons why several truly conscientious Christians cannot joyn with the church in it : humbly presented to publick consideration in order to the obtaining some necessary relaxation and indulgence : to which are added some letters that pass'd between the Lord Cecil, and Arch-bishop Whitgift. Lobb, Stephen, d. 1699.; Whitgift, John, 1530?-1604.; Burghley, William Cecil, Baron, 1520-1598. 1682 (1682) Wing L2726; ESTC R23045 77,527 105

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O Lord and the people make their Answer Because there is no other that fighteth for us but only thou O God as if Almighty God alone had not been able to defend them in the time of War whence they Pray unto God for the sending Peace But cannot that God who sendeth Peace by putting an end unto Wars preserve and protect in the day of Trouble If he can to what purpose is this Argument urg'd Again an alteration is made in the State of this Affair The Minister gives instruction or rather as a beginner of the Prayer mentions the Matter or Thing to be prayed for and the people must proceed to the making it a formal Prayer whence 't is that whereas the Minister in the publick Assembly should be the Mouth of the people unto God The Minister being silent the people altogether with a loud voice a distracting Murmur are their own Mouth Thus From Fornication and all other deadly Sin as if some sins were not Mortal but Venial and from all the Deceits of the World the Flesh and the Devil so far the Minister proceeds and then make a stop from whom the people take it adding Good Lord deliver us Again O Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the World says the Minister with the greatest seeming fervour and affection but yet in the midst of the sentence his warm affection is ended and the people proceed to say Grant us thy peace O Lord. Again they must be as they were in Statu Quo and the Minister prayes O Lord let thy Mercy be shewed on us to which Petition the people either add their sence or Limitation or Reason of the Prayer as we put our Trust in thee Beside at some one meeting of the Assembly the Pater-Noster or Lords Prayer is to be repeated Six or Eight several times and the Gloria Patri Twelve beside the many Kyrie Eleesons and Christe Eleesons Lord have mercy on us Christ have mercy upon us the Responces the Versicles c. Alas how ridiculous would this be interpreted by the generality of those who are now Sons of the Church should the Dissenters have us'd such a practice This Argument receives strength from what I find insisted on by by some of His Majesties Commissioners in the Account of all the proceedings of the Commissioners of both perswasions where 't is thus Argued Vid. As we find that the Minister is the Mouth of the people to God in publick which Scripture and the necessity of Order do require So we are loath to Countenance the people's Invading of that Sacred Office so far as they seem to us to do By reading half the Psalms and Hymnes 2. By saying half the Prayers as the Minister doth the other half 4. By being the only Petitioners in the far greatest part of all the Letany by their Good Lord deliver us and We beseech thee to hear us good Lord. While the Minister only reciteth the Matter of the Prayer and maketh none of the request at all we fear least by purity of reason the people will claim the work of preaching and other parts of the Ministerial Office 3. And we mentioned that which all our Ears are witnesses of that until half the Psalms and Hymns c. are said by such of the people as can say them the Murmur of their Voices in most Congregations is so unintellgible and Confused as must hinder the Edification of all the rest for who is edified by that which he cannot understand This you 'l find page 29 but in page 60 we have account of the Rule and Order of Prayer with a full Demonstration That the Common Prayer is not agreeable unto any just Rule or Order There are say they Two Rules of Prayer One is the Nature of the things Compared in Matter and Order with Nature and Necessity The Other is the Revealed Will of God in his word in General the Holy Scripture more Especially the Lords Prayer The Liturgy for the greatest part of the Prayers for dayly Vse is Confused by whichsoever you measure it You seem much to honour the Lords Prayer by your frequent Use of it or part of it we beseech you dishonour it not practically by denying it by Matter and Order to be the only Ordinary and Perfect Rule We know about particular Administrations where it is but certain select Requests that we are to put up suited to the partcular Subject and Occasion we cannot follow the whole Method of the Lords Prayer which containeth the heads of all the parts where we are not to take in all the parts we cannot take them in that Order But that none of all your Prayers should be form'd to that perfect Rule that your Letany which is your Comprehensive Prayer and that the Body of your dayly Prayers broken into several Collects should not as set together have any considerable respect unto that Order nor yet to the Order which reason and the Nature of the thing requireth which is observed in all things else and yet that you should so Admire this and be so tenacious of that which is conceived Prayer you would call by worse names than Confusion this sheweth us the power of prejudice By this the Reader may perceive how much the Non-Conformists are for a decent Order and Comely Method in Prayers but the Conformist against it and how much the Non-Conformist are for the right use of the Lords Prayer even when the Conformist are not at least practically for it Whence we may see how unreasonable it is to make such a Noise and Clamour as if the Dissenters rejected the Lords Prayer or were against its use whereas in truth the Dissenters are much more for the Right use of the Lords Prayer than the Conformists are Whoever will understand the true State of this Controversie must consider what the great design of the Disciples in Asking and of Christ in granting their Request about Prayer was the which he can no sooner with just deliberation and impartially do but will be satisfied that the thing the Disciples desired was to be Taught how to Fray Lord Teach us as John taught his Disciples How to Pray and they desire to be taught not that they prescribe unto Jesus Christ a Method in which he should teach 'em for that became not Disciples even Scholars who are to Learn but not to teach This being the desire of the Disciples to be taught to pray not to have a form of VVords to be Verbally and Syllabically rehearsed or repeated but Rules or Presidents for the directing 'em how to pray The answering of their Request was the Design of Christ in giving 'em the Lords Prayer which was principally intended for the Direction of the Disciples who were as Matthew expresseth it Oblig'd by that Command when ye Pray say Our Father so say after that manner when you pray or whenever you pray The Command is perpetual Obliging at all times of prayer so far as the particular Occasions