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A93885 Some observations and annotations upon the Apologeticall narration, humbly submitted to the Honourable Houses of Parliament; the most reverend and learned Divines of the Assembly, and all the Protestant Churches here in this island, and abroad. Steuart, Adam. 1644 (1644) Wing S5492; Thomason E34_23; ESTC R21620 55,133 77

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2.11 1 Tim. 1.2 Tit. 1.4 Phil 2.10 1 Ioh. 2.1.28 and 3.7 and 4.4 The Ministers and the Elders are not onely our Brethren but also our Fathers Ergo they must as well use paternall authority over us as brotherly charity towards us 4. So also combined Presbyteries or as it were Fathers of simple Presbyteries because of their greater power to judge 5. The like of this Government hath never been heard of in the world neither in State nor Common-wealth before and therefore seemeth it to us to be repugnant unto the Law of Nature for what else is the Law of Nature but the common consent of all men How absurd therefore is that Government so destitute of all authority have the sheep as great authoirty as the Sheepherd if so it is as good to be a sheep as a Sheepherd 6. If an Authoritative power cannot hold in the Church or among Churches because that we are all Brethren and Sisters no more can it hold in the State betwixt King and Subject the father and the son the master and the servant for we are all Brethren in Christ so this Foundation or Ground-work will destroy all sort of Politicall and Domesticall Authority Our Brethren would do well also to consider whether their Grounds or those of our Government will better consist with the Authority of the civill Magistrate for according to this reason a King in a State should have no power at all over his Brother 7. In the State there be divers Judicatories Superiour and Inferiour wherein the Superiour hath an authoritative power over the inferiour Ergo in the Church since there is the same reason for both viz. reparation of the offence taken at inferiour Judicatories But because ye will seem to be much addicted to the civill Magistrate as if your Ecclesiasticall Government were altogether subordinate unto his power and blame us as not giving him his due which ye note by a particular Parenthesis as if ye would have us to take particular notice of it Therefore before we end this Section we shall be very willing to do it In saying that the Presbyteriall Excommunication is no more effectuall then your Sentence of non-Communion without the Magistrates Power ye adde this Parenthesis To which we give as much and as we think more then the Principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld By whose counsell or for what end this Parenthesis is inserted and such a comparison made I know not If ye have no Politicall ayms I am assured ye comply very much with Policy If ye grant him so much ye would do well to declare how much and wherein and not to feed him with generalities and Platonicall Idees as abstract here from all matter as ye professed formerly your Church-Government was abstracted from all other Governments It is a Maxime in Philosophy and in Rhetorick both That Sermones generales non movent and praised be God that the King and Parliament are wise and will not feed upon so abstract forms As for us since ye keep your selves upon such generalities it is impossible to us to answer any thing in particular unlesse we guesse at your meaning In generall therefore we say 1. That amongst men well bred all comparisons are odious 2. That either ye give unto the civill Magistrate onely his due or something more if onely his due ye lay a very heavie aspersion upon all Presbyterians as if they were not good Subjects in denying him a part of his due If more who gave you the power to do so 3. Either ye grant him more in Civill or in Spirituall matters In Civill matters ye cannot for ye can grant him no more then he hath by the Laws of the Land whereunto we are all equally subject and therefore must grant him as much one as another If in Spirituall matters we grant him his externall power as we declared in the beginning And for intrinsecall Spirituall power 1. It is not in your power to grant him any at all neither can ye give him more Spirituall obedience then Scripture permitteth you or give him a part of the Spirituall power that ye have received of God for that were to lay upon another the burden that God hath laid upon you and so serve God by a Proctor 2. It is onely in God who is King in this Spirituall Kingdom Master in this House and a Father in this Family who can give power therein to any man we dare not be so bold If ye pretend to do it I say with the Comick Poet de te largitor puer be liberall upon your own purse 4 If ye will do so look how Authoritative is your power who take Authority over Gods Ordinance and dispose of it as if it were your own so do not the Presbyterians 5. The Civill Magistrate acknowledgeth himself to be a Politicall and no Ecclesiasticall person since he is neither Pastor nor Doctor nor Ruling Elder in Christs Church and therefore arrogateth no Spirituall Authority to himself 6. We desire to know of you Brethren what ye understand here by the Magistrate Whether the Supreme or Subaltern If the Supreme whether the King or Parliament and principally at this time If the Subaltern we ask of you Whether every Justice of Peace shall or can judge of all Ecclesiasticall matters And if he cannot whether he can be a competent Judge 7. What if the Civill Magistrate be a Papist what if some of the Kings Councell be Papists or Heterodox as some in the beginning of this Parliament were will ye grant that they judge in matters of Religion So the Turk the Antichrist and Pagans shall judge in matters of Religion amongst their Protestant Subjects If so our Protestants in France in Polonia and otherwhere are in a very fair way Its pity but such a Maxime should have been published in Queen Maries time and at Saint Bartholomews day in France at that Butchery or Massacre of Protestants 8. The Apostle 1 Cor. 6. findes fault with the Christians that did plead before Infidels in civill matters what then would he not have said if godly men would have pleaded before them and submitted matters of Religion unto their judgement 9. This power that ye grant to the Magistrate is either Internall or Externall in regard of the Church If Externall we grant it as well as ye If Internall then he must be an Ecclesiasticall Person And then 10. It should follow That a Soveraign Prince should as well be Soveraign in the Church as in the State and so Internall head of both which is derogatory to Christs Royaltie as our Doctors have sundry times cleerly demonstrated it against the Jesuites and other Papists 11. Women that are commanded to be silent in the Church should rule it and command men in it since they may be Soveraign Princes in it and over it and so Leglise tomberoit on quenvillo And if it be replyed wherefore may they not as well rule the Church as the
1. Because ye found the spirits of the people of this Kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse ready to take any impressions and to be cast in any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way 2. Because that the mists gathered about you begun to scatter 3. Because ye published not your opinions by Preaching although ye had the Pulpits free nor in Print although the Presses were more free then the Pulpits Answ Your Partie will deny the Assumption for if ye and the rest of your Partie made it not up how is it made up in this Kingdom As for the proof of your Provocations We have answered already to the first The third and fourth we allow it not if any man hath done so To the second we shall answer hereafter And as for the fifth good Sheepherds could not without an abominable prevarication but write against yours and all other mens Innovations when they saw so many Sects multiplied and Woolfs creeping in so fast into Christs Sheep-fold to devour the flock 2. If ye blame our faithfull Ministers for maintaining the Truth already received what shall we say of your folks who have first published Books against the Truth 3. What shall we say of those of your Colleagues who heretofore preached your Tenets with great offence here in publike And who still run busily up and down to make Proselytes To the second proof your Assumption 1. We have already answered that it is made but how we know not 2. What were those people that professe and pretend to any power of godlinesse so ready to take any impression and to make a Partie ye tell not We wish to know whether they be Brownists Anabaptists or of what other Sect 3. Your Covenant obligeth you to declare it unto the Parliament however ye reveal it not unto us 4. Certainly true Professors of godlinesse are not so susceptible of any impressions much lesse to become factious 5. And therefore ye adde well or pretend for such men pretend onely to godlinesse but have renounced in effect the power thereof Here we see howsoever ye pretend not to be States-men yet ye know as much of it as the Presbyterians Your second occasion was the dissipations of mists c. If so and onely so then what needed this Apologeticall Narration § 25. Pag. 25. To the third occasion whether ye had the Pulpits so free or feared to have them lesse free afterwards I dispute not ye know that well enough Onely this I know That some of your Brethren having given themselves libertie to speak somewhat freely in favour of your opinions were afterwards discountenanced and became more prudent and circumspect in venting of themselves If ye printed not your opinions it may be ye deal more prudently in teaching them in private then in publishing them in Print And here ye shew how your Charitie is grown cold for in the beginning when so many mists were gathered about you for fear of Schisme out of meet Charitie ye abstained from writing and now when they are scattered ye write Your third Grievance is the reproach of that proud and insolent title of Independency Answ Ye decline that proud Title but will no wayes quit the thing signified by the Title in that ye maintain the Independency of every one of your Churches from all Ecclesiasticall Authoritie or Authoritative Power of any Ecclesiasticall Assembly yea some of your Profession say That it belongs not to the Magistrate to punish any man for his Religion be it never so odious and wicked as we have heard from their own mouths So that there is another new Independency If it be replied here That I did prove before that ye acknowledge some Ecclesiasticall Authoritie whereunto your particular Churches are subject I answer It is but by necessary consequence that they must hold it and not interminis or expresly that they beleeve it for they deny interminis what they must grant by consequence It is drawn out of the evasions that they bring against our Reasons whereby whilest they seek to escape they are catcht Pag. 4. Your fourth Grievance whereof ye complain and bewall your selves is Brownisme together with all their Opinions wherewith ye are traduced Answ But ye disclaim not Brownisme and their Opinions absolutely but with a restriction and secundum quid viz. As they have stated and maintained them 2. By another limitation viz. That ye differ much from them not in re sed in modo rei It may be ye hold and maintain the same opinions but not the same way And yet ye sympathize very much with them in puining untoward names upon us but not upon them There also ye declare what ye confesse and beleeve viz. The trueth to lye in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government Answ But this is nothing but your errour Veritie consisteth not in the middle of this or that which ye imagine but in a conformitie of our conceptions with their object and due measure which in this matter is onely Gods Word revealed in the holy Scriptures and according to this rule I take Presbyterian Government rather to be the middle betwixt Popish Tyranny and Independent Anarchy § 25. Pag. 25. Your fifth Grievance is Some incitements to this State not to allow us say ye the peaceable practises of our Consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us Answ If any man incited the State not to allow you a peaceable practise of your new Religion they did according to their conscience as your New-England men do with those of our Religion and as some say that some of you five would do with us Their Reasons might have been these 1. Because it cannot but open a door to all sorts of erroneous Opinions 2. It is dangerous for the State it may breed factions and divisions betwixt all persons of whatsoever relation betwixt the Magistrate and the Subject the Husband and the Wife the Father and the Son Brethren Sisters the Master and the Servant when the one is of one Religion or Ecclesiasticall Government and the other of another as ye have experimented The Son may refuse to receive any communion with the Father and the Brother with the Brother and so dissolve all naturall civill and domesticall bands of Societie 3. No State in Christendome where there is one onely Religion established will admit the publike exercise of any other or endure a Schisme in that which is already received Wherefore then should it be done here 4. If it be granted to our Brethren I cannot see how it can well be denyed to other Sects If it be said That other Sects differ more from us then they do it is all one Magis minus non mutant Speciem in matter of Toleration for then all must be tolerated howsoever some more some lesse And some of our Brethren grant all the Argument And if we distinguish so ye must declare and expound cleerly what Sects and