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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A02199 More vvorke for priests: or An answere to George Giffords pretended defence of read prayers and devised leitourgies comprised in the first part of his booke; intituled A short treatise against the Donatists of England: wherein is proved that the serving of God in such away [sic] and manner is a superstitious and vaine worship. Written by John Greenwood Christs faythfull martyr: here-unto is added by another man, many other argumers [sic] against stinted service and booke-prayer.; Answere to George Giffords pretended defence of read praiers and devised litourgies Greenwood, John, d. 1593. 1640 (1640) STC 12341; ESTC S103421 44,326 116

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some things we sinne all In which wordes I plainely reproved his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed anie idolatrie and that no idolater could be saued and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance weaknes and imperfection c. in Gods children and open professed obstinate idolatrie Yet this godles man would lay to my charge that I should call all men idolaters wheras I never used such a worde in all my writings But onlie answered his folly in this running out from the question they were his owne wordes that brought this upon his owne heade by concluding that if every sinne against the first table were idolatrie and no idolater could be saved then all are lost let the grosnes then be his and not mine And I leave it to the consideration of all men whether I may not say that they which transgresse the first or second Commandements do commit idolatrie without absurdity But saith he though it be so yet the Scripture calleth not the godly murtherers idolaters etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning I answere that therefore your former absurd cavilling where you said if we hold it idolatrie etc. is by your owne mouth fully answered But to avoyde this foile he hath an other evasion J thought saith he we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a church is to be condemned and forsaken which is defiled therwith Here againe you misreport me J never reasoned to that end in in this whole discourse but onlie laboured to shew all men this error of reading mens writings instead of praying that they might learne how to converse with God their owne Conscience in prayer And what mendes will you make for this slandering and defacing of the truth to all the world all that I desire is your repentance and amendement which God graunt unto you if you be his It followeth in your booke thus But seeing you confess that all men be Idolaters that is touching the remanents of sinne it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots etc. This worde idolaters must still be yours then I willinglie graunt that no man living is free from idolatrie concerning the reliques of sinne Also that no Church upon earth can be without spot upon earth So that now by your owne confession I pleade not for perfection in this life though the more we want the more we ought to endevour With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle and out of one mouth give contrarie sentence Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of untruthes was it possible I should bold al men idolaters some men without committing of sinne after regeneration especially to maintaine both such heresies as you give out Wel consider yourself before the Lord call you to accompt for defacing his truth and pleading for Baal I grant yea I were not of God if I should speake otherwise that the deare servants of God fall into most lothsome sinnes after regeneration that the riches of Gods mercie might appeare in their repentance through the worke of his grace Then you reason thus if ther be alwaies spottes and imperfectnes in the true Church upon earth then all your Arguments you bring against the Church of England are of no force except you will maintaine a perfection Mine answere is I will not meddle with your Ch. to prove it a false church in this treatise but refer you to Mr Barrowes refutation of Mr Gifford him that handleth that part of your booke Yet I must tell you your argument is verie simple For after the same manner you might reason thus If ther be no true Church without spottes upon earth then the Church of Rome is the true Ch. for it hath manie spottes and you all Scismatiques Againe you assume the matter you should prove It will be proved against you that you have not Ecclesiam a people called fourth of the world to the obedience of Christ Then that the spottes of your Church are Egyptian ulcers incurable running botches But I purposed not to deale with your Church onelie my mind is to shew the unlawfulnes of this reading and imposing mens writings upon mens Consciences in stead of true praying Of which sinne the Lord give you and this whole land grace to repent that so men may learne more ferventlie to call upon God The first Argument against read Prayer c. No Apocrypha must be brought into the publique assemblies for there onelie GODS worde and lively voyce of his owne graces must be hearde in the publique assemblies But mens writings and the reading of them over for prayer are Apocrypha therefore may not be brought into the publique assemblies GEORGE GIFFORD First touching the Proposition No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publique assemblies What can be more false Apocrypha is opposed against Canonicall If nothing may be brought into the publique assemblies but Canonicall Scripture then the Sermons and prayers of Pastors are to be banished c. IOHN GREENWODS Answer IN the answere of this you will needes oppose against both Propositions yet have nothing to say if not to royle the doctrines delivered with your feete least others should drinke therof The part of a wise man had beene to lay his hand on his mouth In the first Proposition you would oppose the worde Apocripha against the lively voyce of Gods graces when you see I said onlie that no Apocripha might be brought into the publique assemblies And further to explane my minde least you should willingly finde such a cavill I added this reason for there only Gods worde the lively voyces of his graces are to be heard where I acknowledged those livelie voyces to be Gods ordinance yet nether to be called Apocrypha nor Canonical How can you say th̄e I would have these or that these are banished if all Apocrypha writings be banished the publique assemblies Yet as I told you I take Apocrypha to be all writings but the Canonicall Authenique Scriptures But say you then I will exclude the Paraphrases upon the Scriptures and the Psalmes in Metre etc. Affirme you them to be Apocrypha as you doe and can do no other I wil through Gods grace prove they ought not to be brought into the publique assemblies First no mans writings are given to the Church by testimonie of Gods spirit we are onelie commaunded to heare what the spirit saith therefore though mens writings be permitted to be read privatelie of them that will and therupon called Apocrypha that is hidden they may not be brought into the publique assemblies Secondly no mans writings are without errour and imperfections therfore not to be brought into the publique assemblies The Church is the pillar of truth Thirdlie the Church is builded upon the foundation of the Prophets and the Apostles Christ Iesus being the cheif corner stone and not upon mens writings Therefore mens writings may not be brought into the