are not blind may see the confusion and deceit in themselves that they would perswade them they may see in us and we have not broken our selves as they say falsly of us against any stone nor can any stone we war against in them break us being but such as are to be removed out of Gods Vineyard Isai 5. 2. they adde W. and F. If Christ be made manifest to take away sin then they in whom he is made manifest are not to have sin in them so long as they are in this life and if he that is born of God cannot sin nor yield up to sin then he is not a sinner but clear and perfect from sin Rep. We deny these inferences the latter we have spoken to and disproved above to the former we say I'ts not their duty to have sin as their phrase may seem to imply Nor do we say it is their duty but their infirmity even as to be weak and mortall is not their duty but their burthen but if by are to have sin in them they mean they have or will have sin in them so long as they are in this life we deny that inference till they prove that Christ was manifested to take away sin so as to take it wholly out of the nature of man in some of the particular persons in this life and that too absolutely infalibly we are not to build our faith upon their inferences but upon Gods sayings and God by his Apostle saith not Christ was manifested to take away sin therefore in us is no sin as their Inference imports therefore their Inference is denied by us nor slumble we much less do we break our selves at that stone They adde Whosoever sinneth hath neither seen Christ nor known him now they that affirm that the Saints or they that be born of God are sinners they might as well say that the Saints have neither seen Christ nor known him Rep. True if by saying they are sinners they mean they be in their sins and live in their sins he that so sinneth hath neither seen him nor known him but to be in sin and to have sin in men to live in sin and to have sailings or be overtaken with faults as Gal. 6. 1. Are very different things and in such sense he that saies the Saints are sinners that is have sin in them and in some things offend doth not all one as to say they have not seen or known Christ a man may be a sinner by having sin in him and yet not sin as Rom. 7. 20. Paul did not the evil yet saies of whom namely of sinners I am the chief by your inference Paul might have said he neither had seen Christ nor known him and Isaiah might have said I a man of polluted lips therefore mine eyes never see the Lord of hosts whereas he sayes the contrary for mine eyes have seen the King the Lord of hosts which he spoke of Christ when he saw his glory Isa 6. 5. Joh. 12 41. See Reader how there runs a constant streame of mistake in all their writings To those phrases He that is born of God cannot sin we said it 's no more then to say that a man acted of God cannot therein sin To this they say It 's no more then to say that a man acted of God cannot sin in being acted of God or he that doth righteousness doth not sin in so doing Rep. Yes it 's some thing more viz. That mens sinnings are not of God nor can be and so that they that sin do not do righteousness nor are born or acted of God thereunto contrary to many that pretend that whatever they do they are led of God thereunto even then when they sin and to that purpose I was told by one whether it be true I know not that some of the Quakers should say that what ever they do after they are believers or born of God in their sense they cannot sin in it the Apostle Argues the root from the fruit as in James 1. 13. Let no man say when he is tempted I am tempted of God for God is not tempted with evill nor tempts he any man 's but a man is tempted when led away by his own lusts c. As for reserving an accusation against him that 's born of God as they charge us it 's answered before we accuse not whom God justifies nor contradict we what John saith that He that doth righteousness is righteous as God is righteous for he saith not he that doth righteousness is as righteous as God is righteous in whom there is no sin similitude there is but not perfect equality yea therefore is righteous as Christ is righteous not because there is no sin in him but because Christ is made to him of God his righteousness and in him he is righteous as Christ is righteousnot in himself through Christ as ighteous as Christ is in respect of being without sin they adde See here how they have accused the Apostle Paul I. H. and T. M. words are these yea in 1 Tim. 1. 15. He saith he was then when an Apostle the chief of sinners Rep. Here again they say falsely of us unless to say what the Apostle said of himself be to accuse him that the Apostle even when an Apostle said not I was but I am the chief namely of sinners see the Scripture quoted by us nor follows it as they imply that because the same Apostle in 1 Tim. 1. 12. Sayes that Christ counted him faithfull and put him into the Ministry that we might as well say he that is faithful to Christ is the chief of sinners no it only follows that he that said he was counted faithfull by Christ also even then acknowledged himself the chief of sinners and that 's true unless they can blot out the words of Scripture and prove them false read else and see if he that in verse 12. Saith that Christ counted him faithfull c. Sayes not verse 15. Christ came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the chief is it we that said thus of Paul or Paul that said thus of himself let all men judge or can they deny that Paul said of himself what we say he did and when we say he said it surely no but they say when as it is said Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief and saith he had obtained mercy now doth it not follow that Paul was one of the chief or greatest sinners but he was one of the chiefest sinners that was saved by Christ who saveth his people from their fins and doth not suffer them to remain the greatest sinners when they are saved from sin Rep. To this their glosse we say doth Paul say of whom I was the chief or of whom I am the chief of his obtaining mercy he saith in the time past I obtained mercy but of his being the chief of sinners that Christ came to
save he saith not in the time past I was but in the time present I am the chief For though he did not sin so grosly as before yet he was still the same sinner or sinfull man that Christ came to save yea and might possibly account every small neglect or failing a greater sin now then his greatest sins before because sensible now of his more ingagement to Christ for his having shewed him such favour a smaller offence against greater knowledge and mercy may be greater then a greater sin against less knowledge and mercy however what he said of Paul we proved and prove yet from the Text that is that he said of himself even then when an Apostle that then in the present tense he was a chief sinner if he said falsely of himself then was he therein a sinner if true then have not we said falsely of Paul nor accused him W. F. They say As for the Scriptures we bring 1 Joh. 1. 8 9 10. and Jam. 3. 1 2. These prove not that we would have them that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life they did not preach up sin and imperfection to remain in this liâ—e as they say we do for both James and Joh. exhort them otherwise for said James let patience have her perfect work that you may be perfect and intire wanting nothing James 1. 4. And John said if we walk in the light as he is in the iight we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin 1 Joh. 1. 7. and Chap. 2. 1. My little children these things have I writ unto you that yee sin not and if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father so he did not include them all as to remain sinners for they were all sinners while they were not cleansed by the blood of Christ Rep. 1. That these Scriptures prove not that the Saints were not perfectly freed from sin in this life it 's but their saying so for are they perfectly freed from sin as to the being of it in them that have it as these say they had and David saith no man living and sure men are living while they are in this life is so free from sin as to be justified if God enter into judgement with them Psal 143. 2. And as for preaching up sin and imperfection that is falsely and slanderously said of us do we preach them up because we say they remain sure then David preacht them up when he said as above 2 James and John exhort to the contrary they say is this a good argument or a piece of sophistry John and James exhorted against sin therefore they did not sin is it not as good to say God commands all men every where to Repent therefore no man is impenitont all do repent James said let patience have its perfect work that ye may be perfect c. Therefore it seems they were not yet perfect nor intire but wanted something why else would he have so exhorted them Nor doth that prove they ever were so perfect and intire as to have no sin in them while here seeing Asa was perfect all his dayes yet had sin and sinned 2 Chron. 15. 17. and 16. 7. 10. 12. Do the Apostles say let no sin be in you any where Men are perfect and intire and want nothing when they have all things that may further them to their glorifying God here in their generation though they be not perfectly possest of all things they are capable of attaining hereafter may they not as well say men may have all their happiness and glory here before their decease the resurrection and whatever they may have in the world to come because James saith that ye may be perfect and intire wanting nothing Again can patience be said to have its perfect work in any so long as it hath any further exercise for it and hath it not something further till death be over 3. To Johns saying What need of cleansing from all sin where is no sin to be cleansed from He saith not it hath cleansed us already but cleanseth us what cleanseth now finds something to be cleansed from and doth not the Apostle plainly say so much when he immediatly adds If we say we have no sin we deceive our selves let all judge how these Quakers and the Apostles cross one the other They say because it cleanseth us from all sin those that it so cleanseth have no sin the Apostle says immediately after that saying If we say we have no sin we deceiâ—e our selves doth not prove these men to be deceived and so to deceive others seeing they are of such as say so 4. What made them stop in their next proof at we have an Advocate when the Apostle adds and be is the propitiation for our sins they see the words our sins mentioned there and that scared them from the quoting it so far Oh do not their Consciences accuse them as juglers and deceivers in this Argument and that they are afraid of the light it shines so full against them 5. And how follows their Conclusion then So then he did not include them all as to remain sinners c. Whom did he exclude seeing the blood of Christ cleanseth them that have fellowship with God and had not the Apostles so by their own confession yet they say our sins and if we say we have no sin even we that have fellowship with God we deceive our selves But they ask W. and F. What one sin or sins we can lay to Paul or James or Johns charge or to any of them that they were not perfectly freed from sin before their decease let them prove some sin say they of us which was not destroyed in any of those before their decease and who can lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect let them speak out and answer directly or for ever be silent from pleading for sin or accusing the righteous as they have done Rep. It is enough that we beleeve Paul and James and John that they had sin and did in many things all offend though we cannot name their particular offences as it is to believe multitudes to have died though we know not of what particular diseases would it not be a fine argument to say prove of what particular diseases Ezra and Nehemiah and Esther died or else be for ever silent of accusing them to have been mortall That in many things they all offended we believe because James tells us so but what were their many offences we know not because they tell us not we can tell some sins these men are guilty of if they had asked us namely of lying deceit guile sophistry taking up a reproach against their neighbour as they do in the conclusion of their Book Thomas Moore Sen. But what John and James in particular were guilty of besides naturall infirmity we cannot tell because the Holy Ghost hath not told us nor do we
given and broken for us and so alwayes to be remembered and fed upon by us Luke 22. 19. 1 Cor. 11 24. John 6. 5â— Again by his Blood as distinguished from his flesh is meant that blood of his Crosse which was shed for us for the Remission of sins Col â— 14. 20. Mat. 26. 28. Not only nor so directly his being sometime partakers of material and mortal blood in that body of his flesh that is included in the forementioned sence of his flesh as distinguished from his blood and when mentioned together with it such blood being in and with his flesh all the dayes of his mortallity untill his death in which it was so fully shed forth and powered out that water followed but by his blood as distinct from his flesh is directly meant his humbling himself to that death in the finishing of his sufferings wherein that blood in which was his natural life in the flesh as of man was shed and so therein his Soul or Life in the flesh powered out yeilded up and laid down for our sins that were caused to meet together upon him that so he might by means of that his death in the flesh take his Life again in the Power of God and live for ever in the Glory of his Father even in that raised body of his flesh And this is very usual in the Scripture by blood to signifie the shedding of blood to Death or the natural and bodily death by any other means so Abels death by Cain called his blood Gen. 4. 10. with Heb. 12. 24. So Naboths death by stoning called his blood 2 Kings 9. 2â— generally the Martyrdom and death of the Servants of God for his sake 2 Kings 9. 7. Deut. 32. 43. Psal 72. 14. with Psal 116. 15. Yea the natural or bodily Death however it come on a man is called his blood Psal 30. 9. Heb. 12. 4. So also that by Christs own blood the blood of his Crosse by which peace was made Redemption obtained and so by which he entered into Heaven it self and so by the Spirituall sprinkling of which in the Preaching of the Crosse he purgeth the conscience is meant his Death his shedding of his blood his once suffiring even to the death of the Crosse his being put to death in the flesh see it in the foreceited Scriptures Col. 1. 14 20. Mat. 26. 28. with Phil. 2. 8. 1 Pet. 2. 24 and 3. 18. so also in Heb 9. 2. 14. with ver 15 16. 22. 26. Again Secondly By the distinct mention of his flesh and blood is signified some distinct considerations of the ends and powerfull efficacies of his own suffering in that body of his flesh for our sins As 1. For making peace and atonement with God for our sins in which we have all sinned in the disobedience of one and in which we are from thence become altogether filthy and as such justly banished and dead at Law and so it s said he gave his flesh for the life of the World and by suffering the judgement of this World and being made a Curse for us he hath abolished death obtained a Redemption and release of mankinde from under the power of that judgement that came on all in and by the first man Adam and so from the curse of the Law to be under his dispose and judgement by whom the Kingdom of God is brought unto us that through him we might be saved As the offence of one was unto all to condemnation so the Righteousnesse of one in laying down his Life that he might take it again is unto all to Justification of Life from under the power of the first death and banishment that they may not perish therein or be held out from God thereby but that they might live to him that dyed for them and rose again Rom. 5. 18. 2 Cor. 5. 1â— 15. 19. Col. 1. 20. John 6. 51. and 12. 31 32. Gal. 3. 13. 11. His shedding of his blood laying down his Life or powering out his Soul unto death for our sins was also to obtaine into himself for us a better life yea better then that we lost in the first Adam even Eternal Life Yea all fulnesse of all things pertaining to life and Godlinesse even the fulnesse of the Godhead bodily that of his fulnesse we might receive And so the immeasurable fulnesse of that Holy and Eternal Spirit to rest upon him in that body in which he so suffered that he should Teach sinners in the way and guide the meek in Judgement Yea further he hath by his blood or by means of that his death which was for the Redemption of the Transgressions under the first Testament obtained plentious and Eternal Redemption even the forgivenesse of such sins as are after the similitude of Adams transgression he hath received power in the name of the Father and as the fruit of his sufferings to take away such sins by his dayly appearing in the presence of God for us and so all such gifts as may serve for the good of the Rebellious while it is to day for forbearing and renewing mercies to them that yet through him they might be saved and that he might be just and the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus even from such sins yea from all things from which they could not be justified by the Law of Moses And so he is a Saviour from the wrath to come being now by means of his death a Mediator and propitiation for such sins as deserve it John 17. 4 5. 1 John 5. 11. Heb. 9. 12. Col. 1. 14. 19. and 2. 9. Acts 2. 33. Psal 68. 18 19. with Ephes 4. 8. 10. Heb. 9. 15. 1 Thes 1. 10. 1 John 2. 2. He was bruised wounded and put to death in the body of his flesh for our transgressions that through death he might abolish death in his Resurrection and make such peace and healing for us that through him we might be delivered and saved that were all our life time through fear of death subject to bondage Yea therefore also he shed his blood and powered out his Soul unto death that he might by vertue thereof obtaine and receive into himself a better even Eternal life for us with all such gifts for men yea for the Rebellious also as was needful that yet while it is to day they might be brought back to God and that he might be able to save to the utmost them that come to God by him 2. This his flesh and his blood was evidenced to be meat indeed and drink indeed for men spiritually to feed upon by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead and his offering up his spotlesse body a Ransom or price of Redemption once for all as being made perfect through sufferings and his being accepted and set down on the Right hand of God and Glorified with the Fathers own self Immeasurebly filled with all gifts in the man for men as before we have shewed all as the fruit of
and 16. 31 32 33. Ephes 3. 6. 9. The truth of which they was also before instructed to witnesse as in this their following Ministrations even in receiving the little Children or Infants that were brought to them in his Name as the price of his Blood and subjects of the gracious Kingdom of God brought to us by him Mark 9. 37. and 10. 13 14. with Luke 18. 15 16. Yet had not they the Light of the knowledge of God in their hearts or capacity to understand or perceive the shinings forth of it in the Face of Christ so that Light and capacity to such understanding in every of them to whom their Preaching came or witnesse reached nor in the real being of the thing witnessed otherwise then by Faith in any But further he faith 2. That as by the Gospels being Preached in Creatures may be meant its being witnessed in by and through them to others so as by Gods making use of them to man-ward as witnesses for him and of him and his things to men in such a sence he grants and asserts that the Gospel is Preached by God through Christ in every Creature under Heaven without exception even in all his works of Creation and Providence as Rom. 1. 20. For so the Gospel of the Grace of God which is his Glory to man-ward is declared and shewed forth to men that it may be seen and understood by them in and by the things that are made and preserved for them and to them by and through Christ as the Heavens the Firmament the Sun Moon and Stars Psal 19. 1. 6. and Psal 8. Yea all his works in and over all which his Mercy and Truth to man-ward is witnessed Psal 145. 9 10. 15. and Psal 136. and 148. His preserving man and other Creatures for his use and so his giving Rain from Heaven and fruitful seasons c His patience and bounty to sinners yea his forbearance and long suffering to rebellious sinners Psal 36. 5 6. and 68. 18 19 20. Acts 14. 16 17. Mat. 5. 45. with Luke 6. 35. Rom. 2. 4. 2 Pet. 3. 9. 15. Though of men his Saints do onely truly blesse him with the Mouth or Tongue and from the Heart where the understanding and knowledge of his Goodnesse is received and precious Yet also all his works do and more Gloriously shall praise him he never left himself without witnesse in them to make known to the Sons of men his mighty Acts and the Glorious Majesty of his Kingdom Yea so wonderful is he in working he knows how to make the wrath of man which of it self works not the Righteousnesse of God yet turn to his Praise But what is this to their purpose What makes this for proving such Spiritual Light as aforesaid in every man more then in every beast or plant Do these men suppose that every thing that may be a witnesse for God unto men hath the understanding of the witnesse they bear or of the thing witnessed or Light and capacity to such understanding in them Surely when God opened the mouth of an Asse she spake more truly and to purpose then these men Yet who will say she had in her the understanding of the warning and reproof God gave to Balaam therein or light and capacity thereto Numb 22. 28. 30. Or that the Pillar of the Stones Gen. 31. 45. 48. 52. had in them the understanding or light of the Covenant of which they were a witnesse or that all the things that are made as the Sun shinning the Rain falling c. have the light or understanding in them of the things witnessed in them to man-ward and that may be clearly seen and understood by them Doubtlesse they are brutish that would so infer But it is no strange thing for men that have no Faith in Christ but are void of Judgement concerning that to be also unreasonable or absurd 2 Thes 3. 2. Nor for such as are seeking after and professing to be wise in themselves to become most foolish Rom. 1. 22 23. 1 Cor. 1. 22 23. Thus have we answered in simplicity and plainnesse and not with hidden things of dishonesty but by a plain manifestation of the Truth in the words of Truth have declared our mind and meaning in our words That others when they read may understand our knowledge in the mysteries of Christ According to our measure as 2 Cor. 1. 2 13. 2. 17. 4. 1 2. Ephs 3. 4. And have been the larger for the helpfulnesse of such as will read and consider our Answers Desiring them to search the Scriptures whether these things be so And so far as any in reading and by searching and comparing the Scriptures may be helped to understand the things that we have written to be contained in and confirmed by the words of Truth let them so receive them as the Word of God and not of man And if in any thing they find we speak not according to that word let them refuse it and shew us in love by evidence of Scripture our mistake and we shall thankfully accept it for we dare not make our selves of the number or compare our selves with some that commend themselves c. See 2 Cor. 10. 12 13. for not he that commendeth himself but whom the Lord commendeth is approved verse 18. But let none be either over-hasty to believe every word before he find it contained and confirmed in the words of our Lord Jesus and in the Doctrine which is according to godlinesse nor yet to speak evil of the things he knows not That is if he cannot yet see it to be according to that word already delivered in the Law and Testimony and yet neither can be thereby satisfied that it is not according to it or that the lip of knowledge is not in it let him suspend his judgement and still wait in the believing mindfulnesse of the great things in the Doctrine of Christ for further understanding for so its meet to be said unto God what I see not teach thou me Nor have we in our answers to these queries or in any of our dealings with these men walked according to any other Rule or done by them otherwise then we would that men should do by us That is we have not declared and protested against any of their corrupt principles as evil and Antichristian further then we have been fully assured by the word of God that they are such as may be seen by our shewing them thereby to be such for so such instructions as have not the lip of knowledge in them but do cause to erre from the words of knowledge they may be by the light of the Lord known and discerned to be such and as such to be avoyded though the depths of Satan in them what their lip is and whitherto it tends their wayes being moveable and their Depths in the bottomlesse pit we cannot know them Pro. 5. 6. And therefore it is not our work to search or enquire into them Rev. 2. 24. 25. But in the holding fast that which we have heard from the beginning of the word of the beginning of Christ So soon as ever we perceive and know by the light thereof that the lip of knowledge is not in any Doctrine or spirit that comes to us That it lifts not up the Son of man by taking of his things and shewing them but tends to render him undesirable in what he hath done is doing and will do and to withdraw from the words of knowledge we are then presently to depart from such to cease to hear them and let them be to us as an accursed thing not further to be considered or pondered by us and so to warn others of them for with good words and fair speeches even such may easily deceive the hearts of the simple that in confidence of their own strength and out of an unstable mind and itching ear will be often tempting God and trying and pondering their moveable paths after they have perceived that the lip of knowledge is not in them but the Preaching of the personal sufferings of Christ foolishnesse to them We have therefore left this for an instruction and warning to others that the Truth of the Gospel may remain with believers and that such as are Ignorant and out of the way may be recovered And further we desire of the Reader if ever he see any reply to this of ours he would distinctly observe if they pervert not or alter our sayings by taking them in pieces and changing expressions to marr the sence if also they give not a go-by to the matters of the greatest weight and importance and onely lie at the catch to get some by-matters or words to strive snarle about which can tend to no profit but to the subverting the Reader from the things chiefly to be minded And in observance of this caution we doubt not but the Reader will be satisfied even from themselves concerning their Antichristian spirit without our adding any more by way of return to theirs Which though we will not bind our selves from yet we do not resolve to do though they should give us occasion by such sorry shifts and pretended answers as hitherto they have returned As for their slanders and revilings that follow we weigh them not but commit our selves to him that judgeth Righteously who will at that his second coming which they scoff at when He the Son of man shall appear in his Glory make their folly manifest to all men and bring to light the hidden things of darknesse Then it shall fully appear who have walked in craftinesse Pride Hypocrisie and hidden things of dishonesty in the mean time we are during his good pleasure in his Name and strength his witnesses against it all JOHN HORN THOMAS MOOR Senior THOMAS MOOR Junior FINIS