yeares that none of the writers that gathered the monumentes of such auncient Fathers could once heare of them I meane Eusebius Hierome Gennadius The other testimonie out of the second of Nice which you quote as fondlie I will not stand vpon seeing it is of later time and lesle credit among such a number of bastardes made legitimat to set vp Idolatrie How well you haue iustified your nine slaunders and prooued Luthers Doctrine to be licentious and carnall I will not spend time in repeting let the reader iudge of that which hath beene brought on both sides The fift section entituled Other doctrines of Luther and of Caluine and Beza VVHat other absurdities you are able to bring out of Luther you haue giuen vs a sufficient taste in the former section in which you handle the matter of licentious libertie by which the indifferent reader may esteeme of the rest For ribaudrie scurrilitie and thameles falsehood of which you say you haue examples more infinit and without number when we heare of them you shall receiue answer either of confession defense or excuse But in the meane time you will note vs one or two thinges of impietie as they lie together in one treatise that we haue in England which he desendeth obstinatelie after they were condemned by the Church being such positions as cut the verie sinewes of all vertue and so open the high waie vnto all dissolution The first example is when he holdeth that the verie iust man in euerie good worke doth sinne mortallie by which saie you how doth he discourage all men from doing good I answer whatsoeuer Luther hath written to that effect as not to discourage men from doing good but to dissuade them from trusting in their owne doing when it is at the best And seeing there is so great imperfection in the best deedes of men he encourrageth men to labour more toward perfection He teacheth men therefore to a scribe to the grace of God that which is properlie his and to acknowledge their owne infirmity which without his grace can do nothing but euill which grace secing it is sufficient for vs in that his power is made perfect in our weakenes there is no discouragement either vnto faith or good workes for the sufficiencie of his grace shall comforte vs in faith and the strength of his mercie shal be glorious in our infirmitie Wherefore this Doctrine of Luther doth no more discourage men from doing good then he that saith whosoeuer hitteth not the pricke doth misse the marke doth discourage men from shooting as nighe as they can The second example of impietie is when he saith A man hath not in his power to doe euell Whereby saie you how doth he encourage all lewde people to wickednes deliuering them from the fault thereof But Luther doth neither of both For albeit he say that it is not in the power of man to make his waies euill because noe man hath anie power to do anie thing but from God in whome we liue mooue and haue our beeing yet doth he not deliuer the wicked man from the fault of his wickednes because he sinneth willinglie though he can do nothing els but sinne being destitute of the grace of God and therefore sinneth necessarilie for proofe whereof Luther alledgeth Augustine de spiritu litera cap. 4. saying Liberum arbitrium sine gratia non valet nisi ad peccandum c. freewill without grace auaileth not but to commit sinne c. And further he saith Ieremias quoque cap. 10. sic dicit Scio Domine quoniam non est hominis via eius nec viri est vt dirigat gressus suos Quid potuit apertius dici si via sua gressus sui non sint in potestate hominis quomodo via Dei gressus dei erunt in potestate eius Via enim hominis est ea quam ipsi vocant naturálem virtutem faciendi quod est in se. Ecce haec non est in arbitrio hominis seu liberi arbitrij Quid ergo liberum arbitrium est nisires de solo titulo Quomodo potest sese ad bonum praeparare cùm nec in potestate sit suas vias malas facere Nam malaopera in impiis Deus regit vt prouerb 16. dicit Omnia propter semet ipsum operatus est Dominus etiam impium addiem malum Rom. 1. Tradidit illos deus in reprobum sensum vt faciant quae non conueniunt c. Ieremie cap. 10. saith thus I know O Lord that a mans waies is not in his owne handes neither is it in man to direct his owne steppes what could be said more plainlie if a mans owne waie and his owne steppes be not in his owne power how shall the waie and steppes of God be in his power for the waie of man is that which they call the natural power of doing that which is in him Beholde this is not in the will of man or of freewill What is free will then but a thing of title and name onelie How can a man prepare him selfe to good when there is not in his power so much as to make his wates euill for God gouerneth euen the euill workes in the vngodlie as he saith in the 16. of the Prouerbes God hath made all thinges for him-selfe euen the wicked man against the euill daie and Rom. 1. God hath deliuered them into a reprobate minde to do those thinges which are not conuenient All power of doing is of God whether it be good or euil that is donne For the murtherer could not liue nor lift vp his hand but by the power which he hath of God who also ordereth euen the wickednes of the murtherer to good either for the punishment of him that is slaine or for his reward if he be slaine for the defence of his trueth and in a good cause and euermore turneth it to his glorie Yet is not the malice of the murtherer from God nor the murtherer deliuered from the fault of his wickednes because he doth not intend therein to serue God but his owne crueltie And this is that which Luther doth both saie and meane far from the slaunderous reporte of this malitious cauiller as his owne words do beare witnes The third example of impiety is that Luther teacheth that to fight against the Turke is to resist God him-selfe whereby saie you what a path maketh he to the empire of infidelitie But in truth Luther teacheth not that it is vnlawfull simplie and absolutelie to fight against the Turke but to fight against the Turke vnder the Popes banner The article is better gathered by the Collectors then by you sir defender Praeliari aduersus Turcas c. to make warre against the Turkes is to resist God visiting our iniquities by them And this article I do approoue saith Luther by a double experience of our infelicity The two experiences are these First that all praiers and Counsells of preuailing against the Turkes
fert misericordiam saith Saint Chrysostome We haue a meeke master he onelie taketh occasion and sireight he sheweth himselfe whollie to be giuen to mercie He appointeth to punish that they maie see what of iustice their sinne requireth yet he seeketh meanes himselfe that their high priestes and guides maie turne awaie the iniovned plague that they maie learne said the saide holie Doctor that they had their pardon not of their owne merites or deseruings but by Moses Patronage and praiers That you maie see thereby how one member relieueth through Gods mercie his sellowe member that lacked Whereby there appeareth both exceeding iustice much more mercie All his waies truelie be mercie and iudgement to such as loue his testimonies FVLKE Men must needs maruell at yourimpudencie that will defend a necessitie of temporall paine to be suffered by the partie whose sinnes are remitted for satisfying of Gods iustice and yet will haue the same be released without the parties suffering and Gods iustice be answered without the paine of the soule that offended For otherwise the passion of Christ we know is sufficient and effectuall to take awaie all paine because Gods iustice is throughlie satisfied by him You graunt it sufficient and denie it to be effectuall because Gods iustice requireth temporal paine of the partie that offended as well as satisfaction for the sinne ' and eternall paine thereby deserued which hereticall assertion cannot stand with anie pardon or satisfaction by an other how soeuer you goe about the bush in words and shewe of setting forth Gods mercie to reconcile them Neither doth inioyning of ponance by the auncient Church nor Gods owne temporall scourges in this life prooue anie necessitie of suffering for satisfaction of Gods iustice vnsatisfied by the passion of Christ. The temporall scourges after this life you must first prooue that there be such before you can conclude any thing by such Neither hath God a thousand waies to seeke to satisfie him-selfe with his sonnes paines but the onelie mediation and propitiation of his sonne is the waie to satissie his iustice sor sin Neither requireth he the trauell of any man other then the externall ministerie of the Church to applie the paines of his sonne vnto the benefit of sinners which ministerie consisteth in preaching his worde deliuerie of his sacraments and exercising of discipline not in meriting and making satisfaction for sin or in deseruing that Christ satisfaction should be auaileable to take awaie sinne or any paine due sor the same That God hath often giuen mercie and grace at Moses and Aarons request it prooueth not his iustice to be satisfied by Moses or Aarons workes but onelie by Christ in whome all praiers of the saints are effectual or to obtaine mercie either for them selues or for others And when he stirreth vp the iust to stand betwixt him and the people when he should punish he setteth not mans iustice or merites betweene his iustice and the offenders but prouoketh them to seeke mercie and forgiuenes for Iesus Christes sake the onelie Mediator of God and man And that is the meaning of Chrysostome whose wordes you cite and translate at your pleasure but thus they are hom de penit confess Mansuetum habemus dominum solùm occasionem arripere vult mox omnem praese fert misericordiam Nam ne peccantes inulti manentes nos efficeremur deteriores non remisit nobis supplicium sed vidit hoc manifestè quòd peccatis ipsis non minus damnosum sit non puniri propter hoc imponit poenam non exigens supplicium de peccatis sed ad futura nos corrigent Et vt discas quod hoc sit verum audi quid dicatad Mosem dimite me iratus delebeos dimitte me non quod Moseseum retinuerit neque enim loquutus erat ad eum sed silenter astabat sua pro illis oratione non autem supplicacionem ei dare vo lebat quonamilli digna suppliciis comiserant suppliciisque ineuitabilibus punire autem volebat sed miserecorditer quod eos segniores reddebat Viraque autem fecit vs paenam non inferres neque illos faceret ignauiores paena non irrogata Discebant n. quod non sue merito sed Mosis patrocinio iram dominicam effugerint We hau a gentle Lord he onelie wil take an occasion and streight he sheweth forth al mercie For lest we sinning and abiding vnpunisbed should be made worscr he hath not remitted the punishment vnto vs but this he saw manifestlie that it is no lesse hurtful then the sinnes themselues not to be punished for this cause he layeth on vs a paine not exacting punishment for sinnes but correcting vs for the time to come And that thou maiest learne that this is true heare what he saith to Moses Let me alone and in mine anger I will destroie them Let me alone saith he not that Moses did holde him for he had not spoken vnto him But stoode with silence in his praier for them But he would giue him no supplication because they had committed things worthie of punishment and of punishmēt vnauoydeable He meaned to punish but mercifully which made thē more slouthful But these two things he did both that he should not lay punishmēt on them nor make thē more slouth ful because punishmēt was not taken For they learned that not by their own merit but by patronage of Moses they escaped the Lords anger These words of S. Chrysostom do manifestlie declare that the temporall punishment that God laieth vpon his people are not satisfactions of his iustice but corrections of his mercie The patronage of Moses in this place signifieth not the merits of Moses but his praiers and intreatie made for them which are heard for Christes sake and not for the worthines of him that praieth For no man hath accesse to God but onelie in the worthines and merits of Iesus Christ in whome God hath set forth his wonderfull glorie of mercie iustice to the eternall saluation of all his saints which loue his testimonies and vnto whom al his waies are mertie and truth as the Prophet saith Psal. 25. 10. ALLEN And it fareth with our Lord God as it doth with a wise and discreete master towards his seruants or with a father towards his louing children for they will often shew themselues to be rigorous bent to chastice the faults of their seruaunts children and yet themselues of their owne accord will often procure some other to hinder their intended punishments and to take from them as it were by force their children or other offenders euen so standeth it betweene God the children of his chosen Church who though he often iustly shew himselfe angrie and bent to correction neuer the lesse he doth not onelie mercifully remit but procureth him selfe other either patrons or intercessours for whose sakes he maie iustlie by good reason remit After manie threatninges of the citie and people of
after his wordes set dowen in the section last before in which he speaketh neither of the deserts of the liuing nor of the deade able to answere his iustice for other but altogether of the mercie of god which taketh occasion euen of his loue which he beareth towards his Saints that are departed to shew compassion vpon them that are aliue this for his couenants sake although Chrysostome seemeth to speake of the intercession of them that are departed which yet prooueth no merit or satisfaction For to become an humble suter for a benefit or a pardon is not to deserue a benefit or to satisfie for an offenders trespace And this benefit he giueth saieth Saint Cyrill vpon this text vnto the memorie of holie men that sometime he forgetteth the euills which their posteritie haue committed To the like effect speaketh Saint Hierome that which God giueth of his mercie is no merit or satisfaction to his iustice ALLEN And suerlie if in the daies of olde where neither so much grace nor mercie was to be found nor Christ which is the fountaine of all pardon was not yet offered vp to paie the debtes of his brethren sinnes nor the communion of Saint was yet so fullie established whereby the merits of one might redound to an other nor the Church so honoured with the gift of Gods spirite for remission of mans offences nor the priesthood of God so credited with the keies of the kingdome if afore all these things were no otherwise wrought but in base figurse such waies were found out and that by Gods owne procurement of mercie and grace in the midest of intoyned penance and punishment what neede we to doubt but their now be many meanes made in this happie societie of Saints so to remit the bond of satisfaction to some that Gods iustice maie be answered againe by other of this happie household in the aboundance of their holy workes which the Church holdeth moste holilie for to be a perfect and euerlasting treasure to satisfie Gods righteousnes and procure mercie to the needie which by loue zeale deuotion do deserue the same If God remitted of olde temporall paine vnto his people at the call of Moses and Aaron and for his childe Dauids sake that was dead what will not he mercifullie forgiue by our high priests procurements whose pardons and punishments Christ hath solemnlie promised he woulde ratifie and allowe in heauen aboue What will he not do in respect of the paines and aboundant passions of his own childe Iesus that hath yet in the Catholike Church his death so duely represented for the remission of our daily debts what can be denied to the intercession of so manie Saints to the chast combate of so manie Virgins to the bloodie fight of so manie Martyrs to the stout standing of so manie Confessours what mercie maie not the Church craue and doubtles obteine for anie of ber children either in penance ' in this world or in paine in the next that hath in her treasure such abundance of satisfaction first in our head Christ Iesus through whose gratious workes all other mens paines are become beneficiall either to themselues or their bretheren and then in the store of al holy saints trauilles not yet wasted in procuring mercie for others besides moe waies of grace and remission that our mother the Church hath in readines to relieue her children that doe continue in her happie lappe and in the societie of her communion with humble submission of themselues to the powers ordeined of Christ for the gouernment of their soules with request for this pardon at their handes to whome be giuen the bestowing and disposing of the inestimable treasure of so blessed a ministerie FVLKE The grace and mercie of God in Iesus Christ was as largelie to be found for the saluation of his people in the daies of olde as in these daies Iesus Christ was yesterdaie and to daie is the same and for euermore And the Lambe was slaine from the beginning of the worlde as touching the effect of his death vnto all Gods elect and the communion of the Saints was as fullie established to the receiuing of al vertue of life from Christ their heade and to the mutuall seruice of loue and ministring of gods gifts one to another but not to merite at all either for themselues or for other Such meriting is dishonorable to the heade from whome euerie member receaueth life and all power and offices thereof ac cording to the measure of euerie member to the encrease and building vp of the wholl bodie in loue The Church of olde had also the ministerie of remission of sinnes and the keies of the kingdome of heauen and that not in base figures onelie but insufficient effect to the euerlasting saluation of Gods people And therefore to saie that all these things were none otherwise wrought but in base figures is to denie the saluation of all the fathers that died before the incarnation of Christ. For base figures could haue but base effectes base figures could not worke eternall life The ministerie figures of the law separated from Christ are in deede the weake and beg gerlie elements of the worlde but beeing referred to Christ and made effectuall by his death through faith in the partakers they are of the same power and riches vnto euerlasting saluation that the ministerie and sacraments of the new Testament But admit that nothing was wrought to them but in base figures yet it followeth not that after the incarnation and actuall death of Christ there should be any more meanes to remit the bond of satisfaction by answering Gods iustice then in that onelie sacrifice obedience and suffring of Christ or that the Church should haue such a store house of mans merites to satisfie Gods righteousnes or that men by loue zeale and deuotion may deserue Gods mercie these popish positions can neuer be prooued Againe whatsoeuer God remitted at the praier of Moses and Aaron and for his couenant made with Dauid or whatsoeuer he gaue to the memorie of that holie man he remitted and gaue for Iesus Christs sake in whome onelie his iustice was satisfied and he well pleased But your high priest with his Antichristian pardons and punishments which are grounded vpon the merites of men or coloured with the merites of Christ which yet are rent and rorne from the effect of his death Christ will destroy with the breath of his mouth and abolish with his glorious appearing For the death and passion of his sonne Iesus Christ God wil be merciful to his seruants that by faith take holde of the power of his death but neither by masses nor pardons doth he bestow the vertue thereof The good workes and sufferings of the saintes be examples of vertue and patience not merits or gifts of righteousnes The death of Christ answering Gods iustice and reconciling vs to his fauour hath made that good workes of his saintes which are the giftes of his grace though vnperfect as they proceede from vs vnpure and vnworthie vessells yet neuerthelesse to be acceptable before God vnto rewarde which he giueth of meere mercie and
in stead of which word properlie you craftelie conueigh in the worde truelie so your wholl syllogisme is a paralogisme and may lawfully be denied Notwithstanding your conclusion as it is we do graunt that the Apostles do rightlie and truely remit sinnes by their ministery in the holie ghost but as it should be inferred vpon your premises we denie it which cannot be gathered but vpon a false Maior Whatsoeuer the holie ghost may doe properlie in remitting sinnes the Apostles may do by ministerie as properlie As for the comfort of mans life taken away by denying sinnes to be properlie forgiuen by Priestes is a fond cauill and meere slaunder For we acknowledge it a singular comfort of mans life that God hath appointed men by their ministerie to assure vs of his fauour and reconciliation in the remission of oursins And we beleeue with Saint Augustine that sinnes are forgiuen in Gods Church vpon earth acknowledgeing the bountefullnes of God in so mightie a worke anathematizing and detesting the Nouatians and all other heretikes that obstinatelie and willfullie mainteine the contrarie The power to remit sinnes is further prooued to be giuen to the Apostles by these wordes of Christ Whose sinnes you do forgiue c. by the Doctors exposition of the same and by conference of other wordes of scripture of the like sense THE FOVRTH CHAP. ALLEN HOw the priestes of Christes Church haue defended this right and calling for remission of sinnes as wel by the commission that Christ first receiued of his father and afterward bestowed vpon them as by the assured receiuing of the spi rit of god from Christes blessed breath to the same and purpose I haue hitherto declared at large Now the third part of the place before alledged out of S. Iohns gospel concerneth the words of Christes promis and warrant made vnto his Apostles out of which wordes distinctly vttered we must see what force may be further added vnto our Catholike assertion for the pristes autho rity to remit and retaine sinnes And surely if none of the former wordes of commission nor any other mean or mention had beene made of the holy ghostes assistaunce herein these onlie woordes vpon the credit that faithful men owe to Christ had bin sufficient to haue assured the world of the authoritie of priesthood of the wholl cause that now is called in controuersie For what can be said either of god or man more properlie or more playnlie then this whose sinnes you shal forgiue they be forgiuen whose sinnes you shal retaine they be retained I must needes heree complaine of these vnfaithful and vnhappie times that in the continuall lothsome bragges of the scripture and Gods word in perpetuall tossing and tumbling of the booke of the Bible in endlesse contention and disputation of most high mysteries in them contained haue wholie conuerted the cleerest and onely vndoubted meaning of such places specially as moste touch the verie life and saluation of all mankinde and which be of all other thinges in termes of scripture most open and euident sull foolishlie and vnlearnedlie haue both the simple sort handled Gods word as in such grosse ignorance of al thinges they needes must and their new procured Masters also in not much more knowledge and farre passing pride can not otherwise do but whilest they plaie them selues in things of smaler importance they are to be laughed at rather then lamented but if the deuil driue them farther as he lightlie doth wherere he se quietlie possesseth and cause them to dallie and delude the places of scripture that principally concerne the state and saluation of vs al then we must with al force resist lest we leese the fruite and good of our Christianitie What can be of higher importance in the world or touch our soules and saluation so neere as the holie sacraments of Christ Church by which grace and mercy through gods appointment be procured yet these blessed fountains especiallie euen these waters springing euerlastingly to our life and comfort haue these men most infected FVLKE You fare as though we denied all power of remitting or retaining of sinnes whereas we do moste gladlie imbrace all such power as Christ hath giuen vs which we must so take as it be not dishonourable to the godhead that man should exercise that which is proper to God him-selfe The power therefore we graunt but what manner of power this is we must inquire whether an absolute power for priests at their pleasure as you speake afterward in this Chapter to forgiue sinnes properlie or a power to declare the same to be forgiuen according to the pleasure of God to them that repent and beleeue the Gospell and also whether this power is to be exercised by preaching the Ghospel or by auricular confession You spend manie words therefore in vaine to prooue the power and authoritie whereof we stand in no controuersie with you but what manner of power this is and by what meanes it is to be exercised As for the lothsome bragges of the scripture and Gods word in perpetuall tossing and tumbling of the bookes of the Bible doe argue that you complaine of sauoreth not of the spirit of Christ which willeth the scriptures to be searched as those which beare witnes of him To glory in the truth of Gods word contained in his holie scriptures is no vaine bragging but such as Christians ought moste of all to delight in The rest of your railing I passe ouer as vnworthie anie answere when whatsoeuer you prate in generall shal be founde false in speciall when you come to prooue the particulers ALLEN In the institution of Sacraments Christs wordes were euer plaine without colour or figure as wordes that worke with singular efficacie grace and vertue and therewith giue to the ministers iust authoritie for the execution of Christes meaning which could not be done in figuratiue speaches and parables without infinit error Did God speake parables when he instituted the solemnitie of so manie sacrifices in the olde lawe when he signified vnto Moses and Aaron euerie seuerall sorte of beast or creature with their sexe kind all the ceremonie thereunto belonging Did he speake parables when the sacrament of the lambe was to be instituted Did he speake by figure to Abraham when he commaunded him to circumcise the male of euerie of his people Did he speake by figure when he instituted the Sabbath Did he to be breefe euer in the olde lawe speake one thing and meane another when anie externall worke by the charge of his worde was to be practized for euer amongest the people In common speach in prophecying in preaching in similitudes in examples vttered for the declaration of manie thinges and for grace and varietie of talke to stirre vp mans industrie in searching the secretes of the trueth there figures of all sortes be vsed but where by externall wordes and actions force of inward grace must be procured or perpetuall vsages in the Church are
tyrannical while you inforce men to confesse their secret sinnes to a popish Priest where of there is no commaundement in the holie scriptures and partlie it is an encouragement vnto securitie a pampering in sinne while the fraile and foolish man is persuaded that by the heard confession absolution receiued of the Priest he is cleerelie discharged of his sinnes and may be toti es quoties with a litle pretie penance enioyned him for satisfaction But it is a firme principle you saie that in all formes of penance the penitent had remission of his sinnes for which he did penance no otherwise but by the ministerie of the Priestes A heauie case where the Priestes were straight laced and would retaine sinnes where God was readie to forgiue What is this els but to restraine the mercie of God to the ministerie of vnskilfull men At what howre so euer the sinner doth truelie repent the Lord remitteth his sinnes But man can not allwaies see or by outward tokens iudge of true and inward repentance Therefore it is a firme principle that God often times forgaue sinnes to the penitent otherwise then by the ministerie of the Prieste Men maie erre in exercising outward discipline but Gods remission is not staied vpon mans error Where you conclude that as the diuerse vse of baptisme hindreth not but that in substance it is the same so the sacrament of penance notwithstanding the diuers formes and manners in which it hath or is now vsed Your comparison is nought For baptisme is a sacrament of Christes institution your popish penance can neuer be prooued to be a sacrament Therfore your argument à paribus is of no force Whether the Church did well to restraine baptisme to certaine solemne feastes I will not here dispute That remission of sinnes hath beene ioyned often both in the law of nature and Moses to some externall ceremonies and sacrifices whereof in the olde law Priestes were appointed ministers THE NINTH CHAP. LEt no man vpon consideration of these thinges either reprehend or maruatle at the counsel and ordinance of god that he being hable to gouerne his creatures and amend or correct pardon or punish euerie mans misdeedes by him-selfe without all helpe and seruice of anie other his subiect natures that it pleaseth his wisdome for all that to forgiue sinnes no otherwise in his Church but by externall orders ioyned to mans ministerie in sundrie sacramentes In sober consideration of these thinges mans reason maie well be satisfied if he can conceiue that it is the honour and estimation of our kinde with almightie God our maker that he gouerneth not our affaires onelie by him selfe in his owne person but also that we be ruled and led in the waies of Gods will by one an other that the maiestie of God which most appeareth in regiment and in remitting of sinnes in correcting of 〈◊〉 and iudgement might be cleerelie seene in our kinde amongst our selues to our comfort and Gods no disgracing nor dishonour at all And therefore Saint Augustine saith of the like doubt of some in his daies which would not be taught by man but by Gods owne spirit Abiecta esset humana conditio si per homines hominibus verbum suum Deus ministrare nolle videretur Quomodo enim verum esset quod dictum est Templum enim Dei sanctum est quod estis vos si de humano templo Deus responsa non redderet Mans state were too base if God would not that his word should be ministred by one man to another For how should this truelie be spoken the temple of God is holie the which temple you are if God gaue not answers by mans temple This is one great respect surelie especialle since the second person in Trinitie tooke vpon him our nature by whome the woorthines of mankinde is much increased and more fit then euer before to serue ech other as in the workes that be diuine and properlie by nature belonging to God himselfe An other respect why we should by externall sacraments and mans ministerie receiue grace and remission of sinnes is the singular respect had by God of our infirmitie as well of minde as bodie For the minde requireth in her assured deseruing of damnation some externall token by which she maie haue good cause to hope of mercie and grace For where I know and assure myselfe that originall sinne is remitted by baptisme when I haue once receiued the same then I am in no further doubt of my selfe nor anie damnation for that sinne which by the promis of God I haue learned shall be washed awaie thereby as by an externall instrument in which he conueigheth that benefit to my soule if my soule by indisposition and unaptnes do not hinder the assured fruit thereof So where after Baptisme mans life is often defiled by greeuons sinnes and God highlie displeased therefore what an infinite treaskre it is and how great a comfort to haue an assured helpe therof wrought so by mans ministery in a visible action that I maie know sauing for mine owne lack of connenient disposition my sinnes to be forgiuen and Gods mercie and fauour to be obteined againe We maie conceiue easily what a passing comfort it was to the parties that heard sensiblie by the outward wordes of Christes owne mouth thy sinnes be forgiuen thee The said persons beleeuing in Christ and lamenting for their sinnes past might haue had some hope of remission by Christ though he had said no such thing vnto them yet he that perceiueth not what comfort of conscience what inward ioy of minde what reioysing of the spirit they must needes haue that had Christes testimonie and blessing in plaine termes for the same purpose he seeth nothing at all FVLKE That God hath vsed in all ages to testifie and assure men of his grace and mercie to the forgiuenes of their sinnes by outward signes and sacraments and that for diuerse good causes we are allwaies readie to acknowledge But that it pleaseth his wisdome as you saie to forgiue sinnes no otherwise in his Church but by externall orders ioyned to mans ministery in sundry sacraments we do vtterlie denie For that were to tie the grace of God to the outward sacraments which is most free to worke either with them or without them The penitent publicane an example of persons that seeke iustification had his sinnes forgiuen him by the onelie grace and mercie of God taken holde of by faith without al external orders ioyned to mans ministerie in any sacrament For if we acknowledge our sins he is faithfull and iust to forgiue vs our sinnes and to clense vs from all vnrighteousnes And Iesus Christ is our aduocate with the father to obtaine remission of sinnes And if anie man shal see his brother sinne a sinne not to death he shall ask he will giue life vnto him that sinneth not vnto death By all which testimonies and an hundreth more that are euery where to
pardons are ordeined to auaile and except them that lacke merit sacramentall which are saued immediatelie by the grace of God which is not bound vnto the sacraments But it were no reason you saie that priuate persons should communicate and send to the soules in purgatorie there fasts almes and praier for the release of their paine he that represents Christs person should not applie some part of the common treasure for their deliuery c. I answere wee acknowledge no such communication sending or lending by priuate persons for any such purpose or to any such effect into Purgatorie But if that were graunted yet were it no reason that the Pope where he hath no authoritie should by any colour doe more then a priuate man of the same worthines or merit And when the Pope is a wicked man of life as you will not denie but many haue beene what should his sute or suffrage preuaile whereas if he were twise as great in office as you faine him to be yet where his office extendeth not he should by sute preuaile no more then priuate men of such behauiour That this pardon per modum suffragij is agreeable to the practize of the Church and forme of pardons alwaies vsed you saie without proofe but I haue prooued the contrarie before That you require in the partie to be benefited by this new kinde of pardons not onelie that he departed hence in grace and zeale of the Church but also frendship in the worlde of such as will be contended to accomplish the appointed worke of the pardon you declare that the Popes pardons goe not as Gods pardons without respect of persons but with a necessarie respect of worldlie frendshippe so that the soules of poore men such as lacke frendship in this world are in nothing so good a case as the soules of rich men that with their pens are able to purchase frendship enough in the world So that with you the poore whome Christ pronounceth happie are most miserable the rich euen they to whome Christ maketh the entrance of heauen impossible may haue soonest dispatch out of purgatorie for the old prouerbe was alwaies true in the Popish Church no pennie no paternoster No frendshippe in the worlde no helpe of the Popes pardons for poore mens soules for whome yet the redemption of Christ is as plentifull and effectuall as for the scules of rich men Whatsoeuer the Deuill or the Pope hath imagined to deface the glorie thereof and to make the frendship of the world which is enmity with God to be necessarie for the applying of his moste free grace generall pardon and vndeserued reconciliation A declaration of the Churches meaning touching the common treasure which is saide to remaine in her store for the recompense of such iniovned penance as she releaseth by her pardons with the conclusion of the wholl matter THE 12. CHAP. ALLEN BVt now if you aske me here how it standeth with the iustice of God thus to forgiue the paine and debt of satisfaction which either God or the Church inioyneth for the recompence of the former sinnes especiallie seeing the Catholike Church doth holde that it perteineth to Gods iustice no lesse to punish sinnes with some temporall scourge after it be forgiuen then it doth perteine to his mercy to forgiue the saide sinne and the debt of euerlasting damnation Now if it stand not with his iustice to let a sinner escape whollie without correction or satisfaction then it may much more appeere to be against his iustice also that any power of man should remit release that bonde of satisfaction which Gods instice required and was to the offender inioyned For the answere and perfect vnderstanding of this doubt it is to be knowne and well weighed that in deede no release could be had of such inioyned penance or deserued paine for sinnes past if Gods instice were not otherwise recompensed and the lacke of the parties punishment supplied againe by the abundance of satisfaction made by Christ vpon the Crosse eueric drop of whose innocent bloode and stroke laid vpon his blessed bodie were hable of the infinite inestimable worth and force thereof to satisfie for all debt due to all the sin in the worlde whether it be death and euerlasting damnation or tempor all paine and purgation By which abundant price of his passion and copious ransome the Church for whose sake this precious price was paied doth not onelie holde her selfe to be redeemed from death and damnation and so saued by Christ her head for he is the sauiour of his bodie saith Saint Paull but shee holdeth the ouerplus as a man wouldsaie of so abundant copious and infinite redemption to be a treasure in the house of God to relieue her childrens lackes to release their paines to worke with them in satisfying for their sin and to worke mercie for them also for lack of satisfying for their offences that want being founde in our penance towardes the recompensing of our euill life paste may be supplied by the treasure of Christsdeath that remaineth yet of full force and strength to be applied vnto vs in such our necessities as shal be thought meet vnto Christs Vicar generall in earth other his holie appointed ministers with whome as Saint Paul saith he left the bestowing of gods mysteries For although the holie and precious treasure of Christes paine and satisfaction be of it selfe sufficient to relieue the lackes of all men without exception not onely of those which shall be saued but also for the damned and for the wholl worlde saith Saint Iohn yet no man may be so hardie to claime the benefit thereof otherwise then through such meanes as he hath appointed and by the ministery of such men as he hath placed ouer his householde and familie to giue the Children meat and sustenance in due season not as they shall inordinatlie craue it but as he shall discreetlie finde to be meere for them Therefore where this wise stewarde of Christs holie householde to whome he gaue the kcies of the treasure and sufficient authoritie to fceae and gouerne his wholl flocke where he shall orderlie iudge the offender meete and of good congruitie worthie of grace and mercie there he may pardon and recompense the residue that can not be fulfilled of the partie penitent with some peece of that inestimable treasure of Christs redemption which remaineth in the Church impossible to be wasted and so shall remaine to the vnspeakeable benefit of the faithfull FVLKE This dreame of the Churches treasure the power of dispensing of the same resting infinitlie in the Pope in comparision of a few small crummes left vnto the Bishoppes should haue beene first handled as the foundation of popish pardon if the compasse of your cause and the method of deceit could haue abidden it which if it had beene done manie a one that had seene the foundation to be no surer would neuer haue taken paines to vew the rest of the
the Church the glosse thinketh that it should be in vaine if it should serue vs to no purpose as though if any such thing were might stand with Gods iustice it might not serue to set forth the glorie and riches of Christes incarnation Ad hereunto that the ouerplus were needeles for vs if the value of one drop be sufficiēt for the perfect redemption of the whol world it might also be sufficient to take away all temporall paine But if we should further admit that there were such a treasure of the Church who made the Pope generall stewarde of it and other Bishops to haue so small a portion of so infinite a treasure You answere that Saint Paull saith that Christ left to his Vicar generall and other his holie appointed ministers the beslowing of Gods mysteries But Saint Paull speaketh of no Vicar generall but of all Gods ministers which be not onelie bishops I trow that they be stewardes of his mysteries which mysteries are his holie word and sacraments or if this treasure were parte of them the dispensation of it perteineth to priests as well as vnto Bishoppes To proceede this treasure beeing so plentifull as you saie no man notwithstanding may claime the benefit of it otherwise then through such meanes as God hath appointed and by the ministrie of the man that he hath appointed But neither this treasure nor the meanes nor the man are appointed of God as farre as we can learne out of his written worde neither is the Pope any such steward to whome Christ would commit the keies of so inestimable a treasure which considereth not the worthines of the person but of the price which he receiueth for his pardons as the greatest practize of them hath beene euer since they were inuented Againe if the offendour be meete and of good congruitie worthie of grace and mercie what neede any peece of his treasure to be laide out aboute him for Gods iustice is as much bounde vnto congruitie as vnto condignitie Neither can he deny pardon to any that in any respect is worthie to receiue it sauing that grace is no grace where their is the worthines of the partie to deserue it but the rewarde is accounted according to debt and not according to grace ALLEN And such a perfect knot there is now since Christes incarnation of euerie member in Christes mysticall bodie which is the Church and companie of faithfull with him beeing the heade of the said bodie that his merites workes suffering and satisfaction maie well be applied to serue and supplie all wantes of ech member thereof yea more then that the holie suffering and tribulation of holie Saintes as of our blessed Ladie Christes mother and the holie Apostles with numbers of constant Martirs Confessours and Virgines helpe to supplie our lack also and encrease the huge treasure of the Church for the satisfying for our sinnes which yet notwithstanding as they were meritorious to the sufferers be fullie rewarded by the glorie of Christes kingdome and eternall felicitie which farre exceedeth not onelie the merites of all Saintes but sufficientlie rewardeth the incomparable humilitie and obedience of Christ to his father in suffering death vpon the crosse though his workes as they be satisfactorie for vs are not yet answered in vs nor can not be till the worldes end ALLEN That knot of communication of the benefites of Christes death was as effectuall before his incarnation as since although it became effectual by meanes of his incarnation euen as the effect of his death extended to the saluation of his elect before his death But you doe well to follow your author at the harde heeles the writer of that glauering glosse vpon Pope Bonefacius Bull which immediately aster the words by me last cited addeth Nam propter vnionem capitis membrorum meritum capitis attribuitur membris quia sic per alienum meritun non per proprium meritum liberantur à poena ideo quantum ad ipsos talis liberalior dicitur remissio seu indulgentia licet quoad Christum qui hoc nobis meruit vocetur redemptio copiosa For because of the vnion of the heade and the members the merit of the head is attributed and applied vnto the members and because they are so deliuered from paine by the merit of an other and not by their owne merit therefore in respect of themselues such deliuerance is called a remission or pardon although in respect of Christ which deserued this for vs it is called a plentifull redemption We know that by meanes of the vnion of the head vnto the members the redemption wrought by the head perteineth to the members but the application thereof is by the spirit of God and not by the Popes pardon or any ministrie of man in speaking properlie which extendeth no further then the outwarde senses in speaking the worde of God to the hearing in washing with water or deliuering the bodelie foode in signe of baptizing with the holie ghost and feeding with the bodie and blood of Christ. But more than that you saie the holie suffrings and tribulation of Saints doe helpe to supplie our lacke and increase the huge treasure of the Church Your wordes found as though your meaning were that the suffring of Saints doth more supplie our lacke then the infinite treasure of the passion of Christ. But that I may not take you at the worst you meane at the lest that they ad vnto it you say plainly they increase the treasure of the Church But you forget the infinite valure of Christes bloodwhich you spake of before which can no more receiue any increase then it can be diminished for there is no proportion of that which is infinite tò that which is finit But if the treasure of the Church which is infinite by Christs merit may be made greater by the merit of Saints which are finit then the quantitie thereof must be greater by so much or so manie partes as are added and so there shall be proportion of finit to infinite or ells the treasure of Christs merit shall not be infinite This grosse and impossible absurditie therefore came in after the first deuise of the Churches infinite treasure by Christs merit For Clemens the fixt which brought the Iubelie yeare from euerie hundred to euery 50. as he learned of Aug. de Ancona that liued in this time ioyneth in his bull the merits of all Saints to increase the infinite treasure of Christs merits Of what value the merits of Saints be we shall heare in the next section ALLEN And for Christ in this case our aduersaries perchance would not much sticke with vs but for the remaine of Saints satisfaction they can not abide And if Saint Paull in expresse words did not vtter this my meaning concerning the trauaile of holie Saints for Christes bodie which is his Church the litle kolie ones of these daies would haue spurned at these kinde of speaches for feare of doeing iniurie to Christ of
Ierusalem he thus mooueth himselfe to mercie Circuite vias Ierusalem a spicite considerate quaerite in plateis eius an inuenias virum facientem iudicium quaerentem fidem propitius ero ei Looke round about the citie and veiw the streets thereof and haue good consideration whether anie one maie be found there that doth instice and studeth after faithfullnes and I will haue mercie on the Citie In the fift of Ieremie Where you maie perceiue that God wil forgiue all for ones desertes and that the good workes of one maie by Gods iustice supplie the lacke of manie other not yet to deliuer anie man from euerlasting damnation that is impenitent and therefore in case and state of eternall death For the worke of the faithfull can not extend to do good to such as be for euer separated from their fellowship and therfore can be no members of the common bodie in the firme knot whereof onelie their is mutuall health and healpe among such as partlie lacke and partly do abound for release of the rodde of temporall correction that is often laied vpon the children and not of anie eternall punishment that onelie happeth to such as be separated and cut of effectuallie from Christes bodie which is the Church for euer FVLKE You continue still in Chrysostomes argument but you follow neither his wordes nor his meaning for he speaketh neither of meriting nor satisfying For his wordes are these immediatlie following that which I haue last rehearsed Haec nos Saepe facimus famulos qui peccauerunt dignos suppliciis nolentes punire neque à supplicij metu liberari anico iubemus vt illos è nostris eripiant manibiatque vt ita timor illorum in eis crescat nostra effugiant verbera Hoc Deus fecit Et quòd hoc sit verīs ex ipsis verb is manifestum est Dimitte me inquit irascar Etenim nullus remittit qui punire vult tuncenim irascimur Ipse autem dicit dimitte me irascar vt scias quodirain Deo non sit affectio sed pana in nos eo vocabulo nominetur Quando igitur audis Mosem dicentem siquidem dimittis pecceatum dimitte prae seruo Dominum obstupesee quod ipse fibi ipsi miserecordiae occasionem quaerit Non hîc autem solum hoc fecit sed ad Ieremiam ad Ezechielem idem hoc dicit circuite videte in viis Hierusalem num sit qui faciat iudicium insticiam miserieors ero cis Vidisti misericordiam Multietiam impij vnius virture simul fruuntur Multorum autem malitia quamuis vnus sit qui rectè agat in medio magni populi non 〈◊〉 Sed vnes quidem homo rectè viuens populum integrumeri pere potest ab ira Dei. Ciuitas autem integra per nersaque in suam poenam supplicium attrahere bene viuentem dietecre non potest Et hoc de Noe manifestum Pereuntibus enim omnibus solus seruatus est Et de Mose clarum est Solus enim potuit tanto populo impetrare veniam This doe we also oftentimes and being nether willing to punish our seruants worthie of punishment which haue offended nor to deliuer them from the feare of punishmēt we bid our friends that they should deliuer them out of our handes and that so their feare maie increafe in them and they maie auoide our stripes This did god also that this is true it is manifest out of the verie wordes Let me alone saith he and I will be angrie for no man relenteth that will punish for then we are angrie But he saith let me alone and I will be angrie that thou maiest know that anger in God is no affection but punishment toward vs is named by that terme Therefore when thou hearest Moses saying If thou doest forgiue this sin forgiue it wonder at the Lord in comparison of the seruant that he him selfe seeketh vnto him selfe occasions of mercie Neither did he this thing here onelie but also vnto Ieremie and Ezechtel he saith the same thing go round about and see in the waies of Ierusalem whether there be anie that doth iudgement and iustice and I will be mercifull vnto them Hast thou seene his mercie manie also vngodlie persons enioy the vertue of one man together And by the malice of manie although there be but one that doth well in the middest of a great people he doth not fall But one man truelie liuing well maie deliuer a whole people from the wrath of God but a wholl communaltie that is peruerse cannot draw into their paine and punishment him that liueth well nor cast him downe And this is manifest of Noe for when all perished he alone was preserued And of Moses it is cleere For he alone was able to obteine pardon for so great a people In all these wordes here is no mention or meaning of merit or satisfaction but onelie of mercie as appeereth in the example of men requiring their friendes to deliuer their seruants from punishment where not the worthines of the friendes can be the cause but the mercie of the Master Againe he speaketh of the auoiding of temporall plagues in this life whereof euen the vngodlie and they that perteine not to the communion of Saints often times are partakers which proceedeth of the loue of God towards his children and not of their merite which you confesse can not extend to them that be for euer separated from their fellowship ALLEN Neither doe the desertes onelie of the liuing helpe the necessitie of their fellow members being yet aliue but such as bedead also doe communicate in their workes with their brethren yet abiding in this world And God of his singular mercy is often contented to be answered by them for their poore fellow seruants that be indebted so far in the Church that they be not hable in their owne persons to dscharge their owne debt nor come out of the same whereof the said Saint Chrysostome doth excellentlie well consider in these wordes of his sermon de poenitentia mihi autem saieth he aliud maius est diuinae misericordiae iudicium quod dicam Cum enim non inuenis homines viuos fiducia praeditos qui possint intercedendo veniam obtinere confugit ad defunctos per illos inquit se remissurum peccata Ezechiae enim dicit protegam ciuitatem hanc propter me propter Dauid puerum meum Olim enim mortuus erat Dauid That is to saie I haue yet a plainer and greater token of Gods mercie which I will shew you For when he findeth none aliue that be of confidence which might by intercession procure pardon he turneth to the departed and saieth he will remit sins for their sakes For he spake to Ezechias thus I will defend this citie for my owne sake and my child Dauids sake and yet Dauid was dead long afore FVLKE This place of Chrysostome followeth immediately
which is but a short section or Chap er doth not charge Luther with this opinion of heretikes not to be burned but the Donatists whose fansie is renewed againe in the Anabaptists and Libertines As for Luther Contra Latomum deincendiariis handleth not this controuersie at all but onelie expostulateth with the deuines of Louane which burned his bookes without examination or Conuiction of them out of the word of God Manie men haue complained and that moste iustlie of the crueltie of the Papists in burning as heretikes the true saints martyrs and members of the Church whose faith and religion they were neuer hable to conuince of heresie by the authoritie of gods word But that no blasphemer or obstinate heretike maintaining blasphemie against the expresse and manifest trueth of God is to be punished by death I am persuaded he can bring no booke or author of any accompt that so holdeth Fourthlie he addeth that Luther by onelie scripture found the sacramentaries to be heretikes D. Fulk by the same scripture findeth that both parties are good Catholikes But as Luther erred in his opinion of the sacrament so he was ouer rash in condemning those whome he calleth sacramentaries neuerthelesse seing he erred of ignorance and inconsiderate zeale he hath found mercie with God and is not to be adiudged as a blasphemous heretike For neither the error he maintained is blasphemie in it selfe neither did he hold it contrarie to his knowledge but as he was ignorantlie persuaded with zeale of trueth though deceiued with error How Doctor Fulke prooueth this not onelie by scripture but also by example of auncient fathers erring in like cases and yet not to be condemned for heretikes you maie reade in the place by this answerer quoted and in his confutation of Popish quarrels His last example is of manie things which Master Whitgift doth defend against Thomas Cartwright to be lawfull by scripture as Bishops Dcanes Archdeacons officialls holy daies and an hundreth more which in Geneua are holden to be flat conirarie to the scripture There are manie things lawfull by scripture which yet are not necessarie to be vsed The forme of external gouernment and discipline of the Church is not so expreslie set downe in holie scriptures but that euetie particulare Church hath libertie and must of necessitie appoint manie things for order decencie and gouernment which are not in expresse termes conteined in the scriptures euen as god shall giue them grace to see what is moste expedient according to the difference of times places and persons for the building vp of the Church in trueth and loue Wherefore although the Church of Geneua in the forme of outward regiment rites and discipline differing from the Church of England do not vse the same things that we do yet it followeth not that they holde them to be flat contrarie to the scripture neither is our answerer hable soundlie to prooue that he doth so boldlie asseuere To proceede he telleth vs what aduantage herctikes haue by onelie scripture they make them-selues therebie iudges of Doctors Councels histories presidentes cusiomes prescriptions yea of the bookes of scripture sense it selfe reseruing al interpretation to them-selues But this is nothing so for howsoeuerheretikes take vppon them to control al things according to their fantasie yet haue they noe aduantage by onelie scripture but therebie maie be are confounded when they come to examination tri all And as for the professors of the Gospell which acknowledge the scriprure to be sufficiente to teach all thinges needful to be knownevnto saluation although they are by god him selfe made Iudges of the spirits of al men by exacting them vnto the trial of the word of god which is the onelie certaine rule of truth yet doe they not by priuate authoritie iudge of Councells doctors fathers customs c. But by that charge which is laide vpon them to iudge cōdemne euen the Angels from heauen if they should bring anie other Gospell then that which the Apostles haue preached without al arrogancie or insolencie against the Angels Councels Doctors Fathers whatsoeuer but in giuing god the glorie to be onely true al men to be liers no Angel to be credited except they speake by the spirite of God of whose speach we haue no certaine demonstration but in the holie scriptures whatsoeuer is agreeable vnto them The discerning of the bookes of scripture of the true sense of them is also committed vnto the Church the faithful members thereof that doutful bookes be iudged by those that without doubt are indited by the holy ghost deliuered to the Church by faithfull witnesses instruments of the holy ghost to be of soueraigne and perpetual authority in the Church and so are knowne and taken of the true Church from time to time in such sorte that although the same truth maie be found in other bookes yet as Saint Augustine saith they are not of the same authoritie because there is not such certentie of trueth As for the sense and interpretation of the holie scriptures it must be taken out of the scriptures them-selues which are alwaies the best and surest interpretation of them-selues in all points necessarie to be knowne with the aide of the gift of tongues the gift of knowledge the gift of interpretation in them that haue labored in finding out the sense thereof according to the analogie of faith which is comprehended in the scriptures and that in places so plaine and euident as they neede no interpretation and therefore cannot be wrested by damnable heretikes without great impudencie and against their owne conscience for which cause Saint Paul willeth an heretike after the first second admonition to be auoided as one who though he will not acknowledge the truth yet he is condemned in his owne conscience and sinneth vnto eternall damnation Wherefore Councells Fathers Doctors customs examples are by vs admitted but not hand ouer head without distinction but such so farre forth as they be true and faithful interpreters of the scripture by matters and places plaine certenly knowne opening matters places obscure and vnknowne Which is the office of an expounder not to determine by his owne authority of anothers meaning whereof as among men euetie man is the best in terpreter of his owne so is the holy ghost of him-selfe in the scriptures by him inspired of whose meaning where they be hard to be vnderstood no man can be certaine but either by his own plaine wordes or by plaine necessary conclusion out of his plaine words Now touching the Papists whome our answerer saith to be restrained from chopping and changing affirming and denying at their pleasures because they binde them-selues to other things beside the scriptures to which they giue souereigne authoritie as to councells auncient fathers traditions of the Apostles and primatiue Church with the like the matter is farre otherwise For whatsoeuer they prate of the soueraigntie of
you both to wil and to be hable to do for his owne good pleasure whereupon we conclude that though a man is willed to worke his owne saluation by walking in that waie which god hath appointed for them that shal be saued yet he can doe nothing by his owne strength but all that he doth is of the grace of god for by grace you are saued through faith that not of your selues it is the gift of God To be short we make not the grace of God an helper onelie but a wholl doer and bringer to passe in vs of our saluation and of all thinges tending thereto For we are not apt of our selues as of our selues to thinke anie thing belonging thereto but our aptnes is of God Nor I saith Saint Paul but the grace of God which is with me Againe we haue infinit places of scripture to prooue that a man ought not to dout of his saluatiō in respect of the truth of Gods promises although we ought to feare trem ble at Gods iudgements and although we cannot be alwaies voide of feare in respect of our own weakenes Furthermore they haue expresselie doe ye the worthie fruites of penance Luc. 3. we haue no where that faith onelie is sufficient without all satisfaction and all other workes of penance on our partes The fruites worthie of repentance we acknowledge to be necessaire to declare vnfained repentance but not for satisfaction of Gods iustice which is blasphemous against the satisfaction of Christes death But that a faith which is fruitles or voide of the workes of repentance should be sufficient to saluation or Iustification we doe vtterlie deny as a thing contrary to the scriptures Yet againe they haue expresselie that euerie man shal be saued according to his workes Apo. 20. we haue no where that men shal be iudged onelie according to their faith We confesse as the text is that euerie man shal be iudged according to his workes and so perhaps he would haue saide if the corrector had done his part neither doe we affirme that men shal be iudged onelie according to their faith for triall of their faith shal be made by their workes Once againe they haue expresselie that there remaineth aretribution stipend and paie to euery good worke in heauen Marc. 9. 1. Cor. 3. Apoc. 22. Ps. 118. we haue as he saith no where that good workes done in Christ do merite nothing In the 3. text quoted out of the new testament is all one word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifieth a rewarde whether it be freelie giuen or deserued by laboure To him that worketh saith Saint Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rewarde is not accompted according to grace but according to debt But God is debter to no man Neither is there anie merit of good workes once named in the scriptures but against the merit of good workes Christ saith epxresselie when you haue done all thinges that are commaunded vnto you saie we are vnprofitable seruants and the paie wages stipend merite or desert of an vnprofitable seruant is shewed Matt. 25. 30. Cast out the vnprofitable seruant into vtter darkenesse there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth It is therfore the grace mercie and trueth of Gods promise whereby we claime rewarde and not the merites desert or debt of our good workes To that he saieth they haue expresselie praier and sacrifice for the dead in the second of the Maccaebees We answer that booke of Macabes to be no holie Scripture out of which he might haue expresselie a man commended for killing himselfe Whether Angels present good workes and almesdeedes before God and whether Saintes departed do praie for them that are aliue which he gathereth out of the Apocriphal bookes of Tobie and the Maccabes we make no question as of matters not reuealed in the canonicall scriptures But if they were graunted to be so yet it followeth not that men aliue must or may praie to Angels or Saintes departed Last of all out of the canonicall scripture he saieth they haue expresselie that the affliction which Daniell vsed vpon his bodie was acceptable in the sight of God Dan. 10. and we haue no where that such voluntarie corporall afflictions are in vaine But which of vs saith that such voluntarie corporall affliction as Daniell vsed and to such end as he did vse them are in vaine No man verilie You see therefore that while he boasteth of expresse words of scripture against vs he is driuen either to glose vpon the text or to faine some opinion vnto vs which we holde not at all and that all his bragges are but winde and wordes without matter as of one that-fcareth no shame because his heade is hidden The third waie of triall is necessarie collections made and inferred vpon the scriptures which we are willing to acknowledge and admitte to be of as great authoritie as the expresse words of the scripture But to discerne what is necessarie collection and what is not necessarie collection when there is no expresse wordes of scripture there is no certaine waie but the iudgement of Logicke for that onelie is necessarie collection which out of expresse words of scripture or articles of faith or other groundes confessed to be necessarilie gathered out of the holie scripture may be rightly concluded in a true and lawfull syllogisme whatsoeuer cannot be so concluded is no necessarie collection But our answerer saith we must referre our selues to the auncient primitiue Church for this meaning and his reason is For it is like they knew it best for that they liued nearer to the writers thereof then we doe who could well declare vnto them what was the meaning of the same we doe willinglie yeald to consult with the auncient primitiue Church to be holpen with their collections but to admit all their collections without examining them were to admit many errors that euen the Papists doe condemne for errors and which are reprooued by the scriptures them-selues Let one example serue in stead of manie S. Ierome collecteth out of this scripture It is good not to touch a woman that therefore it is euill to touch a woman Euerie man doth see that this is an vnnecessary collection and so are many other in the auncient fathers writings Wherefore we must vse the gift of knowledge of right gathering and concluding which God hath giuen not to be vnprofitable vnto his Church but to be both beneficiall and necessarie Againe marke the feeble reason vpon which our answerer groundeth his saying It is like they knew it best he cannot say it is necessarie that they knew it best then how prooueth he that it is like because they liued neerer to the writers then we doe who could well declare the meaning vnto them In deede if we had the writings of them that liued so neere vnto the Apostles that they might heare their meaning of their owne mouthes it were some likeliehood and yet no necessarie proofe
them-selues Whereof if there be no perticular vowe expressed yet seeing they vowe to followe the rule of Layolas which includeth whipping of them selues as you cannot denie Master Charke hath not belied the Iesuites as you note in your margent And as concerning the sect of heretikes called whippers you referre vs to Prateolus and Gerson to prooue that they helde manie wicked opinions for which they were condemned and aske what doth this make against the sober moderat chastisment which good men vse in secret vpon their owne bodies at such times as they esteeme them-selues for mortification to neede the same I answere there is no neede that any man for mortification should whippe him-selfe or els it is neede for al men so to whippe themselues except Iesuites haue more vntamed bodies then all other men And therefore it is but ethelothreschia a voluntarie Religion or a superstition after the precept and Doctrine of men in colour of humilitie and not sparing the bodie described by Saint Paul Col. 2. 23. and as for Gerson to whom you send vs doth not onelie condemne the hereticall opinions of those whippers but also their whipping of them-selues and that for diuers causes of which I will rebearse some First he accounteth it a tempting of God to laie such a burden vpon men as you do which make whipping needfull for mortification whereby it followeth that it is needfull for all men as mortification is not for Iesuites onelie Secondlie he saieth that the law of Christ ought no lesse in his seruice to auoide the superstitions of the Gentilles and Idolatours espiciallie these that are cruell and horrible then the olde law in the which yet there is expresse prohibition Deu. 14. where it is said be ye seruers of the Lord your God you shall not cut your selues where the glosse is you ought not in anie thing to be made like to Idolatours and in the hebrue it is you shall not teare or rend your selues Againe he saith for I doe but translate his wordes lex Christi c. the law of Christ is giuen sufficientlie in the tenne commaundements the keeping of which good simplicitie and plaine faith is enough to saluation especiallie of laie men and common people without anie new imposition of moste greeuous burdens according to the saying of Christ if thou wilt enter into life keep the commaundements Neither is it anie thing worth if it be said that the people doe voluntarilie take vpon them such whippings without any other commaundement while it is found that there-vpon they doe more licentiouslie contemne Gods commaundementes in manie thinges For the nature of man is stubburne which since it is forsaken of the state of originalliustice it is caried more greedelie vnto those things that are of mans inuention then those that are of Gods bidding And this is one degree of pride which Bernard saith is found among Religious men while they reioice more in abstinence or particular voluntarie praier then in all the regular discipline Againe the law of Christ being set forth sufficiently by the Apostles and holie Doctors is not found to haue appointed such nouelties of men whipping them-selues either by preaching or otherwise but rather to haue reprooued them as moste suspect and daungerous and which may growe to the slaunder of Christianes among the Iewes Saracens and Paganes as though the lawe of Christ were austere cruell and nourished in blood not in mercie Afterward he setteth downe reasons to dissuade this superstition as he calleth it Let diligent and earnest exhortation be made touching the praises of patience which hath her perfect worke preferring it before such voluntarie whippings as Augustine saith agreeablie to Seneca that the aduersities of this world are not so much to be laid vpon vs as when they happen patientlie to be suffered makeing thorough patience a vertue of necessitie I am not so madde saith Seneca that I would be sick but if I must be sick I will beare it patientlie Therefore there must be reckened vp diligentlie and seuerallie the diuers tribulationes sometime temporall sometime spirituall which daielie do giue and offer to vs whether we will or nill matter of patience such as are sicknes pouertie c and who is able to number all such tribulations which are such and so manie that we must not bring vpon our selues new sorowes for the valiant suffering of such dailie tribulations is enough for the purging of greater sinnes especiallie if contrition be encreased and humble confession in deede or purpose c. Yea the same Gerson saith farther Imò sicut non licet c. As it is not lawfull for a man of his owne authoritie to mayme or gelde him-selfe excepte it were for the healthe of the whole bodie So it is not lawfull as it seemeth that a man should violentlie draw blood of him-selfe except it be for bodelie Physick or els by the like reason a man might burne himselfe with an hotte iron which no man hath held or graunted hitherto except perhaps idolaters or false Christians such as are found in India which thinke that they ought to be baptized with fire Finallie Gerson alloweth no whipping except it be enioyned as penance and that it be executed by another man and that moderatelie and without offence giuing or ostentation and last of all without drawing of blood And this booke of Gerson as you wotte is in print to answere your question was there euer honest man but Master Charke that would haue obiected so impertinent a thing in Print as is the whipping of men by them-selues vppon anie falselie pretended neede of Mortification But Master Charke maketh you laugh when he saith the sect of whippers was condemned long agoe You aske how long and by whome For they began anno 1273. vnder Pope Gregorie the 10. and were condemned both by him and his successours by which authority Luther and Caluine are likewise condemned An high point in a low house as though the authoritie by which men are condemned is all the matter not the cause for which Adultery is condemned by Mahomet and by the same authoritie the Gospell of Christ is it not lawfull to approoue the one condemnation except a man allow the other No maruaile though you laugh at this matter for indeed it is verie ridiculous as moste of your collections be And whereas you affirme that Pope Gregorie the 10. did condemne these Flagellantes I suppose you are not able to bring any author of credit that so doth write For in his time they sprang vp and continued almoste fourescore yeares without anie solemne condemnation For anie thing that Prateolus or who so writeth most diligentlie of here sies can testifie Prateolus out of Carion sheweth that 1343. they came to Spire in Germanie when the diet of the Empire was kept and through opinion of great holines had good entertainment Tandem verò damnata est At length saith he this sect was condemned and extinguished with fire
priest of god were placed But the dishonour and the derogation that now is done to the much more excellent office st anacth vpon vnfaithfullnes mistrust of Gods promise loue of sin liking of libertie loth somnes of truth and vnminde fullnes of saluation In which case though neither the heauens yeald fire for the present punishment nor the earth open for their speedie passage to eternall paine yet the perpetuall fight which they keepe against Gods ordinance their disordered life and disobedience their darknesse of vnderstanding in such light of approoued trueth and the continuall course of the Church which inmarucilous miserie they doe willinglie susteine doth me thinke fullie resemble the lamentable slate of the damned and for saken sorte and therefore being yet a liue in goodliking and libertie I feare they wittinglie and wilfullie perish FVLKE And we nothing doubt but the contempt of the ministers of the ghospel is a greater offence thē theirs which despised the ministers of the Lawe 2. Cor. 3. But that our neglect of popipsh shrist for which we are so heinouslie accused should stand vpon vnfaithfulnes or mistrust of Gods promise it is verie incredible but for that the faithful trust of gods promises without any such ordinance of man offereth vs free remission of our sinnes we are bolde to reiect it And that loue of sinne and liking of libertie therein should mooue vs to refuse popish absolution it is altogether vnlikelie For where absolution maie be bought for a litle monie at the hands of men who is so madde to present him selfe before the Iudgement seat of God and who that delighteth in sinne will not thinke to haue libertie therein when he maie compound with his iudges for a trifling matter in such cases as deserue eternall damnation As for the hell in which Allen placeth vs aliue is like the purgatorie in which he teacheth men to be placed when they are dead For what ordinance of God doth he dreame of against which we should fight popish priesthoode shrist and pardons they are not yet nor euer shal be prooued to be gods ordinance And what discord seeth he in our life more then the common frailtie of mortall men which neuer be free srom sinning or greater then euerie man maie see in the liues of popish Priests and people Touching disobedience lettreason and rebellion speake whether they be found in vs or in them Finallie our darknes of vnderstanding in so great light of Allens approoued trueth when it appeareth shall either argue vs to be verie blinde or Allen to dreame when he is awake And the continuall course of the Church if it bring not Allen into a confused case worse then purgatorie before he can shew it for popish shrift and pardons we refuse not to lie in such an hell as he placeth vs vntill he and his fellowes of their charitie will say maste to bring vs out of it ALLEN And yet I am not so void of all hope of their recouerie that I would refuse to conferre with them touching that aut horitie of remission of sinnes or other preheminence which the Priests of Christes Church doe clayme and they so ear they so earnestlie controll Though the rather I would do it for the helpe of the more humble sorte which in these daies of disobedience be rather driuen out of the waie by force of the common tempest then by malice or misbehauiour towards the ministerie whome in Christes name I must aducrtise to consider carefullie in what doubt and daunger they and all their dearest do stand in this pitifull vacation and long lack of the practize of priesthood for the remission of their sinnes and other needefull succour of their soules For if Christ by whose blood we obtaine pardon of our offences haue by his ordinance made man the minister of our reconciliation to God and the bestower of his mercie in remission of sinnes then doubtles whosoeuer neglecteth to walke the knowen waie of saluation and refuseth the ordinarie meanes of mercie which Christ meaneth to be applied to our vse none otherwise but by the office of mortall men he liueth in sinne perpetuallie he dieth in sinne without hope of recouerie and for sinne without doubt shall perish euerlastinglie Therefore the matter of so great importance standing on so doubtfull termes it were no wisdome to sleepe so soundlie in such present peril nor to continue without care and singular respect of most dreadefull state In which if we passe our daies without hope or possibilitie of Gods mercie because we refuse mans ministerie then all our life and studies all our paines or pleasures all our workes and waies doe nothing els but driue vs in disobedience to extreame death and desperation FVLKE Though I haue small hope of your recouerie which so long haue bin frosen in the dregs of popish heresie yet wil I not refuse to confer with you after this manner or anie other that is conuenient both to iustifie such contempt of Popish priesthood and pardons as we teach and also to let the doubtfull sorte plainlie see that such vsurpation as you pretende to maintaine hath no good ground either in scripture or in the moste auncient writers or practize of the eldest and syncerest primitiue Church of Christ. As for that point which you take such pains to prooue that the contempt of mans ministerie for reconciliation vnto God and remission of sinnes bringeth damnation is no matter of controuersie betweene vs for we beleeue confesse and teach euen as much and in as manie wordes readie to subscribe and sweare to the same if it were lawfullie required of vs. But whether it be the ordinance of Christ that Popish priestes Bishoppes and Pope him selfe should exact auricular confession as they do and giue absolution and pardon in such manner as they vse this I saie is that which you should occupie your style in for this is that which we denie ALLEN I make the more matter hereof for that not onelie such as be led into folly falsehood by the persuasion of some to whose teaching and lyking they haue vnaduisedlie addicted them-selues but also diuerse euen of the faithfull that be not fallen thanks be giuen to God so farre as to contemne the Church and Christes appointed ordinance are not yet so touched as in such case of extreame miscrie Christen men should be For heresie is such a creeping and contagiouse canker that albeit she vtterlie through mercie and Gods grace kill not all yet she dulleth the conscience drieth vp the zeale and infecteth the mindes of moste The like lack of Christian comforte hath beene often els amongest the people in such stormes of the Church but so litle care and consideration therof I do not lightlie remember In the persecution of the Vandalles and Arian Gothes in Affrike the people of God were siuered from their pastours and thereby wanted succour of their soules as we now do but thereof they conceaued such greife and heauines that it is
holie ghost was God by whose authoritie and proper power they did alwaies since Christs word was spoken remitte the same The which beeing true as it cannot be false that is so agreeable both to scriptures and to all our fathers faith the heresy of our time must needes directly impugne the vertue and power of Gods owne spirit For as the proofe of mans ministerie in this foresaid function induceth the true and euerlasting Godhead of the holy ghost by whome they practize that power so the denial thereof and robberie of priesthoode of this their moste iust claime doth directlie spoile God of his honour and of the euerlasting right that he hath in remission of sinnes So whiles these goodmen seeke to abase man vniustlie they blaspheme God highlie and together with mans ministerie they bring vnto vtter contempt Gods owne authoritie FVLKE Your deifying of popish priests doth altogether weaken the force of that argument which our fathers vsed against the auncient heretikes to prooue the diuinitie of the holie Ghost For it were an easie matter for Eunomius Macedonius or anie other heretike that was against his godhead to replie that by ministerie of God the holie Ghost might as properlie forgiue sinnes as Priestes do by the ministerie of Christ and of the holie ghost yea so farre forth as thereby they are made halfe Gods yea deified and made Gods in deede But you vtter repugnancie when you saie that by Gods authoritie and proper power Priestes do forgiue sinnes Where you make it not proper to God which is common to others with him Therefore you should speake more properlie to saie that God the holy ghost by his owne authoritie and power proper to the deitie doth forgiue sinnes in their ministery men thereto authorized do no more in proper speach and sense but testifie and declare what God doth for which declaration and testification seeing they are the embassadours and messengers of God vnto the world to declare his pleasure of reconciliation or condemnation they are said to forgiue sinnes or to retaine them which they do not properlie but pronounce the sentence of God concerning the remission or retention of mens sinnes And that this was the meaning of the Auncient fathers concerning the authoritie and power of Gods ministers it is moste manifest by this argument whereby they choke the enuier of the holie ghostes diuinitie from which you cutte of all the sinnewes and force it hath to prooue it when you communicate to men that which is proper to God and aduance men aboue the nature of meere men when you deifie their persons by meanes of the giftes of the holie Ghost giuen to them and make them of abilitie to exercise the proper workes of God As for the deniall and robberie that you ascribe I can not tell to what heretikes of this time we detest as much as ye not seeking to abase man beneath the nature and condition of man norseeking to extoll him by robbing God of his glorie and proper effects to magnifie menne to deifie the persoas of men as you do in plaine termes Whereby it is manifest we are as far from blaspheming god or making mans ministerie contemptible which he exerciseth in the name of God as you are from sobrietie thus to iudge if your meaning be of vs or thus to reason if you would defend the argument of the auncient fathers against the auncient heretikes ALLEN But for the readersease and more light of our cause I ioyne thus in argument with them againe vpon the second part of Christes owne wordes and action had in the authorizing of his Apostles Whatsoeuer the holie Ghost maie doe in this case by the proper power of his Godhead that may the Apostles and Priestcs do by seruice and ministerie through the power of the holie Ghost But the holie Ghost properlie and rightlie doth remit sinnes Therefore the Apostles doe rightlie remit sinnes by their ministerie in the said holie Ghost All partes of this conclusion stand vpright and feare no falsehood they be guarded on euerie side by Christes action by wordes of scripture by the Doctors plain warrant and by all reason With all which whosoeuer is not contented but will needes extinguere spiritum extinguish Gods spirit and violentlie take from the Church the greatest comfort of all mans life that in this infirmitie of our flesh standeth in moste hope by his gift in remission of sinnes for which especiall cause the said spirit was mercifullie breathed vpon the Apostles peculiarly before the mare common sending of the same from heauen aboue If all this reason and iust demonstration of trueth will not serue them I will charge them with this graue conclusion of S. Augustine vttered partlie against the Nouatians especallie against the desperate that would not seeke for Gods mercie by the Churches ministerie in the sacrament of penance To be briefe I will speake it in English Whosoeuer he be that beleeueth no mans sinnes to be remitted in Gods Church and therefore despiseth the bountifulnes of God inso mightie a worke if he in that obstinate minde continue til his liues end he is guiltie of sinne against the holie Ghost in which holy ghost Christ remitteth sinnes FVLKE I doe greatlie commend you that you haue such regard of the readers ease and it seemeth you haue good confidence of your cause that you flie not the light of Logicall iudgement by which the trueth shall more plainelie appeere to all sortes of men then by anie discourses at large vnder which many great errors may be often couered vnder sophistical cloudes ambiguity of words which in a briefe syllogisme is soone and easilie espied To answere your argument therefore First I distinguish of your Maior for if you meane by seruice and ministerie the expressing and declaring of the will and pleasure of the holy ghost wherunto they are authorized I acknowledge your Maior proposition to be true whatsoeuer the holie Ghost maie doe in this case by the proper power of his godhead that maie the Apostles and Priestes doe by seruice ministerie through the power of the holie Ghost But if you meane by seruice and ministerie that the proper power of God is communicated to men I denie your Maior as false and absurde For the Apostles and Priests maie not by seruice and ministerie through the power of the holie Ghost forgiue sinnes properlie which the holie ghost by proper power of his godhead may doe for this is a proper power not com municable vnto any creature but a declaration of the will of him that hath such power is the ministeriall authoritie by which men forgiue sinnes Secondlie I answere that your conclusion is deceitfull For your Minor Extreame or Assumption is not perfectlie ioyned with your Maior or Proposition in the conclusion For your Minor is that the holie ghost properly rightlie doth remit sinnes So your conclusion should be therefore the Apostles properlie and rightlie doe remit sinnes by their ministerie
in this age by the singular mercie of God to the vndoubted saluation of many thousands The outward preaching of Christes Doctrine is not the proper worke of Christ but common to all his true and faithfull seruantes the Prophettes Apostles and their successoures Bishopes Pastours and teachers It is Christ as Austine saieth that teacheth inwardly by his spirit from heauen and is the author of the doctrine that is taught on earth in which respect he saith He that heareth you heareth me c. But it is the voice of man that vttereth this Doctrine in the outward eares of men and not the voice of Christ. ALLEN But to beare downe the aduersaries of trueth fullly we will ioyne with them touching the sacrament of extream vnction the sacrament of baptisme and such other in which they cannot nor doe not denie concerning one of them but man without all derogation to Gods honour remitteth sinnes And how can it here seeme strange that in the sacrament of penance God should by mans office remit mortall crimes seeing it cannot be denied but God vseth not onelie mans ministerie but also the externall seruice of bare and base water which is much inferiour by nature and dignitie to a Priest or anie other man to take awaie sinnes both originall and actuall in the sacrament of baptisme in which sacrament seeing aswell the Priest is the minister as the water an instrument whereby God remitteth all sinnes be they neuer so many and grieuouse whether they be committed by their owne acte or by our fathers ofspring why doth it dishonour God any more that the Priest should be the minister of remission in the sacrament of penance then it doth by as great an office almoste in remitting of sinnes in the sacrament of baptisme Againe read the Epistle of S. Iamer and you shall finde the Priest made a minister the oile an instrument in the extreamitie of sicknes to forgiue sinnes how much more is the priest without anie imparing of Gods power the worker vnder him of our reconciliation and pardoning in the sacrament of penance in which especiallie the grace of God is giuen aboue all other sacraments to that onlie end and purpose I may be more bold to vse this comparing of sundrie Sacraments together because not onely Saint Ambrose refuteth the Father of this fond heresie by the same reason but also because moste of the Doctors of the Church doe confesse that she euer had these waies to remit mans sinnes by without derogation to Christes soueraigntie herein of whome onelie she holdeth her right as well in the sacrament of penance as in baptisme or extreame vnction Saint Chrysostome saith Neque enim solùm cùm nos regenerant sed postea etiam condonandorum nobis peccatorum potestatem obtinent infirmatur inquit inter vos aliquis Accersat presbyteros Ecclesiae Neither haue Priests power in baptisme onelie but afterward also they haue good authoritie to forgiue our sinnes Is any man feeble amongst you saith he Call for the Priests of the Church let them saie praiers ouer him annoint him with oile and the praier of faith shall saue the sicke and if he be in sinnes they shall be forgiuen him But this sacrament instituted by Gods word and Christes authoritie vsed of olde and well knowne to all the Fathers is now become nothing in our building Sinne is now a daies so fauored that no sacrament may be abiden for the release thereof The verie expresse wordes of Scripture can take no place where flattering of wickednes and phantasie ruleth to the contrarie FVLKE Touching extreame vnction we shall speake anone but of baptisme we saie that to speake properlie man baptiseth with water vnto repentance as an outward seale of the forgiuenes of sinnes Christ onelie baptizeth with the holie Ghost and with fire actuallie and effectuallie to purge and clense our sinnes Of the sacrament of penance we must first be resolued before we can acknowledge any office of man to remitte mortal crimes therein If Christ had instituted a sacrament of penance as he hath of baptisme we wold acknowledge the like effectes in the one that we doe in the other Concerning the anointing with oile spoken of in Saint Iames whereunto besides bodelie health remission of sins was promised it was a sacrament while that special gift of healing continued but no instituriō of perpetuall continuance Chrysostome citeth this text of Saint Iames to prooue that not onelie in the sacrament of regeneration but afterwards also the Priests hath power to remit sinnes not onelie by teaching and admonishing but also by helpe of praier But of anie perpetuall sacrament there is no mention in him neither was it instituted by our sauiour Christ with anie commaundement of perpetuall continuance as babtisme the Lordes supper are but onely so long as the gift should continue Neither doth Saint Iames giue it in charge as a perpetuall sacrament but onelie admonisheth the Church to vse that benefit of healing so long as it should remaine with men ALLEN There be some that affirme this annoiling to haue beene a miraculous practise to take awaie the diseases of the sicke and therefore that it did decaie with the working of other the like miracles which after the spring of our religion were not vsual But that is a fond glosse For I aske of thē whether the people then Christianed were instructed or rather commaunded to call for the Apostles or others to heale them miraculously of their diseases or whether all Priestes had the gift of working miracles in the Primitiue Church If they saie yea touching the first piont then as well were they charged to send for them to reuiue them after they were dead because the Apostles so could doe when they same occasion and so did by some But that is plaine absurde and false that euer Apostle gaue in charge to anie man much lesse to make a generall precept as S. Iames here doth to seeke after miracles for that were to tempt God And for the second they are not so vnreasonable to answere me that all Priestes could worke miracles which is a seuerall gift of the holie Ghost from the power of their ministerie and therefore Saint Iames would not haue charged the sicke persons to haue called indifferentlie for Priestes to heale them miraculouslie the gift of miracles being not common to them all nor perpetuallie promised to anie of them all Againe I would knowe of them whether there was anie miraculous healing that had the remission of sinnes ioyned vnto it or to the externall creature by which they healed any person If they saie yea then it followeth that the Priestes might by the office of that creature heale a man of his sinnes which they affirme to be blaspemie and dishonour to God But to what absurditie so euer you bring them they will not confesse mortall men in externall Sacraments to remit sinnes FVLKE You are better aduised now concerning Caluines iudgement of the oile where
that he speaketh in the next chapter of the first repentance that in men of discretion might goe before baptisme although it be true of all true repentance and conuersion vnto God ALLEN And let no man think that true repentance can be in anie or effectuall for the remission of sinnes if he follow not the appointed ordinance of God for remission of sinnes For I dare be bolde to saie that as since the time that our Sauiours wordes tooke place Nisi quis renatus fuerit Except a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost he can not enter into the kingdome of heauen that as since these words no man can be saued without baptisme so likewise since Christ spake these wordes Whose sinnes you do forgiue they be forgiuen I dare saie neuer man was saued nor can be saued that either contemneth or neglecteth confession or earnestlie seeketh not for it if he fall in relapse of deadlie crimes after his baptisme I will speake it plainlie because I would haue it thought on earnestlie As no man ordinarilie can be saued without baptisme so can no man that euer after baptisme committeth deadlie sinne be saued without sacramentall confession or the earnest desire and seeking for the same This maie seeme sharpe to some but this will prooue true to all contemners of Gods ordinance For whensoeuer God worketh his giftes and grace among men by anie ordinarie meanes appointed for the purpose it is great sinne to seeke for the same eitherwithout it or to presume to haue it at Gods handes otherwise then he hath prescribed But the sacrament of penance and confession made to the priest is the appointed meanes that God vseth in his Church for remission of mortall sinnes therefore whosoeuer thinketh to haue remission immediatly at Gods hand he shall first be voide of his purpose and then further be charged of high presumption and contempt of his will and ordinance The remission of originall sinner as properly pertaineth to God as of mortall sinner yet because Christ hath instituted a sacrament as an instrument meanes to conuey that singular benefit to man he that would now claime the same immediatly at Gods owne hand and therefore neglecteth the sacrament of baptisme or would minister it to him selfe without the Priests office he should neuer obtaine remission of his originall sinne but adde to that high persumption and disobedience of gods commaundement which of it selfe without originall sinne were damnable FVLKE No wise man thinketh that true repentance can be in any or effectuall for the remission of sins if he dispise to follow the appointed ordinance of God for remission of sins but you shalneuer prooue that shrift or auricular confession is a necessarie and generall ordinance of god for al that shal obtein forgiuenes of sins committed after baptisme How manie mortall sinnes are committed by children and others where of they haue no remembrance to confesse them so that if confession were necessarie remission of those sinnes for them were impossible That you dare be bolde to saie that no man can be saued without externall baptisme of water it argueth more boldnes then wisdome except you were able to prooue that the wordes of Christ by you cited are necessarie to be vnderstood of the baptisme of water And you are bolder then Fulgentius for he as you hard erewhile excepteth them that suffer martyredome for Christs name before they be baptized in water And Saint Ambrose is bolde against you to affirme that the Emperour Valentinianus the yonger who was slaine before he was baptized was vndoubtedlie saued For comforting his sisters he saith to them in that seueral oration which he made vpon the death of Valentinian the Emperour Sed audiui vos dolere quod nō acceperit sacramentū baptismatis Dicitemihi quid aliud in nobis est nisi voluntas nisi petitio Atqui etiam dudum hoc votum habuit vt antequam in Italiam venisset initiaretur proximè baptizari se à me velle significauit ideo prae coeteris carsis me accipiendum putauit Non habet ergo gratiam quam desiderauit non habet quam poposeit quia poposcit accepit vbi est illud iustus quacunque morse praeuentus fuerit anima eius in refrigerio erit Solue igitur pater sancte munus seruo tuo quod Moses dum in Siritu vidit accepit quod Dauid quia ex reuelatione cognouit emeruit Solue inquam seruo tuo Valentiniano munus quod concupiuit munus quod poposcit sanus robustus incolumis Si affectus aegritudine distulisset tamen non penitus à tua misericordia esset alienus qui celeritate temporis esset non voluntate sraudatus solue ergo seruo tuo munus tuae gratiae quam ilie nunquam negauit qui ante diem mortis templorum priuilegia negauit insurgentibus quos reuereriposset astabat virorum catcrua gentilium supplicabat senatus Non metuebat hominibus displicere in Christo qui habuit spiritum tuum quomodo non accepit gratiam tuam Aut si quia solenniter non sunt celebrata mysteria hoc mouet ergo ne martyres si catechumeni fuerint coronentur non enim coronantur si non initiansur Quòd si suo abluuntur sanguint hunc swa pietas abluit voluntas But I haue heard that you are greeued because he receiued not the sacrament of baptisme Tell me then what other thing is there in vs but our will but our desire But long since he had this purpose that before he came into Italie he would be dedicated and next he signified that he would be baptized by me And therefore before other causes he thought that I was to be taken Hath he not then the grace which he desired hath he not the grace that he called for receiued it because he called for it And where is then that saying the iust by what death so euer he be preuented his soule shal be in rest performe therfore holy Father that gift vnto thy seruant which Moses while he sawe in spirit receiued which Dauid because he knewe by reuelation obtained performe I saie vnto thy seruant Valentinian the gift which he called for being sounde strong in good health If being stroken with sicknes he had differred yet he should not be vtterly estranged from thy mercie which was depriued by swiftnes of time not by his owne will Performe therefore vnto thy seruant the gift of thy grace which he neuer denied which before the day of his death denied the priuiledges of the Idols temples to them that rose vp of whome he might haue stood in awe There stoode by a great rout of heathen men the senat made supplication Neuertheles he feared not for Christ to displease men He that had thy spirit how did he not receiue thy grace Or if this doth mooue because the mysteries were not solemnlie celebrated therefore let neither martyres be crowned if they haue not beene baptized for
proofe or authoritie you doe so confidentlie affirme ALLEN And yet I talke not now of taking or deliuering anle man out of Purgatory so much sooner as so many daies release doth import when he is in it alreadie but I meane as I often saie for the simples sake of him that is yet aliue and in the Churches iurisdiction and therefore may haue by the keies of the Church a pardon of his dets either all or part to preuent the paines of Purgatorie or discharge the debt thereof before that terrible daie come when it shal be actuallie required And in this sense vndoubtedly are the great number of yeares daies to be taken which be exceeding necessarie to procure mercie in these euil times wherein we may behold the pitifulwaste of Christian workes euerie where and litle penance to be done no not of the better sort of Christan people As for the other disobedient children that euerie way laugh their mother to scorne whether she vse sextritie of discipline or lenitie in remission they haue no part neither of the Churches blessing nor of the holy workes of Saintes nor of Gods owne peace and pardon Our Lord giue them the grace of repentance that they may haue a tast either of the Churcher discipline or of her mercy and lensty FVLKE You talke and meane that men should make haste while they are aliue to take their pardons whereof perhapes you are a proctor or pettie marchant vnder the Pope not regarding so much what the Popes iurisdiction is ouer poore soules in Purgatorie as how to get monie out of liuing mens purses for pardons and dispensations to mantaine you in your traiterous popery Your complaint of litle penance done is vaine hypocritical seeing you your selfe by mantaining of pardons are occasion that none at all need to be done of them that haue mony to paie for them God open the eies of the simple if it be his will to see your treacherie and either giue you true repentance orels that which your treasons heresies hypocrisie haue long agoe deserued It is prooued as wel by sundry examples of the old law as by Christs one often fact his Apostles that inioyned or deserued punishment may be released by the gouernours of the Church in their pardons THE 9. CHAP. ALLEN Some may here maruel perchance that such power should be giuen to mortall men as to remit such great portion of penance as by iustice ought to be enioyned or such a number of yeares as are appointed for satisfaction correction of former misdeeds thereby to remooue from the partie the heauy hand of god prepared for iudgement who would not wonder much hereat if they considered that the debt of hell paines and eternity of punishment which incomparablie exceedeth manie thousand yeares might by the Priestes office and alwaies is in the due execution of the sacrament of penance fully remooued from the partie penitent And where mercy putteth away deserued damnation there may much lesse force of grace turne awaie the punishment of Purgatorie being not transitorie and equivalent onelie to the penance of a number of yeares prescribed In which case if the Church of God should haue no preheminence now after the incarnation of Christ since which time the waiet of mercie towardes mankinde must needs be much enlarged our state gouernment should be much inferiour to the regiment and to the priesthood of the old law which trulie did in al things but as a shadow and figure resemble the Maiesty of our Churches prcheminence especiallie there where mercy grace were to be shewed which came by Christ Iesus Behold then some sleppe of this most excellent power giuen to our chiefe Priestes in the persons of Moses and Aaron whoe are noted in the booke of Exodus and Numbers meruelouslie to haue procured Gods mercie and sometimes by force of sacrifice praier and singular zeale to hauereleased some great portion of the paines and punishment which God himselfe by his owne mouth and determination had laied vpon the people With what meruelous confidence of his office and pitie of the afflicted sort did one of them crie out vnto god to holde his hand and pardon the people after they had deserued se great punishment for worspiping the golden Idoll of the Calfe in the wildernes Lord saith Moses this people hath committed an horrible sinne and they haue erected golden Gods Forgiue them this sinne Lord or ells if thou wilt not dash me out of thy booke to which thou hast written This gouernour and this priest praied not after a common sort for pardon of the peoples punishment but he claimeth it wish confidence and in a manner requireth it as by his iurisdiction and office Such was the force of praier and priesthood before Christs spirituall souer aignitie was honoured in the worlde otherwise then in a figure And yet god in a manner was at that point with them then that he would pardon punish at their pleasures For when the sinne was exceeding greeuous he maketh as it were meanes to Moses that he should not stay him nor his anger from punishing of the offendors Let me alone Moses saith our Lord suffer me to be angrie FVLKE Men may iustly maruell that you professing methode doe set the Cart before the horse and frame of your building the roofe before the foundation but if they consider that this way you take is of more force to confounde a simple witte then to teach a matter plainlie they maie cease to maruell and acknowledge that the compasse of your cause whereof you speake in the beginning will abide none other order But to the matter and argument of this Chapter it hath bin answered before that in the discipline of the Church the gouernours thereof haue power vpon good consideration and triall of the offenders repentance and not otherwise at their pleasure to release enioyned time of repentance which was enioyned for none other end so much as to bring the party to repentanes and thereof to assure or satisfie the Church But as the discipline of the Church militant serueth for the onelie time of her warfare in this life so the gouernors of the Church haue no authoritie either to inioyne or to release out of the compas of this life And therefore this power of binding loosing vpon earth cannot be extended to anie purgatorie paines or rather pickpurse after this life and consequentlie it can be no shadowe to couer the filthie and blasohemous nundination and chaffering of the Popes pardons for thousands and hundreth thousands of yeares What authority the ministers of the Church haue in remitting sinnes hath beene handled sufficientlie before They are Gods messengers to declare his forgiuenes to them that trulie repent and so they are to release the bande of discipline in open offenders where the fruites of repentance doe appeare Your argument that the priesthood in the new law is of more power to purchase mercie then in the
olde lawe to prooue that the Popes pardons extend vnto purgatorie is verie farre fett For the priest hood of our sauiour Christ hath succeeded to the priesthood of the lawe as the bodie to the figure or shadow thereof But purchasing of mercie perteineth not to the ministers of the Church but preaching and declaring of Gods mercie wherein they excell the preaching office of the priests of the lawe in more large plaine and cleare demonstration thereof in Christ exhibited borne suffered raised from deade and ascended into heauen not in the matter of mercie or the onelie meane meritorius to obtaine it which is Iesus Christ. As for the discipline of the Church now is not vnlike to the discipline then neither is there anie cause in respect of Christ exhibited that it should be anie Iooser now then it was then For the grace of God which bringeth saluation to all men hath appeered instructing vs that we should vtterly denie vngodlines and worldlie lustes and liue soberlie iustlie and godly in this world waiting for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of the great god and our sauiour Iesus Chist which hath giuen himselfe for vs that he might redeeme vs from all iniouity and purge vs a peculiar people vnto himselfe zelous of good works Thus the holy Ghost describeth the end and effect of the mercie of God in Christ exhibited chargeing Titus to speake and exhort to these thinges to reprehend with alearnestnes and suffer no man to contemne him There is no cause therefore why the sinnews of discipline in the Church of Christ should be loosened or rather cutte in sunder by the Podes pardons which taketh vpon him to release all time of repentance appointed by the gouernours of the Church vnder pretense of greater mercie showed by Christ then was shewed in the olde law But Maises and Aaron you saie procured mercie and pardon for the people and then you bring in the example of paid no breined for worshipping the golden Image of a calse where Aaron him selse was so deepe in that he was no meete person to make intercession for others But in the example you prooue not anie power or iurisdiction of priesthood which doth ser forth onelie the effect of the praier of the faithfull as Saint Iames suth of Helias that he was a man and yet obteined great thinges by his praier Neither doth Moses pray with confidence of his priest lie office which he had not for Aaron was priest both by the law of nature as the elder and afterward by Gods especiall appointment but Moses praieth vpon confidence of Gods promises which were these that the people shoulde be brought into the lande of Chanaon and that Christ should come of the tribe of Iuda which could not haue had their effect if all the people had beene destroied though a great nation had beene made of Moses He strengthneth his faith also by two other reasons in his praier the one of the glorie of God which should be blasphemed by the Egyptiens if the people were destroyed in the wildernes the other of the benefites of God alreadie bestowed vpon the people which should be in vaine if the people shoulde thus sodenlie be consumed But of claiming it with confidence of his priesthood and requiring it as by his iurisdiction and office there is no mention For what iurisdiction or office could he haue to controll God in his iudgements And therefore it is a horrible blasphemous saying that God in a manner was at that point with them that he would pardon and punish at their pleasures Where your meaning is yet more biasphemous that God should much rather he at that point now to pardon and punish at the Popes pleasure which is nothing els but to exalte Antichrist aboue God when his iustice and mercie should depend vpon that deuill incarnates pleasure Yet for reason to excuse this blasphemie you saie that God maketh as it were meanes to Moses that he shoulde not staie him nor his anger from punishing of the offenders Let me alone Moses saith our Lord and suffer me to be angrie But who is so meanlie exercised in the scriptures that he doth not acknowledge that this speech of God as a thousand more in the scriptures is vttered after the affection and infirmitie of man whereof God is moste free yet condescending to the weakenes of mans vnderstanding often vseth so to speake Of which phrases of speech who so shall conclude as you doe maie inferre an hundred horrible heresies and more The true sense therefore of those wordes is that the people indeede had deserued to be destroied but that he had otherwise determined at the praier of Moses and for those causes which his spirit instructed Moses to vtter whome by this speech he prouoketh and stirreth vp to pretie for the people he was purposed to pardon and spare them not that he euer was of minde to submitt his iustice and mercie to mens pleasure in such sorte as he shoulde be driuen to make meanes to men that he might execute his iudgementes and shew his mercie both which he doth according to his owne moste free wil moste excellent wisdome and incomparable glorie ALLEN So when his sister Marie was punished by a leprosie for enuying at her brothers authoritie he cried vnto our Lorde and said Lorde God heale her againe of this disease and of his mercie so he did inioyning onelie vnto her seuen daies separation Aaron also procured pardon for the people by the like force of his praier and prieslhood when by sedition the people had highlie offended God yea he did as it were limitte and moderate Gods appointed punishment that his wrath should extend no farther but to the deslruction of a certaine number For when God said vnto Moses and Aaron depait you hence from amongst this people for euen now will I consume them Vpon which worde streight the destruction began and grew verie sore a flame of fire pitifullie consuming them But Aaron out of hande with his incense ranne to that parte where the plague of Gods ire wasted moste and there censed vp towardes heauen and carnestlie requested for the people and so placing him euen iust betwixt those that were slaine and the residue that were aliue the wrath and indignation of God ceassed FVLKE Moses by his praier obteined of God that he did heale his sister of her Ieprosie Ergo the Pope by his pardons maie release men of the punishment laide on them by God when in his pardons he vseth not humble praiers but standeth vpon his power and iurisdiction vpon the power of Peter and Paul and in paine of their indignation beside Gods wrath and sometimes moste presumptuouslie commaundeth the angels to execute his pleasure But whereas God enioyned to Marie seuen daies separation you should haue made your argument somewhat more probable if you could haue shewed out of the scripture that Moses by his pontificall iurisdiction released those daies or anie part
his seruantes yet he so terrifyed that we all ought to feare For which of vs is without sinne which when he had said to them by whome the sinner was offered to be punished that he which knew him-selfe to be without sinne should first cast a stone at her their crueltie fell downe by trembling of their conscience For then they slipping awaie out of that congregation left the poore wretch alone to him that is mercifull Let the pietie of Christians giue place to this sentence to which the impietie of the Iewes gaue place let the humilitie of them that are obedient giue place to that to which the pride of persecutors gaue place let the confessiō of the faithful yeld to that whereto yeelded the dissembling of the tempter What haue we here for this strange iurisdiction or for the Popes pardons in this example or in the example of Saint Augustine excommunicating or suspending of Bonifacius for violating the priuiledge of the Church in taking awaie a man worthie to die that fled thether for succour when he did not execute as you saie but restored him vnhurt to life as appearerh by his answere The pronnesse of Ecclesiasticall persons vnto mercie and pitie may be gathered by this example but no argument to prooue the Popes pardons to be good that I saie not it may be doubted whether such clemencie standeth with Gods iustice that commaundeth the murtherer to be drawen euen from his aultar to be executed And Augustine himselfe in his Epistle of intercession commendeth the punishing mercie and con demneth the pardoning crueltie beside that we muste liue according to laws and not according to examples ALLEN Againe Christ deliuered in the fift of Saint Iohn one that had beene feeble eight and thirtie yeares long for a punishment of his sinnes and that he might vnderstand that that sicknes came vnto him for correction of his former offences he said vnto him after in the temple Lo thou art made wholl looke thou sinne no more least a worse thing happen vnto thee Neither is it vnlike but the partie had his sinnes remitted long before Christ healed him of his corporall infirmity by the sacrifices of the law and by ordinarie meanes of that time through the faith in Christ Iesus Whereby you may perceiue that our high Bishop Christ hath giuen pardon to many not onelie of their sinnes and euer lasting damnation but also of the temporall paine and punishment either prescribed by the law or enioyned by Gods owne appointment Then we neede not wonder that the Churches officer holding by his right both the title to pardon and to punish should be by his example so prone to mercie which of the two is alwaies moste commended in spirituall regiment FVLKE Christ healed many that suffered punishment of bodelie diseases for their sinnes to shew that he was appointed of god to be the heauenly phisitian to heale the diseases of our soules by pardoning our sinnes But that the partie whereof you speake had his sinnes remitted long before Christ healed him of his corprall infirmitie by sacrifices of the law and ordinarie meanes of that time through the faith in Christ Iesus though you saie it is like yet it is verie vnlike For he had laien eight and thirtie yeares in the portch of Siloam waighting for the miraculous manner of healing that God shewed at certain times vppon them that first entred aster the water of the poole was mooued All which time it is not like that he could be partaker of the sacrifices or ordinarie meanes by which remission of sinnes thorough faith in Iesus Christ was testified to the participants of those meanes But rather as his owne wordes sound it is like he was onelie attentiue to the vsuall meane which God shewed to attein health of bodie thereby not caring for true repentance and conuersion to god yet it appeareth he had small taste of spirituall doctrine when he knew not of whome he receiued the benefit of health and so was vnthankesull vnto him for it But what is concluded out of this example that the officers of the Church in spirituall regiment ought to be prone to mercie Many examples prooue that more directlie but that the officers of the Church haue power to punish and pardon as Christ had this example prooueth not ALLEN Neuerthelesse we meane not that the priest hath alwaies such power as Christ had in remoouing of bodelie sickenes not onelie because they know not when it is the deserued paine for sinne as he did but also because as Saint Augustine saith Remissio in Ecclesia magis fit propter futurum iudicium Pardoning in the Church hath more respect to the iudgement of the next worlde he meaneth by the temporall iudgement and for that he alledgeth out of Saint Paull that the iudgement which he willeth vs to preuent by punishing our selues is the correction of such as God loueth lest they be damned with the worlde which cannot signifie the euerlasting iudgement Wee meane not then that the Pardons of the Ecclesiasticall Magistrates should perteine to the releasing of bodelie paines duely deserued for sinne or for other causes appointed because Christ so did not vnto all but vnto some as it pleased his wisedome but this we saie that as he of his mercie tooke away and released the sinners of certaine temporall afflictions as well appointed by the law of Moses as enioyned by Gods owne hand and so gaue a Pardon of that which both Moses and his owne Father appointed euen so maie the Apostles and their successours pardon anie man that is worthie of that benefite of some parte or all such penance as their owne lawe prescribed or the iustice of God vpon the bonde of their decrees and the debt of the sinners hath in the next life prepared Although as I haue once noted before not onelie the Apostles miraculouslie but also Gods Priests dailie doe heale in the sacrament of extreame vnction and praiers not onelie sinnes but the penitent of their sickenes and infirmity where the disease especially came of sin as I suppose or otherwise when it is expedient to the partie and glorious to Gods name FVLKE You were bolde to saie before that if any man were sicke by Gods appointment for that cause onelie to satisfie for his sinnes remitted that he should streight recouer by the Popes pardon which is to graunt him such power as Christ had in remoouing ofbodelie sicknes suffered for the cause aboue specified That the priest wanteth this power because he knoweth not when bodelie sickenes is the deserued paine for sinne as though there were any paine that were not deserued for sinne it is no reason For an empirike healeth by vertue of his medicines oftentimes though he know not the cause of the sickenes and so should the priest by laying to his plaister if he had any such but none euer recouered sodainlie by the Popes pardon or the priests power therefore it is a fained for gerie
not of merite or deserte Therefore there is no shadow for Popish pardons to shroude themselues vnder the winges of the good workes of Saintes which are the fruites of faith to declare them to be iustified not anie cause by which in the sight of God they can appeare iust and much lesse be able to iustifie other ALLEN Would God euerie man could feele how happie a thing it is to dwell as brethren together in the house of God vnder the appointed Pastours of that familie in which onelie Gods fauour is euerlastinglie found that they might therewith be partakers of all their workes that feare God might haue some sense and taste of that holie ointment of Gods spirite and gift of his grace that first was vpon the head of this householde our Master Christ Iesus and then dropped downe abundantly to his beard euen to the verie beard of Aaren whereby as S. Augustine saith the holie Apostles be signified and by them is ishued downe to the homme of Christes coate and imbrued all the borders of his garments that euerie one of the felowship might receiue benefite and feele the verdure thereof Quoniam 〈◊〉 mandauit Dominus benedictionem vitam vsque in seculum For in this happie felowship onlie our Lord bestoweth his manifold blessinges and life for euermore Amen FVLKE Who so looketh for sense from anie other fountaine or beginning then from the head alone shall feele no more then a stone But who so thorough faith is become a liuelie member of the mystical body of Christ by the operation of his holie spirite shall vndoubtedlie haue a moste sweete feeling of that moste happie spirituall coniunction of himselfe first vnto the heade which is Christ then vnto his bodie which is the Church and maie cheerefullie sing with Dauid Beholde how good and pleasant a thing it is that breethren dwel together But such is the abundance of grace and vertue in the head Christ that he seeketh not for merite or desert in himselfe or in anie of his fellow members although he receiue the gracious ointment of spirituall doctrine as S. Augustine doth expound it flowing from Christ to his Apostles and from them into all parts of his Church by which he is not taught to trust in himselfe or to depend vpon other mens merits or pardons but to repose the wholl hope of his saluation deliuerance from the wrath of God in the merites and satisfaction of Iesus Christ his heade towhome with the father and the holy ghost be euerlasting praise of our redemption reconciliation saluation glorification in his holie Church and felowship of Saints throughout all generations world without ende Amen God be praysed for euer AN APOLOGIE OF THE PROFESSORS OF THE GOSPEL IN FRAVNCE AGAINST THE RAILING DECLAMATION OF PEter Frarine a Louanian turned into English by Iohn Fowler Written by William Fulke AN APOLOGIE AGAINST THE RAILING DECLAMATION OF PETER FRARINE IT is pitie that the president of the Quodlibeticall disputations of Louane had no more discretion then to propounde in steede of exercises of learning a question perteining to the estate and doeings of other people with whome neither the speaker nor the hearers had any thing to doe neither were hable by knowledge of their affaires to discearne the cause nor by authoritie of their place to decide the controuersie But seeing they are disposed otherwise then wise men woulde be to be curious in a foraine common wealth and Fowler hath fantafied that the same also may apperteine to England which in Flaunders was de claimed against Fraunce Let vs see what Peter Frarine bringeth which may concerne the comon cause of religion where in they of France against whome he hath shot his bolt doe agree with vs in England First he saith as moste wicked persons they haue disturbed religion and peace A grieuous accusation But where is the proofe The question of religion he leaueth to be handled of others the deciding whereof neuerthelesse would purge the persons accused for the most part of the other crime of disturbance of peace Well the respōdent is not to be blamed that standeth vpon that question which according to the custome of the schoole was propounded to be the argument of his talke at that time And therefore he wil open declare first that there was no cause or iust occasion why these men should rise and make insurrection Then that they tooke weapon in hand without authoritie contrarie to law and in dispite of all Magistrates and Rulers Last and finallie that they vsed themselues to cruellie handled their sworde to bloodelie to the greatest dammage hindrance and losse that euer was felt in Christendome These are the diuisions of the circle with in which the orator hath inclosed himselfe But al these points so farre as they concerne the troubles in France are fullie and directlie confuted by all the edictes of pacification giuen forth to the knowledge of the world by Charles the ninth and Henrie the third Kings of Fraunce in which they haue alwaies acknowledged that the Protestants vpon iust cause with sufficient authoritie and in their seruice and to their honour haue put them selues in armes and done whatsoeuer the necessitie of warre lawfullie taken in hande hath inforced them to doe Then iudge whether against the publike testimonie of two Kings whome the matter moste concerned and that more then once or twise repeted I need to stand in the cōfutation of Peter Frarines petty priuate declamation Notwithstanding although I haue with one hatchet hewen a sunder the wholle stoke of this rayling oration yet I will not spare to brattell out the bowes and branches thereof in answering to euerie particular quarrell and cauil of the same There was not anie good or reasonable cause saith he why the founders and brokers of this new Gospell should be driuen to put them-selues in armes against the Catholikes See how the vaine declaimer which refused before to handle the question of religion now taketh vpon him most arrogantlie to decide the same For if the Protestantes be founders and brokers of a new Gospell and the Papistes be good Catholikes there is no cause why they should once open their mouthes against the Papistes much lesse arme them-selues as he said they did against the Catholikes But if this matter pertaine to the question of religion the debating whereof is not presentlie intended let vs pardon him these preiudiciall tearmes as well now as hereafter and consider onelie what reasons he bringeth to prooue his purpose No lawes ought to be chaunged with out great cause least of all the lawes of religion So farre we both agree but there is great cause to change lawes ofreligion when Antichristes decrees haue displaced the lawes of God the onelie rule of true religion Yet saith he