woemen which followed Iesus Christe from Galile vntill he was buryed willinge to anointe him in his sepulchre dyd not thinke of his resurrection but did thinke to haue founde him dead as the Angells rebuked them saying why seeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead There is no doubte but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Iesus Christe as wee haue towardes the dead But to the ende that wee maye haue no more neede to dispute muche of it wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vnto thee Augustine agaynste Augustine To whome haddest thou rather staye eyther vppon Saincte Augustine followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture and speakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne or vnto hym and other auncient Doctours wyth the holy Scripture Eusebius I doe not thincke that Sainct Augustine would speake against himselfe nor the he hath bene contrary vnto the holy Scripture nor to the auncient Doctors Theophilus Thou canst not shewe vnto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye But I will declare vnto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyshed it Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye then the bloude of Iesus Christe hee sayth speakinge of Porphyras a Platonist that hee hath not knowen Iesus Christe to bee the begynninge thorowe whose incarnation wee are purged For hee shoulde haue then acknowledged a Purgatorye And in an other place hee sayth Wee haue then the bictorye in his name which hath taken mannes fleshe and hath liued without sinne to the ende that by hym beeiâ—ge the Priest and the sacrifice we are made the remyssion of sinnes That is to saye thorowe the medyatour of God and men the man Iesus Christe who in hys owne person hath purged our sinnes and restored be agayne vnto god For men are not seperated from God but thorowe sinne for which it lyeth not in vs thorowe our owne power and strength to purge them in this lyfe but therow the mercy God thorow his clemeney not thorowe our power For that vertue whiche is called ours whatsoeuer it bee it is graunted vnto vs thorowe his goodnesse Doth hee not cleerelye shewe that the purgation of sinnes is done in this lyfe and yet not thorowe our owne righteousnesse nor vertue Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other Furthermore hee manyfestly sayth the soules of the good men after they are seperated from the body are at rest and wee muste not doubt of it but those of the wicked are punished vntyll such time as the bodyes of those doe ryse againe to eternall lyfe and of these heere to eternall death whiche is called the seconde death But is it possible to speake more cleerelye and purely of Iesus Christe and of the Purgatorye that wee haue in him then when hee sayth Thorowe his death that is to saye by one onelye and true sacrifice which hath bene offered for vs hee hath purged abolythed and put out all that that had anye saultes in vs Wherefore the hygher power and those of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vs for to bee punyshed And by his resurrection hath called vnto a newe lyfe wee which were predestyned hee hath iustified those that hee called and glorified the iustified Beholde woords very cleere And speaking of the opinion of Plato he sayth Those which are of that opinion doe thincke that after that one is deud there is no other paines then of Purgatorye for to purge sinnes Alyttlo after hee sayth Wee confesse that in this mortall life there is a certeyne Purgatory paine It seemeth that hee somewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduersities that man suffereth in this world do serue him for a purgation of his sinnes the which yet neuerthelesse they dare not to attribute but to Iesus Christ Although that we doe commonly say of him which hath had much euil griefe in this world the he hath had heere his Purgatory For that tasteth muche of the opinion of Plato But Sainct Augustin doth not make ther meÌ„tioÌ„ of any paineâ— of purgatoy after this life but he sayth playnely that the soules of the faythfull do rest after the deathe of the bodye But what wilt thou more cléerer then when hée sayeth Some doe beleeue that those also whiche haue not abandoned the name of Christ and which haue bene baptized in hys Church and haue not belie cutte off from the same thorow anye schisme or heresie that in whatsoeuer sinnes they haue lyued in the which they shall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes but shall perseuer and continue in them continually vntill the last daye of their lyfe shall be saued thorow the fire Although that according to the greatnesse of theire sinnes and misdéedes that fire shall bée diuturnall but not eternall But mée thincketh that those that doe beléeue this and yet neuerthelesse are catholikes are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence For the holy Scripture if one doe looke and search in it aunswereth an other thing Thou seest héere Eusebius that be speaketh of the fire of Purgatory whatsoeuer thinge he hath spoken at other time And sayth moreouer that there is but two wayes to wit one of dampnation and an other of saluation But marke well his owne words The fayth of the catholikes thorowe the diuine authoritie doth first beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen Secondly that there is a hell in the which euerye apostate and straunger to the fayth of Christe is punyshed Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures that there is any It seemeth to mee that hée speaketh very cléerely and that those authorities ought to suffice thee against all that that thou canst alledge of the auncient Doctors in the fauour of Purgatory Yet neuerthelesse the better to vanquish and pull thée down I wil yet shew foorth vnto thee some sentences of the most auncient Doctoures Marke what Tertulian sayth It seemeth vnto euery one that is wise which haue heard somtime spoken of the fields Ehseus that it hath some locall determination which hath bene called Abrahams bosome for to receyue the soules of his children and that the same region or countrey is not celestiall but it is yet neuer the lesse more higher then hell in which the soules of the righteous doe rest vntyll such time as the consumation of the thinges restoreth the resurrection of all men thorowe perfect rewarde I doe not prayse that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place wythout witnesse of the Scripture but I thincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of suche thinges wythout wytnesse of the same and I had rather staio my selfe vpon the sentence of sainct Augustine which sayth that it shoulde bee very good that an vncerteyne thing of which not onely the Scriptures doe make no mention of it but doe speake the contrary that
now Eusebius There is no doubt of it Theophilus Sith that it is so tell mée what soules went thether For eyther it must bée altogether emptie and voide or else it must be that some went thether eyther those of the elect faithfull or those of the Infidels and reprobate Now I do not thinke that thou wilt say that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate Eusebius One may so iudge by that which is written of the wicked rich man. Theophilus Sith then that hell was for the reprobate it followeth then necessarily that the soules of the elect shoulde goe into Purgatorye If it hée so to what ende serueth the Limbe For you doe saye that all the Patriarches Prophetes and true faythfull whiche are departed out of this worlde before the death and passion of Iesus Christe were there kepte and deteyned and they coulde not goe into Paradise vntyll such time as Iesus Christe had satysfied for them Wherefore I doe conclude accordinge to your doctrine eyther that the Limbe and Purgatorye were all one place and lodginge or else that the one of them two was voyde and supersâ—uous or that there was but one or for to speake the truth neyther the one nor the other For if the Limbe were for to receiue the faythfull that dyed in the fayth of the promyse made vnto Abraham what néede was there anye more of Purgatorye bad they not Purgatorye suffycient inough in the Limbes Were they not sufficientlye tormented to bée excluded from Paradise and depryued from the ioyes thereoff and from the fruytion of the glorye of GOD as you doe affirme For what more greater torment can a faythfull man haue then to bee depryued from suche a good thinge That is not onely a Purgatorye but a very hell Eusebius I do know that in hearing thée speake that thou which wouldest teache others art yet in greater ignoraunce and that thou vnderstandest verye euyll this matter The Limbe then was for those which were in such estate as those are nowe which haue finished their penaunce and haue made entire and whole satisfaction for their sinnes in this world which doe go strayght waye into Paradyse sauinge that those there cannot yet enter bicause that the doore was shutte vntyll that Iesus Christ came to open it and to breake the gates of Hell. Theophilus Wherefore was the Purgatorye Had it in it yet a certeyne other sorte of soules and of an other condytion then those which went into the Limbes Eusebius Yea. For thou mayst well vnderstande that all the faythfull which haue procéeded and bene before the comminge of our Lorde Iesus Christe haue not all of them bene so holy and so perfect as the Patriarches and Prophetes Wherefore it were no reason that incontinently after they are deade they shoulde receyue as much felicytie as they wythout they doe first accomplishe and ende their penaunce in Purgatorye and satysfie for their sinnes the which they haue not done in thys world as the holy Patriarches and Prophets haue done or otherwyse GOD shoulde not bée iuste For what reason is it that hée whiche hath lyued in all viees and sinnes all the time of this lyfe vntyll the laste tyme of hys death in whiche gée hath had repentaunce of hys sinnes and hath asked mercye of God shoulde haue no more gréeuous punishment but should receiue as great reward as he which al his life time hath serued God faithfully and hath alwayes lyued in holynesse righteousnesse and innocencie Theophilus Take héede thou doe not blaspheme God and doe imurye vnto his grace and mercye For I doe greatly feare but that thou wilt bée like vnto the brother of the prodigall childe who was enuious against his brother and murmured against his father béeing angrye at the gentle receiuing and of the grace and fauour that hee dyd vnto his sonne whome he had recoured béeing reduced and brought into the right way or least that thou be one of the companions of theÌ„ which were hired to work in the vineyard which did murmure against the good man of the house bicause y he did giue as much wages vnto those whom he called at the eleuenth houre a little before night for to work in his vineyard as vnto those whoÌ„ hée appointed from the morning which haue borne the burthen and heate of the day Wherfore dost thou not accuse our Lord Iesus Christ who hath aunswered vnto that poore theefe who dyd hange vppon the Crosse â—â—yth him This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise What good déedes had hée done before Art thou enuious of the grace which God doth vnto the poore sinners Eusebius God forbid But we must vnderstand that as God is mercifull so is hée righteous And if the théefe which was crucified with Iesus Christ had had that priuiledge it followeth not therefore that all haue the lyke or that they ought to haue it For as the lawe makers doe say the priuiledges of a fewe are not common lawes to all men Theophilus If that théefe hath receiued so greate goodnesse by one singular priuiledge I doe aunswere vnto thée further that none is saued but by priuiledge For all wée haue meryted eternall dampnation of our nature Inasmuch then as wée be saued that is thorow a singular priuiledge which is giuen of God vnto the elect by Iesus Christ which is not common vnto the reprobate Eusebius There is yet an other reason wherefore that théese went straight into Paradise wythout passinge by the fire and the paines of Purgatorye that is bicause that he had alreadye done his penaunce in this world and hath satisfied for his sinnes Theophilus What penaunce or satisfaction coulde hée haue made For the theftes and murthers for which hée was hanged on the Gybet Eusebius But it was the paine that hée endured and suffered and the death that he hath receiued for his demerites Theophilus As much did his companion suffer which was hanged on the left hande but yet neuerthelesse his torments haue serued him nothing at all and hée dyd not heare such promise of Iesus Christ as the other Eusebius Bicause that hée dyd not take his death and torment quyetly and patientlye and hath not beléeued in Iesus Christe and demaunded pardon of hys sinnes as his companion did Theophilus Thou alwayes commest vnto my compt and thou shalt hée compelled to confesse that there is nothinge which was the cause of his saluation but the faith which he had in Iesus Christ and the mercy of God which hée hath obteyned by the same without that that God had regard neither to his dignitie or worthinesse nor vnto his workes but vnto Iesus Christe his sonne for whose loue he hath pardoned him not for the forment and death which the théese hath suffred and the satisfaction that he could doe vnto him but for the forment death and passion which Iesus Christ hath suffred the satisfaction that he hath made for him the which
Sainct Cyprian hath well vnderstanded of whom the witnes is alleged by the maister of the sentences For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer suffred Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles Martirs and confessors should be put together they should not be sufficient for to put out the least sinne in the world For God doth not take onlye for satisfaction the torment but regardeth the worthynes of the person of which he receaueth the raunsome the whiche was not found sufficient but in Iesus Christ Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer were approued and allowed of God for satisfaction and cause to auoyd the paines of Purgatory there shoulde bee no men more happier and blessed then the théeues murtherers brigandes and other malefactors which are executed by Iustice And there would bee none which would not but become a théese or murtherer or to coÌ„mit some fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iustice to auoide the paines of Purgatory For if the doctrine of your diuines be true the fire of Purgatory surmounteth al the paine that a man can suffer in this life and it is so hot and burning that the visible and materiall fire of this world is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same Hillarius I cannot vnderstand in what place of the holy scripture they haue séene that I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch who hath witten that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are so great and so cruell that there is asmuche difference betwéene them and those that wee do suffer in our body and in the flesh as there is difference betwéene that which happeneth vnto vs in dreaming and that which happeneth vnto vs waking In somuch that all that whiche we doe suffer in this worlde is but as a dreame in the respecte of the same Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue rehersed of Sainct Gregory be true I shal not be abashed that hee had rather choose when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things to be in paine and sickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory bicause that hée prayed for Traianus and deliuered him from hell For although that he complained in his Epistles that hée is so much gréeuid with diseases and so great dolours that his life is vnto him nothing but paine yet neuertheles it is verye casle in comparison to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory Thomas To what purpose hath the Angell giuen vnto him to choose one of those two paines By doing good ought euill to happen vnto him Hath hée fetched out Traianus from hell against Gods will If our Priestes had such a payment for to drawe soules out of Purgatorye I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their masses Hillarius It were necessary that sithens they haue begunne the fable to ende it for to make it accorde and agrée with that of Theseus and Pyrothus who as the Poetes do witnes are punished in the hells bicause that they woulde take awaye Proserpina maugre the God Pluto Theophilus That is yet nothing in comparison to that that I haue said They do kindle that fire more For they do affirme that the same of Purgatory and that of hell is al one and that there is none other difference but that the same of hell is eternall touching his office but the same of Purgatory is not but as touching his substaunce bicause that the soules go out some time Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moste gréenous that euer was but whiche is more Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and surmounteth the dolours torments which Iesus Christ hath suffred in his death and passion What blasphemy can be more greater For what hell can be more truell then that which Iesus Christe hath suffred for vs when hee take vpon him the cursse due for our sinnes for to deliuer vs Thomas Do they not alledge some place of the holye Scripture for to proue that Hillarius Where shal they finde it their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his by whom beeing asked of the paines of Purgatorye aunswered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burne yet it could not be compared to the paine and beate of Purgatorye bost thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of such Theologians Eusebius Although that there were no Scripture that we had but our naturall sence the which God hath giuen vnto vs yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and necessarie that there be a Purgatorye in whiche the sinful men may he punished for those sinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce For it is not written with out cause Nullum malum impunitum Nullum bonum irrenumeratum That is ther is none euil which shal not be vnpanished nor no goodnes which shal not be vnrewarded Theophilus Although that those wordes are not reryted in the scripture after that manner as thou doost receyte them yet neuertheles I am content to allow it to be true I doe not deny but that God is as iust as he is merciful For otherwise he could not be god But we ought to consider by what meanes he doth exercise his iustice mercie towards vs There is no doubt but the our sinnes do deserue great punishmeÌ„t And therfore hath he giueÌ„ vnto vs Iesus Christ his sonne hath deliuered him to death for vs that our misdéeds should be punished in him that he do satisfie for vs to his souereigne iustice for to obteine of him grace mercy in his name Thou seest theÌ„ that there is none euil which is not vnpunished for to satisfie the rightousnes iustice of god but ther is differeÌ„ce in the maÌ„ner of punishing Forâ—â— he that hath bâ—ne the euil beleeueth in Iesus Christ and hath full hope and trust that thorow his death passion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remission of his sinnes thorow that saith he is the true member of Iesus Christ and adopted for the sonne of god If hee bee a true member of Iesus Christ and a true childe of God hée his sinnes are punished in Iesus Christe who for that cense hath borne the iudgement and tursse of God for all the elect But if the sinner bee an Infidell and whiche hath no parte with Iesus Christ the wrath of God falleth vppon him and he cannot escape the Iudgement of God but that his sinne be punished in himselfe in hell fire And euen as our euill deedes are punished in Iesus Christ so are our good déedes rewarded in him and by him allowed of the celestiall Father which crowneth his good
rather we ought to conuert tourne them to our vse and profite as things recouered taken away from vniust possessours for to make them serue to their true possessours If they doe then admit the iust and reasonable excuse of Mantuan and doe attribute anye authoritye vnto Saint Augustine they ought not to doe vnto me worse then to other And if it séeme vnto any of our sages and wise men that the same is but lost time and that we néede not now any more to discouer the abuses bicause that they are already sufficiently discouered and opened I am of the contrary opinion and doe know cleane contrary by experience I knowe not whether the sages haue séene the abuses so vncouered and whether they which dare not speke of Iesus Christ but with halfe a mouth and dare not preach but secretly haue founde people among them of so sharpe and earnest a spirite that they doe know all things and are ignoraunt of nothing But as for vs which are héere we haue experience cleane contrary For sithens that the Gospell hath bene preached already ten or twelue yeares in some places and fréely the which men dare not in all places and the abuses haue ben manifested so cléerely and playnly as the same is cléere at hye noone we are yet all abashed that we doe finde dreamings errours and great superstitions in some yea in those in whome a man would not thinke and yet we doe thinke that we haue alreadye much profited in the knowledge of god But that is meruayle that of the marke carecter of the Diuell which is so harde to deface and of an olde custome which is so hard to teare out and so much the harder the worse it is Wherfore I shal be much abashed that there where one dares not speake of Iesus Christ nor to open his mouth agaynst Antechrist that the errours and abuses were all so cléere and manifest that there was no more néede to speake of them inasmuch as héere and there wher the truth is clâ—rly fréely preached one cannot tell which way one can plucke and teare them from the hearts of men and that it is not requisite to say or speke any more against them Or it must be that God hath there more amply shed out his grace or els that there are héerâ— very dull spirites and wits in comparison of others But I feare rather that those which glory in themselues to know them so much know not themselues the moite and vnderstande very euill that which they thincke to knowe For if they had intelligence and vnderstanding such as they thincke to haue and that they dyd knowe the abhomination such as it is and howe it displeaseth God and is noisome and hurtfull vnto his church they would retyre and drawe themselues further from it then they doe and it should bée vnpossible that they could sée and suffer it but would flée rather away from thence or they would suffer themselues rather to bée burned then to dissemble and consent vnto it But would say as the faithfull of whom the Prophet hath written which doe consider the grace which God hath done vnto them and comparing them with their first condition say to the great abhomination of al Idolatry Fie get you hence And therefore one cannot to much manifest the abuses For truth cannot be knowne without discouering them pulling them downe And in dooing that one doth manifest them vnto those who knoweth theÌ„ not yet which shal be alwaies more in nuÌ„ber theÌ„ we would the which we must draw away Afterwards the thing may serue them which already haue the knowledge many wayes First for to refreshe and quicken the memory from the darknesses in which they haue bene to the end that they may knowe the better the blindnesse infirmitie of mans vnderstanding what he may do of himselfe when hée wyll bée guided by his owne head and forsake God and his woorde for to followe men and their traditions Afterwardes that shall serue them for a remembraunce and signe of the triumph of Iesus Christ and of his truth to the confusion of Sathan Antechriste lyinge and mans wisdome who wyll exalt hymselfe aboue the knowledge of GOD to the ende that hée haue more occasion to humble himselfe to acknowledge the mercye that GOD hath done for him and to render thanckes vnto him And that hée bée more prudent and better aduysed héereafter and praye vnto the LORD more earnestly that hée doe kéepe hym that hée doe neuer fall againe into such or like errours and inconueniences Furthermore that shall serue hym as a pricke the better to pricke him forwarde to indignation against Antechriste and to haue compassion vppon the poore ignoraunt people and his wandering and erringe bretheren and to take wyth more greater courage the cause of the trueth in hande considering the vnworthynesse of the thing And he that shall bee yet weake should fortefie and strengthen himselfe and hée that shall bée already firme and stronge should confirme himselfe more For all these causes and reasons GOD woulde that the errours and sinnes of the people shoulde bée registred and hath so many tymes commaunded that they should bee remembred And the Prophet Esay dyd not admonishe so many times wythout cause the people after that hée had well mocked them for Idolatry that they should remember those thinges to the ende they maye the better knowe the iudgement of God which is vppon the Infidels which are as bruite beastes and what treasure it is to haue the truth of God and his woorde And if any man wyll yet saye that notwythstanding that it is not euill but very profitable and necessary to shewe foorth and declare the abuses yet neuerthelesse wée must not procéede in such sort which should séeme peraduenture vnto some men more proper and fitte for to bée offended then for to bée edified by it I doe aunswere vnto the same that I knowe not what those shall bée that shall reade those bookes nor what occasion they maye haue to bée offended I doe thincke that they shall not bée so much estéemed that many people woulde reade them Beside that many peraduenture woulde whiche cannot But howsoeuer it bée if those that doe reade them are good and vertuous people and fearing GOD they shall knowe that I studye not but to manifest the veritie and to glorifie Iesus Christ that those whom I rebuke are not onely worthy to bée mocked but vnworthy that the earth beareth them excepte they wyll acknowledge their faultes and giue glorye vnto god If they were â—picures and contemners of GOD they can be no worse then they are and therefore knowe in what reputation they ought to bée vnto all good people and that they are vnworthy to be taken and accompted not onely for Christians but for men béeing a great deale more worse then bruite beastes If they bée Pharises and obstinate Hipocrites and that they doe séeke the
could be done Theophilus It hath taken as good effect among the superstitious ChristiaÌ„s as among y panims For euen as the Panims hipocrites haue ben the Apes of the Patirarches Prophets and true seruants of God so haue those bene héere For all that which the Panims dyd dyd séeme to haue some coulour and imitation of the lawe whiche God gaue vnto hys people For that which they sacryficed in the mountaynes that they caused the chylbren to passe thorow the fire sacrificed them vnto Moloch and the wasshings that they had dyd seeme to be taken of the custome of the auncient Patriarches and of the people of Israell after that sorte as the Turkes doe followe them at this daye who doe spende and bestow a great parte of the time aboute such wasshinges and Ceremonies But there is greate difference For although they followe somewhat in outward appearaunce the woorkes of the auncient seruauntes of God yet neuerthelesse they fayle greatlye in that that they doe it wythout the commaundement of God followinge onely their foolishe santasie and opinion And they dooe it not in such fayth to such intent and wyth suche a spyrite as they dyd For they dyd them to render obedyence vnto the commaundement of GOD the whiche was vnto hym a sacrifice more agréeable then the Ceremony which for that ende was ordayned Nowe these héere cannot scriue God by such obedyence sith that they haue no commaundement But they doe offende thorow disobedience despysinge the meanes that he hath commaunded and choosinge others contrary vnto his wyll Furthermore the true Israelites dyd not thinke to bée purified by those outwarde thinges but had regarde onely vnto the bloud of Iesus Christe by them represented And they trusted but onelye in the mercye of god But those â—éere doe attribute the vertue vnto the outwarde woorke and to the creature sayinge that such Ceremonies and Sacraments haue efficacy by the vertue of the woorke done Or if thou louest rather in theire naturall language Ex virtute operis operati Nowe if the Prophetes haue rebuked and condempned the vipocrites who haue put the whole trust of their health and saluation vnto the ceremonies commaunded by the lawe of God and haue reiected and reproued their sacrifices and purifications how much more are our hipocrits to be condemned which do not only make a god of their works but which is worse doe make the same of the woorkes which are nothing at all commaunded of God but altogether condempned Hillarius Wée may rightly compare them vnto those good merchaunts of whom Ouid maketh mencion after this manner Hard by Capena gate there is of Mercury a well Wherein is vertue rare and straunge as cunning folkes doe tell For Merchaunts doe thether repaire with pitcher ready pight And therewithall doe water drawe by vertue of whose might The Laurell branch is dropping wet and all those things that shall By Masters right be set to sale are sprinckled therewithall And after that his head is wet by sprinckling of the bayes Vnto the Gods in wonted wise his prayer thus he sayes Wash off sayth he my periury of those times that are past Wash of my false and fained woords my falsehood now off cast Bycause that they holde and accompt Mercurius for the God of the théeues it semeth vnto them that the one of the théeues wyll easelye absolue the other and that the larcenies periuries and rapines shall be washed away as soone as they shal cast a little water vpon them Wherfore our Papistes knowing that they haue the like God in the earth do the like Theophilus Therefore it is more then néede to crye with Esay Be ye washed Be ye cleane But how Put away the euill from your thoughts before mine eyes saith the Lorde And with Ieremy O Hierusalem wash thine hearte from wickednes And with Iesus Christ Thou blind Pharisie clense first the inside of the Cup and Platter that the outside of them maye bée cleane also Giue almes of that you haue and béehold all thing is cleane vnto you And therefore must wee say with Dauid O purge mée with Isop and I shal be clean wash thou mée and I shal be whiter then Snowe For there is none which can make that holy water but he only who hath put the ministry of his Gospel in his Church which is the true sprinkeling of Isop which thorow the preaching of Iesus Christ crucified sprinkeleth and purgeth with his precious bloud our soules and consciences Hillarius There is nothing truer then that thou sayest as I will yet declare more perticulerly First as touching the purifications sprinklings of water that is already too muche proued of the same is taken that which Ouid writeth of Deucalion and Pirrha his wife willing to enter into the Temple of the Goddesse Themis of whom he speaketh after this manner after the translation of the English Poet. Whose sacred liquor straight they tooke and sprinkled with the same Their heads and clothes and afterward to Themis Chappell came In like manner Ouid rehersing the things which were called Februa bicause that the auncients vsed it in their purgations maketh mention of the woll salt meale and bowghes which they caused to be consecrated for diuers purifications of men beasts and houses the which things the Papists haue almost altogether the like For besides the water and the fire the war and the salt they haue as many holy wolles holy linnen clothes and sacred vestements They haue the holy bread and the bread of Sainct Agathe which hath also great power and the holy bowghs vpon the day of Palme Sunday and of Caster flowers But the Panims do approche neerer to the auncient lawe of Moses in their holy asshes then the Papistes For the Iewes dyd it with a red Cow young and which neuer carryed yoke The Panims dyd theirs with a young Calfe newely taken from his mothers belly the which the most auncientest of the virgins of the Goddesse Vesta as wee may say the mother of the Prioresse burned in that holy fire which was made vpon the aulter of the saide goddesse as it appeareth by these verses of Ouid saying The eldest virgin amoÌ„gst theÌ„ then those calues doth burn with fire To haue the asshes not to seeke when time shall then requite That when the feast of Pales doth approch at hand so fast The people may be pure and cleane when it is on them cast Theophilus I doubt not but that Panish superstition was some thing taken of the imitation of the people of God but that whiche was done by the people of God vnto his honoure and contayninge the misteryes of the redemption was done in Idolatrye and superstition without faith amonge the Panims as it is now amonge the Papistes Hillarius I am of thine opinion But yet neuerthelesse mee thinketh that the Panims haue more shewe and colour for to defend them by the word of
works in vs For nothing pleaseth him but Iesus Christ his welbeloued sonne in whom he deliteth and no workes can be found agréeable but his For there is no goodnesse but in him Wherefore if we will haue any good thing in vs we must séeke â— borrow it of him And if we will that our works be pleasing vnto God it is necessary that Iesus Christ do them in vs thorow his holy spirite or otherwise the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good nor yet giue vnto them reward Eusebius I doe greately doubt that in magnifiyng so much the grace and mercy of God and the efficacie of the death and passion of Iesus Christe you giue occasion vnto many to doe euill without euer caring to do any good workes For if that men haue once this opinion that they are saued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God and that they cannot merite paradise by their good works what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not serue them no more then the euill Theophilus I do feare moreouer that the doctrin which thou holdest doth induce and leade them vnto that which thou sayest For how many hath there bene who hauing that opinion to satisfie in Purgatorye for their sinnes haue giuen themselues vnto al vices during their life hoping that they will prouide so well to their affaires that for golde and siluer they shal be incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead And so by that meanes they did thinke that it was not néedefull to studye to doe good workes For they did hope to finde in their purse all that that shoulde bée néedefull for theyr saluation But for asmuche as it is a question touchinge good workes whom doest thou thinke can doe them best eyther the seruant which laboreth thorow feare and compulsion who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his master or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde or the sonne who thorow an entier loue towards his father and taketh pleasure in none other thing but to serue and honoure him wel bicause of the natural loue that he beareth vnto him and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath reâ—â—ed and doth receiue daily of him without any seruile feare but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him Eusebius There is no doubt that those whiche serue onely for feare to be punished or for hope of rewarde cannot serue faithfully nor lawfully but are as the seruaunts which serue to please the eye and do good seruice whilest that the master is present notwithstanding they haue no good will towards him Theophilus Yet neuertheles those which do follow the doctrine the which thou holdest are altogether like vnto those here For either they do giue themselues altogether to their pleasures and delites hoping that they will satisfie by money for their sinnes and redéeme themselues or if they studie to doé well they doe it not but thorow feare as a subiect doth serue a Tyraunt fearing â—o fall into his hands or as Merconaries Hirelings not for the loue they haue to god but for the loue they haue to themselues And so by that meanes eyther they do make GOD like vnto a cruel Tyraunt or to a polling Iudge théefe who for money absolueth the euill doers and as a companion of théeues taketh his parte of the hootie with them or els they make themselus god doe worship the workes of their handes sith that by them they do saue themselues and merite Paradise Wherefore they haue no néede of Iesus Christ I demaund of thee which art but a sinful man if thou wouldst take for a true friend a man which should do vnto thée seruice only for y feare that he hath of thée least thou shouldest do vnto him hurt or for hope that he should haue to feare thée better wout which hee would make none accompt of thée nor would not set by thée Eusebius I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin which loueth more his belly theÌ„ me of whoÌ„ he is a friend not of me Theophilus And yet neuertheles if thou dost wel consider the nature of the Hipocrits Pharises who do attribute somuch vnto their workes thou shouldest finde them of such an amitye towardes God for whose loue they doe not that they do but for the loue of theÌ„selues and doe not serue god but after y manner as the beastes do serue men or for the feare that they haue to be beaten or for the nurrishment and foode that they doe receiue But without staying our selues anye longer vppon that pointe let vs returne vnto our talke of the Limbe sith that thou puttest the Limbe for the one and Purgatory for the other what difference dost thou put betweene those which were in the Limbe and those which were in Purgatory sith that the one and the other according to your doctrine were depriued of the fruition of God I doe greatly feare that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgatorie will become hell For if the holy fathers aswell Patriarkes as Prophets were depriued from such a goodnes wherein did they differ from the dampned And in like manner those whom thou ledgest in Purgatorye what néed haue they of any more greater tormeÌ„t or of any other fire for to torment them And what solace can they haue more then y damned if they were depriued froÌ„ y loves of Paradise and yet besides that to bee deteined in the fire Hillarius But at that time for that there was no Masse nor papistical Priests for to pray and do sacrifices for the dead they should continue a long time in those paines torments And which is more sith that in that time none could enter in Paradise when they had accomplished the time of their paines in Purgatorye whether went they when they departed from thence They could not but departe from one hell for to go into an other that is to say from purgatory to the Limbe where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked fast in the prisons of Purgatory vntill the comming of Iesus Christ Theophilus For to speake the truth I finde no great difference betweene hell and those other two lodgings Eusebius But there is great difference For these here do hope to come once vnto the eternall felicitie from y which the dampned are altogether depriued Theophilus There is then none other difference but that the one are defeined and kept in hell and dampned for euer the others are not but for a time And so your Limbe and Purgatory shal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origenistes and Catabaptistes who were in this foolish and false opinion that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually but that all those whiche are deteyned in hell after a long space of time shal
time what fault can be in the child and what consolation doth your doctrine bring vnto the poore mother being alreadie sufficiently scourged and afflicted of the hand of God to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vnto perpetuall exile and banished from Paradise for euer And that hee is detayned in the Limbe in the which without ceasing hee curseth Father and mother At the least wyse the Carhards haue preached and perswaded them so Thomas Yea I haue heard them preach more ouer that is to say that it were better that a Towne a Ceuntry or a kingdome were drowned then an Infaunt shoulde dye without baptisme Theophilus If the Infant did come vnto the age of discretion and that hee despisoth the baptisme I would not excuse his infidelitie and rebellion Or if the father mother thorough their negligence dispising infidelitie haue made none accompt to baptise their child I would not also excuse them but that they should yeld them selues greatly culpable before God worthy of greeuous punishment But I will not yet neuerthelesse therefore iudge rashely of the saluation of the childe For GOD knoweth those that are his And man hath not power to danipue him whome God woulde haue saued And if it hath not pleased God to shewe that grace and fauour vnto the Father and Mother that they cannot sée their childe aliue for to offer and present him vnto him and to his Churche by the baptisme wherefore shall hée vse such furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents which are already ynough desolate and without comfort What iniury doe you vnto Iesus Christe These Infants borne dead shoulde not haue great occasion to blesse his comming nor to sing with those which haue receiued him when he entred into Hierusalem Blessed be the sonne of Dauid which commeth in the name of the lord They should haue hadde more iust occasion to cursse and detest him sith that in steede to amende their condition hée hath put them in worfe estate then the Iewes were before his comming You cannot denye that absurditie and inconuenience if you will mainteine your doctrine truely the which declareth it selfe altogether contrary to the doctrine of the gospell full of all consolation in stéede of which your doctrine bringeth but desolation and despaire Hillarius I can speake by experience For I haue knowen holy woâ—men walking in true simplicitie of heart and great feare of God which were so troubled in their conscience bicause that such inconueniences happened vnto them and that they were so perswaded that with much a doe one could sinde any meanes to comfort them and set their conscyence at rest and in quiet what soeuer things 〈◊〉 say vnto them Although that one tolde and affirmed vnto them that our Lady of Lausanne shewed grace vnto the Infant and that those which were present did witnesse vnto them of the goodly myracle that she had done in rayaÌ„ng to life the Infant for to baptise it being dead afterwardes did put him in the graue yet neuerthelesse all that coulde not assure them and they coulde not be at rest in their conscience vntill such time as thorough the preaching of the Gospell they were deliuered from those false oppinions of Caphards and deuillishe doctrines Theophilus That is that which sathan and the false prophets do desire the consciences shoulde be troubled desolate for then gaine they most They haue of meÌ„ that they desire their fishing is best in troubled water Eusebius Thou hast concluded that according to our doctrine it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde haue impaired the estate of the Christians But wherein For those of the Iewes shal no more enter into Paradise then those here Theophilus If they went into Abrahams bosome by the which thou vnderstandest the Lymbe there was no more greater punishment for them then for the others which were circumcysed sith that all doe goe thither indifferently as I haue sufficiently shewed vnto thee Afterwards those which then were in the Lymbe hoped to be deliuered the which is denied vnto the poore children of the Christians Wherefore it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde rather come for to showe and bring vnto them the wrath and iudgement of God then his grace and mercy Furthermore those which were in Abrahams bosome were not without hauing some taste and perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyse as it appeareth plainely by the wordes of Abraham answering vnto the rich man after this manner Thou hast had pleasure in this worlde Wherefore thou must howe suffer and that the chaunce be tourned And contrariwise Lazarus hath suffered greate tribulations and iniseryes Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at rest and ioy Thou canst not denye but that these wordes are true If they bée true thou art constrayned to confesse that in Abrahames bosome is consolation rest and ioy And howe can these thinges be out of the kingdome of GOD which is righteousuesse peace and ioye in the holye Ghost Eusebius I haue not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes being deade without Circumsition should go vnto the Lymbe of the fathers but into another Theophilus It behoueth then to forge Lymbes But where is the witnesse of the Scripture for to prooue the same And do the children of the Christians go straight way vnto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers Eusebius No. Hillarius Then there is presently a chamber to heyre Theophilus Doest thou not knowe into what dreams and foolishnesse that doctrine doth leade you Truely I am ashamed Wherefore I pray thée that thou do holde thy selfe content with that that I haue aunswered vnto thée and that nowe thou do come vnto the question which I haue propounded vnto thee to wit what difference thou puttest betwéene the bosome of Abraham and Paradise Eusebius I do not meane to passe thy question without aunswering vnto it But thou lettest slippe the principall obiection which I haue made vnto thee without hauing satisfyed mee therein Wherefore I would haue the resolution before thou doest escape mée Howe may wée then vnderstande that which Iesus Christ hath said Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the Spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god Doth he not by those wordes openly declare that the baptisme of the water is necessarie vnto saluation And that he which shall not be baptised with water cannot enter into she kingdome of heauen For he hath not onely sayde hee that shal be borne a newe of the Spirite but he hath also added the water for to declare that the one and the other are requisit I confessâ— that the water without the spirit suffiseth net and that the visâ—â—l◠〈◊〉 without faith cannot saue For it is first saydâ—â—â—â— thâ—◠〈◊〉 afterwards there is added and is baptised shall bee saued But I cannot vnderstand but that the baptisme of the water is in like manner necessarie vnto saluation Or I know not to what
ende Iesus Christe prâ—tended by those wordes that hee hath aunswered vnto 〈◊〉 Theophilus Before we do passe any farther note dâ—â—ygently that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath sayed He that beléeueth and shal be baptised shal be saued Yet neuerthelesse in the contrary proposition which followeth he hath not reâ—terated the baptisme He hath not saide he that beléeueth not and shall not be baptised shal be condempned But hath made only mention of the faith and of the beléeuing shewing that without the same none can be deliuered from condemnation the which he hath not affirmed of the baptisme And yet neuerthelesse he speaketh there of the outward and visible baptisme And not only of the same of the young children but of the â—lde and greate ones vnto whom the apostles were sent for to preach the Gospell Now iudge if Iesus Christ hath not required the visible baptisme of the greate ones as necessary vnto saluation how wil he require it of the young children I will geue none occasyon vnto any man by my wordes to despyse the Sacraments For thou knowest already what sentence I haue giuen against those that do despise it But I doâ—â—eane anâ— saâ— that if any good man were eyther among the Turkes or among the Idolaters and Infidels which had knowledge of the gospel true faith in Iesus Christ and that it was not possible for him to bee baptised I cannot beléeue that he should be dampned for lacke of a little water sith that he hath the principall to witte the faith or otherwise the water shoulde haue more vertue efficacie then the bloud of Iesus Christ or at the least as much And the Priest which administreth the baptisme should haue as much power as Iesus Christ himselfe For it should follow that euen as the water or the Minister in like manner can do nothing without the spirit bloud of Iesus Christ that Iesus Christes spirit also nor his bloud could doe any thing without the water and the Minister And so Iesus Christ and his espirit should be as much subiect vnto the Minister and the water as the water and the Minister vnto them And so consequently his grace mercy shall be bound vnto the corruptible elements subiect vnto men After that manner Iesus Christ should bée no more a true God nor a true Sauiour And so it is easy to iudge that such doctrine procéedeth not of God sith that it â—â—pugneth euidently the grace of God the iustification of faith and the annalogy of the saâ—ie and boâ—â—â— ouerturne altogether the mistery of y redeption made by Iesus Christ The which thing not onely the auncient Doctors but also the Scholasticals and Questionaries haue wel perceiued namely the master of the sentences which proueth by good reasons and by the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Church that some are iustified saued without baptisme amongest whom saint Augustine comprehendeth all those which are dead and haue suffered martyrdome for the conâ—â—â—â—ion of Iesus Christ In like manner the authoritie of Cyprian is sette foorth by the master of the sentences by the which he witnesseth that the saith the repenâ—aunce and conuersâ—on of the heart doth recompence and suffice for baptisme vnto those that haue not the time nor place for to receiue it they doe call it baptisme of 〈◊〉 And for confirmation of this he ioyneth to the example of the théeâ—e which was crucified next to Iesus the which saith he was not crucified for the name of Christ but for his demerits and wicked déedes And he did not suffer bicause â—e beléued but in suffering he beléeued It is then declared in that theeâ—e how much sayth aâ—ayleth without the Sacrament of visible baptisme The which the Apostle sayth The beléefe of the heart iustifieth and to knowledge with the mouth maketh a man safe But then hée doth accomplish it inuisibly when the necessitye shutteth vp and hideth the Sacrament of baptisme not the dispisinge of the religion Hee may haue some kinde of baptisme where he shall not haue couersion of y heart And the conuersion of the heart maye bée in some without hauing receiued baptisme But it cannot be ther where baptisme is dispised and we must not in no wise call that conuersion of the heart vnto God when the sacrament of God is dispised Be holde the witnesse the whiche vppon that matter Gratian alledgeth in his booke of decretalls and the master of the sentences taken of Cyprian addeth the same of Saint Ambrose touching the Emperour Valentiâ—ian who dyed without baptisme of whoÌ„ he saith I haue lost him whom I ought to haue regenerated But yet neuerthelesse hée hath not lost the grace the which hée required Now if we ought to haue such confidence and trust of the health and saluation of the great and olde men which coulde not haue the baptisme by a more stronger reason we ought to haue it of the young Infants For if they be of Gods elect it is in his power to baptise them in their mothers belly by his holy spirit to sanctifie them as it is written of Iacob of â—eremy Sainct Iohn Baptist of Saint Paul Eusebius How can we then absolue the proposition of Iesus Christ For it is generall and exclusiue without excepting any person Theophilus As much may I say of that that he hath said of his flesh and of his bloud speaking in this manner verely verely I say vnto you except ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shall not haue life in you Doth not that proposition counteruailâ— as much as if he had sayd whosoeuer shall not eate my flesh and drinke my bloud shall not haue eternall life none can denie the same It followeth then that all the younge children are dampned and all those which doe not coÌ„municate in the Sacrament of the supper if the Popish doctrine bée true that Iesus Christ is really in the hoast and that wée must there eate hys flesh and drinke his bloude after the manner as they haue taught vs It shall not be then no lesse necessary to keepe the consecrated hoastes and of the Gods in the boxe for to communicate to the little children to giue vnto them the Sacrament of the Euchariste as the same of baptisme For the wordes of Iesus Christ doe vrge no lesse in the one of the places then in the other And if thou doo thinke that there is great difference I wil shew vnto thée easely that many among the auncients haue perceiued iudged it to be so as I say or otherwise in the time of Charlemaine they woulde not haue kept the Eucharistia for to giue it vnto the little children when they were sicke if they had not esteemed the thing very necessary Yet neuerthelesse it is written in the booke of Ansegisus Abbot of Liege that the same was done in that time there and reciteth the
adoption and of libertie as we haue receiued but y they were the sonnes of God as perfect in their estate condition altogether as wée But for to magnifie y vertue glory of Iesus Christ meaneth to shew vnto vs y the goodnesse y we haue receiued by him in his coÌ„ming are â—â—ut any coÌ„parison a great deale more excelleÌ„t insomuch y one may cal their light darknes in regarde of ours as he calleth that of Moses in comparison of that of Iesus Christ Touching the Purgatory I haue already sufficiently declared what I thincke of it And I do not sée that the place that is alledged of y booke of the Machabees is sufficient for to confirme it although that the booke be very auncient and worthy of credite and to be beléeued For although that Iudas Machabeus had done that which is there recited it followeth not therfore that we are bound to doe the lyke For the perticuler examples of some are no generall rules for all euen as I haue alredy touched speaking of y example of Zipphora Afterwardes that witnesse is all alone is there recyted more for to allowe the resurrection and for a publike witnesse of repentaunce then for to induce to praye for the dead as promisinge deliueraunce from Purgatory vnto those for whom it is offered Eusebius It is very true that the text sayth expressely that Iudas Machabeus dooinge the same had a holy and a deuoute thought of the resurrection but it is sayde immediatly afterwardes that the aduise and thought to praye for the dead to the ende they may bée deliuered from their sinnes is holy and well done Theophilus Yet the same concludeth nothing for the Purgatory For according to your doctrine the soules which are in Purgatorye are alreadye deliuered from their sinnes and there resteth no more but the paine And therefore wée should rather saye Vt à poems saluantur that is to saye that they maye bée deliuered from paines then Vt à peccatis saluantur that they may bée deliuered from sinnes Eusebius Thou doest not consider that sinne conteineth two things to wit the faulte and the paine I confesse that the true Christians thorow the faith in Iesus Christ are deliuered from the fault But it followeth not therefore but that they must yet beare the paine and satisfie in Purgatory Theophilus Whereto then serueth vs Iesus Christ And whereto profâ—teth us the forgiuenesse of our sinnes Eusebius Iesus Christ serueth vs to abolish the originall sâ—â—ne and the fault of our sinnes that they make vs not culpable of eternall damnation at the iudgement of God and to mitigate and make lesse the paine the which we haue merited and deserued Theophilus I can vnderstande none other thing by thy speaking but that God is as a prince who at the request of one of his very friendes or of the friende of the Malefactor sheweth grace vnto the Malefactor vpon such condition that if he haue deserued to bée burned or to bée put vppon the whéele that hée shoulde haue onely but his head cut off or if he had deserued to haue had his head cut off that hée should haue but one of his eares cutte off or that hée should bée but onely whipped or that he should be raunsomed with some peece of money the which he was bound to pay yet besides his grace and pardon Doest thou estéeme and thinke such grace and pardon to bée whole and perfect or whether thou wilt iudge that the Prince had wholy pardoned the Malefactor Hillarius Not I. Eusebius Is not that sufficient inough that Iesus Christ hath deliuered vs from eternall dampnation and that wée doe the rest if wée will or otherwise we should be saued to good cheape Hillarius Art thou afraide of that Eusebius or art thou angry and not well content with the goodnesse that God would doe vnto vs Theophilus Beholde Eusebius what Iesus Christ thou makest for vs and what credite thou giuest him towards God his Father If he cannot obteine for vs perfect grace and ful forgiuenesse from paine fault he is not a perfect Sauiour And God is not god For your owne Doctors do witnesse namely Raymond who as oftentimes as God pardoneth any thing vnto any one he pardoneth him wholy For otherwise God worketh not perfectly Whervpon they doe alledge the Verses which I haue already once spoken off Hillarius By that accompt Iesus Christ should not haue so much power credit as the Pope who by his Buls and pardons promiseth ful forgiuenesse of paine and fault Graunt at the least as much to the pardon of Iesus Christ as vnto the Buls and pardons of the Pope Thomas Take héede Eusebius thou make not God a Tyrant who béeing not content to chastice punish the revels and reprobate cannot pardon those which demaund grace and mercye whatsoeuer request one doe make vnto him but that he kéepeth still some roote of veâ—geaunce without forgetting the iniurye that hath bene done vnto him but that hée receiue satisfaction and recompence either on his body or his goods The heauenly Father béeing content with the raunsome of his sonne Iesus Christ for whose loue he hath defaced rent in péeces our bond that our debtes and sinnes doe come no more in remembraunce or otherwise he should not be true in hys promises which he hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes and seruauntes Eusebius To what purpose is it then written That it is a good thing to pray for the dead Theophilus Sith that the booke is not allowed nor receiued for autenticke in the true Church that shoulde bée great folly to stay vpon it any longer if I would not beare with thine infirmitie content thée more fully I do leaue off to alledge a coniecture very like vnto that which I haue spoken off Thomas Put it foorth Theophilus I haue somtimes thought that that proposition which is as a conclusion taken out of the history going before was not put by the author of the sayd booke but rather of some studiouâ— reader which hath noâ—ed the same in the margent and that it hath bene added to the text as it oftentimes happâ—neth in many good authors And I am not alone in that opinion but many wise and learned men besides mée And if one doe examine the thing well it is easy to sée y the continuation of the narration séemeth to be broken marred that y sentence hath ben put in y which was a curtein annotation consequence which some did make vpon y text as it oftentimes happeneth in reading the bookes noting the places y which we would haue to serue vs. Eusebius What reason hast thou for to proue the same Theophilus First this for that I sée oftentimes the examples and copyes of many bookes to varye the which varietie oftentimes is happened for such cause Furthermore I consider that in that time there was no mention made of
colde coniectures Nowe Iesus Christ who is the infallible veritie woulde not that we should builde the articles of our fayth vppon coniectures but vpon the expresse veritie For sith that he and his Apostles doe witnesse that they haue manâ—fested all that which was necessary to our saluation hath commended to vs so much the loue towards our bretheren it is not lyke to be true but is repugnant to the witnesse of Iesus Christ that they haue spoken vnto vs so obscurely haue giuen vnto vs onely some coniectures of this matter and of the loue that we owe vnto the dead the which the Priestes doe wrest it more then that which is due vnto those that be liuing Hillarius Bicause that Iesus Christ hath spoken so obscurely therefore they would make commentaries gloses for to declare it bicause that it bringeth vnto them more profit Thomas Thou hast opened a place Theophilus of which I would gladly be resolued that is to say of the preaching to the dead For to tell the truth I haue oftentimes dreamed mused after it bicause that I considered y according to the witnesse of the Scripture nâ—ne can haue saluation but thorowe the faith in Iesus Christ Now if we do compare those which haue knowne Iesus Christ and haue beleeued in him with those which haue not beleeued and which haue neuer hard him speake the number of those here shal be very little in respect of others Wherefore it followeth that there should be a meruaâ—lous number of the damned that the mercy of God shall not be so great as his rigor iudgement Now it is straunge to mans reason to iudge that God will dampne so many chieâ—â—y sith y he hath had as many which haue not known Iesus Christ for want that one hath not shewed him vnto them Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of those héere is not much out of reason And I would gladly know what places they can haue of the holy Scripture for to proue it for I will accord and agrée almost sooner to that then to the opinion of Purgatory Theophilus Thou hast moued a question the whiche cannot be expressed and absolued in few wordes For we must first declare what knowledge of Iesus Christ is necessary vnto saluation and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world among all people nations And how it hath ben sufficiently manifested vnto the elect for their saluation to the reprobate for their condempnation Insomuch that they are all inexcusable they cannot alledge ignorance sufficient for to excuse them And it is not néedfull that they haue any more preaching after this lyfe But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time that we maye speake more amply of it and better to satisfie the question which is made dayly touching the saluation or dampnation of our predecessors which haue liued in errour and ignoraunce Yet neuerthelesse bicause that the places which we haue accustomed to alledge for y preaching to the dead may also serue to the matter at this present time I am contented y we do entreat of them for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the same nor the Limbe nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make theÌ„ serue But for that that it may be that Eusebus doth put them foorth amongst his defenses it were better that we do delay that matter vntil such time as he bringeth it in by course in following his matter by order or if be do it not thou maist put me in remembrance Thomas Yet neuerthelesse before that Eusebius pursueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open I wil propound vnto him an argument concerning the point of which we haue entreated off that is to say of the remission forgiuenes of sinnes in the other world Whervpon I demaund of thée Eusebius when Iesus Christ did giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto his Church as wel in y person of S. Peter as vnto al y church generally that he declare the power of them of the ecclesiastical ministry hath he not sayd namely That which thou shalt binde in earth shall be bound in heauen that which thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen He sayth not That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde in heauen or in Purgatory or in hell or in the other world or in the other life and in an other earth but speaketh of this héere in the which the keys haue ben giuen in the which the Euangelical ministry hath his vigor and strength I wil not reiterate that that you said of the forgiuenes of fault paine For al that is against you But me thinketh that the Pope and those that haue receiued the power of him doe verye euill vnderstand their office willing to extend and stretch the power of their keyes pardons and indulgences vnto the other world and vnto the dead which haue their estate a part and seperated from ours and are no more vnder the iudgement of the church which is in earth which hath not to regard but on the liuing Eusebius Alexander of Ales Gabriel Biel haue very wel satisfied y obiectioÌ„ For they do answere y the dead ought to be accoÌ„pted to be yet vpoÌ„ the earth as touching y absolutioÌ„ or ligatioÌ„ binding or vnbinding vntil y they are passed entred into the kingdome of heauen For whilest y the soules are in purgatory they are vpon the earth sith that they are not yet in heaueÌ„ that they are yet of the Church militant not of y triumphaÌ„t Furthermore euen as those which are in the earth are yet in the way and not at the end full marke so are those which are deteined in Purgatory They are in passing for to goe to the countrey as touching the purgation by the which they are purged passe to the country as by y way Although y they are at the ende marke as touching the confirmation For they can no more sinne nor merit Furthermore all the while that they are ayded receiue comfort of the temporall earthly goods by prayers one may well holde accompt them for to be yet of this world sith that they doe communicate with vs of the goods which are there Hillarius He will accompt then of the dead as of the Monkes which are dead to the world in some pointes but not in other some They are dead to the world as to that that they doe serue and profit no person no more then the dead But they are not dead as to eating and drinking and to other carnall workes For in y there is not a people which doe better liue in the world nor which are more of the world Euen so shall it be of the dead They shal be dead to vs for to giue vs
worlde and causeth the lyght of his worde and gospell to shine thorow out the earth we ought not to doubt but that all those Madianits shal be in short time discouraged and discomâ—ited according to the Prophecie of Esay notwithstanding that the flocke and company of Iesus Christ be lyttle For it is puissant inough by vertue of their capitayne besides that they themselues shall bée discomfited with their owne swerde and shall fall into ruine with their Purgatory which hath but a lyttle hold or stay except thou do bring vnto it agayne some stone and morter for to repaire and amende it Eusebius I will employ all the meanes or wayes that I can finde out And therefore marke and regard how thou shalt ryd and discharge thy selfe of that which is written in Saint Luke where Iesus Christ saith The seruaunt that knoweth his masters will and prepareth net himselfe neyther did according to his will shall bée beaten with many stripes But he that knew not his masters will and yet did committe many things worthy of stripes shal be beaten with few stripes Now it is euen so that in hell there is neither little nor much For the paynes there are infinite And therefore it is called the hell fire the ertreame darkenes Wherefore it followeth that that pathe of which is heere spoken off cannot be vnderstanded but of the same of Purgatory in which may be more or lesse Theophilus There should be no hell if thou wilt so interprete the scripture What opinion hast thou of those of Sodome and Gomorrha Doest thou thinke that they be in hell or in Purgatory Eusebius I beleeue that they are in hell sith that their iniquitie hath bene so great that it must needes bee that God hath consumed them thorowe the fire of his iudgement Theophilus If there were founde among them some who féelyng the iudgement of God vppon them haue remembred the preaching admonitions which Loth made vnto them by the word of god and which haue had repentaunce and were sory for their sinnes in requiring mercie of God with a good heart and good affection in the middest of the fire I will not maynteine that God hath refused vnto them grace and mercie For he hath promised vnto the sinner as often as with a good heart he shall retourne vnto him Now if there be any such among them I leaue that to the iudgement of God who knoweth all things and those that are his For he punisheth sometimes some men with corporall paynes with the reprobate the which notwithwanding he condempneth not with them to eternall dampnation he punisheth them corporally as he chastiseth and correcteth his elect by affâ—ictions eyther bicause that they haue bene neglygent in rebuking the wicked and vicious or els that they haue giuen some consent vnto their vices and haue not hadde in recommendation the honour of GOD as they ought to haue had But bicause that they haue not abidden and continued hard hearted haue not sinned against the holy Ghost the Lord mittigateth their payne and is contented to chastice and correct them corporally for to humble them to make them to acknowledge their faulte and for to bée an example vnto others As the Apostle witnesseth of the Corinthians who for the dispising of the Supper of Iesus Christ were chastised of God with diseases and death Such might be the kindred of Loth. For it is not lyke to be true that Loth woulde haue taken allyaunce with them if they had ben altogether as abhominable as the others of the citie Yet neuertheles bicause they were vnbeleeuing of incredulytie and that they lyghtly regarded all things they were punished with the others for to giue others to vnderstande that it is not good to dwell among the wicked and to support their iniquitie Yet neuerthelesse I leaue the same to the iudgement of God who knoweth the hearts But I onely speake this to the ende we doée not iudge rashly of his secrets and iudgements except we haue expresse reuelation but those that haue perseuered in such a heart and such affection as they had when they would haue done vyolence vnto Loth and to his guests which he had receyued into his house and are dead in that wicked minde I doubt not but that they are perished For we haue the expresse word of god of the condempnation of such persons For I doubt not that of those Iesus Christ speaketh not when hée spake vnto his Apostles of those which reâ—ected the preaching of the Gospell Verely I say vnto you that those of Sodoma and Gomorrha shall be handeled more easely in the day of Iudgemet then those there In what place shall be that handlyng That shall not be in Paradise For where there is no payne there néedeth no mitigation Neyther shall it be in Purgatory For according to your owne doctrine it shall then cease It must néedes be then in hell Eusebius But how can that be in hell sith that the paine there is infinite Theophilus Thou must vnderstande that there is not so lyttle a payne which is not infinite and importable vnto him which is forsaken of God but yet neuerthelesse God may and can make his iudgement his wrath and indignation to be felt vnto some more then to other some But it followeth not therefore but that all men are constrained to cary it and but that it is a burthen importable to all men Therefore it is so often written that those which shal haue most sinned shal be most punished Now those vnto whome God hath giuen more fauour and grace and hath giuen more knowledge of his wil then the others doe sinne most griuously For they declare a more greater ingratitude malice and stubbernesse haue lesse excuse But it followeth not therefore that the ignorance and negligence doth excuse the others but that they haue their part Iesus Christ manaseth with a more grieuouser iudgement those which shall reiect his Gospell bicause that God hath shewed vnto them more grace and fauour then vnto the Sodomites and Gomorrians Wherfore they doe render themselues more culpable and inexcusable But although that the Gospell hath not bene preached so cléerely and plainly vnto the Sodomites Gomorians as vnto vs yet Iesus Christ doth not excuse them therefore altogether nor absolueth them of the iudgement of god But for to amplyfie the ingratitude malice of those which reiect the benediction and blessing of God he compareth them to the most execrablest that euer were vpon the earth Not for to iustifie the others but the better to confound those héere demonstrating vnto theÌ„ that their iniquitie is so abhominable that God condempneth thom whiche maye bée accompted and taken for good men in comparison of these not that they are but in comparison of the excessiue iniquitie of those héere After this manner we must vnderstand that place of S. Luke without dreaming out a Purgatorye For the