all my force that fayth and Churche that I finde in déede receyued from the Apostles and will extirpate with all my force that faith and Churche that is degenerate from it What if the King saye thus master Saunders trowe you the Bishop hearing this whiche notwithstanding is but righte and reason and the King euen of the Bishop enforced thereto will he accepte the offer No master Saundess the Bishoppe will crie oute and so will you that the matter shall not goe thus and that the King may not doe this howsoeuer it stande him vpon But you will appeale from him vnto your selues as Iudges Whiche when the King shall heare will 〈◊〉 not iudge this a madde appeale and suspecte your cause the worsse and thinke that you playnely woulde abuse him And so to kéepe his promise made vnto you turne his force iustly agaynst you Haue you not heere made a rodde for your owne tayle if the Prince be but indifferent and not too muche either of simplicitie or dastardie abused by you And thus by the righteous iudgement of God your owne tyrannie is the cause of your owne plague and that by the seife 〈◊〉 meanes whereby you woulde vniustly haue hampered the Prince he hathe iustly hampered you I pray God all Christian Princes woulde once take these iuste occasions to examine well but euen those dueties and tyties that you put vnto them and woulde but minister iustice to you euen as you haâ—… forced them thereto And thus muche M. Saunders for your presupposed examples betwéene these Kings and Bishops â–ª Let vs nowe beholde howe you procéede vpon them How therfore said the Lord in Daniel kingdome and power and the mighte of kingdome that is vnder all the heauen shall be giuen to the people of the Saincts of the Hyest VVhose kingdome is an euerlasting kingdome and all Kings or powers shal serue and obey him Howe saide the Lorde as it is in Esay vnto his Churche The sonnes of straungers shall buylde thy walles and the Kinges of them shal minister vnto thee and their sonnes that haue broughte thee lowe shal come and bowe them selues to thee and all those that spake euill of thee shall worshippe the steppes of thy feete Howe shall the worde of Christe be true wherein hee sayde too â–ª his Disciples hee that despyseth you despyseth mee or that that hee sayde too Peter Thou arte Peter and vppon thys Rocke wyll I buylde â–ª my Churche and the gaâ—… of Hell shall not preuayle agaynst it You are a waster Master Saunders to make suche lauishe of youre prooues so impertinently or rather you are wrester too applye them so falsely For the Kyng that héere refuseth the Bishoppes conditions offereth hym selfe moste freely too all obedience that is héere mentioned in offering himselfe to acknowledge the Christian saythe As for the Lordes sentence in Daniel â–ª prophecying of the immortal glorie that after the iudgemeÌ„t of Christ shal be giuen to the Saintes of the most highest and of the obedieÌ„ce to Christes euerlasting kingdome these are other matters are so wrested of you to the state of this lyfe that it will breede you some suspition of being a Millenarie heretike except you say you ment it spiritually But then it toucheth not the kings polytike estate But howsoeuer you meane it you doe great iniurie to kings and shew no lesse arrogancie in your selues to applie that vnto you that is spoken of the Saincts of the highest This kingdom and power that he speaketh of is theirs yea kings so well as any other be partakers of it and you claime it allonly to your Priestly and Bishoply power whereas it is rather to be doubted that ye shall haue no parts at all therof But your portion in the kingdome of proude Lucifer that not onely apply this to your selues but also the glorie and kingdome due to Christe of the obedience to whiche Daniell playnely speaketh and you wrest it to the obedience of your Bishoppes As for this obedience to Christe the king did offer to yelde it in offering to acknowledge the Christian fayth But your Bishop was not content therewith And you to helpe your bishop and to dismay the king make the bishops demaunde suche a necessarie thing that you aske howe dyd the Lorde speake in Daniell except kinges should offer to renounce their kingdomes vnto priestes What master Saunders waxe you so sawcie with God to argue him of a lye but the saying of God is true and you are lyers and the king may still keepe his kingdome from your Clutches Your seconde texte is a couple of textes out of Esay but no lesse wrested than the other to make Princes stoupe to Prelates and kisse the grounde they goe vpon to giue Bishops Kings treâ—…ures and dominions and make kings to waite on Priestes In déeâ—…e on this wife your Pope did proudly wrest the Scripture when he troad on the Emperors necke when he turned downe hiâ—… Disdeme with his foote when he made him daunce attendance and blowe his nailes at his gate when he made him hold his â—…lurrop wheÌ„ he made him leade his horse when he made him kisse hys gowtie I should say his golden toa But this was more than Neroes pride is most farre from gods liking from Christs humilitie from the Apostles steppes and cleane from the Prophetes meaning The Prophet speaketh of much honor and riches to be giuen but to whom tibi o thee Who was this the Priest or Bishope haue you any moe shée Bishops or Pope Ioanes yet M. Saunders for the wordes of the Prophet begin thus Surge splendida esto I trow you will not saye this was a Bishop No M. Saunders it was euen the wife of Christ the Church of God whome he calleth Sion that the Prophet speaketh vnto These texts therfore being spoken to the Churche that is to all the faithfull people of whom kings themselues are part so well as any other it is malapartly dâ—…ne of you Maister Saunders to ascribe it only to your Bishops Howbeit this arrogating the name of the Church to your selues is not so saâ—…cis but your missunderstanding of this description in a literall sense being spoken of a mysticall estate is no lesse grosse than full of errors The whole chapter hath many suche proâ—…ises of shyning of glory of glittering of riches of waters of Camels of coltes of golde of frank insence of shepe of ramines of doâ—…es of ships of buildings of walles of gates of beeches of Pines of boxe of sucking of milke of brasse of stones of Iron of light of the Sunne of the Moone of plantes of trées such other worldly things whereby be discribeth the beautie and florishing estate of the Charche according to the manner of the Hebrewes phrases and the capacitie of the Iewes that were moued by suche worldly things Nowe commeth Maister Saunders and picketh me out two sentences and sets them togither being in the text a sunder That
the kings office is a distinct function from the Priests neither impugneth the byshops assertion nor the princes supreme gouernement Conclude this M. Stap. agaynst them that confounde their offices The other parte of your conclusion that the kinges office medleth onely with the common weale by which ye meane onely the ciuill policie and hath nothing to do with any matters perteyning to God or euer ye shall directly proue it on this or any other place in the whole scripture it will finde ye somewhat more to do than ye suppose it will. As for the kinges intermedling with Gods matters your selfe before haue graunted a king may intermedle and be no breaker nor enimie to Gods order And that euen this king Iosaphat vsed a care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters that he reformed religion and that godly christian Princes may at this day do the lyke This your selfe haue already graunted And is all this no intermedling dothe it not rather proue he intermedled that as supreme gouernour thereof yea euen ouer the Priestes them selues to whome that charge of doing those matters is committed and yet he neither breaketh the order appoynted by God nor is become an enimie to Gods holy ordinance Ye say it was Gods ordinance and appoyntment what followeth it was not therefore the Princes ordinance and appoyntment also as though these were contrary and coulde not stande togither the one vnder the other the ordinance of God and the ordinance of the king Put case the Priest had ordeined it might it not haue béene Gods ordinance too but the priest ordeined it not but the prince Ergo the Prince immediatly ordeyning it vnder God sheweth that he hath an immediate power vnder him euen aboue the Priests Of whome are these words so precisely spoken he appoynted he commaunded he sayde it shall be so thus shall ye do c was it the Prince or was it the Priest Did Amarias commaunde Iehosaphat or Iehosaphat commaunde Amarias and all the other Priestes and Leuites who is the supreme gouernour of the twaine the commaunder and appointer or he that is commaunded and appoynted Untill therefore that ye can proue that the high Priest Amarias commaunded and appoynted vnto King Iosaphat these things and that the king did not commaund nor appoynt these things to the Priest and Bishop euerie man that hath any vnderstanding will easily perceyue and iudge that the Prince was the Priestes supreme gouernour next vnder God both ouer his person and ouer the thing also wherein he appoynted and commaunded him But sée your constant dealing in this matter â–ª before you made the gouernance of the thing to be more than the gouernance of the person And here as though it were a greater matter to gouerne the person you say If he take vpon him the supreme gouernment thereof euen ouer the Priests themselues to whom the charge is committed Againe before you sayde that Iosaphats dealings were rather with persons than with matters ecclesiasticall But now ye exempt the persons to saying If he take vpon him the supreme gouernment euen ouer the Priests themselues c. he passeth the boundes of his office And thus although for a while ye would shift off the matter by séeming to graunt somwhat to bleare the reader withall yet in the ende contrary to your former graunt ye eaâ—…e your worde and debarre the Prince of all both for matter and persons to But thankes be to God this insample of Iosaphat is so plaine that all these fetches and shiftes that ye are dryuen vnto can so little any way improue his supreme gouernment that euery thing which ye bring agaynst it maketh more and more for it Such is the force of the truth and so doth falsehoode in his owne trippe still ouerturne it selfe The. 16. Diuision THe Bishop alleaging the example of king Ezechias fiâ—…st sheweth what great commendation for his godly gouernment in reforming religion the scripture attributeth vnto him Secondly how he called togither the clergie telleth them their faults declareth to them the wrath of God exhorteth commaundeth them to do their dueties in clensing themselues in making their sacrifices and appointeth their offices prouideth them conuenient portions to liue by and that in all things the clergie and the people obeyed the Kings commaundement which argueth his supreme gouernment ouer all ecclesiasticall persons and causes To this master Stapleton aunswereth first on the olde warrant of his good masters wordes by reiecting all this as insufficient Here is nothing brought in by you sayth he or before by the Apologie as M. Dorman and M. D. Harding do well aunswere that forceth the surmised soueraigntie in King Ezechias but that his power and authoritie was readie and seruiceable as it ought to be in all prynces for the execution of things spirituall before determined not by him as supreme head newly established How well or yll master Stap. your masters haue aunswered this obiection and are aunswered againe is apparant and easie to be iudged by viewing both their answeres Howbeit vnto their wel doings for feare they should not fal out so well as ye pretend you haue done well also to better their answeres with the surplusage of your new stuffe And if it were graunted you M. Stap. that those things which Ezechias did had not bene by him as supreme heade newly established would it folow therevpon that they were not by him as supreme head or gouernour newly reformed neyther hauing bene some of them of olde established before by the priests negligence hauing long time bene corrupted But what letteth why they may not also be sayde to haue bene by him newly established being quite decayed before And so sayth Lyra of the ioy at the great passeouer that long time had ceassed Propter quod quado Ezechias eam renouaeuit fuit maior exultatio quòd noua placent delectant For the which cause wheÌ„ Ezechias renued it there was greater reioising for bicause new things do please and delight So that to them it was a newe establishing But was the brasen serpent pulled downe and destroyed euer before as other Images and hill aulters had béene was the feast of the passeouer euer chaunged before was that order of collations euer ordeyned before was this the Leuites doings of the Priests partes euer done before So that at the least some of these doings were by him newly established and neuer done before but as the necessitie of the time was then so were they commaunded to be done by him and well allowed of God. Yet say you they were not newly established by him as supreme hed but his power authoritâ—…e was ready seruiceable for the execution of things spiritual before determined But if these things were not before determined I pray you master Stapleton whose executioner was he then neither the priests nor the prophets had before determined that he should do or commaund to be done these things
StapletoÌ„ and al the residue But howsoeuer they dodge out with it it wil not serue M. SauÌ„ders at this time For although it be true that Salomon had also the gift of prophesie yet Salomon did not this as Prophet but as king And in his blessing expressely prayeth for the raigne of his posteritie Neither neede M. Saunders run to this shift for euen Lyra saith et Benedixit c. and he blessed al the congregation not with that blessing that pertained to the priestly office but by wishing good things vnto the people and rendring thanks to God for his good gifts receaued saying blessed be the Lord god c. And in the ende of the Chapter the people blesse him also but this declareth not their superioritie although the kings solemne action declares him their better in his royall office for the establishing whereof he prayeth The like shifte ye make for Moyses and Dauid that they were also prophetes But what say ye to Saule that blessed Dauid 1. Reg. 26. he was in dede Dauids superior and he had béen among the prophetes too whereof the prouerbe arose num et Saul inter Prophetas is Saule also among the Prophetes But trow ye he blessed him as a Prophete and yet in blessing him although he himselfe were accursed he foretold the truth that Dauid shoulde doe great things What saye ye to Iosue that blessed Caleb Iosue 14. yea he blessed two tribes and a halfe of RubeÌ„ Gad and Manasses If ye except that he was a prophete too what say ye to Iehu that blessed Iehonadab and yet no prophet to Raguel that blessed Tobias and yet no prophete to Ozias the gouernour of Lethulia and Achior the Ammanite that blessed Iudith and yet no Prophetes nor all of them superiors and therefore this argumente serueth not to inferre gouernement neither alwayes to inferre superioritie neither is this shifte alwayes true that all the blesse are priests or prophetes Althoughe in priests whome Saint Paule speaketh of it argue a superioritie of their function as before is graunted But Maister Saunders hauing gotten hold on this word blessing as though he had founde a newe vaine procéedeth saying And truely when God had rather haue had his people to haue bene blessed of the priests of the Leuiticall kinde and of the prophetes than to haue bene gouerned of a king yet the people asked a King against the will of God which petition God in dede permitted to be fulfilled howbeit he sawe it dyd tend to the contempt of his name whervpoÌ„ he said to Samuel they haue not cast thee away but me that I should not raigne ouer them For although God raigned ouer his people euen when the kings gouerned them yet he had seemed to raigne in better signification and plainer if the people had obeyed any prophet or priest or Leuite Now that Maister Saunders former proues will fadge no better he séeketh oute all the wayes he can to deface the royall estate of a Kyngs authoritie in comparison of his Priests gouernment He sayth God had rather haue had his people ben blessed of the priests and the prophets thaÌ„ gouerned of kings dispitefully making these two to be meÌ„braopposita contraries the one to other The gouernment of kings â–ª and the blessing of Priestes and Prophets As though the people were berefte of the Priestes and Prophetes blessings bicause not they but kings did gouerne them But if the people had still the Priestes and Prophets blessings when Kings gouerned them so well as before then is this opposition no lesse false than malicious And that they had stil the Priests and Prophets blessing is apparant But what meanes M. Saunders to name onely their blessings â–ª did the Priestes and Prophetes nought but blesse would he by so swéete a name reuoke vs to the Popes blessings but he telleth vs else where that the Pope hath cur â–ª sed vs and no maruell for the chiefest parte of his power lyeth in cursing But he loueth cursing and his cursing shall light vpon himselfe and God dothe turne his cursings into blessings But troweth he the Priests Prophets then did curse and ban as the Pope dothe nowe by cause the kings were the supreme gouernours â–ª or that the supreme gouernment belonged first to them and from them was translated to the Kings Howbeit M. Saunders sayth not so but the the priestes and prophets blessed the people But what is that to gouernement the controuersie is of the priestes gouernement and the question here is driuen to this whether God had rather haue hadde the priestes and the prophetes to gouerne the Israelites than the kings Nowe M. Saunders although this be his onely meaning dothe not put nor dare put the question thus as in plain speach he ought to do For knowing that the state then of the Churches gouernement was not so much of the priestes and prophetes as of other ciuil Magistrates called the Iudges it had theÌ„ appeared he had said little to his purpose But as though all the state before of the kings had ben of the priestes and prophets he couereth his falsehoode with this fairâ—… mantell of the priests and prophets Blessinges and mentioneth not their gouernemente whyche is the thing hee shooteth at â–ª Whereas all that time from Iosue the firste Iudge to Saule the fyrste King among so many Iudges we reade but of one Prieste whiche was Helie of one Prophete which was Samuel that gouerned the Church of God And yet these neither gouerned it in respect of priesthood or prophecying or blessing but in respecte of that ciuill authoritie whereby they were called Iudges Thus that estate that he pretendes maketh the more for him maketh as much against him as the state of Kings that followed For whether God had rather haue had the one or the other it still proueth God had rather haue had the ciuil Magistrate were he iudge or king to be the supreme gouernor although at that time the supreme gouernment hapned whiche it seldome dyd to a person ecclesiasticall But God altered this estate and brought it to Kings Neyther dare I saye as Master Saunders very boldly saythe that God had rather haue had the other estate For if he wold he myght haue kepte it still Voluntati eius quis resistit who resisteth his will but it pleased God the state should bée altered and so it was Master Saunders vrgeth this that God was muche offended I graunt he was vnderstanding it not so grossely as Master Saunders séemes to doe but like a Diuine so as we admit in God no perturbation nor change of mynde for God had purposed the chaunge before and liked well of his forepurpose But his displeasure was agaynste the sinne of the people who distrusting of Gods sufficient helpe in the former estate inordinately dyd craue a King and not that hée eyther mislyked the estate of a King or thoughte it the worsser
estate being higher and so high that God reserued it to himselfe they distrusted the former estate as inferior and desired a visible king among them So that this which you wold draw to the dispraise maketh in deede more to the praise of a kings estate Neither do we denie Gregories sentence in respect of the spirituall prelacie but the question nowe is of the outwarde gouernment of Priests or Princes Which Gregorie not onely acknowledged with most humble obedience calling the Emperour and kings of Italy his Lords soueraignes and lowly bowed himselfe vnto them but also that more is so much detested the claime that the Pope makes now that he calleth the vser of it a fore runner of Antichrist And where ye haue this shift that he condemnes such titles of vniuersal Prelacie in the sea of other Bishoppes but not of his owne this is a false shifte he condemnes it in hys owne Bishopricke of Rome so well as in anye other For where Eulogius the Patriarke of Alexandria had saluted him with suche stiles he answereth Ecce in praefatione c. Beholde in the preface of the Epistle the which you directed vnto me who forbad it ye thought to set in the word of a proud calling naming me vniuersall Pope the which I beseeche you that your most curteous holinesse wil no more do so Bicause that which is giueÌ„ to another more thaÌ„ reaâ—…oÌ„ requireth is subtracted from your selues I seeke not to be aduaunced in titles but in maners Neither counte I that honour wherein I know my brethren leese their honour For my honour is the honour of the vniuersall Churche My honour is the sounde force of my brethren TheÌ„ am I honored wheÌ„ to euery particular person the honor that is due vnto him is not denyed For if your holynesse call me vniuersall Pope he denyeth himselfe to be in that he calleth me vniuersall but God forbid this Let those wordes goe that puffe vp truth and wounde charitie Thus sayth Gregorie and this is cited euen in your owne decrées not onely about the word Vniuersall Pope but vpon these titles Princeps SacerdotuÌ„ vel summus sacerdos the chief of the priests or the chiefe or high priest or any other such titles So farre was this Pope Gregorie then from the pride of the late Pope Gregories that haue bene since for he both acknowledged himselfe to be but equall to other Bishoppes and him selfe and all other Byshops to be vnder their naturall Princes The testimonie therefore of Pope Gregorie is but wrested to vrge suche superioritie of Byshoppes as shoulde deâ—… their Princes supreme gouernmente Now M. Saunders hauing thus as he thinketh fully confyrmed his proues for the superioritie of Priests in the olde Testamente abouâ—… Kings gathereth altogether and knites vp hys conclusion saying VVherefore sithe the institution of Priests proceeded from the good wyll of God and from his free mercie but God graunted not the dignitie of a king but in his anger at the peoples petition lesser consideration is worthily had of the king than of the people both bicause he is made king onely for the peoples cause and also onely at the peoples petition But the Priests although they be made for the peoples cause yet neither onely for the peoples cause but muche more for the honour of Christe Neither onelye at the petition of the people were they made but rather of the free mercie of God and that for that eternall predestination of God whiche was ordayned aboute oure saluation in the tyme appoynted to be brought to effect Ye make your comparison and your conclusion hang illâ—…oredly together Maister Saunders your comparison is of the Princes and the Priests estate and ye conclude that therefore lesse consideration is worthily to be had of the king than of the people How chaunce ye say not of the king than of the Priests but belike ye thoughte that that was oute of controuersie the Priests were so farre aboue the people that much lesse consideration is to be had of the people than of the priests But maister Saunders your beast sacrificed said not so nor your authors Philo and Iosephus but sayde he was made equall to the people But say you the king was made for the peoples cause I graunt ye maister Saunders and was not the priest so too yea doe not your selfe sayâ—… he was made for the peoples cause also if this then argue an inferiorship as in déede it doth in respecte of the ende doth it not argue the priest to be inferior too and lesser consideration to be had of him than of the people that is to say of the Church of God But saye you the King vvas made onely for the peoples cause and the priest was made for the honor of Christ also for the eternall predestination of God vvhich vvas ordained about saluation in time appoynted to be broughte to effect And I pray ye Maister Saunders was not this another cause of making the King also dyd not his estate make to the honour of Christe and represent Christ so well as the Priestes estate was not he called Christus Domini The Lordes annoynted so well as the Priest yea and better to then by your leaue For Christ was not onely figured in the kings estate so well as in the Priests but also toke his humanitie of the race of the kings and not of the Priests and so is called the sonne of Dauid not the sonne of Aaron the king of the Ievves not the priest of the Ievves And though in respect of his priesthoode he was the onely sacrifice of our redemption whereby our sinnes are taken away Christus mortuus est pro peccatis nostris Christ dyed for our sinnes yet notwithstanding resurrexit pro iustificatione nostra he rose for ouâ—…â—…ustification by his kingdome by his power by his victorie by his resurrection by his ascention by his sitting at the right hand of his father in al which his kingdome is contained so that it comprehendeth both our PredestinatioÌ„ and our saluation too And therefore we are taught by Christ to saye let thy kingdome come and not let thy priesthoode come And not onely all our estate in this life and the life to come but all the grace and mercie and iustice and power and glory of God is attributed not so muche to the priesthoode as to the kingdome of Christ. But ye saye God was angrie with the peoples request when he made the kings estate I graunt you Maister Saunders and tolde ye the reason before out of Lyra and the texte is plaine bicause God him selfe was king vnto them which doth not abase but so much the more aduaunce it But now when Maister Saunders hath thus extolled the Priests gouernmeÌ„t of the old TestameÌ„t he abaseth theÌ„ again by comparison of Bishops of the newe Testament saying Sith therefore the Bishops of the Churche of Christ are of no lesse dignitie than
and the power of the pastor is another althoughe it oughte to haue iudgement concurring with it Neither ascribe wée iudgement alike to the pastors and the sheepe although in this spirituall kinde of sheepe some of them haue more sounde and perfect iudgement than their pastors To the minor I answere it is not simply true neyther for in one sense not onely the pastors them selues are lyke wyse sheepe but also the Princes them selues are pastors In the former sense euery faythfull Christian is a sheepe vâ—…der Christe the onely shepehearde and must heare his voyce And so the Prieste is a shéepe also or else he shall neuer be in the folde of the Churche nor placed at the righte hande of Christe In the other sense not onely the Prince is suche a Pastor as Homer calleth Agaâ—…emnon and rules and féedes the body and so the Priestes are his sheepe as well as other subiectes but also in protection setting foorth of Gods worde throughout his Dominions he is their pastor too in appoynting the pastors to féede the sheepe onely in Gods pastures And in this sense we ascribe supreme Pastorship vnto him ouer the Priest also Althoughe in the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes the Prieste agayne is his superiour pastor and the Prince is but his sheepe But master Saunders replies But if they be counted as Pastors I aske whence they proue it that Christe gaue them suche power for what haue they that they haue not receiued but Christ as he tooke not awaye or diminished the auncient power of kinges graunted by the lawe of Nations so neither annexed he vnto them a newe power of feeding his sheepe Moreouer the auncient power of kinges althoughe it be of God yet is it of him by the meane of the lawe of Nations and the Ciuill and not by any especiall and chiefe constitution of the Gospell as is before declared If therefore Kinges and polytike Magistrates haue any power in causes of faythe either they receiued it from the lawe naturall of Nations and of the Ciuill or of the lawe of God that is reuealed to the Churche But to beginne with the later member firste by the lawe of God that is reuealed to the Churche no suche thing is graunted to kinges For nothing else is reuealed in the newe Testament concerning Princes than that that is Cesars shoulde be giuen to Cesar that tributes shoulde be payde that kings should be prayed for that bothe the King and the gouernours sent from him should be obeyed and finally that al power proceedeth froÌ„ God that euery Magistrate beares not the sworde in vaine but in that matter is to be acknowledged to be Gods minister Moreouer none of these places do bid the king by name dispose of the Churche of Christ or in causes of fayth to arrogate ought to him self The argument in briefe is thus If princes be counted as pastors they haue suche power giuen them But they haue no suche power giuen them Ergo They are not counted as pastors I answere firste to the maior rightly vnderstoode it is true that if princes may be counted as pastors the authoritie is giuen them But it is truely to be vnder stoode by distinction of pastorall authoritie Secondly to the minor that Princes haue no pastorall authoritie giuen them it is false Neither doe his proues proue it If any were giuen them it was giuen them either by the lawe of Nations or by the Ciuill or by Christ in the new Testament But it is giuen them by neither of these three Ergo they haue none giuen them To the maior I aunswere it is false Bycause he leaueth oute the olde Testament whiche he confessed hym selfe before was a figure of the pastorship of the new Testament here he leaues out the old Testament quite Which had he named as he ought to haue done he should both haue séene Princes to haue bene ordeyned immediately of God as Moyses Iosue all the Iudges Saule Dauid and Salomon and not by the meane of the lawe of Nations nor the lawe Ciuill comming betweene And he should haue â—…ounde that the Prince of Gods people is appoynted namely to be a pastor or shepheard vnto them Num. 27. Moses spake to the Lorde saying Let the Lorde God of the spirite of all fleshe appoynt a man ouer the congregation who maye go oute and in before them and leade them out and in that the congregation of the Lorde be not as sheepe without a Pastor 2. Reg. 5. All the Tribes of Israell came to Dauid vnto Hebron and sayde thus Beholde we are thy bones and thy fleshe and in times past when Saule was our king thou leddest Israell in and out and the Lorde hath sayde vnto thee thou shalt feed my people Israel In which words Dauid was made their pastor or shepherd which was reseÌ„bled before in his kéeping of natural shéepe as he confesseth of him self He chose Dauid also his seruant and toke him away froÌ„ the sheepe foldes as he was following the Ewes great with yong ones he tooke him that he might leade Iacob his people Israel his inheritance So he fed theÌ„ with a faythfull and true heart and ruled theÌ„ prudently with al his power Which worde of féeding belonging to a pastor God ascribeth also to al the Iudges saying â–ª VVhen I commaunded the Iudges to feede my people And in 1. Chro. 11. And the Lorde sayde vnto thee thou shalt feede my people of Israell and be the prince c. And in the. 3. booke of the Kings wheÌ„ Micheas described in his vision the kings destruction he sayth I saw Israel dispersed on the mountaynes as sheepe without a pastor and the Lorde sayde these haue no master c. By these and many other places it appeareth that God appoynted the Prince to be a pastor in his office but his office as is proued at large before stretchetâ—… to the setting â—…oorthe the lawe of God and gouernement of the priests so well as the laytie therefore his pastorshippe stretcheth so farre also although not to the taking vpon him the office of the spirituall pastor Secondly I aunswere to the minor it is false For not only by the lawe of Nations and Ciuill a politike pastorshippe is committed to the Prince but also a Christian pastorshippe to a christian Prince euen in the newe Testament also Which as it is comprehended in these sentences that M. Saunders here sets down so are there more sentences that declare the Princes pastorship But sayth he none of these do bidde the king by name to dispose of the Church of Christ or in causes of fayth arrogate ought to him selfe This is a wrong conclusion M. Saunders from iudgement pastorship to inferre disposing arrogating As for arrogating neither the Prince nor the Priest ought to do it nor the Prince attemptes it althoughe the Priestes haue and do attempte it Likewyse for disposing if you meane
of teÌ„poral kingâ—… None is so simple to moue such a fond obiectioÌ„ But the obiection is whether the one be coincident to the other Whether a Bishop to whoÌ„ properly by his Bishoply office 〈◊〉 kingdome belongeth not may take vpon him the gouernment of a kingdome that properly by his kingly office beloÌ„geth to a king This iâ—… the question And you say properly he can not I say muche 〈◊〉 vnproperly But properly or vnproperly Christ hath cleaâ—… debarred it Vos autem non 〈◊〉 But you shall not do so These words strike dead master Sand â–ª therfore your vnproper distinctioÌ„ may go pike him But say you when they subiected them to the Christian fayth the kings promised no longer to raygne the people promised to obey no power further than the christian fayth wil suffer therefore if the kings power or the peoples obedience swarue from this promise â–ª the king may be deposed and the people can choose no otherâ—… â—…ll good promises so 〈◊〉 as we may are to be kept inâ—…iolate master Saunders especially the promise made to Christ to kéepe his fayth and religion incorrupted And would to God all men did kéepe it chiefly the Popishe Byshops that haue in so many poyntes swarued from the fayth and corrupted Christes religion yet haue made their promise to keepe it so well as others And if they shoulde be deposed for breaking their promise your Pope should be deposed first to begin withal and all his Prelates Priestes should followe And althoughe it were to be wyshed they were in déede all deposed and those onely that repent them admitted and reformed to the true ministerie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet can not the like be wished for in Princes that they likewise breaking their promises shoulde be deposed by their Bishops For althoughe we haue in Gods worde an euident example for the Prince to depose the Bishoppe vpon his demerites as Salomon deposed Abiathar yet haue we not the like example for the Bishop to depose the Prince For in the authoritie of deposing the Prince is higher than the Bishop Although it is not to be wished the Princes should attempt without great and euident proofe to depose any As for the Bishop to take vpon him to depose his Prince béeing his sworne subiecte is bothe agaynst his owne fayth and homageâ—… and further than his authoritie reacheth The Bishops and Priests had great iniurie offred them of king Saule yet they neuer cursed him nor attempted to depose him No Dauid although he were him selfe also the Lords anoynted would neuer oppugne Saule or rebel agaynst him but only stode at his defence and when he had Saule in his daunger he would neither kill him nor take him nor depose him but let him go and committed his quarell to the Lorde bicause Saule was not onely likewise the Lordes annoynted but then in lawfull possession of the crowne And therefoâ—…e Dauid woulde neuer take it from him althoughe he had good title to it Muche lesse may the Bishops that haue no title to it attempte to pull downe their Prince They may yea they oughte to exhorte their Prince hauing broken his promise and rebukâ—… him and lay before him the terrible threates of God they may pray for him â–ª but they can not lay handes vpon him nor curse him nor reuile him nor take armes agaynst him nor inâ—…ite other to rebellion to forsake him and to set vpon him beeing their Liege and Soueraigne I am not ignoraunt that Princes haue bene deposed of their subiects in diuers couÌ„treys and diuers times in Englande And the like casualtie may chaunce in euery age and kingdome vnto princes But for those things by what title they were done God knoweth I will not descant nowe but this I affirme in generall that in respect of the people those things were more defâ—…cto than de â—…ure â–ª although in respecte of Gods iustice or of the Princes chastisement that â—…ad deserued before God so muche and more it was de â—…ure too But the subiects can neuer iustifie such deedes to be done howe euer they be borne out when they be done nor such extraordinary deedes past may be drawne to ordinarie examples of deedes to come but be spectacles for princes in beholding suche tragedies past to learne for the present to â—…umble them selues and to leuell their life to come the better And althâ—…gh many of these deposings of princes haue â—…ot come so 〈◊〉 by the vâ—…ce of their vnnatural subiects as by the practises of the Popish bishops as the ensamples of king Iohn in Englande of Childerike in Fraunce the Henries and other in Germanie and in other countreys do testifie yet were these dealings of thâ—…se Bishops not allowable but detestable yeâ—… though it were graunted that those princeâ—… haâ—… deserued them brokeÌ„ their faith and promise â–ª Which if it were a good faith promise was no doubt an euill breacâ—…e of it anâ—… God will take the vengeance of it it belongeth not is the people nor to the Bishops Vengeance is mine sayth God and I will render it He sayth not my Bishops shall but I will render it Yea but saytâ—… M. 〈◊〉 the Prince himselfe hathe made a promise to raigne no longer than the fayth and religion of Christ alloweth I aunswere if he maâ—… this prâ—…yse it is a good promyse and he is bouâ—… in conscience to stand therâ—… But what if â—…e wickedly breake his promise shall the Bishope rebell â–ª and breake their promise too is there no remedie but 〈◊〉 pellere to driue out one mischiefe with another â–ª Nay saith S. Paule â–ª Non faciamus malum vt inde eueniatbâ—…nuÌ„ Let vs not do euill that good may come of iâ—… â–ª Let vs notâ—…bell against the Prince that the Prince may be reformed Quorum damnatio iusta est If the Bishops do so they heape Iâ—…st damnation vpoÌ„ themselues Were the Prince in déede such a one as the Bishops pretend if it be not rather their malicious pretence as God hath giuen them no such violent meanes to reforme him which were to make him rather worse than better and to bring all in a broyle and themselues besides their sin in daunger â–ª so God hath giuen theÌ„ another meane if they could see it of preaching his word vnto the Prince which is another maner of sword and more fitte for them to fight withall than to pull the temporall sworde oute of the Princes hands In dede so did Cardinall Columne when the Pope said he woulde pull of his Cardinals hatte he soul the Pope word if he pulled off his Cardinals hatto he would put on a helmet and pull downe his triple Crowne These Prelates haue little skill of the spirituall swâ—…rde although they crake of it and of S. Petâ—…rs keyes but they neither know how to vse them nor what they be that thinke they consist in deposing Princes and fighting against them But M.
Church of Christe either in making lavves for it or in taking armes for it or in giuing his life for his brethren and much more in yelding or giuing vp his kingdome for his saluation If any man come to me saith Christ and hate not his father and mother and vvife and children and brethren and sisters yea and his life also he can not be my disciple But any kingdome ought not be deerer to a king than his ovvn life Therfore sith euery Christian ought to giue his life for Christe hovve muche more ought any king rather to hate his kingdome than that he shoulde forsake christ But and if any man that commeth to Christ thinke vvith himselfe otherwise than thus he doth nothing but deceiue himselfe For in that that Christ hath set this lavve in his Gospell that no man shoulde come to him that is to say enter into his Church but he that should be readie rather to forsake al the goods of this vvorld thā leaue the faith of Christ then in that that any Christian king is made a Christian he promiseth not only to fosake his kingdome but his life also rather than hee shoulde bring offence to his brethren If therefore the same king shall so sinne against the Christian faithe that by no meanes he vvill be amended he may by the ministers of Christ be depriued of his kingdome Not that all temporall kingdomes are vnder the ministers of Christe but bycause the kingdomes of all Christian Princes by the nature of the thing that is done are made subiecte to them so ofte as it is expedient for the saluation of the people that the kingdomes should either this vvay or that vvay be translated Here is a faire tale M. Saunders but a foule conclusion The drift of all is this Byshops maye translate kingdomes either this vvaye or that vvaye as they shall thinke expedient for the peoples saluation Howe say you M. Saunders is not this your conclusion you make exception that all kingdoms be not vnder you ▪ as though some were as indéede you haue gotten too many vnder you Where Christe saith you shall haue none vnder you but you will néedes haue some Yea by this rule you wil haue al christian kingdomes vnder you For howe are they not vnder you if they maye be translated this vvay or that vvay and giuen to this man or to that man as ofte as you shall thinke it expedient are not you then the Kings of Kings when you may depose and sette vp Kings and alter cleane topsie turuie which you call translating the state of euery kingdome at your pleasures Indéede Master Saunders the Byshop sayde not thus muche before to the King that woulde be baptized Well say you it was but his negligence or forgetfulnesse And what if he sayde nothing heereof yet he ment it yea and the Kyng himselfe promised it Where finde you that Master Saunders Yes say you he promysed that and more too vvhen he made himselfe a member of Chryste and desired of Chryste to be saued For in that doing vvill he nill he this promise is contained that hee shall minister to Christe and to the Churche of Chryste eyther in making Lavves for it or in taking Armes for it or in giuing his life for his brethren and muche more giuing vp his kingdome for their saluation You iumble many thinges togyther Master Saunders And yet goe to we graunte you all this the King promised thus muche but not vvill he nill he in spite of his bearde he did it vvillingly in offering to acknovvledge the faythe of Chryste wherein he promised to minister to Chryste and to the Church of Christ as you say But whether you be Christ or no I thinke the King will make no question But perhaps he may moue the questiō whether you be the Church yea any parte of the Churche of Christ or no. And if he finde you to be whiche I doubte me will be an harde matter to persuade the king if it be wel examined well then the King shall minister vnto you But howe shal he minister as your slaue and be at commaundemente I thinke Maister Saunders you can not picke that out of his promise Nay your selfe expounde the contrarie saying that he shall make Lavves for the Churche If you then bée the Churche as ye pretende to be he muste make Lavves for you But the Lavve maker to any body by your owne saying and by good reason is aboue the parties for whome he maketh Lavves and therefore the king not onely in the ruling of you but euen in his ministring vnto you is aboue you Nowe if he finde you not to be of the Churche then muste he make lavves and minister iustice againste you for vsurping that title and deceiuing of his people But say you he must giue his life for his brethren much more his kingdome for their saluation You say well Master Sanders he ought to doe so if the forsaking his kingdome or his life woulde be his brethrens saluation But you put a hard case and not commonly séene for I thinke the peoples getting of saluation lyeth not vpon the kings losing his life or kingdome but onely vpon Iesus Chryste If you speake of other accidentes and occasions twentie to one the people are oftener in more danger by the kings death or deposition than by his life or gouernemente excepte he be a very tyrant and indéede his life and gouernement may doe much hurte and it were better he were fayre buried or did resigne than he should gouerne Gods people But God knoweth best what he hath to doe and can take him awaye when he will or can suffer him to scourge and exercise his people wyth affliction The chaffe and stubble wyll burne with fyre but the Golde is purifyed the electe are tryed and are not damned by his tyrannie nor they consent vnto his wickednesse nor yet they reuolt from his obedience nor rebell and depose him but possesse their soules in pacience and crye to God to succor them Nowe as it falleth out thus in the worste case that you can put that no Byshop nor other subiecte may depose his Soueraign so in a good Prince no such thing is to be feared And since it is to men vncertaine how the king will proue they iudge and hope the best bycause they knowe not the worst and extorte no such promise of him Much lesse ought they to make a rule that he shall resigne or suffer death whē the people will haue him and say his life or gouernmente hinders their saluation or when the Byshops shall say it is hurtfull to them then at the Byshops so saying the king must either lose his kingdome or his life this is a hard case M. Saunders for poore kings and trowe you this is contained in their promise Well say you Christ saide if any man come to me and hate not his father his mother his vvife his children yea his
power is giuen at the least to the chiefe pastor in these wordes Howe shall we beleeue it Maister Saunders sith these wordes neither say nor import any such matter that Peter to whom they were spoken is the chief pastor of the Church neither at the least nor at the most least of all that in these wordes these things are contained Christ saith to Peter feede my shepe â–ª you expounde these wordes that he gaue him power to take away Kings from their kingdomes and to set the people at libertie from their sworne obedience This is a proper feeding M. Saunders to giue them pappe with an hatchet as they say to spoyle Kings and sâ—…t their kingdomes in the vprores of rebellion â–ª Christ 〈◊〉 not his shepe on thâ—… fashion nor we reade that euer Peter 〈◊〉 them so but with the worde of God and with exhortatioÌ„ of obedience vnto Princes Peter fead the shéepe of Christ on this wise Be ye subiect to euery humaine creature for the Lordes sake whether to the King as excelling or to his rulers as those that are sent of him to the punishment of malefactors and to the prayse of them that do well for so is the will of god For doyng well you stoppe the mouthes of foolishe and ignorant men As free and yet not hauing libertie for a cloake of malice but as seruantes of god Honor all men loue brotherhood feare God honor the king Let seruants be subiect to the Lord with feare not only if they be good and gentle but if they be froward c. And so he entreth into an exhortation of pacience vnder wicked gouernors This is the féeding that Peter fead the shéepe of Christ withall neither did hâ—…uer depose any Magistrate or set at libertie any subiects or vsurpe any kingly dominion but dissuadeth the clergie from it As for the other sentence of authorizing Peter to bynde and lose is so farre from giuing him authoritie to bynde Princes in bondage and captiuitie making theÌ„ to lose their kingdomes and losing their subiectes from their bondage of subiection setting them at libertie to rebell and chose another that if Maister Saunders were not too too shamelesse he would neuer thus apply it And yet he saith we must beleue it â–ª that in this sentence also Peter hath this power gyuen him which neither Christ nor Peter vsed at any time but both of them flat denie it But why shoulde we beleeue this M. Saunders For say you if whatsoeuer Peter or Peters successor loseth in earth is also losed in heauen then verily when he loseth orderly the faithfull subiects from the obedience of a wicked King in earth the subiects are in heauen losed from the obedience of that king Besides if whatsoeuer Peters successor bindeth in earth be bound also in heauen then when soeuer the successor of Peter rightly and well commaundeth anye King to go from his Magistracie which being thus affected he vniustly holdeth or coÌ„mauÌ„deth him by whatsoeuer meanes he can to hinder another King that hindreth the faithful people from eternal life that he should not perishe in doyng wickedly that King is bounde also in heauen that is to saye before God and his Angels to obey the decree of the chiefe Bishop except he will haue his owne sinnes before God to be retained and not remitted Here is your Sampsons poste M. SauÌ„ders that you and your Pope builde vpon for his supremacie that he hath the keyes of heauen and hell vnder his belte but howe grossely and shamefully this spirituall power of bynding and losing consisting in preaching the word of God and pertaining only to the soule of the faithfull beleuer or the vnfaithfull refuser is applied to the body goods of men to be taken from them is wrested to coÌ„maunding of Kings to get theÌ„ packing from their kingdomes to bydding of subiectes take armes against their Princes to bidding of one King by whatsoeuer meanes he can by defying fighting and making warre by shéeding ChristiaÌ„ blood by violating peace by breaking leagues by wasting one anothers couÌ„tries to molest and persecute one another that all Princes nations are bound before God and his Angels to obey his bidding yea althoughe he were such a chiefe B. or the successor of Peter as he craketh is not is so horrible shameful a wresting of Christs saying so euident a contradiction to all other sayings in the scripture so open a gappe to the dissolution of all estates to bring all tumult confusion into the world yea this binding and losing were such a binding vp of all godlynesse and the verie losing of the deuill himself that it is maruaile that euer any Papist professing learning would be so grosse in this age of greater learning thus to expounde it Which exposition was neuer heard of by any godly father till Pope Gregorie 7. set it a broach and Pope Boniface 8. following him set all Christendome by the eares about it And nowe that all the worlde séeth the follie and wickednesse of it M. Saunders so unpudently would renue it But he hathe a shifting restrainte in this exposition to salue the matter When the Pope sayth he duely and orderly loseth the people from their obedience and when he well and rightly biddeth the king giue ouer his authoritie theÌ„ either of them are bound to obey his bidding True Maister Saunders when he doth these things duly and orderly well and rightly theÌ„ it shall be graunted you But how can he do that well and rightly duely and orderly that is most euil and against all dutie right and order can a théefe steale well and rightly can such extreme wickednesse that passeth all priuate thefte and is the open breach of all due order be dulie and orderly done But belike M. SauÌ„ders thinketh if the Pope do it in his consistorie if he haue on his Cope and do it in his Pontificalibus if the belles be roong the candels put out then it is well and rightly duely and orderly done Such toyishe orders vseth the Pope to bleare the simple as though when it is done with booke bell candle it is done well and rightly duely and orderly but before God and his Angels in heauen and before all wise and godly learned meÌ„ in earth as these orders are mere ridiculous so these doyngs are most abhominable But nowe let vs heare his reason for this doyng For if whatsoeuer power any king hath he ought to conuert and applie that wholly to the honor of Christ then he that otherwise doth shall in the day of doome render an account of sin wheÌ„ euen that sword it selfe which in times paste he hath either draweÌ„ out against Christ or else he would not draw for Christ shall accuse him of disobedience If therfore we shall follow reasoÌ„ aright as the Minister of Christ ought not to coÌ„secrate him for Prince whom he seeth not to be a ChristiaÌ„ or a Catholike so neither ought
that 〈◊〉 both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the literal sense you would â–ª thus â–ª must straked If the matter of Christes parable of the Cockle growing togither with the wheate I graunt that we ought to auoyde such cohabitation as may conueniently be auoyded But such cohabitatioÌ„ as cannot be auoyded without the incurring of another greater sinne must not be denyed As the husband to denie câ—…habitation with his wife though he be faithfull and she an Iâ—…fidell yet if she will tarie and dwell with him he can not put hir away for â—…ir infidelitâ—…e Nor likewise can the faithful â–ª woman forsake the man thoughe he be an Infidell neyther can the childe denie his naturall obedience to his parentes cohabitation with theÌ„ though he be faithfull and they be Infidels Neither can the faithfull seruaunt denie his ciuill obedience and cohabitation with his Maister although his maister be an Infidell as were the most in S. Paules time and yet he would haue none denie cohabitation with their maisters no thoughe they were rough and cruell besides their infidelitie And shal the subiect then denie his politike cohabitation â–ª and ciâ—…ill obedience to his liege Soueraigne and lawfull Prince for pretence of diuersitie in religion Eightly â–ª I answere if you will néedes apply this separation of the Leper to a morall or mysticall signification yet serueth it not to the deposing of the person from his Câ—…ill estate or to his exelâ—…sion from a common weale but to hys exclusion of morall vertue or to his expulsion â—…ute of the 〈◊〉 of grace from beeing a â—…ber of the mysticall comâ—… weale whiche letteth not but that he maye remayne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nâ—…thly I answere your conclusion that you make for kingâ—… so well â—…s oâ—…h 〈◊〉 men fayleth â—…n this example of king Ozâ—…s â—…or neither was he deposed by y Priest or by any other man but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 king â–ª so long as he is of king Ozias â—…thly I answeâ—…e that al this 〈◊〉 â—…ere admitted maketh nothing against protestant Princes but it maketh much agaiÌ„st popish priests For if vnto all that bring into the Church straunge doctrine straked as it were with the spots of Lepry cohabitation must be denied Then the Pope and all your popish Priests being founde to bring into the Church other doctrine than God hath taught in his holy Scripture are to lie thrust out of Gods Churche if worse should not happen vnto you by the figure if you will go to figures of Nadab Abiu that offred straunge fire before the Lorde and were consumed with fire from heauen but beware you of a fire in hell And thus much to your figure of the Leprie for deposing Princes which if we denie you say as is your common saying we haue not our common senses But had you had your priuate senses when you made this argument you woulde haue béen better aduised ere euer you had made it common and had Printed it but you did but as other had done before for the argument before was common But what doe I reason sayth Maister Saunders Athalia the Mother of Ochozias murdered all the Kyngly seede excepte Ioas whome Iosaba had hidde in the house of the lord Moreouer Athalia raigned ouer the lande seuen yeares But in the seuenth yeare Ioiada the Byshop taking to him Centurions Captaynes and souldiors made a couenant with them and swore them in the house of the Lorde and shewed vnto them the kings sonne and gaue theÌ„ in charge what they should doe and brought out the son of the King and set the Crowne vpon him and the testimonie and made him King anoynted hym But Athalia when she sawe the King standing vpon the Tribunall according to the maner she cryed out treason treason But Ioiada the high Priest commaunded the Centurions and saide carie hir out without the boundes of the Temple And whosoeuer followeth hiâ—… let him be striken with the sworde And Athalia was killed in the Kyngs house Ioiada therefore made a couenant betweene the Lorde and the King and betweene the people And Ioas dyd that which was right before the Lorde all the dayes wherein Ioiada the Priest dyd teache hym Doe we not here playnely see the whole knowledge of the Kyngs cause to haue bene belonging towardes one high priest He calleth the souldiors Iudgeth the Queene that had ruled seuen yeares to haue raignedvniustly and commaunded hir both to be deposed and killed and in hir place dyd substitute Ioas to be King and subiected hym vnder the Lorde and placed hym aboue the people All which things sithe they were well done is it not nowe true according to the sentence of the diuine Scripture that the Byshop oughte to knowe of the causes of Kings and Emperours whether they be iuste or vniust For what so euer the Byshop in thys kynde doth whether he define the King to be deposed or to be placed he is no other than the Angell of the Lord out of whose lyppes as well Kyngs as priuate men oughte to requyre the lawe of the Lorde The hygh Priest is as it were a sequester as betweene the Lorde and the Kyng so betweene the Kyng and the People So whyle one Iudge in the Churche is ordayned bothe betweene Kings themselues sturred vp wyth mutuall contentions and also betweene them and theyr People infinite occasions of warres and tumults are cutte off Maister Saunders here firste asketh what he doth reason If he can not tell what he doth reason surely I know not But this I knowe that it was but a very weake reason and therefore belyke he was wearie of it and wyll returne agayne to vrge vs wyth example And here to knit vp the olde Testament he alleageth the example of Ioiada the high Priest for the kylling of Athalia and the substitutyng of Ioas to bée king But this example whiche beareth yet a face to come farre nerer to the purpose than any thyng spoken hetherto notwythstandyng if it be well considered is as farre from the purpose and as muche wrested vnto it as the other I omit that he still kepeth his old practise in iumbling together diuerse pieces of the scripture and not to set downe the text as it lyeth and yet he maketh a distinction of letter as though it were all the text Which and it were not his common vâ—…age of the scripture were the better to be borne withall and might be imputed to the â—…ters negligence as it often falleth out but in so often handling thus of the scripture it is not tollerable But to the example First I answere this pertayneth nothing to the questioÌ„ in hand for the deposing of a King. Here is no King deposed Here is an vsurper that had no righ so the kingdome killed And to your owne expositor Lyra saith vsurpauit sibi regnum Iuda prius describitur â—…uiusonodi vsurpatio She vsurped to hir selfe the kingdome of Iurie and this kinde of
Pope is the supreme head of the Church 36. a. Master Hooper was so answered by M. Feckenham c. 37. a. After all this your long trauaile wherein ye haue to the most vttred all your skill ye are so farre from full aunswering his scruples and stayes that they seeme plainly to be vnaunswerable and your selfe quite ouerborne and ouerthrowne and that by your owne arguments and inductions as we shall hereafter euidently declare 38. b. I referre mee to your scriptures fathers Councels practise of the Church that ye would seeme to rest vpon VVhereby neuerthelesse you your selfe shall take a shamefull foyle and fall VVherefore go on a Gods name and bring forth your euidences go on I say in Gods name master Horne and prosecute your plea stoutly 40. a. b. Nowe therefore go on master Horne and being at your first encountring ouerblowne and discomfited with your owne blast thinke well whether it is likely that ye shall hereafter bring agaynst your aduersarie any thing c. 42. a. VVee freely graunt you that Princes may sharply punishe teachers of false and superstitious religion c. for I say to you that you and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion 42. a. I trowe it will be harde for you to bring forth any act of parliament or any other conuenient and sufficient plea. 42. b. The olde ordinarie Latine glose I am right sure M. Horne it hath no such thing 42. b. His scripture c. reacheth nothing home to his pretensed purpose but rather infringeth and plaine marreth the same as I haue sayde and fully standeth on our side So I doubt nothing it will fare with his examples as Moses Iosue Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias Iosias And that they all come to short and are to weake to iustifie his assertion But here am I shrewdly encombred and in great doubt what to doe for I could make a short but a true aunswere that these ensamples are fully aunswered alreadie 43 a. This one aunswere might well serue for all the kings doings now following sauing I wil particularly descende to euery one and for euery one say somewhat Here I wish to encounter with master Nowell 45. a. Master Nowell fretteth fumeth with master Dorman who shall coole him well ynough I doubt not 49. a. Ye haue hitherto brought nothing effectuall c. the contrary is by vs auouched sufficiently proued c. bring forth that king that did not agnize one supreme hed c. ye haue not done it nor neuer shall doe it and if ye coulde shewe any it were not woorth the shewing c. what president haue ye shewed of any good king 53. b. That the Popishe religion is the vsuall religion a thousand yeares and vpwarde 53. b. VVhat euidence haue ye brought forth c. what can ye bring forth out of the olde testament to ayde and relieue your doings c. what can ye shewe c. what good induction can ye bring c. what good motiue can ye gather c. what thinke ye that ye can perswade vs c. are ye able suppose ye to name vs any one king c. O M. Horn your manifolde vntruthes are disciphered and vnbuckled ye are espied ye are espied I say well inough that ye come not by a thousande yeardes and more neare the marke Your bowe is to weake your armes to feeble to shoote with any your commendation at the marke yea if ye were as good an archer as were that famous Robin hoode or little Iohn VVell shift your bowe or at least wise your string Let the olde testament go and proceede to your other proufes VVherein we wil now see if ye can shoote any streighter for hitherto ye haue shotte al awrie and as a man may say like a blinde man see nowe to your selfe from henceforth that ye open your eyes and that ye haue a good eie and a good aime to the marke we haue set before you If not be ye assured we will make no curtesie eft soones to put ye in remembrance For hitherto ye haue nothing prooued that Princes ought which ye promised to proue c. 55. a. Answere the fortresse Master Horne annexed to Saint Bede if ye dare 55. b. Belike the worlde goeth verie hard with you 56. a. Ye shall anon heare of it 56. a. Master Feckenhams heresie is so secrete and priuie that Argus himselfe with all his eies shall neuer espie it no nor M. Horne himselfe let him prie neuer so narrowly 56. b. Ye haue heard of your auncestours before perhaps and that ◅ by me 56. b. I forbeare at this time of the residue of your noble progenitors hauing in other places as I noted before spoken largely of the same 57. b. Come forth once and cleare your selfe of this only obiection if ye can being so often pressed therewith 57. b. 58. a. Cleare your selfe if ye bee able I assure you M. Horne you and all your fellowes will neuer be able to auoide this one onely obiection 58. a. As I haue proued you your companions open and notable heretiks so shal I streight way purge M. Feck to be no Donatist or any heretike otherwise for any thing yet by you laid to his charge But now M. Horne beware your self c. beware I say for I suppose I will lay more pregnant matter in this behalfe to your their charge thā ye haue or possible can do to M. Feck or any other Catholike VVhereof I dare make any indifferent reader iudge If I should amplifie this matter at large it would rise to a prettie volume 58. a. Aunswere then to my third demaund in the fortresse annexed to Saint Bede 59. b. I shall trace him and smell him out well inough 60. b. Your great Canons come not nigh his hold by 1000. miles They will not beate downe a verie paper wall 62. a. Here might we euen by your owne rule crie out vpon you al as Apollinarians and Eutichians 63. a. And for my part master Horne that you may not thinke I haue now beene first so aduised vpon sight of your booke I haue forced that argument with many examples of godly Emperours and Princes in my Dedicatorie Epistle to the Queenes Maiestie before the translated Historie of the venerable Bede 65. b. VVe say that you are wicked deprauers of religion 65. b. VVe say ye are as great blasphemers as euer Christes Church had c. we say further that not only the general councel of Trent but the whole church hath condēned your opinions by general national coūcels many hūdred yeres since 65. I heare say master Fox is busie to set forth a fresh in print yet once againe his huge monstrous martirloge I will doe so much for him as minister him plentie of good stuffe I warrant you to set forth adorne at his next edition 66. b VVell I will bring ye as I thinke a substantiall and an ineuitable proofe 66. b. Though I graunt you all that ye haue
VVorcester 36. b. 37. a An Inuectiue against heresie that it openeth the truth 37. a A comparison of the ignoraunce of thâ—… greatest learned men among the Papists in king Henryes dayes and the cleare knowledge that the Louanists haue nâ—…we 38 a. b. Master Feckenham his repentaunce for confessing the Kings title of supremacie 38. b. A biâ—… quarell at the Bishop for calling this sentence of the Booke of Wisedome In 〈◊〉 ammam non introâ—…it sapientia A sentence of the holy ghost Whervpon he concludeth a discorde in the Protestants writing 39. a. Where he should replie 39. b. 40. a To the Bishops answere he aunswereth not a worde but séeketh starting holes out of another aunswere that he threapeth on the Bishop to haue made before to chalenge him thereby with falshood as being variable in his aunsweres and so aunswering nothing runneth quite from the matter In steade of aunswere in the Bishops argument out of Deut. 13. and. 17. he runneth to a néedelesse proufe that Heresie is a very Idoll And once againe that we haue no warrant by act of Parliament for mariage of ministers for oure doctrine of the Sacrament for our wrytinges and preachings 42. a. When he should aunswere in the ensample of Iosue he is in hand with M. D. Harding and the Apologie with M. Dorman and M. Nowell quarelling for ciphers in misquoting for 〈◊〉 maâ—…er Dâ—…rmans theâ—…tes for laye mens presumption to go before Priestes for altering religion at the conuocation 46. b. Challenging the Bishop for running at randon from the marke and willing the Reader to regarde the marke he setteth vp of purpose ix false markes nothing nere the issue in question betwene the Bishop and M. Feck and vnder pretence of those nine markes runneth himselfe at randon into aboue xix impertinent matters of the Iewes acknowledging one high Priest of altering religion of the auncientnesse of Poperie 53. b. of the Priests othe on their Priesthood of abandoning the Pope and general councels of the authoritie of the Scriptures of the determining heresies by them of foraigne authoritie of bestowing ecclesiastical liuings Of Bishops letters patents of restraining their iurisdiction of inhibiting from preaching of payment of tenthes and first fruites of the priuilege of the heathen priestes of Egypt of writing the Queenes title of Priestes receiuing the othe of exempting the nobilitie of a woman Prince and in the ende of all this of Robin Hood and little Iohn and bicause he shooteth at these markes he sayth he hath shot awrie like a blinde man. 54. a. b. 55. a. Where he shoulde directly aunswere to that wherewith master Feckenham is by the Bishop charged for refusing all the prooues of the olde Testament to play the part of a Donatist Master Stapleton snatcheth herevpon occasion to runne out from his matter and to gather togither first a great rabble partly of heresies partly of no heresies to charge vs withall and then trauayleth to heape vp a number of poynts labouring thereby to proue the Protestants to be Donatists medling by this occasion with euery matter that he thought he might enlarge his booke withall with sectes and diuisions with bragging of multitudes with viciousnesse of life of tying the Church to this or that place of corrupting the fathers of visions and myracles of vaunting of Councels of a generall Apostacie of beginning and continuance of doctrine and Bishops of complayning of good Princes and praysing of ill of defacing the Sacraments and incredible crueltie of the Emperours lawes and the holye Gospels of murthering others and themselues of false martyrs all which sauing his long discourse of thrée or foure pages agaynst master Foxes booke which I remitte to him to be answered is aunswered for his importunitie sake though much of it be more fullie aunswered by others and also quite extrauagant from the matter in hande 57. 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. Fol. 65. He chalengeth vs to be blasphemers he is in hande with contempt of the number of the sacraments with prouinciall and generall Councels with another fling at M. Foxes booke of Martyrs about the articles of Sir Thomas Hitton priest 〈◊〉 Sir Iohn Oldcastle Knight the Lorde of Cobham for putting of heretikes to death for compelling to receyue the fayth for manslaughter 66. a. b. Once againe he is in hande with his olde quarell of Images Idols and the Crosse. 68. b. Where he should aunswere to the Bishops allegations out of Nicephorus he letteth them all alone and medleth with other matters nothing to the purpose as with Michael Paleologus Emperour of Greece with thalenging the Grecians for heresies with the heresie of the holy ghost to proceede onely from the father and not from the sonne with the Councell at Lions with the accordment betwene the Grecians and the Latine Church with their reuolt from the same with the spite of the Greeke Bishops From thence he runneth to other matters rayling on the Authour of the Homelie agaynst Idolatrie for calling Michael â–ª Theodorus about his depriuing and funerals that the question of Images was not mooued at the Councell of Lions of the setting vp and continuance of Images in the Greeke Church From hence he runneth to quarelling about the names of Valence and Valentinian and of his and Theodosius his lawe agaynst the picture of the Crosse. Against Bishop Iewel for citing it out of Crinitus simplie as the same Crinitus doth Hereon he entreth into a generall inuectiue agaynst the reading of the Homelies nowe â—…et forth and falleth in praysing of the Homelies in the Popish Church 76. b. 77. a. In steade of aunswering to the Bishops argument out of Saint Paule and Chrysostomes allegation thereon he is in hande againe with master Foxe for setting forth the doyngs of Doctour VVesalian with the Bishop to be but a poore Clearke with the aduauncing of Bishop VVhite and Bishop Gardiner with chalenging the Bishop to be of the Grecians opinion agaynst the proceeding of the holye Ghost from the father and the sonne with the decaye of the Empyre of Greece with a comparison betwéene the decay of Hierusalem besieged at Easter by the Romaynes and the Captiuitie of Constantinople besieged at VVhitsontide by the Turkes with the poynting of Gods â—…ynger wyth the Realmes of Fraunce Scotlande Germanie with the vaunting of his owne plaine and true going to woorke with Michaell and Andronicus once againe and none of all these things eyther aunswering the Bishop or perteyning to the question Last of al where he taketh on him to set downe the state of the question he setteth vp many newe questions neyther in hand betwéene the Bishop and master Feckenham nor any whit defended by vs but méere slaunders of the Papistes of the Princes preaching the woorde of God ministring the Sacraments binding and losing c. Thus handsomely hath he kept himselfe close to the matter and yet euer he crieth haue an eye to the marke and willeth vs still to call for the question and yet himselfe hath thus
digressed from it for otherwise ye must vnderstande his bigge Counterblast had béene but a verie shorte and little puffe of wind But to all this impertinent stuffe though the most of it for his importunitie be aunswered at large I answere it with his owne wordes fol. 4. Much labour vainely and ydly employed with tedious and infinit talke and babling al from the purpose out of the matter which ought specially to haue bene iustified 4. His seuenth common place of false translations â–ª THe reason why I place this among his other common places is that although he cite fewe allegations in this first booke for the Popes supremacie and therefore coulde not be much noted here of this fault yet in his other bookes following he is full of false translations or at the leastwise so captions translations that he might séeme any wayes to further his purpose thereby His ovvne obiection MAster Horne doth not faythfully but most corruptly and falsly alleage the authours wordes and vseth his owne in steade of theirs and to such as he truely rehearseth he giueth an vnmeete and vnprofitable sense of his owne making Interpreting a sentence out of the storie of Magdeburge wrested as spoken agaynst vs defending the supreme gouernment of the Quéenes Maiestie where it was spoken of a Popishe supremacie he translateth Non sint capita Ecclesiae They may not be heads of the Church in no cafe Which wordes in no case as though it denied all kinde of supremacie is his owne addition and not his Authours wordes fol. 22. a. To pretende a iolie antiquitie and authoritie for the Popish errour of penance and that it is a Sacrament alleaging S. Aâ—…g whose words are these Nunquid enim perfecte de Trinitate tractatuÌ„ est anteque oblatrarent Ariant nuÌ„quid perfecte de peniteÌ„tia tractaâ—… est anteque obsistereÌ„t Nouatiani sic non c. VVas the matter of the Trinitie throughly discussed before that the Arrians barked agaynst it Concerning repentance was it euer throughly handled before the Nouatians withstoode it c. which master Stapleton translateth the Sacrament of penance was neuer throughly handled c. Where Saint Augustine nameth not penance but repetance neyther speaketh he of any Sacrament at all but onely sayth de poenitenâ—…a of repentance 37. b. Where the Bishop alleaged King Dauids actes to inferre a supreme gouernment Master Stapleton aunswering by this sentence 1. Par. 24. Ut ingrediantur domum dei iuxta ritum suum sub manu Aaron patris eorum That they should enter into the house of God according to their rite or maner vnder the hande of Aaron their father to make the matter sâ—…me to serue his turne the better he Englisheth these later wordes Sub manu patris Aaron Vnder the spirituall gouernment of their spirituall father and his successors the hie Priests which wordes his text hath not Translating the wordes that he hath picked out of an Epistle of Theodosius that which is there spoken of a particular controuersie of the â—…ayth and the Priests then about the Bishop of Constantinoples deposition and appeale he translateth locum ac faâ—…ultatem habeat de fide ac sacerdotibuâ—… iudicare That he may haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in such matters as concerne faith and priests As though it were spoken simplie of all such matters where his allegation hath neyther these generall wordes suche matters as concerne nor any such generall meaning onely the Emperour Ualentinian writeth to Theodosius being also Emperour that the Bishop of Rome may haue place and licence to iudge of the fayth and the Priestes meaning of that controuersie of the fayth that was then sproong vp and the quarell about Flauianus for so the ende of the sentence in expresse wordes expoundeth it selfe Which wordes master Stap. leaueth out least his false and captious translation should be espied His ovvne obiections of contradictions THese fellowes iarre alwayes among themselues and in all their doctrines fall into such poynts of discorde that in place of vniforme tuning they ruffle vs vp a blacke sanctus Quo teneam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prâ—…tea nodâ—… His eight common place of contradictions to him self and his fellovves THis controuersie sayth he of the supremacie is the only matter the Papists stand in which if it were so then they admitte all other thingâ—… and stand not in them but straight he contraryâ—…th his owne tale saying other matters in controuersie are not so oppressed Ergo they be pressed and the Papistes stande in them â–ª 1. Pref. pag. 2. The Princes inuesturing of Bishops is but an impertinent matter And yet anon he sayth The inuestiture of Bishops is a matter quite destroying the Princes supremacie He often complayneth that the title of King Henrie the eight and King Edwarde the â—…ixt was so simple and large that it was faine to be mollified with the Queenes title And yet he sayth in his 2. Preface Pag. 34. the Queenes title hath more added than theirs and that of greatest importance He sayth Princes may meddle and deale with ecclesiasticall causes which neither master Feckenham nor any Catholike will greatly contende with him in 4. a. Where not onely the contrarie is most apparant but also Cardinall Hosiâ—… will not suffer Princes so muche as Mouere sermoneÌ„ To moue any talke of ecclesiastical matters Fol. 1â—… b. He sayth the matters debated in the disputation at Westminster were but three the seruice in English the alteration of ceremonies and the Sacrifice propiciatorie But in the next page where he sayth there woulde haue beene more deliberation he addeth a fourth the controuersie of the supremacie 13 2. He sayth those matters that were debated were nothing touching fayth and yet in the page before he onely sayd the first and the seconde be no matters of fayth He sayth also they were no principall matters but dependant and accessorie And yet in the first he sayth of the supremacie that it is of such and so great importance as no matter more nowe in controuersie and for the other poyntes who séeth not what principall matters otherwhiles they will make these séeme to be especially the sacrifice of the Masse for the whiche they burned so fast in the late raigne of Quéene Marie when this was one of their first and chiefest questions Againe that the Papistes be most obedient subiects to the Queenes Maiestie he craketh almost in euery place And yet about this disputation he confesseth that eueÌ„ in a trifling matter they disobeyed the Queenes commaundement 11. b. Fol. 29. a. b. Christian Princes ciuill gouernment reacheth and tendeth to this ende to preserue their subiects from outwarde and inwarde iniuries oppressions and enemies to prouide for their safetie quietnesse for their welth abundance and prosperous maintenance and no further What is here more than in a Sarasin Prince But anon he sayth Christian Princes most of all are muche more bounde to employ themselues to their possibilitie towarde the tuition and defence furtherance and amplification of
the people ignorant least they should discerne them And ye haue sayd of your hypocritiall errours of your â—…ayned myracles and legends of lies latebunt quam diu pâ—…rerunt vâ—…lebunt apud â–ª 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mendaciâ—… The ignorant people will ostéeme such lying to â—…es And therfore we may well returne your conclusion on your selfe that ye be those false Prophets and lying masters such as Saint Peter spake of bringing in wicked and damnable sects God giue them grace which are deceyued by you so well to knowe you as we that do examine your writings haue good cause to know you And thus your wordes of course fathered as ye call it in a luskie lane of some indiuiduum vagum a certaine Protestant of late dayes and for witnesse hereof aske your fellow if it be not so howe well in euery poynt they appeare that as they say the foxe was the first finder to be your owne tootoo open sayinges and doynges to charge vs withall a Gods name hardily let all the worlde be iudge His obiecting of stragling from the matter fo 4. a. Of false alleaging his Authours wordes fol. 5. b. Of omitting and concealing circumstances fol. 7. a. Of deepe silence to aunswere the pith of the matter fol. 8. a. Of obiecting fleshly pleasures fol. 8. b. Of quarelling that our Bishops be no Bishops fol. 9. a. b. Of passing good maners for misreporâ—…ing n. a. Of obiecting conspiracies and sedition fol. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. Remoue them with a writte of returne to the Papists themselues and then they are fully answered This lo at the least sayth M. St. fol. 37. b. heresie worketh in the Church that it maketh the truth to be more certenly knowne and more firmely and stedfastly afterwarde kept so sayth S. Augustine the matter of the Trinitie was neuer well discussed till the Arrians barked agaynst it c. This is truer M. St. than eyther ye wene or would The experience whereof is dayly to be séene in the Papists defending their errors and impugning the truth in their subtile practises in their tyrannicall inquisitions and cruel torments yea euen in this yours and your fellowes volumes striuing to obscure and deface the truth but all these steps notwithstanding the truth is and shal be more and more set forth the Popish errors â—…sse and lesse begutle vs and the kingdome of Antichrist detected and forsaken Fol. 40. a. M. St. telleth vs that S. Greg. Nazianzen saith Verum est ê™ vnum est mendaciuÌ„ auteÌ„ est multiplex The thing which is true is alwayes one like vnto it selfe whereas the lie the cloked and counterfeyt thing is in it selfe variable and diuerse By the which rule here giuen of so learned and graue a father I am here put to knowledge that the Papists not being content with the onely worde of God alwayes one and like it selfe but ioyning thereto mens variable and diuerse vnwritten verities That the Papistes being not content with the true spirituall worship of one God alwayes one like himselfe not with one mediator Iesus Christ but yéelding spirituall worship to Saints and Saints pictures besides God and making other variable and diuerse mediators to God besides Christ that the Papists being not content with the only merites satisfaction of Christs death always one and like itselfe â–ª but deuising variable and diuerse Masses Diriges Pilgrimages and satisfactions besides being not content with the flat scripture alwayes one and like it selfe that testifieth only faith in christ to be the meanes of appreheÌ„ding our iustification but adding variable diuerse infinit workâ—… of their own to deserue their iustification by being not content with the only title profession of Christianitie alwayes one 〈◊〉 like 〈◊〉 but sâ—…tting vp variable diuerse feas professioÌ„s religions names besides be but cloked counterleyy liers â–ª as Greg Nazâ—…n hath most truly said And thus ye sée M. St. how you citing falsly this sentence to proue the â—…variable 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your selfe on â–ª the thumbes Fol. 40. b. Let the King sayth master Stapleton reode on Gods name not onely that booke but all the Bible beside it is a worthie studie for him but let him beware least this sweete honie be not turned into poyson to him c. What wordes are here that we say not also yea his permission of Princes to read and studie the Bible â–ª is our most earnest prayer and exhortation And they whatsoeuer they would seeme nowe to pretende bicause they can no longer keepe it vnder their bushell it is full sore agaynst their heart that Princes should read or studie it Otherwise why suffred they not Princes to giue them selues to so woorthie and commendable a studie heretofore And nowe that they can kéepe it in no longer who it is that turneth this sweete honie of Gods worde into poyson is easie to iudge Whether hée that giueth bread to the hungrie bringing forth the whole loafe of the onely pure wheate and willeth them that are to be fedde therewith to sée to view to féelâ—… the whole and in seasonable time breaketh it to his fellow seruants before their faces that they may fully refresh their hungrie seules or he that beateth his fellowe seruaunts hydeth the loafe from them and if he must néedes giue them some mingleth the pure wheate with his owne branne and that worse is with Darnell and more of that by thrée halues than of the wheate and will néedes haue the receyuer blindfolded nor will suffer him to take it in his owne handes but by gobbet meale thrust it into his mouth nor will let the partie sée what in this sort he crammes him with as though he were worse than the Capon in a coupe and yet for all this will beare him in hande it is the true bread Whether of these twaine be the likelier to giue this poysoned bread no man that hath any witte but will giue a shrewde ayme As for false translations false dangerous and damnable gloses wherewith master St. sayth we haue corrupted and watred the same and made it as it were of pleasant wine most soure vinegar it is so euident on his owne part that the Papistes haue so vsed the Scripture and that so shamefully that it séemeth he is past shame that he dare once mencion it and yet he obiecteth it to vs that admit the expresse scripture without any gloses at all Take heede to your selfe Maister Horne for I say to you that you and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion manie and detestable heresies and so withall playne idolatrie Blot out these wordes Maister Horne and put in Maister Stapleton and then it is truely sayd Although wée not only say it but proue it also And therfore you and your felowes M. Stapleton had nede to take hede thereto fol 42. a. VVe say you are wicked deprauers of religion c. VVe say ye are as great enimies as euer the Church of Christ had
Gods name let it there appeare where it is also answered folzâ—… For his 48. and. 49. vntruthes he alleageth no reason nor cause onely he sayth the former is boldely auouched but no way proued and the other somewhat more impudent Since therefore he hath nothing wherein to conuince them I may wel returne his boldnesse and impudencie to him selfe and remitte the tryall of the truthe or vntruthe to the discussing of Iosias ensample Nowe haue you shewed your selfe playnely herein to be a Donatist also The. 50. vntruthe most slaunderous M. Horne and his fellowes are in many poyntes Donatistes as shall appeare The triall of this vntruthe is discoursed at large in the proper place where M. Stapleton citeth it to appeare there shall be heard inough for triall of this chalenge pro contra and as the Reader on the viewe of bothe shall there finde it so on Gods name let him estéeme of it The Donatistes sayde they were of the Catholike fayth of the Catholike Church-which shifte for their defence agaynst Gods truthe the Popishe sectaries do vse in this our time beeing no more of the one or of the other than were the Donatistes and suche like The. 51. vntruthe Answere the Fortresse M. Horne annexed to sainct Bede if ye dare to defende this most sensible and grosse lye Howe happie are you M. Stapleton that euer ye buylt suche a Fortresse that ye thus can crake of so lustily bidde vs come and assayle crying aunswere the Fortresse and come if yee dare and if he come not then he dare not come if he set not on your Fortresse then this must néedes be a lye Muste it nowe truely then youre Fortresse is but a weake Fortresse if the prouing this a lye doe aunswere and ouerturne your Fortresse We néede neuer goe thither for the matter to proue your Church noâ—… the catholike Church nor to haue the catholike fayth this wil be proued in this booke well inough I warrant ye or euer it be ended ye shal sée your self more than once or twice confesse it And diuers other haue at large proued it what néede we then runne to your Fortresse In the next diuision which is the. 19. M. St. gathereth an other vntruthe but before it he setteth downe two marginall notes The first where the Bishop sayd All the sectes of the Donatistes whether they be Gaudentians Petilians Rogatists Papistes or any other sect c. Upon this word Papistes master Stapleton maketh a starre saying You should haue sayd Protestantes who in so many points as hath bene shewed resembled the Donatistes It is well inough M. Sta. and ye can let it stand til time be ye haue vntrussed all those poyntes euen from your own sloppes then ye may go perhaps like Baily hosegodowne The. 2 â–ª note is this Where the Bishop hauing alleaged a long sentence of S. Augustine agaynst M. Feckenham Thus farre S. Augustine sayth he by whose iudgement of the catholike Church c. Note sayth M. Stap. that nowe S. Augustines iudgement is also the iudgement of the catholike Churche To the which note I also adde this note withall M. Stapleton that your Church is not then the Catholiks Church whose iudgement herein agréeth not with Sainct Augustines iudgement Loe M. Stapleton howe pretily yourself begin to aunswere your last vntruth if ye holde on thus we shall not greatly néed to scale your fortresse euen this your CouÌ„terblast will encounter and ouerblowe it After these two notes he setteth downe his vntruth Your errontous opinion The. 52 vntruth M. Feckenham holdeth no such opinion The opinion there mencioned and confuted by S. Augustine is this of the Donatists that the order rule and gouernment practised be the Kinges of the olde Testament in ecclesiasticall causes ar not figures and prophecies of the like gouernment to bee in the kings vnder the newe Testament nor the order that Christ lefte behinde him in his Gospell newe Testament This was the opinion of the Donatistes in Saint Augustines time and this is yours Master Fecknams and Master Dormans opinion nowe that they are not such figures and prophecies and therfore ye confesse your selfe fol. 62. that M. Feckenham omitted the proufes of the olde Testament bycause they made against him Nowe whether this be an erroniouse opinion or no I commit you and Saint Augustine togither to scamble about it The. 53 vntruth Whither S. Augustine haue witnessed no such large and supreame gouernment as we attribute now to Princes yea whither Master Stapleton haue graunted so much or no is proued at large in the. 19. 20. Diuisions Your wilfulnesse is such that you delight only in wrangling against the truth The. 54. vntruth â—…claunderous Then are your selfe this â—…claunderer M. Stapleton that confesse Folio 62. he omitted to shewe forthe the truths of purpose bicause it made agaynst him what is this but wiâ—…full wrangling agaynst the truthe Constantine made many holesome lawes and godly constitutions wherewith he restrayned the people with threates forbidding the sacrificing to Idols to seeke after the diuelishe and superstitious soothsaying to set vp Images The. 55. vntâ—…uthe They were Idols not Images that Constantine forbad his subiects to set vp And in his Counterblast fol. 68. he sayth to say that Constantine forbad to â—…et vp Images is an open and a shamelesse lye What shamelesse outfacing is this The very words euen in the same place and many other of the booke are playne agaynst Images and nameth bothe Idols and Images also as the Bishop dothe Which withal confuteth his subtile distinction betwéene Image and Idoll as though an Image might not be an Idoll also Neither can the distinction serue your turne For Constantine forbiddeth bothe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 As for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your selfe confesse he forbad whether he forbad Images or no these are Eusebius owne wordes in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 2. Euen so Christe our Sauiour confirmed this their authoritie commaunding all men to attribute and giue vnto Cesar that which belongeth vnto him The. 56. vntruthe This place of S. Mathew maketh nothing for the Princes supreme gouernement in ecclesiasticall things It maketh as the Bishop alleaged it to confirme al that authoritie by Christes Gospell that was due before in the time of the olde Testament Which your selfe graunt â–ª but that Princes had supreme authoritie in ecclesiastical things in the time of the olde Testament the Bishop proued before and your selfe also graunted it though ye denied such supreme gouernement as we attribute Therefore this place maketh some thing for Princes supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall things so bewrayeth your owne vntruth and the truth of the Bishop This to be Christes order and meaning that the kings of the nations should be the supreme gouernours ouer their people not onely in temporall but also in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes the blessed
no lay Prince Ergo Thy religion is no religioÌ„ in deede but a bare name therof The reader thanks be to God were he but a simple clerke néede not greatly beate his braynes in considering the vvaight of this argument The maior is hanged vp for holidayes on your conditional pin The minor is your manifest falsehod The whole in effect standeth on these two false â—…urmised principles presupposing the prince to take suche supreme gouernement on him as the Pope chalengeth and that suche as the Pope chalengeth is due to the Pope to make infringe or alter religion without any other authoritie which indéede is neyther due to Prince or prelate but to God alone nor the prince but the popeclaymeth it and therefore his argument maketh only against the popes religion as thus To enact erect or force religion vpon thee â—…yther of spirituall or lay magistrate whosoeuer by their or his supreme 〈◊〉 and other authoritie for it hath none is to make in deed no religion at all but a bare name of religion onely But that thus doth the Pope as besides that it is manifest euen here M. Stap. plamely confesseth saying that supreme gouernment making relation to the wordes immediately precéeding vvhich supreme gouernement enacteth erecteth and forceth religion vppon thee hauing no other authoritie is due to the spirituall magistrate and to one chiefe magistrate among the vvhole spiritualtie meaning his holy father the pope Ergo The popes religion is a bare name of religion onely and no religion in deede And thus his owne argument better considered returneth on him selfe But he béeyng blinded with the affection of his false principles and reasoning à petitione principâ—… â–ª runneth on with his 〈◊〉 from the religion to the othe to inferre periâ—…rie Againe sayth he if this supreme gouernement be not rightly attributed to the lay magistrate in vvhat state are they vvhich by booke othe doe svveare that it ought so to be yea and that in their consciences they are so persvvaded Is not periurie and speciallye a vvilfull continuance in the same a most horrible damnable crime in the sight of god and doth not gods vengeance vvatch ouer them vvhich sleepe iâ—… periurie â–ª I vvill be a quicke vvitnesse to periured persons sayth God by the Prophete Malachie He that heard you preach thus against periurie M. St. knewe ye not might thinke ye were not guiltie But if he better coÌ„sidered your periured case obstinate disobedience agaynst your Prince how wilfully ye continue and sleepe therin and maliciously slaunder your prince countrimen and wrest the othâ—… of set purpose he woulde surely maruell of your impudenâ—… If this supreme gouernment say you be not rightly attributed to the lay magistrate in vvhat state are they vvhich by boke o th do sweare that it ought so to be What is this supreme gouernment M. St. that ye speak of If ye say that which I speciâ—…ed before to were that which erecteth enacteth and forceth religion vpon thee without any other authoritie therof what is this but one of your impudent slauÌ„ders For though your pope taketh this supreme gouernmeÌ„t you giue it him yet neither we attribute this to the prince nor the prince taketh any such vpoÌ„ 〈◊〉 neither do the people sweare it ought so to be nor any such oth is tendred them therfore be in no such state of periury The oth that the prince offreth the people take nameth nor conteyneth any such supreme gouernmeÌ„t but such as they may lawfully ought to take thanks be to god incurre no such dauÌ„ger but performe therin their dutifull true obedience But in what state are you to set another if to yours â—…f the supreme gouernment that the lay magistrate as ye saucily cal the Quéenes maiesty requireth by oth be rightly attributed vnto hir highnes in what state theÌ„ are all those papists that obstinately disobey maliciously slauÌ„der by al meanes impugue the same are you not in the state of periurie or farre worse in what state be al you papists that where the oth to this supreme gouernmeÌ„t which ye speak of implieth as you coÌ„clude manifest periury and you plainely ascribe it to the Pope the Pope sweareth you other his vassals to it is not this periurie especially a vvilful coÌ„tinuance in the same a most horrible damnable crime in the sight of God and doth not Gods vengeance vvatch ouer them vvhich sleepe in periurie I vvill bee a quicke vvitnesse to periured persons sayth God by his prophet Malachie And therfore looke your selfe to this your chalenge better about ye M. St. For if the reader should vveigh it further as ye pretende I feare me further matter will fall out agayâ—…st ye But for all this M. St. will not stay but on he goeth still with his iffs and reuerseth his arguments on the contrary reasoning on this his condition 〈◊〉 absurdo If that supreme gouernment may duly rightly appertein to our liege souereigne or be any principall part of a princes roial povver as master Horne stoutly but fondly auoucheth or of his 〈◊〉 â—…eruice to God vvhich neuer prince in the realme of England before the dayes of K. Henry the 8. vsed or claimed vvhich neuer Emperour king or prince vvithout the realm of England yet to this present houre had or atteÌ„pted to haue â–ª vvhich the chief masters of the religion novv authorised in England do mislike reproue condemne namely Martin Luther Iohn 〈◊〉 Philip Melanction and the Magdeburgenâ—…s as in place coÌ„uenient I haue shevved vvhich also in no time or age since princes vvere first christned in no lande or couÌ„try in no councel general or national was euer vvitnessed practised or allowed last of all which directly fighteth vvith christs coÌ„mission giueÌ„ to the apostles their successors in the gospel standeth direct coÌ„trary to an article of our crede if such supreme gouernmeÌ„t I say may be lavvful good theÌ„ is the oth lavvful and may vvith good conscience be taken But if these be such absurdities as euery man of any consideration seeth and abhorreth then may not the othe of any man that hath a conscience bee taken Neyther can this supreme gouernment be possiblye defended for good and lavvfull Upon iffs and affs ye may conclude M Stap. what ye please This one pin â—…f will beare all this light stuffe that that ye hang vpon it well inough What man and if the skie fall we shall haue Larkes they say Ye recken vp many particulers if this be thus and if that be so and if the other thing be that and iâ—… suche be good and if these he suche but if this be not thus if that be not so if such be not these if these be not such then I say then that that is not this and this is not that and so ye conclude it makes no matter what For of all your solemne arguing to and fro ye lay downe in déede many
conclusion to make the sequele more dreadfull that after diuerse reconciliations with the Romaine Sea they fell into the Turkish captiuitie Why may it not as well be noted thereon that they neuer came into this extreme flanery of the Turke but their Empire continued aboue 1000. yeares till after those their reconciliatioâ—… made with the Pope then within 14. yeares they fell in the Turks captiuitie But of this more hereafter From the Gréek and â—…ast Church he procéedeth to the Affricanes making the like argument on them But to answere him briefly To reason thus from the vnitie of the Romaine Sea in fayth then to the obedience of the Romaine Sea in the supremacie nowe euery scholer will some say is a very good non seqâ—…tur The like common fallace à non causâ—… vt causâ—… he maketh of Hungarie and Lifelande fallen into the handes of the Turkes and Moscouites Bicause sayth he they forsooke the Pope and fell to Luther But if this argument be good demaunde of him how 〈◊〉 the â—…hodes Belgradum Buda and other cities and parts in Austria which likewise the Turk hath gotten be cleane forgetten here of him and not reckened vp in this number was it bicause they acknowledged none more than the Rhodians the Popes supremacie and yet fell into the Turkishe captiuitie so well as the other At the length he 〈◊〉 home to Englande and when he should here make the full conclusion of all these lamentable sequeles of reâ—…olt from the Romaine Sea in other Countreyes that the lyke shoulde lyghte on vs séeyng that his argumente contrarie to hys long and wycked hope doeth fayle in the conclusion least eyther hée shoulde shewe the follie of hys impertinent argumentes or vtter the vnnaturall malice that for his Pope and popishe religion he hath fostred long in his cankred breast agaynst his naturall prince and Countrey he turneth the Catte into the Panne not by concluding hys argument on the lyke issue to Englande but rawly and generally knitteth vp the matter thus But vvhat vvas the issue all the vvorlde knovveth and Englande the more pitie greeuously feeleth To this M. Stap I answere Thanks be giuen to God no suche isâ—…ue as you would conclude of other Countreys from errors and the Turke to vs It is you that abhorring the Gospell more than Turkerie feele this gréefe ye speake of for that your sequele holdeth no better in Englande Englande neither feareth the Turkes nor these your byous threates and would to God no parte of Christendome euen of those that you accounte moste Popishe catholike were no more subiecte to the inuasion and daunger of the Turkishe barbarous and Saraâ—…ins irruptions and tyrannie than Englande is and yet if God shoulde punishe any parte of Christendome by them though he vse by his secret Iustice their furie as a rodde to scourge their offences yet will not we nor may iustly make suche tragicall sequeles reasons to argue pro or contra on Religion as here you doe by these peoples to conclude agaynst vs But prayses be to God you can conclude nothing Englande euer since that through the Quéenes most excellent maiestie it hath enioyed the libertie of Gods moste holy worde hath maâ—…ger all your spites reioyced withall bothe tranquillitie wealth peace fréedome and aboue all things the fauour of God in Christ euen for that it hath escaped the spirituall bondage of your Pope farre worse than the bodily captinitie of the Turke God continue his mercy to vs and make vs thankfull for it Nowe since ye can not fasten any such sequele as ye wishe on Englande ye gather petite quarels and like a poâ—…her seeke corners to finde out some inconueniences not worthy answere And yet bicause ye resume them often times after and make muche ado about them as reading the Byble and other bookâ—…s suppressing Abbeys marriage of Priests oirginitie vovves no Church Byshops but Parliament Byshops the sacrament of the altare c. they are answered where ye handle them at large and not here whereye snatch at them Onely this your grosse lie I will note here about king Henries lawes Bicause ye cite it not that I remember any more Ye say that after his death and in the minoritie of his sonne king Edvvarde all the lavves that he had made touching matters of religion sauing against the supremacie vvere repelled and abolished What a manifest and impudent lie is this King Henrie besides the supremacie made lawes for the abolishing of shrines and pilgrimages of pulling downe Images of depressing popish sectaries Monks Friers Numies Heremits Anachores c. Were these lawes repelled and abolished after his death in the minoritie of king Edwarde Shewe it or else wipe your lippes for a foule lie hath beslabbered them Master Stap. All these former arguments and these extrauagant discourses consist on a wrong principle All this haue I spoken sayeth he to shevve it is most true that I haue sayde that there vvill neuer be redresse of error and heresie or any stay vvhere men are once gone from the vnitie of the Sea Apostolike vvhich is the vvell spring and fountaine of all vnitie in the Catholike fayth This false principle if we denie it him then all his arguments of absurdities and euents theron are not worth a rush But had he put in but one letter more and for vnitie had sayd vanitie it had bene a most true principle nor we woulde or coulde haue euer denyed the same The last reason of his Preface to leaue a pricke of discredite agaynst the Protestants in the readers minde is of our discorde and inconstancie in this question the assumption whereof being in déede nothing but slaunders of the prince the Realme and diuerse Godly learned men is partly sette out in his common place of slaunders and partlye shall be further particulerly aunswered as they come to hande in the booke where he discourseth on them Thus much for the pithe of all his argumentes conteyned in hys Preface to the Reader to winne hys minde to hys cause before hande and alienate it from ours but the wyse Reader wyll first reade or euer he giue his iudgement The answere to M. St. Counterblast on the Bishops Preface The first Deuision IN his answere to the B. Preface whereas the Bishop in the first Deuision for so M. Stapleton termeth euery seuerall portion that he answereth vnto sheweth the necessarie reasons that moued him to answere Master Feckenhams booke and the couert meaning of master Feckenham in secretly scatering his booke abroade that therein he shewed a further meaning than he durst plainely vtter and that the intent of the booke as might iustly be gathered was to engraft in the mindes of the subiects a misliking of the Q. maiestie as though she vsurped a power and authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters whereto she had no right to slaunder the whole realme as though it were estraunged and directly agaynst the Catholike Church tenouncing and refusing to haue communion therewith
other I build this argument euen according to your owne definition of a supreme gouernour and master Feckenhams offer A supreme gouernour is he say you that hath the chiefe gouernment of the thing gouerned in those actions that belong to the ende wherevnto the gouernor tendeth But the actions of Ecclesiasticall persons ouer whome the Prince is supreme gouernour as master Feckenham hath graunted doe belong properly to the ende wherevnto the Prince tendeth to wete not onelye to mainteyne the common peace and tranquilitie but also to sée that Gods religion and seruice be purely and syncerely had and kept amongst the subiects Ergo In these actions the prince is supreme gouernour and so by consequence in all causes and actions ecclesiasticall To proue the minor first that all the trauayle of all godly Preachers in the worlde is to this ende is playne and manifest That this is also the chiefe ende of the Princes gouernement both your selfe master Stapleten at length haue confessed centrarie to your former heathen limitation and also the verye heathen and prophane wryters themselues so well as Christian haue acknowledged Wherein master Stapleton both sheweth his great follie in reasoning that heathen Princes did not regarde religion Ergo they ought not especially to haue regarded it and also bewrayed his ignorance in the antecedent of this his vaine reason for the heathen though they erred in mistaking religion yet they knewe and taught that it was an especiall care and ende of the Princes gouernment I speake not howe Plato in his bookes de rep legib reckoneth the care of Religion to be a chiefe ende of theyr authoritie And yet will I note two sentences out of Aristotle whome to denie your Sorbonistes make more than petit heresie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayth he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the other Cityes the sacryfices are left onely to the Kinges And agayne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For the Capitaine was â—…oth King and Iudge and Lorde of the deuine matters And to proue this by the storyes of heathen Princes Numa Pompilius hath his chiefest commendation not so muche for making ciuill lawes and pollicies to the Romaynes as for his lawes about theyr religion theyr Priestes theyr Nunnes theyr Sacrifices The Magistrates of Athens did sitte in iudgement and condemned Socrates when Anitus and Melitus accused him for false religion The Romaine Princes them selues woulde labour principally for the office of the chiefe Bishoppe whiche terme Pontifex Maximâ—… the Bishoppe of Rome nowe chalengeth Tiberius promoted to the Senate of Rome as to those that had the care and gouernement of theyr religion that Christ might be accounted among theyr Gods. Yea in the Scripture is declared that Nabuchaâ—…nezar the King of Babylon an Heathen Prince and vtterly destitute of the truthe before God gaue him some sparâ—…kes thereof yet made hée a lawe of worshipping hys owne Image And King Darius of Persia made a decrée that none shoulde worship God in certayne dayes In all which matters although these heathen Princes crred from the truth yet they thought that religion which they mistooke for truth to be a principall part belonging to their gouernment Although therefore master Stapleton ye doe great iniurie to Christian Princes to make their state common with the Paganes yet do you more iniurie herein to them than the heathen did to their heathen princes Was it lawfull for them in their heathen gouernment to haue so especiall a care aboute their heathen and false religion and is it not lawfull for godly Christian Princes to haue the like or more aboute Chrystes true Religion Is the ende of their gouernment common to both alyke as ye say and yet the Heathens stretched further than doeth the Christian Princes Iohannes de Parisus affirmeth that this is a false supposition of yours Master Stapleton Quod potest as regalâ—… c. That the kingly power is corporall and not spirituall That the Kingly power hath the cure of the bodie and and not of the soules Sithe it was ordeyned to the common profite of the Citizens not euery profite but that profite which is to liue according to vertue Herevpon sayth the Philosopher in the Ethikes that the intention of the lawmaker is to make men good and to enduce them to vertue And also in the Politykes he sayth that as the soule is better than the bodie so a lawmaker is better than a Physition bicause the lawmaker hath care for the soules and a Physition for the bodie Nowe as the Philosophers ascribed this ende in the Heathens false religion in vertues of lyfe and care of the soule to the gouernement of Heathen Princes Doth not Saint Paule shewe as muche and more trowe you for the ende of Christian Princes gouernement in these thinges Ut 〈◊〉 tranquillam vitam degamus in omni pietate honestate That we may leade sayth he a quiet and peaceable life in al godlinesse and honestie Was this no further master Stapleton than safetie quietnesse worldly wealth aboundance and prosperous maintenance Did the great Constantine stretche the ende of his gouernment no further when he sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 debere ante omnta scopum esse â—…udicaus c. I iudged that this oughte before all other thinges to be my scope that among the most holye multitudes of the Catholike Churche one fayth and syncere charitie and godlinesse agreeing togither towardes almightie God might be conserued Did the whole assemblye of Byshoppes in the first generall Councell at Constantinople limitte no further the endes of Theodosius gouernment when they confessed that God instituit imperiuâ—… Theodosâ—… ad communempacem ecclesiarum sanae fidâ—… confirmationem God did orday ne the gouernement of Theodosius for the common peace of the Churches and the confirmation of the sounde fayth Did Saint Augustine beléeue that Princes gouernement reached no further when he sayde Reges in terris seruiunt Christo faciendo legeâ—… pro Christo Kinges in the earth doe serue Christe in making lawes for Christe Did Iustinian suppose hys authoritie tended no further when he wrote Legum Authoritas diuinas humanas res bene disposuit The authoritie of the lawes hath well disposed both the deuine and humaine matters Did the mâ—…ste Christian King of Spaine Richaredus thinke that the ende of hys gouernement stretched no further when he sayde openly in the thirde Councell at Tolet before all the Bishoppes there assembled Quanto subditorum gloria Regali extolliâ—…r tanto prouidi esse debemus in his quae ad Deum sunt c Howe muche more we bee exalted in royall glorie ouer our subieâ—…es so muche more ought wee to bee carefull in those matters that appertayne to God eyther to augment our owne hope or else to looke to the profite of the people committed to vs of god And as ye see me in verie deede inslamed wyth the feruencie of fayth God hath styrred mee vp to this ende that the obstinacie of
as our sauiour Christ hath lefte behinde him in his Gospell and nevve Testament Either by the vvritinges of suche learned doctors bothe olde and nevve vvhich haue from age to age vvitnessed the order of eeclesiasticall gouernement in Christes Church Either by the generall councels vvherin the right order of ecclesiasticall gouernement in Christes Churche hath bene moste faythfully declared and shevved from time to time Or else by the continuall practise of the like ecclesiasticall gouernement in some one Church or parte of all Christendome By these foure meanes this issue aforesaide as the state of the controuersie betwéene bothe parties must be tryed That by any of these foure meanes proofe be made to him That anie Emperour or Empresse King or Queene may claime or take vpō them anie such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes This requireth master Feckenham to be prored The satisfaction whereof to be proued by the Bishop is this That by some of these foure meanes proufe may be made to him that some Emperour Empresse King or Queene may clayme or take vppon them some such gouernment in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes If the B. shall be founde to haue proued thus much to M. Feck he hath fully satisfyed his request and M. Feckenham according to his promise ought to sweare with humble thankes notwithstanding master Sapletons quarelling Counterblast The Bishop reducing M. Feckenhams first poynt to a forme of argument repeateth it No man may restifie any thing by a booke oth whereof he is ignorant and knoweth nothing without committing manifest periurie But you neyther knowe that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this Realme as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things or causes as temporall neither yet know ye anye waye or meane whereby to haue anye knowledge thereof Ergo ye cannot testifie the same on a boke oth without manifest periurie To this the B. replieth that although he might flatly denie the minor that M. Feck is not without all knowledge and vtterly ignorant of the matter nor destitute of al meanes to attaine therto yet he sayth he wil answere by distinction of ignorance to shew how M. Feck is ignorāt how he is not He alleageth a thréefold deuision of ignorance out of Thomas of Aquine the chiefe of the Popish scholemen ▪ Ignorance of simplicitie Ignorāce of wilfulnes and ignorance of malice Prouing that he is not ignorant of the first sort hauing in king Henries and king Edwards reignes continually knowne acknowledged confessed it and therfore his ignorance is either of wilfulnesse or of malice or of both of them M. St. Counterblast standeth chiefly on thrée matters first his answere to Thom. distinction with an obiecting againe to the B. the opinion of Tho. in this cōtrouersie Secondly a quarrelling chalenging of the B. for vntruthes Thirdly an excuse of master Feckenham for setting forth this supremacie With a quarell ioyned thereto that the B. citing a sentence out of the booke of wisdome called it a sentence of the holy ghost concluding thereon a discorde of our doctrine But or euer he enter into his first part he noteth this for a generall warning before Now are maister Feckenham and master Horne come to couple and ioyne togither in the principall matter If this forewarning be true M. St. that this their coupling and ioyning togither on this issue to wete whether any princes haue takē any such gouernmēt on them be nowe by your confession the principall matter controuersed betweene the partyes standing in variaunce whiche as ye sayde before is conuenient and necessarie to haue before our eyes and then deligently to see howe the proufes are of eche partie applied for the confirming of their assertions Then all those sixe principles whiche ye sette vp before your Counterblast as markes to fixe the eye of the Reader vppon were but false markes and not the principall matter wherein the parties coupled them selues togither to proue or improue the same Then were almost all that hitherto M. Stap. hath sayde as the Reader marking this well shall sée and the most of that which he hath to say in this great Counterblast nothing else but a running about the Bushe and wresting of euerye thing from the principall matter in which they ioyned to some other matters wherein they coupled not Whiche is plaine to beguile and abuse not rightly to direct the eye of the Reader as the Reader fixing his eye on thys issue shall soone espie your falsehoode This issue then being the principall matter as ye say and the Bishop coupling and ioyning herein togither with master Feckenham as ye also say and the Bishop hauing proued that which he endeuoured himselfe to proue which ye likewise haue confessed what remayneth by your owne tale telling but that the Bishop hath fully proued the principall matter in question Neither will you as you say nor any other Catholikes greatly contend with him for that he hath proued and he hath proued that that he laboured in he laboured in that he coupled he coupled in this issue thys issue is the principall matter betwéene them whie then do ye so fiersely contende but that ye woulde shewe your selfe a vaine sophisticall and brabling quarrellour that haue no great cause to contende nor anye cause at all and yet will so greatly contende onely of wylfull malice confessing your selfe the thing to be proued that is the principall matter Master Stap. hauing giuen this forewarning commeth to his first part which he deuideth thréefold First he iesteth out the matter with scoffes which I referre to his common place thereon Secondly he denieth master Feckenham to haue any ignorance in this poynt except it were inuincible ignorance by no study or diligence able to be put away and therfore pardonable Since ye admit the distinction M. Stap. ye bring out of time your other inuincible ignorance How pardonable it is is another question But sée how ignorantly while ye would defende M. Fec you ouerthwart him he pleadeth ignorance for his defence and you say he is not ignorant and woulde put the B. to proue that he should be ignorant of wilfulnesse and malice which the B. hath done alreadie and so ye debarre M. Feckēham of his refuge and make him to haue knowledge of this poynt Which not only he himself denieth but which your selfe afterwards denie also yea that he could not haue knowledge of this poynt But you thinke to escape cleare with helping the matter by a newe pertition of ignorance adding a fourth part of inuincible ignorance Surely say you if there were any ignorance in this point it were such as S. Tho. and other call inuincible ignorance Except M. St. ye confound this fourth ignorance with one of the thrée before named ye quite exclude M. Fec from the whole distinction of Thomas and yet ye say the distinction may be true ye will not stick with him for that distinction So that eyther ye
Prince hereon will clayme by the one sentence to haue the knowledge of the lawe and worde of God ye wil enforce of the other that he shall haue no more therof nor no otherwise than it pleaseth you to licence him And so farre ye dare aduenture to say VVell let the king reade in Gods name not only that booke but all the whole Byble beside it is a worthy and coÌ„mendable studie for him But let him beware that this sweete honie be not turned into poyson to him and least vnder this pleasant bayte of Gods worde he be sodenly choked with the topicall and pestiferous translation wherewith ye haue rather peruerted than translated the Byble printed at Geneua and in many other places with your false dangerous damnable gloses wherwith you haue corrupted and watred the same and made it as it were of pleasaunt wine moste sowre vineger The onely remedie and helpe to eschue and auoyde this daunger is to take this booke and other holy writings faythfully translated at the Priestes handes as they from tyme to tyme haue receyued them Howe fitly ye apply your metaphors in making one thing in the same respect to be sweete hony yet sowre vinegar let others descaÌ„t How properly ye rap your friers monks on the balde in vpbrayding gloses wherwith the worde of God hath bene watered and corrupted let euen the Papistes be iudge them selues whether it toucheth you or vs more néere How notably ye haue confuted the translation of the Geneua Byble shall be declared when ye shall set downe some one or other false worde or sentence translated in it Howe well you like that kinges should read the Byble as a worthy and commendable studie for them appeaâ—…h in that ye can away with no translation nor yet your â—…e wyll set out any for them But howe well soeuer you like it or at least dissemble for to lyke it the moste of your complyces lyke it neuer a deale Full sore agaynst whose willes it was translated in the mother tong of any prince or people But if it were so worthy and commendable a studie for Princes why were not Christian Princes permitted to studie in it why kepte ye them in ignoraunce why limit ye them within the studie of â—…ill affayres of martiall policies of hunting and hauking pastimes But as for the worde of God not one word no not to moue any talke thereof sayth Cardinall Hosius And thinke ye they might then make the same their studie but how soeuer ye ordered Princes as other people then now that ye sée there is no remedie Princes will be no longer deluded but make it their studie in déede with a false heart God knoweth ye say well let the king reade in Gods name not onely that booke but all the whole Byble beside It is a worthy and commendable studie for him If ye be thus liberall master Stapl. to Princes from your heart nowe why did ye quarell with the byshop so muche before for saying he should haue by him the booke of the lawe should he reade and studie the same and yet not haue it by him But I perceiue ye are halfe wéerie of your owne wrangling and therfore in the end ye not onely graunt that he shall haue it by him but also shall make the same his studie Now here if your fellowes aske ye what ye meane to be thus liberall to princes in permitting them to studie in the worde of God in suche tonges as they vnderstand which thing many of your felowes would stifly gaynsay be content my masters may you say it is not now time to striue to muche with princes since they will néedes haue thus muche let them haue it a Gods name yea let vs séeme to giue it them franke and frée but euer presupposed they muste haue it of our giuing and then goâ—…d inough they were as good and perchaunce better without it â–ª For here after ye haue seriously warned princes to beware of our false gloses and translations The onely remedie and helpe say you to eschue and auoyde this danger is to take this booke and other holy writings faythfully translated at the Priests hands as they froÌ„ time to time haue receiued theÌ„ Some simple man that heard ye M. Stapleton thus demurely preache of translations and glosinges woulde perhappes thinke ye coulde not glose and translate so falsely so impudently as ye do euen here where ye reprehende the same in others Dothe your texte that ye beate so much vpon mention these words receiuing of it translated at the Priests hands as they from time to time haue receiued it or is there any suche meaning First there is no mention of any translating at all but the text sayth accipiens exemplar à sacerdotibus Leuiticâ—… tribus taking a copie of the priestes of the Leuiticall tribe Or as other haue it describet sibi exemplar huius legis in librocoram sacerdotibus Lenitici generis He shall write out for him selfe a copie of this law in a booke before the Priestes of the Leuiticall tribe He speaketh not héere of any translation for why the lawe was wrytten in their owne mother tongue Nowe bicause to other Princes it is giuen translated can ye inferre hereon the Priests onely should haue the translating of it or béeing translated it should be receiued onely at the Priests handes as they from time to time haue receiued it wherby it should follow that had the translation passed any continuaÌ„ce from time to time it should be forced on vs for a faythful translatioÌ„ were it neuer so false which is apparaÌ„t in the old translation that hath long time froÌ„ time to time continued falsly vnder S. Hieroms name as both appeareth by S. Hieroms works also S. Hierom coÌ„futeth this fond reason Neither was he moued with the outcries of those in his time yea euen of S. Austine that cried on him as you do now on the learned traÌ„slators in our time Neither might the word of god hereby be traÌ„slated into any other toÌ„g thaÌ„ it hath ben traÌ„slated into of long coÌ„tinuance froÌ„ time to time thus should princes be debarred of the word of God in which ye would haue them studie except you popish priests would translate it per aduenture to kéepe them from it ye would say you should not deliuer any other translation than hath bene vsed from time to time And yet to what prescription of time ye wold driue vs off it is vncerteyne This is false therfore and ful of absurdities that ye prattle of receyuing it translated at the Priestes handes as they from time to time haue receiued it No M. St. to borrowe your own termes your text sayth not so sir nor meaneth so But only that the prince should receiue it of the Leuiticall priests as they had faythfully kept the word of God from the first original setting out therof So noteth Uatablus the great learned Hebritian Curabit sibi describâ—… exemplar legis
master Stapleton here is no small boast I trowe We had nowe néede to beware betymes for feare the Bishoppe be here quite ouerthrowne since that master Stapleton maketh so prowde a chalenge Let vs therefore take héede to hys argument on thys place VVhiche place sayeth he well weighed and considered serueth to declare that I haue sayde that the King and others shoulde receyue not onelye the letter whiche as Saint Paule sayeth doeth kyll but the true and syncere meaning withall wherein standeth the lyfe of the letter as the lyfe of man wythin hys bodie yea the eternall lyfe whereof by following lewde lying expositions of holye wâ—…itte wee are spoyled at the Priestes handes Is this the conclusion of all this great crake M. St. that the B. should be quite ouerthrowne by this sentence what one word is here not only of this sentence but euen of your owne well weighed and considered conclusion theron which hath come nere vnto much lesse ouerthrowne the Bishops assertion Which if ye would haue ouerthrowne ye should haue concluded agaynst it and thus haue reasoned Moses sayde to the people of Israell if any hard or doubtfull thing in iudgement rise vp with thee betwixt bloud and bloud plea and plea plague and plague in matters of strife within the Citie c. Go to the Priestes and vnto the Iudge that shall be in those dayes c. Ergo a Christian king ought not to chalenge or take vpon him any such supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall matters as doth the Queenes maiestie This conclusion in déede quite ouerthroweth the Bishops assertion But who séeth not that this sentence is to farre fetched to inferre any such conclusion And therfore master Stapleton thoughe this was his buttâ—… on whiche his eyâ—… shoulde haue béene fixed and brought his proues to haue improued this yet durst he not once touche or come nighe it for very shame for if he had he sawe that euery boye in the scholes would haue hissed out his argument And therefore wilyly weighing and considering howe he might make it séeme to serue to some purpose that he had craked on so much This place sayth he well weighed and considered serueth to declare that I haue sayd that Kings and others should receyue not onely the bare letter but the true and sincere meaning withall c. at the priestes handes And is this all that this place serueth to M. Stapleton for I dare say you haue well weighed and considered the matter that from so great a boast are so sodenly fallen into so déepe a consideration of the bare letter killing and the true quickening sense therof Wheras that text if ye would but meanely weigh and consider it once againe neyther talketh of any killing letter or liuing sense at all but of certaine doubtfull cases of strife nor can serue to confirme those sayings of Christ and Saint Paule without manifest wresting of it But to what purpose doe ye so well weigh and consider that whiche is nothing in question and that which is in question denyed and you should proue without any weighing or considering ye take it for confessed Who doubteth of this that Princes should not onely receyue the bare letter but the true sense and meaning withall at the priestes handes This Princes in déede should do which if they had alwayes done they shoulde not haue receyued so many of their lewde lying expositions as they haue done here to fore at the priestes hands who herein deceyued princes and gaue them not the true meaning and sense togither with the copie of Gods worde but debarred Princes of copie thereof of letter sense and all féeding them wyth the vayne fables and lewde lying expositions of theyr owne deuisings Wherefore Lyra noteth here vppon the Hebrue glosse Hic dicit glossa Hebraica c. Here sayth the Hebrue glosse if the priest shall say vnto thee that thy right hande is thy left hande or thy left hande is thy right hande this saying must be vpholden which thing is manifest false For the sentence of no maner of man of what authoritie so euer he be is to be vpholden if it conteyne a manifest falsehoode or errour And this appeareth by this which is set before in the text They shall iudge vnto thee the truth of Iudgement and afterward is set vnder And they shall teach thee according to his lawe whereby it appeareth that if the Priestes speake that which is false or swarue from the law of God they are not to be heard Thus sayth Lyra in confuting the Hebrue glosars of their hye Priests that sayde they could not erre and therefore what soeuer they taught must be beléeued And do not your Papistes say the same of the Pope and your selfe holde the same of your Priestes expositions that theirs alwayes muste be taken for the true sense else wherto bring ye out this conclusion In doubtfull cases of bloud and ciuill actions of strife the highe Priest and the chiefe Iudge muste determine a finall sentence Ergo Princes muste receiue not the letter of the scripture but suche sense as the Popish priestes and the Pope shall determine for the true sense in all controuersies of religion For this is the ful drift of your reason though ye dare not for shame speake so playne But this argument the more it is wayed wayeth lyke a fether in the winde and therefore ye turne the conclusion into generall words and say Ergo Princes and others muste receiue at the Priestes hands not onely the bare letter that killeth but the true and sincere meaning therof withall Which coÌ„clusion is not in controuersie but on both parts graunted they oughtso to do the Priests to deliuer to their Princes and others the worde of God and the true sense therof and the Prince and others oughte so to receiue of them the same word of God and the true sense thereof and not the priests owne deuises and expositions But since that none haue euer done more coÌ„trarie to this rule sythe it was first giuen by Moyses then haue the Popishe priestes had not Christian princes great néede to beware of Popishe Priests gloses and follow the councell of Lyra in reiecting them as other good Princes haue done to displace those false glosing priestes and place faythfull disyensers of Gods mysteries in their roomes and ouersée that their people be not deceiued in receiuing at the priests handes quid pro quo And for this cause the priest shoulde deliuer to his prince a perfect copy of the law which M. St. wickedly termeth the bare letter that killeth and thereto wresteth S. Paule wresteth this sentence of the iudiciall law among the Iewes for their time in the foresaide ciuill controuersies to be a simple rule for all christian common weales in all ecclesiastical causes excluding quite al iudgement from the prince including it in his Pope Priests alone iumbling the Prince and the people togither vnder the priests absolute determination
Where this place ioyneth togither as colleages the prince with the priest or rather ascribeth the skil in suche doubtes to be defined by the learned and faythfull priest and the full authoritie to giue iudgement and to ratifie the Priestes sentence in condemning the refusers to death and in approuing the receyuers to consist not in the high Priest but in the Iudge or Prince And thus this place that he would so fayne wrest euery way agaynst Christian Princes and for his Pope and popelings béeing well wayed and considered according to his owne request maketh nothing for his matter nor for his shauelings but cleane agaynst them And béeing better wayed and considered maketh nothing against the Bishops cause nor against christian Princes supreme gouernment in ouerséeing correcting such false priests but very muche for their duetie and chiefe authoritie therin M. St. hauing thus shamefully counterblasted the Byshops allegatioÌ„ to set a good face on an euilfauorde matter biddes the byshop go on and crieth out that he hath goâ—…ten the victorie that the bishop is at his first encouÌ„tring ouerblowne and discomfited euen with his owne blast And that it is not likely hereafter that he shall bring any thing to resolue his aduersarie But as God would haue it all these wordes are no blowes nor arguments but vayne triuÌ„phes before he haue gotten the victorie of the which he reckoneth him selfe so sure that he graunteth the Byshops other allegation Deut. 13. For as for the next place sayth he it enforceth no supremacie we freely graunt you that princes may sharply punish teachers of false and superstitious religion and Idolatrie beeing therof by the Priests instructed whiche is the matter of your texte This parenthesis M. St. beeing therof by the priests instructed is the levvde lying glose of your owne forge The text hath no such matter of the priests instruction but what thinke you doth enstruction more enforce an authoritie in the priest than powre to punish correct doth enforce an authoritie in the prince or doth this follow that bicause the prince by the priests enstruction doth punish false teachers Ergo he punisheth theÌ„ by the priests authoritie but as you fréely graunt that the prince may punish noughtie false and idolatrous priests so that the priests instructioÌ„ is any matter of the byshops text or that his instruction should more enforce authoritie ouer the prince than the princes punishment doth ouer false teachers is both euident false this we as flatly deny as you do fréely graunt the other Howbeit presupposing that we would also grauÌ„t him this that all things must still be done by the priests instruction But then sayth master Stap. take heede to your selfe master Horne and as though he him selfe were this instructour for I say to you sayth he that ye and your fellowes teache false and superstitious religion many and detestable heresies and so withall playne idolatrie In déede sir so ye say that full stoutly braying out with I say to you but thanks be to God ye do but say it to vs ye do not proue it to vs but and it were put to a double post might it not proue a worde of course and then take heede to your selfe master Stapl. for we not onely say to you but by the worde of God proue it to you that you and your felowes teach false and superstitious religion many and detestable heresies so withal plaine idolatrie c. and so haue ye giuen sentence agaynst your selfe haue told the magistrate his office to punishe you as false teachers that care not how ye falsifie wrest the scriptures to deface your aduersarie the vnskilfulnesse and vnfaythfulnesse wherwith ye falsly charge him euer double or treble redounding vppon your selfe The residue of your proces on these two chalenges of vnskilfulnesse vnfaythfulnesse I referre to your common places of rayling scoffes and slaunders and will answere to the thirde great faulte that ye finde in this diuision Nowe that ye bring out of Glossa ordinaria say you that the Prince is commanded by his princely authoritie to cause his subiectes to become Israelites it may perhaps be in some ordinarie glose of Geneua his notes Bales or some such like but as for the olde ordinary Latin glose I am right sure M. Horne it hath no suche thing Are ye right sure therof M. Stap and hath it no suche thing in déede will ye venter your poore honestie thereon I dare say ye would haue vs thinke that ye haue looked on the ordinarie glose whether any suche thing were there or no else would ye neuer for shame so boldly affirme it But what speake I of shame in so shamelesse a face that boldly dare auouche he is right sure there is no suche thing when if he had looked in the ordinary glose except he would of purpose looke from it he could scantly misse it euen at the first viewe The wordes of the glose vpon super Israel are these Benedictio est regnare super Israel 1. regnando facere Israel s. deum videntes It is a blessing to raigne ouer Israell that is to saye by raigning which the Byshop Englished by his Princely authoritie to make or cause to become Israelites that is to wete folkes seeing God. The Bishop Englished the sentence playnly by his Princely authoritie to cause his subiectes to become Israelites And what is here that is not onely in summe of sentence but in the very emphasis or force of the bare wordes all one with the glose and yet this moste impudent what should I call him vnskilfull or vnfaythfull lyer or both chalengeth the Bishop of vntruth and sayth he is right sure there is no such thing In what thing wil this man stick to outface the simple vnlearned that dare thus deale with such a lerned father and coÌ„mit it to print to be examined of any lerned reader and crake of such assurance as though he had poared ouer al the booke for it euen at the first chop he is found an open lyer But I doubt whether euer he looked on the booke at all but trusted some retchelesse superuisor For if he had looked but ouer the head of the verie texte Ut longo tempore regnet That he might long time reigne hée shoulde haue founde noted on this worde Regnet corporaliter spiritualiter That hee shoulde reigne or exercise his Princely authoritie a long tyme Bodily and spiritually not onely to haue a regiment in lay temporall and ciuile matters as M. St. affirmeth but euen in spirituall matters also And had he but looked a little higher on these wordes Legetque illud omnibus diebus vitae suâ—… He should read it all the days of his life He should haue found Vsus reddit magistrum the vse of reading the worde of God makes the king a maister in Gods worde that is to say a setter forth or teacher thereof as it were Upon whiche the
priests and Leuites in their offices and functions ecclesiasticall in appoynting howe the Arke shoulde be borne For sacrifising and blessing for ordeining Psalmes singers instruments officers and all other things for the setting foorthe of the diuine seruice and Gods true religion Whiche argueth that he was their supreme gouernour in all ecclesiasticall causes Master Stap. first for a briefe summarie answere to these doings of Dauid clappeth downe this marginal note Dauid in all these matters determined no doctrine nor altered any religion agaynst the Priestes willes of his owne supreme authoritie This note is bothe malicious and slaunderous as though we ascribed to the Quéenes Maiestie or she tooke vpon hir such authoritie and that of hir owne sway and wil against all hir Clergies minde and counsell to determine and alter what religion pleaseth or displeaseth hir This is the Popes clayme and tyrannie and not oure Princes or any other godly Princes dooing And yet this note is partly false for king Dauid agaynst the will of hys idle Priestes caused the misordering of the Arke to be reformed And did many other thinges about Religion to the which the Priests obeyed And determined doctrine also euen by master Stapl. owne confession in this Chapter The first argument that master Stapl. maketh is this Bothe M. Dorman and M. D. Harding affyrme that the proceedings of king Dauid are nothing preiudiciall to the ecclesiasticall authoritie in redressing of disorders before committed or doing suche thinges as are heere rehearsed Ergo They inferre no supreme gouernment ouer causes ecclesiasticall This argument standeth altogither vpon the authoritie of his good masters M. Dorman and M. D. Harding from whome he boroweth his stuffe For the moste of his owne surplusage is but his common places of descant on them And as they be so great in his bookes so he reasoneth as Pythagoras schollers had wont to reason of their master 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he sayde so Ergo it is so and thus argueth M. Stap. Bothe M. Dorman and M. D. Harding affirme it Ergo it is true But what do they affirme That the proceedings of king Dauid in redressing disorders before committed or doing suche things as heere are rehearsed are nothing preiudiciall to the ecclesiasticall authoritie Why M. Stap. who sayth against them or you herein king Dauids procéedings in deede were nothing preiudicial to the ecclesiasticall authoritie of persons ecclesiasticall they executed all their functions still belonging to their authoritie And bicause his procéedings in redressing suche disorders and all other things that he did declare moste plainly his supreme gouernement in setting foorthe and directing Gods true religion and yet were no preiudice to the Priests ecclesiasticall authoritie it followeth ther vpon that the supreme gouernment in setting foorth Gods true religion in correcting repressing ecclesiastical disorders in reducing and directing good orders and al other doings here rehearsed that ye confesse king Dauid did are no parte of the Priestes ecclesiasticall authoritie for then in doing them he should haue done things preiudicial therevnto and therfore they are no parts therof but of king Dauids royal authoritie And this while fondly ye woulde as it were ouerpresse vs with suche great mens authoritie as is M. Dorman M. D. Harding or euer ye be aware ye make them flatly giue verdite agaynst you with vs A Gods name bring their authoritie so agaynst vs as oft as ye wil neither M. Dorman nor M. D. Harding will giue ye great thanks therfore But for all this ye will bring vs more of D. Hardings stuffe As master D. Harding say you noteth king Dauids proceedings in redressing disorders before committed or doing suche things as are heere rehearsed do no more employ a supremacie in him then the reformation of religion made by Queene Mary But that ye wot well employeth in hir no suche supremacie Ergo No more do those procéedings in him This argument staÌ„deth wholly vpoÌ„ his M. D. Hardings authoritie alone bicause he hath noted that the one dyd no more than the other that their doings were alike héerein But the doings of the one inferre no supremacie Ergo the others neither But if we might be so bolde as to denie this your maior or rather your maxima or principle that ye build vpon of D. Hardings comparison in making king Dauids doings to be none other but such as were Quéene Maries Where were then your argument M. St ye talked righte now of Impar congressus Achilli Troilus the match betwene Troilus Achilles was vneueÌ„ but here is a gret deale more inferiour match betwéene K. Dauid Q. Mary Yea their doings were so little alike that they were cleane contrarie For although she were a princesse of famous memorie yet herein your popish Prelates made hir so beléeue them that she durst not redresse disorders in the Clergie at al but suffred the Pope and his prelates to reduce their false religion Nor she retayned the estate that belonged to hir of supreme gouernment but vtterly renounced it And therfore that reformation or rather deformation was not made at all by hir nor in hir name but by the Pope and his Popelings she only permitting it â–ª But if ye meane as ye speake that it was made by hiâ—… in dâ—…de as your Massers words are Queene Mary did it by the meanes of the Priest so that she was the doer and they were but the mâ—…anes she was the maker and they but hir instruments then your similitude goeth agaynst you and proueth a supremacie in hir as was in Dauid But ye speake colorably to make in suche a 〈◊〉 some proportion in speeche of a similitude For in very déede what soeuer ye say the matter went so that your popishe byshops and priestes were the doers of all And she good Lady was but your instrument and meane whereby ye killed Christ in his members as did the high priestes kill Christ in his body vnder Pontius Pilate I speake not to compare hir béeing hir selfe a noble Christian Prince to him béeing a heathen tyrant but to shewe how you abused hiâ—… authoritie as the Iewes did his But as for king Dauid as he did those things in redressing disorders and all other noted by the Bishop whiche your selfe can not denie so he was the principall in the dooing of them and he reformed euen the Priestes them selues And thoughe in some thinges he vsed the Priestes as meanes yet what dothe this infringe his supreme authoritie and not rather proue it And thus your other argument from D. Hardinges authoritie by D. Hardinges owne confession that they were but the meanes and king Dauid and Quéene Mary the doers of suche ecclesiasticall matters once agayne maketh quite agaynst you and your master D. Harding also and establisheth the Princes supreme gouernement ouer the priests and all I areade ye beware since ye stande so muche vpon your masters woordes héerein that if ye alleage hys authoritie any more
ye bryng hym foorthe to better purpose or else whyle yee thynke by clawyng hym thus to wynne hys good fauour yee gette hys heauy displeasure and that he answere ye flatly non hercule veniam tertio he will not come at your cal Howbeit ye will once agayne in hope of better lucke bring him foorth and alleage his authoritie better than ye haue done hitherto Besides that say you it is to be considered as M. D. Harding toucheth that he passed other Princes herein bicause he had the gifte of prophecie So that neither those thinges that the Apologie sheweth of Dauid or those that ye and master Nowell adde therevnto for the fortification of the sayde superioritie can by any meanes induce it This friuolous argument he was a Prophet also aswell as a Prince Ergo his superioritie in that he was a Prince can not be alleaged for other Princes to followe ye vsed before as your owne freshe stuffe to shifte off Moses ensample but as it nothing helped your cause then no more dothe it nowe Onely it detecteth héere your vayne crake there of vnspent stuffe where in déede it was olde rotten stuffe spent before by D. Harding on king Dauid as héere your selfe coÌ„fesse yet there ye brought it as a notable fresh surplusage beyonde all that had bene sayde But as you thus of D. Hardings olde scroppes héere would haue made vs there newe fresh stuffe of your owne wherby the alleaging of him agayne this third time openeth your shame so yet once agayne ye make your M. D. Harding and your selfe for companie confounde your owne tales and speake contrarie to your selues Right now ye sayde and alleaged your masters authoritie for it that king Dauids doings were no more than Queene Maries doings to employ a supremacie Nowe ye say agayne and like wise alleage your master for it that king Dauid passed other princes heerein bicause he had the gifte of prophecie If he passed other princes héerein then he passed Quéene Mary whome many other Princes haue also héerein passed and so his doings were more than were Quéene Maries doings héerein For who knowe not that she was no Prophete and thus the oftner ye alleage your master ye take your master tardie in one lie or another and make him still contrarie both himselfe and his cause also Againe it King Dauid were a Prophete as I graunt he was a Prophete ye wote might and did determine doctrine but your selfe sayde before Dauid in all his doings determined no doctrine and thus ye lie on your owne head and make your master witnesse thereto Well leaue at the length to cite your masters authorities for shame master Stapleton since ye can bring them out no handsomer or howe well so euer ye haue brought them out to your aduantage since they be no better proues than that He affirmeth he noteth he toucheth as though all were gospell that master Doctor Harding affirmeth noteth or toucheth Are ye so fond to thinke any man would yéelde so soone vnto them vnlesse he were as wise as your selfe But since none of all these reasons will serue we shall now haue other stuffe of your owne though not very fresh but such stale refuse as your masters haue refused but to you all is fishe that commes to nette ye do wisely to let go nothing that maye any waye be wrested to helpe so yll a cause And first ye reason from the authoritie of the scripture In déede this is a better way than to reason from D. Hardings authoritie The Scripture say you in the sayde place by you and master Nowell alleaged sayth that Dauid did worke iuxta omnia quae scripta sunt in lege dominâ—… according to all things written in the lawe of God. What conclusion can ye inferre hereon agaynst the Bishops allegation of Dauid Ergo he had not an especiall care and regard in ordring and setting forth Gods true religion if ye make the quite contrarie conclusion He did worke according to all things written in the lawe of God Ergo as the B. sayth he had an especiall care and regard in ordring directing Gods true religion then should ye make a most true conclusion where otherwise rightly applied it can no ways serue your turn Thus bring ye out that which once again ouerturnes your cause and proues K. Dauids supreme gouernmeÌ„t And euen so the Q. Maiestie by this ensample of K. Dauid is taught to do the like as praysed be to god for hir therfore she foloweth wel herein the steps of K. Dauid doing iuxta omnia quae scripta suÌ„t in lege domini according to all things written in gods law And where the papists in al their errors this amoÌ„g other of the supremacie do praeter coÌ„tra omnia quae scripta sunt in lege domini besides against all things writteÌ„ in gods law As Dauid redressed eccl. disorders crept in before his time so the Q. highnes now hath redressed such disorders as she fouÌ„d before hir time crept in Thus the more ye reason the more stil ye make against your selfe Ye had néed adde some better stuffe thaÌ„ this or els if ye thus hold on your friends wold wish M. Fec had hired ye to hold your peace when he first moued you to plead for him Master Stap. séeing it now more than high time to adde some notable thing to better his cause VVherevnto I adde sayth he a notable saying of the scripture in the sayd booke by you alleaged concerning Dauids doings by you brought foorth touching the Priestes and Leuits Vt ingrediantur domum dei iuxta ritum suum sub manu Aaron patris corum sicut prâ—…ceperat dominus deus Israel King Dauids appoyntment was that the Leuits and Priestes should enter into the house of God there to serue vnder the gouernment of whome I pray you not of King Dauid but vnder the spirituall gouernment of their spirituall father Aaron and his successours The gouernour of them was Eleazarus Upon this notable sentence for your purpose as ye thinke you gather thrée notes And bicause ye would go orderly ye begin first with the last note VVhere we haue to note first say you that Dauid appoynted hereto the Leuits nothing of himself But sicut praeceperat dominus deus Israel as the Lorde God of Israel had before appoynted VVe haue here againe to note first in you M. Stap. no plaine dealing that begin with the last part of the sentence first And wherefore I pray you but that that which is spoken here of this matter in especiall ye woulde make it séeme to serue for all Dauids doings in generall VVe haue to note againe your hacking and wresting of this sentence which sheweth a playne destination betweene theyr turnes of comming in and their ordinarie ministerie in theyr turnes in attending on the highe priest The text is thus â—…ae vices eorum secundum ministeria sua vt ingrediantur domum domini iuxta ritum
ouer the Reubenites and the Gadites and the halfe of the tribe of Manasses for euery matter perteyning to God and for the kings businesse that is to say both in spirituall and temporall things And also a little aboue In all the businesse of the Lorde and for the seruice of the King. Howbeit I speake not this so much to proue King Dauids supremacie ouer the Porters in all and euery ecclesiasticall matter so well as temporall but chiefly to followe your shift of the Prophetes For here we sée howe expresly the Prophets also were appoynted their orders by the king and euen the principall fathers of them attendant vnto him as their children were to them And thoughe theyr children were vnder theyr gouernmentes as were the inferiour Priestes vnder the higher Priestes yet as Asaph Heman and Iduthim were vnder the gouernment of the King also who ordered directed appoynted and coÌ„maunded them so was Aaron and his successors the high priests vnder the appointment and order of the King for all that their sonnes and inferior priests were vnderneath their gouernment For the one gouernment doth not exclude the other as master Stapleton himselfe confesseth that in one man many rulers may and do dayly concurre which in some sense may euery one be called his supreme gouernour And thus was first God by the ministerie of his priestes and prophetes the absolute supreme gouernour vnto Dauid So was Dauid next vnder God by his ouersight ordering and commaunding those ecclesiasticall actions to be rightly done the supreme gouernour not onely to the Leuits and Porters but to the chiefe Priestes to the chiefe Prophets and all And so were the chiefe priestes and principall Prophets in their functions and ministeries of theyr offices the supreme gouernors ouer their inferior priests prophets and yet was not their gouernment embarring the kings nor the kings any whit preiudicial to theirs For the priestes and the prophets did the action but the coÌ„maundements the appointing ordring was the kings next to god who coÌ„maunded them to him â—…e to the priests prophets And this order should M. St. haue séene had he but read the next sentence before the text that he vrgeth Secundum dispositioneÌ„ Dauid regis Gad videÌ„tu regis c. According to the commaundement or disposition of Dauid the king of Gad the kings Seer of visions and Nathan the prophet c. Thus the prince euen in those thingâ—… that god coÌ„maundeth by the hand of the prophets is chéef for his authoritie vnder god Next to whom are adioyâ—…ed the Prophets or learned preachers or ministers of Gods worde as by whose mouth or hande God commaundeth it to be done and haue mosts skill thereof And yet that both priest prophet do their offices faithfully apperteyneth to the kings coÌ„mauÌ„dement appéereth further throughout this chap. as also in Ezechias ensample froÌ„ whence be takes this seÌ„tence as we shall sée wheÌ„ we come therto Onely thus much to detect the shifts that M. St. maketh stil leaping from priest to prophet froÌ„ prophet again to priest as it were a squirrel skipping froÌ„ one trée to another to saue hir froÌ„ the birdbolt but all wil not be nothing wil any thing serue his turne but euery thing maketh quite against him which wheÌ„ he séeth as it were to set an Oliuer agaynst a Rowlande he alleageth agaynst king Dauids eusample the ensample of Carolus Magnus Againe saith he the like might you haue alleaged of Carolus Magnus that he corrected most diligently the order of reading and singing in the church that he brought first into Frauâ—…ce caâ—…tum GregorianuÌ„ the order of singing lefte by S. Gregorie at Rome and appoynted singers therfore when they did not well placed other in their rowmes And many such other like matters of the church wherin that godly Emperour much busied him selfe and yet exercised no supreme gouernment ouer the clergie but was of all other Princes most far froÌ„ it as it may easily appeare to him that wil read in the decrees dist 19. in memoriam where he protesteth obedience to the Sea of Rome yea though an importable charge should be layde vpon him by that holy Sea. Ye haue picked out an vnlike vneuen match M. St. to compare herein the doings of king Dauid with K. Charlemaines Where is become your Impar congressus Achilli Troilus the vnequall matche betwene Troilus and Achilles Howe corrupte the tyme of king Charlemayne was and what practises and fetches your Pope vsed to get the crowne of Fraunce to Pepin his father from the right and lawful prince therof and the Empire of Rome to Charlemayne froÌ„ the Emperour of Constantinople to whoÌ„ it dyd belong euery hiltoriographer can tel may fitter be declared in his proper place than here to leape ouer the stile ere ye come at it by many an hundreth miles yet for hast ye breake your shinnes euen agaynst those things that as trifles ye recken vp vnto vs As the correcting most diligently the order of reading and singing in the Church the placing and displacing singers if he did these things as a godly Emperor as ye say then he tooke it that as Emperor he had a gouernment in them But ye say as a godly Emperor he much busied him selfe If he found him self busines like a busie body wherin he had no authoritie thus so place displace to institute order and correct how was he a godly Emperour therin or not rather as ye sayd before played Oza his part But ye say he was therein a godly Emperour therefore he did nothing of any buâ—…iositie but of his owne authoritie and supreme gouernment therein Well yet say you it was but in singing and ouer singers Was it no further M. Stapleton howe then do you say the like you might haue alleaged of Carolus Magnus to King Dauids doings Did King Dauid meddle onely with singing and singers Did he not meddle with Priestes and Prophetes also But to salue the matter ye say and many other suche like matters of the Church Whie tell ye not man what those many other matters were haue ye no lust to declare them for feare they would marre your market Well let them alone till we come to the proper examination of them Howbeit whatsoeuer they shall fall out to be here remember ye liken them to King Dauids doings But King Dauid commaunded and appoynted singers Priests Prophetes all the clergie high and lowe of what degrée so euer Ergo King Charlemaines authoritie stretched further than to singing men euen to all Priestes Prophetes and all the clergie besides And thus eyther your similitude is not like or else the one and the other maketh cleane against you But if these doings of Charlemaine be not like yet hath master Stapleton another proufe in store Also in the decrees 11. Q. 1. which Iuo also alleageth where he renueth out of the Code of Theodosius a lawe binding all his subiects
of all Nations Prouinces and Countreys of what so euer qualitie or condition they were and in all maner causes if the defendant require an ecclesiastiall iudgement it be not lawfull from the Bishops sentence to appeale any higher This lawe is here brought forth master Stapleton very vntimely and impertinently nothing to proue or unproue the ensample or doings of King Dauid vnlesse ye woulde proue it on this wiâ—…e â—…uo alleageth a lawe of Theodosius binding all his subiects of all Nations Prouinces and Countreys of whatsoeuer qualitie and condition they were and in all maner causes if the defendant require an ecclesiasticall iudgement it be not lawful from the Bishops sentence to appeale any higher Ergo king Dauid made the like lawe to this or this was like to king Dauids lawes Howe thys hangeth togither like your Germaines lippes that before yâ—… spake of let others iudge King Dauids lawes were not for priests to be such Iudges but for priests to be subiect to these orders that they should obserue and obey them porter singer Leuit Priest or Prophet high or low of what qualitie or condition soeuer they were These lawes of king Dauid were as ye say by Gods commaundement by the mouth of his Prophets and therefore coulde not be yll The law you cite of Iuâ—… from Theodosius though at that time it were good vpon some godly consideration yet it is not ius diuinum the law of god it is but mans law the princes law sheweth a chief authoritie in him to giue such liberties to the clergie which as they may be very wel vsed especially when princes do looke well to them that they vse their gifts offices and priuileges dutifully so haue they since by your pope and prelates bene very ill vsed euen to the treading down of the doners of theÌ„ Theodosius Iuo or any other And as the Iuy taking al his streÌ„gth growth from the Oke so coÌ„passeth ouergroweth it and that by his gréene pleasant embracings of it till the Iuy haue quite destroied the whole bole of the Oke so haue your clergie by such franchesies liberties of princes at the first by compassing them with counterfeit holines subtile deuises so growne vp aboue them in riches strength and possessions that at the length ye haue destroied brought to nothing all their supreme estate ouer you For whereto bring ye out this priuiledge of the Emperor Theodosius that none might appeale to any higher sentence than the B. but as ye haue brought it now in the end to cal coraÌ„ vobis as your vnderling eueÌ„ the prince himself from whoÌ„ ye coÌ„fesse this your priuilege came And thus ye alleage king Iuo his lawes as it were an Iuy bush to behold how your popish prelates do play the Iuies part But it is hie time with other sharper lawes that princes pull vp such Iuies by the rootes Now as ye haue thus shifted off the answere to king Dauids doings redressings ordrings lawes and chiefe gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes so to knit vp the knot euen like a fawning Iuy about princes your selfe And surely say you no Prince more recognized their obedience to the spirituall magistrate in spirituall causes than such as were most readie and carefull to ayde further and to their power direct all spirituall matters This therefore proueth well that godly princes do further and set foorth godly religion by meanes seemely to their vocations Why master Stap. who desireth or attributeth more to Princes than to set forth Gods religion by meanes semely to theyr vocation If this ensample of Dauid as you say proue thus much then to gouerne direct commaunde and appoynt the Priests yea your hiest Priestes as Dauid did is no vnseemely meanes to their vocation nor vnsitting euen for your Popes vocation to obey the Princes appoyntment and commaundement And if to direct all spirituall matters may be done of Princes yet the obedience to the spirituall Pastor in spirituall matters still recognized then doth not the Quéenes Maiestie any preiudice to them recognizing to them a dutifull obedience in the ministration of spirituall matters for all that she fetteth forth Gods true religion and directeth all spirituall matters as ye graunt she maye Which is as much as the Bishop or any of vs desire or hir Maiestie taketh on hir But say you here is no maner of inckling that Princes do or did euer beare the supreme gouernment in all ecclesiastical matters to decide and determine to alter and chaunge to set vp and plucke downe what religion liked them by their princely authoritie and mere soueraigntie Haue ye gone about to impugne this all this while M. Stapleton then I see well it was not for nothing that alwayes ye aunswered so wide Ye needed not haue sought so many shifting corners The Bishop proponed one thing and you aunswered another Doth the Bishop maintaine or euer sayde that Princes might decide determine alter chaunge set vp pluck downe what religion liked them by their Princely authoritie and mere soueraigntie Quote me the lease name me the place where once the Bishoppe so said Or doth the Q. Maiestie take any such thing vpon hir These be but your wicked I had almost sayde traytâ—…rous slaunders to desace hir highnesse to hir simple subiectes And no doubt so ye report to other Countreys of hir Maiestie as ye write here most opprobiously agaynst hir It is your Pope agaynst whom ye should make this conclusion for he taketh on him to decide and determine to alter and chaunge to set vp and pluck downe what religion liketh him The Quéenes Maiestie God be highly praysed for hir as a most godly supreme gouernour feloweth king Dauids ensample and neyther your wicked conclusion toucheth hir nor these your shifting counterblasts come nere the matter in hande The. 14. Diuision AFter King Dauid the Bishop alleageth the wise King Salomon his sonne citing a briefe summe of his actes that inferre his supreme authoritie For answere to this Master Stapleton chooseth out one act of Salomon as a full aunswere to all the rest besydes and sayth The weight of this obiection resteth in the deposition of Abiathar the high Priest. The weight of this aunswere resteth first vpon a manifest vntruth The Bishop alleaged besides Abiathars deposition the placing of Sadocke the placing of the arke in the temple of Salomon the dedication of the temple the offring sacrifices blessing the people directing the Priestes Leuites and other Church officers after his fathers orders and the Priestes obedience in euery thing to the kinges commaundement none of these obiections resting on Abiathers deposition Onely the néerest that commeth to it is the placing of Sadocke in Abiathars roome And yet sayth M. Stap. the weight of this obiection resteth in the deposition of Abiathar the high priest And so thinketh if he fully aunswere this he hath satisfied all the rest Nowe since M. Stapleton
will néedes haue it so and hath prepared himself onely to aunswere the deposition of the high Priest as the highest and principallest matter be it so let vs go forwarde with him and sée his aunswere thereto Although hereafter he must remember that if the placing and displacing of prelates be a matter of such importance as in déede it is to this present purpose that the answering of it includeth diuerse other weightie poyntes also then the inuestiture of Bishops is not so impertinent a matter as nowe and then he will sée me to make it being vrged therewith He must remember also that making all other obiections to rest on this as chiefe if he answere not this then both all the other be vnaunswered and this being a chiefe matter doth quite ouerthrow all his counterblast besides and brings his pope to his olde obedience yea in case also of lyke deposition to Abiathars Wherefore it standes him now in hande to answere well and surely vnto this obiection To go therefore like a profounde clerke déepely séene in the doctours the more authentically to worke he first presseth vs with the authorities of his good masters This thing sayth he Master Dorman and Master doctor Harding say employeth no more superioritie than if a man should say Queene Mary deposed Master Cranmer But Queene Marie was not the chiefe but an accessorie instrument for the furtherance of the execution Ergo Salomon in deposing Abiathar was not the chiefe but an accessorie instrument for the furtherance of the execucution Ye are much in Master D. Hardings debte already master Sapleton for much good stuffe that ye haue borrowed of him especially this example of Quéene Mary and Bishop Cranmer which I perceiue ye like full well therefore ye will borrowe it once againe and bicause master Dorman borrowes it out of him also ye will borrowe it of both neuerthelesse so that they haue the praise thereof that vsed it before you And therefore to gratifie your masters againe mulus mulum scabit for one mule as the latine prouerbe saith rubbes another mule you euer referre vs to their high authoritie saying I say with master D. Harding I say with master DormaÌ„ D. Har. sheweth master Dor. and master D. Harding affirme M. D. Harding noteth M. D. Harding toucheth and here master Dor. and master D. Harding say it imployeth no more Thus ye thinke to saue your credite with them to obiecte their credence and authoritie to vs But in thus doing either ye shewe a great arrogancie in them or an extreame flatry in your selfe with no lesse folly to frame your argument on their bare sayings and obiect it to vs for good authoritie they being parties aduersary besides God wotte their litle estimation euen among your selues Although herein taking witnesse thus one of another what is it else than to aske your owne fellowes if you say true or no Let go therefore your masters authoritie and if ye will néedes alleage them alleage their reasons if they haue any and tel vs not they say iâ—… imployes no more but proue you or alleage their proues that it employes no more Ye vrge the doings of Quéene Marie how litle they imployed but ye take pro concesso and not to be denyed to your Master that their doings were alike â–ª wheras they were most vnlike and quite contrary Quéene Mary ye say was but the accessorie instrumente therein to the high prieste which is ye say the Pope but Salomon deposing the high priest that as ye likewise say was the figure of your Pope how could he be an accessorie instrumente to the high priest when he sat vppon him gaue indgemente against him and deposed him was the high priest the principall doer of it against him selfe and Salomon but his accessorie instrument indede your high priests beare princes so in hande that no body can sit in iudgement on them or depose them but they must do it them selues or else it can not be done Abiathar neuer learned that knacke but was iudged and deposed of his prince for all he was the highest priest nor the prince was his instrument thereof for then had he not bene deposed at all he would not haue made an instrument to Salomon to depose him selfe But Salomon did it against the will of Abiathar being a traytor to him nor he did it as the other priestes accessorie instrumente for aâ—… the other priests were inferiour to their high priest and the inferiour your lawe saith and good reason to can not depose the superiour Ergo he was accessarie instrument to no liuing creature herein but did it by his owne royall authoritie and therfore by this royall authoritie he was supreme gouernour ouer the priests yea the highest priest and all Nowe contrariwise Quéene Mary did not depose the highest priest which you say is your pope of Rome and not the Archbishop of Caunterbury excepte ye will translate your primacie froÌ„ Rome to Canterburie She wrongfully deposed the archbishop of Cant. or rather as ye say was but an accessorie instrument to the furtherance of the execution For so in very déede ye vsed hir while your Romish Pope his legats and prelats were the doers thereof she sate not on hym in iudgemente nor gaue sentence agaynste hym as did Salomon againste Abiathar and had she done so as ye woulde not haue allowed hir dooing so would ye not allowe him to be the highest priest And if ye will néedes haue it that their doings were alike then as King Salomon deposed by his princely authoritie the chiefe Bishop so after your account that the Byshop of Rome is the chiefe Bishop she should haue deposed the Bishop of Rome which she did not but set him vp in hir realme euen aboue hir selfe where he was before put downe so that these doings being in euery point contrary how are King Salomons doings with the high priest Abiathar like to the doings of Quéene marie to Bishop Cranmer and therefore this is but a shifting aunswere of your Masters olde stuffe and you are but their accessorie instrument to burnish it a freshe which ye doso yll fauouredly that your master or you can take little honestie by it Ye alleaged this comparison of Q. Mary out of your Master once before that Quéene Mary redressed religion but by the meanes of the Priests What is the meane wherby one doth any thing but the accessorie instrument whereby he doth it And what is the accessorie instrument but the meane But the Priestes ye say are the meane for the Prince to doe it by Ergo the Priestes were but the accessorie instrumentes to the Quéene Which if it were any abasing of the Princes superioritie whie is it not an abasing of your Priestes And as ye make these shiftes thus in the ende fall out against your cause so can ye not agrée in your owne tales to your selfe In the ensample of Dauid the Quéene was the represser and the Priests were the
means or instrument in this cause of Salomon where your Pope by his figure as you say the high priest is so nere touched with an example of depriuation There contrary to that ye tolde vs before the highe Priest him selfe must be the represser and the Prince but the meane or instrument And thus it séemeth ye care not what ye say for you or agaynst you so ye maye shift of the matter in one place though in another ye speake quite contrary And thinking to beare your selfe out with your masters authoritie yée make your master partaker of your shame besides the shame that they haue for their shamefull shiftes receyued alreadie at the Bishop of Sar. and master Nowels hands But here thinking to be euen with master Nowell for confuting this vnlike similitude vsed also as newe freshe stuffe by master Dorman But Lord sayth he howe master Nowell here besturreth him selfe Nowe when the Reader should looke howe here master Stapleton would besturre him selfe to bring ought against master Nowell he dare alleage nothing it was but a copie of his countenance He fumeth and he fretteth with master Dorman sayth he who shall coole him well ynough I doubt not In the meane while I will aske master Horne and master Nowell to one question Yea forsooth master Stapleton I like your witte nowe better than before demaunde what you will but chalenge not the combat so fast as ye did ere while cumber not your selfe with more aduersaryes than ye néede ye shall finde more ease in the ende Go to therefore and propounde your question Master Horne sayth say you a little before that Iosue sacrificed burnt sacrifices and burnt offrings that king Dauid sacrificed burnt and peace offrings that Salomon offred sacrifices VVere trow ye Iosue Dauid and Salomon priests If so then how bring you their ensamples to proue any thing for Kings and Queenes that are no Priestes If not then this phrase is verefied in that they caused the Priestes to whome the matter pertayned to offer sacrifices And so whereas M. Horne sayth of Iosue that he sacrificed burnt sacrifices which is agreeable to the latine obtulit holocausta master Nowell sayth he commaunded sacrifice to be offred Thus farre your question to the Bishop and your dilemma thereon To the question I aunswere that neither Iosue Dauid nor Salomon were priestes if not say you then by your owne words and master Nowels this phrase is verefied that they caused the priests to offer sacrifices I graunt ye master Stapleton and it was graunted to you many tymes before by the Bishop what inferre ye herevppon And why then I pray you M. Nowell say you turning your speche to him may not this phrase also be taken after the said sorte that Salomon deposed Abiathar in procuring him by some ordinarie way to be deposed for his treason as master Cranmer might haue bin though he were deposed and burnt for his heresie Here is a matter farre fette or euer the inconuenience breake out In the ende thanks be to God this is the worst conclusion and why may not this phrase also of deposing be taken after the said sorte of sacrificing I aunswere that to reason from may to must either must or may be but a mustie reason I had thoughte this déepe question and this lustie dilemma vppon it woulde haue concluded with a necessitie this phrase of deposition muste be so resolued as the other of sacrifice and commeth it now in like a poore hedgecréeper with a perchaunce that it maye bée so resolued parturiunt montes nascitur ridiculus mus the mountaynes trauaile out there péepes a mouse But nowe since ye conclude no furder but that it may be so what if one would doubte of your may bird and like a good simple plaine dealing man wold bluntly say to your may Perawnter yea sir perawnter nay sir and bid ye reason more substantially than to stand on a peraduenture that it may be so But since ye will nedes know why the one phrase may not be vnderstoode like the other I will not only shew you why they may not but also why they must not The phrases on the one parte of Iosues Dauids and Salomons sacrifices mighte not be done personally by them bycause they were no priests but it must haue bin done by the priests bicause it was the priests especiall office appointed of God But in this other case of deposition Salomon not only might either commaund or execute personally or by his deputie but of dutie ought to haue deposed that naughtie high priest bicause on the one parte it was no especiall or any part at all of the priestes office appointed by God to depose their high prest nor the inferiors cold depose their primate on the other parte only the king could do it did it and ought to do it bicause it appertayâ—…ed to his royall estate and was appointed by God thereto And thus ye sée the phrases are not alike neither may nor must be resolued the one by the other as ye say in your coÌ„clusion SalomoÌ„ deposed Abiathar in procuring him by some ordinarie waye to be deposed for his treason What some ordinarie way should this be that ye tell vs thus generally he mighte procure If it were for the lower to depose the higher it was no ordinarie way If it were by the other priests it was by the lower If it were by some Prophete it was extraordinarie and yet ye pull downe the Prophetes and all vnder the priests especially vnder the high priest If it were by the princes procurement ye say the prince is also inferior durst any inferior at an other inferiors commaundement or procuring attempte to depose their superiour yea their supreme your Pope wold giue ye little thankes and he hard ye harpe on that string master Stapleton By what ordinarie way then shuld it be done who shoulde haue done it who shoulde haue procured it Can ye deuise any excepte the ordinary power that God gaue the Prince had byn the procurer doer and all thereof Nowe that ye haue put foorthe youre question made youre dilemma lapte vp youre conclusion and nothing still serueth your turne but more againste you shall I be so â—…old as to demand of you agayne euen your owne questioÌ„ and adde another dilemma of your owne wordes thereto VVere trow ye Iosue Dauid and Salomon priests If so then howe say ye here this phrase they sacrificed is verefied in that they caused the priests to whom the matter perteyned to offer sacrifices And why vse ye all the shiftes ye can to abase their doinges If no Whie sayde ye then thrée leaues before of Iosue If yee will haue your examples to proue confirme then as Iosue circumcided so let the prince baptise and as Iosue sacrificed vpon an aultar so let the prince in cope and surplesse celebrate your holy communion Did Iosue circumcise and sacrifice personally him selfe and was no priest I speake
this onely to shewe your shifting off of your aduersarâ—…e on the one part and your contradiction to your selfe on the other euen in your owne question Although herein if ye say they were no priestes which this your later exposition contrary to the first inferreth ye say the truer and therefore doe well to recant your former saying But sée howe ye contrary your selfe once agayne ye liken the phrase of deposition and sacrificing togither Salomon deposed Abiathar in procuring by some ordinarie way to haue him deposed And Iosue Dauid and Salomon did sacrifice in that they caused the Priestes to offer sacrifice Here the Prince when he will haue sacrifice done causeth the priest to minister and execute the sacrifice and so the Prince doth it by the Priestes handes Who is here the instrument for the furtherance of the execution the priest For the Prince can not except ye will make him a priest Who is the causer as ye call him and such a causer as hath the name of the doer though he do it not but haue an accessorie instrument for him the Prince Doe ye not sée what an ouerthrow ye giue your selfe and withall speake cleane contraryes not a dosen lynes asunder The Prince is not the chiefe but an accessorie instrument to the furtherance of the execution the Prince is the causer and doer but he doth it by an others execution Is not this plain contradiction and yet to helpe the matter ye let another on the necke of it As Iosue and Dauid did sacrifice so did Salomon depose Abiathar Salomon was the minister and executer Iosue and Dauid were not the ministers and executers If these things be a like this is another manyfest contradiction If they be not a like why bring ye them one for proufe of another Why affirme ye them to be alike when the doyng of the one by your owne report is contrary to the other Eyther ye lie in saying they be alike or ye speake huddle and ouerthwart your selfe And yet while ye would séeme nicely to stande descanting on the phrases be it vnwares or wittingly ye graunt the full point of the matter that in the sacrifices and the deposition whosoeuer were the executor the Prince was the procurer the causer and the commaunder therof which is ynough to argue his supreme authoritie therein Your conclusion is he was deposed by the Princes procurement for his treason And who was this that thus was delt withall for sooth the highest priest Why the highest priest is ye say the figure of your Pope was the figure of your Pope then a traytor I trust ye will tell a good tale for your Pope anon Nay will ye say the Pope can not be a traytour nor be deposed bicause he is the highest priest And what say ye to Abiathar the successour of Aaron was not he the highest Priest also If he were not name an higher And yet sée his seate saued him not from being a traytor nor his highnesse from being vnder the prince that deposed him And had he not béene vnder his Prince he could not haue bene a traytour to him A traytour is he that reuolting from his dutifull obedience to his Prince rebelleth or conspireth agaynst him But ye say Abiathar was a traytour Ergo he ought a duetifull obedience to his Prince from the which he swarued Now if that hiest Priesthood which as ye say was a figure of the Popes highest Priesthoode was neuerthelesse obedient to the Princes royall authoritie and the highest priest might be a traytour in swaruing from his obedience then the Bishop of Rome hauing nowe likewyse the highest Priesthoode as ye pretende ought neuerthelesse to bee the Emperour of Romes obedientiarie and if he swarue from his obedience as was Abiathar he is a traytour and ought to be deposed as Abiathar was But howe well he hath set the paterne of Abâ—…athars trâ—…ason before his eyes and farre passed it in conspiring rebelling against the Emperor of Rome and in the end hath exempted himselfe from all obedience of the emperiall estate denying that he can be a traytor therto but contrary that the emperor oweth obedience vnto him it is so manifest that your selues can not deny it Only therfore it now remayneth that all other princes in their signiories as the Quéenes Maiestie hath done in hirs take ensample of wise king Salomons supreme gouernement in deposing this traterous Abiathar And thus thinking to deface the memorie of the blissed martyr Bishoppe Cranmer that neuer conspired agaynst his prince that neuer claymed supremacie ouer his prince that neuer tooke hym selfe to be the highest Priest that in hys lyfe lyued lyke a moste godly father and in his death behaued himselfe as mylde as a Lambe ye haue no whitte Master Stapleton blemished hys renowne yea your disprayse redoundeth to hys greater prayse Neyther doth your masters nor your similitude of him to Abiathar agree in any poynt onely with your Pope it agréeth and that as you sée in euerye poynte so iumpe that as hée claymeth Abiathars chiefest place as hée hath practysed more than Abiathars treason so Chrisâ—…yan Princes followyng King Salomons steppes shoulde giue hym also Abiathars rewarde And were that or thys Abiathar neuer so muche the highest Priest Christian Princes haue the same authoritie nowe to depose lowest and highest also that Salomon had before except Maister Stapleton haue yet some further shifte to delude thys fact of Salomon But nowe master Horne saith he that Salomon was but a minister and an executer herein the verie wordes immediately following the which bicause they serue plainely against your purpose you craftily dissembled do testifie And here he fastneth a triumphant note in the margine Master Horne ouerthrowne concerning the deposition of Abiathar by the very next line of his owne text guilefully by him omitted Here is of a sodaine a sore a doe in déede Salomon shall be proued but a minister and an executer herein by the plaine wordes of the scripture The Bishop shall be proued a craftie dissembler and a guilefull omitter of those wordes And by those wordes he shal be quite ouerthrowne May the matter go by M. Stap. wordes these wordes giue a very boisterous Counterblast But since he will proue it by the scripture let vs heare not his but the scriptures wordes and his conclusion thereon The wordes are these And so Salomon put away Abiathar from being Priest vnto the Lorde to fulfill the wordes of the Lorde which hee spake ouer the house of Hely in Silo. Ergo Salomon was but the minister and executor of Gods sentence published before by Samuell the Leuite What doth this infringe the Bishops purpose or ouerthrow his assertion master Stap can ye conclude hereon he was not the supreme gouernour next vnder God in doing of the fact because he was the minister and executor of gods sentence By this rule the Prince were not supreme gouernour vnder God in any poynt
the marke many tymes than from it But séeing ye deale so vneuenly with the Bishops other shottes for all your bellowing short shorte it hittes not the Butte it commes not home ye giue all standers by suspition of falâ—…e ayme in this shotte and therefore let vs measure it once againe The deposing of Abiathar saye you doth not employ that Salomon was chiefe ruler in all ecclesiasticall causes I pray you who was then chiefe ruler in all ecclesiasticall causes Abiather say you And wherefore he bicause he was the highest Priest or Byshoppe therefore the chiefe rule of them was in him Doth it not then followe if he depose him in whome is all the rule that all this rule is yet restrayned vnder hys higher rule that deposeth him For the more manâ—…fest ensample of our time If I aske in whom the chiefe rule of all ecclesiastical causes is now in the Pope say you wherfore say I bâ—…cause say you he is the hiest Priest or Bishop and therefore he hath the â—…yest rule of all ecclesiasticall causes Well say I if the Emperouâ—… nowe woulde go aboute to cite the Pope to iudge him and tell him he is the childe of death for not acknowledging his olde obedience to him and so deposing hym bydde him departe and meddle no more with that Byshoprike the Emperour can not doe this say you for then the Pope in all ecclesiasticall causes shoulde be the Emperours inferiour if the Emperour might depose 〈◊〉 bicause when he is deposed by the Emperour from all his chiefe rule all his chiefe rule is translated from him and so were hée vnder the Emperour and all his chiefe rule at the Emperours disposition to giue to another But thys saye you were suche a fowle inconuenience as the lyke can not bée And therefore the Emperour can not depose the Pope but the Pope the Emperour This is your common reasoning Wherein doe ye not sée howe the graunting of the deposition of the chiefe Priest inferreth a hyer rule and authoritie in the deposer ouer the deposed in euerie prerogatiue that the partie deposed had before he was deposed But then will ye say the Prince that deposed the highest Priest may not he doe all those matters that the priest might haue done if hée bée the chiefe ruler of them It is one thing master Stapleton to be the chiefe ruler in and ouer all those ecclesiasticall causes that the partie deposed myghte haue done and to bée the chiefe doer or executioner of them For example the Prince maketh an Admirall or chiefe ruler ouer hys Seas a President or Deputie ouer hys Marches a chiefe Iustice or Chauncellour ouer hys lawes c. These Officers agayne the king deposeth the deposition of them is an argument that in all those thinges the King is the chiefe ruler And although the King can not doe anye of those thinges that belong to their Offices yet is that no impayring of hys chiefe rule ouer them and all thinges in theyr offices And therefore hée transferreth the doing to them that better can or wyll doe those offices And so likewyse in the chiefe office of priesthood admitting there were such an one now in all ecclesiasticall causes though the prince can not do all those ecclesiasticall actioÌ„s nor any one of them yet grant the prince that he may depose that chiefe priest to whome the doing of them appertaineth ye graunt with all that he is the chiefe ruler of all those ecclesiasticall things so farre forth as the rule of ouersight gouernance and directing stretcheth vnto which is aboue the ministeriall executing Nowe as youre selfe haue confessed the prince is the causer and the prieste the executor and doer which likewise his name importeth and therefore is called minister whiche name though the prince haue also yet he hath it as your selfe haue likewise confessed in a higher respecte bicause he is Gods especiall minister to ouersée directe dispose and depose all other ministers And thus graunting the ensample euen but of this one facte of Salomon for our princes to followe to depose in their realmes any one whatsoeuer highest or lowest priest it not only hitteth home the butte yea and the pricke to set vp by master FeckeÌ„ham but this one facte of Salomon and the like of christian princes now employeth a chiefe rule of ouer sight and direction though not of executing in al ecclesiasticall causes besides whatsoeuer appertayneth to the parties office that may be so deposed as Abiathar was by Salomon The vntruth that ye note in the end of this ensample is orderly aunswered in your beadrolle The. 15. Diuision TThe Bishop in this diuision alleadging the example of king Iosaphat chiefly of two visitatioÌ„s set forth by him 2. Paral. 17. and. 19. how he reformed religion through out all his dominions appointed preachers and setters foorth of Gods lawe and Iudges in all causes aswell ecclesiasticall as temporal coÌ„cludeth his supreme gouernment herevpon To this Master Stap. counterblasâ—…eth As M. Doctour Harding and M. Dorman haue written so say I that yee are they which frequent priuate hilles aulters and darke groues that the scripture speaketh of VVherein you haue set vp your Idols that is your abhominable heresies In that ye say master Stapleton As they say so say I ye shewe howe well ye haue learned your lessons thus one of another to say what soeuer your master sayd before you and take your bare so saying for proufe good inough But as ye fondly flatter your selues with your owne sayings so more fondly ye obtrude them as principles to your aduersaries that will by and by bid ye either proue them or else will they still estéeme them as they are for mere lying sayings of a knot of thrée false confederates the master his two schollers to outface delude the manifest truth withal And if these your masters sayings and yours hap to become wordes of course then beware you on whose side they are lykest to light that haue mainteyned so open Idolatrie and diuerse false worships of God that he did neuer institute After this master Stapleton drawing néerer to the matter admitâ—…eth this example of King Iosaphat VVee also confesse sayeth he that there is nothing written in the holye Scripture of Iosaphat touching his care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters but that godly Princes may at this day do the same doing it in such sort as Iosaphat did Holde ye here master Stapleton and we aske no more of you Ye haue here frankly confessed two things First the care and diligence that Iosaphat had aboute the directing ecclesiasticall matters Which care and diligence was the Bishoppes first proposition nowe twise alreadie graunted by you what followed thereon ye haue heard before alreadie Secondly that godly Princes may at this day doe the same doyng it in such sort as Iosaphat did Herevpon I conclude this argument As Iosaphat did in directing ecclesiasticall matters so doth the Queenes maiestie
nowe But all godly Princes ought so to do as Iosaphat did in directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo the Quéenes Maiestie doth now as all godly Princes ought to do To proue that she doth as did king Iosaphat your selfe confesse that he reformed religion and was carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters But the Queenes Maiesties clayme is none other herein but this to reforme religion and to be carefull and diligent about directing ecclesiasticall matters Ergo King Iosaphats doings and hirs are not vnlike But this importeth in hir a supreme gouernment Ergo King Iosaphats example hitteth home the Butte and is a fitte patterne to hir and all godly Princes of supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes Here séeing that for fashions sake where ye durst not denie the manifest truth ye haue graunted so much that in déede ye haue graunted all ye would now restraine your graunt and say it was conditionall that though all Princes may reforme religion and with care and diligence direct all ecclesiasticall matters yet they must do it in suche sort as Iosaphat did and therefore leauing your simple and generall termes of reformation and direction by godlye Princes yée will haue them perticulerly leueled by that sort that Iosaphat did them Whiche as we gladly graunt you in all thinges that Iosaphat did well and godly as were the moste of his doings and in al that which the Bishoppe rehearseth yet in some thinges Princes muste not doe in that sort but go beyonde him For althoughe for the moste part he did those thinges Quae placâ—…ta erant domino That were acceptable to the Lorde 〈◊〉 en excelsa non abstulit Notwithstanding he tooke not away the high places wherein godly princes muste do after a more zealous sort than Iosaphat did As for all those things that the Bishop citeth sée that ye stand to your graunt made vnto vs that Iosaphat reformed religion and vsed care and diligence about the directing of ecclesiasticall matters and then that godly princes may at this day do all the same And feare ye not but we will also graunt to you and not starte therefrom that they may reforme religion and directe ecclesiasticall matters in such sort as Iosaphat did And so excepte ye be disposed to quarell or will falsefie the sorte and manner of Iosaphats or the Quenes Highnesse doings I trust we shall anon agree herein They may do it say you in such sort as Iosaphat did that is to reforme religion by the priests First this is very subtilly spoken master Stapleton by the priests if ye meane by the aduise or godly counsell of the prestes true it is so might king Iosaphat well haue done If ye meane by the authoritie and commaundemente of the priestes then is it false nor you can euer proue that Iosaphat did it by theyr commaundement and authoritie but they contrarywise by his Nowe in suche sort as Iosaphat did hath the Quéenes Maiestie done and this proueth bothe their supremacies herein Not to enact say you a new religion which the priestes of force shall sweare vnto Indéede this did not Iosaphat no more hath the Quéenes Maiestie done it is but your surmised sclander Item to suffer the priests to iudge in controuersies of religion not to make the decision of suche things a parliamente matter This latter parte of your sentence is agayne but youre manifest sclander to suffer the priestes to iudge in controuersies of religion after the rule of Gods word and not after their owne pleasures in suche sorte Iosaphat not onely suffred but ordeyned them commanded and ouersaw them so to do and so doth the Quéenes maiestie And this sufferance commaundement and ouersight argueth their chiefe authorities Item not to prescribe a newe forme order in ecclesiasticall causes but to see that according to the lawes of the church before made the religion be set forthe as Iosaphat procuâ—…ed the obseruation of the old religion appointed in the lawe of Moyses And euen thus and none otherwise hath the Quéenes Maiestie procured the obseruation of the old religion of Iesus Christ whome Moyses prefigured and the orders of the apostles and most auncient fathers after them to be restored remouing as Iosaphat did all other newe formes and orders of ecclesiasticall abuses And this restoring and procuring of the aunciente religion and ceremonies the suppressing and abolishing of new is againe in both these princes a good argument of their supreme gouernement Briefly say you that he do all this as an aduocate defender and son of the Churche with the authoritie and aduice of the cleargie so Iosaphat furdered religion not otherwise Your word aduocate how it came vp is declared already but neither aduocate defender sonne or daughter herein are any thing contrary to supreme gouernour But where ye adde al these words aduocate defender and sonne to the prince and to the cleargy authoritie aduice this sheweth your subtile deuise to deceyue princes with youre paynted termes But princes begin to waxe wise and learned as Dauid exhorted them and perceaue howe ye haue foaded them with these names and stiles that were but nomen sine re a bare name without any matter for the authoritie and aduice ye reserued to your selues The princes to whome ye gaue these gay titles had neither authoritie nor might giue their aduice according as Hosius woulde not haue them so much as to talke of matters of religion much lesse to reforme religion to directe ecclesiasticall matters with care and diligence as before ye graunted And nowe to eate againe your worde ye woulde haue them be carefull and diligent without aduice reforme and direct without authoritie of their owne except onely the clergies aduice and authoritie Thinke ye Iosaphat did so not otherwise as ye sayâ—… ye may well tell vs so but the Scripture telleth vs otherwise howe he gaue aduice to the Clergie and by his authoritie directed them though I denie not he might vse their aduice and admitte their authoritie to yet the supreme authoritie apperteyned vnto him Not say you as a supreme absolute gouernour contrary to the vniforme consent of the whole clergie in full conuocation yea and of all the Bishops at once This worde absolute is but your absolute and malicious slaunder M. Stap. Such absolute supreme gouernment did your Pope vsurpe as sayth Franciscus de Ripa that the Popes power is absolute and that he may do what he will. As Baldus in the proheme of the decrées alleageth that his power is absolute from all bondes and from all rule of restraint And that we must beléeue him absolutely as Marcus Mantua and Pope Boniface himselfe affirmeth Thus doth not the Quéenes maiestie no more did king Iosaphat and therefore I inferre the conclusion that the Queenes Maiestie doth all these things in such sort as losaphat did them excepting these quarelous slaunders which are your owne put them vp in your purse agayne master Stapleton and
then shall ye finde the sort and manner of the doings of the one Prince and the other alike and so I conclude with your owne conclusion Thus the example of Iosaphat fitteth well Christian Princes he vsing the same supreme gouernment then that the Quéenes Maiestie now doth nor ye can alleage any thing to the contrary but certaine manifest slaunders Whervpon it followeth that the Q. taketh none other authoritie vpoÌ„ hir than Iosaphat did and all godly Christian Princes ought to doe the like the one ensample fitting the other euen as your selfe confesse Now that M. St. by this most cleare confession graunt hath yelded so farre in this example that he hath contraried not only M. Dor that denied it to be a fit example froÌ„ Kings in the old law to kings in the new but contrary also to himself that denied before any example at al to be fit telling vs that legibuâ—… non exemplis iudâ—… atur Men must iudge by lawes and not by examples And here he sayth that this example fits well christian princes thereon hath concluded already the full matter in question neither â—…e can find any thing in the Q. maiestyes doings swaruing from Iosaphats but certain of his owne mere slauÌ„ders he startleth and besturreth himself with euery tristing quarrell picking fault at traÌ„slations at the print of the letter such like things to occupie the readers head withall least he should perceiue marke how the weight pith of the matter is alredy graunted and concluded by his owne mouth confession And here he chalengeth the B. with wretched shameful bandling of the holy scriptures This is a sore fault indéed if it were true but how proueth he this First promising verye sadly in his preface sayth he to cause his authors sentences for the part to be printed in latine letters here coursing ouer three seuerall chapters of the 2. of Paralip he setteth not downe any one part or worde of the whole text in any latine or distinct letter but handleth the scriptures as pleaseth himselfe translating mangling and belying them beyond all shame For the translation we shall sée afterward M St. what you chalenge therin in the mean season we may well sée how hard it goeth with you in that ye are faine to séeke such brabling matters as this which is but a petit quarel and that false also The Bishop euen as your selfe confesse did but course ouer that is did but touche the summe effect of those matters not set out word by word the text as he hath not chauÌ„ged the letter hitherto in the like doing ye find no fault there with Neither did the B. bind him selfe in translating to euery worde but so to set out their minds seÌ„teÌ„ces which word minds ye haue left out also for these words for the most part ye haue put in for the part Thus do ye order the Bishops sentence in setting it foorth in a distincte letter as though he had so said which in déede is the part of wretched and shamefull handling and belying beyond all shame especially to vpbrayde it to another to shewe the more impudeÌ„cie of your selfe therin As for the Bishop only shewing the effect of the matter and not the words nor going about there to translate at al it was lawfull for him to vse his common print his promise still obserued when he translated any thing You youre selfe vse this commonly in translating not onely to kéepe your ordinarie forme of letter but therby to haÌ„dle the scrip ture as it pleaseth you But now in this the Bishops summarie draught out of all those three aforesayde chapters let vs sée what it is that ye chalenge him for so sore He telleth vs say you of the kings visitours of a progresse made in his owne person through out all his countrey and of Iustices of the peace whereas the texts alleaged haue no such words at all It is easie to sée howe enuy or proud follie blindeth thys maÌ„ that reprehendeth the Bishop as missetelling the effect of a sentence and him selfe in distincte letter going about to set out the Bishops words as he did before cannot or will not repeate the same aright were these the bishops words kings visitors Iustices of the peace â–ª the bishops words wer these He seÌ„t forth through his kingdom visitors again he appointed in euery towne through out his kingdome as it were Iustices of the peace Why will ye say thys is al one it is so in effecte master Stapl. and so they were the kings visitours But yet should you here tell the bare wordes that the Bishoppe alleaged and if you may be blamelesse in saying you tell the effect summe of the sentence may not then the same saying bishop also and a gret deale more bicause as ye say he did but course ouer three chapters briefly and therefore coulde not easily expresse the bare texts But you might easily noting but two or thrée little sentences haue set them downe playne I speake this the rather for that that followeth Ye say the bishop telleth of Iustices of the peace The bishop only said as it were iustices of the peace as who should say suche officers then as a man might liken to our petit iudges or iustices of the peace now But thus ye euer loue to wrest the Byshops words that ye may make the feater entrance into one of your common places saying Verily suche a tale he telleth vs that his ridiculous dealing herein were it not in Gods cause where the indignitie of his demeanour is to be detested were worthily to be laughed at Are the stories of the Scripture become tales to this Louanist are the visitations and progresse of this godly king that right nowe was with him a fitte ensample for christian princes become now ridiculous dealing and worthily to be laughed at or indignities to be detested suche were in déede the Popishe visitations As for that the byshop citeth is manyfest in the scripture The king sent out his Princes and preachers as the summe of the chapter in your olde translation sayth mittit praedicatores per vniuersam Iudeam he sendeth on t preachers throughout all Iewry Whervpon Lyra noteth hic ostenditur qualiter populum suum instruxit scilicet per sacerdotes Leuitas quos ad hoc misit cum eis aliquot de principibus suis vt populum inducerent ad obedientiam punirent rebelles si quos inuenirent Heere is declared how he instructed his people to wite by the Priests and Leuites whom he sent to this purpose and with theÌ„ certaine of his Princes to moue the people to obedience and to punish the rebellious if they should finde any Is it ridiculous or detestable dealing herein to name these parties visitours sent from the king were they not sent to him to visite the people reforme theÌ„ in religion Againe the bishop said he made a progresse
euen the name of Ministers as euen your selfe do M. St. other where how soeuer here it came vppon you to pretende to bestow a reuerent speach thereon But the Apostles thought not scorne of the name but willed men so to estéeme them as the ministers of God and the dispensers of his mysteries but as your papall Bishops and Priestes be nothing like Gods ministers so least of all are they like the Prophets that were then except ye meane the prophets of Baal that maintayned idolatrie and pleasant leasings to maintayne them selues at Achabs table and fill their paunches with the chéere of Beel and the Dragon The Lords prophets they be not like neither in preaching propheciyng or ought els And yet saith M. Stapl. they be the onely ministers of God now in spirituall matters as prophets were then in the like Why M. Stapl. were the prophets then onely gods ministers in spirituall matters if ye say no how doth your tale hang togither why say ye they are onely Gods ministers now as Prophets were then in the like since the Prophetes were not onely Gods ministers then as ye pretende for your Bishops and Priestes to be onely now If they were not onely then no more be yours only now admitting they were in the like If ye say yea they were onely then Gods ministers as the Bishops and Priests be now what were the Bishops Priestes and Leuites then that were no prophetes were not they Gods ministers in spirituall matters also if yea then were not the Prophets in the like to your Bishops and Priestes that are as ye say only gods ministers now Make your tale for shame hang better togither and withall tell what you meane by this dubble shuffling Ye tolde vs before that your Bishops and Priestes now are like the Bishops and Priestes then and that not the Prophets but the Priestes had that prerogatiue which ye haue so often craked vpon your generall rule of iudgemeÌ„t whereby ye vrged then a supremacie not in the Prophets but in the Bishops Priests And now seing that ye caÌ„ not proue it in these examples where the Bishops Priests obey the Princes ordinance as his inferiours ye shift of the matter to the Prophetes say now your priests prelates succéede are like the Prophetes let go the former claime of priests But these are but your shifts for if the Prophets had this supreme gouernment then the priests had it not If it appertained to the hie priestes chayre so long as the priesthoode of Moses continued then it belonged not to the Prophetes and thus ye contrary your selfe But in very déede neither of theÌ„ both had it but the Prince vnder god They were both Gods ministers in their diuerse functioÌ„s and yet subiecte to their Princes as for the popish Bishops and priestes are like to neither of both The. 17. Diuision THe Bishop with the like example of Iosias concludeth his collection of the Princes in the Old Testament and herevppon maketh in effect this reason All these doinges of these kinges are commended as acceptable seruice and right in the sight of God But the clayming taking vppon them the supreme gouernment ouer the ecclesiasticall persons of all degrees the ruling gouerning and directing them in all their functions in al manner causes belonging to religion were the doings of all these kinges Ergo For Princes to clayme and take vppon them the like supreme gouernment is their right and acceptable seruice in the sight of God. The counterblast of master Stapleton to this diuision is thrée folde First to the example of Iosias Secondly to the argument Thirdly by setting vp newe issues and markes to improue all that the Bishop hath hitherto exemplified as vnsufficient to proue the issue To the first part sayth Master Stapleton King Iosias traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie VVhat then so doe good catholike Princes also to plucke downe the Idolles that yee and your brethren haue of late set vp and yet none of them take them selues for supreme heades in all causes spirituall This is all that he aunswereth to the example of Iosias First where the Bishop sayd Iosias had the like care to the foresayde Princes for religion and vsed in the same sorte his Princely authoritie in reforming all abuses in al maner causes ecclesiastical To this aunswereth master Stapleton He traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie As though this were a full aunswere denying or graunting the Bishops assertion or as thoughe besides the suppressing of Idolatrie he did nothing else Where as the scripture is plaine how hee also redde the lawe before all his subiects how he made the couenant with God that all hys subiectes shoulde walke after the Lorde and obserue all hys commaundements testimonies and ceremonies Howe hée sware them all to kéepe this couenant Howe he commaunded them to kéepe suche a solemne passeouer as was neuer kept by any of all the kings before him How the Priestes appoynted not themselues but he appoynted them in their offices Howe they exhorted not him but howe he exhorted them to prepare themselues sayth Lyra dutifully to celebrate with deuotion the solemnitie of the passeouer Howe he commaunded the arke to be set vp in the Sanctuarie and to beare it no more on their shoulders Howe he commaunded theÌ„ to minister to the Lord and to his people Israel How he commaunded theÌ„ to prepare them selues according to the houses of their auÌ„cesters in their orders aâ—… Dauid had appointed them How he coÌ„maunded them to minister in the sanctuary by their families and Leuiticall courses How he commaunded them to be sanctified and then to offer the passeouer How he commauÌ„ded them also to prepare or sanctifie the residue of their brethren And when al things were prepared how the Priestes kept their stations and the Leuites were in their orders according as the king had commaunded them And so saith the text after it hath reckened vp the manner of the Priests Leuites singers and porters ministeries all the seruice or worship was orderly accomplished in that day to keepe the passeouer and offer their burnt offrings vppon the aultare of the Lorde according to the commaundement of Iosias the King. All these things M. Stapl. were done by his authoritie and commaundement But all these thinges are matters and causes ecclesiasticall Ergo his authoritie and commaundement stretched furder than in suppressing Idolatrie yea â—…uen ouer the chiefest matters ecclesiasticall But all this had M. Stap. quite forgotten and therefore we must beare with him though he answere the Bishop only with this Iosias traueled full godly in suppressing Idolatrie by his kingly authoritie Wherein we sée also how doubtfully he speaketh for when he perceyued it could not be denied but that which he did he did by his kingly authoritie yet would he not say that he suppressed Idolatrie by
But followeth it thereon that they agnised him to bee their supreme heade or gouernour This woulde require to bée prooued with some better Logycke As for these examples argue all the contrary that though the Prinâ—…s agnised alway one to be the chiefe Priest and also agnised all other inferiour Priestes Leuites Porters Singers in theyr offices yet all those highe and lowe whatsoeuer acknowledged agayne the supreme gouernement of commaunding appoynting ordring directing and ouerseeing them to doe all their duties dutifully to appertayne not to themselues but to theyr soueraigne Princes And the Princes as theyr seuerall examples witnesse tooke it vppon them in commaunding appoynting placing and displacing all and euery one yea the highest Priest himselfe And therefore where ye say to the Bishop I pray you good M. Horne bring forth that king that did not agnise one supreme heade and chiefe iudge in all causes ecclesiasticall among the Iewes I meane the highe Priest wherein lyeth all our chiefe question Yee haue not yet done it nor neuer shall doe it And ye coulde shewe anie it were not worth the shewing For ye shoulde not shewe it in anie good King as beeing an open breache of Gods lawe giuen to him by Moses as this your doings are an open breache of Christ and his Churches lawe and giuen to vs in the newe Testament These be but your crakes and outfacings master Stapleton The Bishop hath done it euidently that ye require and the scripture is manifest in all these Kings ensamples Nor they were any wicked Kings nor breakers of Gods law giuen by Moses or any other But euen Moses and all the rest were mainteiners of Gods law giuen to them and therfore are worth the shewing Your conclusion that our doings are an open breache of Christ and his Churches lawe giuen to vs in the new Testament I maye well ouerpasse without aunswere dismissing it to your common place of slaunders not onely of vs but of Christ and his Churche and his newe Testament also till ye shewe in what place of the newe Testiment Christ and his Church whom ye ioyne togither in this law making did make and giue vs this law that either our godly Christian Princes should not haue this supreme gouernment ouer their dominions or that your Pope should haue it ouer all the vniuersall Churche And when ye haue proued this proue also this your first new marke to be the verie state and issue here in question betwene the Bishop and master Feckenham or else agnise with shame your selfe that ye runne at randon loosely and altogither vnfruitfully haue employed yours and your Readers labour for all so lyke a Faulconer ye crie marke marke neuer so muche Your first false marke béeing thus reared vppe yée sette vppe a seconde muche lesse lyke the issue betwéene them but much more lyke the malicious slaunders among you saying Againe what president haue ye shewed of any good King among the Iewes that with his laitie altered and abandoned the vsuall Religion a thousande yeares and vpwarde customably from age to age receyued and embraced and that the high Priest and the whole clergie gainsaying all such alterations If ye haue not shewed this ye haue strayed farre from the marke Whether this be the marke or no or whether maister Stapleton of purpose straggle from it the conference of the issue wyth this will soone declare there is no néede to fette the highe Priestes iudgement as in a doubtfull matter Euery childe maye sée not onely howe farre they differ but also what an heape of slaunders on a plumpe he burdeneth like an vngracious subiect his most gracious soueraigne withall As for the Quéenes Maiesties most godly doings are very well confirmed by these examples And in proufe thereof the Bishop euer kept him closely to hys marke that the supreme gouernment which hir Maiestie taketh on hir is none other but such as they before did take on them Hir highnesse hath abandoned olde inueterate errors crept in besides and contrary to the worde of God she saw the ensample in these godly Kings before hir whose doings therein she followed Hir highnesse hath by the aduice and instruction of hir godly learned Clergie reformed religion according to Gods word although the Popish clergie were negligent and gainesayde the same she sawe the ensample in these kings before hir how by their godly learned prophets aduice and instructions according to Gods word they reformed religion although the Priests Leuits were negligent or withstood the same And this hitteth home the marke Any such gouernment syth both their supreme gouernments be so like And therfore in that you charge hir maiestie otherwise is nothing â—…eare the marke but is your owne reprochfull and very trayterouâ—… slaunder The ioly number of a thousande yeares and vpwarde of your vsuall religion is but your common vaunte and what if I sayde your outfacing lie also to deceyue the simple with a countenance of antiquitie the noueltie and late hatching whereof is dayly the more ye striue the more discouered to be nothing so auncient as ye pretende of a thousande yeares and vpwarde Of which number the most part the originals béeing well boulted out may come backe againe halfe a thousande yeares and more downwarde with shame ynoughe But I sée master Stapleton ye haue hoysted vp your Religion so hie that it staggreth againe and higher for falling downeright ye can not get it It hath béene ye say the vsuall Religion a thousande yeares and vpwarde that is a fayre tyme master Stapleton God saue it But what meane ye by this indefinite terme vpwarde Meane you it hath continued a thousande yeares and a little more Alacke Master Stapleton I am sorie for it and for your paynes taking till your armes ake to lyft it vp so highe and yet it commes too too short to be any true Religion For if it be the true Religion of Iesus Christe whie say yee not boldely man it is the vsuall Religion of fifteene hundreth yeares and vpwarde But eyther your armes are too shorte or your heart fayles you to lifte it vpwarde so highe for then the worde of GOD woulde soone controll you and beate it downe agayne And therefore you are contente with a lower sayle to crake that your Religion is yet a thousande yeares olde and vpwarde But as that is a false crake so is it also a vayne crake and serues not the turne yea admitting it were so old as ye boast 1000 â–ª yeares and vpward yet ought it of all godly Princes to be remooued and pulled downe againe except it be the Religion of fiftene hundreth yeares and vpwarde Eâ—…amsi Angelus docuerit aliud Euangelium quà m quod accepistis anaâ—…hema sit Althoughe an Aungell from heauen should teache any other doctrine than you haue receyued let him be accursed The Religion that the Quéenes Maiestie hath set forth thankes be to God therefore is the religion of 1500. yeares and vpward
and therfore good reason that yours giue place to his senior the popish later base born religion of your Romish church to thâ—… first most auncient true religion of that Alpha Omega Iesus Christ himself Master Stap. hauing now set vp these two false markes like to one being out of his way that after he is once ouer his shooes in the myre careth not howe he benâ—…yre himselfe but running deeper through thicke and thinne cryeth this is the way to haue other to followe him so rusheth on master Stapleton still further from the issue and yet taketh euerye thing in his way to bée hys marke and directorie Setting vp the perticuler factes of those Princes that chalenge and take vppon them this supreme gouernement that the selfe same factes must be founde in the ensamples of the olde testament or else hée sayth the Bishop strayeth from the marke VVhat euidence haue ye brought forth sayth he to shew that in the olde lawe anye King exacted of the Clergie In verbo Sacerdotiâ—… that they shoulde make none Ecclesiasticall lawe without his consent as King Henrie did of the clergie of Englande Is this the marke master Stap. betwene the Bishop and master Feckenham to proue in their supreme gouerments euerye selfe same perticuler fact yea the circumstances about or concerning the fact to be all one in them that clayme this gouernment nowe and those that claymed it then since bothe the states the times yea all the ceremonies of religion of the Iewes then and ours nowe are nothing like and trow ye then the princes perticuler doings must be like and euen the same and euidence must be giuen out of the one for euery fact of the other or else their supreme authorities be not alike The issue betweene them is not so straight laced but requireth onely any such gouernment some such gouernment yea he it al suche gouernment to I meane not all suche actions in the gouernment but the supreme directing gouernance authoritie or powre are proued both alike in either princes estate so well ouer eccl. persons in all their functions then or now as ouer the temporall in theirs For by this rule wheras that most famous prince king Henry the eight did sweare also to his obedience all his temporall subiects in ciuill causes as other Princes likewise haue done and do it would be harde to alleâ—…ge an euidence thereof out of the old Testament and yet their supreme gouernments therin were not therefore vnlike As for the ministring of the othe is but a circumstance to confirme the matter and not the matter itselfe And if king Henry were by the obstinate and craftie malice of his popishe clergiâ—… then constrayned for his more assurance to take an othe or promise of them on the honestie of their priesthoode which God wâ—…t was but a small holde as it went then in the moste of them and that no king of those ancient yeres mentioned in the olde testament béeing not moued by the wickednesse or mistrust of his clergy tooke the like othe or promise of their priestes honestie or fayth of their priesthoodâ—… then what is this to or from the matter why their supreme authorities shoulde not be alike in bothe Do not you also say for your side that the highe Priest had suche supreme gouernment then as your Pope â—…othe chalenge now ouâ—…r all eccl. causes â—…nd dothe â—…ot your Pope nowe exacte of all his clergie in verbo â—…acerdotij by the worde of their priesthoode that they shall make no eccl. law without his consent May we not then returne your owne words on your selfe VVhat euidence can you bring foorth to shew that in the olde lawe any highe Priest exacted this of the clergie vnder him And if ye can not as ye can not dothe not then this your wyle reason and newe marke ouerturne the false clayme that your Pope claymeth of such supreme gouernment now as the high Priest had then But his clayme is false his gouernment nothing like For the high priest then tooke not vpon him to make eccl. lawes as doth now your Pope but only obserued such eccl. lawes as God had made to his hande till time of the Pharisies corruption who not content with Gods lawes had deuised besides many fond lawes of their own inuentions when there wanted amoÌ„g them this kingly authoritie To the which so long as it continued the high priest al other obeyed receyuing and obseruing such eccl. constitutions as their godly princes made vnto them So did Aaron first receiue the eccl. coÌ„stitutions of Moses So after him did alâ—…re residue admit the eccl. constitutions of Dauid the rest of the foresaid princes their priests made none of theÌ„ selues without the Princes consent But the princes ordâ—…ined diuers eccl. orders partly with the aduise and consent partly without yea agaynst the wil coÌ„sent of their clergy now then and yet those godly princes exacted of them euen as they were true priests as the stories of Iosaphat and Ezechias mention how they charged their priests euen in that they were the Lords priests which is all one with that you alleage in verbo sacerdotij that they should do suche things as they appoynted them to do And is not this good and authenticall euidence for king Henries doings but that the priests appoynted any suche ordinance without their princes consents will be harde for you to bring the like or any â—…uidence at all for your Popes exacting And if as ye conclude herevpon this exacting to make no eccl. law without his consent be to make the ciuil magistrate the supreme iudge for the final determinatioÌ„ of causes ecclesiasticall then your Pope hauing no such euidence for him by this your marke is no supreme iudge for suche finall determination but it â—…latly proueth agaynst you that the Princes should be the supreme iudges therein And if the exacting of consent importe suche supreme authoritie as héere ye confesse then whereas not onely these ancient kings but also the ancient christian Emperors in the confirming of your Pope exacted that none shoulde be a lawfull Pope to whome they gaue not their consent it argueth that those Emperours were the supreme Iudges for the finall determination of the Popes ecclesiasticall election Which afterwarde when ye come to the handling therof ye renie affirming that although his consent was necessarie to be required yet it argued no suche supreme iudgement in the matter And thus you care not may ye for the time shuffle out an answere howe falsly or how contrary ye counterblast your false The nexte marke is yet further wyde from the issue and more fonde than any of the other for abandoning his Pope and generall Councels VVhat can ye bring foorthe sayth he out of the olde Testament to aide and relieue your doings who haue abandoned not onely the Pope but generall Councels also and that by playne acte of Parliament And
ecclesiastical liuings titles were any Byshop or any member of Christs Church or no euen by your ecclesiastical Canons of which one beginneth NoÌ„ omneâ—… episcopi sunt episcopi al Byshops are not Bishops c. 2. Q 7. Likewise Bernard the Canonist saith Spiritualis gladius ex leui causa non tantum per alios c. the spirituall Sworde mouing and nourishing warres of a light cause not only by other but also by it selfe contrary to right is become a souldiers Sword. Erasmus saith the Popes them selues are rather the successors of such as Iulius Caesar of Alexander Xerxes Croesus and of mightie theeues than the Apostles successors And that there are none so pernicious enemies to the Churche as the wicked Popes that suffer in silence Christe to growe out of knowledge and tie him to gainefull lawes and deflowre him with wrested interpretations and murder him with their pestilent life Call ye these spirituall byshops or rather as Christ said théeues and robbers painted sepulchers rauening wolues or as he called Iudas the Deuill him selfe For why beeing thus degenerate from the office of a Bishop should they haue the name of bishops as their owne law saith Si repriueris nec nomeÌ„ habere mereris It thou want the thing â–ª thou deseruest not the name And as Christe him selfe doth say If the salte haue lost his saltnesse what shal be seasoned therwith it is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out to be troden downe of men These are the spirituall Pastors of the popish Church yeathe Popes them selues being worsse than lay men and yet will be Lordes of all ecclesiasticall liuings lay mens liuings too But I will reserue this matter till ye be disposed to commune furder thereon for they touch néerer the ouerthrows of your Popes claime more decipher the hauiour of his Clergie than they come néere the issue of the Princes gouernment The sixte marke that ye set vp is this VVhat good induction can ye bring from the doings of the Kinges of the old lawe to iustifie that Princes now may make Bishops by letters Patents and that for such and so long time as should please them as either for terme of yeres monethes weekes or dayes What an impudent and too too shamefull a sclaunderer you may be marked to be appeareth by this marke M. St. If Bishops haue their letters patents from the Prince for their Bishoprike had they them not also froÌ„ Princes euen in the most popishe time but that they are made for suche termes as ye write you wilfully belie your Soueraigne The Prince in deede at all times if they do not their dutie and so shal be thought vnworthie may orderly remoue inhibite or punish them And of this the Bishop hath alleaged good proofe in the old Testament And yet if there were no proofe of it there what matter can ye make thereon that your Popes did not practise who licenced deposed restrayned limited and that for such and so long time as should please them As Florobellus saithe of the Pope Item facere potest Praelatum ad tempus He can also make a Prelate for a time And can ye finde such bulles of leade from the doings of the high Priest of the olde lawe If ye can not this marke ouerturnes your Popes supremacie more than it commeth any thing nere the Quéenes The Seuenth marke VVhat good motiue can ye gather by their regiment that they did visit Bishops and Priestes and by their lawes restrayned them to excercise any iurisdiction ouer their flockes to visit their slockes to reforme them to order or correct them without their especiall authoritie and commission thereunto yea to restrayne them by an inhibition from preaching which yee confesâ—…e to be the peculiar function of the Clergie exempted from all superioritie of the Prince This marke hath two partes For the former so farre as ye say true the Bishop hath gathered good motiues by their regiment that they did visite Bishops and Priestes and by their lawes restrained them to exercise any iurisdiction ouer their flockes to visit their flockes to refourme to order and correct them without their especiall commission therevnto for what else was their ordeyning and allowing them their commaunding ordering appointing and directing them Except ye meane hereby for ye spâ—…ake it very subtlely that the Bishops could do none of those functions that belonged to their office after they were appointed therto by the Prince but that for euery thing they must haue a speciall commission and than it is a captiouse sclaunder the Prince doth not so But what belongeth to the Prince herein and what to the Bishop in either of their Iurisdictions is to be considered in the fourth booke Sauing that still ye will augmeÌ„t your counterblast by the way of preuention Your other parte of this marke is a manifest sclaunder The Prince restrayneth no Bishop nor preacher with any simple inhibition from his office of preaching but Secundum quid inhibiting your popish seducers from preaching their traditions and erroneous doctrines such false Prophetes as Christ biddeth vs beware of If ye would preach the onely truthe ye might haue good leaue to preache it Now to stoppe the mouthes of false Idolatrouse Priestes the Bishop in these examples hath brought good proofe hereof no preaching is simplie forbidden but Papistes sectaries and other of noughtie or suspected life or doctrine and therefore where in the margine ye biddâ—… your reader Note here is nothing for him to note but your notorieâ—…se lie and your notable argument that ye make thereon Preaching is the peculiar function of the Clergie exempted from the Prince Ergo The Prince hath not authoritie to restrayne a noughtie preacher nor to inhibite him from preaching false doctrine Proue your argument a little better M. Stapleton and then bidde vs note it els is there litle to note in it but much to note in you For your Eight marke say you VVhat thinke ye that ye can persuade vs also that Bishops and Priestes payed their first fruites and tenthes to their Princes yea and that both in one yeare as they did for a while in Kinge Henries dayes Verely Ioseph would not suffer the very heathen Priests which onely had the bare names of Priests to paie either tythes or fines to Pharao their Prince yea rather he founde them in time of famine vppon the common store This marke Master Stapleten of paying first fruites and tenthes to the Prince is bothe wide from the Bishops marke and mere frinolouse For supposing they payde none yet this supreme gouernement still remayned entiere and whole to the Prince nor the paying it to the Prince maketh him supreme gouernour any whitte the more It was an order taken ye know in the time of your Popes superstition and that not long since neither vnder pretence of helping the Church in hir warres against the Saracens but in very déede
And is not this the voyce of all Protestants whatsoeuer onely Scripture onely the Gospell onely the worde of God and for the first part what is more common in the mouthes of the Germaine Lutherans of the French Caluinists and now of the Flemish Guets than this complaint that we presse them with the Emperors diets with the Kings proclamations and with the Princes placards to the which they obey as much as the Donatists when they haue power to resist Remitting your rayling Rhetorike Master Stapleton to your common places your argument is very fonde and faultie First if this be a simple and generall proufe of Donatists to say we bring the onely Gospels you will make Christ a Donatist to for he brought the onely Gospels And his Disciples and Apostles Donatistâ—… for they brought the onely Gospels and sayde they knewe nothing but Iesus Christ crucified they deliuered no other thing than that they had receyued and accursed him that should bring any thing besides this onely Gospell Ye will make the fathers Cyprian Chrysostome Ambrose Hierome Augustine c. become Donatists that will vs in all trialles of any point of doctrine to bring the onely Scripture the onely Gospels the onely worde of God Againe for the other part if this were a proufe of a Catholike to bring 〈◊〉 imperatorum sacra the letters of many Emperours and to complaine hereon the token of a Donatist then was Athanasius diuerse other godly Bishops Donatists also the Arrians Catholikes And your selfe with M. Feck alleage the complaints of Athanasius belike to proue him a Donatist This therfore M. St. thus simply set forth maketh but a simple argument Ye should either proue that we do bring the onely Gospell and complaine of your Princes diets Proclamations placards after the maner that the Donatists did or else ye proue nothing but your selfe a malicious slaunderer We bring the onely Gospels to you as Christ his Disciples and the holy fathers brought them to vs and yet bring we not the Gospell so alone that we bring not also the fathers writing thereon we also bring both Princes diets Proclamations and placards so farre forth as they mainteyne set forth and agrée with the doctrine of the onely Gospels Otherwise can ye wyte Athanasius if he complayned when he were pressed wyth them Can ye wyte the poore Protestants in Germanie Fraunce Flaunders if they so much as complaine that ye presse them wrongfully euen as your selfe in plaine wordes confesse thâ—…t ye presse them in déede with the Emperors diets with the kings Proclamations and with the Princes placardes Neuerthelesse if ye pressed them lawfully and as Constantinus pressed the Donatists I warrant ye no Protestant would once complaine thereon But ye presse oppresse them with nothing but mere violence to maintaine your errours besides and against the worde of God. And to this purpose your selues play the right partes of the Donatists for as the Donatists peruerted and wrested the scriptures to shake the authority of princes froÌ„ themselues which otherwise they admitted so farre as pleased them so do the popishe priests peruert and wrest the scriptures to reiect the Emperors and other Christian princes authoritie ouer them and vpbraid vs saying Illâ—… porâ—…ant multoruÌ„ imperatorum sacra They bring many of the Emperors letters that is we presse them with the authoritie of princes when we require that ye giue as much and no more authoritie vnto Princes than the onely worde of God doth warrant them But you will giue them no more nor yet their sacra their diets proclamations or placarts than shall serue your turne And thus your selues are most Donatists in this poynt Your last comparison is of the Donatists murdring of others and of themselues and yet canonizing of suche for Sainctes and Martyrs This comparison ye stretched out with large outroades nothing agaynst the Bishop nor to the matter and in déede nothing but extréeme rayling and scoffing agaynst master Foxes booke to whome I remittâ—… the quarels that you lay vnto him who is able at the full to aunswere them As for me I will aunswere onely to the comparison for murthering and canonizing wherein the Papists excell all other If ye had master Stapleton alleaged the Monke that poysoned himselfe to poyson his prince the Pope that to poyson his welthie Cardinals dronke him selfe of the wrong Bottell had ye tolde that men said of the death of the two late Cardinalles in Englande or howe good a medicine for the heade ache your Popishe Priestes haue made of the Sacrament of the aultare as ye termâ—… it and what Princes they haue poysoned therewith If ye had tolde of your Italian perfumes and Spanishe figges for the pippe ye might well master â—…tapleton haue confirmed your comparisons from the Donatists murders But what néede such priniâ—… tokens in so open a matter Your hate charitie to heape burning coales on your aduersaries heaâ—…s too many haue felt and all the world doth knowe For murther the Donatists be nothing comparable nor yet Barabaâ—… the Iew nor nere a théefe in Newgate to the blâ—…dthirstie Papists Ye say Saint Augustine sayth of the Donatists viueb ant vt latrones morâ—…ebaÌ„tur vt circumcâ—…liones honorabantur vt martyres They liued like robbers they died lyke Circumcelions meaning they fiue themselues they were honoured as martyrs True in déede master Stapleton and ye put me in remembrance of another saying that went in thrée parts to I trowe it was of an honest man of your religion of whom it was sayd 〈◊〉 vt vulpes regnabat vt Leo moriebatur vt canis He entred like a Foxe he reigned like a Lion he died like a dogge And yet ye count him one of Gods holy vicars And I pray ye call to minde another common saying that went also on three partes euen of your Popish canonâ—…zed Saincts that some were worshipped aâ—… Saincts in heauen that liued full wickedly here in earth and are now tormented with Diuels in hell this did men say master Stap. anâ—… they were Papists that sayde so to Ye tâ—…ll vs of the Montanists that worshipped one Alexander for a worshipfull martyr though he suffred for no matter of religion but for mischieuous murther What is this to the Donatists master Stapleton or that which ye tell vs of the Manichees worshipping the day of their master Manes death The worship of dead men good or bad or the kéeping of solemne dayes as in the honour of them is proper to you popish 〈◊〉 not to vs We kepe a memoriall I graunt but of these onely whome we are most infallibly assured that they be the blessed Sainctes of god Howbeit we worship not them nor the day for them nor them by the day wée worshippe onely GOD in spirite and truth as Christ hath taught vs But you that so worshippe deade men will yée worship none for Martyrs but those that dyed for matters of Religion Whie
tale with you Ye do wel to call your answere a tale for ye haue hitherto tolde a faire tale and a well told tale and therfore I pray ye M. Stap. tell on your tale till ye haue redde vs out this worthy chapter And sée that the residue of your tale be accustomable as yâ—… say to this ye haue hitherto tolde vs. The. 19. Diuision THe Bishop for that M. Feck with the Donatists refuseth the proues of the olde Testament â—…or Princes supreme gouernment ioyneth with Saint Aug. agaynst the Donatists and the Papists alleaging out of S. Augusâ—… many sentences first to proue this to be the verie dutie and speciall seruice of Princes vnto God to haue an especiall care diligence and ouersight to see Gods lawes and true Religion set forth and kept and to punish and remoue all things to the contrary Secondly to confute this refusall of the Donatists and Papists besides the foresayde proues and examples hée alleageth oâ—…te of Saint Augustine the examples of the King of Niniue of Darius of Nabuchodonozor and others prouing thereby that the Histories and testimonies cited out of the olde Testament are partly figures and partly Prophecies of the power dutie and seruice that Kings shoulde owe and performe in like sort to the furtherâ—…uce of Christes religion in the time of the newe Testament Master Stapletons aunswere to these testimonies is thréefolde First he laboureth to restraine all the testimonies of Saint Augustine onely to punishing of Heretikes Secondly he laboreth to proue that these testimonies make agaynst vs Thirdly he goeth about once againe by the Bishops illation on these testimonies to clere master Fecâ—…enham of the crime that the Bishop charged him with for refusing the examples of the olde testament The first part he parteth againe in thrée First he gathereth a contract and summe of all these testimonies to the which he yeldeth Secondly he sheweth that this was his olde and former opinion Thirdly he limitteth all the matter only to punishment And first of all he sayth â—…o now haue we mo testimonies out of Saint August to proue that for the which he hath alleaged many things out of S. Aug. already and the which no man denieth For what else proueth all this out of S. Aug. bothe nowe and before alleaged but that christian Princes ought to make lawes and constitutions euen as M. Horne him selfe expoundeth it fol. 12. b for the furtherance of Christes religion Are ye afrayde M. Stap. to be oppressed with the number of testimonies What man and your cause be good the mo the merier they say but bicause your cause is noughte the fewer belike with you the better fare althoughe by your leaue ye make a pretie lye in the beginning to say that he alleageth these testimonies of S. Augustine to proue that for the whiche he hathe alleaged many thinges out of S. Augustine already For the abouesayde allegations were directed to detecte the Donatistes in refusing the Princes authoritie and the examples of the olde Testament and to sée howe like to theirs your dealings to Princes and your refusall of the same examples were But these testimonies present are to confirme the Princes authoritie and the examples of the olde Testament for Princes agaynst both Donatistes and Papistes deniall of their authoritie and refusall of thexamples But let this passe sithe whatsoeuer those or these be ye say no man denieth them For what else say you proueth all this out of S. Aug. bothe nowe and before alleaged but that Princes oughte to make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion this thing no Catholike deâ—…ieth Meane ye playne dealing and speake ye in good sadnesse M St dothe no Catholike denie nor no man denie that Princes may make lawes for the furtheraunce of Christes religion How chaunce then you runne from the obedience of your own naturall most gratious soueraigne that maketh so godly lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion denie that she hath authoritie to make any lawes and coÌ„stitutions in that behalfe but that she must onely be obedient to your Popes and his Priests lawes and constitutions And for this matter ye compile the moste of your works And now ye say no maÌ„ nor catholike denieth it By this rule you be no catholikes that ye crake so much of Nay ye be no men neither for it is moste euident that ye chiefly denie this thing And your selfe in your Preface make it to be the moste principall controuersie of all other and most to be denied If ye be a true Catholike and a true man deale playnly For no doubt ye meane that there is a padde in the sâ—…rawe Ye haue a knacke in your budget whereby ye thinke ye may well graunt this whiche for shame in open wordes ye dare not denie but graunte And yet ye thinke we shall haue no more holde by your graunte than he that holdeth a wette Ele by the tayle For in the ende ye come in with suche a qualification as all the worlde may perceiue a flatte deniall thereof And yet at the firste blushe no man woulde thinke but that the matter betwéene vs and you were full concluded We say all the authoritie that the Quéene hath is onely to this ende in effecte that she oughte thereby to make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion This say you no man denieth but that they oughte to make lawes and coÌ„stitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion Héere you agrée with vs to a simple playne dealing mans iudgement Ye are become a Protestant I hope But what will your good masters at Louaine and your friendes with vs say to you when they shall heare of this graunt they wil affirme with one voyce that they vtterly denie it and aske ye howe ye haue defended master Feckenhams quarell Tushe will you say to them holde your peace sirs all is wel inough there was no remedie but I must néedes grasit to S. Augustines words they were so manyfest and so pressed that there was no helpe but to graunt it yea and to beare downe the matter that no bodie denied it But I haue such a distinction for it that they shal be neuer the néere for all my graunt Did ye neuer réede may ye say to them the practise of Arrius that wheÌ„ he was so vrged that he could not denie it he yelded to the true beleuers and wrote also as I haue done deposing that he beléeued as he had written but when his coÌ„plices herefore exposâ—…ulated with him he declared to them that for all the shewe of his grant in wordes in déede he had graunted nothing He saide he beleeued as he had written and looke here quoth he pulling a paper out of his bosome contayning his Heresie this is the writing to the which I referred my wordes And so may you say to your friendes M. Stap. true in
their swordes villes bowes and gunnes to lay on and strike onely when the Priests bid them and those onely whome the Priestes appoint to be slaine Now forsoth and forsoth M. St. this is a proper dealing of Princes in Ecclesiasticall causes and a goodly kinde of making lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion Well whatsoeuer it be this is all they are like to haue of you and yet will ye kéepe touche with them in your graunt to But thinke ye M. St. was this all that princes ought to do and nothing else but to punish heretikes on this fashion nothing else say you for that was in deede the very occasion why S. Aug. wrote all this A â—…a M. St. then I perceyue S. Aug â–ª wrote something more than ye would perticulerly answere vnto Well say you what soeuer he wrote this was the very occasion whie he wrote it to make lawes for punishing Heretikes and nothing else How M. St to make the Emperor that then was none other dealer in their punishment than your Pope maketh the Emperour now or than your Prelates made Q. Marie of late your executioner and the Nobilitie your droyles whome soeuer ye determine to prick by your excoÌ„munication condemnation what fooles were the Donatists then to crie out vpon the Emperour This were like the furie of the angrie Dogge that being bitte with a stone wreaketh his anger vpon the stone and not on him that hurled it What fellon is offended with the executioner or layeth his death to the beheaders charge when the Prince commaundeth to behead him but to the Prince But in this case you are the Princes that are the Priests and the Prince is but as it were the stone in your bande is but the executioner of your sentence Why should the Donatists then haue blamed the Prince except the Prince then had beene not the Priestes instrument but euen the principall in making lawes of punishment for them And so did Saint August acknowledge the Prince He decréed not lawes for the Emperour to put in execution but desired the Emperour to reforms them by suche sharpe lawes as séemed best to himselfe And although this were the verie occasion as ye say why Saint Augustine wrote all this Yea though it were the onely occasion to of writing all that he wrote what is that to this purpose For whatsoeuer the occasion were the occasion is not vrged but the wordes that he wrote A particuler occasion maye haue generall prooues The occasion of Saint Augustines wryting ye saye was the punishing of the Donatists And yet woulde Saint Augustine so haue written thoughe they had béene other Heretikes And it serueth agaynst all Heretykes Whie bycause hys prooues are generall whatsoeuer were the occasion And yet his occasion was not onely aboute the punishing of the Donatists for the Donatists denyed more than hys authoritie in punishing them they denyed hys authoritie to â—…ette foorth the true Religion and to ouersee that it bee in all estates duely preserued This sayde they was committed to Fishers not to Souldiours to Prophets not to Kinges as you nowe saye the lyke it was committed to the Apostles and Priestes not to Kings This was another verie occasion also and many other besydes might be whie Saint Augustine wrote all this But what is this All this that ye speake vppon I pray ye tell vs at least the summe of all this that saint Augustine wrote And then shall we sée if it be all none other but lawes of punishment for Heretikes that he layde and ment or no. And whether you haue hitherto truly sayde and ment or no all your falsehoode will then appeare Let vs here therefore resume some of those Testimonies of Saint Augustine God dothe inspire sayth he into Kinges that they shoulde procure the commaundement of the Lorde to be performed or kept in their Kingdoms Is this onely master Stapleton for punishing of Heretikes Againe In that hee is also a King hee serueth in making lawes of conuenient force for to commaunde iust things and to forbidde the contrarie Is this onely ment of lawes to punishe Heretikes Againe The Ensample of the King of Niniue that it apperteyned to the Kinges charge that the Niniuites shoulde pacifie Gods wrath Was thys onely mente of making lawes for punishing Heretikes What Heretikes were in Niniue Heathen Idolaters there were store but of Heretikes we read none And who made the decree of their fasting and repentance not the Prophete he onely denounced the wrath and iustice of God nor highe Priest of Aarons order was there any among them that the Scripture mencioneth Idolatrous Priestes no doubt they had more than ynowe but the lawe of that Ecclesiasticall discipline was not set out by them but by the King. Generally to conclude Saint Augustine sayth that the auncient actes of the godly Kinges mencioned in the Propheticall Bookes were figures of the lyke factes to bee done by the godlye Princes in the tyme of the newe Testament Were nowe these theyr doynges and auncient actes nothing else but lawes and constitutions for punishing Hereâ—…ykes and false teachers Were all the constitutions and doyngs of Moyses Iosue Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias Iosias and others nothing else Master Stapleton but this O good GOD that euer any that shoulde professe the studie of diuinitie shoulde be founde so false and shamelesse not onely thus to dallie with Princes but also to delude the fathers and the Scriptures and all to enfringe and takeaway the Princes interest and authoritie Nowe that ye haue thus in your first part brought the matter about giuing a graunt in wordes and expounding the wordes haue taken away the graunt againe ye enter into your seconde part to set a fresh on vs as ye did in your former Chapter would make these testimonies of S. Aug. to serue against vs which ye go about two maner of ways First hauing nowe abridged the princes authoritie to nothing else but to make lawes to punish Heretikes ye crie out vpon vs that we be the heretikes and that they must punish vs â–ª Secondly ye woulde proue that we be the Heretikes to be punished for denying euen this title to Princes of punishing Heretikes And for the first part ye say But nowe that master Horne may not vtterly leese all his labour herein let vs see howe these matters do truely and trimly serue agaynst his deare brethren and master Foxes holy Martyrs Here is all made sure on euery side euery way preuented least the poore â—…elie Protestants shoulde escape your violence by any starting hole First you your selues our enemies will onely haue the making of the decrées and lawes what shall be true religion what shall be false Secondly the Prince shall haue nothing to doe in examining the matter betwéene vs who haue in déede the true religion who haue the false but they must beléeue before hand that that which you shall say against vs is
the Lutherans in Germanie and Englande at their beginning was not this your Apostles Luthers opinion that no man should be compelled to the faith and as there are many dissentions diuisions Scismes betwixte you the Sacramentaries and the Lutherans so are you deuided also in this point For your Master Caluine writeth that a maÌ„ may lawfully and by Gods lawe be put to death for heresie as he practised him selfe also burning Seâ—…etus the Arian at Geneua Sée how your selfe beyng blinded with pure enuie M. Stapleton while ye studie with all bitternesse of termes to deface vs to the simple to all wise meÌ„ ye cléere acquite vs of the crime ye obiect against vs Ye say we are Sacramentaries and that Caluine is our Maister Ye say furder that our Maister Caluine writeth that a man may lawfully and by Gods lawe be put to death for Heresie I aske ye here if this were the opinion of the Donatistes if they then saide the contrarie to vs and we to them then haue your selfe discharged vs of this crime that euen contrarie to your conscience and wittingly ye sclaunder vs with Which is so euident a matter that euery man hereafter may iustly take you for a common lying sclaunderer Do not your selfe also complaine in many places euen of this counterblast that we would haue the Prince execute more seueritie towardes you and that we séeke your bloud and such other thinges wherein although in that matter ye sclaunder vs yet euen your sclaundering purgeth vs in this matter And do ye not say here present we are deuided in this pointe and so againe ye cléere vs of this crime But say you all Luthers schollers in Germanie are not so forewarde I know not all Luthers schollers for my parte M. Stapleton â–ª and I ghesse you know them not all neither But suppose as ye say all be not so forwarde yet if they be forwarde they are againe discharged of this your lying crime Yet say you this was Luthers opinion and their common song in the beginning If slaundering were not your common song M. Stapleton ye would neuer sing thus purposely out of tune It is well knowne the reuerence and obedience that Luther teacheth subiects to yeld to their Princes euen to the death But wilfully ye peruert and wrest his wordes he spake not of fayth simply among professed Christians but of some doubtes of faith He saide they should not be onely forced without outwarde violence but rather with persuasion and argumentes if it might be if not then the Magistrate might lawfully punishe the obstinate for his errour or Heresie So he declared of Muncer and other Heretikes séeing their peruersenesse that the Magistrate might lawfully punish him and his adherents yea that he ought so to do and thereto he vehemently excited them This was Luthers opinion and what fault finde you therewith In déede agaynst those that are Infidels Turkes Iewes Heathen or any any other not professed Christians he sayd Christians ought not béeing not prouoked by them to set on their realmes and prouoke them onely of purpose by force of armes to make them become Christians And in this behalfe he spake muche agaynst the foule abuses of the Pope in his Croyses and practises aboute the Turkish warres But what is this to this purpose in hande yea what is all this either of Luther or Caluine if there were suche diuision in this poynte betweene them as you like a makebate would set where none is to the matter in question The question is whether the Prince may punishe heretikes and that by death Which bothe Luther and Caluine graunt ye may But the Donatistes denied this bicause they beeing apparant heretikes perceiued it made against them you shoulde likewise haue proued that Luther and Caluine and that we were heretikes or else it toucheth vs not at all For would ye haue the Prince put to death the faythful Christian Luther Caluine might wel ye know and ought to speake agaynst that They sawe the violent practises of you Papistes in murthering and deuouring the poore shéepe of Christ and can ye wite them if they coÌ„playned therof Ye shoulde haue first proued vs to be the heretikes But you will say that I haue done already Ye haue done so in deede M. St. after the Popish maner that is to say ye haue called vs heretikes and starke heretikes and condemned heretikes ofte inoughe and if that will do it And ye haue tolde euen right now that ye say we be heretikes al to nought with we say and we say on the head of it These sayings we haue hearde as ye bad vs harken but we haue hearde neuer a proofe Nowe what muste the Prince héere do 〈◊〉 he not examine and searche out bothe our proofes and punish not the faythfull be léeuer but whome he findeth to be the heretike And thus if ye wil néedes haue death the punishment in Gods name euen death be it But then M. St. I thinke ye will not be halfe so hastie no ye had rather I dare say kéepe ye still at Louayne Héere entreth M. St. agayne into an inuectiue agaynst M. Foxes booke For that booke and the bishop of Sarisburies are his chiefest eyesores so that I blame him the lesse that he startleth so often at them as all his companions and masters do besides For the one for their practises and the other for their errours haue almost marde all their estimation with their friends But his by matters I will not answere only to the question now in argument Yea sayth he some of your holy martyres auouche that the King can make no lawe to punishe any maner of crime by death and that al suche lawes are contrarie to the Gospel This was the opinion of sir Thomas Hitton priest Where finde ye this master Stapleton this is you will saye an article layde vnto him that he defended Yea but are you sure master Stapleton that he in déede defended this as it is héere set out and that it is not rather altogither deuised for malice or peruerted misconstrued as many other haue béene the false witnesses wrested the sayings of Christ that he should denie tribute to Cesar that he went about to destroy the temple c. Yea the title let on his crosse if the Priestes might haue had their will should not haue béene writteÌ„ as it was The like wresting of his sayings vsed the Iewes with S. Steuen And in the primitiue Churche were many articles obiected to the poore Martyres of refusing obedience to magistrates of licencious lyfe of vnnaturall commixtures of murdring and eating children And euen suche malicious misconstrued articles the Papistes deuise on the Protestants that in the meane while are gagged nor suffred once to speake and declare their innocencie But blessed are you sayth Christ when men reuile you and speake all euill on you for my name sake But you say this is no slaunder
or no. Now ye may conclude sayth master Stapleton that there is some regiment that Princes may take vpon them in causes Ecclesiasticall Thankes be giuen to God master Stapleton that yet now at the length contrary to all your felowes to all your owne wranglings hitherto the force of the truth hath enforced you to yelde thus much to the B. ye graunt Now that Princes haue some regiment in ecclesiasticall causes which hitherto except the making a law of burning or punishing be an eccl. cause ye haue altogither denied vnto Princes But what is this some regiment that ye graunt theÌ„ now for neither we graunt them al regiment but some regiment also that is to say a supreme regiment And you also denie not in your marginall note that they may take vpon theÌ„ in ecclesiastical matters supreme gouernmeÌ„t authority power care but not say you such supreme gouernment as the othe prescribeth so that here we both agrée of supreme gouernment but the kinde of supreme gouernment is denied And to specifie your meaning herein how large a kind ye graunt or denie ye adde he should haue concluded in all things and causes else he concludeth not agaynst you signifying that you deny to them a supreme gouernment in all things causes ecclesiastical but ye graunt them a supreme gouernment authoritie power and care in things and causes ecclesiasticall First M. Stap. this is but a iangling and shifting quarell in wordes about things and causes ecclesiasticall and all things and causes ecclesiasticall For not onely the Bishop when he speaketh so indefinitely vnderstandeth all but also it is an ordinarie speach allowed in Logike in all things that be naturall or necessarie where the indefinite is counted as much as the vniuersall As to say a man is a reasonable creature or man is mortall is as much as precisely to say all men and euery man is reasonable and mortall And the saying in the next diuision he came to fulfill the lawe and the Prophetes is all one with this he came to fulfill all the lawe and all the Prophetes And likewise this giue vnto God that belongeth to God and to Caesar that belongeth to Caesar is as much to say as this giue vnto God all that belongeth to God c. and euen your selfe doe commonly speake thus indefinitely ecclesiasticall matters when ye meane all ecclesiasticall matters though now when ye be thus â—…iuen to graunt the effect of the matter yet would ye find some shift of descant to frustrate all the matter and say If ye meane of such regiment as ye preteÌ„d where ye know well ynough none other is ment ye make your reckoning without your host as a man may say and conclude before ye haue brought any proufe that they ought or may take vpon them such gouernment Whether this some regiment be such regimeÌ„t or such gouernment for thus M. St. ye loue in termes to dally though the Bishop hath proued it sufficiently and you haue graunted it standing onely like a daintie Nicie besetter on this quaint poynt in things not in all things yea whether this Nice restraint defeate the full proufe of the question in controuersie betwene master Feckenham and the Bishop shal appeare M. St. by calling them â—…ath coram to recken better with their host that is as you haue like a thriftie tapster called vpon so oft before though still ye brought in false reckonings to set before them and mark the issue that they condiscended vpon that is to weâ—…e Any such gouernmeÌ„t in ecclesiastical causes Lo here the demaund of the hoste himselfe be requireth but any such gouernmeÌ„t and that without putting in all in the reckoning Where therfore ye grauÌ„t the B. hath proued it in some eccl. causes which satisfieth the demaund of any ecclesiast causes euen according to your owne wrangling ye confesse the Bishop hath concluded the very issue that was concluded vpon Thus master St. euen by your owne reckoning the B reckoned with his host at the full and hath payed and satisfied that he promised and M. Feckenham required But nowe looke you what reckoning you will make to your friendes that haue here brought your selfe so farre in the lashe that taking vpon you to impugne the Princes gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes ye haue graunted and yelded to it How will your credite holde with your friends yea how will your reckoning hold with it self here ye haue grauÌ„ted some regimeÌ„t yea supreme gouernment though not such supreme gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes In the last Chap. ye would graunt theÌ„ nothing but punishment of those whom you had condemned which is no ecclesiastical matter at all to hang or burne a man And yet ye gaue them no regiment much lesse supreme regiment therein neyther For you would haue al the appointing whoÌ„ he shal punish the prince hath nothing else to do but to execute him whom you deliuer vp vnto him which agréeth nothing with this that now ye haue grauÌ„ted least of all with that ye further grauÌ„t saying For though I graunt you all your examples ye haue alleaged and that the doings of the olde Testament were figures of the new and the saying of Esay that kings should be nourishing fathers to the Church and all things else that ye here alleage yet all will not reach home no not Constantine the great his example How agréeth this graunt master Stap. with all that ye haue done all this while Why haue ye denied the Bishops ensamples heretofore of Moyses Iosue Dauid c. and made such a long and earnest a do in the matter to be grauÌ„ted at length Did ye stand in it then to dilate your booke or do ye graunt it now to bragge of your skill or did ye resist the truth then contrary to your conscience repent ye now or be ye forced to grauÌ„t with some colour that ye cannot for shame in plaine speach denie howsoeuer it be many odde reckonings will fall out in your account against your selfe although you neuer â—…ecken with your host for the matter Ye graunt the saying of Esay also that Kings shoulde be nourishing fathers to the Church and all things else that the Bishop here alleageth yet will not all reach home no not Constantine the great his example VVill not all this reach home Master Stap. to proue the issue that euen your selfe do confesse the Bishop hath alreadie proued For that is the home that it ought tâ—… reach vnto by master Feckenhams demaund But go to measure it with a true yerde master Stap. and ye shall see it fayre and easily without any stretching at al reach euen as full home as you besides can require euen for the supreme gouernment of all maner ecclesiasticall causes looke what ye recken most vppon and that is euen the féeding with the worde vnder which the Sacraments also are comprehended not that he is the Minister of the worde and Sacraments as
be done It lieth not in our will that we may if we liste giue God that that is Gods but we must and ought so to doe bicause it is Gods will. And so likewise for the Princes duetie he hath willed that he shoulde haue that belongeth to him yea your selfe say it is moste true and therein ye say truely and it is most iust and reason by all lawes except your Popishe lawes that euery man haue that is his and then muche more the Prince to haue that that is his no body ought to take away anothers right and due muche lesse his Princes then if it be most true most reasonable and iust and Christes will was not this most true iust and reasonable will of Christ a sufficient determination that the Prince shoulde haue all that belonged to him but that he might haue it if it pleased his subiectes to giue it him Nay it was not so muche say you no not for so much as his owne money yea he determined nothing at all What a straunge answere of Christ had this béene to the Iewes demaunde or rather a daliance to haue determined nothing at all but this is your moste false and fantasticall imagination M. St. For vpon their particuler demaunde Christ giueth a determinate and generall doctrine that all Princes shoulde haue not onely money or tribute as they moued their question but all things else that belong vnto theÌ„ as likewise God to haue althings belonging to God and yet their demauÌ„de mentioned not God at all But Christes answere determined that and more than they demaunded And therfore he answered then not agayne that it was lawfull to giue tribute to Cesar but gaue them flat commaundement for all things not only belonging to Cesar but to Good also bicause they pretended to be exempted from the Emperours subiection and taxes béeing Gods peculier people as the Popish prelats claymâ—… to be exempted from the gouernement and tribute of their Princes bicause they be as they pretende the spiritualtie The residue of M. St. answere is nothing but wordes of course and slaunderous bye quarels First that this admonition of the bishop serueth him and his brethren for many and necessarie purposes to rule and master their Princes by at their pleasure That as often as their doings lyke them not they may freely disobey and say it is not Gods worde wherof the interpretation they referre to them selues Héerein M. St. you measure vs by your selues none séeketh another in the ouen they say that hath not hidde him selfe in the Ouen before This that ye clatter agaynst vs is the common practise of the Pope and his Prelates so they vse Princes and so they vse the worde of god So long as the Gréeke Emperours enriched the Popes and suffred them to set vp Idolatrie your Popes lyked well of them but when they beganne to pull downe Images then your Popes rebelled agaynst them add stirred vp Pepia and Charles the great to inuade the Empire So long as the Frenche Emperours endowed and defended the Popes seigniories they were the Popes chiefe and white sonnes But so soone as they beganne to chalenge their righte in Italie then your Popes fearing the Frenche power berefte agayne the Frenche Emperoures of it and gaue it to the Germane Princes But euen in Germanie as any Princes woulde clayme their righte and interest of his estate to be Emperoure in déede of Rome as he is called in name then the Popes did excommunicate him and stirred his people to rebellion agaynst him And thus likewyse in Englande so long as king Iohn withstoode the Pope and his Byshops practises he was excommunicated and his kingdome giuen to the Frenche kings sonne and the Dolphin willed to inâ—…ade Englande But when king Iohn had made him selfe the Popes vassalle and to holde the kingdome in Capite of the Pope he was absolued and the Dolphin forbidden and accursed So long as king Henry the eight wrote agaynst Luther he had a golden Rose sent him and was entituled Defendour of the faythe But when he in déede began to defende the fayth â–ª and abolish the corrupter of the fayth and his corrupte Idolatrie then he was excommunicate with booke bel candle and al Princes that the Pope might moue were set against him And this practise he vsed with other christian Princes calling one his eldest sonne another the most Christian king another the Catholike king â–ª c. With suche clawes to master and rule Princes by at his pleasure But as often as any Princes doings like him not then to cause their subiectes to disobey them and renounce their othes of allegeance And wherto else serueth all this your present wrangling and wresting of this text Reddite Caesars quae sunt Caesaris but to this purpose that béeing not necessarily bounde by force of any wordes to pay yea any tribute to our Prince and that it standeth onely on a case of licence or possibility we may if we please it is lawfull if we do it but we oughâ—… not we be not bounde it is not a precise necessitie of subiectes What is a gappe to all disobedience and rebellion if this be not and yet he obiecteth this to vs No M. Stap. it is your owne we acknowledge it to be a commaunde ment due and necessarie that the Prince haue all thinges that belongeth to him and what belongeth in this controuersie is proued out of the olde Testament which Christ héere confirmeth and limiteth it by the duetie giuen also to God putting no meane of Pope nor Prelate betwéene God and the Prince as you do And this limitation ye can not denie to be good and godly for all your scoffing at it to limitte the Princes authoritie by Gods worde Which we do not to disobey our Prince but rather to giue to our Prince hir owne knowing which is hirs which is Gods least we should with you intermingle these dueties that Christ hath seuered as your Pope vsurpeth bothe Cesars and Gods also bicause he will not haue his power measured by Gods worde but will rule the worde of God and referreth the interpretation thereof to him selfe It is manyfest in him that he doth so To lay it to vs is but a manyfest slaunder And this is a greater matter of all on your side than the refusall of a cappe or a surplesse wherat ye quarell in some Protestantes on the other side which dothe nothing abase but rather in comparison shew the more your stubborne disobedience in all poyntes to your Princes authoritie besides your abusing of Gods worde wherof ye say we make a very welshmans hose Or but yet do you M. St. and a great deale worsse too but ye were best to crie stoppe the théefe by another for feare ye be espied to be the théefe your selfe But I pray you how do ye proue that we or the Byshop so vse Gods worde For say you we playnely say that this kinde of supremacie is directly
vpon thē selues to whō they properly appertayne who in deede denie both Chryst the head and Christ the body that is his catholike Church And that as the Donatistes secte was condemned by Constantine Honorius and other Emperours the highe kings of Christendome So haue they withall condemned you master Stapl. that followe the Donatistes and so may and ought all christian Princes the Emperour nowe whose highe kingdomes besides a bare name in any matter of Christianitie ye make nothing to pull downe suche vsurpers of their highe kingdomes and set vp true and godly ministers in their places to whome they might and ought to submitte their heades vnder their spirituall ministerie To the whiche sorte as is shewed playnely out of Chrisostome your Popishe Priesthoode is cleane contrarie And therefore to returne your wordes vpon your selfe Ye are they that cutte in sunder the vnitie and peace of Christes Churche and rebell agaynst the promises of his Gospell Which Gospell ye can not abyde should come to light and therefore the highe kinges of Christendome should remoue and condemne you Whiche is a better argumente than yours M. Stap. and is sufficient to inferre the supremacie of these highe Kings and Princes The. 23. Diuision THe Bishop in his diuision prosecuting still the wordes of S. Paule Rom. 13. proueth further out of Chrysostome and Eusebius that as the Prince is Gods minister so this ministerie consisteth not onely in ciuill and temporall but also in the well ordering of the Church matters and their diligent rule and care therein The effecte of his argument is this The Prince as Chrysostome sayth prepareth the mindes of many to be made more appliable to the doctrine of the worde and is the great lighte and true preacher and setter foorth of true godlynesse as Eusebius sayth Ergo His ministerie consisteth as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill causes The antecedent Eusebius proueth by the example of Constantine that his ministerie stretched to the setting foorth of godlynesse to al countreyes and that he preached God and not onely ciuil lawes by his Imperiall decrees and Proclamations And this he confirmeth by Constantines own confession that he taughte by his ministerie the religion and lawe of God that therby he caused the encrease of the true fayth And by the same put away and euerthrewe all the euils that pressed the worlde But the world in Constantines time was pressed with diuers schismes errours heresies false religions and many ecclesiasticall abuses and superstitions besides the heathen Idolatrie Ergo His ministerie stretched not onely ouer temporall causes but also ecclesiasticall Yea he counteth this his best ministerie Ergo. It belongeth to the Prince as well if not more than the other And so the Bishops argument followeth héerevpon that the Apostles sentence the Prince is Gods minister argueth the Princes charge and gouernement in all maner causes ecclesiasticall so well as temporall These proues of the Byshop béeing so euident M. Stap. answereth they are all insufficient saying I see ye not master Horne come as yet neere the matter I answere who is so blinde as he that seeth and will not see Were ye not of the number of those of whome Chryst sayth I came to iudgemēt into this worlde that those that see not shoulde see and those that see shoulde be made blind Ye might then both clearely see that he both cōmeth neere the matter and satisfieth it at large Excepte ye be as blinde of the matter also as ye pretende to be of these the Byshops proufes But if ye woulde haue followed your owne counsell euer to haue set before your eyes the state of the question in issue betwéene them ye shoulde well by this time haue seene that the Byshop digressed nothing frō it And that your selfe of self will or malice will not looke aright theron but cleane awrie stil starting aside and swaruing frō the marke for the nonce to picke occasions wheron to wrangle For wherfore I pray you do ye not see that the Bishop commeth not neere the matter I see not say you that Constantine changed religion plucked downe Altares deposed Byshops c. But that he was diligent in defending the olde and former faythe of the Christians Whatsoeuer you see or see not in Constantine master Stapl. all the world may see false dealing in you and how lyke an vnnaturall subiecte to your naturall Prince ye be As thoughe ye sawe that the Quéenes highnesse had changed religion excepte ye meane false religion and that ye might haue seene in Constantine also He changed the heathen religion of the Paynims and abolished it with all their Altares Byshops Priestes and temples and set foorth the true religion of Iesus Christe He chaunged likewise and abolished suche superstitions Idolatries schismes errours and heresies as troubled the Churche of Christe in his time Which you might easily haue seene in Constantines owne wordes by the Byshop cited That he put away and ouerthre we all the euils that pressed the worlde If you say ye can not yet see that he ment all spirituall and ecclesiasticall euils so well as temporall put on a payre of spectacles master Stapl that are not dymmed with affection and then shall ye see that of suche kinde as the good thinges were whiche he set foorth of suche kinde were the contrarie euils that he put away and ouerthrew but the good things that he set foorthe were true godlynesse decrees of God the religion of the moste holy law the most blessed fayth c. All whiche are matters moste spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo all the euils that he abolished were so well spirituall and ecclesiasticall as ciuill and temporall matters If ye say yet ye see nothing but that he was diligent in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians True in deede neither can ye see any other thing in the Quéenes Maiestie nor any authoritie is giuen héereby to Princes than as Constantine was to bee diligente in defending the olde and former fayth of the Christians founded by Christ and taught by his Apostles And if any other since that time haue brought in any things besides that old and former fayth to remoue the same and reduce vs to the olde and former fayth of the Christians For as Tertullian sayth That is of the Lorde and that is truthe that was before deliuered but that which afterward was thrust in is bothe strange and false And so sayth Constantine I bothe called agayne mankind taught by my ministerie to the religion of the most holy lawe and also caused the moste blessed fayth should encrease grow vnder a better gouernor Nowe séeing that many poynts of the Popish fayth and doctrine haue cropen in since that time and manie of later yeres besides and contrarie to the olde and former fayth of the Cheistians taught by Christ and left vs written by the finger of the holy ghost sealed and confirmed by so many myracles to endure to the
his Legates â–ª Forsoothe when he dothe it then it is a principall matter it argueth his supremacie and therefore none can do it but he But nowe when examples are founde and alleaged that Christian Princes had wonte to doe it Ergo They were supreme then belike therein Nay then it argueth no supremacie then it is no principal matter nor any eccl. matter at al. Thus you play mockhalliday with vs and boe péepe as though we were children it is and is not When the Pope dothe it then it argueth a supremacie when the Prince dothe it then it argueth none And why so for sooth then the case is altered Thus do you dally out the matter and when any substantiall proufe is brought agaynst you either ye giue it suche a mocke as this or leape cleane ouer it as though ye sawe it not or in stéede of answere to that that is propounded propounde your selfe an other allegation which is clauâ—…m clauo pellere to driue out one nayle by another For to the allegation out of the Emperours Theodosius and Ualentinianus Epistle ye answere nothing but set a péece of another letter of Ualentinian to Theodosius in the téethe of it VVe sayth Valentinian to the Emperour Theodosius say you ought to defende the fayth which we receyued of our auncestors with all competent deuotion and in this our tyme preserue vnblemished the worthy reuerence due to the blessed Apostle sainct Peter so that the moste blessed Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath giuen the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all other may O moste blessed father and honorable Emperour haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes And for this cause the bishop of CoÌ„stantinople hathe according to solemne order of Councels by his Libel appealed vnto him And this is writteÌ„ M. Horne to Theodosius him selfe by a coÌ„mon letter of Valentinian And the Empresses Placidia Eudoxia which Placidia writeth also a particular letter to hir said sonne Theodosius and altogither in the same sense Héere ye clap vp a marginall note The Popes supremacie Proued by the Emperour Valentinian alleaged by M. Horne And héere agayne full triumphantly ye crie out HerkeÌ„ good M. Horne giue good aduertisemeÌ„t I walk not and wander as ye do here alleaging this Emperour in an obscure generalitie wherof cannot be enforced any particularitie of the principall question I go to worke with you playnly truely and particularly I shewe you by your owne Emperour by playne words the Popes supremacie the practise withall of appeales froÌ„ Constantinople to Rome Héere is a ioly face of this matter M. St. But yet héere is not one worde to answere the bishops allegation but to coÌ„mend your owne that ye set against it and so thinke ye answere it bicause it is of the same Emperour Ualentinian whom the bishop alleaged But such answere as it is sithe ye can make no other we muste take it or none at your handes Neuerthelesse since ye so crake that ye walke not and wander not in obscure generalities but go playnly and particulerly to worke if ye ment as ye say how chaunce ye open not any of the necessary particuler circumstances of the matter whervpon the Emperour wrote whiche might haue made this matter plaine would haue shewed what and wherin they coÌ„mended the B. of Rome and what authoritie belonged to the Emperour Yea if you had but set downe a little more largely the selfe same Epistles that ye cite the matter had beene a great deale more cleare Ye say also ye go truely to worke and yet you falsly translate euen those very words that ye cyte and so cutte them off ere ye come to the periode that that which shoulde haue shewed the matter to haue béene about a particular controuersie of the fayth then risâ—…n might séeme to be generally spoken of all controuersies And therfore ye leaue out these wordes For the controuersie of the faith that is sprong vp And where the wordes of your allegation are Locum habeat ac facultatâ—…m de fide sacerdotibus iudicare that he may haue place and leaue or facultie to iudge of the fayth and of the Priests you captiously and falsly translate it that he may haue place and libertie to giue iudgement in suche matters as concerne fayth and Priestes This subtile translation in generall ye vse to make it appeare that the Bishop of Rome hath a generall authoritie to be the chiefe Iudge to decide all doubtes in matters of fayth and to be the chiefe Iudge of all Priestes where your texte inferreth no suche thing Likewise where the Emperour sayth of the Bishop of the Citie of Rome to whome antiquitie hath yeelded the principalitie of Priesthoode aboue all others ye conclude that by playne wordes is shewed the Popes supremacie and so sette vp your Marginall note The Popes supremacie proued by the Emperour Valentinian Where in your letter are no suche playne wordes of supremacie nor any proufe thereof at all Do you thinke that the Emperour acknowledged that supremacie which your Pope nowe chalengeth and vsurpeth not onely ouer all Priestes but ouer all Kinges and Emperours also No master Stapleton it is euident by the dealing of these Emperours and that euen in this matter that the Pope â—…ad no suche supremacie but the Emperour dyd those thinges then that your Pope dothe clayme nowe as further shall appeare in the proper treatise therof Your Pope nowe woulde be lothe to be suche an humble Lâ—… and fall downe to the Egles féete as the Pope dyd then to the Emperour whiche nowe ye make the Emperour doe to the Popes féete For why ye may â—…ay â—…empora mutantur nos mutamur in illis the tymes are changed and we are changed in them All the playne wordes and proues ye crake of for this supremacie are these that the Emperour sayth antiquitie gaue hym the principalitie of Priesthoode But there is a greate difference betwéene the principalitie of Priesthoode and supreme head or chiefe gouernour of Priesthoode or that all Priesthoode is deriued out of the Popes Priesthoode as diuers of your wryters affirme that Christe made Peter onely a Priest and all the other Apostles had their Priesthoode from him and so all other from the Bishop of Rome whome they call hys Successoure But as they erre in the office of Priesthoode wherof God willing we shall speake hereafter so whatsoeuer the office of their Priesthood was their saying is manyfest â—…alse For if Peter were a man as he confessed hym selfe to be S. Paule sayth he had not hys authoritie of men but immediatly of God and Peter gaue him nothing neither yet Iames nor Iohn And here if I might spurre you a question bicause master Heskins setteth oute his Parliament so solemnelie before his boke in pictures for the nonce making s. Iames the first that sayde Masse wherin he followeth the coÌ„mon opinion
to make an ende of questioning This in the statute by master Hornes silence is not comprised True in déede M. Stapl. this kinde of iudgement is not mentioned by the Bishop â–ª but it is moste falsly mentioned by you For where ye say this in the statute moste maliciously ye slaunder the statute for this in the statute is neither named comprised or can be gathered thereon Neither the Quéenes Maiestie claymeth or taketh on hir this kinde of iudgement It is due onely to Gods worde and your Pope and popishe Churche violently snatcheth it from Gods worde chalenging it to them selues euen aboue Gods worde it selfe although they agrée not héerein togither For the popishe Churche will be aboue the Pope in thys poynt of iudgement maugre his bearde and yet they graunt the Pope to be their supreme gouernour ecclesiasticall Though they will not relent to him this supreme iudgement but giue it to the Churches iudgement And therefore they be of a contrarie iudgement to you that say this poynt is moste necessarie meete and conuenient for a supreme gouernour ecclesiastical By which poynt you wil make your Pope either no supreme gouernour eccl ouer you or spoyle him of a most necessarie meete and couenient poynt of the supreme gouernment that ye giue him but these are your iarres agrée as ye wil like cats in a glitter about theÌ„ This popish churches or papall iudgement the Q. Maiestie taketh not vpon hir nor the statute ascribeth it vnto hir and therefore the B. had nought to do therewith Yet haue we one thing more which after a couple of your slauÌ„ders that I answere not but referre to your common place thereon ye charge the Bishop once more for this omission Agayne say you preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing â–ª are they not things and causes eccl How then are they heere omitted by you master Horne or how make you the supreme gouernment in all causes to rest vpon the Queenes Maiestie if these causes haue no place there What should a man vse many words with suche a brabler who though he haue nought to say yet will neuer lâ—…e saying of that which is nought to purpose Ye have beene often inough and fully inoughe answered to this master St. if the Quéenes Maiestie taketh not these thinges vpon hir then the B. omitteth not any thing that hir highnesse taketh on hir in omitting these things Neither doth the â–ª sratute yéelde vnto hir the doing of them It is but your slaunderous obtruding of the statute It giueth a supreme gouernmeÌ„t in al these things to the Q. Maiestie And so these causes haue place there so farre as is néedful to a supreme gouernour But from a supreme gouernour which consisteth in caring for ordering directing prouiding guyding maynteining setting foorth to the executing doing preaching and administring of those things is as farre from any good conclusion as you your matter are farre from truthe and honestie Neuerthelesse such is your great coÌ„fidence in this your Counterblast as though ye had so puft vp the falshood therof that no man could espie it ye lustely blowe vp the last blast of this your first booke saying VVhich is nowe better I appeale to all good consciences playnly to maynteine the truthe than dissemblingly to vphold a falsshod playnly to refuse the othe so generally conceiued than generally to sweare to it beeing not generally meaned â–ª But nowe let vs see how M. Horne wyll direct his proufes to the scope appoynted Why may not you appeale to all good consciences M. Stap. as well as that mayden Priest of yours that mighte bidde his maydenhead Goodmorrowe and haue as good a conscience for your owne parte as he for his parte had a maydenhead And to shew your good conscience for a farewell while ye shake handes at the very parting ye lash â–ª out a couple of slaunderous vntruthes togither Ye haue not many words to speake and therfore ye huddle them vp You say the othe is conceiued so generally that it giueth to the Prince your foresayde absolute power of determining all doubts and controuersies of preaching the worde administration of the sacraments bynding and loosing This lie to lappe vp all in the ende was worthe a whetstone M. Stapl. and his fellowe that iutteth with him chéeke by chéeke is as good as he That the othe generally conceyued is not generally meaned But set aside your malitious meaning to wrest the othe and the othe is playne and all one bothe in wordes and meaning But howe soeuer the othe were not so generally conceiued your meaning is playnely to refuse the othe And therefore héere in the ende for a remembraunce to all the rest you must néedes strike vp the stroke with ala lia and desperatly without al dissembling for the matter vpholde a falshoode with falshoodes euen to the laste breathe Et fiunt nouissima illius hominis peiora prioris And the latter ende of that man is worsse than the beginning ¶ The answere to foure Chapters in Doctor Saunders seconde booke of the visible Monarchie of the Churche concerning the question here in hande of a Christian Princes supreme gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes First of the difference of both povvers the ciuill and Ecclesiastical in the original in the vse and in the end of eyther Secondly vvhether the Prince be the Supreme gouernour immediatly vnder Christ. Thirdly vvhether the Prince may iudge and define of ecclesiasticall matters Fourthly whether Bishops maye depose Princes from their estate and take from the realme their povver of electing their Prince if they differ in religion from their Bishops VVhich foure chapters I thought good here to answere vnto both bicause he is the last writer and chiefest novve of accompte among the aduersaries And these chapters aboue al other in his volume both draw neerest to the question of the Princes estate and shew vvithall the full drift of the Papists not only striuing agaynst the Princes supremacie but into vvhat extreme slauerie they vvould reduce all Christian Kinges and kingdomes The argument of the fyrst Chapter of the difference betweene the Ciuile and Ecclesiasticall Magistrate in the originall in the vse and in the ende of bothe MAster Saunders firste beginning with the original lconfesseth that both powers are of God but not both immediatly from God the ciuile power he granteth to be of God but by the lawe of Nations or the consent of people and other meanes of mans wit put betweene But streight he correcteth himselfe that some thing in the ciuill authoritie was reuealed immediatly from God yea Per multa in lege Mosaica diuinitus instituta suerunt verie manie things pertaining to the ciuill power were in Moses law ordeyned of God. And thus at the fyrst he speaketh contraries Herevpon he concludeth thus I thinke therfore it is agreed vpon among all men that the royal imperial power which at this day is exercised in
the church in euery cause wherof it is not otherwise disposed in the new testament is to be holden of the law of nations or of lawe ciuil To this I answer First this in part is true but in part so false that himself confutes himself making exceptioÌ„ of diuers things in the ciuill power that sproong immediatly froÌ„ God neither were those things as he falsly saithe Circa res terrenas about earthly matters but about ecclesiasticall matters in the law of Moyses And although their ceremonial causes and iudicials pertayning to ecclesiasticall matters in the ciuil power be taken away with the ceremoniall and indiciall lawe of the Iewes yet the ciuil power hath like authoritie in the like causes ecclesiastical of the new testameÌ„t as is shewed out of S. Aug. against M. St. the Donatistes Secondly where he sayeth all the ciuil power nowe of christian kings and Emperors is all of the law of nations or ciuil except in cases otherwise disposed in the new testament I answer this may well be graunted and yet the ciuil power hath authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiastical for so not only in the old testament but also in the newe Testament it is playnly disposed Thirdly to this diuision of the original of both these estates that the ecclesiastical is from God immediatly the ciuil by other meanes I answere this distinction faileth both by his own tale saying Ciuilis à deo plerunque est per media quaedam the ciuil power is oftentimes from God by certain meanes If it be oftentimes by certaine meanes then it is not alwayes and but accidentall not of the nature of the estate for so it is also immediatly from God. And the like accident falleth out likewise of the ecclesiastical estate that although the power be immediatly from God yet many causes in it called Ecclesiastical be also Per media quadam humani ingenij interposita by certain meanes of mans wit put betwene For this cause sayth M. sand the ciuil power among the heathen that know not god is found to be the same that is extant with faithful kings although Christ wold not haue such power in the ministers of his kingdom for he said the Princes of the nations rule ouer them and they that are iuniors exercise power ouer them so shall it not be among you I answere first Maister Saunders this is a like slander to M. Stapletons fo 29. a. b. The ciuil power is not found to be the same in heathen Princes that knowe not God and in Christian Princes that know God there is a very great difference betwene these so different estates wherin the one acknowledgeth all his power to be of God and hath it described and limited by Gods word the other takes it al for hu main naturall not so much as knowing God by your own confession from whome the originall of it springeth Secondly to that you saye suche power is debarred by Christe from his ministers If yée meane by suche power suche power as is among the Heathen suche is not onely debarred from them but from christian Princes too If ye meane suche power as Christian Princes haue is debarred from the ministers of Christ then say ye true But howe then dothe youre Pope chalenge and vsurpe bothe suche and the same also Yea your selfe afterwarde reason moste earnestly thoroughout all the fourth chapter following that the ministers of Christe may haue it Wherin ye speak cleane contrary both to Christ and to your self Thirdly I note this eyther youre grosse ignoraunce or your impudent falshood in altering the wordes of Christe He sayth not they that are iuniors or yongers the Texte is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they that are great whiche are cleane contrarie If M. Stapleton were your aduersarie he would rattle ye vp Master Saunders for so foule a scape Nowe to fortifie a difference betwéene the Ecclesiastical power and the Ciuill he vrgeth that the spiritual kingdom of Christ is in this worlde but not of this worlde as for the earthly kingdome is bothe in and of this world but the ecclesiasticall power is the spirituall kingdome of Christ therfore there is a difference but the spirituall kingdom of Christ excelleth all worldlyâ—… kingdomes therfore they are stark fooles that in any ecclesiasticall thing to be administred preferre the earthly kings before the pastors of the Churche I answere all these conclusions are impertinent If there be any follie it is to striue for that that is not in controuersie We graunt a difference betwixt both powers and kingdomes althoughe a question is to be moued what he meaneth here by ecclesiasticall power If he take it as the Papistes do we denie that ecclesiasticall power to be the spiritual kingdome of Christ. For their ecclesiasticall power is ouermuch not in the worlde but of the worlde also If he meane by ecclesiasticall power the spirituall kingdome of Christ as he in his word hath ordeyned the fame although there be a difference betwene the power in the kingdom and the kingdome in the which the power is yet we graunt this gladly that no wise man will preferre the earthly kings in any spiritual thing to be administred before the pastors of the churche But this is nothing againste the earthly kings preferment ouer the spirituall pastor to ouersée him rightly and spiritually to administer his spirituall things in the ministration whereof all earthly kings oughte to giue place vnto him which we did neuer denie And sith there is no comparison betwene Christ the sonne of God who is also God himself and a creature of the law natural or ciuill neither is there any comparison betwixt the power ecclesiastical which is wholly giue vnto vs by only Christ the mediator the power royall which either altogether or almost altogether is not ordeined of God but by the lawe of nations or ciuill for although God hath reuealed froÌ„ heauen that belongeth to the power royall if notwithstandyng that pertained not to eternall saluation which is hid in Christ but to contein peace among men that is to be reckned to be reuealed no otherwise than to be a certain declaration which he had grafted in vs by Nature or else euen necessitie ought to haue wroong out of vs or profite according to the seedes of nature ought to haue brought to light I answere first we graunt that the ecclesiastical power not as the Papists stretche it but as it is giuen vnto vs by only Christ the mediator is farre superior without all comparison than the royal power of Princes Howbeit this hindreth not but as the ministers are mediators thereof to vs the royall power of Princes hath againe an other superior gouernment to ouersée that there be no other ecclesiasticall power exercised by the mediation of the Minister than Christ the only mediator hath ordeyned And to remoue all popish â—…oysting in giuing vs quid pro quo whiche when
the royall power hath done it submitteth it selfe to the true power ecclesiasticall as not hauing a superioritie of all ecclesiasticall matters to exercise or doe them but hauing a superioritie in all ecclesiastical matters to ouersée them rightly don and exercised And this distinction of of and In M. Sanders him selfe vsed immediatly before and vseth againe in the fourth chapter folowing which also is a common distinction and therfore I maye well vse it bycause it not onely expresseth the manner of the Princes Supremacie but also detecteth the Papistes common fallatiâ—…n as thoughe by the name of Supreme gouernour the Queenes Maiestie tooke vppon hir the gouernement Ecclesiasticall when shée onely taketh vpon hir that is due vnto hir a gouernement in causes ecclesiasticall Secondly I answere that although there be no comparison betwene these two powers yet is the royall power farre aboue that which here he makes it that nothing belonging to this power hath bâ—…n reuealed from heauen pertaining to eternal saluation hid in Christ but only to matters that conserue peace among men springing of the seedes of nature either for profite or necessitie Herein he saith in dede as St. doth but this is no lesse manifest vntruth than shamefull slauÌ„der to all christian princes estates The Scripture is euident to the contrarie as well in Gods institution of the royall power as in all the examples of godly Princes commended in the Scripture not so much for their worldly policie Iustice peace and naturall giftes as for matters pertaining to eternall saluation both hidde in Christe and reuealed in Christe also And let these things sayth he be spoken for the originall of either power The seconde point of difference he maketh in the vse and office saying But so farre as belongeth to the vse and office of those thynges wee knovve that distinction to bee obserued in them that he which had the full power ecclesiasticall might also haue had in gouernyng the people of God vvithoute any especiall consecration as happened in Noe in Melchizedech in Abraham in Moyses in Helie and in Samuel and in the Machabees Howebeit it was not onlyke sorte true that hee vvhiche eyther by the Lawe of Nations oâ—… the Ciuil was kyng whiche is the firste degree of honour in this kynde shoulde streightway haue also the power Ecclesiasticall except that right had ben giuen vnto him by especiall consecration Yée confonnde your owne tale Maister Saunders and speake contraries Before ye sayde speakyng of the Ciuil power of faythfull Kinges Christus talem in sui regni Ministris esse noluerit Christe in the Ministers of his his kingdome woulde haue no suche power Now ye say He that hadde the one power had vvithout any especiall consecration the other also And hereto yée â—…ite these holye Fathers Noe Melchizedech Abraham Moyses Hâ—…lie Samuel and the Machabees Were none of these Ministers in the kingdome of Chryste Besydes this ye confoâ—…nde your distinction heaping vp confusedly these wytnesses of the whych but one serueth proprely to the purpose of the former part of youre distinction for the Priestes to haue had the Ciuil power â—…nd that is Helie to whome proprely the Ecclesiasticall power belonged being the high Priest and likewise had the Ciuil power béeing the Iudge also But yet this was not without some especiall consecration or appoyntment of God thervnto For else eyther it had ben ordinarie to his predecessours or he had vsurped it sithe none was Iudge among the Israelites all the whyle that the Ciuil power was directed by that kinde of gouernement but those that were by especiall calling appointed of God thereto As for the other were of dyuerse tymes and sortes The holye Patriarkes Noe Melchizedech and Abraham hadde I graunte also bothe powers Ecclesiasticall and Ciuil But at that tyme before the lawe when bothe estates pertayned to them by their birthrighte And this maketh rather for the Ciuill magistrate to haue had the ecclesiastical power than for the Ecclesiastical magistrate to haue had the ciuill power For the gouernment descending to them by reason of their birthright was a naturall or ciuill gouernment as your selfe before confessed saying Eâ—…enim vt pater infilium c. For as the father hath a certain power ouer his sonne the grandsier ouer his nephew and so foorth the elder ouer the yonger this verily god hath wrought by the lawe naturall while by the maner and order of my birth he declareth him to be my superiour which either ministred the cause why I should be borne or else is ioyned in some kindred with him by whome I was borne And so these Patriarkes by birthright hauing the ciuil power by the law of Nature as ye confesse had not the ciuil power bycause they had the Ecclesiasticall but rather had the Ecclesiasticall power bycause they had Ciuile power by natural righte till these two offices were by the Lawe of Moyses seuered As for Moyses and the Machabees were indeed of the tribe of Leui. Moyses had power in bothe estates but béeing before the Ecclesiasticall power was lotted to the tribe of Leui and béeing the lawemaker in appoynting it to the race of his brother Aaron his example maketh agayne for the Ciuile Magistrate rather to haue hadde the gouernement in Ecclesiasticall matters than the Ecclesiasticall in the Ciuill The Machabees by an extraordinarie vocation had the Ciuile power As for Samuell was also of the tribe of Leui but yeÌ„t no Prieue althoughe a Prophet and the Iudge also but by especiall calling of God thereto Nowe all these estates béeyng thus diuers bothe in sortes and tymes hee confoundeth together to enforce his obseruation that the Priestes ordinarylye maye deale in the Princes office but in no case the Prince maye deale with any thing belonging to the Priests and yet his owne examples make agaynst him But he addeth without some especiall consecration But what especiall consecration had Dauid had Salomon had Ezechias c. to gouerne the Priests in their ecclesiasticall matters We reade of no especiall consecration other than the dutie of their royall power But wherto tendeth all this forsooth priests may deale with Princes and take the Ciuil power vpon them ordinarily but Princes in no case may deale with Priests Herevpon say you when Ozias woulde haue offred incense vpon the altar of incense Azarias the Priest wente in after him and with him the Priestes of the Lorde resisted the king and sayde It is not thy office Ozia to offer incense to the Lorde but it is the office of the Priests that is to say of the sonnes of Aaron that are consecrated to suche mysterie The example of Ozias is often â—…rged of himselfe and al his fellowes howbeit it is méere impertinent flaundederous The Prince taketh not vpon hir as Ozias woulde haue done the power nor office nor administration ecclesiasticall But suche power as Ozias did well take vpon him while
he was a good king in ouerséeing the Priestes do their dueties and not him selfe intruding into the doing of their duties But of this exaÌ„ple we haue heard somwhat already in answering master Stapleton and we shal haue more agayne in M. Saunders fourth Chapter and therfore I reserue my selfe to the larger answere of it To this he addeth an Item of Iosaphat saying Itemque c. And also Iosaphat the king of Iuda distinguishing both powers sayde to the Leuites and the Priests Amarias the Priest and your Bishop stil gouerne in those things that perteine to god Moreouer Zabadias the sonne of Ismaell who is the captayne in the house of Iuda shal be ouer those workes that perteyne to the office of the king Beholde other thinges perteyne to the office of the Bishop and other to the the kinges office This we haue beholden alreadie in Master Stapletons obiection of the same and there may you M. Saunders beholde the answere And thus muche agayne for the vse of both these powers Now thirdly for the end therof saith M. Saunders Of the ende of both powers not the last but the middle ende that the ciuill power toucheth nought but this lyfe Christ saith Feare not theÌ„ that kil the body but they can not kill the soule And agayne the Apostle willeth vs to pray for kings those that are in authoritie that we may hue a quiet and peaceable life A quiet life therefore is the last ende of the ciuill power dwelling without the Churche But of that which is in the Church it is not the last but yet the proper ende it is VVhyle in the meane time the eccl. power belongeth to the lyfe to come as Christ hath sayde whatsoeuer ye lose on earth shall be loosed in heauen To this distinction of the endes of these powers I answere it is false not only the laste ende as he graunteth but the meaner endes also of the ciuill power in the church of Christ stretche further than this lyfe I appeale to the Princes institution and office Deuter. 17. I appeale to all the doings of the godly Kings Iudges and ciuill magistrates described in the scripture I appeale to Constantine the great that thought religion to be the chiefe ende of hys gouernment Yea I appeale to the places that euen héere M. Sanders citeth for his purpose â–ª manifestly wresting â—… mayming that of S. Paule to Timothie For he sayth not onely Ut quietam tranquillam vitam agaâ—…us That we may leade a quiet and peaceable life and there endeth but he addeth further withall in omni pietate honestate in all godlynesse honestie In which two words chiefly al godlinesse what is included is at large declared against master Stapleton But before this place M. Sanders citeth the testimonie of Christ that the prince can do no more but kill the body I answere Christe makes not the proper ende of the Princes power to kill the body but rather as you said before out of S. Paule to saue it To kill it is an accidentall tude of his power yet Iwisse Christ spake not there onlye of ciuil Princes but as muche agaynst the tyrannie of the highe Priests or any other that woulde persecute the ministers of Christ to death as your Pope you his chaplaynes do But I pray you M. sand may not an ill Prince wrest his authoritie to destroy the soule also with maynteyning Idolatrie false religion In déede he can not kill the soule for properly it can not be killed But that kind of killing that the soule may suffer which is sinne and damnation the rewarde of sinne with the one striken of the deuil by malice and wounded of him selfe by errour with theother striken of God by Iustice and deserued of him selfe by sinne may not the ill Prince make his power be a meane therto and may not an ill priest on this wise kill the soule as wel and sooner than he I wot what your pope Pius 2. was wont to say Malâ—… medâ—…ci corpus imperiti sacerdotes animam oâ—…cîdunt Ill Phisitions kil the body but vnskilfull Priests kill the soule You say your power stretcheth to the life to come In déede M sand the true eccl. power stretcheth to the life to come I feare me yours doth stretch to life as ye say but not to come but onely to the present life of the body but to death of body and soule both nowe and to come for euer Besides al this I appeale euen to your owne selfe M. sand that affirme the ciuil power in the church of Christ to stretch to farre further more proper endes thaÌ„ this life for in your fourth chapter folowing ye haue this quotation Christianâ—…rum regna leâ—…ularia non sunt Christian kingdomes are not worldly Wheron ye haue these words Moreouer the kingdomes of the faythfâ—…ll Princes whose people feare â–ª God are not altogither earthly or worldly for in that parte that they haue beleeued in Chryst they haue as it were lefte to be of the worlde and haue begonne to be members of the eternall kingdome For although the outwarde face of thinges which is founde in kingdomes meere secular be in a Christian kingdome Yet sithe the spirite of man is farre the moste excellent parte of him and the whole spirite acknowledgeth Christ his king and onely Lorde I see nothing why Christian kingdomes ought not to be rather iudged spirituall according to their better parte than earthly And this is the cause why now so long since those which gouerned the people of God were wont to be anointed of his ministers no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priests For euen the kings them selues also are after a sort â–ª partakers of the spiritual ministerie wheÌ„ they are anoynted Not that they shoulde do those thinges that are committed to the onely priestes hereto orderly consecrated but that those thinges whiche other kinges referre to a prophane and worldly ende these kinges shoulde nowe remember that they ought to directe to an holy ende For when they them selues are meere spirituall it is fitte that they shoulde wyll that all their thinges shoulde also be accounted as it were spirituall Loe M. Saunders in these wordes ye confesse farre other proper endes and farre other estates also in the ciuill power of Christian Princes than this lyfe of the body and the quiet tranquillitie therof And therfore what néede further witnesse when your selfe are not onely contrarie to your selfe but also beare witnesse agaynst your selfe Now wheÌ„ M. Sanders hath thus prosecuted these three differences of these two estates he collecteth his conclusion saying But if the ecclesiasticall power differ from the ciuill in the originall in the vse and in the ende and so well the beginning of the ecclesiasticall power as the vse and ende is farre the more worthy shall they not of wise men be iudged mad which either confounde these powers
wife or any other mans wife daughter or mayde in things perteyning to their duties and offices can and ought to doe Especially sithe your selfe in prosecuting this argument vrge the example of a woman All the women in his kingdome are his subiects so well as the men He hath a supreme gouernment ouer all persons in all causes can he therfore do their duties and yet he can haue the supreme gouernment to maynteine all lawes of matrimonie and to punishe all whordomes and yet not like euery somoner or other executioner of their punishements If ye say a woman may be no inferiour gouernour That is false a wife hath inferiour gouernment in hir housholde and many women haue had inferiour gouernments vnder kings in common weales as the Lady regentes in Flaunders c. But what if she were not an vndergouernour yet if she be a subiect gouerned the words of your definition coÌ„prehend hir saying A chiefe gouernour hath of necessitie the power of doing all those thinges which may be wrought of the inferiours to the magistrates of that congregation by their office or by any charge belonging properly to the same congregation But you will say perhaps that women are of an other kinde so that the king can not do al their offices As likewise for the ecclesiastical gouernment the Apostles might not lawfully do all those things that the widdowes chosen to serue in the congregation mighte and ought to do nor the ciuill magistrate of those congregations might or ought to do them Then will M. Feckenham presse you that your definition is false a gouernour can not do all things that belongeth to a subiect If ye say a woman is not a subiecte that is false If ye say she is not a subiect in respect she is a woman that is false also for both men and women are subiectes to their gouernours If ye say she is not a subiecte in respect she is a wife although I graunt the worde wife hath an other relation than to the king to wife vnto hir husbande yet what auayleth this sithe many offices haue many other relations also the sonne to his father the seruant to his master the scholler to his scholemaster and yet all these be subiects to the Prince although the Prince can not deale in all their seuerall offices But you thinke to salue all the matter with this exception I say not that he which is endowed with chiefest power should straight wayes haue the knowledge of euery lesser office for this perteyneth to the fact and not to the right Neither say I it is alwayes comely that he should execute the inferiour offyce by him selfe but I say there is no lawe to let him no power wants whereby the chiefe magistrate shoulde not do those things which the inferiours in the same common weale are wonte to doe Go to go to M. Saunders ye will still be like the gentleman that would fayne haue eaten his worde if he durst for shame Ye come in pretily and beginne to make some exceptions already you admitte he may wante knowledge of many things perteyning not to his office yea and that it is vncomely he should do them And in déede M. Saunders if you be thinke ye of euery subiectes doings ye shall finde many vncomely and vnreuerent things for so highe an estate to do and many things that he knowes no more howe to do them him selfe than that Cooke that would put mustarde into his milke to season it What and may the Prince do those things him self that are so vile and wherof he hath no knowledge He may say you and he will what righte or lawe may let him If ye talke M. Saunders of a wilfull foole that will caste him selfe and his kingdome away if ye talke of a tyraunt whose will is lawe that sayth as the Pope doth Sic volo sic iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas that is another matter But if ye talke of a king and of a lawfull power then I say his will and power oughte to be restrayned by lawe to do nothing vnskilfully nor vncomely for his estate I graunt he may abase him selfe to some inferiour kinde of offices to do them but not to all no not by the right of his royall estate And yet by his gouernment all those thinges are done that are orderly done Although he him selfe may not do them though he would Do ye not remember S. Paules similitude so ofteÌ„ vsed by your selfe M. Saunders of a coÌ„mon weale resembled to our body The head ye say often gouerneth all the parts and meÌ„bers but the head it selfe doth not nor can not do al that al the parts members do We stande not we go not we sit not on our heads our head reacheth not nor caÌ„ reach euery thing that our hande can reache doth Nor the head doth or can do the office of the shouloers back or belly yet ye graunt the head hath supreme gouernment ouer al these parts deuiseth lawes orders diets prouisioÌ„s helpes for all the parts and actions in the parts of all the body Thus ye sée not only by similitudes examples in which I might be infinite agaynst your thâ—… exaÌ„ples but also by good reason your definition of a supreme gouernour faileth he may be a lawful supreme gouernour yet can not do al the offices of his inferiours Yea it were vnlawful for him to attempt many such things and yet his lawfull supreme gouernmeÌ„t euen ouer all those things that he him selfe can not do nor ought to do is no whit therby empayred And therfore this is a false principle to builde as ye do thereon Nowe this béeing thus playnly proued a false groundeworke let vs sée howe ye procéede to frame your argument on it VVhich things beeing thus foretouched I adde vnto them that the supreme head or gouernour of any Church is the supreme magistrate of that coÌ„mon weale which no man hauing his right minde will denie Therfore if the king may rightly and worthily be named the supreme head or gouernour of that Churche as nowe this good whyle is done in Englande the same king shall also necessarily haue the facultie of working all those things which of that magistrate of that Churche may be wrought otherwyse he is not the gouernour of that Church in respecte it is a Church But in euery christian kingdome there are and ought to be many that shoulde preache the worde of God to the faythfull that shoulde baptise in the name of the father and of the sonne of the holy ghost the nations coÌ„uerted that should remitte sinnes that shoulde make the sacrament of thanksgiuing distribute it therfore he that is the supreme gouernour of any Church ought to be endowed with such power that no law should let wherby he might the lesse fulfil do al these things But a secular king although he be a christian can not do these things by the
euer the Temple was builte And in the meane time were all the priestes or the high priestes eyther cleare from Idolatrie very muche Idolatrie was vsed before the state of kings among them If the priestes hadde then that supreme gouernement which ye pretende howe chaunce they let it not but rather let it alone which if it were not as yll was the nexte dore by to leading to Idolatrie As for the priestes that were after the Temple was builte till it was firste destroyed that is from Sadocke the highe prieste vntill Iosedech that was caryed captiue into Babylon al which time we haue little mention of the high priestes for their restrainte or speaking againste Idolatrie But we haue many outeries of the prophetes against Idolaters yea against the priestes highe and lowe as abetters to Idolatrie And how good soeuer you make them Ieremie makes them all in his time starke naught and they agayne went about to procure his death for his laboure But as for the highe priestes that followed after the temple was reedified many of them were euill Eliasib the high prieste transgressed the lawe in ioyning affinitie with the heathen enimie of the Iewes Tobias and building a lodging for him in the temple whiche was the defyling of it Wherefore Eliasib was worthely reproued of Nehemias Iohn the high priest killed Iesus his brother in the temple while they straue ambitiously for the Priesthoode After whome Iaddi and Manasses contending for it when Manasses was chased awaye by Nehemias for marrying the daughter of the wicked heathen Sanballat he erected another temple in the Mount Garrizin Notiong after Onias the sonne of Simon was so couetons as Iosephus saythe that by denying the tribute payde before the Temple and all Iury was indanger After whome succéeded Iosephus with no lesse bryberie of the heathen Prince than extortion and pylling of the people Next to whome or as some saye after Onias succéeded Iesus or Iason after muche hurly burly betwixte Simon and Onias the one appeaching the other to be a Traytor till this Iason stept in betwene them and by vnlawfull meanes obtayned to be the high prieste by giuing a hundreth and sixtie talents of siluer and eightie talents of rente and a hundreth and fiftie talentes to sette vp suche exercises among the Iewes as were among the heathen Grecians and contrarie to the Lawe of god After whome succéeded Menelans who being sent of Iason to Antiochus betrayeth Iason And offering thrée hundreth talents of siluer more than Iason did he got the high priesthoode by bryberie to himselfe bysides that he was a Sacrilegious théefe and murtherer But Menelaus not paying the excessiue summes that he promised was faine to take his héeles and runne away and left his brother Lysimachus priest in his steade that for his wickednesse and cruell tyranniâ—… was slaine in a tumulte that he himselfe had raysed After whom partly by reason of these monstrous traitors partly by reason of the tyrant Antiochus rage and persecution the temple lay waste was destroyed these 〈◊〉 time When as for the space of 5. or 6. yeares ther was no 〈◊〉 priest at al neither better nor â—…orsse to guiâ—…e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Machabeâ—…s recouered HierusaleÌ„ whose brother Ionathes after him SimoÌ„ Simons son Hircanus were made both Princes high priests also who althogh they were good meÌ„ yet were they made high Priests by the heathen Monarke vnder whome they gouerned and were more like to valiant Captaines as the necessitie of the tyme was driuen vnto rather than like to learned priestes or Byshoppes In whose time an other Onias claiming the high Priesthoode builded in Aegipt a Temple like to the Temple at Hierusalem to sacrifice in And at which time sprang vp the sectes of the Saduâ—…es the Pharisies and the Esseni when the residue of the high priestes Aristobulus Hircanus c. fell to knocking one another partly for the priesthoode partely for the kingdome till Herode being a stranger got the kingdome from them And they bought and sold the high priesthoode â—… kept it by courses being cleane degenerate from the Law of God except some odde man amongst the rest were iust as Zacharie the Father of Iohn Baptist the most part were euill and waxed worsse and worsse till they had put Christe to death and afterwarde destroyed themselues and all their Countrey too And yet see howe impudently M. Saunders vauntes and crakes of the priests in comparison of the Princes where the euill Princes hauing led the people and that through the councell of euill priestes into Idolatrie and to captiuitie the high priests led them to the murther of Iesus Christe to the vtter ouerthrowe of their estate and to the cleane casting them off from God saue that we hope some remnant shal be saued Iudge now whether of these 〈◊〉 were worsse eyther the Priestes or Princes But Master Saunders to shewe himselfe not partiall for his priestes bringeth forth for witnesse one that he ascribes this highâ—… priesthoode vnto which is Pope Gregorie saying VVherevpon saith Gregorie entreating of this request of a king worthily complaineth the L. that he is cast off worthely he graunteth the royal dignitie being offended For truely so greate was the iniquitie of the crauers that siâ—…he they desired that wherby they should go from God it might be permitted by the iudgment of God to be forbidden perchance it would be better read to be allovved or approued it could not â–ª And againe for those that liued vnder the spirituall gouernment to desire a king vvhat is it else than to reioyce to turne the same spirituall prelacie into secular gouernment This testimonie of Gregorie Maister Saunders coÌ„mes a little out of place belike it shoulde haue béene set before when ye spoke of Samuels gouernment of the peoples desiring a king and of gods offence therewith For here thys Vnde Gregorius vvherevpâ—…n Gregorie hangeth vpon your last matter of the Priests sacrificing onely in the temple as though it were tyed on with points howbeit it hanges not so il on the residue as M. Saunders scarce can make it hang together with it self For he not onely correctes the sentence saying prohiberi to be prohibited should better be read probari or approbari to be allovved or approued but also he corrects it with a cleane contrarie exposition For to be prohibited is not to be allovved or approued and to be allovved or approued is not to be prohibited And so while he himselfe can not tell what to make of the sentence and woulde expounde it cleane contrarie what should we make of it as for the displeasure of God wee haue shewed alreadye by a large and plaine sentence out of Lyra which is for his life a more cocke sure papist than eueÌ„ this Pope Gregorie was the it was not bicause the kings estate was worse or more inferior than the state of the Iudges was but bicause the kings
vvere in times past the Leuitical priests yea rather sith the Apostle treating of the Ministers of the nevve Testament conferring them with the olde Leuites sayth that they ministred death and the letter that killed but these minister the spirit which quickneth and righteousnesse and therfore the ministers of the nevve Testament are more vvorthie than the olde Leuites vvhat maner of king shal vve thinke him to bee vvhiche contemning the ministers of the nevve Testamente calleth himselfe the supreme head of his Christian kingdome and that immediatly vnder Christ This comparison Maister Saunders of the ministers of the olde and nevve Testament rightly vnderstood wée acknowledge The nevve is more vvorthy than the olde but the vvorthinesse and glory of the nevv ministration that saint Paule speakes on is spirituall and not outvvard glory For although the ministers of the olde Testament had outwarde glory and some of them by especiall calling had the visible supreme and ciuill gouernement although seldome yet the ministers of the nue testament are by Christ as your owne selfe haue confessed flatly forbidden it Vos autem non sic but you shall not be so And therefore where ye woulde haue them of no lesse dignitie meaning of outvvard glory and gouernment or else your example holdes not they are of farre lesse dignitie therein notwithstanding in a spirituall and invvarde glory they are againe of a farre greater dignitie than the olde Which spirituall dignitie if any King shoulde contemne you might then well demaunde vvhat maner of king he were and we woulde answere you hée were a wicked King but as these are two distinct dignities the spirituall dignitie of the minister and the visible supremacie of the King so may they be and are with vs well and godly vsed both of them Where both the Prince hath the outward dignitie of supreme head or gouernour vnder Christ and yet the ministers spirituall dignitie is not onely no whit contemned but hath his honor yelded due vnto him And therefore we denie not that which followeth For if he acknowledge not the Ministers of Christe ouer him he can not be blessed of them VVherevpon neither can he be pertaker of the sanctifying spirite whose ministers they are We graunt Maister Saunders that the Prince humbly receiueth their blessing and is partaker of the holy spirite of God whose ministers they are in these actions Wherein the Prince acknowledgeth them to represent God and is vnder them But what hindreth this that in other respectes they againe are vnder him and he their supreme gouernour but Maister Saunders procéedeth saying Dauid cryeth and nowe ye kings vnderstande and be ye learned ye that iudge the earth apprehend discipline least the Lorde waxe wroth and ye perishe oute of the right waye But if kings must be learned then so farre forth they must be vnder For he that is learned is learned of some maister and is scholler to him of whome he is learned the disciple is not aboue his maister but in that thing that he learneth of his maister of necessitie he is inferior That kings ought to be learned we gladly confesse and are glad that you confesse it althoughe againste your wylls for ye would rather haue them altogither vnlearned whom ye haue so long detained in blindnesse But why woulde ye haue them nowe learned forsothe bicause you would onely be their maisters and so they shoulde be still your vnderlings not onely in learning suche ill lessons as you woulde teache them but vnder pretence of teachers to be their gouernours too True it is in that the teacher teacheth he is aboue and in that the learner learneth he is vnder â—…ut the teacher is not aboue nor the learner vnder in other things Thoughe Moyses learned of Iethro yet in gouernement Moyses was aboue him Thoughe Dauid learned of Nathan yet in gouernement he was aboue him Thoughe Ozias learned of Iudith yet in gouernement he was aboue hir And so all princes that are taughte of their schole maisters their scholemaister maye be the better in learning but he is the worser in authoritie And thoughe he be the maister in knowledge yet he makes euen his knowledge wherby he is maister to serue the Prince also Yea although the Prince be not his maister in learning yet in all causes of learning the Prince hath a generall supreme gouernement to sée by his lawes euery kinde of learning maintayned in his order to forbid naughtie artes to be learned to appoint such suche an order methode to be taught or learned as learned men enforme him is good and easie to the attaining of learning to appaynt scholes and learned scholemaisters for learning and to giue them lawes statutes and stipendes for the maintenance of learning all this may the Prince doe by his supreme authoritie ouer all learned persons and in all causes of learning althoughe he himselfe be altogether vnlearned and can not one letter on the booke Althoughe woulde to God all Princes were learned not as the Papistes woulde haue them but as Dauid was and exhorteth all Princes to bée And thus as thys sentence makes nothing in the worlde for him so hys example thereon makes verye muche againste him But for all thys argumente be thus simple he wyll loâ—…de vs with further proues saying Sithe therefore it is sayde to the Apostles Go teache ye all nations and sith vnder the names of nations the kings of them are comprehended and Byshops and Priests haue succeeded the Apostles in the office of teaching truely in the offyce of teachyng the Byshoppe is greater than his king so farre is it off that the king can be the Bishops hed in all things causes VVhich title notwithstanding is not onely of these men giuen to a king but also by publique decree of late in Englande giuâ—…n vnto a Queene To reason froÌ„ teaching to gouerning is no good teaching M. SauÌ„ders If ye teach this doctrine theÌ„ your Pope should haue little gouernment for God wot he teacheth little being often times vnlearned and alwayes to proud to teache If ye say he teacheth by others so caÌ„ a prince too And though he could himselfe teache and would also teach the truth and not suppresse it yet sith ye say he succedes the Apostles but in the office of teaching he is no furder superior than he teacheth by your owne reckoning Neither would this superioritie be denyed him of any that he ought to teache if he in dâ—…de succeded the Apostles But if the succession of the Apostles consist in teaching as here ye confesse then hath not the Pope to crake muche of succeeding Peter and Paule that teacheth not as Peter and Paule did as woulde to God he did and all priests or Bishops else Whiche if they did and taught truely this woulde augment and not diminishe the Princes supreme authoritie yea and the Quéenes too Maister Saunders for in gouernement before ye
eight a pyller of his subiecte â–ª vnder whom his subiectes lyued in suche prosperitie and abundance in 〈◊〉 renoune and glorie when all their 〈◊〉 â—…o dradde them for theâ—…oble conduct gouernment of such a Prince as all things considered we finde not the like in all the ancient histories Did he pill them that delyuered theÌ„ from the greatest piller and spoiler of them froÌ„ al his insatiable Caterpillers that had pilled the Prince the Sâ—… biectes and all the Realme and had gotten almoste all the goodes and lâ—…ndes into their clutches yea their bodies and soules also Did he pill the realme that brought the greatest ryches into the Realme the Gospell of Chryste and Christian libertie that euer the Realme could haue Ye quarel at the basenesse of the money Hath ther not bin worsse money in times past in Englande They saye that we had money of lether haue not the most of other Princes brasen coyne But I sée you haue a brasen face and a fonde malicious head Is the Princes coine counterfet with you and if it had bene a great deale worsse than it was can ye call it adulterate or forged No Saunders for here I must néedes leaue out Master such Traytors as you be are counterfeiters of money howbeit you are farre worsse traytors and forge a naughtie coine in the steade of Gods word to giue the people trifling traditions of your owne stampe and take good money for them You obiecte his wiâ—…es vnto him What meane ye by this ye wiuelesse and shamelesse generation ye dispisers and defilers of Matrimonie wold ye haue had him haue liued like you ye caused him in deede vnwittingly while hée ignorantly obeyed your Pope to liue wyth his brothers wife Whiche when he knewe he adhorred and forsoke as flatte againste Gods worde Thou shalte not vncouer the secretes oâ—… thy brothers wife And yet the Pope contrarie to Gods expresse lawe and the lawe of nature dispensed with it and you Papistes maynteine it tooth and nayle as a lawful maryage This in déede was his greatest misfortune to haue taken hir so long through too much credite of false Papistes to be his lawfull wife whiche was not his wife at all and yet both the parties ignorantly offended Aâ—… for his firste true and lawfull wife we maye saye indéede he had misfortune in hir too that he so muche credited the sclanderous vndermining Papists that neuer stinted to procure hir dâ—…ath for the hatred of the gospel that she professed And so at length most subtilly wrought it made hir a sweet sacrifice to God and a most holy martyr No misfortune but mosie happiâ—… hap to hir to sustaine so sclaunderdus a death in so innocent a cause the misfortune was the king hir husbandes to be so beguiled by such false Papistes And yet to vs this maryage was most fortunate which God so blessed with such a fruit as neuer the like did spring in Englande As for all King Heuries other wiues saue one were as as vertuous chast godly Quéenes as any Christian kyng coulde haue And yet the default of that one is not to be imputed vnto him which to die is more than cankred malice Lest of al ought it to be ascribed to the euent of his supreme gouernment Shoulde M. colsfolly be ascribed to Dauid yea shoulde a mans owne faults be accounted for the euent of his vertues should misfortunes following be déemed the effectes of godlynesse going before But you denie all this that this was godly to become this supreme gouernour and say king Henrie tooke it first vpon him But stay your haste Master Saunders When we come to the practise of christian Kings before king Henrie ye shall finde it contrarie and ye shall finde by that that is alreadie sayde to Master Stapleton that in the olde Testament Dauid Salomon Iosaphat c. toke vpon them this supreme gouernement in their kindomes that king Henrie dyd Ye say he was neuer the happier but the more vnhappier after he tooke it on him Whereas he neuer prospered better than after he had expelled the Popes vsurped authoritie For euen then began he indéed to raigne and rule other where before he bore the name of a king and was ruled by other the Pope his Prelates and Priestes hearing all the 〈◊〉 Besides the happiest happe of all the knowledge of God that by his supreme gouernement then beganne to florishe Nowe after his rayling on king Henrie he descendeth to king Edward the sixte saying And he beeing deade God by a maruellous manner shewed vnto all the world how litle this Ecclesiasticall Primacie and high calling was agreeable to kings For Henrie the eight being deade Edwarde his sonne a childe almost nine yere old succeeded in his kingdome If wee loke to the right that this childe had in the kingdome hee was no lesse king than his father was But if we turne our eyes vnto the state of the church verily there is a great difference whether it be gouerned of a childe or of a man of perfecte age Sée the insaciable malice of these Papistes not onely against the lyuing but the deade and that against their late most gratious soueraignes It suffiseth not to haue thus coÌ„tumeliously railed on the Quéenes Maiesties father of blessed memorie but also to deface hir Maiesties brother that most vertuous Prince king Edwarde saying he toke vpon him this Ecclesiasticall Primacie as though he or his father toke vpon him any ecclesiastical primacie bicause they toke vpon them a supreme gouernement in all ecclesiasticall matters But will he spare for spite to sclaunder them that presumeth to wrest and misconster Gods heauenly prouidence in calling king Edward to the kingdome while he was yet a child He graunteth he was as ful king as his father was Then say I he had al the right and authoritie that his father had But sayth he there is a great difference betwéene the right of a kingdome and the state of the Church whether it be gouerned of a child or of a man of perfect age As though we talked not M. SauÌ„ders of such a kingdome as were the Churche also or as though a kingdome consider it howe ye will require not likewise to be gouerned of one of perfecte age Or as though ther be not also a great differeÌ„ce betwene the right of authoritie belonging to the person be he child or maÌ„ and the personal gouerning of him But let vs heare M. Saunders arguments against a child He maketh exception against a child for two reasons first the example of Christe secondly the saying of S. Paule Cal. 4. Of the first he saith For if euen Christ toke not on him the gouernment of the Church before he attained to thirtie yeres of age how much lesse would he that the Church should be gouerned of a child I answere First the gouernment that Christ tooke at 30. yeares of age was
in his personal exercise of the ecclesiasticall functioÌ„ wherto a mature age is requisite But the kings Supremacie requireth no such personall exercise of ecclesiasticall function but is cleane another matter therfore this example of Christes age is impertinent Secondly we grauÌ„t the Churche shoulde not be gouerned of a childe in that respecte he is a childe in which consideration he is no king as you distinguished before betwene a man and a christiaÌ„ maÌ„ and ye must so againe distinguishe betwéene his nature and his person or his person and his office Nowe in regarde of his office the defecte of his nature is supplyed by those that represent him in his office and they béeing men of graue yeares and knowledge you can not iustly say the gouernement is committed to a childe The second argument is taken from S. Paule 4. Gal. Moreouer a childe so long as hee is a little one liueth vnder Tutors and gouernours and so the Supreme Heade of the Churche needeth another superior Head to gouerne and rule him and that not so muche by chaunce or fortune as by imbecillitie of his proper nature and the necessitie of the thing it selfe Howe can he therefore be the Supreme Head of the Church that liueth vnder an other head Ercept M. Saunders were bent pienishly to warble he would not reason thus knowing well inough that those of riâ—…er yeres which gouerne the kings person in his nonage be not his head and he a member or subiecte vnder them but they representing him he and they are but one in office and their gouernemente is not properly theirs but is the kings owne gouernemente And so the head hath no head ouer him but onely Iesus Christ. But M. Saunders foreseeing that by this reason he might make the childe no king at all of his kingdome which he before confessed that king Edwarde was as full king as his father he preuenteth the obiection and séeketh a scape to shifte it For if ye say by the same reason he is not king of his kingdome neither bicause he is compelled to gouerne that also by others the answere is easie it is no maruell if the lawe of man which placeth children ouer kingdomes by force of succession be founde imperfecte But it were greatly to be marueled if the lawe of Christ also whereby he placeth pastors ouer his Church coulde be accused in anie parte of imperfection For as Moses lawe brought nothing to perfection so on the contrarie the lawe of Christ lefte nothing vnperfect as whome it became to fulfill all righteousnesse Therefore there shall bee none much lesse anie chiefe head in the Churche of Christe the which by nature can not doe the office of an ecclesiastical head But a childe can neither teach nor baptize nor by anie meanes assoile the harder questions of the Gospell The answere M. Saunders as ye say is easie but is it a good answere it were an easie matter to answere if such easie answeres may serue that ye may say what ye will and contrarie your selfe too when ye finde an inconuenience And such an inconuenience as wipes away all your former reasons Neither can ye sufficiently aunswere it that if your reason hold of the defecte of the kings nonage while he is a chylde he may then be no gouernor at all no not in Temporall matters neither bycause therein he is gouerned of others also in that he is but yet a chylde and so in his kingdome shoulde become no gouernour at all But for an easie answere to this ye saye this is a defecte in the lawe of man. Why M. Saunders do ye nowe make this the lawe of man that a chylde myght be a King sayde ye not before and that more truely it was gods lawe Numeri 27. and Gal. 4. and cited for examples Ioas and Iosias and againe doe ye saye this is an imperfection in the lawe that is an imperfection in the person nay Maister Saunders the lawe of succession was good and perfecte Neither your sentence that ye cite of S. Paule the lawe brought nothing to perfection serues to this purpose Neither was the fault in the law but in the defecte of the obseruer But saint Paule speakes there of the morall law and of iustification which the lawe of God giuen by Moyses could not bring to perfection confuting an other error which the Phariseis the Pelagians and the Papistes holde But what is this to the present purpose Saint Paule complaineth not of the imperfection of the politike lâ—…w of the Iewes therfore this is manifestly wrested Ye obiect that Christs law is perfect as though S. Paules law Gal. 4. cited by your selfe for the kingdome of a child be not also the law of Christ and as for Christs law for the pastors of his Church â–ª we accuse it not to be imperfecte and yet in the pastors themselues there is no perfection althoughe Christes law for them be most perfect But what answereth this the purpose The Prince takes not the pastorall office on him nor to doe the office of an ecclesiasticall head as ye terme it nor to teache or baptise or astoyle the hard questions of the Gospell either in his noneage or in his full age either childe or man These are but your surmised sclaunders on the Prince But to deuise sclaunders is with you an easie answere Nowe vpon these argumentes against the supremacie of king Edward he knits vp his conclusion of the euent saying therefore sith God after not the best man calling him selfe the heade of the Churche did substitute a childe euen by the things themselues he admonished vs that that honour did not rightly agree to the father that was so euill applied to his sonne The more ye dâ—… still vnreuerently carpe at king Henry calling him not the best maÌ„ the more ye shew your cankred stomak M. Saunders that your selfe are one of the worst kind of meÌ„ whose malice no not death caÌ„ satiate But the more it redoundeth to the praise of that moste noble and vertuous king being holdeÌ„ for so much the better man of all good men how much the worse man such wicked men as you esteeme him ab illaudatis vituperari laudabile est it is commendable to be dscommended of discommendable men Your interpretatioÌ„ of a child succéeding him hath neither charitie nor truth neither can you frame anye good argumente on it but rather on the contrarie Where God so blessed the raigne of the childe that in so shorte a time so long rooted superstitions Idolatries were abolished and the word of God so truely and fréely set forth it argueth that God not onely liked the title of the father but also confirmed it in the sonne shewed well that the childhood of his person was no impediment to the authoritie of his office as you maliciously woulde wrest it After Kyng Edwarde ye come to Queene Marie saying Moreouer when men neither thus awaked
had not deliuered vs from it and yet sée if these Papistes that can so narrowly spie and proll at euery note in king Henry and kings Edwards dayes can in Quéene Maries dayes espie anye one of these great beames that were such apparante tokens of gods wrath that all men sawe and felt what euents succeeded the refusall of this title and the yéelding it to the Pope nerehand the cleane subuersion of this Realme if we may iudge by sequels Now after Quéene Marie he comes to the Quéenes Maiestie that now God be praised most prosperously raigneth ouer vs. But vvhen very many giuen to heresies vvere offended at this notable modestie of the Queene neither vvould they yet vnderstande his Counsell in gouerning his Churche God brought to passe that Marie of happie memorie being dead the kingdome of England should deuolue to such a vvoman as novve vvriteth hir selfe The supreme gouernesse in all matters and causes asvvell ecclesiasticall as secular That yet so at the length by the successe it selfe men of hard harte and obstinate necke mighte marke hovv euill king Henry tooke this office vpon him the vvhiche of his heire and successour could not duely and orderly be fulfilled For to whom it is not permitted to teach vvhich is the most necessarie office of an ecclesiasticall Head hovv shal she performe those greater offices that are occupied in the chastisement and correction of them that ought to teache the people or shall she vvhich is vnvvorthie that she should hir selfe teache publiquely in the lovvest degree moderate and reprehend vvith lavvful authoritie other publique teachers in the highest degree or if she can not lavvfully reprehend them shall she yet be lavvfully supreme gouernesse of the Church I omit here the things that in these yeares vvhich are last passed haue bene I knovv not hovv vncomely done and preached in Englande vnder such supreme heads of the Church I spare the dignitie of theÌ„ that gouerne Another time if God vvill I vvill handle them particularly hovve greatly both from the lavve of God and from the sentence of the auncient Churche and from righte reason that state of a common vveale is farre in vvhiche any king arrogateth to himselfe the office and name of the supreme head of the Church Is your part so false and weake of proues Maister Saunders that it can win no credite but by discrediting of ours with sclaunders and yet we woulde pardon this in you ascribing it either to some passion of choler against your aduersaries or to blinde affection of your selues that ye call verie manie of vs giuen to heresies hard harted and obstinate necked which are termes fitter to muster in M. Stapletons coÌ„mon places than to stuffe vp M. doctor Saunders volumes howe they redownde vpon your selues let other iudge â–ª that will reade and view of both But if we forgiue you this for our parts shal we stil suffer you to raile vpoÌ„ sclander the Lordes annoynted saying she arrogateth to hir selfe the office and name of the supreme Head of the Church speaking at randon withoute limitation of the Churche as the Pope doth arrogate to himselfe and taketh on hir to be an ecclesiasticall head and publique teacher of other that should teach hir these are too too infamous sclauÌ„ders of hir Maiestie that claimeth no such title nor attempteth any such thing What supreme gouernement is ascribed to hir highnesse we haue tolde you a thousand times but I sée ye will not vnderstand it bicause ye would of set purpose sclander it But to knit vp your argument of the euent and sequele of the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye say many things haue bin done and preached in England ye cannot tell hovv vnsemely â—… thinke euen the same M. Saunders ye can not tell howe â—…ndede But howe vnseemely a thing is this for one of your â—…rofession to chalenge ye cannot tell what nor howe ye set owne nothing but vnder a pretence of sparing vs to bréede â—…et a furder sclaunderous suspition ye threat vs that ye will â—…serue theÌ„ til a furder leisure that is to say ad Kalendas graecas til â—…e shall first know them and then be able to proue them in the meane seasoÌ„ ye take the wisest way to say such ther are but what they are ye cannot now tell ye wil learne theÌ„ out and tell vs another time but tell the worste ye canne ye shal neuer be able to tell of any fals doctrine preached and by the Prince approued to be preached nor of anye wicked facte allowed by publike authoritie to be done No Maister Saunders in all the Quéenes Maiesties raigne ye can neuer be able to proue any suche things but in the raigne of your Popes we can proue many such things as whordome committed and maintained murder done and maintained Idolatry vsed and maintained and infinite errors preached and maintained by publique authoritie among the Papists As for the Quéenes maiesties raigne that now is if the euent and sequele may make an argument God hath so blessed it maugre all your spites and practises that no Realme christian hath florished like nor Englande more at anye tyme The Lord be praised for it and for his mercie sake long continue it that hath giuen so goodly a token of his well liking hir Maiesties supreme gouernment The thirde Chapter The argument is that Princes can not iudge nor define in causes Ecclesiasticall OF those errors that are about the povver of kings and magistrats the secoÌ„d error is of theÌ„ that thinke kings are not in dede the chief heads of the Churches in vvhich they raigne but in certaine causes Ecclesiastiall to bee euen as vvorthie members as Bishops â–ª for although in one certaine thing as in the office of teaching they preferre Bishops before kings yet partly in another Ecclesiasticall matter as in deposing a Byshop from his seat or in moderating any synode they preferre kings before Bishops partly they vvill haue it free for kings that almoste in euery ecclesiasticall matter they may knowe and decerne as Iudges Of the confutation of whiche errour this is the reason that I should shewe in euery cause of the ecclesiastical lawe that is to be knowne and iudged Kinges to be so muche in the place of priuate men that this trial can not of the ecclesiasticall Iudges be committed vnto them Although I denie not but that of some facte that perteyneth to the eccl. lawe the knowledge may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates But before the eccl. cause be known the king may orderly intermeddle his authoritie to that ende that a quiet place may be graunted where the Bishops should iudge And also that the Bishops may be called at a certayne day to that place And that in the meane season whyle the ecclesiasticall cause is knowne the publique peace yea euen in the assembly of Priestes may be conserued To conclude after the cause knowne and iudged of the Pristes the king either by the sworde that he
more auncient If you your selfe Maister Saunders had béene auncient many woulde haue thoughte you had doated but nowe they will thinke you were to yong a diuine when you made this reason of antiquitie But let goe your reason is your matter true is Priesthoode of more antiquitie you say it is euen from the beginning vnder the lawe of nature Were it so M. Saunders said you not in the first Chap. of this seconde booke that the Ciuil power sprang euen of the law of nature also wherby the father is superior to his sonne the vncle to the cosin the senior to the Iunior is not this as auncient as Priesthode yea we read of no creation of Priesthoode so auncient But you saye there were no Kings as thoughe we contended on the name were he called king Prince Duke c â–ª so he were a gouernor As for the gouernors for certaine ages after Moyses before the kings trow you they were al priests Nay you shall finde but one priest among them all â–ª And yet you carie awaye the matter so smooth as thoughe they were all priests and saye the creation of priesthood according to the law of Moyses You meane I know the common cited place for the Iudges determination in litigious doubts Deut. 17. referring it onely to the priest But Moyses there expressely nameth the Iudge besides the high priest And to make you see how ye confute your owne error in taking this iudge to haue onely or chiefely béen the high priest marke your owne saying that the state of gouernement from Moyses to the kings was according to Moyses lawe But all that while of so many Iudges there was but one priest therefore eyther it was not according to Moyses lawe or else Moyses law ment not onely nor chiefely the Priests And trow you Moyses law was broken of discerning difficulties all this while and after the kings beganne to gouerne I thinke you dare not say it was nor accuse for the breach of Moyses law so many godly Princes If not then the discerning of those difficulties is impertinently alleaged against the Princes superioritie And thus not onely your reason from Antiquitie â—…ut also your matter for antiquitie against the state of Princes faileth Now to your other reasons Moreouer saye you the Priesthoode was altogether necessarie that the fygure shoulde at no time fayle VVhereby we shoulde be admonished of Christs eternall priesthood VVhen notwithstandyng the same people of God myght so haue waÌ„ted a king that God complayned that he himself was cast off when Samuel his Leuite beyng neglected an earthly king was demaunded Priesthood you say at no time could be spared so well as a kings estate And why so bicause it prefigured and admonished Christes eternall priesthoode True in déede Maister Saunders so it did But was there nothing to be prefigured and admonished concerning Christe but his eternall Priesthood hath he not an eternall kingdome too or was not it 〈◊〉 necessarie to be prefigured admonished as his priesthood So that by this rule Kings or that is all one in effect wiâ—…e kings Princes ouer gods people were euen as necessarie as priests But say you gods people might so well haue wanted kings that God complained he was cast off when Samuel his leuite neglected an earthly king was demanded Here is nothing left out the may seme to make for the defacing of the state of kings And yet that which he bringeth against it as is alreadie shewed doth the more commend the state therof and although they might haue wanted the state of a king yet could they neuer want the state of a Ciuil gouernor no more than they coulde haue wanted priesthoode Howbeit we say not they might haue wanted priesthood or did want it For they alwayes had priests among them good or bad But they alwayes had not priests their gouernors but very seldome and that extraordinarily till the Priest Hircanus was king and priest together Besides this saith M. Saunders the king was graunted of God at the peoples petition to goe out before the people to warre but not to administer ecclesiasticall matters for God had prouided for them alreadie by his leuites and priests Is there nothing maye be reckoned vp M. Saunders besides these twaine goyng out to warre before the people and administring ecclesiasticall matters in déede these two are not very agréeable although your Popes Prelats iumble them together As for the administring eccl. matters was and is the Priests office not the Princes But besides this there are manie moe things appointed to the Prince than to go out before the people to warre For if there were no more what should he do at home in time of peace breake peace and still go out to warre Ha M. Saunders there are other things than warfare for a Prince in peace to loke vnto and ye could hit them Moreouer saith he the Iewes might ascribe to the power of the king the diuision of the people the Apostacie of the kingdome of Samaria and the Captiuitie of Babilon VVhervpon they beyng returned from the captiuitie did not againe chose vnto them a king that shoulde be counted greater than the Bishoppe but a Captaine that shoulde rule no lesse in prophane matters than in holy things the Bishop shoulde be are the principalitie To ascribe the diuision of the people the Apostacie of Samaria and the Captiuitie of Babilon to the kingly power if it be not of wilfull malice is of great lacke eyther of skill or consideration and is a fallacion ab accidenti By the like reason we might accuse the Iewes priesthood bicause some of them were loyterers some of them Idolaters some of them ambitious yea the most of them in Christs time and his Apostles the extremest enemies of the Gospell What shall we ascribe all this to the priesthood No nor to any parte therof but to the naughtinesse of the Priests that abused their priesthood euen as much if not muche more than did those kings abuse their kingly power The kingdome was lightly neuer worse gouerned thaÌ„ wheÌ„ Helie being a Priest had the gouernance of it And although Samuel himselfe were good and holy yet his sonnes were wicked whome he made gouernours But in the stocke of the Machabées when the priests ruled all or the moste till the approching of Iesus Christ and so till the dissolution of that state what a number of wicked Imps were there you can scarce fet the lyke paterns excepte you rake hell or serche the Popes bedroll and his Cardinals for wicked gouernment But saith M. Saunders the Iewes after their retâ—…re from Captiuitie did no more chose a king that shuld be counted greater than the Bishop Ha go to then M. SauÌ„ders the king was counted greater than the Byshop before their Captiuitie Yea but say you they chose no more kings ofter their returne As thoughe M. Saunders after their returne the matter
therof so let this by the way be noted that he giueth Princes most free Principaliue 〈◊〉 thoâ—…e causes that 〈◊〉 not the faith and Religion of Christ. But to place good Bishops and pastors in gods Churche to remoue euill Bishops and pastors from gods Church â—…o puâ—… Idolatrie out of gods Gods Church to set forth suâ—…h 〈◊〉 seruice as is to edifie gods church to coÌ„mand the word of God to be read in the vulgar tongue to reforme Ecclesiasticall abuses to punishe whordoms to allow as honorable matrimonie in all men to call councels to commaund the Sacraments to be vsed as Christ ordeined theÌ„ to ouersée al estates degrées of persons in gods Church to do in al things to the glory of God to the publique preseruation of the Church to the faithful administratioÌ„ of their particular callings doth not diminishe the faith and ReligioÌ„ of Christ Therfore Christian Princes haue most free principalitie that is to say supreme gouernment in al these eccl. so wel as in ciuil causes Now that he hath granted to Princes thus much which coÌ„prehendeth all the question he declareth on the other side what he exempteth from the Bishops but so subtily that vnder pretence of debarring them from hauing authoritie in those things that he ascribeth to the Princes principalitie he both reuoketh his former graunt to Princes and conueyeth all those things vnto the Bishops Neither Pastors of the Church saith he doe intermeddle their authoritie in those things saue nowe and then to admonishe them and giue theÌ„ faithfull counsell neither doe we defend all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiect to the pastors of the Church but in those causes onely which would hinder the faith and Christian saluation except they were partly forbidden as diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes which the natioÌ„s committe without punishment partly commaunded as giuing of almes the defence of neighbours and chiefly of the poore the fortifying of the Church of Christ and Christian Religion and to conclude all other things which the lawe of God commandeth and prescribeth as necessarie to saluation In these wordes Maister Saunders speaketh cleane contraries the Princes haue the moste frée principalitie in all causes that diminishe not the faith and Religion of Christe and the Bishops doe onely admonishe and giue councel and yet he ascribeth all to the Bishops both to punishe all that would hinder the faith and Christian saluation and to fortifie all that would furder it What is not here againe giuen to the Bishoppes and what is not here againe taken from the Princes yea their Kingdomes and all in some places and nothing left for Princes for what else meaneth he by this we defend not all dominions and kingdomes to be giuen by gods lawe euery where and in all things to be subiecte to the pastors of the Church As who should say some are subiect to them by the law of God where the lawe of God is flat to the contrarie that no kingdomes are subiect vnto them But as Maister Saunders contrarie to gods law maketh some kingdomes subiect in all things vnto Bishops so maketh he all kingdomes subiect vnto them in matters of diuorces vsuries and such other sinnes saith he as the nations commit without punishment Which as it is a sclaunder to Christian Princes as mainteining such sinnes which rather they punishe and Popishe Prelates both permit and commit without punishment of them so he ascribeth these punishmentes to the Popishe Prelates for nothing but for aduauntage as also the gyuing of Almes defence of neighbours and chiefely of the poore As thoughe that Princes did not or could not doe these things but the Priestes who by suche fetches gat all things into their clutches Maister SauÌ„ders hauing thus séemed at the first to yelde vnto Princes great authoritie and streight to take away all againe from them and giue it vnto themselues least Princes might worthily thinke themselues abused he mitigateth the matter with this reason Neither ought it seeme strange to anye man that kings in these matters should obey Christ for this standeth theÌ„ chiefly vpon sith otherwise they cannot get eternall life As thoughe your Pope Maister Stapleton and you hys â—…riests were christ Good reason it is they shuld obey Christ otherwise as you say most truely therein they cannot get eternall life But sith you are not Christ this reason holdeth not But you will say you be Christs and represent christ Woâ—…ld to God you were M. Saunders and not rather â—…tichristes For if you were Chrittes you woulde oâ—…ey your Prince And not haue the Prince in authoritie of gouernement obey you whom you ought to obey since a Christian Prince is Christs also and in authoritie â—…f gouernment immediatly to Christians representeth Christ. Thinke you that Princes can not get eternall life excepte they obey your Pope so you tel them in dede make manâ—…e Princes afraid therof by which meanes you haue gotteÌ„ their gouernement from theÌ„ And thus prâ—…tending the name of Christ you saye VVâ—…en therefore we say that earthly kings ought to be vnder Christes ministers we say onely this that they no otherwise can be saued neither receiued of Christian people to a kingdome or oughte to be suffred in the administration of a kingdome than iâ—… they both doe and pretermit those things that the lawe of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted If you meane the obedience to the ministers of Christ no furder than this to doe and 〈◊〉 those things that â—…he law of Christ commaundeth to be done and pretermitted theÌ„ were the controuersie at an end for this obedience was never denied But before you went furâ—…er and would hauâ—… the Prince to doe and preteâ—… those things that the lawe of the Pope and his Priests would haue done and pretermitted 〈◊〉 you repâ—…e they be 〈◊〉 of Christ their 〈◊〉 is the 〈◊〉 of Christ this would be proued M. Saunders for it is 〈◊〉 of the chiefest pointes in controuâ—…sie As for Christs lawe we graunt that excepte the Prince obey it he can not be saued But that he which in any one poynt doth any thing which Christs lawe commaundeth nâ—…t or 〈◊〉 any thing that Christs lawe commaundeth is not to be receiued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 people to a kingdome or bâ—…ing receiued ought not to be â—…tred in the administration of a kingdome is a perilouâ—… doctrine For who should thâ—… be a king or who shoulde noâ—… be turned oute of his kingdome For who offendeth not herein chiefely expounding the law of Christ as your selues â—…ed in what daunger and thraloâ—…me to you should kings become so that it were better be a begger and beg his bread than be a Christian king and rule and be ruled on this wise if these your rules were true But now to helpe the matter you will expound what ye meane by the â—…aw of Christ. But what the
as it is likely by M. sand tale he hath witte wisedome inough begin to smel a rat think with him selfe what should he meane to put this differâ—…ce I freely offered to receiue the Christian fayth and he wyll not take this offer but wyll haue me receiue that faith and that Churche that he sayth was from the Apostles and is continued by succession of Bishops till this day and is dispersed throughout all the worlde Why and is not this the christian fayth and the christian Churche If it be I offered my selfe to it before but he refaseth my offer Then surely this is not that fayth and Church that he meaneth And why should he rather haue me bounde to the Apostles if they were Christes Apostles than to Iesus Christ him selfe shal I be baptised in their names why should I binde my selfe to Bishops succestors which what they haue ben how ill or how welsome of them haue succeeded their predecessors I knowe not nor I will sweare for theÌ„ And why shoulde I then sweare vnto them rather than vnto the fayth of Christ who is the chiefe Bishop of our soules And why should I binde my selfe to â–ª Church dispersed throughout all the worlde What meaneth he by this the greatest and mightiest multitude or the lyttle flocke of Christ scattered in euery Nation or be it greate or little why should he bind me more to men than vnto Iesus Christ And why requireth he to these things as if it were euen to Christe him selfe and to the fayth of him the defence of all my force and what meaneth he by this force that I shall for all these thinges gather all my power and make sharpe warre where and when he coÌ„maundes me and that I shal oblige my selfe to al these conditions on the forfeyture of my kingdome and depose my selfe from my â—…ght become a priuate man and leaue the office charge that God hath called me vnto for leauing of these things Yea that if I should not wilfully do otherwise but if I should chaunce to do otherwise And what if he would threape vpon me that I chaunced to do otherwise Surely surely this is not playne dealing with me nor any good meaning to me He seekes not my saluation but my kingdome that thus would snarle me and is not content that I fréely offer to acknowledge the Christian fayth What if the King would cast all these coniectures master Saunders trow you he hathe not good occasion ministred yea what if the King héere vpon béeing thus refused of the Bishop examined these thinges throughly shoulde he not finde foule holes in your coate I tell you it would touche you to the quicke And perhaps it had béene better for the Bishop to haue taken the kinges frée offer and without suche conditions to haue giuen him his baptisme for else he might haue it of some other Bishops hands that had learned of Christ not to breake the broosed reede nor to quenche the smoking flaxe nor to caste off by suche indentinges this godly disposed Prince but with all humilitie and diligence to receiue instruct baptise him yea and bewray all your Popishe iuglinges And what had ye gotten then by these your proude conditions hathe not your pride and couetousnesse made you make a faire market and loose so riche a pray But nowe let vs yet admitte your presupposall further The king would be baptized The Bishop refuseth except on these conditions to admitte him The king séeth there is no remedie he receyueth these conditions What is his dutie nowe to do but with all his force to persist and defende them â–ª What is that for sooth that fayth and Church which beeing receyued from the Apostles is continued by the succession of Bishops vntill this day and dispersed throughout all the worlde Nowe sithe this is his charge and he is bounde to obserue it with all his force on forfeyture of his kingdome is it not gâ—… reason that he examine and boulte out which this fayth and Churche is Especially since he heareth that there is great coÌ„trouersie about these matters and that there are both wise learned famous men of both sides Yea sayth he if the case be not cleare that I am so strayghtly bounde in it standes me vpon to looke to this geare better and to heare bothe parties say what they can that I may know and be sure that I keepe my promise and not to forfayt my bonde What now for his better assurance shal the prince do must he not here call bothe the parties before him say to the Bishop that tooke thiâ—… promise of him â—…y Lorde you remember what promise you made me make vnto you or euer you would baptise me And nowe I heare say the â—…oyntes that you made me promise to defende with all my force and to persist therein are litigious You holde them one way and your aduerfaries another way you say your fayth and Church is that faith and Church that was receiued of the Apostles for howesoeuer the succession of Bishops haue helde it and whersoeuer it hath bene dispersed the receipte of the Apostles from Christ himselfe I perceiue is the first and principal condition that I promised to persist in and to defende withall my force The other twayne must both depende on this I chiefly minde therfore to kâ—…pe this the other as they shal agrée hereto But here your aduersaries on the other pâ—…t 〈◊〉 and offer to proue it that your faith and Church is not that faith and Church that the Apostles receiued and deliuered but iâ—… a faith and Church â—…egenerate and swarnedfromit And therefore if you will not be youre selues the cause tâ—… make me breake the promise that ye made me take ye muste cléere your selues of that â–ª your aduersaries obiect against you and confute them And you she Bishops aduersaries on the other side mustâ—… bring foorthe youre prooues and defences of youre faythe and Churche and shewe good reason why I should not impugne your fayth and churche and defende theirs agaynst you And héere for equall dealing betweene you bothe béeing parties playntife or defendaunt neither of you your selues shall be your owne or your aduersaries Iudge for the one were partialitie the other iniurie neither I whom the matter bothe for my office and for my promise and forfeyture toucheth nearest will be your Iudge but an indifferent hearer of bothe parties And bicause you bothe admitte the Scriptures to be Gods worde and both the Apostles fayth and the Apostles Church is manifestly recorded in the Scriptures and Christ also willeth vs to search the Scriptures for they beare recorde of him the matter shall be determined by the Scriptures Both of your faiâ—…hes and Churches shall be leueled by that platforme that shall be there apparantly expressed And as the Scripture shall strike the stroke betwéene you I will minister 〈◊〉 rightly to saue my promise And will deâ—…ende wâ—…th
of Christe to haue so mightie a Realme as Englande or Fraunce to become Christian by this offer why is not this offer taken for sooth the B. refuseth it Is not here a great iniurie offered to Christs Church by this B but whie doth the B. thus bycause the Prince will not promise obedience to the Prelates and to renounce his kingdome if he swarue from his obedience to them Is this a sufficient cause for want of obedience to the Prieste to defeate Chryste of his obedience Nay say you he made an exception that he vvoulde not submit his Diademe to Christ. By your leaue M. Saunders there you say not true Loke on your own presupposall once again yea on the words you made the Prince to speake whiche althoughe they were of your owne deuising for you neuer I suppose heard or read of Prince desirous to be baptized that spake on that fashion you do but tell the Princes tale to your aduantage yet finde you no such wordes in the wordes that you speake for him yea he speaketh the contrarie in offering to acknowledge the faith of Christ. But say you he would not submit his Diademe make his kingdome subiecte in the cause of faithe to the Ministers of Christ and that is all one vvyth denying to submit his Diademe to Christ. Yea Master Sanders were it admitted ye were ministers of Christ is Christ you al one the submissioÌ„ to Christ to his ministers al one Backare M. Saâ—… there is a great difference And yet Chryst requireth no submission of Diademes or subiection of kingdoms in such sort vnto him that he wold haue kings resigne them vp to him and he woulde take them no he neuer vsed that practise He might haue had such kingdomes if he had list but he refused them as your selfe before haue confessed Althoughe your Pope will haue kings resigne their kingdomes vnto him and he will take them and ruffle in greater pompe than any king vseth to doe Whiche argueth playnely that he is not Christes minister And therefore the king hardyly may refuse his vnlawfull demaunde that he woulde in the name of Christ extort as Christes officer which his master Christe both refused himselfe and forbad in his ministers And therefore the Prince dothe Chryste no iniurie bycause he will not bring his kingdome thrall to a false Prieste pretending to be Christes Minister béeing indéede the Minister of the tempter that offereth worldly kingdomes But say you hee muste make his kingdome subiecte to them in the cause of faith As though the cause of faith were hindered if the King made not his kingdome subiecte to the Priestes where as this were the reddiest way bothe to destroye the kingdome and the faith No Master Saunders the faithe of Chryste was neuer more sincere than when the Ministers of Chryst were obedient subiectes to their kings And the cause of faythe was neuer more weakened and corrupted than sithe Priestes haue wrong themselues out of their kings subiections and that the Popes haue made the Kings sweare obedience vnto them But Maister Saunders whines at this crying out vvhere is the obedience of faith that Christ sent his Apostles to procure in all the vvorlde You do well Master Saunders to aske vvhere it is for surely it is not with you nor in all your Popishe kingdome except here and there lurking and dare not shewe hir head for feare your Popishe Inquisitors woulde gette hir by the polle The obedience of fayth was frée when Priests were subiectes and since Priestes became Princes they haue taken hir captiue and exiled hir and done all that they coulde to haue killed hir But she is escaped your hands and requicouereth that libertie that the Apostles procured in all nations for hir And she doth so much the better bicause she rereth not worldly subiection of Princes but letteth Princes kéepe the estate of their kingdomes and requireth not onely obedience to hir in a more spirituall submission Whiche the more Princes yelde vnto hir they bring not their kindomes into more slauerie but into more libertie renowne and honour So that I truste shortely they will bring the Pope and his proude Prelates to their olde obedience againe Whie saye you this is to arme Princes agaynste the Church Nay Master Saunders it is rather to strengthen the Church to let Princes haue that armor that is due vnto them What say you to lette them doe vvhat they vvill and for nothing they shall doe to saye they vvill not leaue their Empire No bodie Master Saunders giueth Princes authoritie to do what they will. The authoritie that is giuen them is onely to doe good Their vvill must not be what they will but what Lawe vvill It is not with them as it is wyth your Pope Sic volo sic Iubeo stet pro ratione voluntas Thus I vvill and thus I commaunde my vvyll shall stande in steade of reason The Law is not wyth them in scrinio pectoris in the cofer of the brest as your Pope sayth it is in his I graunt there are Princes that doe thus but that is not their dutie Neither do Princes make a profession as you say that for nothing they will giue ouer their authoritie nor it is required of them nor presupposed But their duetie in their officâ—… is required and it is presupposed they will continue therein Which if they do not but breake promise shall the subiectes depose them or the Byshops depriue them by whiche rule they may quickly set vpon the Prince for any enormitie in ciuil matters too for he promised to minister iustice to al meÌ„ but he promised to none to giue vp his crowne if he did not Yea though he had made them some suche expresse promise also and brake it yet coulde no Byshop nor any other priuate person attempte to depose him for the breach thereof but commit the vengeance to god But this Prince that here is presupposed offereth inough vnto the Bishop which if he refuse not the Prince but the Byshop endamageth the Church of Christ. Nowe Master Saunders presupposing in this supposall that he hath clearely euicted the case where the Byshop by expresse wordes maketh this condition with the king he will pursue his victorie that he thinketh he hath gotten and proue that the king hath promised and is bounde euen as muche where the Byshoppe at his baptisme saithe no suche wordes vnto him But if so be saith he all men vvill confesse that no Byshop can giue baptisme vvithout great sinne to that king vvhom he seeth so proude then truely although the Byshop by negligence or forgetfulnesse shall say nothing hereof vnto the king notvvithstanding suche is the obedience that the king himselfe giueth vnto the Gospell of Christe vvhen he maketh himselfe a member of him and desireth of him to be saued that vvill hee nill hee this promise is contained in that facte that he shall minister vnto Christ and to the
life for me he can not be my Disciple much more then must he hate his kingdome and be readie to leaue his kingdome and all the good in the vvorlde for Christe or else hee is no Christian. You say true M. Sanders he must forsake and hate al for Christes sake But that he must do this for your Byshoppes sakes when they will say it is expedient he should so do that I finde not in the words of Christe and yet muste you beware howe you expounde that saying For he is bound also to loue and to kéepe to the vttermost all these thinges in their kindes not to renounce nor hate theÌ„ except they hinder him from Christ whom he must prefer before al things But this loue to Christe in principall maye stande togither with these loues wel inough Neither is he any more bounde to resigne his kingdome than to resigne his vvife into the Priestes hands Nor if he abuse his kingdome the Prieste can no more turne him out of it than he can if he abuse his goods and his vvife turne him not of his dores and take his goodes and his vvife from him and kéepe hir himself or giue hir vnto an other This can not the Byshop do although the Prince and euerie man be bounde to lose al for Christes cause Yea the Byshop is bounde hereto as well as any other And God knowes how some of them kepe this bonde and yet wil not they léese one halfpennie for Christes sake howsoeuer they breake it But the kingdome is a â—…oule moate in their eye and therefore the King poore soule must lose all and they must take it from him But now to Master Saunders other arguments Moreouer the kingdomes of faithfull Princes whose people feare God are not altogether earthly or worldlye For in that part that they haue beleued in Christ they haue as it were lefte to be of this worlde and haue begonne to be members of the eternall kingdome for although the outwarde face of things which is founde in kingdomes meere secular be in a Christian kingdome yet sith the spirite of man is farre the more excellent parte of hym and the whole spirite acknowledgeth Christ his King and onely Lorde I see nothing why Christian kingdomes ought not rather to be Iudged spirituall according to their better part than earthly And this is the cause why nowe long since those which gouerned the people of God were wont to be annoynted of his Ministers no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priestes For euen the Kings them selues also are after a sort partakers of the spirituall Ministerie when they are annoynted not that they should do those things that are committed to the onely Priestes herevnto orderly consecrated but that those things which other Kings referre to a prophane and worldly ende these Kings should now remember that they oughte to directe to an holye ende For when they themselues are made spirituall it is fitte they should will that all their things should be counted as it were spirituall But nowe are spirituall things so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Syth therefore the people of Israell woulde needes desire a King to be giuen them Samuel by the commaundement of God toke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the heade of Saule and kissed him and sayd beholde God annoynteth thee to be the Prince ouer his inheritaunce VVhich to me seemeth to signifie euen as though it had bene sayde except the Lord annoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer hys people whiche hee hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to hymselfe For in that that is gods no man can take power to him selfe without Gods permission But God anoynted Saul to be the Prince not by himselfe but by Samuel his minister wherfore whosoeuer ruleth ouer the Christian people which is no lesse acceptable to God than was the people of the Iewes hee besides the right which he receyueth of God by the consent of the people ought also to acknowledge his power to be of Christe by his Ministers if so be that he be suche an one that worshippeth the Fayth of Christe VVherevpon to thys day all Christian kingdomes are annoynted of some Christian Bishop or some other Minister of God referring therein their principalitie not onely to the people and so vnto God but that moreouer by the Priests of Christ they referre it vnto Christ whose Ministers they are For Pope Leo wrote elegantly vnto Leo the Emperour Thou oughtest to marke stedfastly the Kingly power not onely to bee giuen to thee to the gouernement of the worlde but to be giuen thee chiefly for the succour of the Churche that in suppressing naughtie attemptes thou shouldest bothe defende those things that are well decreed and restore the true peace to those things that are troubled If Maister Saunders woulde goe plainely to woorke and make his argumentes shorte and formall and woulde rather shewe his Logike than his Rethorike the truth or falsehoode woulde appéere the sooner the reader perhappes mighte be the lesse delyghted but withoute perhappes hee shoulde be lesse beguyled and the aunswere mighte bée the clearer and the shorter â—…ll this long argument in effect is this All spirituall things are so vnder the Church of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body All Christian Kings and kingdomes are spirituall things Ergo all Christian Kings and Kingdomes are so vnder the Church of Christ that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the prosite of the whole mysticall body And firste Maister Saunders trauels in the Minor. To proue Christian Kyngs and Kyngdomes spirituall that bycause the better parte of them is spirituall therefore hée seeth nothyng why they oughte not to bee rather iudged spirituall Yea Kings were woâ—…e to bee annoynted no otherwyse than Prophetes and Priestes not to doe theyr actions but to referre all theyr affayres to holy and spirituall dedes And can you sée this Maister Sanders Now how chance you coulde not seeit before when you made the Christian Princes ciuill power to be no better than the Turkes or Tartars to stretch no furder thaÌ„ to the body a quiet lyfe haue you now espied not onely the endes wherevnto they rule but the estate also itselfe by reason of the better parte to be spirituall what hath made you see so cléerely nowe forsooth now is now and then was then You were pleading then that the Christian Princes ciuill estate was so farre different and vnlike that Princes might not meddle in spirituall matters and therfore then was fitte oportunitie to denie that Christian Princes Ciuill power had any spirituall thing in it But nowe we are in another argument that Priestes maye order and dispose
Kingdomes and depose Kings as they shall thinke expedient and to proue this â–ª we must saye they be in the Churches power and to proue that wee must saye they are spirituall â–ª and so spirituall men may deale with spirituall thyngs And for this reason we can sée no cause nowe but that Christian Kingdomes are spirituall that we spirituall men which are the Church might haue the disposing of them Well then I see also Maister Saunders that for aduantage you can and you can not see And play seest me and seest me not But who seeth not that hath any indifferent eyes that this is but legerdemain and that you speake flat contraries in one thing although you turne your tale to other purposes But let go that you saw not before let vs loke what you see in Princes now Nowe you see that they are spirituall And why so not bicause they doe the spirituall actions of the Priests but bicause of their better part that is of the spirite of God and bicause of the end wherto they driue al their things to become as it were spirituall Why then M. Saunders your eyes mighte serue you if your hart could serue you to see this withall that although the Prince can not do the spirituall actions of spirituall persons yet this hindreth not that he may notwithstanding be a gouernor ouer ecclesiasticall persons in causes ecclesiasticall and maye ouersee them both And if you can see the one and not the other surely your sight is partiall But newe M. Saunders loking another way will haue Princes no furder spirituall than in that they are vnder the Church And here making the Maior the Minor the former the later by a figure called Hysteron proteron the carte before the horse he will proue that all spirituall things are so much vnder the Churche of Christ that the Church may freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body and so Kings and Kingdomes as is sayde before beyng spirituall things are so muche vnder the Churche of Christ that she may freely to the profit of the whole mysticall body dispose and decree of Kings and kingdomes But first Maister SauÌ„ders we denie your Maior For although in certaine things it be true to wit in such things as are left to the disposition of the Church that is to order and dispose such things as of their nature are indifferent to the profite of the whole mysticall body or any part thereof for these things are called spirituall things not properly in their owne nature but as in spirituall causes the spirituall persons vse them and yet all this is not so freely lefte to the Churches disposition that some principall persons in the Church as the Prince or the Pastors haue not the chiefest stroke in the disposition of them For if they were so free that euery member in the Churche shoulde haue his nay or yea in disposing of theÌ„ when would they be disposed And if at length they were it would peraduenture fall out in the end so little to the profite of the whole mysticall body that it woulde be rather the hinderaunce and disquieting of it But besides these spiritual thinges there are a great many other of whiche some in déede are méere spirituall as the worde of God the Sacramentes of Christ the Articles of fayth the Commaundementes of life and all suche thinges as God hathe either expressed in his worde or is necessarily conteyued in it These thinges béeing spiritual are not so vnder the churche of Christ that the churche may freely dispose and decree of them But they statly dispose and decree of the churche and the churche can not alter nor swarue one iote from them Whiche if she shoulde she shoulde not profite hir selfe for she is the whole mysticall body but destroy hir selfe and dissolue the whole body and euery part therof And such as these things are is the estate of a King and kingdome whiche althoughe it be not so méere a spirituall thing but so farre foorthe spirituall as your selfe confesse yet bicause it is the ordinaunce of God and God hath in his worde set foorthe the office of a King and declareth that the setting vp and pulling downe of Kinges and the alterations of kingdomes belongeth to him selfe and neuer gaue that authoritie to his Churche muche lesse to his Ministers to set vp and depose Kinges and alter kingdomes Kinges therefore and their kingdomes no more than other spirituall thinges are not so vnder the churche of Christe that she maye freely dispose and decree of them to the profite of the whole mysticall body Neither hathe the whole mysticall body any more thraldome or lesse fredome that Kings and kingdomes are not so vnder hir or that she maye not freely dispose and decree of them as she shall thinke moste profitable to the whole mysticall body than she hathe more thraldome or lesse freedome bicause she can not alter nor dispose the other spirituall things Yea in this case the Churche léeseth lesse libertie than in the other for the freedome of the Churche â–ª béeing a mysticall body is cleane another matter pertayning to the conscience and is a mysticall freedome from the tyrannie of Sathan from the cursse of the lawe from the bondage of sinne from ceremonies and humayne constitutions and not from obedience to kinges and to haue superioritie ouer them and libertie to depose them and to translate their kingdomes Whiche freedome and superioritie is not spirituall but carnall and worldly And if the Churche had it she woulde not onely bring kinges and kingdomes but euen hir selfe in bondage and therefore Christe hathe barred it Whiche freedome bicause the Popishe Churche aspireth vnto and claymeth and holdeth ouer â–ª kinges and kingdomes she is not the true Church of Christ that they boast of but rather a Iewishe Synagoge dreaming vpon an earthly Messias or rather a Persian or Turkishe Temple that measureth the freedome and dignitie of Gods Church by the pompe and mighte of the worlde to depose kings and dispose of their kingdomes at their pleasures But to proue that kings and kingdomes pertayne not to the free disposition of the Church but of God I will desire no better prooues nor example than euen M. Saunders heere brings foorthe Sithe therefore sayth he the â–ª people of Israell would needes desire a king to be giuen theÌ„ Samuel by the commaundement of God tooke a cruse of oyle and powred it vpon the head of Saule and kissed him â–ª and sayde beholde God anoyâ—…teth thee to be the Prince ouer his Inheritaunce which to me seemeth to signifie as though it had bene sayde except the Lorde anoynted thee to be the Prince thou couldest not rightly and orderly be the Prince ouer his people whiche he hathe chosen and reserued out of all the worlde to be as it were peculiar to him selfe For in that that is Gods no man can take power
to him selfe without Gods permission If this be true that héere you say M. Saunders as it is moste true if Samuels words do so sounde in your eares as though he had sayde Saule coulde not be king ouer Gods people except the Lorde anoynted him If the Lorde reserue this prerogatiue to him selfe to appoynt Princes and giue kingdomes where he onely pleaseth howe then is this true that kings and kingdomes are so vnder the Churche that she may freely dispose decree of theÌ„ as she pleaseth Although the Church be the Lordes spouse and wyfe yet is she not hir selfe the Lorde nor the Lorde is ruled by hir but she by the Lorde neither hathe he giuen hir this prerogatiue but as you héere confesse it is a thing belonging onely to him And therefore by your owne confession Kinges and kingdomes are not so vnder the Church that she may dispose and decree as she thinketh good of them And as your owne witnesse thus beateth your selfe in your owne example So to consider this example further Saule was appoynted King of God and thoughe at the firste he was a good King yet afterwarde he became bothe a tyrant in lyfe and an Apostata in doctrine by which occasion he was a great offence to the Churche of god What nowe did the Churche of God saye she had suche freedome ouer him and his kingdome that she might freely dispose and decree thereof as should be profitable for the whole â–ª mysticall body Surely to the Churches iudgement it appeared more profitable if this ill Kyng hadde béene deposed and some other godly man placed in hys steede muche more if Dauid hadde beene placed â–ª whom GOD likewyse had anoynted to be their king Dyd the Churche this No coulde they haue done this No they had no suche fréedome but they let Saule alone and committed the case to God who at his good oportunitie as he onely sent the king so he only tooke him away and sent them another For onely God transposeth kingdomes and not the Churche as he him selfe testifieth who is the best Iudge we can appeale vnto saying Per me Reges regnant Kinges rule by me and not by my Churche And so confesseth Daniel He chaungeth times and ages he translateth kingdomes and establisheth them His Church therefore hathe not the free disposition of them But sayth master Saunders God anoynted Saule to be the Prince not by him selfe but by his Minister wherefore whosoeuer ruleth ouer the Christian people whiche is no lesse acceptable to God than was the people of the Iewes he besides the right that he receyued by the consent of the people ought also to acknowledge his power to be of Christe by his Ministers if so be that he be suche an one as worshippeth the fayth of Christe VVherevpon to this day all christian Kinges are anoynted of some christian Bishop or some other minister of God referring therein their principalitie not onely to the people and so vnto God But referre it besides by the Ministers of Christe to Christe whose Ministers they are Your argument is this The King is anoynted of God. But this is done by the ministerie of Gods Prophetes or Ministers Ergo Not onelie God but his Ministers haue the free disposing and decreeing of Kings and kingdomes Your conclusion is not in so playne English but colourably you fetche the matter about the bushe saying therefore they muste referre their principalitie not onely to the people and so to God but referre it besides by the ministers of Christ to Christ whose ministers they are What néede this nice daliaunce and circumquaques M. Saunders that almoste men can scarse tell what you meane but that you meane some fal shode If you meane they shoulde referre it to the Ministers of Christ that is an vntruth If you meane they must refeâ—…e it so to Christe by his Ministers that it takes the authoritie of the Ministers that is another vntruthe If you meane it muste be referred to Christe that worketh it by the ministerie of his Ministers howbeit there is no suche necessitie neither in the making of Kinges althoughe it be orderly and ordinarily done by their ministerie yet what serueth this to the purpose Speake playnely man and say the king is made king by the Bishops Ergo the Bishops may dispose and decree of him and his kingdome and may depose him and giue the kingdome to another as they shall thinke good â–ª For this is your playne drifte But we denie your argument for by the like you mighte make euery mans baptisme and sayth to hang of the free disposition decreeing and alteration of the Minister sithe these things are receyued by the Minister but the force of them dependes not on the minister And much lesse that bicause suche a Bishop crowned the King therefore he may rule the King and haue free disposition to decree what the King shall doe and whether he shall continue King or no. No M. Saund. and if he had the authoritie to make the King yet the King beeing made it followeth not that he may marre him too But the moste that you can make of the Minister in the Kings Coronation â–ª is but Causa sine qua non that he can not well be made without him and yet in very déede it is not so muche and therefore this is but a slender argument But sée how you runne héere craftily from the Church to the Bishop your argument was of the Church and your conclusion is of the Bishop Wherby you meane that your Prelates only are of the church â–ª Which as it is most false so is it rather to be examined whether you be any ministers or parts of the churche at al if you speake of the churche of Christ. For as was shewed before neither the church â–ª nor the spirituall Ministers of Christ â–ª did euer take vpon them this deposing of kings and disposing of kingdomes that you chalenge Samuel whome you cite had béene a gouernour by an extraordinary calling béeing the laste Iudge before the Kings but after he had â–ª anoynted and declared Saule to be king he neuer tooke vpon him the publike gouernment of the kingdome And though God sent him to tell Saule how God would cast him off and though also God had him anoynt another yet would he not medâ—…e in the gouernmeÌ„t nor depose Saule nor incite Dauid or the people to depose him althoughe God had caste him cleane off but onely mourned for him If you can shewe any example of the contrarie I am sure we shall heare it but as yet we heare of none You tell vs of an elegante sentence of Pope Leo to the Emperour Leo. But as there is no greate elegancie in it so it maketh nothing to this purpose and the purpose that it maketh for is rather for the Princes gouernment in ecclesiasticall causes than agaynst it Howbeit to alleage a Pope for the vsurpation of the Pope is
that the Kyng should be obedient to the disposition of the humaine minister of Christ which is the question nowe in hande And yet whether it signifie this mysterie that you say it onely doth or no may be called into question For if it hath such a significatiō it is a very darke mysterie And me thinks it might more easilye signifie other things For oyle sometimes signifieth mercie sometimes plentie sometimes remedie against poyson sometimes it is referred to the Priesthoode sometimes to the kingdome of Christ somtimes to the mysticall members of Christ as they are Kings Priests with him so that the anoynting with oyle which espetially was vsed to Priests and Kings who therefore are called the sons of oyle is applyed to sundry significations and not onely to the incarnation and humaine nature of Christe And yet is there no suche necessitie of anoynting Christian Kings as was of the Iewishe Kings For they had commaundement so to doe and it was a ceremoniall figure of diuerse things in christ Which commaundement and ceremonies Christian Princes are not bound vnto It is cropen vp of a custome I cānot tel how to imitate the Iewes herein But as for the nature of a Kings estate he is neuer a whit the lesse King if he wante the anoynting with oyle and as the Papistes superstitiouslie doe vse it it were muche better away But the Papistes make a great matter of anoynting Kings with oyle yea sayth Maister Saunders they were wont to be annoynted no otherwise than were the Prophetes and Priestes as thoughe they shoulde be so anoynted still And true it is in one sense that they shoulde no other wise be so annoynted still that is to say neyther of them shoulde be anoynted No say you should not the Priestes be annoynted ▪ We are In deede you be Maister Saunders and all your order But the Apostles and Disciples of Christe were not and therefore your order is differing from theirs and all godly ministers should differ from yours be ye shorne or be ye anoynted But if it be true that you say kings should be no otherwise anoynted than you howe chaunce then ye are anoynted otherwise than kings as your glosse doth reason that vpon the King is powred oile but vpon the Bishop is powred Chrisme Kings are anoynted on the righte shoulder but Byshops and Priestes are annoynted vpon their heads but the heade is better than the shoulder and Chrisme is better than oyle Ergo Bishops and Priests are superior vnto Kings Were not they which anoynted their pamphlets with such greasie argumentes to perch vp their balde crownes aboue the imperiall crownes of their natural Soueraignes worthy by the Princes commaundemente to be well anoynted with vnguentum baculinum to make them acknowledge their due subiection if they rather deserue not sharper instice but let vs procéede vnto M. Saunders other arguments Let vs put the case that Christ himselfe is at this day conuersant in the earth as he was conuersant in times paste Can any man doubt but in that he is man al Christian kings ought to be vnder his gouernment both in all eccl. and in those secular causes that may promote the cause of the Chruche for he shall raigne in the house of Iacob for euer and there shal be no ende of his kingdomes If therefore earthly Kings are parte of the house of Iacob Christ shall raigne ouer them and shall subdue their Kingdomes to hys spirituall Kingdome But whatsoeuer power was necessarye vnto Christe to eternall saluation he transformed the externall and and visible ministerie thereof vnto the Apostles when he said as my father hath sent me so I send you The Apostles therefore and their successors doe no lesse rule in spiritual causes ouer Christian Kings so far as the visible Ministerie than Christ himselfe is in truth ouer them so farre as the holy power of his humaine nature VVherevpon sayth Epiphanius Christ hath giuen a kingdome to those that are placed vnder him that it should not be sayde he proceedeth from little things to greater The throne of Christ abideth and of his kingdome there is no ende and he sitteth vpon the throne of Dauid so that he hath translated the kingdome of Dauid together with the Bishoprike and hath giuen it vnto his seruaunts that is to the Bishops of the Catholike Church Beholde so well the priestly as the Kingly power is communicated to the pastors of the Churche of Christe that by that meanes Christ shoulde be declared to raigne for euer yea euen as a spirituall and heauenly man And this truelye dothe that annoynting testifie that the Kings receyue of Priests The argument is thus If Christ himselfe were conuersant in earth in his humaine nature as he hath bene he shoulde haue ouer all Christian kings all eccl. and secular power in those things that might promote the Church But Christ hath giuen to his ministers in the visible ministerie all the power necessarie to saluation ouer Christian kings that belongeth to himselfe in his humaine nature Ergo he hath giuen his Ministers in the visible ministerie all ecclesiasticall and secular power in those things that maye promote the Church First this argument standeth vpon another presupposal which as it is no lesse false than the other so is it more impossible being flat contrarie to the worte of God and to the will of christ He puttes a case that Christ woulde come againe and in his humaine nature be conuersant vpon the earth as he was from his natiuitie till his death Good Lord M. Saūders is your cause so bad and false that you are still driuen to these shiftes to put the cases of false and forged presupposals if your cause were good it woulde stand of it selfe you might go plainely to worke and neuer reason vpon suche deuised cases as you knowe and beleue shall neuer be true except you be a Millenarie indéede as you gaue before a shrewde suspition of that heresie to think Christ shall come againe and here for a thousand yeares in all worldly might and glorie raigne in the earth and then go dwell in heauen But perhaps you wil say what wil you let me to put what case I lyft when the sky falles they say we shal haue Larkes True M. Saunders we can not let you to put what case you lyst be it neuer so absurde and repugnant to the truth But is this the rediest way to boult out the truth to put the case of an euident vntruth and to imagine that to come that neuer shall be to inferre that vsurpation of your Priestes that is and ought not to be But sée howe sone your argument is ouerturned For if your case be not admitted then is all your labour loste and you haue wonne nothing for your Priestes But the Scripture is manifest that this shall neuer come to passe And that the heauens containe Christ til the day of Iudgement he is neither here
Pastors are placed in the Churche to this purpose that they shoulde vvatche for our soules teach baptise dispence the mysteries of Christe giue open sinners vnto Sathan and in the person of Christe to forgiue them that are sorie for their sinnes according to the Lorde To conclude that they by their keys should bring so vvel earthly kings as other meÌ„ into the kingdome of heauen Sithe therefore as Christe the Lorde of all worthily gouerneth so wel the spiritual as the earthly power and sith the spirituall power floweth not from Christe but as he is redeemer of mankinde and that power is properly ordeined and prouided for the getting of eternall life neither by any meanes can it be saide or thought of a vviseman that Christe vvoulde haue the earthly povver aboue the spirituall in his Church vvhich is all led by the spirite and ought to be lifted aboue all earthly things Truely it is necessarie that in the Churche of Christe vvhiche is one the onely spirituall povver shoulde rule and that the povver of the father the husbande the Lorde yea and of the King himselfe shoulde be altogither vnder the povver of the Pastors appointed of Christ vvhen the matters of the life to come are handled Except Master Saunders of vaine glorie did either delight to much to heare himself or of subtletie went about to tyre and wrappe his Readers he woulde neuer vse so many wordes to so litle purpose Muche of this is nothing but that he hath spoken before and is here in vaine repeated much of it is cleane besides the matter The summe is this that all estates as touching spirituall matters are altogyther vnder the spirituall Pastors The effecte of all this long drift standeth on these two reasons the one of the difference of the two powers to proue the spiritual to be the better the other of the vnion of bothe powers to proue the Priestes alone to rule them both What he hath tolde vs heretofore of the difference concerning the original the vse and the end of bothe we haue hearde alreadie and it is néedelesse to repeat And likewise that all ciuill and kingly povver is as well out of the Church of God as in the Church of God the spirituall power only in the Church is alredy answered vnto And in al these actioÌ„s that he reckoneth vp the King is likewise graunted the inferior Howbeit here is nothing that the King is inferior in things belonging to his kingdome But what is al this to the present purpose that the Priest may depole the King he reasoneth of the â—…mon of these powers that they are all one in Christ that Christ hath both in him and ruleth both so well the secular as the spirituall â–ª and this is likewise answered last vnto Put that here vpon the power of all estates is altogether vnder the pastors power that is not hetherto proued And yet we denie not but that the power of all these estates Father Husband Lorde and King is vnder the pastors power but not altogether vnder it And so we say that all these powers yea the pastors and all are vnder the Kings power but not altogether vnder it All estates are vnder the pastors power bycause hée teacheth all estates of men how to liue in their vocations All estates are vnder the Kings power bycause he ouerséeth in al estates the maintenance of the same So that as Master Saunders rightly saith there is no difference and there is a difference and there is a mixture of these powers There is no difference in respect that all are partakers of the vnitie in Christ in regarde wherof neither Priest nor Prince are better the one than the other or the people worse than both sith all are one in christ There is a difference in respecte of the order and gouernment of the Church which is so distinguished in difference of degrées and callings that as the wife maye not take vpon hir the husbandes office nor the sonne the fathers nor the seruant the maisters so neither the past or maye take vpon him the office of the King nor the King the office of the pastour And there is a mixture in respect that the pastor directeth by teaching of all estates and spareth not the Prince and that the Prince directeth by gouerning of all estates and spareth not the pastor But this mixte power of entermedling confoundeth not the one power with the other neither maye the Prince vsurpe the authoritie due to the pastor nor the pastor vsurpe the authoritie due to the Prince As the one therefore is not confounded and yet medled with the other so the one hath both inferiorship and superioritie ouer the other and yet is neither altogether inferior or altogether superior to the other as here M. Saunders on the vnion and mixture difference no difference of these two powers concludes to exalt the pastor to such an absolute superioritie ouer the Princes that at their liking misliking they mighto depose theÌ„ But now M. sand to confirme this that the pastor is altogether in spirituall matters aboue the Prince procéedeth saying For as the fleshely man perceiueth not the things that are of the spirit of God so neither the fleshly power gouerneth those things that are of the spirite of god For althoughe Kings gouerne the members of Christe yet notwithstanding they gouerne them not in respect that they are the ineÌ„bers of Christ but in that they are yet occupied in secular businesse For the members of Christ may want a King as in times past almost for three thousand yeares eueÌ„ froÌ„ the beginning of the world vntill the kingdome of Saul they wanted an earthly king But yet the members of Christ neuer wanted some pastor bicause faith is by hearing hearing by the word of god But those that preached the word of Christ they were the pastors of the flocke The argument is this That which hath no perceuerance of things that are of the spirit of God ought to haue no superioritie in things that are of the spirit of God. But the Princes power hath no perceuerance of things that are of the spirit of God How proue you this M. Saunders The fleshly power hath no perceuerance But the Princes power is but a fleshly power Proue this better M. Saunders Such as the man is such is the power But the Prince is but a fleshly man Proue this tâ—… M. Saunders He which hath only respect to secular busines is but a fleshly man But kings haue onely respect to secular businesse Proue me this also M. Saunders Although Kings gouerne the members of Christ yet they gouerne them not in respect that they are members of Christ Ergo they gouerne them onely in secular businesse Proue this too M. Saunders If Kings gouerne theÌ„ as meÌ„bers of Christ then would they neuer haue wanted the gouernement of kings but almost for 3000. yeares they waÌ„ted
timebo quid mihi faciat homâ—… I put my confidence in the Lorde I will not feare what man can doe vnto me Another called beati qui persecutionem patiuntur propter iustitiam Blessed are they that suffer persecution for righteousnesse And a number of such excellent medicineâ—… there are And in déede there is such a medicine too as you sâ—…y vt auferatur de medio populi that he should be taken from among the people But there is but one Phisition that knoweth the right confection of the strong purgation and that is God himselfe Ministers of diuerse sortes he hath by whom he giueth this medicine but I neuer read that any godly Bishop or Prieste or faithfull subiecte did euer minister it to his Soueraigne The texte that you cite hereto is not as you cite it auferat regem adeo maluÌ„ de medio populi that may take away so euil a king from among the people but auferte malum ex vobis ipsis take awaye the euill from among you not the Prince from among the people For that were to take away one euill with another And how should this euill be taken awaâ—… Ne commisceamiâ—…i fomicarijs c. be you not mingled together or kepe no familiaritie with fornicators He saith not depriue him of hys life or liuing but be not defiled with his wickednesse And the greatest censure that s. Paule speaketh of is excoÌ„munication pertaining properly not to the goods and bodies but to the soules of men Neither speaketh he there at all of Princes but of priuate men and equals in the Church of Christ whoÌ„â—…e calleth brethren For the Kings and Princes at that time were 〈◊〉 Christened And he speaketh of such as they might lawâ—…y sâ—…un their companie such as Lyra calleth Ribaldes or verlets drunkards whorehunters Idolaters but not such as in the Ciuill polycie they muste néedes obey nor those that were out of the Church of Christ. I haue written to you saith he by an epistle that you should not intermingle your selues with fornicators not vtterly from fornicators of this world or couetous persons or rauenous or worshippers of Images else should ye go out of this world But nowe I haue written to you that ye intermingle not your selues If any which is called a brother be a whoremaister or couetous person or a worshipper of Images or a sclaunderer or a drunkerd or a rauener with suche an one we shoulde not eate meate For what haue I to do to iudge them that are without do not you iudge of them that are within as for those that are without God iudgeth Take away the euill from among you Nowe saith M. Saunders that S. Paule speaketh of taking away so euill a King from among the people and this he setteth downe in distinct letters as though S. Paule had ment the Priests should depose an euill King from gouerning the people Where he speaketh not to the Priestes but to the people and would haue them shunne the company of suche false brethren as were among them But M. Saunders will say doth not this stretch to a king so well as to any other if he be a brother in the faith of Christ I graunt it doth in that he is a brother And if he be infected with such vices hée also is so farre forth to be shunned But not to be shunned in that he is a Prince and gouernor of the people muche lesse the people to forsake their obedience to his authoritie bycause they must forsake their obedience to his vices He maye be so shunned priuately as the publique gouernement be not shunned he may be iudged of the faithfull in their courte of conscience concerning his crime but he maye not be iudged in their Courte of Consistorie concerning his worldly power he maye be taken héede of but not taken awaye he maye be euen excommunicated also by the ministers but not by them deposed bicause howsoeuer he deserueth it yet haue they no authoritie that stretcheth so farre That remedie belongeth not to them but vnto God. But now sir what and if the Prince be not onely no such malefactor but goeth about to resorme these malefactours where as other priuate men can but shunne their companie and the ministers of Christ can but excommunicate them which though it be neuer so great a censure yet they estéeme it not and that the Prince will punishe suche malefactors in their goods and bodies yea and take them awaye from among the people by death banishmente prisonment or otherwise as his office requireth he should do to whom the sworde is giuen against the malefactor what now if it fall oute that the Popishe Priestes be the greatest malefactors in these notorious crimes what if they be not only priuate whore maisters but also publike maynteiners of bankes and stewes for whores and dispisers and restrainers of honorable matrimonie what if the Popish Priests be so couetous and rauenous that they haue gotten almoste the wealth of all Christian kingdomes into their fingrings and are neuer satisfied with deuising naughtie meanes to picke mens money out of their purses what if the Popishe Priests be worshippers of Images and causers of them to be worshipped what if manye of them be common drunkardes and all of them drunken with spirituall drunkennesse which is a great deale worse what if the Popishe Priestes be sclaunderers of those that be in authoritie and woulde take the Kings sworde and Scepter oute of his hande and pull his Diademe off his heade and plucke his roabe from his backe and turne hym quite oute of hys throne and Kingdome and byd hym goe shake hys eares and styrre all hys subiectes to rebellion what if all these and an infinite sorte of other horrible crymes were founde in the Popishe priests themselues oughte not this rule of Sainte Paule to take place on them and all Christians to abhorre and shunne them and all Princes to depose and punishe them Nowe whether the Popishe Priestes be culpable in these crimes or no I thinke the crie of Sodome and Gomorre did not more astende vp to heauen than the crie of the Popishe Priests abhomination resoundeth in all the earth And thus this sentence that Maister Saunders thought to wrest against Princes if it be well examined falleth more out against the Priests themselues As for the other two sentences Iohn 21. Math. 16. are no lesse wrested herevnto VVe must beleue sayth he that this power to take away the Prince and giue his Kingdome to a better â–ª is grauÌ„ted at the least to the chief pastor of the Church in these wordes feede my sheepe and whatsoeuer thou bindest in earth shall be bound in heauen also In so muche that the chiefe pastor maye not onely excommunicate a wicked King but also set free his subiectes from all obedience of him And finde you this in these two sentences Maister Saunders we must beleeue it say you that this
in these wordes following vnto Pilate after he had denied his kingdome to be of this world when Pilate replyed Arte thou then a King he answered thou saist that I am a king Ne tamen c. vvhiche notvvithstanding saithe Ferus least Pilate should be more offended vvith the name of a King Christe proceedeth to declare his kingdome more plainely as thoughe he shoulde say Pilate vnderstande thou this for troth and cast out of thy mynde all suspition of a vvorldly kingdome or of tyrannie This is the case I vvill not at al denie my spiritual kingdome vvhether it be before thee or before Caesar. Onely knovve thou this thing that it is not my purpose to inuade any man vvith Armes or after the manner of other Kings to raigne pompously but to erecte and establishe in earth the Diuine truth To this purpose vvas I born â–ª and to this purpose came I into the vvorlde that I might beare vvitnesse to the truth Therfore I say came I therfore was I borne not to fight with the svvorde but that I might teach and declare the truth and the Gospell vvhiche is the povver of God to saluation to all that beleeue And as I declare the Gospell so I rule by the Gospell in the heartes of the beleeuers ouer sinne death and the Deuill and for sinne vvill I giue righteousnesse for death life for the Crosse ioye for hell I vvill giue heauen these are feofments of my kingdome Of these things none can be pertaker excepte he heare my voyce and beleeue in his heart I enrich not mine vvith ryches vvith cities and other feofmeÌ„ts but by my vvords I communicate vnto them ioye life peace and to conclude heauen it selfe The Gospell therefore is the Scepter of my kingdome But what are these things against the Emperor of Rome Thus againe we sée that Christe is not such a King nor his kingdome suche as you dreame of Whiche in the ende your selfe contrarie to your selfe confesse that his kingdome is not suche an one that he euer mingled himselfe in earthly things Then Master Saunders those thinges belonged not to his Kingly office nor to his kingdome For in suche things euery King ought not onely to mingle but chiefly to occupie himselfe But strait you haue an exception at hand that he mingled not himself in earthly things except whereas they might be profitable to a spirituall ende and this your selfe before confessed was the finall ende of all the ciuill power and that all faythfull Kings ought to directe all those thinges in their kingdomes vnto spirituall endes bicause they themselues are spirituall And so what letteth but that Christe should haue raigned as a worldly King and gouerned an earthly kingdome But say you This kingdome of Christ therfore both came from heauen tendeth vnto heauen For both al povver is giueÌ„ vnto â–ª him as he vvas man and died and rose againe that he shoulde rule ouer the lyuing and the deade and that he should be set ouer the vvorkes of the handes of God and that all things should be cast vnder his feete sheepe and Oxen and moreouer the beastes of the fielde And also Saint Cyrill saith that euen the wicked in the laste daye shall arise to their punishement for Christe vvho rose firste and contained as man al men in him self Sith therefore earthly Kings administer those things that pertain to sheepe and Oxen and beasts of the fielde although they remaine Eâ—…hnikes and Infidels yet are they truely vnder Christe the King as the most vvorthy man â–ª that hath receiued the principalitie ouer all thinges of this vvorlde not from the earth but from heauen and for the same shall giue an accouÌ„t to him of their common vveale euil ordered bycause they referred not their kingdomes to a spirituall ende that is to the glorie of one god But Christ so far as appertineth to his humaine â—…atuÌ„re being lesse than Angels seemeth to me to haue receiued that kingdome that Adam first should haue administred among all creatures to the glorie of one God if he had not falne from grace and to haue renued it in himselfe and to haue directed it to a spiritual end that vvhen all things should be subiect to the Sonne of man then should the Sonne also be subiecte vnto him that hath subdued all thinges to him that God might be all in all Sith therefore Christ by his humaine nature is the King of all he truely directeth al things to a spiritual end that is to the glorie of God for God deserueâ—…h glorie yea euen in those that are damned bothe for his povver and for his iustice The effecte hereof is this that God hath giuen to the humain nature of Christ as to the principal of al his creatures al povver iudgement to direct them to a spiritual end that is to his glorie But what is this to the purpose that Christes kingdome is after the fashion of a vvorldly kingdome he gouerneth all creatures we graunt with his power and prouidence yea the sheepe Oxen and cattail that he speaketh on But dothe the kingdome of Christe consiste in these things Numquid Deo cura de bobus hath God saith Sainte Paule care of Oxen in the coÌ„sideration of his heauenly kingdome He telleth vs howe all Kings shall answere for the â—…busing of their kingdomes vnto Christ at the day of dome bycause they referre them not to a spirituall ende But he telleth not howe muche more the Pope shall aunswere for â—…surping kingdomes and abusing the spirituall kingdome of Christe to vvorldly endes But shall this iudgemente of Christ be in a vvorldly coÌ„sistorie He telleth vs how he thinketh that Christe receiued that kingdome that Adam should haue had had he not falne But thinketh he that Christe should haue ruled in an earthly Paradise or that Christ came to restore vs to no better kingdome than Adam was in before he sinned He telleth vs Al things shal be made subiect to Christe and Christe to God and God shall be all in all But thinketh he this kingdome shall be in this worlde and militant Church while the euimies striue and are not yet al subdued he telleth vs the glorie and iustice of Christ shineth in the condemnation of them that are damned But dothe he thinke this is a vvorldly glorie and humaine iustice it is true that the glorie and iustice of Christe shal shine ouer theÌ„ And so shal it in the righteouse condemnation of the Popish Church that séeketh such a vvorldly kingdome and calleth it the spiritual kingdome of Christe to cloake their pryde withall But what can Master Saunders conclude hereon for Byshops to possesse kingdoms to rule Kings to sette vp or to depose them Neither say I these thinges saithe he to shevve herevpon that povver is ouer the vniuersal vvorld giuen to the Bishops of the Chnrch as though they in all things are the Ministers and Vicars
of Christe in that he is man for they haue not receiued the vvhole povver of Christe to administer it but that part that properly belongeth to beleeuers For it vvas sayde vnto the first Pastor feede not all men but my sheepe and to thee I giue the keyes not of all the vvorlde but of the kingdome of heauen Sithe therefore Christe hath receiued a certaine celestiall kingdome vvhich kingdome vseth also earthly things vnto the glorie of God and sith out of the things of the vvorld he hath chosen a certaine societie of men vvhiche in a certain especial sort vvorshippeth God in faith and loue in this onely seconde kynde of things Christe hath ordeined Pastors to be his Vicars You say that ye say not these things to shevve that herevpon povver is giuen to Byshops ouer al the vniuersal world But what soeuer you say your Pope saith contrarie applying this saying of Christe to himselfe and his successors all povver is giuen to me in heauen and in earth You say that Byshops haue onely that povver that properly belongeth to the beleeuers bycause Christe sayde vnto the firste Pastor feede not all men but my sheepe That Peter was the firste Pastor is another question Master Saunders But that the the Apostles had not in charge to go and preach to those that were not beleeuers yea to all men so farre as they could besides the feeding of them that were beleeuers and so were become alreadie the shéepe of the folde of Christe is a manifest vntruth For the Apostles had this generall charge goe ye into all the vvorlde and preach the Gospell to euery creature So that they fedde besides the faithfull the Infidels dispersed through out the whole world for those Christe also calleth his bycause they shoulde be his shéepe alias oues babeo c. I haue also other sheepe that are not of this folde those must I bring also c. But whereto run you to this so euident falshood forsooth to proue that the Byshops haue ful power ouer al the beleeuers in a their earthly possessions so might haue power to depose Kings to occupie their king doms sease vpoÌ„ al mens goods that are Christians bycause they are their Pastors And to this purpose is it that you say Christe hath receiued a certaine celestiall kingdome vvhiche vseth also all earthly things vnto the glorie of God. Whiche saying in this sense may well be graunted the kingdome of Christe vseth all earthly thinges that it vseth to the glorie of God but this woulde be proued that the Kingdome of Christe vseth by the administration of the spirituall ministers thereof a vvorldly or earthly kingdome which vse is so far from the glorie of God that it is contrarie to his celestial kingdome Whiche consisteth as you say in feeding the sheepe of Christe in the keyes of Gods worde and in that especiall sort of vvorshipping God in faith and loue and not in deposing kings or gouerning of earthly kingdomes wherin they can not be as you terme them Vicars or deputies of Christ sith Christ the King neither tooke himselfe such vse of power vpoÌ„ him flatly forbad the same vnto his Ministers Therefore the vvhole kingdome of Christe came from heauen that is from the dignitie vvhich is giuen vnto his humaine nature for the vnion of the Diuine nature Neither by any meanes the kingdome of him drue his originall from the lavve of nations or the ciuile For hee refused to be created King or to deuide the inheritance betwene the brethren saying vvho hath made me a Iudge or deuider ouer you As though he shoulde say neither the common vveale neither the Emperor hath made me a Iudge yet notwithstanding these brethren thought of such a Iudge But in that part that Christe vvas appointed of God to be Iudge by his incarnation concerning that he saide vnto those brethren bevvare of all couetousnesse For he savv that they draue not their inheritance to a spirituall ende that they might beare the heauenly iudgement of Christe This is a shamefull wresting of the Scripture and inuerting of the manifest doings of our Sauiour Here are two other plaine examples of Christ against Master Saunders the one of his refusall to be a vvorldly King the other to be a'vvorldly Iudge The former he shifteth off in this sortâ—… Christ would not receiue an earthly kingdom into his hands not bycause he would none of it but bycause he woulde not take it of their gifte least it shoulde séeme to come of them For his kingdome is of heauen and notin the originall from the lavv of nations or of the ciuile As though our disputatioÌ„ were so much of the originall as of the vse and hauing of it as though Christe respected nothing but the originall or as though if he woulde haue had such a kingdome he could not haue had it if they had not giuen it him or as thoughe euen the first original of earthly kingdomes came not from God also But to confute you with your owne mouthes I will cite once againe Frier Ferus againste you that alledgeth not onely this cause of the originall but many other causes directly to this purpose Christe fled saithe he bycause he receiued not a kingdome of men but gaue a kingdome vnto men He fled bycause his kingdome is not of this vvorld it is not carnall it consisteth not in externall riches povver pompe c. Yea he rather came that he might teach to contemne these things But his kingdom is a kingdome of truth iustice peace and eternall life For although he gouerne in all the vvorlde yet hee gouerneth not after the manner of the vvorlde nor he affecteth suche a kingdome He sâ—…edde therefore not bycause he vvoulde not raigne ouer the faithfull but bycause he deferreth the expresse tokens of reigning for the time to come Hee sledde bycause hee came to minister not that it shoulde be ministred vnto hym Hee fledde for hee came not to kill Kings but to preach to Kings the knovvledge of raigning iustly not to presse the kingdomes of the world vvith tributes and taxes but that vvhich Kings so vvell as the people vvanted to giue them giftes of life eternall out of the treasure of the kingdome of heauen going about to vanquishe in vvarre a farre other manner of ennimie than Tiberius Caesar and to take an other manner of beaste than Rome vvhyche at that tyme vvas Ladie of the Ievves Besides this hee fledde that he vvoulde not giue to the people an occasion of sedition against Caesar and so vvithall an occasion of sinne and perdition For hee that moueth sedition againste the povver as héere in your writing you M. Sand â–ª do and your Pope doth in his Bulles against Christian Princes sinneth and iustly perisheth for it VVhich Christe himselfe hath spoken he that taketh the svvorde shall perishe vvith the svvorde To conclude he fled least hee should
publike mynisterie of Iesu christ For vvhatsoeuer is of Christe giuen in common to the Christian common vveale is giuen by them that exercise the Legacie for Christe and are Stevvards of his mysteries Your argument is this VVhatsoeuer is giuen in common of Christ to his Church he giues it by the Pastors But povver to make Magistrates and Iudges is giuen in coÌ„mon of Christ to his Church Ergo it is giuen by his Pastors But no man can passe more right to an other than hee hath himselfe The Pastors passe this right and povver of being Magistrates and Iudges in secular matters to another Ergo the Pastors haue right and power of being Magistrates and iudge themselues in secular matters Al these parts coÌ„clusions of these reasons I vtterly deny Master Saunders First the 〈◊〉 is fall 〈◊〉 â—…nsample Christe giues temporall peace in common to his Churche he giue â–ª plentie of fruites and seasonable weather in common to his Churche he giues health and strength of bodie in common to his Church he giues good Magistrates Kings and Princes in coÌ„mon to his Church he giues good lawes natural ciuill and municipall in common to his Churche all these are povvers giueÌ„ of Christ in coÌ„mon to the ChristiaÌ„ common vveale so well as to any other common vveale not Christian but they are not giuen by the ministerie of the spirituall Pastors The maior therefore is not true Secondly the minor is also false that Christ giueth power to his Church to make Magistrates and Iudges ouer secular matters To some Churches indéed he hath giuen this power and dothe giue it where they orderly doe choose their owne Magistrate But this can not be spoken of the Church indefinitely For the Church in most places thereof hath not the choice of Princes but God either by ordinarie succession or by extraordinarie means placeth them ouer the Church and those Princes place the Iudges Thirdly by the Church is not meÌ„t either the ecclesiastical power or the Pastors that haue that povver For the povver is but Gods gift for the Churches vse and benefite and the Pastors are but parts and members of the Church Fourthly this is false also that they can not passe a right to another that they themselues haue not For euen in the dispensation of their mysteries we maye receiue faythe and grace by their ministerie and yet they be gracelesse and haue no faith themselues And in the solemnization of Matrimonie although the Pastor haue no right to the bryde yet he transferreth the hauing of hir froÌ„ hir friends to the brydegrome so may they be Ministers in the intronizing a Prince passing a power froÌ„ God to him which yet theÌ„selues haue not except you will make them Kings And thus all your rules are false and holde not besides that they be all wrested and cleane from the sense of the sentence cited and therefore no good argument can be framed on them that that can rightly conclude the present purpose But nowe Master Saunders will applye this better and here in the margine he setteth downe in great letters Nota Note to sturre vp the Readers attention to note his application But novve saith he if that nevve Iudges must be made of the Churche rather than vve shoulde goe to lavve in secular causes before the Infidels are not nevve Kings also rather to be made of the Churche than that vve shoulde be compelled to pleade our causes before hereticall and scismatical Kings Nowe you beginne handsomely to frame your argument to your purpose for al this while you did but dallie But if the Reader note this matter as you require him to doe as he shal finde no consequence in your argument so shal he finde rancke treason in your conclusion If the argument were good then bycause the Church in Saint Paules time might choose among themselues arbiters to iudge and take vp their petite matters therefore they might haue chosen nevv Kings also to gouerne them But this coulde they not haue done without treason and rebellion therefore this argument is false Is there no difference Master Saunders betwéene the choosing of an vmpier or an arbiter chosen betwéene two parties of their owne voluntarie to iudge and descide their priuate controuersie and the choosing of a supreme publike Magistrate to gouerne their whole estate Who séeth not that this they might in no wise doe The other they might doe well inoughe And so may any of vs doe also to auoyd the charges and troubles of the lawe although we haue Christian Princes and faithfull Iudges too neither troubling those estates nor our selues and saue our money in our purses and better nourishe charitie in not going to lawe but taking vp the matter at home among our neyghbours quietly May we therefore subtracte our selues from the Iudgement Seate of the publike Magistrate when we are called or enforced by lawe thereto and whye mighte we not if we might choose a newe King when we mislyked the olde No Master Saunders this is further from Saint Paules meaning than was the other Saint Paule giues not the Corinths leaue nor power to erecte vp among them selues a publike Magistrate to flée vnto in their contentions vtterly to forsake the iudgement seates of the heathen Iudges and Princes that did gouerne them Saint Paule speakes of their owne voluntarie taking vp of matters by some indifferent man among them to be chosen as Iudge in this or that brawle betwéene them and woulde not haue them of their owne selfe will in matters that might be well taken vp among themselues to runne to Lawe before heathen Magistrates Wherein although he disalow the disorderly contention of the one yet he disaloweth not withall the orderly authoritie of the other which he confesseth to be giuen of God and he exhorteth all subiectes to obey and that for conscience sake euen the gouernement of the heathen Princes notwithstanding they were Christians that were subiectes Whereas if he had ment otherwise he hadde not onely contraryed himselfe but confirmed the sclaunder of the heathen people that the Christians were Rebelles to their estates And he might haue bene accused of sedition as styrring the people to make nevve Magistrates whiche for them being subiectes was aboue their power to doe And although this crime was layde to Saint Paules charge of sowing sedition yet could they neuer iustly proue it on him his doings and writings testifyed the contrarie with what care he labored to kepe the Christians in obedience Who otherwise might here vpon haue had great occasion of choosing nevve Princes pretending they were Christians and made frée by Christe and therefore ought not haue suffered themselues to liue in the heathen Princes bondage Which fréedome of Christian libertie least they should haue thus abused to carnall licenciousnesse and disturbed the order and quietnesse of their estate Saint Paule so often and so earnestly exhorteth them vnto obedience Neither they did so euer
vnderstande this present exhortation to haue the libertie or power to forsake the heathen Magistrates obedience and iudgements and to erecte a nevv Magistrate and Iudge to rule among them For this had bene the readie pathe to all Rebellion And to proue that this is the readiest way to Rebellion sée howe Master Saūders gathereth hereon that nevve Kings are to be made of the Churche rather than vve shoulde be compelled to pleade our causes before hereticall and scismaticall Kings So that if the Prieste shall say the King is an heretike or a scismatike not only the people must so account him but they muste account him no longer to be their King they muste not be compelled to appeare in his Courtes and Consistories they must pleade no cause at all before him or his Iustices but must forthwith choose a nevv King to be their gouernour Howe far this is differing from Saint Paules doctrine from this sentence from subiectes obedience and howe neare to set all the world in an vprore I dout not but if this Nota that M. sand sets it out withal be wel noted it wil not only bréede in the Readers mindes a note of suspicion of priuie conspiracies trayterous packing but openly shew a manifest proclamatiō of plain rebelliō Now to proue that the subiects should thus rebel he sheweth the dangers that should ensue if they should remaine in their obedience For certaine it is that there is more danger of heretical Kings thā is of vnfaithful Iudges For vnfaithful Iudges do not iudge but of matters of this world and that according to the law either of nature which is alwayes right or ciuil vvhiche is seldome vvrong Moreouer vvhat if I suffered vvrong at the tribunall of a Pagane Iudge the losse is small to suffer the spoyle of tēporal goods vvhich good men beare vvith ioye But heretical Kings compel their subiects casting away the catholike faith to embrace their heresie the whiche can not be done vvithout the detriment of eternall saluation It is altogither lavvfull to the Churche of Christe to remoue from his gouernement an heretical a scismatical a symoniacal King and to conclude to remoue him that vvill not amende himselfe and to place another among the Christians in his rome This argument is drawne from the danger of suffering the king is alreadie answered diuers times The lawiers woulde briefly say to this better suffer a mischiefe than an inconuenience but were this an inconuenience too we may not take away one inconuenience with an other greater inconuenience for ther are conuenient remedies of pacience constancie against these inconueniences and not rebellion althoughe the inconuenience were muche greater than M. Sād makes it And yet to aggrauate the same he makes cōparison of a King and a Iudge as though the Iudge represented not the king He compareth the daunger of the losse by the one and by the other as thoughe the heathen Iudges and Princes dealt not also in cases of Religion Who although they were deceiued herein yet they conuented people before them for Religion to driue them from the worship of God to the worship of their Idols and laboured by all persuasions and meanes they coulde to bring them to their Religiō And verie many they brought to their Idolatrie which was more thā the losse of temporal goods euē the detriment of eternal saluatiō Neither did they vse their iudgemēts always according to the lavv of nature or the ciuil neyther doth the one iudge alvvayes right considering the great corruption of nature chiefly in the heathen neyther did the other sildome wrong but often wrong among them neither medled the ciuill Lawe of the Pagans onely with matters of temporall goodes and of this vvorlde but also with matters of the worlde to come and therefore there was further daunger of the iudgementes of those heathen Princes and vnfaythefull Iudges than here Maister Saunders woulde séeme to acknowledge there was mitigating all that he can the daunger ensuing from them to aggrauate the greater daūgers from naughtie Christian Princes But he nede not run to these vntruthes to aggrauate his comparison For we denie not but that if the Prince were such a wicked Prince as he speaketh of it were in dede very daungerous to the faithfull subiects vnder him and so muche the more daungerous that he pretendeth to the faithfull to be a faithfull Prince and is not But what a daungerous doctrine is this that the people should therfore rebell and reuolt vnto another Might the Christiā people in the primitue Church for all the daūger of eternall life that they and all the faithfull were in when the heathen Princes would haue them worship Idols which is as ill as heresie when the heretical scismaticall Emperors being Arians Monothelites c. in the ancient time compelled their subiectes casting away the Catholike faith to embrace their heresies might they remoue thē from their gouernment and place another in his roome ouer the Christians and that that shoulde streight be heresie which the B ▪ of Rome should say were heresie he should be a scismatike that should not consent to him Yea he must be deposed for symonie too ▪ by symonie forsooth we must vnderstand that if the Prince do appoint and inuest a Bishop then streight he is a simoniake and must out of hande be depesed What a greater daūger is here not onely to Christiā Princes but to all the Church of Christ whose sauegarde is here pretended But if we reason of daūgers the greatest daūger of all is of the Pope himselfe his prelates the more daunger that Princes people be thus beguiled by them and yet the king may not meddle with them although his duetie neuer so much require he hath good warrant in the scripture 〈◊〉 remoue them so haue not they of him were they neuer 〈◊〉 good and were he a great deale worse than M. Saunders makes him But Maister Saunders will nowe proue that the Bishops haue warrant out of the scripture for them and once againe he alleageth the example of King Saul and Samuel For if the kingdome of Saul stoode not euen for this that he obserued not the precept of Samuel in wayting for him seuen dayes before he sacrificed Yea if the Lord cast off Saul that he shuld not be the king bicause he fulfilled not also another precept of the Lorde declared by the Ministerie of Samuel in killing Agag if for this disobedience of Saul while he yet raigned Samuel was bidden to anoynt Dauid to be the King of the Iewes and Samuel did it priuily in Bethleem Neither after the holy Ghost sent downe from heauen the spirituall power of the Church can now be lesse than in times past was in the Synagog we must now also confesse that that King which shall dispise to heare the Lord speaking by the mouth of the highest Bishop maye
He toucheth two reasons The one in that he saith to my Lorde The other To the Lordes anoynted But bicause that was the chiefest reason for that Saule was anoynted of the most highe God that onely he nameth twyse Whereby we sée he accempted Saule still as his lawfull king and himselfe to be his dutifull and obedient subiect And so he acknowledged him selfe to Saule when he cried after him saying O my Lord the king â–ª and when Saule looked behind him Dauid enelined his face to the earth and bowed himselfe And Dauid sayd to Saul wherefore giuest thou eare to mennes words that say beholde Dauid seeketh euill against thee Beholde this day thine eyes haue seene that the Lorde hath deliuered thee this day into my hand in the caue and some badde me kill thee But I had compassion on thee and sayd I will not lay my hande on my Maister For he is the Lordes anoynted Moreouer my father behold I say the lappe of thy garment in my hande For when I cut off the lappe of thy garment I killed thee not Vnderstande and see that there is no euill nor wickednesse in me neither haue I sinned against thee According to the Hebrue saith Caietane neither is rebellion in me c. He excludeth all sinne by repeating his worke backwarde For last of all he excludeth sinne against Saul and before rebellion against the King and first of all euill vniuersally And vpon these words The Lord be iudge betwen thee and me And the Lord auenge me of thee and let not my hand be on thee This he said saith Lyra in the zeale of Iustice and not of reuengement For no body ought to take vengeance on his own iniurie by himself except it lye vpon him by his office and euen then it were better that he did it by another All these words saith Caietane are not of him that wisheth but foretelleth and expecteth For they are in the Hebrue texte of the future tence and the indicatiue mode He shall iudge and he shall auenge So farre is Dauid from wishing any euil vnto the king And he so humbleth himselfe vnto him that he calleth himselfe in comparisoÌ„ of the King a dead dogge and a flie Sith I am saith Lyra of no moment or nothing worth in regarde of thee Thus farre was Dauid froÌ„ euer attempting to depose King Saul after Samuel had anoynted him And that not onely where Ionathas but euen where Saul himselfe acknowledged that Dauid shoulde be Kâ—…ng after him saying and nowe I know of a certaintie that thou shalt raigne and the kingdome of Israel shall be established in thy hand But yet he saith not that he then presently raigned neither doth he resigne vnto him but make a couenant and take an othe of Dauid that when he should raigne he shoulde not destroy his séede after him nor take away his name from his fathers house this Dauid swore vnto him Wherin he acknowledgeth though a state to come yet no state in present The like occasion falling out againe 1. Reg. 26. Dauid behaued himselfe to Saul in semblable wise For when he might haue killed him and Abisai would haue killed him â—…he not onely woulde not doe it nor suffer it to be done But he sayth to Abisai destroye him not For who can laye his handes on the Lords anoynted and be giltlesse Dauid sayth Lyra wold gyue this to the person of him so long as he was suffered of God in the Kingdome Alwayes sayth Caietane Dauid had fixed in his harte and in his mouth the honour of the moste high God in so muche that he thoughte none innocent that stretched hys hande vpon the anoynted of god As the Lorde lyueth saith he either the Lord shall smite him or his day shall come to dye or he shall descende into battell and perishe The Lorde keepe me from laying my hand vpon the Lords anoynted By this saith Lira Dauid entended that by no meanes he would be the efficient cause of his death excepte perhaps in defending himselfe so that he could not otherwise escape And when Dauid called to Abner he challenged him to be worthy of death for keping the Kings person no better and when Saul knowing his voice said is this thy voyce my sonne Dauid and Dauid sayd it is my voyce my Lorde O king And he sayde wherefore doth my Lord thus persecute his seruant for what haue I done or what euil is in my hand Now therefore I beseeche thee let my Lorde the King heare the wordes of his seruaunt c. thus humbleth he himselfe in his purgation and sayth the King of Israell is come out to seeke a flie as one woulde hunte a Partridge in the mountaynes So lowly abasing himselfe in comparison of Saul whome he calleth the King of Israel Neyther dissembled he but spake Bona fide euen as he thought in his hart So farre was Dauid from not acknowledging Saul to be still hys soueraigne Lorde and lawfull King so farre from gathering anye vnlawfull assemblyes againste him so farre from any priuie conspiracie or open rebellion so farre from so much as thinking to depose him that when he had him in his daunger he woulde not onely not hurt him nor suffer other to doeit but gaue him so great honour as any subiecte can giue his Prince How then is not the storie of Saule and Dauid wrested for a Christian subiect that hath no such authoritie as Dauid had to depose or take armes against his Christian Prince or to go from the obedience of him as no longer lawfull Kyng after the Byshop shall saye he hathe deposed him and to obey any other that the Bishop shal appoint for King The third thing that Master Saunders inferreth is this that althoughe the Pope and his Bishops may doe thus to Princes yet Princes were very tyrants if they should doe oughte to them And hereto he alleageth that when the high Priest Achimelech asked counsell of the Lord for Dauid Saul hauing intelligence thereof commaunded his seruants to fall vpon the Priests of the Lord no man durst execute so cruell a commaundement besides onely Doeg the Idumean For Achimelechs asking counsell of the Lord for Dauid Whâ—… Dauid fled vnto him first the case Maister Saunders is not so cléere but that as Lyra confesseth a question is made theron for there appéereth no such thing in the. 21. Chapter Althoughe Doeg so accused him and Achimelech standeth not to the deniall thereof but vpon his innocencie Lyra sayth Dicunt aliqui c. Some saye that he lyed as tale bearers are wont to saye more than is in deede but the contrary seemeth rather to bee true So that this is not so cleare a case as you make it But what is all thys storye to the purpose or not rather againste you especially that that followeth of Saules puttyng the Priestes to death Wherein although he dyd a wycked and tyrannous acte yet it argueth
iustice and so Samuel is read to haue killed Ameleck But vnderstanding the killing thus bicause these especialties are not to be drawne by any ordinary exaÌ„ple in the spiritual pastors let vs now admit the figure of the spirituall sworde that M. San. driueth this killing vnto Do you know what this spiritual sworde is M. Sand that you speake on Thinke you it is to coÌ„maund others to fight against kings and to murther their subiects If it be true whiche you affirme that none can escape it that it pierceth the soule they might escape this sworde by many meanes as you say So that it is not the exercise of such a sword nor the bidding of such a sworde to be exercised And howe chaunce then your popes do exercise it you contende héere for it and alleage all these examples yet pretend cleane coÌ„trarie herevnto the only spiritual sword Whereas in very déede ye ought to vse none other euen as your owne Glosse saith hereon â–ª Nocentes iustitia c. The diuine iustice causeth some offenders to be punished with the edge of the sword by kings other it stri keth through with the tongue by Prophets and Priests To punish therfore with the bodily sworde belongeth onely to Princes their officers and not to the Pope his Prelats Wherfore your Pope both lieth and vsurpeth in clayming both swords and your selfe confute him that say you haue the onely spiritual sword and also contrarie your selfe sithe the deposition of Princes from their royall estate belongeth to the secular not to the spiritual sword Which belongeth to the spirite is only of the soule is suche as none can escape And therfore your own self coÌ„fute your self applying the power of the spiritual pastors to the deposing of princes froÌ„ their kingdomes For they may well inoughe escape your popes tyrannie as they do God be praised for it better thaÌ„ héeretofore some Princes haue done And as for his curses which also he calleth his spiritual sword béeing not only nothing like the spiritual sword that God hath appointed but cleane contrarie thervnto Princes shal escape them well inough yea God himself doth belsse them as fast as the pope dothe curse them But master Sanders to proue that they can neuer escape thys sworde saythe Elizeus sworde is reckoned in the laste place and the laste he calleth héere the chiefest But howe agréeth this with that he sayde before of the firste place There he woulde proue the Priests authoritiâ—… chiefest bicause he is reckoned in the first place And héere he would proue the Priests sworde chiefest bicause it is reckoned in the laste place And if it were reckoned in the middle place then would be haue proued it also the chiefest bicause that In medio consistit virtus Vertue consisteth in the middle place And thus be the Priest or any thing belonging to the Priest reckoned in the first place in the middle place or in the last place that is still an argument with M. Sanders of the best and chiefest place But nowe to proue yet better the force of this sworde M. sand procéedeth saying Moreouer to this spiritual sword the other material sword obeieth whiche also taketh punishment of him that setteth him selfe agaynst the spirituall sworde For Elias by the sword of the spirite that is by his prayers commaunded the fire to descende from heauen and consume those captaines of fiftie that despising the spirituall power of the Prophet saide vnto him in the name of the earthly power thou man of God the king commaundeth thee to descende And agayne thus saith the king make haste and come downe For these Captaynes of fiftie trusted so well in their earthly power that is so well in the number of souldiors that were vnder them as in the authoritie of the King for whome they were sent on message and in respect of this power they despised that spiritual power that Elias was endued withall And therefore with mocking saluted him the man of god But when at the worde of Elias the fire came down from heauen and deuoured those two Captaynes and their twice fiftie men that were with them the thirde Captayne of fiftie beeing sent of Ochozias the king acknowledged the sworde of Elias and therefore commaunded not him as the other had done but besoughte him and sayde O man of God dispise not my life and the lyues of thy seruauntes that are with me But what is it that the Prophet regarded not to obey the kings commaundement but that he him selfe in that cause was greater than the king and that he taught euen by the thinges them selues the spirituall power of the Church to be greater than the earthly For neither yet beeing moste humbly desired of the thirde Captaine of fiftie he came downe to the king before the Angell of the Lorde bad him not feare but go downe For he sat in the toppe of a mountaine that is in the chiefest place of the Church VVhich place the earthly king â—…ughte rather to haue honored for Christ whose person Elias did beare thaÌ„ by authoritie to commaunde that the man of God leauing his chaire should come as a subiecte to the king For we reade also that Ambrose complayned that he being a Bishop stoode among them of the Consistorie And said vnto the Emperor if thou haddest acknowledged me thou wouldest not see me in this place Not that I denie the Prophets and Pastors of the Churche to be subiects to the king so farre as their goodes and bodies but I contende that their power is not onely equall but higher than the kings owne iurisdiction is so often as the soules saluation is in hande For neither must we be ignorant of that that Elias therefore would not obey Ochozias the king but rather killed his captaynes and his souldiors bicause the king beeing sicke asked counsell not of the Lords Prophet but of Beelzebub the God of Accaron If therefore any king fal obstinately into heresie or schisme the Bishop and Prophet shall not onely not obey him but also punishe him not only denying vnto him the spiritual goods â–ª but also in taking away his corporal goods after a due sort and order But it was vnworthy for the person of Elias for to kill with his owne handes a hundred and two souldiors of the kinges and therefore with his onely worde he spake and fire came downe from heauen that deuoured those two Captaines of fiftie with their souldiors Master Sanders hauing now referred this sworde of Elizeus to the figure of the spirituall sworde will proue both that it is aboue the kinges sâ—…cular power and also destroyeth them that resiste it But firste hys proues for the superioritie of thâ—…se swordes is neyther belonging to this present purpose nor we contende about it but willingly graunt the stroke of the worde of God to be the greater stroke Elias in that case to be greater than the king
who hauing receiued the power of the sword would haue offred himself to vse it for Elias Or else let vs put the case that it is said of Elias vnto him bycause these souldiors contemne me and in me God whose prophete I am rushe thou on them and kill them Had now that Prince sinned if at the word of Elias he had killed the Kings subiectes eyther else coulde not an earthly sword haue performed the same thing that the ministerie of fire did yelde from heauen Truly with wyse men it makes no matter what is done of those things that are of the same waight and moment If fire be the more noble element than earthe yea or those metals that are digged oute of the earth I see not but that he who called fyre downe from heauen which shoulde satisfie his commaundement muche more coulde haue spoken to a Magistrate bearing the sword that he should pull out and drawe that sword for him against any King. Whatsoeuer you see not Maister Saunders you make all the world to see that you be of a viperous generation and adders broode that cannot créepe forward by lying straight but wynding and crooking in and oute hether and thether Sée howe you sâ—…ill séeke shiftes whereby to procéede when by the directe Scripture your cause will not goe forward You fall to putting of cases once agayne Put case the scripture had sayde thus Put case Elias had done this Put case another had done that What a warbling is this If you will alleage the Scripture take the Scripture directly as it lyes Put no more cases to the Scripture than the Scripture puttes Are you wyser than God or not as false as the olde Serpent that in tempting Eue altered the wordes of God But this argueth that the Scripture it self fitteth not your turne except you may turne and alter it as you will. You pretende it is no matter wyth wise men what is done of those things that are of the same waight and moment As whether these men were kylled by the fire or by the sword sith they were killed But are these punishmentes all one Maister Saunders to haue bene striken with the sworde of a man and to be consumed with fire from God in déede as you saye here is death in both which is the same thing but are their kindes of death and punishmentes of the same waight and moment When the foure Kings slewe the Sodomites and when God raigned downe â—…ire and brimstone from heauen to sâ—…ay the Sodomites when Saul as Maister Saunders sayde before killed the Priests and when God kylled the Priests with fire from heauen is here nothing in these deathes but the difference of the more noble element Surely it séemeth Maister Saunders you haue bene so long in Rome that you are become Inglese Italia nato so worldly wyse that you haue no feare of Gods vengeance that thus measure it by mannes punishment There is a great difference Maister Saunders in the waight and moment of these punishmentes not onely to shewe the heauier wrathe of God but also to shewe that althoughe Elias desired it on suche specialties as is aforesayde yet the punishment was onely from God not from Elias he had not the fire at his commaundemente but God sento the fire vpon them which maketh another greater difference of the case besides other sundry differences that cleane do alter it For it is not likely that Elias woulde euer haue set another Prince vpon his owne Princes subiectes or styrre anye rebellion against his Prince howe sharpely soeuer he rebuked him for hys sinnes He neither spared King Achab nor Quéene Iesabell nor their sonne Qchozias but boldly reproued them But as for deposing them or mouing other Princes to depose them or to kill either them or their people he neuer dyd it nor euer shewed anye tâ—…ken of lyking suche doyng and therefore we oughte not to presuppose any such thing of him These things he did he killed the Priesâ—…s of Baal eyther by his bydding them to be killed or as Lyra sayth propriamanu he kylled some of them with his owne hande And here he besoughte God take this vengeance on these wicked souldiers and this he dyd by the â—…stincte of god The other that you put the case for we finde no suche dede nor haue any such warrant and without such warrant from God they should sauor of treason to the Prince and so make a great alteration of the case to serue your purpose and wreste the Scripture and therefore are not to be admitted But although saith M. sand Princes of this world see not the power of this spirituall sworde notwithstanding if at the prayer of Elizeus God vouchsafe to open their eyes â–ª they shal see moe armies with the B. thaÌ„ with any Emperor For behold the mountaine full of horses of firie charets round aboute Elizeus But when the King of Israel seeyng the greatnesse of the faâ—…ine sware that the heade of Elizeus shoulde not stande vpon him that daye Elizeus that knewe this othe of the King to be vnlawfull foreseyng in the spirite the messenger to be at hande that shoulde execute the Kings commaundement he sayde vnto the elders that were with him knowe ye not how this murtherers sonne hath sent to take away mine heade take heâ—…de therfore when the messenger coÌ„meth shut the dore and set him not enter Yea Sanctes Pagninus so expoundes these later woordes oppresse him in the dore By which wordes not onely the shutting out of the Kings messenger is signified but also a certayne violence done vnto him All which I haue broughte to this ende that I mighte shewe that the pastors of the Churche haue power not onely ouer the soules of the faythfull but also ouer their bodyes and goods so often as the soules health maye be promoted thereby For we know also that two beares comming out of the woode dyd â—…eare in peeces â—…ortie and two of those Children that mocked Elizeus VVhereby also is declared that all the creatures of God aryse to reuenge their iniuries whome God hath adorned with spirituall power And truely when good Kings wanted that woulde reuenge the contumely done to the pastors of the Churche the element of fire and the wilde beasts toke that care on them We had before the example of Elias and then of Elizeus and then againe of Elias and nowe agayne of Elizeus Of whom three things are here alleaged The first that Elizeus had greater power to defende hym than the Kyng of Syria to oppugne hym The seconde when the Kyng of Israell sente to kill him he caused the messenger violentlye to be kept oute of the dore The thirde when the children of Bethel mocked him he cursed them and straight wild beares destroyed them To the first I answere it is impertinent to the purpose of deposing Princes or seazing on their teÌ„porall goods kingdomes or causing
to do For the King immediatly repenting him of his wicked othe and hastie crueltie came himself as it séemeth by the text in all hast after the Messanger to stay his hande and to let the Prophet of God alone acknowledging his offence and that his punishment was euen the hande of god Nowe Elizeus by reuelation knowing of all this what did he in bidding them resiste the Messanger but euen obey the Kings will and therefore when he had them kéepe him out or offer him violence if ye will néedes so expounde it he sayth withall is not the sounde of his masters féete behinde him and this was the verie cause why he bad them do so Let him enter cuius causa subditur c. saith Lyra the cause vvhereof is annexed for beholde the sounde of his Masters feete is after him for after the departure of the Messanger Ioram repented and therefore he followed him to reuoke the precept And faith Caitane That they should boldly resist the Kings messanger he foretelleth theÌ„ that the King follovved his Messanger repenting that hee sent him And therefore the King follovved the Messanger bycause he repented that he had commaunded that Elizeus head shoulde be cut off for he came to himself againe and came personally to moue his complaint before Elizeus Nowe all this that should haue lightned the master M. Sand â–ª concealeth and cuts off this sentence of Elizeus in the middle taking no further thereof than he thought he might wreste to séeme to serue his purpose after such maner as the Deuill cited scripture against christ Whereas the whole sentence set down and the storye considered it maketh cleane against him Neuerthelesse had Elizeus on the especiall will and reuealing of God done otherwise it had made nothing for him The thirde example of Elizeus maketh least of all to the purpose Bycause Elizeus cursed the children that scorned him and they by Gods iust vengeaunce were destroyed by Beares that therfore he euer attempted to depose the King or sollicited his subiectes to rebel against him This conclusion is to farre fetched And yet that whiche Elizeus there did doing it in the name of the Lorde and by reuelation of the Lorde pronouncing the sentence of Gods iustice vpon them as Lyra saith can no more be leuelled to an ordinarie rule than the fire that came downe at the petition of Elias Neither dothe the Popishâ—… glosse or Lyra gather thereon that Byshops might cause their Princes subiectes to be destroyed that mocke them but they make this a figure of Christe Mystice exponendo c. In expounding this mystically Elizeus going vp to Bethell signifieth Iesus Christe ascending to his Crosse vvhome the levves mocked according to the texte of the Gospell For the vengeance vvhereof tvvo Beares came aftervvarde into Iurie to vvit Titus and Vespasian and killed the people fortie yeres after the passion of the Lorde for reuenge of the contuâ—…elie done vnto him This figure your owne commentaries make hereon But I haue not read that any maketh it serue for Byshops to depose Princes but for Princes to depose wicked Byshoppes that crucifie Christe in his members and deride the simplicitie of the Gospel Who rather than they should remaine vnpunished God will styrre vp heathen Princes to punishe theÌ„ as he did these Beares and flashe downe fyre from heauen to destroye al those Priestes that offer strange fyre to God and will styrre vp all his creatures to reuenge the iniuries done to his Saints Ministers vvhere good Princes want as you say that should reuenge the same But then freuible you ye cruel papists that haue done so many outrages to Gods Ministers and haue shed so much blood of his Saintes that ye shall neuer flée Gods héauie veÌ„geance howsoeuer good kings do vvant Though you abuse Kings to be executioners of your cruelties whose duetie by your owne confession were to punish such iniuries Whiche if they woulde better looke vnto and put in practise they should so litle feare your deposings of them that they would depose euery one of you And thus as all your examples make nothing for you so euery one of them maketh so muche againste you that it séeineth as these Syrians were so blinded that séeking to take Elizeus they were ledde they wist not whither euen into Samaria and were themselues taken of their enimies so you seeking to take the Ministers of God to take the Christian Princes power from him to bring all to your holy father Benadab are so blynded in framing your arguments that you blunder on such examples as still make cleane against you But novve after the acceptable time is come vvherein are many Christian Kings of vvhom some alvvays obey the Vicars of Christe there is novve no neede of myracles or of the ministerie of creatures vvanting reason sithe there vvante not faithfull Princes vvhich may performe and execute this For sith Zacharie the Prophete of God hath foretolde that so great a fountain of grace should be opened to al after the coÌ„ming of Christ that eueÌ„ ones father mother should thrust him through vvhom they should vnderstand to speake a lye hovv muche more at this day shal there not vvant those that shall not suffer him to liue vvhom they shall perceiue that he vvill not obey the high Priests coÌ„mandement For the power of the Ministers of Christ is so much higher than the povver of the Priests of the Leuitical kind by how much difference Iustice Spirit life that we minister excel daÌ„natioÌ„ the letter deth which things the leuitical priests by occasioÌ„ ministred If there wanted Christian Kings and faithful Princes theÌ„ and yet the Prophets then deposed not the wicked Princes nor set vp new Princes but rather coÌ„mitted the vengeance to God that punished Idolaters by the ministerie of creatures vvanting reason vvhere there vvanted faithfull Princes to do it with what face can you M. Sanders alledge these examples for the Pastors deposing of Kings whiche are so flat arguments against it that where Christian Kings and faithfull Princes vvant to punishe Idolaters and deriders of Gods Ministers there Christian Pastors should commit the vengeance to God rather thaÌ„ atteÌ„pt to depose those vnfaithfull Princes which no faithfull Prophete did But now say you are many ChristiaÌ„ Princes of vvhoÌ„ some alwayes obey the Vicar of Christe For so ye call your Pope Whether the Popâ—… be Christes or Sathans Uicar is an other questioÌ„ M. Sano Whether any Christian Kings obey him is somwhat nearer to the purpose although not directly to the question here in hande But if this be true that there are many Christian Kings of whome some alwayes obey the Pope then are there also many Christian King of whome some neuer obeye the Pope And if they maye be Christian Kings that neuer obey the Pope as were the Emperors of Greece the Christian Kings in Asia Affrica and the Northeast partes
â–ª for the which he was cast out of the house of the lord Moreouer Ioatham his sonne gouerned the house of the king and iudged the people of the Lorde VVho seeth not the bodily casting foorthe of the king oute of the house of the Lorde clerely to expresse that ecclesiasticall power whereby kings taking vpon them the offices of Priests maye be caste out of the kingdome of heauen by the excommunication of the highest Bishop Moreouer if bicause the king was made a Leper the administration of the kings house and the gouernment of all the people was deuolued vnto the kinges sonne howe muche more the infection of heresie which as S. Augustine saythe is signified by the leprie ought to bring to passe that a Prince beeing driuen to the state of a priuate life maye be compelled to leaue his house voyde vnto hys successor This storie of king Ozias as it is already cited by M. Stapleton and was not before forgotten of M. Sanders so héere and in diuers other places it is recited Neither is there any one Popishe writer on this question of Supremacie but he alleageth this exaÌ„ple And as they thus often alleage it so is it often by vs answered and in déede it is casie to be answered for it is not to the purpose and but their malicious slaunder to burden the Protestant Princes with it who take not vpon them to do the offices belonging to the Bishops and Ministers of Gods word and Sacramentes as héere Ozias attempted to do If you can name any suche Prince and such things name them hardly M. Sand but proue it withal else you are but a slaunderer of those that be in authoritie But here M. sand applies this exaÌ„ple to this that the highest Bishop may excommunicate such a Prince and cast him out of heauen Whether your Pope be the highest Bishop or no is still another question But this is out of questioÌ„ M. sand that he is alwayes more ready to cast a Prince oâ—…t of heauen thaÌ„ to bring him into heauen and to caste him out of his kingdome too than to let him enioy it especially if he deale with him although he do not as Ozias did but do the dutie of a godly Christian king But who denieth this M. sand that a godly Bishop may vpon great vrgent occasion if it shall be necessarie to edifie Gods Church and there be no other remedie to flée to this last censure of excoÌ„municatioÌ„ against a wicked king although you can not inferre any suche necessarie conclusion vpon the allegorie of this example But what is this for the expelling him out of his kingdome â–ª and for deposing him from his estate Can you proue that Azarias and his Priests did handle Ozias thus For this is the present question but this you can not finde they dyd and therfore this example serueth not your purpose Well say you they vsed a bodily casting out of the king out of the house of the Lorde Trow you M. sand they tooke him by the héeles cast him out or by the head and the shoulders â–ª thrust him out I trow not that they layde any violent hands vpon him They withstoode him but it followeth how they saide vnto him It pertayneth not to thee to burne inceÌ„se vnto the Lord but to the priests the sons of Aaron that are coÌ„secrated to offer incense Go foorth of the SaÌ„ctuary for thou hast traÌ„sgressed thou shalt haue no honor of the Lord God. This was no resistaÌ„ce M. San. to blam him for his wickednesse wheÌ„ he regarded not their sayings but was wroth with theÌ„ was eueÌ„ ready to offer the incense God stroke him with the leprie So that it appeareth they laid no violeÌ„t hands on him but rebuked him yet in his fury he had done it had not God him self with his sodayn vengeance stopped him If they had béene so disposed béeing forty valiant men besides the highe Priest they might haue wroong the Censor out of his hande and might haue pulled off the Priestly garments from his backe for so Iosephus telleth how he came into the Temple howbeit they resisted him not in suche violent â—…rte But say you when they espied God had once striken him with the leprie then quickly they thrust him out But not with violence M. Sanders Non explicatur expulsio c. saythe your Cardinall of Caieta thrusting him out is not expressed but the Priests when they sawe the Leprie warned the leprous king to go foorth Neither néeded he then any great warning Sed ipse c. For the king himselfe beeing terrified made haste to get out bicause he felte foorth with the stroke of the Lorde so that he was not only moued of the priests but also moued of him selfe féeling the 〈◊〉 of God to go out of the Temple What great violence was here done of the Priests to the King except their rebuking or warning of him either before his presumptuous attempt or after Did they strike him No God stroke him M. Sanders and not the Priests for all they were so many tall fellowes and had mighte inough to haue striken him If your Pope therefore and his Prelates will take this Bishop and his Priests for their example they muste be as S. Paule sayth no strikers nor fighters chiefly not not agaynst their Princes they must be mightie but not in blowes but potentes sermone mightie in the word to reproue the wickednesse of Princes and so resist them as S. Paule sayth he resisted Peter to his face not that he buffeted or pâ—…meld him with his fiste aboute the face as Bishop Boner did his prisoners But he resisted him in spéeche reprehending him and with such resistance these Priests resisted the king â–ª and all Bishops may and ought to resist all wycked princes but this is farre from deposing them or sollicitâ—…ng other Princes to make warre vpon them or mouing their subiects to rebell agaynst them But master Sanders brgeth further what followed The king beeing a â—…eper dwelt in a house apart til the day of his death and his sonne gouerned the kings house and iudged the people of the lande What is this M. Sand to the Priests deposing of him that he dwelt aparte For beeing a Leper God in his lawe had so appoynted Leuit. 13. Neyther dyd the contagion of his disease suffer the administration of his office Howbeit neither for his offence nor for his punishmeÌ„t therof was he deposed froÌ„ his kingdom his sonne made king but the sonne as his fathers deputie â–ª administred the affaires of his fathers kingdome so for al this Ozias continued king euen til the day of his naturall deathe whiche was a longer time if your Glosse be true after this fact than he had beene king before this fact coÌ„mitted â–ª For saith your owne glosse Volunt Hebraei c. The Hebrues will haue it that this hapâ—…ed in the 25. yere
is yet aboue the Byshops And although the King so well as the priuate man ought to require the lavve of the Lord out of the priestes lippes yet if the Priest instâ—…ade of the Lords lavve will giue his owne lavv the king ought to rebuke or punish him For if the King ought to require it of the B. then as it is the Byshops duetie to yelde it so is it the Princes duetie and ofâ—…ce to call vpon him to sée to it that the B. faithfully giue it to him to all the priuate men in his kingdome Whiche againe proueth so litle the Byshops authoritie ouer the King that it playnely proueth the Kings authoritie ouer the B. in requiring of theÌ„ to preach the lavv of God which is their proper office calling and not to gouerne Kings and translate kingdomes Sixtly and lastly I answere that if this were graunted to the Pope which M. sand woulde so faine conclude that one Iudge in the Church should be ordeined betvvene Kings themselues and them and their peoples that this one Iudge shoulde be the Pope where he pretendeth it woulde cut off infinite occasions of warres and tumults as this conclusioÌ„ can not be gathered on this example so this effecte of peace to ensue by this meanes is but an imagination in M. sand opinion we should finde another manner of effecte thereof that would be the very welspring of infinite warres and tumults And least he shoulde thinke that I speake partially against the Pope as he doth for the Pope I report me to the experience of it and not to vaine imaginations what tragedies hath the Pope raysed betwene the Gréeke Germaine Emperors chiefly to the Henries the 4. the â—… â–ª to Frederike the 2. to Lewis the 4. to the tumults of King Iohn in EnglaÌ„d to the Popes practises betwene Germanie FrauÌ„ce Spaine for the kingdomes of Cicil Naples for the Duchie of Apulia Millaine to the maintenance of the factions in Italy betwene the Guelphes and Gebellines the white sect and the blacke secte the French Imperials the Uenetians and the Genowaies the Florentines and the Pisans al the states of Italy Al which and infinite moe warres and tumults in Christendom haue ben raysed nourished abetted chiefly by this one Iudge the Pope and yet would M. sand haue him to be the onely Iudge and definer whether any King should be deposed or be placed Were not this the readiest way to set al Princes by the eares chiefly if he wold change his mynd vpon displeasure or his successor should fauour an other or there were two or thrée Popes at once theÌ„ should al Christendome be in a broyle by the eares togither and the Pope would clap them on the backe and win by the spoyle of all countries and no countrie shoulde haue their lawfull and naturall Prince but either foraine or periured vsurpers nor any Prince haue his royall authoritie but be the Popes Tenants at will. If the world were come to this passe as it appeareth the Papistes would haue it were not this a goodly quiet world trow you But then it were a goldeÌ„ world for the Priests when all men else shoulde finde it a bloudie world and euery man werâ—…â—…eadie to cut an others throate and all things runne to hauocke But were it admitted that none of these mischieues should ensue but that al occasions of vvarre and tumults vvould be cut off yet sith this calling to rule all Christian Kings and kingdomes is vnlawfull for any Byshop besides Christe to haue what were this peace but as the wicked say Pax pax vbi non est pax peace peace where God saith there is no peace what were this peace but the worldes peace yea the Diuels peace where the strong man helde all things in his house in peace where Antichriste ruled in quiet prosperâ—…tie till Christe a stronger than he woulde come and breake his peace Rather than tumults shoulde be cut off with suche a shamefull peace and peace bought with suche a wicked condition it were far better for Princes to striue to the death for the truth against such peace and to cut off suche an arbiters head who to maintaine his pryde for worldly peace would make open warre with Christe And thus we sée the effecte would be naught and yet as naughtie as this peace woulde be we shoulde not haue it peaceably neyther if the Pope might set in his foote take vpon him to depose kings and translate kingdomes But this example of Ioiada giueth him no such authoritie M. Saund. hauing now gathered together all the proues examples that he coulde wrest with any colour to his purpose leaueth the olâ—…e Testament falleth to the like proues and wrestings of the newe Testament Howe Christe for the saluation of one man let the deuils drowne two thousande hogges How Christ draue the buyers and sellers out of the Temple How S. Paule gaue the incestâ—…ous fornicator at Corinth and Hymeneâ—… and Alexander to Sathan How Peter reproued Ananias and his wife for lying to the holy Ghost they fell downe dead But how al these things are wrested is appâ—…ant For in all this here is no king deposed and therfore they serue not to this question But how euery one of them serueth to confute the Papistes bicause the volume is risen too large alreadie in these answeres and chiefly in the answere to Maister Stapleton I am constraâ—…ned here to breake off stay As for that which followeth of the Fathers of the Histories and how those also are wrested as â—…oulie as these I purpose to reserue God willing to another volume In the meane time let vs coniecture the residue by these arguments the rest of al the Papists by these two M. Stapleton and M. Saunders who are nowe their principall writers Whereby as we may easily weighe the peise of their stuffe so we mayâ—… euidently sée the driâ—…te of their malice Thirsting blood breathing treasons practising conspiracies procuring seditions blowing out as it were a trumpet to open rebellion against the Queenes Maiestiâ—… their Natural Soueraigne and our most Gracious Gouernour against all the states of the Realme and to make haâ—…e of the whole congregation of Christ and all to maintaine the pride the tyrannie the errors and superstitions of the Pope But with what weake and selender reasons how impudently wrested how shamefully applyed how vnfitly concluded All the world may sée and themselues be ashamed if they be not past shame All the children of God may cléerely beholde and not be afraide but the fullier confirmed in the truth thereby All Christian Princes may the better perceiue and the more abhorre the Popishe practises with all their power represse them as the vtter ruinâ—… of their sstates and considering their high calling may zealously loke to the dutie of their authoritie and as their Titles put them in minde be in déede most Christian
a. Stap. 48. The papistes shiftes from Priestes to Peophets and from Prophets to Priests for the Popes primacie How highely Popâ—…sh priests esteeme of theÌ„ solues Deut. 13. 3. Reg. 22. 3. Reg. 18. Math. 7. 1. Pap. 25. 1. Par. 23. 1. Par. 24. 1. Par. 25. 1. Par. 26. Both the chiefe prophets and cheife priestes vnder the appoyntment of the king 2. Par. 29. Stap. 48. a. Carolus Magnus an vnlike match to Dauid Stap. 48 â–ª The lawe of King â—…uo Priuileges of Princes to the clergie well or yll vsed The Pope and his prelates like the Iuy Stap. 48. b. Stap. 49. a. The Queenes Ma estie by the Papists shamefully 〈◊〉 Win. Pag. 9. a. Cap. 12. Stap. 48. b. The example of the supreme gouernment of K. Salomon Salomons dedeposing the high priest Stap. 48. b Salomons example deposing Abâ—…athar applied by the papists to Queene Mâ—…rie deposing the archbishop Cran. Fol. 44. b 45 b. 47. a. 48. b The difference betwene Q. Maries and king SalomoÌ„s doings Stap. 49. â—… Stap. 49. â—… Stap. 49. a. Master Stap. question and dilemma Stap. 49. a. The difference of the phrase for the princes sacrificing and the princes de posing Abiathat The question and the dilemma returned on the papists Sup. fol. 217. a Stap. 4 9. â—… The highest priest a traytor A traytor The Bishop of Rome a traytor to the â—…mperor of Rome Stap. 4 9. a. 3. Reg. 2. Stap. 4 9 a. The ministerie and executing of Gods sentence debarreth not the princes supremacie Stap. 49. â—… The issue 〈◊〉 question Master Stap. graunteth the Pâ—…ince to be chiefe ruler in some ecclesiasticall causes What the authoâ—…tie of depâ—…sing the Pope implieth A difference betweene the chiefe â–ª ruler of ecclesiasticall causes and the chiefe doer of them The example of king Iosaphats supreme gouernment Cap 13. Sta. 50. a. Sta. 50. a. Wherein christian Princes must go beyondâ—… kâ—…ng 〈◊〉 hat 2. Par. 20. Sâ—…a 50 a. Iosaphat direc ted ecclâ—…siastical matters not by the commandement but by the aduise of the prests Sta. 50. a. Sta 50. a. Sta. 50. a. Sta. 50. a. Psalm 2. Sta. 50 a. In cle si Rom. N 22. de prebendis Supra 205. a. Stap. 50. a. b. Sta. 50. b. Stap. 50. b. How contemp tuously the papistes esteeme of the examples of the scriptures 2. Par. 17. Preachers sent of the prince Lyra in 2. patal 17. The princes progresse about religion Lyra in 2. paral 19. Vatablus Lyra. Iustices of the peace Lyra. Stap. 50. b. Sâ—…apl 51. â—… The princes forme and order in proceeding Stapl. 51. â—… Stap. 51. â—… Religion only proceedeth froÌ„ God the preaching proceedeth from the ministers the direction and ordering from the Prince Stapl. 50. b. The Papistes denie not only the Princes go uernment of ecclesiasticall matters but also of ecclesiastical persons Supra pa 47. â—… Stapl. 5â—…â—… King Iosaphat did not deale sclenderly in ecclesiasticall matters but as his chiefest charge 2. Paral. 19. Lyra in 2. Paral 19. Nothing ecclesiasticall or temporal exeÌ„pted from the chief ouersight of the Prince no not of the cases Deut. 17. that the Papists chiefly boast vppon Stap. 51. â—… The iniuÌ„ctioÌ„â—… of princes for the obseruatioÌ„ of ecclesiastical matters and threates of displeasure for the breache of them Lyra in 2. Paâ—…al 19. The king iudged ecclesiasticall causes in that his debiâ—â—e iudged them 2. Paral. 19. Stap 51. b. Diuine matters not excluded from the kings office The priest the princes commissioner 2. Paral. 17. Stap. 51. a. Lyra in 2. Paral. 19. Vatablus Sta. 50. a. The prince commandeth the Priest. Fol. 52. a. The example of king â—…zechias supreme gouernment in ecclesiastical causes 4. Reg. 18. 2. Pat. 29. Stapletoa Caput 14. Fol. 52. b. Lyra. Ecclesiasticall matters by K. Izechias newly established To be readie and seruiceable to fulfill Gods determination debarreth not the Princes supreme gouernment Ezechias executed Gods commaundement and the clergie the coÌ„maundement of Ezechias Lyra in 2. Par. 29. 2. Par. 29. Lyra in 2. Par. 29. Lyra. Iniunxiâ—… 〈◊〉 Praecepit renouationem diuini cultus Imagines Idololatriae multas The popishe fond destinction of â—…mage and Idoll 4. Reg. 18. The Princes predecessors disposing debarreth not his supreme gouernment The subiection to Gods commaundement embarreth not the Princes supreme gouernment The doing it by the handes of the prophets or any other embarreth not the Princes supreme gouernment Stap 53. â—… The asking counsell of others debarieth not the Princes supreme authoritie in the doing 2. paâ—…al 30. Lyra in 2. Par 30. Sâ—…ap 53. â—… Ezechias did many things neuer so done before â—… Paâ—… 30. Lyra in 2. Paral. 30. Lyra in â—… Paral. 3â—… 2. paral 31. The commendation and application of K. Ezechias Stap 59. a. A proper shifting answere muche vsed by M. St in these examples Supra 50. b. Stap. 53. a. Daniel 7. Apoc. 12. Gal. 1. The name of ministers 1. Cor. 4. 3. Reg. 18. Daniel 14. Stapl. 53. a. The popish priestes now not like the true prophetes The Papistes shifte from Priests to Prophetes Fol 53. a. The example of King Iosias his supreme gouernmeÌ„t in ecclesiasticall causes Sta. Caput 15. Stapl. 53. a. b. 4. Reg. 23. 2. Par. 34. 35. Lyrâ—… Iosias trauaile by his kingly authoritie Stap. 53. a. b. The trauailes of good catholike princes Whether we or the Papists let vp Idols Sta. 50 a. How the popish prelaâ—…s vsed christian Princes Howe the Q. Highnes follo with the ensample of Iosias 4. Reg. 23. Monkes and Nunnes celles pulled downe Sta. 53 b. Stap. 53. b. Master Stap. stragleth from the marke and calleth on the Bishop to kepe him to the marke The issue in question betvvene the Bishop and master Fecknam Sup. â—…ol 136. a M. Stap. settes vp ix â–ª nevve markes both differing from M. Feck and the Bâ—…shops issue and also from his ovvne former marks and yet cryes oâ—…t on the B. for straying from the question The Papistes play like the Lapvving The issue Stapl. 53. b. M. Stapletons first falâ—… marke The kings agnising the high Priest in the old testament inferreth not that they agnised him their â—…npreme gouernour St. fol. 53. b. St. fol. 53. b. M. St. second false marke The conferring of the Q Maiesties doing with these auncient and godly kings The Papistes vaunt of 1000 yeares antiquitie The Papistes dare not stretch their crake of antiquitie to Christe or to 1500. yeareâ—… and vpvvarde Galat. 1. Stap. 54. a. M. Stap. thirde false marke In the proofe of the supreme gouernment the proofe of euery particuler fact is not necessarie The issue betweene the B. and M. Feck The taking an othe The othe to the Pope The high priest in the olde law did not as the pope doth novv The kingâ—… in the olde lawe charged their clergy on their priesthood for eccl. matters Sta. 54 â—… Stap. 54. â—… M. St. fourth false marke The Prince abandoneth not godly bishops though he abaÌ„ don the Pope The abandoning of the
vpon him with his foote and as his page to holde his stirrop to his foote and claimes to giue or take awaye his estate And you say here for all estates of the clergie VVe ought to be subiect not onely to Christians but euen to Infidels also being our Princes without any exception of Apostle Euangelist Prophete Priest or Monke What and is your Pope none of these Maister Stapleton an Apostle he is not without a pseudo nor he calles himselfe an Apostle but Apostolicall Much lesse he is an Euangelist and least a Prophete except a lying Prophete Sometimes in déede he hath bene a Monke but is there any Pope not a priest If he be a Priest then ought he by your owne confession to be subiect to the Emperour and in refusing this subiection what can ye make of him but as your selfe to your Prince so he to his Prince a very rebell and vsurper against his prince If ye say the Emperour is not his prince why is he then named the Emperor of Rome is not the name of an Emperor the name of the chiefest Principalitie And then if he be Emperor or king of the Romaines howe ought not the Pope being a Romaine or dwelling at Rome within this Princes kingdome or Empyre be subiect to this king or Emperour at the least as ye say in temporall and ciuill matters Doe ye thinke to escape in saying VVe ought to be subiect to our Princes without exception but he ought not I had thought ye had spoken of all Christiana and had simply mâ—…nt as Chrysostome did to whome ye referre your selfe who speaketh in generall of euery man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fuerâ—… or whosoeuer thou art which wordes ye dissemble and omit So that if your Pope be of 〈◊〉 calling and he be no more a Priest than Pope Ioane 〈◊〉 he a soule be he a bodye he ought by your owne graunt to 〈◊〉 subiect to the Emperour of Rome in these matters 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 the Emperour to be subiect vnto him Whiche 〈◊〉 the Pope shall vnderstande â—…owe for his 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 and for all his ciuill and temporall matters you woulde bring him to hys olde obedience 〈◊〉 the Emperour as he hath bene I thinke he will 〈◊〉 sâ—…all thanke Maister Stapleton for your labour But all this subiection saye you is but graunted in temporall and ciuill matters Doth Saint Paule Maister Stapleton alleage this distinction or Chrysostome to whoÌ„ ye reforro your selfe no M. St. they make no such restraint but stretch this obedience as to al ecclesiastical persons so principally to all ecâ—…l â–ª matters to the setting forth Gods religon â–ª And so Pauledoth call the Prince Gods minister â–ª And Chrysostome sayth Neque enim ista subiectio piâ—…tatem subuertit for neyther this subiectioÌ„ ouerturneth godynesse And vpon these words He is the minister of God a reuenger to him that doth euil He saith Againe least thou shouldst start back hearing of punishment correction and the sword he mentioneth againe that the Prince fulfilleth the lawe of God for what though the Prince himselfe know it not yet God hath so formed and ordeined it If therfore either he punish or aduance he is the minister of God maintaining vertue abolishing wickednesse euen bicause God would haue it so By what reason repugnest thou in striuing against him that bringeth such good things and goeth before thee and prepareth a way for thy affaires for many there are which at the first exercised vertue for respect of the magistrate but at the length they cleaued thervnto euen for the feare of god For things to come do not so moue the grosser sort as present things He therfore that prepareth the minds of many both with feare and honor that they may be made fitter for the worde of doctrine is worthily called the minister of God. In which words he plainly sheweth that the Princes ministery wherby he is called Gods minister consisteth in making vs fit apt receiuers of the wordâ—… of doctrine which the minister teacheth the Prince by punishing or rewarding goeth before prepareth a waye and bringeth to vs making vs apt to receyue either for feare 〈◊〉 loue this benefit by his ministâ—…rie In which work as the Apostles Preachers for the vtteraÌ„ce of the word of doctrine are called the workers togither with God so the Prince in preparing this way to the worde making vs apt to it is likewise said of Chrysostom that he worketh togither with the will of God. Wherin as we must not repâ—…gne against the prince so this obedience that we owe vnto him is not only in temporall and ciuill matters but in making vs apt for the worde of doctrine in which all eccl. matters are comprehended Now after M. St. hath thus stoode quarrelling in vain with the B. allegations he fourthly entreth into a reply vpon the B. with other allegations collected out of the same father Chrysost theroÌ„ frameth an argument against the Princes superiority In the forhed wherof he prefixeth this marginal note the Priesthode is aboue a kingdom which note as it is true in the sense that Chrysost. vnderstandeth it so maketh it nothing that he is abouâ—… him in the supreme gouernment directioÌ„ of all eccl. causes which is the present questioÌ„ the thing that M. 〈◊〉 â–ª calleth so osteÌ„ at other times vpoÌ„ But now saith M. St. As contrariwise the Prince himselfe is for ecclesiasticall spirituall causes subiect to his spiritual ruler VVhich Chrysostome himselfe of all men doth best declare Alij sunt termini c. The boundes of a Kingdome and of Priesthoode sayth Chrysostome are not all one this Kingdome passeth the other this King is not knowne by visible things neither hath his estimation for precious stones he glistreth withall or for his gay golden glistring apparel The other King hath the ordring of those worldly things the authoritie of Priesthood commeth from heauen VVhatsoeuer thou shalt binde vpon earth shall be bounde in heaueâ—… To the King those things that are here in the worlde are committed but to me celestiall things are committed VVhen I say to mee I vnderstande to a priest Andanon after he sayth Regi corpora c. The bodies are coÌ„mitted to the King the soules to the priest The King pardoneth the faultes of the bodie the Priest pardoneth the faultes of the soule The King forceth the Priest exhorteth the one by necessitie the other by giuing councel the one hath visible armour the other spirituall He warreth agaynst the barbarous I warre agaynst the deuill This principalitie is the greater and therefore the King doth put his heade vnder the Priestes handes And euery where in the olde scripture Priestes did annoynt the Kings Among all other bookes of the said Chrysostome his booke de sacerdotio is freighted with a number of like and more notable sentences for the Priestes superioritie aboue the Prince For the other sentences in Chrysostome I can not directly aunswere
them master Stapleton till ye set them downe I thinke they will all come in the ende to the effect of this sentence here so often by all yourside alleaged Ye cite Chrysostome as though it were at the full Where in déede ye cut off both the heade the middle and taile of his sentence whereby considering the occasion and purpose of his wordes we might sée that they shoulde not be wrested from his meaning Chrysostome vpon these wordes of the Prophet Esay Factum est anno quo mortuâ—…s est Ozias rex It came to passe in the yere that king Ozias died after a Preface made of Priestes mariage taking occasion of the Prophet Esays wife telleth of Ozias presumption Uerum hic Ozias c. but this Ozias when he was a crowned King bicause he was iust waxed hawtie in minde and conceyuing a greater courage than was for his estate entred into the temple And what sayth Esay He entred into the holy of holies and sayde I will offer incense He being a King vsurpeth the principalitie of the priesthood I will sayth he offer incense bicause I am iust But abide within thy bounds And so Chrysostome procéedeth in the sentence cited by you Alij sunt termini The boundes of a kingdome of a priesthood are not al one c. Which sentence ye truly cite til ye come to these wordes VVhen I say to me I vnderstand a priest And there ye strike of mâ—… words of Chrysostam than ye cited Which belike ye do for two purposes Partly for that ye could not abide to heare of any vices or discommendation in priests therfore ye cull out only that which soundeth to their praise dignitie Partly for that this would haue made the purpose of Chrysost playner reprouing them that disâ—…erne not betwene the office the persoÌ„ At which fault your self so late did stuÌ„ble in princes not discerning between Neroes vices a princes office As in Chrysostoms time same despised the office of a priest bicause of the faults of diuerse priests The wordes of Chrysostome folowing those you cite are these Therefore when thou seest an vnworthie priest slaunder not the priesthod For thou oughtest not to coÌ„demne the things but him that euill vseth a good thing Syth Iudas also was a traytor howbeit for this the order Apostolical is not accused but the mind of him Neither is it the fault of the priesthood but of the euill mind And thou therfore blame not the priesthod but the priest that vseth euill a good thing For if one dispute with thee and say seest thou yonder Christianâ—… answere thou but I speak not to thee of the persons but of the things or else how many phisitions haue bene made slaughtermen haue giuen poisons for remedies And yet I dispise not the arte but him that euill vseth the arte How many shipmeÌ„ haue guided euill their ships yet is not the arte of sayling euill but the mind of them If the Christian man be wicked accuse not thou the profession the priesthood but him that euill vseth a good thing These are Chrysostomes wordes which you omit and then followeth as you recite Regâ—… corpora c. The bodies are coÌ„mitted to the king and so forth as ye say til ye come to the knitting vp of the sentence with Ozias which again you omit VeruÌ„ rex c. But that king going beyond his bounds and passing the measure of the kingdom atteÌ„pted to adde somwhat more and entred into the temple willing with authoritie to offer incense VVhat therfore sayth the priest It is not lawfull for thee Ozias to offer incense Behold libertie behold a mind that knoweth not boÌ„dage behold a tong touching the heauens behold liberty that cannot be restrained behold the body of a maÌ„ the mind of an angel behold one that goeth on the grouÌ„d is coÌ„uersant in heaueÌ„ Thou sawest a king thou sawest not a diademe Tel not me it is a kingdom where is the transgression of lawes It is not lawful for thee O king to offer inceÌ„se It is not lawful for thee to come into the holy of holies Thou passest thy bouÌ„ds thou sekest things not grauÌ„ted to thee therfore shalt leese the things thou hast receiued It is not lawful for thee to offer inceÌ„se but this is giuen vnto the priests This is not thine but this is mine haue I vsurped on me thy purple vsurpe not thou my priesthod It is not lawful for thee to offer inceÌ„sâ—… but only for the sons of AaroÌ„ By this it plainly appeareth wherevpon Chrysost. speaketh to wete of the seuerall functions of the spirituall pastor and the prince and that it is not lawfull for the prince to intrude himself into the office of the diuine minister He may not more take vpoÌ„ him to administer the diuine sacraments of christ his church now although he be the prince to the which not with standing you admitted womeÌ„ thaÌ„ might Ozias sacrifice then For as then God had appoynted who should sacrifice so hath he apointed who should now minister his sacrameÌ„ts Now if ye had shewed that the supreme gouernment ouer ecclesiasticall causes the ouersight and direction of the setting forth of Gods true religion the abolishing of false religion and the deposing of Idolatrous Priestes that obsâ—…inately mainteyne errours agaynst the expresse worde of God be the like doing to this fact of Ozias if ye had proued that the Prince hath euer done or doth or claymeth to do the like fact to this of Ozias in ministring the sacrament then had you alleaged this sentence to some purpose else maketh it nothing to the purpose but maketh agaynst your popish mid wiues they rather play the part of Ozias It maketh not agaynst the Q. Maiestie but most of all against your Pope himselfe that thinketh he playth the high priests part and is so farre therfrom that none is more like than he to this vsurper entring into the holyest place and vsurping the priesthood the sacrifice the power and the honour that belongeth onely to Iesus Christe himselfe As for the office of the true minister of God which neyther your Pope nor you his shaâ—…elings arâ—… is in déede as Chrysostom sayth both a distinct function from the princes and hath other boundes and also we graunt surmounteth farre the boundes of the Princes office in respect of his spirituall ministerie of administring the sacraments of preaching the glad tydings of saluation of denouncing to the obstinate sinners the threates of Gods wrath and vengeance to the penitent the most comfortable promises of Gods mercie fauour whose sentence being rightly applyed in earth God hath promised to ratifie the same in heauen And for this cause doth Chrysost â–ª so highly extoll this priesthood referring all his prayses to the dignitie of his ministerie in respect whereof the Princes ministeris is but outwarde and earthly medling nothing with the administration of this high function but onely with the