to the worldes ende Reade I beseech you the chapter your selfe and you shall see the fierce wrath of the Lord against them for this answere and for this doing He sweareth by his great name a dreadfull punishment that he will not vouchsafe to haue his name any more mentioned by them but he will watch ouer them for euill and not for good till they all be consumed by the sworde and by the famine with an vtter destruction This is the liking that God hath of following others before vs and of alleadging their examples without due care and consideration of their doings whether they were answerable to Gods word the rule of his liking and pleasure yea or no. By his Prophet Ezechiel againe he instructeth vs of his pleasure in this matter â— 20. v. 18. and deliuereth it for his absolute commandement In statutis patruÌ„ nolite ambulare vvalke ye not in the ordinances of your fathers neither obserue their manners meaning rashly vnadvisedly hand ouer head without examination howe these ordinances and manners pleased God For so saieth the prophet you may defile your selves either vvith Idols â— .19 or some other thing displeasing to God But if you vvill euer be sure and safe followe the true rule and the onely right vvay I am the Lord your God vvalke in my statutes keepe my commandements c. Which sound counsell the godly father had his eye vpon when he saide Non debemus attendere quid aliquis ante nos faciendum putauerit sedquid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit vve may not regard what some before vs thought meete to be done but what he who vvas before all men Iesus Christ our deare Sauiour did that that is our rule in whatsoeuer we are to imitate him I cannot omit to remember Lactantius his wordes in this matter Deorum cultores libentèr errant stultitiae favent suae à quibus sirationem requiras per suasionis eius Institut l. 5. â— nulla possunt reddere sed ad maiorum iudicia confugiunt quòd illi sapientes fuerint The vvorshippers of many Gods saith he doe vvillingly erre and favour their owne folly of vvhome if you aske a reason of their perswasion and opinion they can giue none but straight flie to the iudgement of their forefathers saying they vvere wise men c. And is not this the verie answer of Romish Catholicks at this day Can they giue any reason a number of them but euen this now mentioned of heretickes and Idolatours I vvas borne and baptized in this faith and mine owne father and mother charged me vpon their blessing to be of this opinion c. they were as wise men and women as we and such like But how good these answers bee you see if you either regard scripture or fathers to be taught by them Lactantius nippeth this folly we see by his words and euer it shall be derided Our soules cost more then that should pinne them on any mens sleeues were they neuer so neere or deare vnto vs. Clemens Alexand hath the like good speach Alii dicuÌ„t im pium est si non colamus ea quae nobis tradita sunt à patribus nostris religionem praevaricamur à matoribus datam Hac ratione sicuius pater latro fuerit aut sicuius leno à patribus sibi traditam consuetudinem mutare no debet nec ad meliorem viam à paternis erroribus reuocari Others say it is a great wickednesse if we worship not those things which are by our forefathers deliuered vnto vs and we betray the religion of our fathers but by this reason if any mans father were a theife or a bawde he ought not to chaunge the custome deriued from his father nor be reduced to a better way from his fathers errour Thus derideth he againe this fonde kinde of argument My father did so and so his father before him again therefore I will doe so anâ vvill not bee persvvaded Yea assuredly thus haue euer all truely instructed derided it And it neuer was nor neuer shall be a fitte aunswere for a childe of God When I thinke of this matter sometimes I make a comparison betwixt the body and the soule and I aske of a Romish Catholicke whether if his father and diuers others of his auncestoures had a bodily disease whereof they died for want of skill to cure it he nowe hauing the same successiuely after them and the cure well knowen would yet wilfully die of his infirmity as his forefathers did rather then swarue from the example and be cured He will answere no. And yet in the matter of the soule which is farre aboue the bodie hath not grace to consider what an absurd answer it is to alleadge his father vnlesse he know by the rule of gods word that his father indeed was to be followed So you see deare mother both your questions answered and how it is no new matter but a very ancient subtiltie to entangle men and womens mindes with the examples of their forefathers because naturally we all reuerence and loue those of whome we are descended But it is no right way For we both may and ought sometimes to dissent from them and yet not sit in iudgement vpon them as though they were damned God beeing indeede able to saue them as we haue heard neither ought we thereby to take occasion of presumption to condemne the grace offered vs though denied to others as we ought not to refuse a bodily medicine to saue our life because our fathers know it not Surely if they had had the light that is vouchsafed vs they would haue excelled vs as farre as angels excell men M. I see sonne gods spirit bloweth where it listeth and happy is the man and woman whose eare he openneth To heare is good and either to stoppe our eaâ—e or to harden our heart with a premeditate opinion is most dangerous for as the Apostle perswadeth to hospitality because so men haue receiued angels into their houses so by hearing is god receiued who made the angels and by refusing to heare the doore is shut vpon him most dangerously and be excluded S. O deare Mother giue your owne flesh and blood leaue with knees of heart bowed before the Lord to reioyce for this your holy speech to praise the name of the most high whose mercy hath neither bottom nor measure and to beseech him for his sweete sonnes sake to goe forward in mercy and pitty towards his deceiued children that they may see their saluation in Iesus Christ embrace the trueth and be saued M. To this your prayer sonne I say with all mine heart amen But yet I haue not done with you I haue heard some say that if this way that you so dislike to follow the church of Rome and to beleeue as we are taught by the successours of Peter were to goe astraie why hath it not beene noted so till now of late yeares Can any of
indeed and therfore to be receiued helde and defended though for a thousand yeares the Lord hath made it a straunger in this or that place to punish thereby the sinnes of a kingdome or countrie Vetus consuetudo non praeiudicat veritate Olde custome doth not preiudice the truth saith good S. Austen Nec dici debet â—ug De Ciuit. l. 10. c. 32. quare modò quare sero quoniam mittentis consilium non est humauo ingenio penitrabile Neither may we say why commeth it now Good Mother marke it why commeth it so late for the councell of God that sent it is vnsearchable to the wisdome of man Thus speake the Papists in these daies where was your religion before Luther where hath it beene this many hundred yeares had God no Church till now c. But S. Austen telleth theÌ„ they speake not well they ought not to say so for Gods councell is known to himselfe and we cannot reach vnto it Religionis autoritas non est tempore estimanaa sed numine nec quo die sedquid colere caeperis iutueri convenit quodenim verum est serum non est The autority of religion must be weighed by god not by time we must coÌ„sider not vpon what day but vvhat thing we began to worship the thing that is true is neuer to late The Iesuits tell vs wonders of their conuerting the Indians and other people to the Romish faith and woulde they like that those nations should say where hath this religion beene all this while woulde they not say as Arnobius saith that which is true should euer be vvelcome Arnob. coâ—â— Genâ—â— howe long soeuer the time of darkenesse hath beene Why doe they then teach any to stand vpon such questions against the Gospel nowe preached Our Sauiour saith If I speake the trueth vvhy doe you not beleeue me and that is the good issue indeede to consider the matter whether it bee true or no which is euer found by the weight of the sanctuary the word of God Certenly we teach no false religion but offer the trueth for issue praying that if it be found true by the touchstone mentioned it may be entertained and so much the more hartely by how much shee hath beene long from home For so wee deale with our friendes and doe not vtterly denie them if they haue beene long away Certenly we haue planted no newe religion but renewed the olde I meane in respect of certen pointes corrupted by your men that was vndoubtedly founded and vsed by the Apostles of Christ and other holy fathers in the primitiue Church of this long late time by meane of the multitude of Romish traditions and vanities hath beene drowned with traditions fantasies though painted with colour of antiquity and continuance yet are new vaine and naught M. I cannot deny sonne but it is true that you say there may be vetustas erroris an antiquity of error for you know I haue some latin not yet forgotten and â—here may be a late beginning of truth in some particular place but it followeth not that either the error is truth because it hath bin continued long or the trueth error because in that place it was receiued but lately I like not this kind of reasoning whosoeuer vseth it for it is not sound neither stateth the conscience S. Good mother I know well you vnderstand the latin tongue and therefore haue I repeated many testimonies in latin to giue you your due praise this ability being not ordinary in women And what you say I thanke God hartely for praying you to consider that there be men on your side which so reason and so say Popery hath bin in england so long therefore it is truth and the gospel was reuiued but of late therfore it is error heresy apostasie and what not Surely mother you haue touched the quick such arguing is loose and staieth not the coÌ„â—cience it followeth not but is very childish Men may be called at the eleuenth houre yet as truly called as they who were brought into the vineyard at the very first and as fully shall be regarded if they come then The Lord may doe with his own as pleaseth him M. Yea but what say you sonne to our baptisme for that is a matter of moment we were all baptised into the Romish faith and vowed at the font to continue in the same Howe then shall we start from it without breaking our vow and offending both god and man In what faitâ— baptized S. Deare mother here first I wish a lattise window in my breast that the ioy of my heart for these your questions so fit and pertinent I hope profitable might appeare vnto you for they lead vs as it were by the hand to the consideration of those things which may fully satisfie any Christian heart And who can tell what the Lord of mercy wil doe who willeth not he death of a sinner but would haue al meÌ„ saued come to the knowledge of the trueth The Lord Iesus Christ who is the true sheapheard samp bishop of our soules giue a blessing to our conference Then to your doubt so well and to so good purpose moued I answere thus God forbid that either all or any of vs had beene baptized into the Romish faith You are deceiued and those cursed charmers that whisper such things to Gods people and cast such stumbling blockes before their eyes to turne theÌ„ out of the right way shall answer the Lord for so doing You are taught and told that all those who were baptised in those times when popery was receiued by the realme of England were baptized into the Romish faith which is not so wherein appeared the great mercy and goodnesse of God in preseruing the Sacrament of entrance and admission into Gods Church pure and sound concerning the substance of it euen in the greatest darkenesse and authority of popery This therefore I pray you vnderstand that we were all baptized in the time of popery into the same faith which nowe wee hold and baptize children in that is into the faith of the 12. articles for thus said the priest then in latin Credis in deum patrem c. as the minister doth now in English Doest thou beleeve in God the father almighty c. And the godfathers and godmothers answered then in the name of the child Credo as we doe nowe answere All this I stedfastly beleeve Then said the priest in latin againe as the minister doâ—h nowe in english wilâ— thou be baptized in this faith they answered then for the childe volo we nowe that is my desire Then tooke the pâ—â—â—st water and saide in laâ—in Ego baptizo te in nomine â—atris c. we say the same in engâ—â—â— I baptize thee in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost And this beeing the substance of baptisme see howe the Lord preserued it euen then pure and holy and all one was baptisme then
boast of disputation or say they haue prospered by it for we neede not to feare them God be blessed nor they to bragge of any winning There neuer wanted yet neither euer shall want both learned and vnlearned on our side whose spirits they shall not be able to resist writing preaching disputing they are the Gospels weapons and waies to build by Popery must take soÌ„e other course as yet in all times they haue done which holde that plough O that for further proofe of this point meÌ„ would be content without preiudice to read the Acts monuments of this our natiue countrie and English Church where we liue marking with a minde desirous of trueth what answers haue beene made by simple women maides and girles vnto great Bishops and Doctoures in causes of religion faith to the great astonishment of their aduersaries the high glorie of God seene in their weaknesse so strengthened by him But nothig can bee more grieuous to that Church then to graunt leaue to doe this which surely bewrayeth they are afraide Hence come their lies and slaunders invented against that book which would full soone be discried of vs woulde we reade it If any haue beene in Westminster ball at tharraignment of a misdoer we willingly heare him a whole day to tell vs the manner of it what was obiected what answered what replyed and what concluded yet we will not read with our owne eies hauing it so notably penned for vs the conventings of holy Christian men and women before their iudges for matter of faith and saluation We wil talke of disputation disputations and ô that men might be allowed to speake freely without daunger of lawe what they are able and when the time was for theirs to speake what they would or coulde and wee stoode at the barre in bolts and yron to answere their obiections and profound learning we will not nowe reade what was then done said on both sides Surely I will say of that booke what I wish tried that after the ground of holy scriptures it will yeelde the greatest contentment Men shall see men women shall see women age shall see age and youth youth brought to the triall howe they answered howe they suffered howe flesh startled howe the spirit conquered and in a worde howe God shewed his mercie and power infinite waies If we finde they speake well we may embrace it if otherwise leaue it The Lord hath giuen vs wisdome and reason and of his grace also I trust to be able to discerne if we would reade O why should our enemies hoodwincke vs so that we must neuer see but with their eies If the charge of this book be to much for one an whole parish might ioyne together and vse it by turners as leisure serued M. Sonne I see you are ready for eueuery way and therefore hauing gone thus farre in triall of what you could say and now being come to our iourneys ende I will goe no further with you at this time but reserue the particular pointes of controuersie till wee haue some fitte leisure and opportunity againe S. Good Mother when and howe you please But nowe ere we part I beseech you let me speake something to you with out offence I will not say much M. Speake on you shall doe more Then as yet you haue done if you any way offend me S. 〈◊〉 religious â—â—ite or a verâ—ous child to 〈◊〉 mother My suite is then most deare mother with a melting heart of an humble childe that you would vouchsafe to thinke of that which hath nowe beene spoken as also of this feare full course which you haue to long liked of in not comming to Church not receiuing the sacrament not hearing Gods word not obeying the lawes of your dread and gratious Soueraigne and of your natiue countrie It woundeth your credit and estimation with the best it hurteth my father daunteth your children blemisheth your house and wrongeth your friendes both neare deare most grieuously But ô father I say againe my heart bursteth and bleedeth to see howe he is eclipsed by it in comparison of others to whome he is no way inferiour either in birth in liuing in wisdome and experience or in any gift in body or minde neither hath his countrie that good from him or he that good from his countrie that might be had if you were reformed For how may he be thought so fit to rule others abroad that cannot be obeied of his owne at home His children therefore want him his friends want him his seruants want him yea he himselfe wanteth himselfe many times to his griefe Other things also I could name that better may be conceiued in your tender loue towardes him then by me expressed at this time O mother pardon your owne flesh in speaking thus boldly to you and knowe that it is but a part of your selfe that speaketh to your selfe in tender louect dutie When first my father matched with you he hoped of streÌ„gth countenance euery way to be increased to him both by your selfe and your excellent qualities wherewith God hath indued you and by your friendes and house to whome by this marriage he should be vnited not of any abashment and abatement in al these to him and his poore children the pledges of loue betwixt you And thus might it be it you would but alas thus is it not because hitherto you would not A fewe false charmers haue sunke deeper into your heart with their deceits then all your best friendes can with their faithful aduertisements And what is this els in you and others of your perswasion but that which euer hath bin done by the olde serpent the head and guide of these charmers In the Acts of the Apostles we read that the Iewes hating deadly the trueth of the Gospell preached by the Apostles and desirous to vexe them for it deuised this as the best means to stirre vp certaine honest and devout women against them which women should vvork with their friendes to expell such preachers from amongest them Nowe why women but because Satan hath euer had his aduaÌ„tage against this weake vessell why devout women but becavse a religious minde meaning well yet waÌ„ting knowledge is both quicklyer deceiued with shewe of religion and hottelier pursueth what it once beginneth doing more hurt in that false deuotion then many others not so well thought of And why honourable women but that might being added to blinde zeale both by power and example Satans cause might goe forwarde These charmers saith the Apostle againe shall still be creeping into houses lead captiue simple women By which often repeated name of women in the scripture all good women are effectually warned to beware Were there cause for you or any others thus to doe it no way could stand with religion to diswade you and in my selfe to you Mother it should be a double sinne because I am yours and aboue all wordly fauours ought to wish your eternall
Constantine the Emperour maketh mention in his time of Christian Churches in Britane â—od l. 1. c. 10. This was about the yeare 330. S. Hilary in his time intituleth his letter Clericis Tolosanis provinciarum Britannicarum episcopis L. de Synod To the Clergi of Tolosa and to the bishops of Britane This was about the yeare 360. S. Chrisostome of his time saieth m. quod â—ristus sit de Et in sulae Britannicae extra hoe mare sitae in ipso Oceano positae senserunt virtâ—tem verbi dei The Islands of Britane beeing in the very Ocean and farre out of this our sea haue felt the power of Gods vvord This he wrotte about anno 400. Theodoret saith Huic fidei consenserunt ouâ—nes Ecclesiae quaeque in Hispania sunt Histor l. 4. c. quaeque in Britannia To this faith haue agreed all the Churches both of Spaine and Britane What can be more plaine and more fully prooued if we be not wilfull Now all these fathers and writers liued sundrie yeares before the ariuall of Austine the monke and his fellowes Therfore they by no meanes coulde bee the first planters and publishers of the faith in this land Gildas writeth that in the time of Tiberius this land was Christian Hist Aâ—g l. 2 c. 2. Beda writeth that in his time and almost a thousand yeares after Christ Easter was kept here in England after the manner of the East Church in the full moone what day in the weeke soeuer it fell on and not on the sunday as nowe we doe whereby it is very manifest and probable that the first preachers in this lande came more rather out of the East then from Rome Therefore by all these proofes and arguments Rome is not the mother Church of England for it had the trueth long before Eleutherius or Austin I spare to shewe the bloodie crueltie of this Austin whome the papists make an Apostle with other his foule vices of pride and disdaine c. our stories shewe it and I may haue other occassion hereafter M. Well sonne I will nowe goe no further with you in these pointes but I will put a case or two and tell me your minde What if a Catholike be sworne to persist in the obedience of the Church of Rome and not to revolt howe can such an one without plaine periury take another course S. Indeede this is their diuelish practise and pollicy in these daies to steale the hearts and loyaltie of the people from their prince as Absolon did from his father but came to a foule ende to creepe into houses and lead captiue simple women 〈◊〉 6. as the Apostle saieth to snare them with oathes and vowes and promises whatsoeuer they can deuise cont Val. wherein they tread in the steps of the olde Valentinian heretiques worthily taxed by Tertullian of whom that learned father saith Aditum priùs cruciant they first torment their schollers at their entranceâ—ne discipulis quidem proprijs antè coÌ„mittant quà m suos fecerint they commit not their misteries and doctrine no not to their ovvne disciples before they haue made them their owne Habent artificium quo priùs persuadeant quà m edoceant they haue a tricke of legerdemaine first to persvvade before they teach Even as nowe our Iesuits and seminarie priests when they seeke to reconcile any to their mother the Church of Rome they take them sworne vpon the sacrament of the altar that they shall euer after cleaue fast to thaâ— synagogue renounce all our doctrine church assemblies And before they haue thus made them their owne and fettered their consciences with a vowe they doe not open their packet of Romish wares vnto them They beginn with perswasions and end with instructions But the trueth saith Tertullian perswadeth by instructioÌ„ instructeth not by perswasion ibidem Veritas docenâ— persuadet non suadendo doc And doubtlesse trueth is euer strong and will prevaile with as many as God hath ordained to eternall life The Lords sheepe may stray a time buâ— at last the cheife sheapheard that leaueth 99 in the wildernes and goeth to seeke what is lost will finde them in mercy and ioifully bring them to his folde and to the rest that straied not as they did Nowe touching your case good mother consider well in your selfe this one thing whether any vnder heaueÌ„ way lavvfully giue me an oath or I lavvfully take an oath either to doe vvhat God flatly forbiddeth me or to leaue vndone what God flatly commandeth me M. No sure I am fully resolued of that S. Then must I consider not onely that I haue sworne but to what I haue sworne and if I finde that vnlawfull you see my oath may not binde me against the Lord. Nowe we boldly avowe as you haue heard and euer so did we avowe that if any parcel of our christian faith wherevnto we perswade be not that which God in his word hath commanded and forbidden the contrary we will renounce it Therefore I must weigh the doctrine as well as my vow or oath and if the doctrine be true that I haue sworn against and that false which I haue sworne to keepe you haue confessed that you thinke this oath wicked and not to be kept M. Surely I cannot say otherwise for my conscience telleth me it is so S. Howe then is it that many thus entangled neuer goe about to consider the matter but altogether sticke to their oath and thinke with themselues I haue sworne therefore I may not chaunge M. I know it to be true and I see it is a falt for surely no oath ought to force me either to euill or from good concerning the loosing or sauing of my soule S. Your true opinion mother in this matter may be confirmed by examples out of gods booke Iephtha you know made a rash vowe Iud. 11. â— which is in the nature of an oath to offer to God what first met him out of his house wheÌ„ he returned home and had gotten the victory against his enemies His own daughter mette him first Did he well to kill her What if a dogge or a swine had met him beeing things that God would not abide to be vsed in sacrifice should his oath haue tyed him directly to doe that which god abhorred if not those theÌ„ not his childe if obedience be better then sacrifice of things lawefull how much more then sacrifice of such crueltie and vnnaturall blooddinesse Iephta therefore is condemned and euer shal be for this wicked keeping of his vow Herod made a promise to his dancing daughter you know the story did he well to keepe that oath Iudge in your conscience how God liked that fact The â—ext saith Mat. â—â— Herod was sorry wheÌ„ he heard her petitioÌ„ yet for his oaths sake he sent and beheaded Iohn Baptist in the prison O bloodie oath and sinfull keeping of it His coÌ„science whipped him whilst he liued for it and