Selected quad for the lemma: master_n

Word A Word B Word C Word D Occurrence Frequency Band MI MI Band Prominent
master_n bone_n grant_v rogers_n 336 4 16.2903 5 false
View all documents for the selected quad

Text snippets containing the quad

ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A10908 The Protestant Church existent, and their faith professed in all ages, and by whom with a catalogue of councels in all ages, who professed the same. Written, by Henry Rogers D.D. prebendary of Hereford. Rogers, Henry, ca. 1585-1658. 1638 (1638) STC 21178; ESTC S116092 131,830 215

There are 20 snippets containing the selected quad. | View original text

if_o there_o can_v as_o there_o can_v be_v find_v in_o history_n name_n of_o protestant_a preacher_n who_o in_o all_o age_n do_v teach_v all_o sort_n of_o faithful_a people_n and_o who_o convert_v several_a nation_n unto_o the_o christian_a faith_n hence_o follow_v i_o say_v that_o protestant_n be_v not_o the_o true_a visible_a church_n of_o christ_n neither_o be_v their_o preacher_n lawful_o send_v or_o sufficient_o authorise_v to_o teach_v nor_o people_n secure_o warrant_v to_o learn_v of_o they_o that_o one_o infallible_a faith_n without_o which_o none_o can_v please_v god_n nor_o if_o they_o so_o live_v and_o die_v be_v save_v rogers_n here_o say_v you_o be_v a_o true_a copy_n of_o master_n fisher_n five_o proposition_n as_o if_o my_o copy_n be_v not_o true_a my_o answer_n be_v print_v without_o my_o knowledge_n yet_o the_o proposition_n of_o mr._n fisher_n print_v be_v agree_v unto_o these_o copy_n which_o i_o receive_v and_o there_o be_v nothing_o more_o in_o this_o your_o second_o edition_n than_o be_v in_o those_o allege_v by_o i_o save_v these_o few_o word_n in_o history_n as_o the_o name_n of_o those_o be_v find_v which_o make_v no_o sentence_n nor_o fill_v up_o one_o poor_a little_a line_n and_o if_o they_o strengthen_v your_o cause_n any_o thing_n the_o more_o let_v they_o come_v in_o and_o do_v you_o urge_v they_o roger_n in_o his_o 1._o answer_n the_o 3._o first_o proposition_n i_o admit_v 1._o that_o there_o be_v one_o faith_n 2._o that_o the_o ordinary_a propagation_n of_o this_o faith_n be_v by_o pastor_n lawful_o call_v 3._o that_o there_o have_v be_v and_o must_v be_v in_o all_o age_n such_o pastor_n so_o call_v 4._o i_o will_v glad_o know_v what_o they_o mean_v by_o those_o word_n if_o the_o protestant_n be_v the_o true_a visible_a church_n whether_o so_o as_o if_o we_o alone_o who_o be_v call_v protestant_n be_v of_o the_o church_n and_o not_o other_o we_o have_v such_o enclose_v of_o commons_o to_o the_o romanist_n we_o challenge_v it_o not_o we_o be_v a_o true_a church_n not_o the_o true_a church_n we_o be_v a_o part_n not_o the_o whole_a we_o include_v ourselves_o we_o exclude_v not_o other_o whether_o grecian_n armenian_n aethiopian_n spaniard_n or_o italian_n etc._n etc._n so_o they_o deny_v no_o fundamental_a part_n of_o the_o faith_n either_o direct_o or_o by_o consequence_n a_o examination_n of_o master_n roger_n answer_n to_o the_o five_o proposition_n aforesaid_a i_o find_v first_o that_o he_o grant_v the_o first_o three_o without_o any_o exception_n which_o i_o desire_v may_v be_v diligent_o note_v and_o well_o ponder_v for_o out_o of_o these_o three_o ground_n to_o wit_n first_o that_o there_o be_v one_o and_o but_o one_o faith_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n and_o second_o that_o this_o faith_n according_a to_o the_o ordinary_a course_n of_o god_n providence_n can_v be_v have_v otherwise_o then_o by_o hear_v the_o preach_n or_o teach_v of_o lawful_o send_v pastor_n and_o three_o that_o this_o faith_n have_v be_v in_o all_o age_n past_a as_o appear_v by_o history_n teach_v by_o pastor_n of_o the_o true_a visible_a church_n who_o only_o be_v lawful_o send_v out_o of_o these_o 3._o ground_n i_o say_v evident_o follow_v that_o which_o be_v master_n fisher_n four_o proposition_n to_o wit_n if_o protestant_a faith_n be_v the_o true_a faith_n and_o their_o church_n the_o true_a church_n or_o as_o master_n rogers_n have_v rather_o say_v a_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n than_o their_o protestant_a faith_n differ_v from_o the_o roman_a faith_n have_v be_v teach_v in_o all_o age_n by_o lawful_o send_v visible_a protestant_a pastor_n who_o name_n may_v be_v find_v in_o history_n as_o name_n of_o other_o be_v find_v who_o do_v teach_v the_o true_a faith_n of_o christ_n in_o all_o age_n this_o to_o follow_v out_o of_o the_o aforesaid_a three_o ground_n be_v as_o i_o say_v most_o evident_a false_a nego_fw-la it_o be_v false_a neither_o do_v master_n rogers_n make_v any_o bone_n to_o grant_v save_v only_o that_o it_o may_v be_v he_o will_v make_v a_o bog_n at_o the_o word_n history_n as_o not_o find_v it_o in_o his_o copy_n nor_o think_v it_o perhaps_o necessary_a that_o the_o name_n of_o protestant_a pastor_n who_o teach_v the_o protestant_a faith_n in_o all_o age_n past_o be_v find_v in_o history_n but_o understand_v the_o word_n history_n as_o master_n fisher_n understand_v it_o to_o wit_n for_o some_o or_o other_o kind_n of_o record_n or_o monument_n as_o doct._n white_n also_o understand_v it_o when_o he_o say_v thing_n pass_v can_v be_v show_v but_o by_o history_n i_o do_v not_o see_v why_o mr._n rogers_n may_v not_o absolute_o grant_v the_o four_o proposition_n even_o as_o it_o be_v set_v down_o by_o master_n fisher_n himself_o for_o if_o any_o visible_a protestant_a pastor_n be_v in_o all_o age_n teach_v especial_o any_o such_o protestant_n doctrine_n as_o now_o be_v teach_v they_o will_v have_v be_v name_v and_o speak_v of_o some_o roger_n all_o or_o some_o and_o write_v of_o aswell_o as_o other_o be_v who_o have_v in_o all_o age_n pass_v teach_v all_o sort_n of_o true_a and_o false_a doctrine_n in_o regard_n there_o can_v be_v assign_v any_o reason_n either_o of_o the_o part_n of_o god_n providence_n or_o humane_a diligence_n why_o the_o name_n of_o other_o even_o false_a teacher_n in_o all_o age_n shall_v be_v set_v down_o and_o preserve_v in_o history_n yet_o extant_a rather_o than_o the_o name_n of_o such_o as_o protestant_n deem_v to_o be_v the_o only_a true_a teacher_n of_o pure_a doctrine_n for_o doubtless_o both_o god_n who_o be_v zealous_a of_o his_o honour_n and_o careful_a to_o honour_n and_o preserve_v the_o memory_n of_o they_o that_o will_v honour_v he_o will_v for_o his_o honour_n sake_n have_v procure_v honourable_a memory_n of_o such_o as_o do_v by_o teach_v truth_n honour_v he_o and_o man_n careful_a of_o their_o soul_n health_n which_o they_o can_v attain_v according_a to_o the_o ordinary_a course_n but_o by_o hear_v such_o pastor_n only_o who_o have_v lawful_a succession_n from_o christ_n apostle_n have_v reason_n diligent_o to_o look_v that_o memory_n be_v preserve_v of_o such_o pastor_n and_o of_o pure_a divine_a truth_n teach_v by_o they_o then_o of_o other_o who_o teach_v any_o other_o false_a and_o not_o pure_a doctrine_n certain_a therefore_o it_o be_v that_o the_o name_n or_o some_o thing_n equivalent_a to_o name_n and_o the_o doctrine_n of_o true_a pastor_n who_o do_v in_o all_o age_n past_a teach_v true_a divine_a doctrine_n may_v be_v find_v in_o history_n as_o well_o as_o the_o name_n and_o doctrine_n of_o other_o be_v find_v who_o do_v teach_v any_o other_o doctrine_n and_o therefore_o if_o protestant_n have_v have_v any_o pastor_n teach_v true_a doctrine_n in_o all_o age_n doubtless_o their_o name_n will_v be_v extant_a in_o history_n yet_o extant_a which_o be_v presuppose_v and_o grant_v as_o master_n rogers_n seem_v to_o grant_v by_o grant_v master_n fisher_n 4_o proposition_n i_o do_v not_o see_v how_o master_n rogers_n can_v deny_v master_n fisher_n first_o proposition_n for_o it_o be_v suppose_v that_o the_o protestant_a preacher_n be_v their_o name_n will_v be_v find_v in_o history_n as_o master_n fisher_n four_o proposition_n grant_v by_o master_n rogers_n suppose_v it_o may_v be_v well_o infer_v that_o if_o no_o such_o man_n name_n be_v find_v in_o history_n than_o no_o such_o man_n be_v in_o all_o age_n nor_o consequent_o be_v protestant_n the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n for_o it_o have_v have_v such_o in_o all_o age_n i_o do_v not_o therefore_o see_v i_o say_v how_o mr._n rogers_n can_v deny_v mr._n fisher_n his_o first_o proposition_n suppose_v he_o grant_v as_o he_o grant_v his_o four_o proposition_n for_o although_o absolute_o speak_v a_o argument_n draw_v from_o negative_a authority_n be_v as_o master_n rogers_n aver_v of_o itself_o of_o no_o force_n and_o so_o protestant_n argument_n which_o be_v usual_o make_v against_o we_o out_o of_o negative_a authority_n rogers_n here_o master_n fisher_n i_o must_v request_v you_o and_o the_o reader_n whosoever_o he_o be_v to_o look_v back_o upon_o the_o title_n of_o the_o two_o last_o page_n which_o be_v master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a ground_n then_o read_v diligent_o all_o that_o be_v there_o write_v and_o see_v if_o there_o be_v any_o mention_n any_o one_o sentence_n any_o one_o word_n of_o any_o of_o my_o ground_n all_o that_o be_v here_o speak_v be_v in_o defence_n of_o master_n fisher_n own_o ground_n viz._n of_o his_o 4._o and_o 5_o proposition_n which_o in_o that_o sense_n that_o you_o enforce_v they_o be_v most_o weak_a and_o more_o weak_o maintain_v and_o therefore_o the_o title_n shall_v have_v be_v thus_o master_n fisher_n his_o most_o weak_a ground_n that_o they_o be_v most_o weak_a
ground_n you_o say_v true_o that_o they_o be_v your_o ground_n they_o manifest_v of_o themselves_o be_v your_o four_o and_o five_o proposition_n fisher_n i_o find_v first_o that_o he_o grant_v the_o first_o three_o without_o any_o exception_n which_o i_o desire_v may_v be_v diligent_o note_v and_o well_o ponder_v rogers_n how_o i_o admit_v they_o appear_v by_o my_o answer_n i_o deliver_v they_o more_o brief_o and_o more_o perspicuous_o than_o you_o do_v thus_o and_o in_o this_o sense_n the_o three_o first_o proposition_n i_o admit_v 1._o that_o there_o be_v one_o faith_n 2._o the_o ordinary_a propagation_n of_o this_o faith_n be_v by_o pastor_n lawful_o call_v 3._o that_o there_o have_v be_v and_o must_v be_v in_o all_o age_n pastor_n so_o lawful_o call_v this_o i_o conceive_v to_o be_v the_o meaning_n of_o your_o three_o first_o proposition_n without_o any_o diminution_n neither_o do_v you_o except_v against_o it_o as_o for_o your_o parenthesis_n viz._n as_o appear_v by_o history_n that_o be_v no_o part_n of_o the_o proposition_n for_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d that_o be_v one_o proposition_n which_o declare_v one_o thing_n or_o who_o part_n be_v join_v together_o and_o make_v one_o by_o conjunction_n this_o your_o parenthesis_n be_v no_o part_n of_o the_o proposition_n nor_o make_v one_o with_o it_o by_o conjunction_n fisher_n for_o out_o of_o these_o three_o ground_n to_o wit_n first_o that_o there_o be_v one_o and_o but_o one_o faith_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n second_o etc._n etc._n evident_o follow_v that_o which_o be_v master_n fisher_n four_o proposition_n to_o wit_n if_o protestant_a faith_n be_v the_o true_a faith_n and_o their_o church_n the_o true_a church_n or_o as_o master_n rogers_n have_v rather_o say_v a_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n than_o their_o protestant_a faith_n differ_v from_o the_o roman_a faith_n have_v be_v teach_v in_o all_o age_n by_o lawful_o send_v visible_a protestant_a pastor_n who_o name_n may_v be_v find_v in_o history_n as_o name_n of_o other_o be_v find_v who_o do_v teach_v the_o true_a faith_n of_o christ_n in_o all_o age_n rogers_n if_o it_o do_v evident_o follow_v frame_v your_o argument_n make_v your_o syllogism_n infer_v your_o conclusion_n i_o see_v not_o the_o evidence_n make_v it_o clear_a unto_o i_o one_o short_a syllogism_n will_v make_v i_o confess_v that_o which_o you_o endeavour_v to_o prove_v in_o three_o page_n but_o prove_v not_o at_o all_o only_o you_o make_v one_o fallacy_n call_v petitio_fw-la principij_fw-la and_o falsify_v my_o word_n more_o than_o once_o i_o will_v begin_v with_o your_o falsification_n fisher_n neither_o do_v master_n rogers_n make_v any_o bone_n to_o grant_v rogers_n this_o be_v your_o first_o falsification_n that_o i_o make_v no_o bone_n to_o grant_v your_o four_o proposition_n what_o i_o grant_v in_o your_o four_o proposition_n be_v this_o first_o after_o the_o rule_n of_o art_n the_o practice_n of_o all_o learned_a man_n in_o all_o profession_n and_o the_o only_a way_n to_o wave_v contention_n about_o word_n and_o come_v to_o reality_n find_v a_o ambiguous_a phrase_n in_o that_o proposition_n i_o thus_o write_v i_o will_v glad_o know_v what_o they_o mean_v by_o those_o word_n if_o the_o protestant_n be_v the_o true_a visible_a church_n whether_o so_o as_o if_o we_o alone_o who_o be_v call_v protestant_n be_v of_o the_o church_n and_o not_o other_o we_o leave_v such_o enclose_v of_o commons_o to_o the_o romanist_n we_o challenge_v it_o not_o we_o be_v a_o true_a church_n not_o the_o true_a church_n we_o be_v a_o part_n not_o the_o whole_a we_o include_v ourselves_o we_o exclude_v not_o other_o whether_o grecian_n armenian_n aethiopian_n spaniard_n or_o italian_n etc._n etc._n so_o they_o deny_v no_o fundamental_a part_n of_o the_o faith_n either_o direct_o or_o by_o consequence_n what_o reply_v have_v you_o make_v to_o this_o have_v you_o unfold_v your_o meaning_n have_v you_o expound_v this_o dark_a phrase_n have_v you_o as_o much_o as_o prove_v or_o disprove_v my_o distinction_n or_o tell_v the_o reader_n in_o which_o sense_n you_o take_v it_o be_v you_o such_o a_o friend_n to_o amphibology_n doubtful_a phrase_n and_o aequivocate_a term_n that_o be_v request_v to_o open_v yourself_o you_o will_v not_o explain_v your_o word_n your_o proposition_n and_o ground_n or_o principle_n to_o infer_v other_o conclusion_n such_o obscure_a phrase_n of_o double_a signification_n can_v make_v no_o argument_n but_o a_o fallacy_n which_o seem_v to_o be_v a_o argument_n but_o be_v none_o they_o can_v be_v proposition_n which_o will_v not_o admit_v of_o one_o ambiguous_a term_n one_o ambiguous_a simple_a word_n the_o only_a way_n to_o avoid_v this_o be_v by_o distinction_n this_o distinction_n i_o bring_v which_o you_o can_v deny_v the_o thing_n itself_o be_v so_o clear_a that_o there_o be_v difference_n between_o a_o part_n and_o the_o whole_a between_o a_o part_n of_o a_o city_n and_o a_o whole_a city_n between_o a_o part_n of_o a_o kingdom_n and_o a_o whole_a kingdom_n between_o a_o part_n of_o the_o church_n and_o the_o whole_a church_n he_o that_o say_v i_o be_o a_o citizen_n of_o london_n be_v make_v free_a wrong_v no_o man_n but_o he_o that_o say_v i_o be_o the_o only_a citizen_n and_o there_o be_v no_o other_o speak_v false_o and_o wrong_v all_o other_o citizen_n of_o that_o society_n he_o that_o say_v middlesex_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o kingdom_n of_o england_n speak_v true_o and_o wrong_v no_o man_n but_o he_o that_o say_v middlesex_n be_v the_o kingdom_n of_o england_n as_o if_o there_o be_v no_o other_o shire_n nor_o province_n belong_v unto_o england_n speak_v false_o and_o be_v no_o less_o than_o a_o traitor_n to_o the_o king_n and_o he_o that_o say_v the_o protestant_n be_v a_o church_n speak_v true_o and_o wrong_v no_o man_n because_o he_o exclude_v no_o other_o christian_a church_n but_o he_o that_o say_v the_o protestant_n be_v the_o church_n as_o you_o say_v of_o the_o roman_a exclude_v all_o other_o speak_v false_o and_o wrong_v all_o other_o christian_a church_n of_o the_o world_n as_o the_o donatist_n do_v which_o s._n augustin_n esteem_v ibid._n esteem_v quid_fw-la hac_fw-la stultitia_fw-la imò_fw-la verò_fw-la dementia_fw-la reperitur_fw-la insanius_fw-la lib._n 1._o cont_n ep_v parm._n credunt_fw-la ex_fw-la partibus_fw-la terrarum_fw-la periisse_fw-la abrahae_fw-la semen_fw-mi quod_fw-la est_fw-la christus_fw-la de_n vestro_fw-la ista_fw-la dicitis_fw-la quia_fw-la qui_fw-la loquor_fw-la mendacium_fw-la de_fw-la svo_fw-la loquor_fw-la creditur_fw-la eye_n de_fw-la orbe_fw-la terrarum_fw-la quem_fw-la possidere_fw-la jam_fw-la coperat_fw-la periisse_fw-la christus_fw-la et_fw-la quia_fw-la hoc_fw-la credunt_fw-la cum_fw-la impudenter_fw-la dicant_fw-la christiani_n sumus_fw-la audent_fw-la dicere_fw-la nos_fw-la soli_fw-la sumus_fw-la ibid._n folly_n and_o madness_n they_o believe_v that_o christ_n be_v lose_v in_o all_o other_o part_n of_o the_o world_n this_o you_o speak_v of_o yourselves_o because_o he_o that_o tell_v a_o lie_n speak_v of_o himself_o you_o dare_v say_v with_o the_o donatist_n we_o alone_o be_v the_o church_n yet_o christ_n do_v not_o say_v rome_n be_v the_o field_n but_o the_o world_n be_v the_o field_n that_o seed_n of_o the_o gospel_n be_v sow_v through_o the_o world_n we_o dare_v not_o therefore_o say_v as_o you_o do_v we_o be_v the_o church_n we_o be_v the_o only_a christian_n for_o this_o be_v a_o lie_n folly_n and_o madness_n as_o saint_n augustine_n term_v it_o and_o yet_o as_o if_o there_o be_v no_o difference_n you_o can_v pass_v this_o over_o with_o say_v the_o true_a church_n or_o a_o true_a church_n as_o master_n rogers_n have_v rather_o say_v i_o have_v rather_o say_v so_o indeed_o because_o this_o be_v true_a the_o other_o which_o you_o say_v be_v false_a this_o be_v humility_n that_o be_v pride_n this_o be_v charitable_a that_o be_v uncharitable_a as_o the_o devil_n this_o be_v injurious_a unto_o none_o that_o to_o thousand_o of_o thousand_o million_o of_o million_o shut_v they_o out_o of_o heaven_n who_o believe_v in_o christ_n be_v baptize_v into_o christ_n and_o suffer_v for_o christ_n second_o i_o observe_v many_o needless_a word_n in_o your_o proposition_n write_v thus_o i_o must_v desire_v the_o author_n not_o to_o affect_v obscurity_n nor_o to_o alter_v their_o word_n which_o may_v alter_v their_o meaning_n as_o in_o the_o four_o and_o five_o proposition_n they_o have_v with_o the_o multitude_n of_o needless_a word_n obscure_v the_o matter_n the_o four_o be_v brief_o and_o plain_o this_o if_o the_o protestant_n be_v a_o true_a church_n their_o faith_n have_v be_v teach_v in_o all_o age_n by_o lawful_a pastor_n this_o i_o grant_v and_o no_o more_o this_o be_v your_o first_o falsification_n as_o if_o i_o grant_v that_o which_o i_o express_o deny_v i_o deny_v that_o we_o be_v the_o christian_a church_n which_o your_o proposition_n lay_v down_o
as_o if_o it_o be_v our_o tenet_n and_o this_o must_v be_v our_o ground_n to_o infer_v that_o proposition_n this_o be_v your_o petitio_fw-la principii_fw-la you_o beg_v a_o principle_n which_o i_o will_v not_o grant_v you_o and_o so_o the_o building_n fall_v for_o want_n of_o a_o foundation_n your_o argument_n be_v thus_o major_n if_o protestant_n be_v the_o true_a visible_a church_n of_o god_n than_o all_o sort_n of_o man_n who_o in_o every_o age_n have_v the_o foresay_a infallible_a faith_n have_v learn_v it_o by_o hear_v protestant_n preacher_n who_o name_n may_v yet_o be_v find_v in_o history_n as_o the_o name_n of_o those_o be_v find_v who_o in_o every_o former_a age_n do_v teach_v and_o convert_v the_o people_n of_o several_a nation_n unto_o the_o faith_n of_o christ_n minor_n but_o the_o protestant_n be_v the_o true_a church_n ergo_fw-la all_o sort_n of_o man_n etc._n etc._n not_o to_o meddle_v with_o the_o sequel_n of_o your_o major_n which_o be_v false_a as_o i_o will_v show_v when_o i_o come_v to_o answer_v your_o reason_n for_o the_o same_o your_o minor_n be_v most_o false_a we_o always_o do_v and_o ever_o will_v deny_v it_o we_o be_v a_o true_a church_n not_o the_o true_a church_n a_o part_n not_o the_o whole_a etc._n etc._n whatsoever_o be_v in_o your_o proposition_n more_o than_o what_o i_o express_v for_o the_o sum_n thereof_o i_o grant_v not_o and_o therefore_o you_o have_v commit_v so_o many_o falsification_n as_o there_o be_v word_n in_o your_o proposition_n more_o than_o this_o if_o the_o protestant_n be_v a_o true_a church_n their_o faith_n have_v be_v teach_v in_o all_o age_n by_o lawful_a pastor_n i_o never_o grant_v that_o all_o sort_n of_o man_n in_o every_o age_n do_v learn_v their_o faith_n by_o hear_v protestant_n preacher_n i_o never_o grant_v that_o their_o name_n or_o the_o name_n of_o all_o other_o preacher_n be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o history_n yet_o you_o say_v i_o grant_v all_o this_o be_v there_o no_o truth_n no_o modesty_n no_o mean_a no_o measure_n of_o falsify_v be_v you_o not_o ashamed_a to_o write_v that_o a_o man_n grant_v that_o which_o he_o deny_v so_o full_o so_o frequent_o fisher_n only_o it_o may_v be_v he_o will_v make_v a_o bog_n at_o the_o word_n history_n as_o not_o find_v it_o in_o his_o copy_n not_o think_v it_o perhaps_o necessary_a that_o the_o name_n of_o protestant_a pastor_n who_o have_v teach_v the_o protestant_a faith_n in_o all_o age_n past_a be_v find_v in_o history_n rogers_n what_o you_o mean_v by_o bog_n i_o know_v not_o unless_o it_o be_v a_o hollow_a miry_a ground_n whereon_o a_o man_n can_v set_v no_o sure_a no_o firm_a foot_n but_o he_o that_o trust_v to_o a_o green_a surface_n shall_v walk_v thereon_o sink_v in_o and_o stick_v in_o the_o mire_n such_o indeed_o be_v humane_a history_n in_o matter_n of_o faith_n but_o why_o shall_v master_n rogers_n make_v the_o bog_n who_o prove_v his_o faith_n and_o his_o church_n by_o other_o argument_n and_o not_o by_o these_o who_o out_o of_o saint_n augustine_n have_v already_o protest_v against_o humane_a proof_n in_o so_o divine_a a_o question_n ecclesia_fw-la aug._n de_fw-fr veritate_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la quia_fw-la nolo_fw-la humanis_fw-la documentis_fw-la sed_fw-la divinis_fw-la oraculis_fw-la sanctam_fw-la ecclesiam_fw-la demonstrari_fw-la i_o will_v not_o have_v the_o church_n demonstrate_v by_o humane_a learning_n but_o by_o the_o oracle_n of_o god_n and_o with_o your_o school_n that_o nothing_o but_o divine_a authority_n 8._o th._n aquin._n 1._o quaest_n 1._o art_n 8._o neither_o humane_a reason_n nor_o authority_n of_o holy_a father_n be_v proper_a unto_o divinity_n or_o do_v proper_o demonstrate_v but_o you_o that_o shun_v the_o prove_v of_o your_o church_n of_o your_o faith_n by_o other_o course_n and_o fly_v only_o to_o history_n you_o make_v the_o bog_n and_o such_o a_o bog_n whereon_o you_o dare_v not_o walk_v without_o you_o fill_v it_o up_o with_o the_o rubbish_n of_o some_o other_o kind_n of_o record_n or_o monument_n if_o you_o mean_v by_o make_v a_o bog_n at_o the_o word_n history_n that_o i_o shall_v be_v afraid_a to_o admit_v the_o same_o now_o because_o it_o be_v not_o in_o my_o former_a copy_n you_o be_v deceive_v i_o fear_v it_o not_o let_v it_o come_v in_o though_o with_o a_o parenthesis_n and_o let_v history_n extend_v to_o record_n or_o monument_n so_o they_o be_v without_o exception_n i_o well_o receive_v they_o in_o their_o degree_n as_o a_o humane_a probable_a uncertain_a unnecessitate_v proof_n and_o yet_o such_o and_o so_o uncertain_a proof_n as_o it_o be_v if_o you_o can_v show_v i_o your_o now_o faith_n out_o of_o history_n for_o the_o first_o four_o hundred_o year_n which_o you_o yourselves_o do_v not_o accuse_v of_o error_n falsehood_n wilful_a deceit_n juggle_a partiality_n heresy_n i_o will_v be_v of_o your_o faith_n of_o your_o church_n fisher_n thing_n past_o can_v be_v show_v but_o by_o history_n rogers_n i_o have_v admit_v your_o extension_n of_o history_n to_o record_n and_o monument_n fisher_n i_o do_v not_o see_v why_o master_n rogers_n may_v not_o absolute_o grant_v the_o four_o proposition_n even_o as_o it_o be_v set_v down_o by_o master_n fisher_n himself_o rogers_n within_o twelve_o line_n before_o you_o say_v neither_o do_v master_n rogers_n make_v any_o bone_n to_o grant_v and_o here_o now_o you_o say_v i_o do_v not_o see_v why_o master_n rogers_n may_v not_o absolute_o grant_v it_o there_o you_o say_v i_o do_v grant_v it_o here_o you_o suppose_v i_o do_v not_o grant_v it_o you_o see_v no_o reason_n why_o i_o shall_v not_o grant_v if_o it_o be_v evident_a it_o have_v reason_n why_o it_o be_v evident_a and_o be_v your_o proposition_n you_o must_v show_v that_o reason_n and_o what_o your_o reason_n be_v and_o how_o propose_v let_v we_o see_v fisher_n for_o if_o any_o visible_a protestant_a pastor_n be_v in_o all_o age_n teach_v especial_o any_o such_o protestant_n doctrine_n as_o now_o be_v teach_v they_o will_v have_v be_v name_v and_o speak_v of_o and_o write_v of_o as_o well_o as_o other_o be_v who_o have_v in_o age_n past_o teach_v all_o sort_n of_o true_a and_o false_a doctrine_n rogers_n first_o you_o play_v the_o sophister_n in_o change_v your_o term_n in_o your_o three_o first_o proposition_n you_o speak_v of_o faith_n here_o you_o leave_v out_o faith_n and_o put_v in_o doctrine_n as_o if_o they_o be_v the_o same_o whereas_o you_o know_v that_o the_o ancient_a father_n and_o late_a writer_n of_o your_o side_n and_o we_o do_v confess_v that_o there_o be_v many_o doctrine_n in_o the_o church_n of_o different_a nature_n and_o necessity_n but_o let_v we_o see_v your_o proof_n other_o who_o have_v in_o all_o age_n pass_v teach_v all_o sort_n of_o true_a and_o false_a doctrine_n be_v name_v speak_v of_o and_o write_v in_o history_n ergo_fw-la the_o protestant_a pastor_n in_o age_n be_v name_v speak_v of_o etc._n etc._n first_o tell_v i_o whether_o your_o antecedent_n be_v universal_a or_o particular_a if_o particular_a you_o conclude_v nothing_o you_o know_v the_o old_a rule_n syllogizari_fw-la non_fw-la est_fw-la ex_fw-la particulari_fw-la or_o if_o you_o will_v have_v it_o in_o the_o word_n of_o aristotle_n the_o rule_n be_v this_o 19_o arist_n lib._n prior_n 1._o c._n 19_o if_o both_o premise_n be_v indefinite_a or_o in_o part_n it_o can_v be_v no_o syllogism_n and_o such_o be_v you_o namely_o a_o indefinite_a proposition_n which_o must_v be_v resolve_v either_o into_o universal_a or_o particular_a if_o you_o be_v universal_a thus_o all_o other_o who_o have_v in_o all_o age_n pass_v teach_v all_o sort_n of_o true_a and_o false_a doctrine_n be_v name_v in_o history_n i_o deny_v it_o it_o be_v relate_v by_o many_o historian_n that_o there_o be_v christian_a church_n in_o britain_n in_o the_o three_o four_o and_o five_o age._n but_o no_o man_n have_v put_v down_o all_o their_o name_n who_o be_v their_o bishop_n or_o inferior_a minister_n if_o you_o can_v do_v it_o show_v it_o i_o again_o the_o arrian_n be_v so_o many_o in_o the_o four_o age_n as_o that_o a_o father_n say_v miratus_fw-la est_fw-la mundus_fw-la se_fw-la subitò_fw-la factum_fw-la esse_fw-la arrianum_n the_o world_n wonder_v how_o it_o come_v on_o a_o sudden_a to_o be_v of_o the_o faith_n of_o arrius_n and_o can_v you_o master_n fisher_n show_v i_o the_o name_n of_o these_o arrian_n teacher_n i_o can_v be_v copious_a in_o allege_v divers_a false_a doctrine_n who_o first_o author_n be_v not_o name_v be_v not_o know_v much_o less_o all_o that_o teach_v the_o same_o so_o that_o if_o your_o proposition_n be_v universal_a it_o be_v false_a i_o deny_v your_o antecedent_n if_o particular_a thus_o some_o other_o who_o teach_v all_o sort_n of_o true_a and_o false_a doctrine_n be_v name_v in_o history_n
most_o uncertain_a that_o as_o well_o you_o may_v conclude_v that_o judas_n do_v not_o betray_v christ_n or_o peter_n deny_v christ_n fisher_n and_o therefore_o if_o protestant_n have_v have_v any_o pastor_n teach_v true_a doctrine_n in_o all_o age_n doubtless_o their_o name_n will_v be_v extant_a in_o history_n yet_o extant_a rogers_n i_o have_v already_o show_v your_o antecedent_n to_o be_v false_a if_o universal_a not_o to_o prove_v if_o particular_a and_o so_o this_o conclusion_n if_o particular_a i_o grant_v if_o universal_a i_o deny_v and_o say_v that_o a_o universal_a conclusion_n can_v follow_v out_o of_o particular_a premise_n you_o know_v the_o unquestioned_a rule_n conclusio_fw-la sequitur_fw-la deteriorem_fw-la partem_fw-la chap._n xii_o fisher_n which_o be_v presuppose_v and_o grant_v as_o master_n rogers_n seem_v to_o grant_v by_o grant_v master_n fisher_n four_o proposition_n i_o do_v not_o see_v how_o master_n rogers_n can_v deny_v master_n fisher_n five_o proposition_n rogers_n i_o neither_o suppose_v nor_o grant_v it_o what_o i_o grant_v in_o the_o four_o proposition_n be_v this_o and_o no_o more_o if_o the_o protestant_n be_v a_o true_a church_n their_o faith_n have_v be_v teach_v in_o all_o age_n by_o lawful_a pastor_n what_o mention_n be_v there_o here_o of_o name_n of_o history_n of_o record_n of_o monument_n let_v the_o reader_n look_v back_o to_o my_o former_a answer_n and_o he_o shall_v find_v that_o this_o be_v all_o the_o issue_n i_o join_v upon_o in_o the_o four_o proposition_n this_o be_v audacity_n master_n fisher_n fisher_n for_o it_o be_v suppose_v that_o protestant_a preacher_n be_v their_o name_n will_v be_v find_v in_o history_n as_o master_n fisher_n four_o proposition_n grant_v by_o master_n rogers_n suppose_v it_o may_v be_v well_o infer_v that_o if_o no_o such_o man_n name_n be_v find_v in_o history_n than_o no_o such_o man_n be_v in_o all_o age_n nor_o consequent_o be_v protestant_n the_o true_a church_n of_o christ_n for_o it_o have_v have_v such_o in_o all_o age_n i_o do_v not_o therefore_o see_v i_o say_v how_o master_n rogers_n can_v deny_v master_n fisher_n five_o proposition_n suppose_v he_o grant_v as_o he_o grant_v his_o four_o proposition_n rogers_n you_o say_v that_o i_o suppose_v and_o grant_v your_o four_o proposition_n i_o must_v yield_v unto_o the_o five_o i_o have_v reply_v more_o than_o once_o your_o four_o proposition_n especial_o that_o which_o you_o most_o insist_v upon_o therein_o name_n and_o history_n i_o deny_v and_o this_o not_o be_v grant_v your_o five_o proposition_n can_v follow_v fisher_n for_o although_o absolute_o speak_v a_o argument_n draw_v from_o negative_a authority_n be_v as_o master_n rogers_n aver_v of_o itself_o of_o no_o force_n and_o so_o protestant_n argument_n which_o be_v usual_o make_v against_o we_o out_o of_o negative_a authority_n as_o for_o example_n the_o scripture_n say_v nothing_o of_o this_o or_o that_o or_o the_o father_n of_o the_o first_o 300._o year_n make_v no_o express_a mention_n of_o this_o or_o that_o ergo_fw-la no_o such_o thing_n be_v or_o be_v of_o no_o force_n rogers_n the_o subject_n of_o our_o discourse_n be_v humane_a history_n and_o humane_a authority_n and_o what_o i_o speak_v you_o grant_v but_o you_o extend_v it_o beyond_o the_o bound_n of_o our_o then_o subject_a and_o more_o than_o i_o will_v grant_v to_o divine_a authority_n to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n to_o the_o scripture_n i_o say_v the_o authority_n of_o man_n be_v like_o himself_o uncertain_a his_o work_n weak_a and_o unperfect_a like_o himself_o but_o the_o word_n of_o god_n be_v like_o himself_o certain_a strong_a and_o full_a of_o perfection_n and_o therefore_o the_o argument_n draw_v from_o divine_a authority_n be_v certain_a though_o negative_o in_o those_o thing_n which_o the_o word_n of_o god_n propose_v and_o profess_v full_o to_o express_v but_o in_o man_n it_o be_v otherwise_o as_o in_o the_o next_o chapter_n i_o will_v express_v more_o full_o fisher_n yet_o when_o the_o negative_a argument_n be_v ground_v in_o a_o already_o grant_v affirmative_a proposition_n as_o it_o be_v in_o this_o our_o case_n the_o negative_a argument_n be_v of_o great_a and_o undeniable_a force_n rogers_n this_o i_o grant_v that_o negative_n be_v so_o far_o depend_v upon_o affirmative_n as_o that_o they_o can_v be_v understand_v they_o can_v be_v define_v they_o can_v be_v demonstrate_v without_o affirmative_n and_o so_o they_o may_v fisher_n as_o for_o example_n if_o we_o do_v grant_v this_o proposition_n if_o such_o or_o such_o a_o thing_n be_v holy_a scripture_n will_v have_v speak_v of_o it_o or_o the_o father_n of_o the_o first_o 300_o year_n will_v have_v make_v express_a mention_n of_o it_o if_o i_o say_v we_o grant_v this_o we_o can_v not_o deny_v the_o aforesaid_a negative_a argument_n usual_o make_v by_o protestant_n to_o be_v of_o force_n against_o we_o rogers_n i_o do_v not_o see_v what_o i_o shall_v mislike_v in_o this_o only_o it_o make_v nothing_o against_o i_o fisher_n but_o we_o deny_v and_o protestant_n can_v prove_v the_o say_a affirmative_a and_o so_o the_o negative_a argument_n have_v no_o force_n against_o we_o rogers_n you_o deny_v but_o we_o have_v prove_v the_o affirmative_a that_o all_o thing_n necessary_a unto_o salvation_n be_v plain_o set_v down_o in_o scripture_n and_o therefore_o the_o negative_a argument_n be_v of_o force_n against_o your_o new_a creed_n the_o article_n whereof_o be_v not_o manifest_v in_o scripture_n as_o i_o have_v more_o full_o set_v down_o in_o the_o four_o chapter_n fisher_n now_o master_n rogers_n do_v not_o nor_o in_o reason_n can_v deny_v master_n fisher_n four_o proposition_n which_o be_v a_o affirmative_a whereupon_o his_o five_o negative_a proposition_n be_v ground_v and_o therefore_o master_n rogers_n ought_v not_o to_o deny_v but_o must_v needs_o grant_v master_n fisher_n five_o and_o so_o all_o his_o five_o proposition_n rogers_n the_o cuckoo_n a_o bird_n that_o make_v no_o good_a music_n and_o have_v but_o one_o note_n yet_o be_v more_o frequent_a in_o vent_v that_o than_o the_o nightingale_n in_o tune_v her_o excellent_a music_n master_n fisher_n have_v nothing_o else_o to_o say_v in_o defence_n of_o his_o church_n and_o against_o we_o cry_n for_o name_n and_o history_n and_o not_o be_v able_a to_o prove_v his_o proposition_n still_o sing_v the_o same_o song_n master_n rogers_n do_v not_o nor_o in_o reason_n can_v deny_v ought_v not_o to_o deny_v but_o must_v needs_o grant_v which_o be_v presuppose_v and_o grant_v as_o master_n rogers_n seem_v to_o grant_v by_o grant_v i_o do_v not_o see_v how_o master_n rogers_n can_v deny_v i_o do_v not_o therefore_o see_v i_o say_v how_o master_n rogers_n can_v deny_v master_n fisher_n five_o proposition_n suppose_v he_o grant_v as_o he_o grant_v his_o four_o proposition_n neither_o do_v master_n rogers_n make_v any_o bone_n to_o grant_v i_o do_v not_o see_v why_o mr._n rogers_n may_v not_o absolute_o grant_v his_o four_o proposition_n all_o these_o grant_n be_v find_v in_o one_o leaf_n and_o half_o a_o page_n and_o yet_o i_o never_o grant_v it_o fisher_n which_o be_v grant_v if_o he_o will_v make_v a_o good_a answer_n as_o he_o pretend_v he_o must_v first_o set_v down_o name_n of_o protestant_a pastor_n in_o all_o age_n and_o not_o content_v himself_o with_o name_v some_o who_o he_o think_v to_o be_v protestant_n and_o with_o say_v he_o have_v go_v half_o the_o way_n rogers_n yet_o more_o grant_n i_o must_v again_o deny_v the_o grant_n this_o be_v right_n petitio_fw-la principij_fw-la a_o beg_n of_o that_o which_o be_v in_o question_n i_o have_v oft_o enough_o deny_v it_o yet_o you_o will_v never_o leave_v beg_v it_o belike_o you_o think_v to_o wrest_v it_o from_o i_o with_o importunacie_n it_o will_v never_o be_v i_o pray_v you_o look_v back_o see_v what_o i_o answer_v to_o your_o five_o proposition_n there_o you_o shall_v read_v thus_o in_o the_o five_o proposition_n i_o desire_v to_o know_v whether_o we_o shall_v show_v the_o name_n of_o protestant_n or_o their_o faith_n this_o we_o will_v show_v that_o we_o need_v not_o for_o the_o name_n of_o protestant_n be_v but_o arbitrary_a and_o accidental_a etc._n etc._n and_o within_o a_o few_o line_n after_o you_o shall_v read_v thus_o but_o if_o it_o be_v real_o mean_v thus_o let_v the_o protestant_n show_v that_o their_o now_o faith_n be_v teach_v by_o lawful_a pastor_n in_o all_o age_n i_o do_v with_o god_n help_n undertake_v it_o and_o require_v the_o same_o from_o the_o author_n of_o these_o proposition_n and_o demand_n have_v i_o here_o grant_v that_o the_o name_n of_o all_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n true_a or_o false_a be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o history_n which_o be_v the_o only_a ground_n whence_o you_o will_v infer_v your_o five_o proposition_n which_o be_v not_o grant_v
some_o year_n after_o a_o reply_n be_v publish_v whether_o by_o master_n fisher_n himself_o or_o some_o other_o in_o his_o behalf_n i_o know_v not_o a_o sight_n whereof_o i_o can_v not_o get_v in_o a_o year_n or_o two_o after_o to_o that_o reply_n of_o he_o i_o answer_v in_o this_o ensue_a discourse_n with_o a_o catalogue_n from_o the_o seven_o centurie_n to_o the_o fifteen_o of_o such_o as_o profess_v our_o faith_n which_o catalogue_n of_o particular_a man_n be_v finish_v i_o have_v add_v a_o catalogue_n of_o counsel_n in_o all_o age_n who_o profess_v our_o faith_n this_o book_n of_o i_o be_v finish_v seven_o or_o eight_o year_n past_a as_o a_o noble_a personage_n now_o employ_v by_o our_o sovereign_a king_n in_o foreign_a part_n can_v testify_v who_o bestow_v some_o book_n upon_o i_o which_o be_v very_o useful_a unto_o i_o in_o this_o work_n which_o he_o do_v read_v as_o do_v also_o many_o learned_a doctor_n of_o our_o church_n of_o hereford_n hoskinse_v d._n kernit_fw-la d._n best_a d._n hoskinse_v i_o be_v slow_a in_o publish_v it_o have_v no_o desire_n to_o be_v in_o print_n but_o the_o persuasion_n of_o some_o of_o our_o church_n and_o the_o brag_n of_o some_o of_o our_o adversary_n say_v that_o i_o neither_o have_v nor_o can_v answer_v master_n fisher_n cause_v i_o to_o present_v it_o to_o the_o licencer_n and_o so_o to_o send_v it_o into_o the_o view_n of_o the_o world_n request_v the_o christian_a reader_n first_o to_o peruse_v the_o former_a book_n print_v without_o my_o knowledge_n second_o to_o observe_v how_o my_o adversary_n do_v pass_v by_o many_o principal_a thing_n in_o my_o first_o answer_n without_o any_o mention_n at_o all_o of_o the_o same_o three_o that_o of_o what_o he_o have_v write_v against_o i_o i_o pass_v not_o by_o any_o one_o sentence_n unanswered_a my_o book_n have_v two_o general_a head_n first_o what_o our_o faith_n and_o church_n be_v and_o how_o prove_v primary_o and_o proper_o by_o scripture_n secondary_o and_o improper_o by_o reason_n and_o humane_a testimony_n second_o that_o by_o this_o way_n of_o a_o catalogue_n of_o those_o who_o teach_v their_o faith_n or_o trent_n creed_n as_o distinct_a from_o we_o they_o can_v prove_v their_o succession_n for_o many_o reason_n allege_v by_o i_o in_o the_o thirteen_o chapter_n of_o this_o book_n as_o first_o the_o uncertainty_n of_o humane_a testimony_n second_o their_o purge_n out_o of_o author_n that_o which_o make_v against_o they_o three_o their_o forge_n of_o author_n and_o counsel_n fourthly_a their_o slight_n and_o abase_v of_o the_o ecclesiastical_a historian_n of_o the_o primitive_a church_n example_n whereof_o shall_v be_v show_v as_o occasion_n shall_v be_v offer_v i_o will_v conclude_v this_o my_o preface_n with_o those_o word_n of_o saint_n augustine_n 48._o ep._n 48._o necesse_fw-la est_fw-la incerti_fw-la sint_fw-la qui_fw-la pro_fw-la societate_fw-la sva_fw-la testimonio_fw-la utuntur_fw-la non_fw-la divino_fw-la sed_fw-la svo_fw-la but_o let_v we_o with_o st._n augustine_n cleave_v to_o the_o scripture_n and_o say_v with_o he_o ecce_fw-la ubi_fw-la didicimus_fw-la christum_fw-la 166._o ep._n 166._o ecce_fw-la ubi_fw-la didicimus_fw-la ecclesiam_fw-la loe_o where_o we_o have_v learned_a christ_n lo_o where_o we_o have_v learn_v to_o find_v his_o church_n give_v the_o glory_n to_o god_n for_o what_o be_v well_o and_o impute_v the_o imperfection_n and_o defect_n to_o my_o weakness_n who_o will_v to_o my_o poor_a ability_n be_v thou_o in_o the_o lord._n h._n r_n a_o table_n of_o the_o content_n chap._n i._n the_o rule_n of_o answer_v 1._o to_o lay_v down_o his_o adversary_n word_n and_o 2._o to_o answer_v to_o every_o particular_a well_fw-mi concedendo_fw-la vel_fw-la negando_fw-la vel_fw-la distinguendo_fw-la either_o by_o grant_v deny_v or_o distinguish_v by_o explicate_v of_o ambiguous_a term_n observe_v by_o mr_n r._n but_o not_o by_o mr._n fisher_n a_o comparison_n from_o the_o dog_n drink_v of_o nilus_n and_o anthony_n fly_v from_o actium_n 1_o chap._n ii_o 1._o the_o occasion_n of_o this_o discourse_n 2._o mr._n fisher_n term_n ambiguous_a 3._o distinctio_fw-la vocis_fw-la and_o definitio_fw-la rei_fw-la neglect_v by_o master_n fisher_n though_o request_v by_o his_o adversary_n 4._o these_o be_v the_o ground_n of_o all_o doctrinal_a discourse_n 5._o master_n rogers_n answer_v to_o master_n fisher_n first_o question_n that_o he_o will_v show_v who_o profess_v the_o faith_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o all_o age_n 6._o master_n fisher_n can_v show_v the_o name_n of_o jesuite_n in_o all_o age_n 2_o chap._n iii_o 1._o master_n fisher_n rule_n that_o probatio_fw-la est_fw-la affirmantis_fw-la non_fw-la negantis_fw-la they_o who_o affirm_v be_v to_o prove_v admit_v by_o master_n rogers_n 2._o a_o church_n may_v be_v prove_v though_o the_o particular_a name_n not_o record_v as_o a_o christian_a church_n in_o this_o island_n before_o austin_n the_o monk_n come_v hither_o 3._o m._n fisher_n do_v confound_v two_o question_n and_o commit_v a_o fallacy_n secundum_fw-la plures_fw-la interrogationes_fw-la 4._o master_n fisher_n by_o his_o rule_n of_o name_n in_o all_o age_n may_v be_v deny_v to_o be_v a_o man_n to_o be_v descend_v of_o adam_n if_o he_o admit_v no_o other_o proof_n 5._o master_n roger_n argument_n to_o prove_v himself_o a_o christian_n confirm_v out_o of_o bellarmine_n baronius_n valenza_n etc._n etc._n 6._o what_o be_v essential_a and_o necessary_a to_o a_o explicit_a faith_n set_v down_o at_o large_a 7._o the_o covenant_n of_o faith_n the_o same_o in_o all_o christian_a church_n of_o the_o world_n latin_a roman_a and_o reform_v the_o greek_a armenian_n etc._n etc._n 5_o chap._n iu_o of_o the_o total_a object_n of_o faith_n as_o it_o include_v not_o only_o the_o primary_n essential_a matter_n of_o faith_n but_o also_o the_o secondary_a and_o accidental_a matter_n contain_v in_o the_o reveal_v truth_n and_o that_o from_o hence_o demonstration_n may_v be_v draw_v to_o prove_v the_o protestant_n to_o be_v a_o church_n 13_o chap._n v._n show_v out_o of_o saint_n augustine_n that_o there_o be_v no_o other_o way_n to_o demonstrate_v a_o church_n to_o be_v a_o true_a christian_a church_n but_o by_o the_o word_n of_o god_n 120_o chap._n vi_o the_o roman_a polemicke_a theologue_n liken_v to_o the_o indian_a ape_n that_o appear_v to_o alexander_n and_o to_o the_o ligurian_o the_o difference_n between_o the_o ancient_a and_o present_a church_n of_o rome_n between_o the_o ancient_a monk_n and_o the_o present_a the_o title_n of_o roman_a catholic_n a_o most_o impudent_a contradiction_n two_o impostor_n submit_v themselves_o as_o two_o patriaach_n to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n the_o whole_a faith_n of_o the_o protestant_n confirm_v by_o popish_a writer_n yet_o the_o romanist_n have_v another_o new_a faith_n of_o their_o own_o 32_o chap._n vii_o master_n fisher_n press_v by_o his_o own_o rule_n to_o prove_v the_o new_a creed_n wherein_o he_o be_v affirmative_a we_o negative_a 2._o a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n may_v bear_v witness_n against_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n 41_o chap._n viii_o what_o it_o be_v to_o communicate_v with_o other_o how_o far_o we_o yet_o communicate_v with_o the_o roman_a church_n and_o wherein_o we_o refuse_v to_o communicate_v 45_o chap._n ix_o 1._o some_o distinction_n justify_v 2._o master_n fisher_n put_v false_a title_n over_o his_o book_n as_o thus_o master_n rogers_n his_o weak_a ground_n over_o his_o 26_o and_o 27_o page_n and_o yet_o not_o one_o word_n speak_v in_o both_o those_o page_n of_o any_o of_o master_n roger_n ground_n and_o page_n 28._o master_n rogers_n most_o weak_a argument_n and_o yet_o not_o one_o argument_n of_o master_n rogers_n mention_v in_o all_o that_o page_n master_n fisher_n change_v his_o term_n for_o faith_n put_v doctrine_n 52._o chap._n x._o master_n roger_n definition_n of_o a_o protestant_a church_n conform_v the_o same_o definition_n agree_v with_o all_o true_a church_n in_o the_o world_n the_o rule_n of_o define_v bellarmine_n definion_n of_o the_o church_n confute_v together_o with_o the_o romish_a doctrine_n that_o none_o can_v be_v save_v out_o of_o their_o church_n 56_o chap._n xi_o m.f._n put_v false_a title_n upon_o the_o page_n of_o his_o book_n as_o master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a ground_n or_o argument_n where_o there_o be_v ●●mention_n of_o his_o ground_n or_o argument_n the_o protestant_n a_o true_a church_n not_o the_o true_a church_n history_n no_o good_a proof_n of_o the_o church_n all_o doctrine_n not_o point_n of_o faith_n m._n fisher_n reason_n to_o prove_v that_o the_o teacher_n of_o true_a and_o false_a doctrine_n be_v to_o be_v find_v in_o history_n answer_v 71_o chap._n xii_o negative_n depend_v upon_o affirmative_n master_n fisher_n tautology_n he_o say_v master_n rogers_n grant_v what_o he_o never_o do_v grant_v 86_o chap._n xiii_o four_o reason_n to_o prove_v that_o master_n fisher_n
first_o pope_n of_o that_o name_n be_v condemn_v for_o a_o heretic_n in_o three_o counsel_n accurse_v for_o a_o heretic_n by_o two_o pope_n that_o succeed_v after_o he_o his_o own_o heretical_a epistle_n be_v find_v in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o six_o council_n beside_o divers_a other_o writer_n latin_a &_o greek_a that_o relate_v it_o yet_o bellarmine_n have_v the_o face_n to_o deny_v all_o this_o pope_n joan_n be_v record_v by_o writer_n of_o their_o own_o be_v deny_v by_o these_o late_a roman_n that_o will_v blush_v at_o nothing_o when_o the_o carthaginian_n in_o the_o end_n of_o the_o second_o punic_a war_n send_v to_o rome_n to_o sue_v for_o peace_n a_o roman_a senator_n ask_v they_o by_o what_o god_n they_o will_v now_o swear_v see_v they_o have_v break_v the_o promise_n they_o have_v former_o make_v and_o swear_v by_o the_o god_n to_o observe_v so_o i_o may_v ask_v you_o what_o history_n you_o will_v allege_v for_o the_o first_o 400_o year_n who_o testimony_n you_o will_v admit_v who_o have_v reject_v and_o revile_v all_o historian_n of_o those_o time_n call_v they_o erroneous_a partial_a false_a deceitful_a lie_v impudent_a heretic_n chap._n xiiii_o fisher_n avthoritie_n as_o for_o example_n the_o scripture_n say_v nothing_o of_o this_o or_o that_o or_o the_o father_n of_o the_o first_o three_o hundred_o year_n make_v no_o express_a mention_n of_o this_o or_o that_o ergo_fw-la no_o such_o thing_n be_v or_o be_v of_o no_o force_n yet_o when_o the_o negative_a argument_n be_v ground_v in_o a_o already_o grant_v affirmative_a proposition_n as_o it_o be_v in_o this_o our_o case_n the_o negative_a argument_n be_v of_o great_a and_o undeniable_a force_n as_o for_o example_n if_o we_o do_v grant_v this_o proposition_n if_o such_o or_o such_o a_o thing_n be_v holy_a scripture_n will_v have_v speak_v of_o it_o or_o the_o father_n of_o the_o first_o three_o hundred_o year_n will_v have_v make_v express_a mention_n of_o it_o if_o i_o say_v we_o grant_v this_o we_o can_v not_o deny_v the_o aforesaid_a negative_a argument_n usual_o make_v by_o protestant_n to_o be_v of_o force_n against_o we_o now_o master_n rogers_n do_v not_o nor_o in_o reason_n can_v deny_v master_n fisher_n four_o proposition_n which_o be_v a_o affirmative_a whereupon_o his_o five_o negative_a proposition_n be_v ground_v and_o therefore_o master_n rogers_n ought_v not_o to_o deny_v but_o must_v needs_o grant_v master_n fisher_n five_o and_o so_o all_o his_o five_o proposition_n which_o be_v grant_v if_o he_o will_v make_v a_o good_a answer_n as_o he_o pretend_v he_o must_v first_o set_v down_o name_n of_o protestant_a pastor_n in_o all_o age_n and_o not_o content_v himself_o with_o name_v some_o who_o he_o think_v to_o be_v protestant_n and_o with_o say_v he_o have_v go_v half_o the_o way_n second_o if_o he_o will_v satisfy_v master_n fisher_n other_o paper_n as_o he_o pretend_v to_o do_v he_o must_v prove_v and_o defend_v they_o to_o be_v protestant_n as_o master_n fisher_n paper_n require_v and_o must_v bring_v some_o or_o other_o good_a author_n who_o do_v clear_o show_v they_o to_o hold_v all_o or_o some_o principal_a point_n of_o protestant_n faith_n differ_v from_o catholic_a roman_a faith_n and_o not_o to_o condemn_v any_o of_o the_o 39_o protestant_a article_n and_o must_v not_o content_v himself_o with_o make_v such_o argument_n as_o he_o make_v which_o be_v most_o insufficient_a either_o to_o convince_v or_o probable_o to_o persuade_v either_o his_o adversary_n or_o any_o indifferent_a judicious_a reader_n for_o these_o be_v his_o argument_n first_o a_o causis_fw-la thus_o the_o faith_n contain_v in_o the_o scripture_n have_v have_v visible_a professor_n in_o all_o age_n but_o the_o protestant_a faith_n be_v contain_v in_o the_o scripture_n ergo_fw-la second_o a_o signis_fw-la thus_o the_o faith_n be_v that_o which_o have_v testimony_n of_o antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_n of_o father_n and_o other_o writer_n in_o all_o age_n but_o the_o faith_n of_o protestant_n harh_n these_o testimony_n ergo_fw-la three_o ab_fw-la exemplis_fw-la thus_o name_n of_o such_o as_o profess_v the_o protestant_n faith_n in_o all_o age_n christ_n and_o his_o apostle_n st._n john_n ignatius_n polycarpus_n justinus_n martyr_n irenaeus_n tertullian_n clemens_n alex_n origen_n cyprian_n lactantius_n athanasius_n cyrill_n hierosol_n ambrozius_n nyssenus_n hieronimus_fw-la ruffinus_n chrysostomus_n augustinus_n cyrillus_n alex_n theodoretus_n socrates_n sozomenus_n fulgentius_n evagrius_n gregorius_n primus_fw-la beda_n damascenus_n alcuinus_fw-la thus_o have_v go_v half_a way_n i_o conclude_v with_o this_o argument_n the_o protestant_a faith_n be_v that_o which_o be_v contain_v in_o scripture_n be_v receive_v and_o teach_v by_o all_o the_o orthodox_n father_n but_o the_o father_n above_o name_v be_v all_o orthodox_n ergo_fw-la now_o who_o do_v not_o see_v that_o these_o argument_n be_v most_o insufficient_a and_o that_o they_o may_v be_v most_o easy_o answer_v by_o deny_v the_o protestant_a faith_n to_o be_v contain_v in_o scripture_n or_o to_o have_v testimony_n of_o antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_n or_o to_o have_v be_v profess_v by_o those_o father_n which_o master_n rogers_n name_v who_o do_v not_o also_o see_v that_o the_o same_o argument_n may_v be_v more_o strong_o retort_v against_o protestant_n by_o only_o alter_v the_o word_n protestant_n into_o catholic_n in_o regard_v our_o catholic_n doctrine_n may_v be_v and_o be_v ordinary_o prove_v by_o plain_a testimony_n of_o scripture_n and_o father_n even_o by_o confession_n of_o divers_a learned_a protestant_n themselves_o i_o marvel_v therefore_o that_o m._n roger_n be_v account_v a_o worthy_a oxford_n divine_a will_v affirm_v and_o offer_v to_o prove_v and_o defend_v protestant_n too_o have_v be_v in_o all_o age_n upon_o so_o slight_a ground_n which_o if_o they_o be_v admit_v for_o good_a every_o sect_n of_o heretic_n may_v affirm_v and_o prove_v and_o defend_v man_n of_o their_o sect_n to_o have_v be_v in_o all_o age_n for_o trial_n whereof_o i_o wish_v it_o may_v be_v imagine_v that_o there_o be_v a_o anabaptist_n for_o example_n who_o hold_v all_o the_o protestant_a faith_n save_v only_o some_o few_o negative_n and_o namely_o that_o it_o be_v not_o lawful_a to_o baptize_v infant_n and_o that_o this_o anabaptist_n have_v frame_v to_o himself_o such_o false_a rule_n as_o master_n rogers_n have_v set_v down_o to_o himself_o rogers_n i_o desire_v master_n fisher_n and_o the_o reader_n to_o look_v back_o to_o the_o former_a page_n of_o the_o precedent_a leaf_n to_o which_o i_o have_v already_o answer_v for_o in_o matter_n it_o be_v the_o same_o with_o that_o which_o go_v before_o contain_v in_o the_o 26_o and_o 27_o page_n of_o master_n fisher_n book_n against_o i_o which_o be_v all_o spend_v in_o seek_v to_o strengthen_v his_o own_o proposition_n his_o own_o ground_n yet_o the_o title_n he_o give_v unto_o both_o those_o page_n be_v master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a ground_n there_o be_v in_o both_o those_o page_n not_o one_o sentence_n nor_o line_n nor_o word_n concern_v any_o ground_n of_o i_o so_o in_o the_o 28_o page_n of_o his_o book_n he_o have_v put_v this_o title_n master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a argument_n whereas_o there_o be_v not_o one_o argument_n nor_o one_o proposition_n of_o i_o in_o all_o that_o page_n as_o may_v easy_o appear_v to_o he_o that_o will_v but_o read_v the_o same_o only_o he_o speak_v something_o in_o defence_n of_o his_o own_o ground_n to_o which_o i_o have_v already_o answer_v yet_o because_o of_o the_o title_n agree_v with_o the_o 29_o and_o 30_o page_n which_o follow_v next_o after_o i_o have_v copy_v they_o out_o and_o place_v they_o altogether_o that_o have_v this_o title_n viz._n master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a argument_n which_o i_o think_v he_o do_v to_o gull_v his_o proselyte_n who_o read_v but_o the_o title_n must_v think_v that_o master_n fisher_n have_v show_v my_o ground_n and_o argument_n to_o be_v weak_a when_o and_o where_o he_o have_v not_o make_v any_o mention_n of_o any_o argument_n of_o i_o chap._n xv._o fisher_n now_o who_o do_v not_o see_v that_o these_o argument_n be_v most_o insufficient_a and_o they_o may_v be_v most_o easy_o answer_v by_o deny_v the_o protestant_a faith_n to_o be_v contain_v in_o scripture_n or_o to_o have_v testimony_n of_o antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_v or_o to_o have_v be_v profess_v by_o these_o father_n which_o m._n rogers_n name_v rogers_n i_o do_v not_o think_v that_o you_o do_v see_v any_o insufficiency_n in_o the_o argument_n or_o that_o they_o be_v easy_o to_o be_v answer_v for_o than_o you_o will_v have_v answer_v punctual_o to_o every_o argument_n apart_o and_o not_o thus_o confuse_o and_o altogether_o as_o if_o you_o have_v be_v afraid_a to_o come_v to_o close_a fight_n but_o stand_v a_o far_o off_o to_o
verse_n semper_fw-la quotidiè_fw-la sic_fw-la jam_fw-la nunc_fw-la atque_fw-la profectò_fw-la to_o which_o another_o add_v aedepol_n ecce_fw-la quidem_fw-la scilicet_fw-la indè_fw-la procul_fw-la my_o adversary_n at_o the_o first_o make_v a_o short_a weak_a answer_n to_o what_o i_o have_v write_v such_o as_o give_v no_o satisfaction_n to_o his_o own_o side_n for_o so_o master_n waterhouse_n who_o bring_v i_o that_o answer_n tell_v i_o be_v afterward_o call_v upon_o to_o make_v a_o more_o full_a and_o more_o satisfactory_a answer_n either_o by_o himself_o or_o some_o other_o of_o his_o fellow_n make_v up_o this_o not_o so_o full_a as_o he_o shall_v for_o he_o pass_v by_o more_o than_o half_a my_o ground_n and_o argument_n with_o silence_n and_o that_o which_o he_o have_v answer_v be_v botch_v up_o with_o impertinency_n and_o fallacy_n a_o great_a many_o of_o those_o botch_n i_o have_v show_v before_o as_o who_o do_v not_o see_v i_o do_v not_o see_v master_n rogers_n may_v grant_v if_o master_n rogers_n do_v grant_v i_o see_v no_o reason_n why_o he_o shall_v not_o grant_v etc._n etc._n and_o here_o to_o my_o ground_n by_o which_o it_o seem_v he_o will_v not_o to_o my_o first_o ground_n by_o which_o it_o seem_v to_o follow_v to_o my_o second_o ground_n as_o if_o there_o be_v not_o some_o point_n etc._n etc._n to_o my_o three_o ground_n and_o to_o the_o four_o as_o if_o a_o anabaptist_n may_v judge_v it_o will_v be_v hold_v so_o to_o be_v and_o to_o my_o five_o he_o may_v be_v yet_o further_o allow_v to_o reject_v etc._n etc._n here_o be_v neither_o grant_v nor_o deny_v nor_o distinguish_v nor_o argue_v but_o all_o be_v seem_v and_o as_o if_o it_o be_v all_o concur_v to_o make_v his_o learning_n sophistry_n and_o himself_o a_o sophister_n elench_v arist_n in_o elench_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d sophistry_n be_v seem_a wisdom_n and_o a_o sophister_n be_v he_o that_o seek_v for_o gain_v by_o seem_a wisdom_n whereas_o there_o be_v no_o such_o matter_n and_o where_o he_o seem_v to_o argue_v it_o be_v but_o the_o contentious_a discourse_n of_o a_o sophister_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d consist_v of_o nothing_o but_o seem_a probability_n as_o i_o have_v show_v in_o all_o instance_n which_o i_o have_v meet_v with_o yet_o and_o so_o will_v in_o this_o my_o three_o ground_n be_v that_o what_o be_v no_o point_n of_o faith_n in_o the_o primitive_a age_n can_v be_v none_o afterward_o ut_fw-la suprà_fw-la vincentius_n lirinensis_n &_o aquinas_n what_o say_v he_o to_o this_o do_v he_o grant_v it_o do_v he_o distinguish_v do_v he_o deny_v it_o no_o grant_n no_o distinction_n no_o direct_a denial_n for_o that_o he_o dare_v not_o lest_o he_o shall_v deny_v that_o ancient_a father_n and_o his_o great_a schoolman_n yet_o he_o say_v something_o against_o it_o or_o rather_o make_v as_o if_o he_o will_v he_o say_v that_o some_o point_n be_v define_v by_o counsel_n and_o so_o make_v necessary_a to_o be_v believe_v which_o before_o be_v not_o hold_v necessary_a even_o by_o orthodox_n father_n ergo_fw-la the_o church_n may_v make_v new_a point_n or_o article_n of_o faith_n his_o argument_n and_o his_o antecedent_n be_v both_o false_a his_o antecedent_n be_v ambiguous_a for_o to_o believe_v may_v signify_v a_o act_n either_o of_o humane_a faith_n or_o religious_a divine_a faith_n if_o he_o understand_v believe_v in_o the_o first_o sense_n i_o grant_v his_o antecedent_n viz._n that_o we_o be_v to_o give_v great_a credit_n unto_o the_o decree_n and_o definition_n of_o general_n counsel_n but_o yet_o inferior_a to_o that_o credit_n we_o give_v unto_o the_o word_n of_o god_n because_o he_o be_v truth_n itself_o who_o can_v err_v and_o they_o be_v man_n who_o may_v err_v and_o therefore_o to_o take_v this_o viz_o that_o the_o definition_n of_o counsel_n be_v article_n of_o faith_n thence_o to_o prove_v that_o we_o have_v new_a article_n of_o faith_n beside_o those_o of_o the_o primitive_a church_n be_v petitio_fw-la principii_fw-la a_o beg_n of_o that_o for_o grant_v which_o he_o know_v we_o deny_v 21._o artic._n 21._o it_o be_v the_o doctrine_n of_o our_o church_n that_o general_n counsel_n may_v err_v and_o that_o the_o church_n ought_v not_o to_o enforce_v any_o thing_n to_o be_v believe_v for_o necessity_n of_o salvation_n whereas_o you_o say_v 20._o artic._n 20._o the_o decree_n of_o counsel_n be_v hold_v necessary_a there_o be_v a_o twofold_a necessity_n of_o different_a degree_n 1._o necessitas_fw-la medii_fw-la 2._o necessitas_fw-la praecepti_fw-la this_o late_a may_v belong_v to_o the_o decree_n of_o counsel_n not_o the_o former_a here_o you_o may_v have_v remember_v my_o distinction_n of_o 1._o doctrine_n of_o faith_n 2._o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n &_o 3_o doctrine_n of_o the_o school_n definition_n of_o counsel_n be_v church_n doctrine_n not_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n and_o therefore_o have_v a_o inferior_a necessity_n without_o the_o knowledge_n whereof_o a_o man_n may_v be_v save_v and_o thousand_o be_v save_v before_o those_o counsel_n be_v hear_v of_o but_o no_o man_n can_v be_v save_v without_o the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n know_v and_o profess_v by_o himself_o if_o he_o be_v in_o year_n of_o discretion_n or_o by_o his_o parent_n and_o surety_n if_o he_o be_v a_o child_n whereas_o you_o say_v that_o those_o that_o refuse_v the_o decree_n of_o counsel_n be_v account_v heretic_n and_o take_v this_o for_o grant_v that_o so_o you_o may_v infer_v a_o addition_n to_o article_n of_o faith_n be_v the_o like_o beg_v of_o a_o medium_fw-la as_o the_o former_a you_o know_v we_o do_v not_o so_o define_v a_o haereticke_n bull._n jewel_n in_o his_o view_n of_o a_o seditious_a bull._n for_o with_o we_o he_o be_v a_o haereticke_n who_o deni_v the_o article_n of_o the_o christian_a faith_n and_o so_o he_o be_v define_v by_o the_o most_o learned_a of_o your_o side_n hold_v that_o heresy_n do_v direct_o and_o principal_o dissent_v from_o the_o article_n of_o faith_n so_o aquinas_n that_o heresy_n be_v opposite_a to_o faith_n so_o widrington_n a_o priest_n of_o your_o own_o praefat._n ante_fw-la respond_v apol._n pro_fw-la jure_fw-la princ._n but_o with_o you_o and_o your_o pope_n all_o thing_n be_v heresy_n which_o you_o like_v not_o as_o paul_n the_o second_o do_v pronounce_v they_o heretic_n ●_o platina_n in_o vita_fw-la pauli_n ●_o who_o shall_v from_o that_o time_n forward_o in_o earnest_n or_o in_o jest_n mention_v the_o name_n of_o academic_a do_v i_o think_v this_o decree_n of_o your_o pope_n be_v of_o force_n be_v a_o oxford_n man_n i_o shall_v be_v very_o sorry_a for_o myself_o and_o other_o who_o in_o our_o oracle_n do_v style_v our_o auditor_n by_o no_o name_n more_o frequent_o than_o academici_n if_o you_o have_v ever_o think_v your_o answer_n shall_v have_v be_v read_v you_o will_v never_o have_v write_v upon_o the_o top_n of_o your_o leave_n master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a ground_n where_o there_o be_v no_o mention_n make_v of_o his_o ground_n and_o most_o weak_a argument_n where_o you_o make_v no_o answer_n at_o all_o to_o my_o argument_n and_o give_v no_o instance_n to_o those_o argument_n which_o can_v be_v answer_v without_o instance_n nor_o pass_v by_o many_o argument_n and_o ground_n without_o any_o mention_n of_o they_o and_o those_o you_o mention_v to_o pass_v they_o over_o with_o it_o seem_v to_o the_o first_o seem_v to_o the_o second_o as_o if_o to_o the_o three_o as_o if_o to_o the_o four_o he_o may_v be_v yet_o further_o allow_v to_o the_o five_o whereof_o i_o be_o next_o to_o speak_v fisher_n and_o fourthly_a that_o the_o anabaptist_n faith_n be_v that_o which_o be_v contain_v in_o scripture_n and_o the_o ancient_a creed_n and_o the_o anabaptist_n church_n be_v a_o society_n of_o man_n which_o profess_v the_o faith_n contain_v in_o scripture_n and_o the_o ancient_a creed_n as_o if_o a_o anabaptist_n may_v be_v judge_n it_o will_v be_v hold_v so_o to_o be_v rogers_n i_o will_v grant_v that_o the_o anabaptist_n be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n ecclesia_fw-la verae_fw-la quamvis_fw-la non_fw-la sanae_fw-la and_o that_o church_n to_o have_v be_v always_o in_o age_n whereof_o he_o be_v a_o member_n yea_o membrum_fw-la verum_fw-la quamvis_fw-la non_fw-la sanum_fw-la a_o true_a member_n though_o a_o disease_a as_o a_o gouty_a foot_n of_o a_o man_n that_o be_v otherwise_o in_o health_n and_o sixty_o or_o seventie_o year_n old_a be_v a_o true_a member_n though_o not_o a_o sound_a member_n of_o that_o body_n which_o in_o all_o other_o part_n be_v sound_a and_o this_o foot_n thus_o gouty_a though_o it_o become_v gouty_a but_o within_o a_o few_o day_n before_o may_v true_o say_v that_o that_o body_n whereof_o it_o be_v a_o member_n have_v be_v 10_o 20_o 30_o 40_o 70_o year_n the_o very_a same_o body_n which_o now_o
it_o be_v the_o very_a same_o essential_o though_o not_o accidental_o still_o a_o body_n and_o still_o the_o same_o body_n though_o sometime_o more_o healthy_a than_o other_o and_o in_o some_o part_n more_o sound_a than_o other_o now_o master_n fisher_n to_o what_o end_n be_v your_o great_a discourse_n of_o anabaptist_n see_v i_o grant_v he_o to_o be_v of_o the_o church_n if_o he_o be_v such_o a_o one_o as_o you_o suppose_v he_o who_o agree_v with_o i_o in_o all_o thing_n else_o viz._n in_o the_o scripture_n in_o the_o creed_n in_o the_o sacrament_n in_o the_o essence_n of_o the_o sacrament_n in_o their_o matter_n and_o form_n in_o their_o force_n and_o efficacy_n only_o differ_v from_o i_o in_o the_o circumstance_n of_o time_n namely_o when_o baptism_n be_v to_o be_v confer_v and_o bestow_v upon_o child_n of_o christian_n whether_o before_o or_o after_o they_o be_v come_v to_o year_n of_o discretion_n chap._n xxi_o fisher_n and_o five_o that_o have_v distinguish_v faith_n as_o master_n rogers_n do_v into_o doctrine_n fundamental_a and_o necessary_a and_o doctrine_n not_o fundamental_a but_o accessary_a or_o not_o necessary_a he_o may_v be_v yet_o further_o allow_v to_o reject_v all_o church_n authority_n and_o not_o to_o be_v satisfy_v with_o what_o be_v teach_v by_o any_o church_n we_o or_o his_o own_o as_o master_n rogers_n confess_v he_o be_v unsatisfied_a and_o consequent_o be_v leave_v to_o his_o own_o liberty_n may_v apply_v this_o distinction_n as_o he_o shall_v please_v account_v only_o that_o to_o be_v necessary_a which_o he_o list_v so_o to_o account_v i_o wish_v i_o say_v that_o such_o a_o anabaptist_n be_v imagine_v and_o that_o master_n rogers_n be_v to_o be_v his_o opponent_n that_o it_o may_v be_v see_v whether_o this_o anabaptist_n can_v not_o as_o well_o by_o these_o aforesaid_a rule_n definition_n and_o distinction_n affirm_v prove_v and_o defend_v his_o faith_n and_o church_n to_o have_v be_v always_o visible_a against_o master_n rogers_n as_o master_n rogers_n do_v or_o can_v by_o his_o rule_n definition_n and_o distinction_n affirm_v prove_v and_o defend_v the_o protestant_a church_n to_o have_v be_v always_o visible_a against_o catholic_n or_o whether_o master_n rogers_n can_v better_o convince_v such_o a_o anabaptist_n not_o to_o have_v the_o ancient_a faith_n or_o not_o to_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o continual_a visible_a church_n than_o a_o catholic_a can_v convince_v master_n rogers_n rogers_n concern_v this_o distinction_n i_o have_v speak_v afore_o that_o some_o doctrine_n be_v more_o necessary_a than_o other_o now_o let_v we_o see_v whether_o this_o man_n say_v any_o thing_n against_o it_o and_o what_o it_o be_v i_o do_v not_o find_v he_o do_v deny_v it_o or_o grant_v it_o so_o that_o i_o know_v not_o what_o he_o mean_v by_o the_o word_n follow_v viz._n he_o may_v be_v yet_o further_o allow_v to_o reject_v all_o church_n authority_n and_o not_o be_v satisfy_v with_o what_o be_v teach_v by_o any_o church_n we_o or_o his_o own_o as_o master_n rogers_n confess_v he_o be_v unsatisfied_a first_o you_o mighty_o falsify_v this_o parenthesis_n upon_o i_o my_o word_n be_v these_o i_o do_v confess_v that_o none_o of_o your_o side_n or_o we_o have_v give_v i_o full_a satisfaction_n in_o this_o point_n what_o be_v res_fw-la fidei_fw-la per_fw-la se_fw-la and_o in_o the_o word_n next_o go_v before_o i_o say_v thus_o master_n fisher_n i_o desire_v you_o also_o for_o the_o avoid_n of_o confusion_n to_o deliver_v your_o opinion_n whether_o all_o the_o affirmative_a doctrine_n of_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n be_v matter_n of_o faith_n per_fw-la se_fw-la fundamental_a and_o necessary_a to_o be_v hold_v for_o salvation_n fide_fw-la explicita_fw-la i_o speak_v de_fw-fr adultis_fw-la quibus_fw-la facultas_fw-la datur_fw-la discendi_fw-la who_o be_v come_v to_o year_n of_o discretion_n have_v capacity_n to_o learn_v this_o much_o in_o my_o first_o answer_n to_o this_o my_o request_n he_o make_v no_o reply_n either_o he_o be_v ignorant_a or_o dare_v not_o express_v whether_o all_o the_o affirmative_a doctrine_n of_o his_o council_n of_o trent_n be_v matter_n of_o faith_n and_o necessary_a to_o be_v know_v and_o believe_v though_o i_o then_o tell_v he_o i_o propose_v this_o question_n as_o desirous_a to_o learn_v this_o much_o concern_v my_o question_n and_o my_o request_n now_o to_o my_o assertion_n viz._n that_o none_o of_o his_o side_n or_o we_o have_v give_v i_o full_a satisfaction_n herein_o he_o hence_o infer_v that_o i_o be_o unsatisfied_a without_o any_o limitation_n or_o if_o we_o will_v look_v back_o beyond_o the_o parenthesis_n as_o if_o i_o be_v unsatisfied_a in_o that_o which_o be_v teach_v in_o any_o church_n we_o or_o he_o this_o be_v the_o right_a fallacy_n à_fw-la dicto_fw-la secundum_fw-la quid_fw-la ad_fw-la dictum_fw-la simpliciter_fw-la i_o say_v i_o be_v satisfy_v by_o none_o of_o they_o or_o we_o in_o the_o instance_n of_o one_o distinction_n what_o doctrine_n be_v to_o be_v reduce_v to_o either_o member_n of_o the_o distinction_n namely_o what_o doctrine_n be_v necessary_a what_o not_o necessary_a what_o be_v fundamental_a what_o accessary_n what_o matter_n of_o faith_n proper_o what_o accidental_o and_o he_o will_v traduce_v i_o as_o if_o i_o be_v unsatisfied_a in_o all_o other_o doctrine_n this_o be_v the_o devil_n logic_n master_n fisher_n who_o be_v the_o father_n of_o lie_n to_o say_v i_o confess_v that_o i_o never_o do_v as_o well_o i_o may_v prove_v that_o you_o have_v never_o a_o nose_n on_o your_o face_n or_o that_o you_o be_v blind_a thus_o mr._n fisher_n have_v never_o a_o nose_n on_o his_o breast_n ergo_fw-la mr._n fisher_n have_v no_o nose_n as_o you_o say_v master_n rogers_n do_v confess_v he_o be_v unsatisfied_a in_o some_o thing_n belong_v to_o one_o distinction_n ergo_fw-la master_n rogers_n be_v unsatisfied_a in_o any_o doctrine_n or_o thus_o mr._n fisher_n do_v confess_v that_o he_o do_v not_o see_v why_o master_n rogers_n may_v not_o absolute_o grant_v his_o four_o proposition_n ergo_fw-la master_n fisher_n do_v confess_v he_o do_v not_o see_v master_n fisher_n i_o be_o satisfy_v in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o my_o faith_n in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o my_o church_n in_o the_o truth_n of_o we_o and_o the_o falsehood_n of_o you_o as_o that_o i_o desire_v to_o die_v rather_o than_o receive_v your_o faith_n or_o forsake_v any_o of_o i_o and_o i_o do_v hold_v your_o roman_a church_n the_o most_o corrupt_a erroneous_a usurp_a part_n or_o member_n of_o the_o christian_a church_n that_o be_v in_o the_o world_n i_o distinguish_v between_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n the_o church_n and_o of_o the_o school_n these_o latter_a be_v private_a opinion_n of_o man_n in_o distinguish_v define_v or_o argue_v be_v neither_o contain_v in_o scripture_n nor_o deliver_v by_o the_o church_n i_o may_v be_v unsatisfied_a in_o and_o the_o rather_o because_o the_o great_a writer_n of_o your_o side_n and_o we_o do_v vary_v herein_o or_o speak_v indefinite_o which_o be_v no_o resolution_n thomas_n secunda_fw-la secundae_fw-la quest_n 2._o say_v one_o thing_n occam_n another_o and_o valenza_n differ_v from_o both_o tom_n dei_fw-la lib._n 4._o c._n 11._o de_fw-la verbo_fw-la dei_fw-la 3_o disp_n 1._o q._n bellarmine_n speak_v indifinite_o some_o thing_n in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o christianity_n as_o well_o belong_v to_o faith_n as_o manner_n be_v simple_o necessary_a to_o all_o man_n that_o will_v be_v save_v such_o be_v the_o knowledge_n of_o the_o apostolic_a creed_n of_o the_o ten_o commandment_n and_o of_o some_o sacrament_n non_fw-la nullorum_fw-la sacramentorum_fw-la not_o define_v which_o and_o give_v small_a satisfaction_n with_o his_o individuum_fw-la vagum_fw-la of_o some_o sacrament_n not_o tell_v which_o so_o also_o among_o our_o writer_n calvin_n hooker_n doctor_n field_n doctor_n usher_n do_v all_o thus_o distinguish_v but_o when_o they_o come_v to_o express_v what_o belong_v to_o either_o member_n they_o do_v not_o all_o speak_v alike_o calvin_n institut_fw-la l._n 4._o cap._n 1._o n._n 12._o say_v some_o thing_n be_v necessary_a for_o all_o man_n to_o believe_v as_o that_o there_o be_v one_o god_n that_o christ_n be_v god_n and_o the_o son_n of_o god_n that_o our_o salvation_n consist_v in_o the_o mercy_n of_o god_n &_o similia_fw-la and_o such_o like_a this_o word_n similia_fw-la leave_v it_o undetermined_a hooker_n hold_v these_o three_o to_o be_v fundamental_a necessary_a and_o essential_a unto_o the_o church_n one_o lord_n one_o faith_n one_o baptism_n but_o under_o that_o of_o faith_n he_o understand_v as_o necessary_a the_o article_n of_o the_o apostle_n creed_n so_o that_o he_o and_z doctor_z usher_n differ_v very_o little_a or_o nothing_o at_o all_o doctor_n field_n be_v somewhat_o more_o full_a in_o his_o three_o book_n of_o the_o church_n the_o four_o chapter_n yet_o not_o in_o real_a addition_n but_o
in_o explication_n so_o that_o they_o all_o receive_v the_o distinction_n which_o you_o will_v seem_v to_o reject_v as_o if_o the_o admit_v of_o that_o distinction_n do_v infer_v a_o liberty_n to_o reject_v all_o church_n authority_n and_o not_o to_o be_v satisfy_v by_o what_o be_v teach_v by_o any_o church_n how_o this_o do_v follow_v i_o know_v not_o i_o think_v it_o be_v as_o far_o from_o due_a consequence_n as_o to_o say_v i_o have_v my_o poke_n full_a of_o plumb_n therefore_o that_o be_v the_o way_n to_o london_n it_o be_v my_o hard_a hap_n to_o meet_v with_o a_o adversary_n which_o have_v so_o little_a honesty_n as_o to_o falsify_v my_o word_n so_o little_a learning_n as_o that_o he_o have_v not_o and_o it_o seem_v he_o can_v frame_v one_o argument_n i_o be_o loath_a to_o take_v the_o pain_n to_o add_v form_n to_o such_o rude_a matter_n to_o draw_v the_o line_n of_o reason_n and_o measure_n with_o rule_n of_o art_n such_o rot_a stuff_n such_o incohaerent_a disjoint_v speech_n as_o that_o himself_o be_v afeard_a to_o insert_v the_o note_n of_o illation_n ergo._n illation_n ergo._n therefore_o but_o i_o will_v do_v it_o for_o he_o master_n rogers_n have_v distinguish_v between_o doctrine_n fundamental_a and_o necessary_a and_o doctrine_n not_o fundamental_a but_o accessory_a ergo_fw-la master_n rogers_n may_v be_v further_o allow_v to_o reject_v all_o church_n authority_n and_o not_o be_v satisfy_v with_o any_o church_n doctrine_n negatur_fw-la argumentum_fw-la master_n fisher_n for_o if_o it_o be_v a_o good_a argument_n let_v i_o urge_v it_o thus_o aquinas_n occam_n espenseus_n the_o master_n of_o the_o sentence_n bonaventure_n durandus_fw-la etc._n etc._n a_o world_n of_o schoolman_n and_o other_o writer_n do_v make_v the_o same_o distinction_n ergo_fw-la aquinas_n occam_n espenceus_n the_o master_n of_o the_o sentence_n with_o the_o school_n in_o general_a be_v allow_v to_o reject_v church_n authority_n and_o church_n doctrine_n if_o the_o argument_n be_v true_a thus_o it_o must_v follow_v i_o be_v so_o far_o from_o account_v that_o to_o be_v necessary_a which_o i_o listen_v so_o to_o account_v as_o that_o i_o desire_v of_o you_o my_o adversary_n to_o be_v inform_v and_o direct_v herein_o whereas_o you_o object_n that_o a_o anabaptist_n may_v prove_v his_o church_n to_o have_v be_v always_o visible_a by_o my_o rule_n definition_n and_o distinction_n be_v most_o untrue_a one_o of_o the_o rule_n or_o medium_fw-la by_o which_o i_o do_v prove_v my_o church_n be_v antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_n will_v you_o grant_v that_o this_o medium_fw-la do_v agree_v to_o the_o anabaptist_n in_o that_o point_n which_o especial_o give_v he_o that_o name_n viz._n in_o deny_v baptism_n to_o child_n it_o seem_v you_o have_v little_a regard_n what_o you_o say_v that_o you_o will_v thus_o strengthen_v the_o anabaptist_n in_o his_o error_n as_o if_o he_o have_v antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_v for_o his_o exclude_v child_n from_o baptism_n or_o if_o by_o his_o negative_a he_o put_v i_o to_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a that_o child_n be_v to_o be_v baptize_v i_o will_v prove_v it_o by_o the_o testimony_n of_o antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_v but_o i_o be_o not_o now_o to_o deal_v with_o anabaptist_n but_o with_o a_o papist_n chap._n xxii_o fisher_n for_o proof_n whereof_o let_v it_o be_v suppose_v that_o master_n ●_z can_v as_o he_o can_v produce_v out_o of_o scripture_n and_o father_n other_o writer_n in_o all_o age_n as_o many_o and_o as_o plain_a and_o repugnant_a affirmative_a sentence_n against_o the_o negative_a doctrine_n of_o anabaptist_n as_o catholic_n ordinary_o do_v against_o protestant_n negative_n and_o then_o i_o ask_v master_n rogers_n whether_o this_o anabaptist_n may_v not_o as_o usual_o protestant_n do_v take_v one_o or_o other_o exception_n either_o of_o argument_n or_o book_n out_o of_o which_o the_o sentence_n be_v cite_v as_o if_o it_o be_v not_o undoubted_o canonical_a or_o authentical_a or_o against_o the_o translation_n or_o transcript_n or_o print_a copy_n as_o not_o certain_o know_v to_o be_v conform_v to_o the_o first_o antographon_n or_o original_a or_o against_o the_o interpretation_n and_o sense_n of_o the_o word_n or_o the_o consequence_n gather_v out_o of_o they_o as_o if_o some_o other_o sense_n be_v intend_v by_o the_o author_n or_o if_o none_o of_o these_o exception_n can_v be_v make_v whether_o he_o may_v not_o at_o least_o say_v that_o it_o be_v not_o the_o faith_n or_o consent_v of_o all_o antiquity_n which_o do_v hold_v such_o a_o affirmative_a contrary_a to_o his_o negative_a doctrine_n but_o only_o the_o opinion_n of_o some_o one_o or_o few_o whilst_o other_o hold_v the_o contrary_a or_o seem_v doubtful_a or_o if_o it_o be_v show_v to_o be_v the_o general_a doctrine_n of_o all_o who_o have_v occasion_n to_o write_v of_o that_o matter_n without_o any_o one_o teach_v contrary_a whether_o he_o may_v not_o deny_v the_o point_n to_o be_v fundamental_a and_o say_v that_o they_o differ_v not_o from_o he_o in_o doctrine_n necessary_a but_o only_o in_o doctrine_n accessary_a and_o that_o notwithstanding_o this_o difference_n they_o may_v and_o be_v possessor_n of_o his_o faith_n and_o member_n of_o his_o anabaptist_n church_n all_o this_o doubtless_o he_o may_v say_v and_o so_o defend_v ancient_a father_n to_o be_v of_o his_o faith_n and_o church_n as_o well_o as_o master_n rogers_n can_v defend_v they_o to_o be_v of_o his_o faith_n and_o church_n neither_o can_v master_n rogers_n disprove_v what_o the_o anabaptist_n aver_v but_o with_o the_o same_o breath_n he_o disproove_v his_o own_o book_n and_o make_v it_o appear_v to_o every_o judicious_a reader_n that_o he_o neither_o can_v true_o name_v sound_o prove_v nor_o in_o any_o good_a sort_n defend_v either_o the_o ancient_a father_n or_o any_o other_o orthodox_n who_o he_o name_v or_o any_o lawful_a pastor_n or_o other_o catholic_n or_o heretic_n before_o luther_n or_o indeed_o luther_n himself_o to_o have_v hold_v the_o entire_a protestant_a faith_n for_o if_o all_o protestant_a doctrine_n which_o be_v different_a from_o the_o faith_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n may_v be_v call_v doctrine_n of_o protestant_a faith_n it_o may_v be_v evident_o show_v that_o none_o of_o the_o aforesaid_a do_v in_o all_o point_n of_o faith_n agree_v with_o the_o english_a protestant_a church_n who_o minister_n be_v bind_v to_o subscribe_v to_o the_o 39_o article_n above_o mention_v rogers_n all_o this_o wild_a discourse_n be_v to_o overthrow_v my_o ground_n by_o show_v that_o they_o may_v agree_v with_o a_o anabaptist_n who_o as_o he_o suppose_v be_v not_o of_o the_o visible_a church_n &_o take_v it_o as_o grant_v by_o i_o wherein_o he_o be_v deceive_v for_o i_o hold_v the_o anabaptist_n though_o i_o condemn_v his_o error_n in_o deny_v baptism_n unto_o child_n to_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n though_o disease_v as_o the_o papist_n be_v and_o less_o disease_v than_o he_o his_o argument_n which_o come_v from_o he_o as_o a_o bear_n whelp_n or_o worse_o for_o ever_o it_o want_v some_o principal_a limb_n be_v form_v be_v this_o those_o be_v no_o true_a gound_n distinction_n definition_n or_o argument_n a_o anabaptist_n may_v prove_v himself_o to_o be_v of_o the_o church_n but_o by_o master_n roger_n ground_n distinction_n definition_n and_o argument_n by_o which_o a_o anabaptist_n may_v prove_v himself_o to_o be_v of_o the_o church_n ergo_fw-la master_n rogers_n ground_n distinction_n definition_n and_o argument_n be_v no_o true_a ground_n i_o deny_v his_o major_n which_o he_o take_v as_o grant_v commit_v his_o old_a fallacy_n of_o petitio_fw-la principii_fw-la beg_v and_o suppose_v that_o for_o a_o medium_n and_o principle_n which_o be_v deny_v or_o at_o least_o question_v and_o spend_v himself_o whole_o in_o prove_v the_o minor_a which_o i_o grant_v not_o for_o any_o proof_n that_o he_o bring_v but_o for_o divers_a other_o reason_n which_o i_o can_v allege_v as_o namely_o these_o among_o other_o a_o erroneous_a opinion_n in_o matter_n of_o practice_n and_o moral_a precept_n do_v not_o exclude_v out_o of_o the_o visible_a church_n but_o error_n in_o matter_n of_o faith_n the_o error_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n be_v in_o matter_n of_o practice_n not_o in_o matter_n of_o faith_n ergo_fw-la his_o error_n do_v not_o exclude_v he_o out_o of_o the_o visible_a church_n they_o do_v not_o deny_v baptism_n nor_o any_o thing_n that_o be_v substantial_a in_o baptism_n but_o only_o err_v in_o a_o circumstance_n of_o time_n deny_v that_o unto_o child_n not_o absolute_o and_o for_o ever_o but_o until_o they_o come_v to_o make_v profession_n of_o their_o faith_n shall_v this_o exclude_v they_o and_o their_o child_n out_o of_o the_o church_n and_o why_o because_o by_o this_o delay_n many_o child_n die_v without_o baptism_n as_o you_o suppose_v be_v damn_v but_o
he_o have_v already_o seem_v to_o say_v that_o none_o of_o their_o negative_a doctrine_n pertain_v to_o their_o faith_n and_o that_o all_o which_o be_v affirm_v by_o protestant_n be_v affirm_v by_o roman_a catholic_n and_o that_o this_o affirmative_a doctrine_n only_o do_v pertain_v to_o faith_n it_o will_v follow_v that_o protestant_n have_v no_o faith_n different_a from_o roman_a catholic_n out_o of_o which_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o those_o english_a protestant_n who_o shall_v hold_v some_o of_o the_o 39_o article_n and_o deny_v the_o rest_n may_v be_v say_v to_o have_v no_o faith_n different_a from_o those_o which_o subscribe_v to_o all_o the_o 39_o article_n which_o last_o consequence_n if_o master_n rogers_n grant_v i_o ask_v why_o the_o book_n of_o the_o canon_n do_v excommunicate_a ipso_fw-la facto_fw-la such_o half_a protestant_n why_o do_v their_o bishop_n imprison_v they_o as_o heretic_n and_o not_o account_v they_o member_n of_o their_o church_n and_o why_o may_v not_o roman_a catholic_n by_o as_o good_a or_o better_a right_o accownt_fw-la protestant_n who_o deny_v so_o many_o point_n define_v in_o both_o ancient_a and_o recent_a general_n counsel_n to_o be_v heretic_n excommunicaeed_o and_o no_o member_n of_o the_o ancient_a and_o present_a catholic_a church_n rogers_n that_o which_o you_o require_v here_o i_o perform_v in_o my_o first_o answer_n in_o my_o definition_n of_o a_o protestant_n or_o else_o it_o have_v be_v no_o good_a definition_n have_v it_o not_o contain_v all_o that_o be_v essential_a this_o you_o know_v well_o enough_o but_o because_o you_o have_v nothing_o to_o answer_v you_o will_v demand_v the_o same_o question_n again_o look_v into_o my_o definition_n there_o you_o shall_v find_v it_o and_o i_o make_v the_o same_o request_n unto_o you_o for_o a_o definition_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n and_o what_o point_v you_o hold_v to_o be_v fundamental_a to_o which_o you_o make_v no_o answer_n at_o all_o i_o there_o also_o undertake_v to_o prove_v all_o our_o affirmation_n which_o you_o deny_v so_o you_o do_v the_o like_a by_o your_o affirmation_n which_o we_o deny_v my_o word_n be_v these_o in_o my_o former_a answer_n roger_n in_o his_o first_o answer_n in_o all_o these_o i_o defend_v the_o negative_a and_o so_o it_o do_v belong_v to_o you_o to_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a which_o when_o you_o shall_v do_v by_o testimony_n of_o writer_n in_o all_o age_n i_o will_v yield_v unto_o you_o for_o you_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a the_o negative_a will_v fall_v of_o itself_o as_o for_o example_n the_o first_o instance_n of_o negation_n in_o our_o article_n be_v part_n of_o the_o sixth_o article_n concern_v those_o book_n of_o esdras_n tobit_n judith_n etc._n etc._n which_o we_o receive_v not_o for_o canonical_a you_o do_v the_o proof_n be_v on_o your_o side_n what_o i_o require_v of_o you_o i_o will_v perform_v on_o our_o side_n whatsoever_o be_v affirmative_a in_o our_o article_n i_o will_v maintain_v to_o be_v affirm_v and_o teach_v in_o all_o age_n as_o the_o 1_o 2_o 3_o 4_o 5_o article_n the_o affirmative_a part_n of_o the_o 6_o the_o 7_o 8_o and_o so_o in_o the_o rest_n or_o i_o will_v yield_v unto_o you_o give_v i_o instance_n what_o affirmation_n of_o our_o article_n you_o deny_v and_o i_o will_v prove_v it_o in_o all_o age_n and_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o set_v down_o withal_o which_o of_o your_o affirmative_a article_n you_o receive_v and_o whether_o we_o agree_v in_o the_o article_n of_o the_o creed_n or_o not_o i_o will_v do_v the_o like_a by_o you_o and_o give_v you_o a_o instance_n in_o our_o affirmative_n show_v i_o who_o in_o every_o age_n do_v receive_v the_o book_n of_o esdras_n maccabee_n tobit_n judith_n etc._n etc._n for_o canonical_a in_o the_o 1_o 2_o 3_o 4_o centurie_n of_o year_n this_o be_v one_o of_o the_o first_o point_n of_o your_o tridentine_a faith_n master_n fisher_n i_o desire_v you_o also_o for_o the_o avoid_n of_o confusion_n to_o deliver_v your_o opinion_n whether_o all_o the_o affirmative_a doctrine_n of_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n be_v matter_n of_o faith_n per_fw-la se_fw-la fundamental_a and_o necessary_a to_o be_v hold_v for_o salvation_n fide_fw-la explicita_fw-la i_o speak_v de_fw-fr adultis_fw-la quibus_fw-la facultas_fw-la discendidatur_fw-la thus_o far_o in_o my_o former_a answer_n to_o which_o you_o have_v make_v reply_n you_o have_v neither_o show_v which_o of_o our_o affirmative_a article_n you_o deny_v nor_o which_o you_o receive_v nor_o have_v you_o prove_v one_o instance_n i_o give_v of_o your_o affirmative_n nor_o as_o much_o as_o express_v what_o you_o hold_v for_o matter_n of_o faith_n but_o dissemble_v all_o this_o pass_v it_o over_o with_o silence_n unless_o you_o have_v think_v as_o the_o boy_n do_v by_o his_o bodged_a verse_n that_o what_o you_o write_v will_v never_o be_v read_v but_o that_o man_n will_v read_v the_o title_n and_o number_v the_o page_n and_o there_o find_v write_v over_o head_n master_n rogers_n weak_a ground_n master_n rogers_n weak_a argument_n will_v take_v the_o rest_n upon_o trust_n will_v you_o ever_o have_v put_v pen_n to_o paper_n and_o yet_o in_o matter_n of_o controversy_n never_o express_v what_o yourself_o hold_v nor_o tell_v we_o be_v request_v what_o your_o own_o faith_n be_v or_o to_o give_v a_o reason_n of_o your_o own_o faith_n nor_o to_o define_v your_o own_o church_n and_o answer_v formal_o and_o punctual_o to_o no_o one_o argument_n and_o frame_v no_o one_o argument_n of_o your_o own_o hominis_fw-la est_fw-la vehementèr_fw-la abutentis_fw-la &_o otio_fw-la &_o literis_fw-la that_o a_o man_n shall_v offer_v to_o write_v a_o tract_n and_o that_o in_o so_o sacred_a a_o profession_n as_o divinity_n and_o that_o in_o a_o question_n of_o so_o high_a a_o nature_n as_o these_o be_v what_o be_v the_o christian_a faith_n what_o be_v the_o visible_a church_n and_o herein_o not_o answer_v one_o question_n not_o to_o bring_v one_o distinction_n or_o definition_n or_o frame_v one_o argument_n in_o form_n or_o like_o a_o scholar_n be_v a_o mispending_a of_o time_n waste_v of_o paper_n and_o abuse_v the_o very_a name_n of_o learning_n divinity_n as_o all_o other_o science_n consist_v of_o principle_n and_o conclusion_n the_o principle_n receive_v on_o both_o side_n be_v the_o scripture_n to_o which_o you_o will_v add_v unwritten_a tradition_n you_o bring_v not_o one_o place_n of_o scripture_n to_o maintain_v those_o affirmative_a tenant_n of_o you_o which_o we_o deny_v you_o account_v article_n of_o faith_n and_o as_o for_o theological_a conclusion_n you_o infer_v none_o you_o frame_v no_o argument_n you_o make_v no_o syllogism_n you_o give_v no_o reason_n of_o your_o faith_n though_o saint_n peter_n require_v it_o who_o i_o think_v of_o all_o the_o apostle_n you_o do_v most_o respect_n what_o shall_v we_o think_v then_o but_o that_o you_o have_v neither_o scripture_n nor_o reason_n for_o your_o faith_n i_o mean_v in_o your_o new_a creed_n in_o which_o you_o dissent_v from_o we_o fisher_n i_o require_v withal_o that_o he_o give_v i_o a_o substantial_a ground_n well_o prove_v out_o of_o scripture_n why_o those_o particular_a point_n which_o he_o shall_v assign_v be_v point_n of_o protestant_a faith_n rather_o than_o other_o contain_v in_o the_o 39_o article_n if_o he_o say_v as_o he_o have_v already_o seem_v to_o say_v that_o none_o of_o their_o negative_a doctrine_n pertain_v to_o their_o faith_n and_o that_o all_o that_o be_v affirm_v by_o protestant_n be_v affirm_v by_o roman_a catholic_n and_o that_o this_o affirmative_a doctrine_n only_o do_v pertain_v to_o faith_n it_o will_v follow_v that_o protestant_n have_v no_o faith_n different_a from_o roman_a catholic_n rogers_n he_o call_v unto_o i_o to_o distinguish_v between_o point_n of_o protestant_a faith_n and_o other_o point_v contain_v in_o the_o 39_o article_n and_o yet_o in_o the_o next_o word_n he_o be_v fain_o to_o confess_v that_o i_o distinguish_v if_o he_o say_v as_o he_o have_v already_o seem_v to_o say_v that_o none_o of_o their_o negative_a doctrine_n pertain_v unto_o their_o faith_n this_o i_o have_v deliver_v in_o my_o first_o answer_n and_o yet_o he_o still_o call_v for_o it_o yet_o he_o must_v mince_v it_o a_o little_a and_o say_v i_o seem_v to_o say_v so_o great_a a_o friend_n he_o be_v to_o seem_a that_o he_o will_v never_o leave_v it_o know_v it_o to_o be_v essential_a to_o the_o definition_n of_o sophistry_n and_o a_o sophister_n you_o may_v have_v leave_v out_o your_o seem_n and_o write_v plain_o that_o i_o say_v so_o see_v in_o my_o answer_n to_o your_o first_o paper_n i_o spend_v never_o a_o page_n in_o explicate_v and_o exemplify_a this_o distinction_n and_o in_o my_o answer_n to_o your_o second_o paper_n which_o be_v deliver_v i_o as_o the_o work_n of_o five_o jesuit_n then_o conversant_a about_o gondamors_n house_n
i_o write_v thus_o as_o i_o do_v admonish_v master_n fisher_n to_o distinguish_v between_o affirmation_n and_o negation_n so_o i_o do_v these_o man_n and_o that_o faith_n be_v affirmation_n not_o negation_n for_o no_o man_n believe_v what_o he_o deni_v second_o in_o point_n of_o faith_n i_o like_v master_n fisher_n rule_n they_o that_o be_v in_o the_o affirmative_a must_v prove_v now_o all_o that_o we_o affirm_v they_o affirm_v as_o one_o god_n three_o person_n all_o the_o creed_n so_o that_o we_o need_v not_o prove_v what_o our_o adversary_n do_v confess_v but_o in_o those_o point_n in_o variance_n between_o we_o they_o be_v to_o prove_v because_o they_o be_v affirmative_a we_o negative_a as_o unwritten_a tradition_n latin_a service_n invocation_n of_o saint_n etc._n etc._n thus_o far_o in_o my_o former_a answer_n this_o be_v say_v plain_o this_o be_v not_o seem_v whereas_o you_o infer_v that_o see_v all_o which_o be_v affirm_v by_o protestant_n be_v affirm_v by_o roman_a catholic_n and_o this_o affirmative_a doctrine_n only_o do_v pertain_v to_o faith_n it_o will_v follow_v that_o protestant_n have_v no_o faith_n different_a from_o roman_a catholic_n i_o grant_v the_o consequence_n what_o be_v this_o to_o the_o question_n whether_o we_o be_v of_o the_o visible_a church_n or_o no_o this_o which_o you_o will_v infer_v do_v rather_o prove_v we_o to_o be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n than_o any_o way_n gainsay_v it_o thus_o they_o which_o have_v no_o other_o faith_n then_o that_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v part_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n but_o the_o protestant_n have_v no_o other_o faith_n then_o that_o of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n ergo_fw-la the_o protestant_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n the_o minor_a master_n fisher_n will_v infer_v out_o of_o my_o ground_n as_o if_o i_o will_v deny_v it_o no_o i_o grant_v it_o and_o so_o i_o hope_v will_v he_o the_o major_a than_o the_o conclusion_n must_v follow_v we_o differ_v from_o you_o in_o ecclesiastical_a doctrine_n and_o discipline_n which_o you_o term_v to_o be_v point_n of_o faith_n but_o we_o deny_v they_o be_v corruption_n of_o faith_n innovation_n idolatrous_a antichristian_a doctrine_n you_o will_v force_v they_o upon_o we_o as_o point_n of_o faith_n we_o refuse_v they_o because_o the_o scripture_n do_v not_o express_v they_o the_o primitve_n church_n do_v not_o know_v they_o and_o the_o great_a part_n of_o the_o christian_a church_n to_o this_o day_n do_v not_o approve_v they_o and_o your_o own_o writer_n be_v distract_v into_o many_o and_o divers_a opinion_n concern_v they_o 2_o paulus_n venet_n l._n 1._o &_o 2_o what_o antiquity_n have_v you_o for_o your_o half_a communion_n worship_v of_o image_n etc._n etc._n what_o universality_n see_v the_o church_n of_o greece_n of_o syria_n the_o georgian_o circassian_n mengiellians_n 76._o breitenbachius_n purgr_n c._n de_fw-fr jacobitis_fw-la vitrivius_n histor_n orientalis_fw-la c._n 76._o the_o moscovite_n and_o russian_n the_o christian_n of_o babylon_n of_o assyria_n mesopotamia_n parthia_n media_n of_o cassar_n samarcham_n charcham_n chinchtalis_n tanguth_n suchir_n ergimal_n tenduck_n caracam_n mangi_n the_o jacobit_n who_o sect_n be_v extend_v and_o spread_v abroad_o in_o some_o forty_o kingdom_n which_o i_o assure_v myself_o be_v more_o large_a than_o all_o the_o roman_a church_n do_v communicate_v in_o both_o kind_n worship_v not_o image_n deny_v purgatory_n and_o which_o with_o you_o be_v more_o than_o all_o the_o rest_n deny_v the_o pope_n supremacy_n so_o you_o have_v neither_o antiquity_n nor_o universality_n to_o which_o i_o may_v add_v nor_o consent_n among_o yourselves_o in_o those_o addition_n of_o you_o contain_v in_o your_o new_a creed_n as_o for_o one_o instance_n the_o council_n of_o trent_n have_v make_v the_o book_n of_o maccabee_n canonical_a ruffinus_n melitus_n sau._n origenes_n athanasius_n hilarius_n epiphanius_n cyrillus_n nazianzen_n amphiloch_n hieronymus_n ruffinus_n which_o be_v leave_v out_o of_o the_o canon_n by_o ten_o father_n that_o be_v i_o take_v it_o by_o all_o the_o father_n that_o die_v within_o 400_o year_n after_o the_o incarnation_n and_o write_v of_o that_o subject_n your_o nicholaus_fw-la lyranus_fw-la dionysius_n carthusianus_n hugo_n and_o thomas_n de_fw-fr Ê‹io_n cardinal_n whereof_o this_o last_o be_v one_o of_o the_o most_o learned_a that_o ever_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n have_v insomuch_o that_o in_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n it_o be_v say_v i_o think_v no_o man_n here_o do_v think_v himself_o so_o great_a a_o divine_a but_o that_o he_o may_v learn_v of_o cajetan_n all_o these_o i_o say_v of_o your_o side_n exclude_v those_o book_n from_o the_o canon_n as_o we_o do_v yet_o will_v you_o not_o say_v they_o be_v of_o another_o faith_n then_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n which_o you_o must_v say_v if_o your_o new_a creed_n and_o decree_n of_o counsel_n be_v point_n of_o faith_n as_o you_o here_o say_v and_o lest_o you_o shall_v escape_v with_o your_o wander_a discourse_n and_o your_o fly_v from_o the_o question_n i_o will_v press_v my_o argument_n in_o form_n whosoever_o deny_v the_o new_a creed_n or_o any_o article_n thereof_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n or_o any_o doctrine_n thereof_o be_v a_o heretic_n and_o deny_v the_o faith_n but_o carthusianus_n and_o thomas_n de_fw-fr Ê‹io_n cajetan_n both_o cardinal_n deny_v some_o article_n of_o the_o new_a creed_n and_o some_o doctrine_n of_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n ergo_fw-la lyra_n carthusianus_n and_o thomas_n de_fw-fr Ê‹io_n be_v heretic_n and_o deny_v the_o faith_n i_o be_o sure_a you_o will_v hold_v this_o conclusion_n to_o be_v false_a if_o so_o then_o one_o of_o the_o premise_n must_v be_v false_a not_o the_o minor_a ergo_fw-la the_o major_a which_o be_v your_o tenet_n whereby_o you_o will_v prove_v we_o to_o be_v heretic_n and_o to_o deny_v the_o faith_n fisher_n out_o of_o which_o it_o will_v further_o follow_v that_o those_o english_a protestant_n who_o shall_v hold_v some_o of_o the_o 39_o article_n and_o deny_v the_o rest_n may_v be_v say_v to_o have_v no_o faith_n different_a from_o those_o which_o subscribe_v to_o all_o the_o 39_o article_n rogers_n i_o grant_v it_o do_v follow_v so_o that_o those_o same_o article_n which_o they_o deny_v be_v not_o those_o article_n which_o concern_v the_o unity_n of_o the_o godhead_n the_o trinity_n of_o person_n and_o all_o those_o thing_n which_o be_v contain_v in_o the_o creed_n i_o say_v therefore_o they_o differ_v in_o ecclesiastical_a doctrine_n or_o discipline_n not_o in_o faith_n so_o they_o receive_v the_o scripture_n and_o apostle_n creed_n fisher_n which_o last_o consquence_n if_o master_n rogers_n grant_v i_o ask_v why_o the_o book_n of_o canon_n do_v excommunicate_a ipso_fw-la facto_fw-la such_o half_a protestant_n rogers_n they_o may_v be_v excommunicate_v for_o gain_v say_v ecclesiastical_a doctrine_n or_o the_o establish_a discipline_n of_o the_o church_n they_o may_v be_v excommunicate_v as_o erroneous_a shismaticks_n fisher_n why_o do_v their_o bishop_n imprison_v they_o as_o heretic_n and_o not_o account_v they_o member_n of_o their_o church_n rogers_n appeal_n andrew_n in_o his_o defence_n of_o the_o apology_n for_o the_o other_o bilson_n in_o his_o perpetual_a government_n of_o the_o church_n carleton_n against_o the_o appeal_n they_o must_v be_v imprison_v as_o schismatic_n our_o bishop_n do_v all_o profess_v that_o there_o be_v no_o puritan_n doctrine_n that_o the_o difference_n be_v only_o in_o matter_n of_o discipline_n they_o count_v they_o neither_o heretic_n nor_o whole_o exclude_v out_o of_o the_o church_n here_o you_o have_v suppose_v two_o falsehood_n in_o two_o line_n those_o learned_a protestant_n from_o beyond_o the_o sea_n who_o discipline_n do_v somewhat_o vary_v from_o we_o do_v testify_v that_o the_o purity_n of_o doctrine_n do_v flourish_v in_o england_n pure_o and_o sincere_o so_o beza_n from_o geneva_n that_o by_o queeene_v elizabeth_n come_v to_o the_o crown_n god_n again_o have_v restore_v his_o doctrine_n and_o true_a worship_n so_o zanchius_n that_o the_o whole_a compass_n of_o the_o world_n have_v never_o see_v any_o thing_n more_o to_o be_v wish_v then_o be_v her_o government_n so_o daneus_n fisher_n and_o why_o not_o roman_a catholic_n by_o as_o good_a or_o better_a right_a account_n protestant_n who_o deny_v so_o many_o point_n define_v in_o both_o ancient_a and_o recent_a general_n counsel_n to_o be_v heretic_n excommunicate_v and_o no_o member_n of_o the_o ancient_n and_o present_a catholic_n church_n rogers_n if_o we_o do_v the_o one_o you_o may_v do_v the_o other_o but_o i_o have_v show_v the_o falsehood_n of_o your_o supposition_n that_o we_o count_v they_o heretic_n who_o descent_n from_o we_o in_o any_o of_o our_o article_n they_o may_v be_v erroneous_a in_o a_o lesser_a nature_n than_o heresy_n &_o turbulent_a in_o those_o error_n they_o may_v be_v schismatic_n
proof_n by_o history_n can_v be_v effectual_a and_o satisfactory_a 1._o for_o the_o uncertainty_n of_o humane_a story_n 2._o because_o of_o their_o index_n expurgatorius_fw-la 3._o because_o they_o have_v forge_v many_o authority_n of_o counsel_n and_o father_n 4._o because_o they_o have_v except_v against_o all_o the_o ecclesiastical_a historian_n of_o the_o primitive_a church_n as_o falsary_n 91_o chap._n xiiii_o master_n fisher_n answer_v to_o master_n roger_n argument_n and_o ground_n 100_o chap._n xv._o the_o protestant_n faith_n contain_v in_o scripture_n the_o article_n of_o their_o faith_n in_o the_o apostle_n creed_n master_n roger_n argument_n maintain_v against_o master_n fisher_n first_o answer_n by_o deny_v the_o minor_a 103_o chap._n xvi_o master_n fisher_n second_o answer_n by_o change_v protestant_n into_o catholic_a refute_v retort_v a_o bold_a manifest_a falsehood_n of_o master_n fisher_n master_n fisher_n but_o half_a a_o papist_n 109_o chap._n xvii_o the_o romanist_n can_v bring_v no_o author_n for_o 400_o year_n for_o their_o half_a communion_n worship_v of_o image_n etc._n etc._n nor_o for_o any_o else_o in_o some_o age_n for_o want_n of_o wtiter_n in_o time_n of_o ignorance_n no_o council_n no_o good_a writer_n no_o good_a pope_n saculo_n 9_o in_o which_o 9_o age_n nothing_o be_v visible_a in_o the_o roman_a church_n but_o vile_a and_o lewd_a pope_n or_o intruder_n prove_v at_o large_a out_o of_o baronius_n 114_o chap._n xviii_o a_o threefold_a catalogue_n 1._o of_o latin_n 2._o of_o greek_a author_n 3._o of_o counsel_n who_o profess_v our_o faith_n maintain_v our_o sacrament_n but_o not_o the_o faith_n and_o sacrament_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n 119_o chap._n xix_o the_o distinction_n of_o doctrine_n accessary_a and_o fundamental_a of_o affirmation_n and_o negation_n 142_o chap._n xx._n the_o same_o distinction_n maintain_v john_n ellis_n his_o comparison_n the_o ape_n with_o his_o youngling_n the_o boy_n with_o his_o bodging_n verse_n decree_n of_o counsel_n not_o article_n of_o faith_n what_o make_v a_o heretic_n the_o anabaptist_n as_o he_o be_v suppose_v by_o master_n fisher_n a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n but_o membrum_fw-la non_fw-la sanum_fw-la 148_o chap._n xxi_o of_o doctrine_n fundamental_a the_o roman_a church_n the_o most_o corrupt_a part_n of_o the_o church_n 155_o chap._n xxii_o of_o baptise_v of_o child_n the_o error_n of_o the_o anabaptist_n in_o practice_n not_o in_o point_n of_o faith_n 159_o chap._n xxiii_o the_o papist_n affirm_v all_o our_o faith_n but_o differ_v in_o ecclesiastical_a doctrine_n which_o they_o term_v point_n of_o faith_n in_o which_o they_o want_v antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_v 164_o chap._n xxiiii_o the_o same_o ground_n of_o doctrine_n accessary_a and_o fundamental_a of_o affirmation_n and_o negation_n maintain_v 2._o negative_n in_o scripture_n pertain_v to_o faith_n per_fw-la accidens_fw-la not_o per_fw-la se_fw-la all_o thing_n reveal_v in_o scripture_n have_v equal_a truth_n but_o not_o equal_a profit_n equal_a necessity_n of_o be_v believe_v be_v know_v but_o not_o equal_a necessity_n to_o be_v know_v negative_n not_o reveal_v in_o scripture_n be_v res_fw-la fidei_fw-la neither_o per_fw-la se_fw-la nor_o per_fw-la accidens_fw-la the_o church_n of_o rome_n most_o hate_v and_o most_o hate_a by_o all_o church_n in_o the_o world_n as_o innovator_n schismatic_n and_o heretic_n the_o conclusion_n of_o the_o whole_a book_n 171_o recensui_fw-la hunc_fw-la librum_fw-la cujus_fw-la titulus_fw-la est_fw-la the_o protestant_n church_n existent_a etc._n etc._n in_o quo_fw-la nihil_fw-la reperio_fw-la bonis_fw-la moribus_fw-la aut_fw-la sanae_fw-la doctrinae_fw-la contrarium_fw-la quo_fw-la minus_fw-la imprimatur_fw-la modo_fw-la id_fw-la fiat_fw-la intra_fw-la annum_fw-la proximè_fw-la sequentem_fw-la secus_fw-la ista_fw-la licentia_fw-la effectu_fw-la carebit_fw-la johannes_n oliver_n reverendiss_n in_o christo_n patr._n &_o dom._n domino_fw-la arch._n cant._n capell_n dom._n exit_fw-la aedi_n lamb._n apr._n 15._o 1637._o the_o protestant_a church_n existent_a chap._n i._o master_n fisher_n observe_v neither_o art_n nor_o order_n in_o answer_v master_n rogers_n master_n fisher_n or_o whosoever_o you_o be_v that_o undertake_v for_o he_o if_o you_o will_v have_v do_v by_o i_o as_o i_o do_v by_o master_n fisher_n namely_o have_v set_v down_o all_o my_o ground_n and_o answer_v to_o they_o in_o particular_a as_o i_o do_v to_o master_n fisher_n proposition_n it_o may_v have_v give_v the_o reader_n better_a satisfaction_n who_o thereby_o may_v see_v whether_o we_o do_v agree_v in_o any_o thing_n that_o i_o have_v write_v or_o dissent_v in_o all_o whether_o you_o reject_v all_o those_o ground_n which_o i_o lay_v or_o admit_v of_o some_o as_o i_o do_v by_o your_o proposition_n approve_v some_o reject_v other_o loquor_fw-la in_o solutione_n argumentorum_fw-la dvae_fw-la tantum_fw-la solutiones_fw-la distinguendo_fw-la vel_fw-la tollendo_fw-la ego_fw-la autem_fw-la hic_fw-la de_fw-la propositionibus_fw-la loquor_fw-la and_o in_o those_o you_o reject_v if_o you_o will_v have_v answer_v to_o they_o in_o their_o place_n &_o punctual_o and_o not_o go_v rove_a so_o to_o puzzle_v the_o reader_n with_o disorder_n i_o take_v those_o proposition_n that_o be_v offer_v to_o i_o as_o they_o lay_v i_o answer_v to_o every_o period_n vel_fw-la concedendo_fw-la aut_fw-la distinguendo_fw-la aut_fw-la negando_fw-la either_o grant_v distinguish_a or_o deny_v and_o where_o i_o find_v any_o ambiguity_n in_o your_o term_n or_o sentence_n i_o desire_v you_o to_o explicate_v and_o clear_v the_o same_o which_o you_o have_v not_o do_v yet_o you_o know_v that_o no_o disputation_n may_v be_v undertake_v no_o argument_n frame_v no_o treatise_n compose_v without_o this_o no_o not_o so_o much_o as_o one_o bare_a proposition_n or_o sentence_n may_v subsist_v with_o aequivocation_n and_o amphibologie_n word_n or_o sentence_n of_o double_a signification_n and_o doubtful_a sense_n until_o they_o be_v clear_v by_o explication_n and_o distinction_n this_o you_o know_v to_o be_v the_o advice_n and_o practice_v of_o the_o philosopher_n and_o divine_n which_o have_v write_v but_o such_o be_v your_o term_n &_o proposition_n as_o that_o they_o seem_v to_o be_v make_v of_o purpose_n in_o ambiguous_a word_n or_o contexture_n so_o to_o leave_v open_a some_o start_a hole_n or_o evasion_n and_o answer_v your_o adversary_n out_o of_o order_n to_o draw_v a_o curtain_n before_o the_o understanding_n not_o only_o of_o the_o reader_n but_o also_o of_o your_o adversary_n disorder_v aristot_n elench_v 2._o we_o be_v ignorant_a of_o what_o we_o former_o know_v when_o it_o be_v misplace_v and_o disorder_v and_o yourself_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d thus_o have_v i_o be_v serve_v by_o other_o beside_o you_o be_v not_o this_o catch_n at_o a_o word_n here_o and_o pass_v by_o a_o whole_a side_n of_o a_o leaf_n elsewhere_o without_o say_v one_o word_n to_o it_o afterward_o leap_v back_o a_o leaf_n or_o two_o and_o snarl_v at_o a_o argument_n or_o snap_v at_o a_o distinction_n and_o so_o away_o be_v not_o this_o i_o say_v like_o the_o dog_n drink_v of_o nilus_n lap_v a_o little_a and_o run_v away_o lap_n again_o and_o run_v away_o this_o be_v apply_v by_o one_o to_o antony_n fly_v after_o cleopatra_n from_o the_o battle_n at_o actium_n who_o be_v ask_v quid_fw-la agit_fw-fr antonius_n answer_v quod_fw-la canis_fw-la ad_fw-la nilum_n lambit_fw-la &_o fugit_fw-la so_o much_o be_v he_o besot_v with_o that_o harlot_n thus_o you_o the_o champion_n of_o that_o purple_a harlot_n that_o sit_v upon_o the_o seven_o hill_n fight_v her_o quarrel_n a_o snatch_n and_o away_o a_o snap_n and_o be_v go_v or_o if_o you_o make_v a_o short_a stand_n you_o will_v but_o show_v your_o tooth_n grin_v snarl_v but_o hardly_o bite_v that_o i_o may_v draw_v you_o from_o this_o course_n of_o disorder_n i_o will_v put_v down_o what_o master_n fisher_n propose_v what_o i_o answer_v and_o then_o what_o this_o author_n reply_v or_o where_o he_o do_v not_o reply_v chap._n ii_o the_o occasion_n and_o time_n when_o this_o author_n master_n rogers_n be_v first_o interest_v in_o this_o matter_n att_n that_o time_n when_o our_o now_o sovereign_a be_v in_o spain_n a_o gentleman_n deliver_v i_o those_o proposition_n follow_v in_o the_o presence_n of_o divers_a i_o be_v then_o in_o london_n 100_o mile_n from_o my_o dwell_n and_o my_o book_n that_o night_n i_o deliver_v this_o answer_n follow_v after_o master_n fisher_n proposition_n the_o gent_n be_v then_o almost_o become_v romanist_n have_v be_v not_o many_o day_n before_o at_o mass_n in_o the_o spanish_a ambassador_n house_n and_o master_n fisher_n come_v to_o this_o gent_n chamber_n leave_v those_o proposition_n with_o he_o the_o like_a verbatìm_fw-la the_o right_o honourable_a earl_n of_o o._n do_v show_v i_o say_v that_o it_o be_v all_o write_v with_o master_n fisher_n own_o hand_n the_o proposition_n be_v these_o fisher_n it_o be_v grant_v that_o there_o must_v be_v a_o visible_a church_n in_o
all_o age_n of_o which_o all_o sort_n must_v learn_v faith_n necessary_a to_o salvation_n roger_n in_o his_o first_o answer_n the_o perpetual_a visibilitie_n of_o the_o church_n i_o acknowledge_v but_o i_o pray_v you_o set_v i_o down_o what_o a_o visible_a church_n be_v and_o what_o you_o mean_v by_o these_o word_n all_o sort_n whether_o child_n die_v before_o they_o come_v to_o year_n of_o discretion_n to_o learn_v this_o faith_n be_v not_o after_o baptism_n part_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n second_o what_o you_o mean_v by_o learn_v whether_o 1._o a_o actual_a explicit_a knowledge_n or_o 2._o a_o habitual_a only_a implicit_a knowledge_n three_o what_o point_v of_o faith_n you_o hold_v necessary_a to_o salvation_n roger_n second_o answer_n that_o some_o ground_n must_v be_v lay_v for_o all_o discourse_n i_o think_v my_o adversary_n will_v not_o deny_v see_v all_o discourse_n be_v a_o draw_v of_o conclusion_n from_o some_o precedent_n receive_v premise_n whether_o of_o principle_n natural_o manifest_a and_o clear_a of_o themselves_o or_o of_o some_o suppose_v receive_v and_o agree_v upon_o some_o ground_n i_o lay_v which_o mr._n fisher_n or_o his_o second_o here_o will_v have_v the_o reader_n believe_v he_o have_v refute_v for_o almost_o every_o page_n have_v this_o title_n master_n rogers_n most_o weak_a ground_n but_o how_o effectual_o he_o have_v perform_v it_o shall_v appear_v in_o his_o place_n the_o first_o thing_n i_o request_v here_o of_o m._n fisher_n be_v to_o define_v a_o visible_a church_n and_o to_o explain_v a_o ambiguous_a phrase_n both_o as_o necessary_a ground_n as_o may_v be_v for_o discourse_n for_o ambiguity_n be_v thicket_n wherein_o sophister_n do_v hide_v themselves_o and_o the_o first_o grand_a fallacy_n which_o they_o use_v who_o will_v deceive_v other_o and_o do_v often_o deceive_v themselves_o neither_o be_v the_o respondent_fw-la bind_v by_o rule_n of_o art_n to_o answer_v such_o a_o opponent_n 2._o aristot_n elench_v 2._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d it_o be_v clear_a that_o a_o aequivocator_n deserve_v no_o answer_n the_o other_o ground_n which_o i_o request_v he_o to_o lay_v be_v a_o definition_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n to_o this_o the_o author_n of_o this_o treatise_n give_v no_o answer_n although_o if_o he_o have_v any_o school-learning_n he_o must_v confess_v that_o this_o be_v the_o first_o ground_n to_o be_v lay_v and_o best_a mean_n to_o begin_v any_o treatise_n to_o attain_v exact_a knowledge_n of_o what_o we_o inquire_v after_o and_o to_o resolve_v all_o doubt_n that_o may_v arise_v without_o this_o all_o disputation_n be_v full_a of_o difficulty_n say_v arist_n this_o be_v the_o scope_n of_o all_o logic_n say_v zabarel_n your_o learned_a logic_n and_o philosophy_n reader_n of_o milan_n you_o propose_v a_o question_n whether_o the_o protestant_n be_v a_o church_n what_o more_o requisite_a here_o than_o to_o explicate_v your_o term_n and_o define_v a_o church_n which_o i_o former_o request_v you_o to_o do_v and_o now_o again_o make_v the_o same_o motion_n fisher_n the_o question_n propound_v by_o m._n fisher_n at_o the_o entreaty_n of_o a_o gentleman_n who_o desire_v satisfaction_n be_v whether_o the_o protestant_a church_n be_v visible_a in_o all_o age_n especial_o in_o the_o age_n before_o luther_n and_o whether_o the_o name_n of_o the_o professor_n thereof_o may_v be_v show_v in_o all_o age_n out_o of_o good_a author_n roger_n in_o his_o first_o answer_n a_o church_n profess_v the_o same_o faith_n which_o the_o protestant_n now_o do_v be_v visible_a in_o all_o age_n and_o i_o do_v undertake_v to_o prove_v it_o out_o of_o good_a author_n roger_n in_o his_o second_o answer_n to_o this_o m._n fisher_n or_o his_o second_o have_v make_v no_o reply_n not_o as_o much_o as_o to_o say_v whether_o that_o will_v serve_v their_o turn_n or_o whether_o i_o must_v show_v the_o name_n of_o protestant_n in_o all_o age_n if_o this_o late_a then_o may_v i_o require_v of_o m._n fisher_n or_o any_o other_o jesuit_n to_o show_v i_o the_o name_n of_o jesuit_n in_o all_o age_n who_o name_n begin_v within_o these_o hundred_o year_n or_o not_o much_o more_o and_o for_o defect_n of_o such_o name_n argue_v against_o they_o thus_o they_o who_o be_v of_o the_o church_n can_v show_v their_o name_n to_o have_v be_v in_o all_o age_n since_o christ_n but_o no_o man_n can_v show_v the_o name_n of_o jesuit_n to_o have_v be_v in_o all_o age_n since_o christ_n ergo_fw-la no_o jesuite_n be_v of_o the_o church_n if_o i_o shall_v call_v upon_o you_o for_o the_o name_n of_o jesuit_n i_o shall_v serve_v you_o as_o you_o serve_v we_o but_o i_o will_v not_o use_v such_o poor_a miserable_a shift_n as_o these_o which_o be_v no_o other_o than_o the_o cavil_n of_o man_n that_o have_v nothing_o to_o say_v that_o be_v worth_a the_o hear_n as_o i_o will_v after_o show_v in_o his_o due_a place_n let_v this_o suffice_v for_o this_o place_n i_o profess_v that_o if_o master_n fisher_n or_o any_o other_o jesuit_n can_v show_v i_o that_o a_o church_n profess_v the_o same_o faith_n which_o the_o jesuit_n now_o do_v be_v visible_a in_o all_o age_n i_o will_v be_v of_o their_o faith_n though_o they_o can_v not_o show_v i_o the_o name_n of_o jesuit_n in_o those_o former_a time_n fisher_n chap._n iii_o m._n fisher_n undertake_v to_o defend_v the_o negative_a part_n so_o as_o it_o do_v belong_v to_o his_o adversary_n to_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a master_n fisher_n explicate_v the_o meaning_n of_o his_o question_n to_o be_v that_o first_o his_o adversary_n shall_v set_v down_o name_n of_o man_n in_o all_o age_n who_o they_o think_v to_o be_v protestant_n second_o that_o they_o shall_v show_v out_o of_o good_a author_n proof_n that_o they_o be_v protestant_n three_o that_o they_o shall_v defend_v they_o to_o hold_v nothing_o contrary_a to_o the_o doctrine_n of_o protestant_n contain_v in_o the_o 39_o article_n unto_o which_o all_o english_a minister_n be_v swear_v roger_n in_o his_o first_o answer_n to_o the_o first_o i_o will_v show_v the_o name_n of_o such_o as_o maintain_v our_o now_o faith_n in_o all_o age_n and_o bring_v good_a proof_n to_o the_o second_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n can_v produce_v father_n in_o all_o age_n who_o do_v not_o contradict_v the_o council_n of_o trent_n in_o some_o doctrine_n establish_v in_o the_o say_a council_n to_o the_o three_o it_o be_v no_o prejudice_n to_o our_o faith_n if_o the_o same_o author_n do_v differ_v from_o we_o in_o other_o opinion_n not_o concern_v faith_n as_o long_o as_o they_o maintain_v our_o faith_n fisher_n his_o question_n whether_o the_o protestant_a church_n be_v visible_a in_o all_o age_n especial_o in_o the_o age_n before_o luther_n and_o whether_o the_o name_n of_o the_o professor_n thereof_o may_v be_v show_v in_o all_o age_n out_o of_o good_a author_n rogers_n mr._n fisher_n you_o here_o confound_v two_o proposition_n or_o question_n deliver_v they_o both_o as_o one_o whereas_o they_o be_v very_o different_a and_o may_v subsist_v the_o one_o without_o the_o other_o for_o a_o protestant_a church_n may_v be_v extant_a in_o all_o age_n and_o yet_o no_o name_n of_o the_o professor_n to_o be_v find_v for_o every_o age_n and_o this_o existence_n of_o such_o a_o church_n may_v be_v prove_v by_o general_a testimony_n of_o history_n as_o that_o the_o christian_a religion_n be_v here_o in_o britain_n before_o the_o come_n of_o augustine_n the_o monk_n 2._o hist._n angl._n l._n 2._o c._n 2._o may_v be_v prove_v out_o of_o beda_n who_o make_v mention_n of_o british_a bishop_n but_o name_v none_o of_o they_o 18._o in_o vita_fw-la constantini_n lib._n 3._o c._n 18._o here_o m._n fisher_n and_o his_o second_o will_v say_v show_v i_o their_o name_n or_o i_o will_v not_o grant_v there_o be_v any_o let_v we_o ascend_v a_o little_o high_a we_o may_v prove_v it_o out_o of_o eusebius_n 300_o year_n before_o that_o this_o country_n be_v christian_a here_o mr._n fisher_n will_v say_v show_v the_o name_n of_o those_o christian_n or_o i_o will_v not_o believe_v it_o so_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o these_o be_v two_o question_n 17._o arist._n elench_v 2._o c._n 17._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d it_o be_v not_o well_o to_o require_v one_o answer_n to_o two_o question_n this_o be_v as_o if_o a_o man_n shall_v ask_v whether_o john_n a_o nox_n and_o john_n a_o style_n be_v at_o home_n when_o the_o one_o be_v forth_o the_o other_o at_o home_n and_o enjoin_v the_o respondent_fw-la to_o answer_n to_o both_o at_o once_o yea_o or_o no_o by_o which_o answer_n he_o must_v speak_v a_o untruth_n because_o the_o question_n be_v two_o real_o distinct_a this_o be_v a_o trick_n of_o sophistry_n m._n fisher_n let_v i_o give_v you_o one_o instance_n more_o if_o i_o shall_v ask_v m._n fisher_n whether_o
their_o society_n their_o own_o testimony_n not_o the_o testimony_n of_o god_n unless_o thou_o know_v thyself_o not_o in_o the_o word_n of_o cavil_v people_n but_o in_o the_o testimony_n of_o my_o book_n in_o the_o scripture_n have_v we_o learn_v to_o know_v christ_n in_o the_o scripture_n have_v we_o learn_v to_o know_v his_o church_n we_o have_v these_o scripture_n common_a to_o we_o both_o and_o why_o out_o of_o these_o do_v not_o we_o hold_v christ_n and_o his_o church_n common_a to_o we_o both_o and_o again_o behold_v the_o scripture_n common_a to_o both_o lo_o where_o we_o have_v know_v christ_n lo_o where_o we_o have_v know_v his_o church_n reflect_v now_o upon_o what_o we_o have_v cite_v out_o of_o this_o incomparable_a father_n we_o may_v observe_v how_o plain_o how_o frequent_o how_o persevere_o he_o maintain_v that_o this_o question_n concern_v the_o church_n may_v be_v prove_v plain_o manifest_o clear_o out_o of_o scripture_n that_o he_o will_v not_o have_v man_n use_v humane_a testimony_n in_o this_o question_n and_o they_o which_o do_v use_v humane_a testimony_n herein_o and_o not_o divine_a stand_v upon_o uncertainty_n carbo_n aquin._n 1._o q._n 1._o art_n 8._o carbo_n to_o the_o same_o purpose_n the_o schoolman_n say_v that_o humane_a reason_n in_o hac_fw-la doctrina_fw-la non_fw-la valent_fw-la ad_fw-la probandum_fw-la be_v not_o of_o force_n to_o prove_v yet_o it_o use_v humane_a reason_n not_o to_o prove_v faith_n and_o what_o it_o believe_v but_o to_o declare_v other_o thing_n as_o a_o foreign_a argument_n and_o probable_a but_o it_o use_v divine_a authority_n as_o a_o proper_a and_o necessary_a argument_n second_o let_v we_o observe_v that_o this_o father_n write_v upon_o this_o question_n so_o many_o book_n as_o make_v more_o than_o half_a a_o great_a tome_n yet_o never_o use_v any_o other_o argument_n in_o those_o book_n but_o scripture_n he_o never_o call_v upon_o his_o adversary_n to_o show_v name_n of_o their_o professor_n in_o all_o age_n nor_o do_v he_o attempt_v that_o for_o himself_o but_o choose_v rather_o to_o cite_v the_o same_o scripture_n twenty_o time_n at_o least_o in_o several_a book_n of_o that_o subject_n out_o of_o which_o place_n i_o will_v collect_v two_o argument_n first_o desire_v the_o reader_n to_o observe_v that_o thing_n express_o contain_v in_o scripture_n and_o thing_n thence_o deduce_v be_v of_o a_o different_a nature_n these_o late_a inferior_a to_o those_o those_o be_v principle_n these_o be_v but_o conclusion_n those_o depend_v upon_o supernatural_a light_n of_o divine_a revelation_n these_o conclusion_n be_v ground_v upon_o those_o divine_a principle_n which_o man_n apprehend_v by_o faith_n and_o then_o do_v search_v and_o find_v the_o illation_n and_o consequence_n of_o these_o conclusion_n by_o the_o light_n of_o natural_a reason_n improve_v by_o industry_n and_o refine_v by_o art_n i_o do_v not_o say_v that_o i_o can_v show_v in_o scripture_n that_o the_o protestant_n be_v the_o true_a church_n which_o be_v to_o make_v it_o a_o point_n of_o faith_n but_o out_o of_o scripture_n i_o can_v prove_v that_o the_o protestant_n be_v a_o church_n and_o so_o make_v it_o a_o theological_a conclusion_n and_o the_o argument_n demonstration_n because_o draw_v out_o of_o the_o proper_a principle_n of_o theologie_n or_o divinity_n thus_o 1._o argument_n they_o who_o profess_v that_o faith_n which_o be_v preach_v through_o the_o world_n be_v a_o true_a christian_a church_n but_o the_o protestant_n hold_v the_o apostle_n creed_n and_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o apostle_n do_v profess_v that_o faith_n which_o be_v preach_v through_o the_o world_n ergo_fw-la the_o protestant_n be_v a_o true_a christian_a church_n 2._o argument_n they_o who_o hold_v communion_n and_o acknowledge_v themselves_o to_o be_v a_o part_n of_o that_o church_n which_o be_v disperse_v through_o the_o world_n be_v a_o true_a church_n but_o the_o protestant_n do_v hold_v communion_n and_o acknowledge_v themselves_o to_o be_v a_o part_n of_o that_o church_n which_o be_v disperse_v through_o the_o world_n ergo_fw-la the_o protestant_n be_v a_o true_a church_n second_o out_o of_o the_o same_o principle_n i_o will_v prove_v that_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v not_o the_o church_n as_o exclude_v all_o other_o church_n thus_o 1._o argument_n the_o church_n do_v profess_v that_o faith_n which_o be_v preach_v and_o receive_v through_o the_o world_n the_o roman_a church_n hold_v a_o new_a creed_n of_o unwritten_a tradition_n transubstantiation_n worship_v of_o image_n etc._n etc._n do_v therein_o not_o profess_v that_o faith_n which_o be_v preach_v and_o receive_v through_o the_o world_n ergo_fw-la the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v not_o the_o church_n 2._o argument_n the_o christian_a church_n have_v many_o more_o child_n than_o the_o church_n of_o the_o jew_n but_o the_o roman_a church_n have_v not_o more_o child_n than_o the_o church_n of_o the_o jew_n ergo_fw-la the_o roman_a church_n be_v not_o the_o christian_a church_n the_o major_a saint_n austin_n do_v bring_v out_o of_o scripture_n in_o those_o word_n the_o barren_a have_v many_o more_o child_n than_o she_o that_o have_v a_o husband_n the_o minor_a will_v appear_v if_o we_o say_v unto_o these_o romanist●_n as_o saint_n austin_n do_v to_o the_o donatist_n let_v they_o compare_v their_o multitude_n with_o the_o multitude_n of_o the_o jew_n disperse_v over_o the_o world_n and_o they_o shall_v see_v how_o few_o they_o be_v in_o comparison_n of_o they_o the_o jew_n be_v by_o the_o calculation_n of_o the_o inquiry_n the_o brirewood_n in_o his_o inquiry_n most_o learned_a in_o history_n and_o geography_n as_o many_o as_o will_v people_n all_o europe_n the_o roman_a church_n when_o it_o be_v entire_a be_v not_o much_o more_o than_o half_a europe_n if_o so_o much_o and_o now_o have_v lose_v half_a that_o it_o be_v be_v far_o less_o this_o i_o shall_v enlarge_v moreful_o hereafter_o when_o i_o shall_v come_v to_o maintain_v my_o former_a argument_n now_o i_o address_v myself_o to_o master_n fisher_n reply_v chap._n vi_o fisher_n concern_v m._n rogers_n his_o answer_n to_o m._n fisher_n five_o proposition_n by_o this_o which_o have_v be_v say_v against_o master_n bernard_n his_o look_n beyond_o luther_n it_o may_v be_v easy_o see_v that_o m._n rogers_n have_v not_o sufficient_o answer_v m._n fisher_n question_n aforesaid_a for_o with_o a_o bold_a audacity_n he_o name_v for_o protestant_n famous_o know_v roman_n catholic_n to_o wit_n these_o writer_n of_o the_o first_o seven_o hundred_o year_n and_o among_o other_o even_a saint_n bede_n who_o write_n and_o profession_n of_o life_n be_v a_o profess_a roman_a catholic_a monk_n show_v he_o to_o be_v no_o protestant_a rogers_n i_o can_v see_v no_o such_o thing_n in_o what_o you_o have_v say_v against_o mr._n bernard_n neither_o have_v you_o say_v any_o thing_n there_o which_o may_v touch_v i_o but_o you_o have_v the_o same_o in_o this_o your_o treatise_n against_o i_o you_o have_v write_v not_o half_o a_o sheet_n in_o reply_n to_o mr._n bernard_n book_n of_o eight_o or_o nine_o sheet_n and_o yet_o you_o will_v have_v man_n see_v in_o your_o short_a reply_n to_o he_o a_o confutation_n also_o of_o what_o i_o have_v write_v i_o have_v read_v that_o alexander_n the_o great_a see_v a_o company_n of_o indian_a ape_n march_v along_o a_o hill_n side_n take_v they_o to_o be_v a_o army_n of_o enemy_n but_o when_o he_o come_v near_o he_o find_v they_o to_o be_v as_o they_o be_v poor_a silly_a fearful_a ape_n that_o run_v into_o the_o wood_n to_o hide_v themselves_o he_o that_o think_v he_o see_v in_o your_o reply_n to_o mr._n bernard_n a_o confutation_n of_o he_o or_o i_o be_v as_o much_o mistake_v as_o alexander_n be_v in_o the_o ape_n the_o reason_n be_v he_o look_v a_o far_o off_o as_o alexander_n do_v when_o he_o take_v they_o for_o arm_a man_n but_o he_o that_o come_v near_o unto_o your_o write_n view_v and_o examine_v they_o diligent_o shall_v find_v that_o there_o be_v no_o army_n there_o be_v no_o arm_a man_n no_o sword_n no_o weapon_n no_o scripture_n no_o reason_n to_o wound_v we_o you_o strut_v and_o stalk_v a_o far_o off_o but_o when_o we_o draw_v near_o you_o fly_v into_o the_o thicket_n of_o some_o dark_a speech_n ambiguous_a phrase_n aequivocate_a term_n like_o those_o liguranes_n quos_fw-la major_a aliquantò_fw-la labour_n erat_fw-la invenire_fw-la quam_fw-la vincere_fw-la it_o be_v more_o labour_n to_o find_v you_o out_o then_o to_o conquer_v you_o mr._n bernard_n i_o doubt_v not_o be_v able_a to_o answer_v any_o thing_n that_o you_o have_v object_v unto_o he_o if_o he_o think_v such_o poor_a objection_n of_o you_o to_o be_v worthy_a of_o any_o reply_n i_o will_v address_v myself_o unto_o what_o you_o object_n unto_o i_o you_o say_v that_o i_o have_v not_o sufficient_o answer_v mr._n fisher_n
my_o ground_n and_o yet_o write_v in_o the_o top_n of_o your_o book_n for_o divers_a page_n these_o word_n master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a ground_n viz._n pag._n 26_o 27._o and_o in_o both_o these_o page_n not_o one_o word_n speak_v of_o my_o ground_n thus_o will_v you_o persuade_v your_o silly_a proselyte_n who_o must_v read_v no_o more_o than_o the_o title_n of_o your_o book_n that_o you_o have_v answer_v all_o when_o you_o have_v answer_v nothing_o likewise_o pag._n 22._o you_o write_v over_o head_n master_n rogers_n his_o most_o weak_a argument_n whereas_o there_o be_v not_o in_o that_o page_n any_o one_o argument_n of_o i_o you_o can_v pass_v all_o those_o ground_n of_o i_o with_o a_o trick_n of_o rhetoric_n to_o take_v notice_n of_o that_o which_o you_o can_v answer_v unto_o and_o in_o stead_n of_o that_o must_v strike_v at_o a_o slander_n by_o namely_o our_o book_n of_o article_n say_v that_o they_o be_v more_o crafty_o compose_v then_o the_o article_n of_o other_o protestant_a church_n which_o i_o deny_v as_o most_o false_a neither_o need_v it_o any_o further_a reply_n be_v a_o indefinite_a exception_n and_o as_o it_o seem_v speak_v of_o purpose_n to_o draw_v i_o from_o that_o matter_n propose_v to_o go_v a_o rove_a as_o yourself_o have_v do_v with_o impertinent_a discourse_n fisher_n i_o may_v therefore_o without_o more_o ado_n conclude_v that_o master_n rogers_n have_v not_o sufficient_o answer_v master_n fisher_n question_v rogers_n with_o as_o little_a ado_n as_o you_o can_v infer_v abrogate_a a_o law_n from_o that_o word_n which_o be_v the_o most_o proper_a for_o enact_v the_o same_o 13._o decret_n 1._o part_n do_v 4._o c._n 4._o lugduni_n edit_n anno_o 1584._o jussu_fw-la greg._n 13._o statuimus_fw-la id_fw-la est_fw-la abrogamus_fw-la we_o do_v enact_v it_o that_o be_v we_o do_v cancel_v it_o or_o as_o you_o say_v the_o roman_a church_n that_o be_v the_o catholic_a church_n a_o part_n that_o be_v a_o whole_a a_o piece_n of_o man_n that_o be_v a_o whole_a man_n this_o be_v quidlibet_fw-la ex_fw-la quolibet_fw-la from_o the_o staff_n to_o the_o corner_n fisher_n in_o regard_n he_o have_v neither_o name_v protestant_n in_o all_o age_n neither_o have_v he_o sufficient_o prove_v they_o he_o name_v to_o be_v protestant_n but_o by_o such_o false_a supposition_n and_o bad_a definition_n and_o such_o other_o shift_n as_o any_o arrian_n or_o anabaptist_n or_o whatsoever_o other_o absurd_a sectary_n may_v by_o the_o like_a defend_v the_o same_o person_n to_o have_v be_v of_o their_o religion_n or_o sect._n rogers_n the_o question_n be_v whether_o the_o protestant_a church_n be_v visible_a in_o all_o age_n this_o i_o prove_v by_o divers_a argument_n to_o which_o you_o have_v make_v such_o answer_n as_o we_o shall_v see_v anon_o to_o this_o i_o have_v not_o sufficient_o answer_v say_v you_o in_o regard_n 1._o i_o have_v not_o name_v protestant_n in_o all_o age_n as_o if_o there_o be_v no_o other_o mean_n to_o decide_v the_o question_n but_o this_o no_o other_o proof_n than_o induction_n or_o that_o my_o adversary_n propose_v the_o question_n shall_v limit_v i_o what_o kind_n of_o proof_n i_o must_v use_v as_o if_o the_o king_n of_o france_n denounce_v war_n against_o the_o king_n of_o england_n shall_v send_v he_o word_n if_o you_o will_v war_n against_o i_o you_o must_v do_v it_o by_o land_n not_o by_o sea_n and_o you_o must_v land_n in_o picardy_n not_o in_o normandy_n or_o britain_n or_o poitou_n and_o you_o must_v choose_v your_o place_n of_o battle_n in_o large_a plain_n and_o fight_v with_o horse_n not_o with_o foot_n and_o bring_v no_o archer_n into_o the_o field_n or_o else_o confess_v that_o you_o be_v no_o warrior_n your_o englishman_n scot_n and_o britain_n no_o soldier_n your_o proceed_n not_o justifiable_a by_o the_o law_n of_o nation_n will_v charles_n of_o france_n the_o frentick_a have_v send_v such_o a_o message_n such_o a_o challenge_n to_o our_o henry_n the_o five_o yet_o master_n fisher_n say_v if_o any_o protestant_n will_v answer_v the_o premise_n let_v he_o set_v down_o name_n of_o protestant_a preacher_n in_o all_o age_n who_o teach_v the_o people_n protestant_n doctrine_n in_o every_o several_a age_n or_o else_o confess_v that_o there_o be_v no_o such_o before_o luther_n or_o at_o least_o not_o in_o age_n to_o be_v find_v in_o history_n as_o if_o i_o shall_v say_v if_o any_o jesuit_n will_v answer_v i_o let_v he_o show_v i_o the_o name_n of_o jesuit_n preacher_n in_o all_o age_n who_o teach_v the_o people_n jesuitical_a doctrine_n in_o every_o several_a age_n or_o else_o confess_v that_o there_o be_v no_o such_o before_o ignatius_n laiola_n we_o will_v deal_v with_o you_o as_o edward_n the_o three_o with_o philip_n who_o present_v himself_o before_o paris_n say_v he_o do_v call_v upon_o he_o to_o open_a fight_n in_o the_o view_n of_o france_n and_o before_o his_o great_a theatre_n of_o paris_n he_o do_v not_o limit_v he_o to_o any_o one_o kind_a of_o fight_n or_o weapon_n he_o leave_v he_o to_o his_o choice_n so_o do_v we_o with_o you_o prove_v yourselves_o to_o be_v the_o only_a church_n and_o that_o all_o be_v exclude_v from_o salvation_n unless_o they_o hold_v communion_n with_o and_o subjection_n to_o your_o pope_n prove_v it_o by_o any_o testimony_n of_o scripture_n or_o demonstration_n from_o the_o principle_n of_o scripture_n or_o reason_n frame_v your_o argument_n as_o you_o think_v best_o for_o your_o own_o advantage_n there_o be_v many_o place_n for_o argument_n viz._n 24._o we_o exclude_v none_o but_o will_v admit_v they_o in_o their_o degree_n some_o as_o necessary_a some_o as_o probable_a these_o be_v place_n of_o art_n or_o learning_n yet_o you_o will_v exclude_v we_o from_o all_o these_o and_o bring_v we_o ad_fw-la loca_fw-la inartificiata_fw-la to_o testimony_n and_o whereas_o those_o be_v divina_fw-la of_o god_n or_o man._n vel_fw-la humana_fw-la of_o god_n or_o man._n you_o will_v have_v none_o but_o the_o late_a which_o can_v be_v but_o weak_a there_o be_v no_o historian_n or_o father_n but_o may_v be_v deceive_v and_o very_o few_o against_o who_o you_o have_v not_o take_v some_o exception_n of_o all_o the_o form_n of_o argue_v a_o syllogism_n be_v that_o principal_a form_n which_o alone_o have_v constringencie_n and_o necessary_a illation_n and_o to_o which_o all_o other_o form_n as_o be_v imperfect_a be_v reduce_v this_o we_o must_v not_o meddle_v with_o but_o bring_v exemplum_fw-la or_o inductio_fw-la or_o at_o the_o most_o a_o enthymeme_n which_o be_v curtatus_fw-la &_o imperfectus_fw-la syllogismus_fw-la all_o of_o they_o unsufficient_a parere_fw-la scientiam_fw-la to_o work_v and_o produce_v true_a knowledge_n and_o yet_o we_o must_v use_v only_o these_o this_o be_v as_o if_o the_o king_n of_o france_n shall_v have_v send_v to_o our_o king_n that_o when_o he_o fight_v he_o shall_v not_o put_v on_o his_o best_a armour_n nor_o use_v his_o best_a sword_n saint_n augustine_n in_o this_o question_n exclude_v humane_a testimony_n yet_o you_o will_v have_v nothing_o else_o non_fw-la audiamus_fw-la haec_fw-la dicit_fw-la ambrose_n augustinus_n etc._n etc._n sed_fw-la haec_fw-la dicit_fw-la dominus_fw-la your_o school_n also_o grant_v that_o scripture_n be_v the_o principle_n in_o theology_n and_o all_o demonstration_n must_v be_v ex_fw-la proprijs_fw-la principijs_fw-la out_o of_o proper_a principle_n yet_o you_o will_v none_o of_o they_o only_a name_n out_o of_o history_n you_o call_v for_o this_o be_v a_o kind_n of_o proof_n which_o i_o do_v not_o approve_v at_o first_o but_o deny_v the_o consequence_n of_o your_o 5_o proposition_n thus_o the_o sum_n of_o your_o five_o proposition_n be_v brief_o this_o if_o the_o name_n of_o protestant_a pastor_n in_o all_o age_n can_v be_v show_v than_o the_o protestant_n be_v not_o the_o true_a church_n this_o i_o deny_v to_o be_v of_o undoubted_a consequence_n for_o that_o argument_n negative_o from_o authority_n be_v of_o no_o force_n in_o your_o demand_n you_o require_v the_o name_n of_o such_o as_o teach_v the_o protestant_a doctrine_n whereas_o all_o your_o proposition_n before_o be_v of_o faith_n as_o if_o all_o doctrine_n be_v point_n of_o faith_n i_o undertake_v to_o show_v a_o church_n profess_v the_o same_o faith_n which_o the_o protestant_n now_o do_v in_o all_o age_n and_o in_o all_o your_o proposition_n you_o speak_v of_o faith_n here_o you_o speak_v of_o doctrine_n you_o know_v all_o doctrine_n be_v not_o article_n of_o faith_n i_o have_v name_v author_n for_o 800._o year_n and_o in_o this_o my_o second_o reply_n i_o will_v for_o the_o rest_n be_v not_o my_o request_n more_o reasonable_a to_o call_v upon_o you_o to_o go_v on_o so_o far_o it_o be_v your_o own_o way_n it_o be_v a_o course_n propose_v by_o yourself_o yet_o he_o that_o have_v not_o go_v one_o mile_n find_v fault_n
registerie_n thus_o much_o concern_v your_o index_n expurgatorius_fw-la blot_v out_o of_o author_n that_o which_o make_v against_o you_o now_o follow_v the_o three_o exception_n against_o your_o authority_n your_o forge_n of_o author_n and_o counsel_n as_o abdias_n story_n of_o the_o apostle_n urge_v by_o harding_n and_o other_o censure_v by_o your_o own_o sixtus_n senensis_n for_o feign_a and_o utter_o reject_v by_o cardinal_n baronius_n linus_n bishop_n of_o rome_n of_o the_o passion_n of_o the_o b_o apostle_n peter_n and_o paul_n urge_v by_o coccius_n yet_o acknowledge_v by_o bellarmine_n baronius_n and_o possevine_n to_o be_v feign_v fabulous_a erronius_a clemens_n his_o apostolical_a constitution_n and_o his_o recognition_n be_v urge_v many_o time_n by_o coccius_n harding_n and_o other_o the_o first_o of_o these_o by_o baronius_n and_o possevine_n the_o second_o by_o bellarmine_n baronius_n and_o sixtus_n senensis_n be_v reject_v with_o many_o more_o beside_o the_o father_n of_o divers_a treatise_n upon_o st._n cyprian_n upon_o st._n origen_n upon_o saint_n athanasius_n saint_n ambrose_n saint_n augustine_n and_o other_o of_o which_o i_o will_v not_o speak_v but_o refer_v the_o reader_n to_o your_o own_o great_a writer_n bellarmine_n baronius_n sixtus_n senensis_n possevine_n who_o in_o divers_a place_n do_v nail_v these_o author_n to_o the_o pillary_o as_o false_a feign_a witness_n and_o palpable_a forgerer_n wish_v the_o learned_a reader_n to_o have_v recourse_n unto_o these_o when_o he_o read_v any_o ancient_a authority_n cite_v and_o allege_v by_o the_o romanist_n and_o he_o shall_v find_v it_o usual_a among_o man_n of_o your_o side_n to_o quote_v cite_v and_o triumph_v in_o such_o forgery_n as_o if_o they_o be_v true_a and_o undoubted_a testimony_n as_o one_o of_o your_o side_n m._n fisher_n do_v allege_v 27_o father_n for_o invocation_n of_o saint_n to_o which_o i_o have_v make_v a_o answer_n within_o the_o compass_n of_o two_o day_n for_o long_a time_n he_o will_v not_o grant_v i_o pretend_v that_o he_o must_v be_v go_v out_o of_o the_o country_n i_o discover_v so_o many_o forgery_n and_o impertinency_n as_o that_o in_o his_o next_o reply_n he_o fall_v off_o from_o 27_o to_o 16_o and_o of_o those_o 16_o some_o also_o forge_v and_o very_o few_o or_o none_o at_o all_o to_o his_o purpose_n among_o other_o he_o do_v triumph_n in_o a_o quotation_n out_o of_o athanasius_n in_o his_o sermon_n de_fw-fr sancta_fw-la deipera_fw-la the_o word_n in_o that_o sermon_n as_o he_o cite_v they_o beside_o other_o be_v these_o o_o mistress_n lady_n queen_n and_o mother_n of_o god_n make_v intercession_n for_o we_o then_o thus_o he_o trumph_v how_o now_o master_n rogers_n be_v you_o not_o yet_o content_v to_o pray_v to_o saint_n syl._n de_fw-fr scriptor_n ecclesiasticis_fw-la 8._o a_o 48._o platina_n cusanus_fw-la marsil_n pata_n lauren._n val._n ant._n floren._n otho_n fri._n hiron_n p._n cate._n volateranus_fw-la nauclerus_fw-la capnian_n mullineus_n aeneas_n syl._n shall_v saint_n athanasius_n teach_v you_o your_o ave_fw-la maria_fw-la whereas_o this_o be_v but_o a_o forgery_n for_o bellarmine_n and_o baronius_n do_v hold_v it_o not_o to_o be_v write_v by_o saint_n athanasius_n and_o do_v bring_v many_o reason_n to_o prove_v the_o same_o and_o bellarmine_n say_v that_o it_o be_v not_o a_o work_n of_o that_o age_n but_o write_v after_o the_o six_o council_n which_o be_v above_o 300_o year_n after_o athanasius_n and_o to_o insist_v no_o further_o upon_o the_o forge_n of_o particular_a private_a man_n the_o most_o notorious_a injurious_a encroach_a impudent_a forgery_n be_v that_o of_o constantine_n donation_n urge_v as_o true_a and_o undoubted_a by_o harding_n and_o the_o forge_n of_o the_o council_n of_o nice_a by_o pope_n sozimus_n the_o first_o of_o these_o two_o the_o donation_n of_o constantine_n whereby_o he_o do_v give_v and_o grant_v unto_o the_o bishop_n of_o rome_n all_o italy_n france_n denmark_n sweden_n britain_n etc._n etc._n with_o authority_n and_o power_n over_o all_o the_o world_n more_o than_o that_o of_o the_o empire_n be_v and_o that_o he_o be_v honour_v and_o worship_v more_o than_o the_o emperor_n this_o be_v adjudge_v a_o forgery_n by_o more_o than_o a_o jury_n of_o roman_a writer_n the_o other_o forgery_n be_v discover_v by_o a_o council_n of_o africa_n consist_v of_o 217_o bishop_n whereof_o saint_n augustine_n be_v one_o who_o write_v to_o the_o pope_n thus_o touch_v that_o you_o write_v unto_o we_o concern_v the_o nicene_n council_n in_o the_o very_a true_a council_n of_o nice_a which_o we_o have_v receive_v from_o the_o happy_a bishop_n of_o alexandria_n and_o the_o bishop_n of_o constantinople_n we_o find_v no_o such_o matter_n boniface_n the_o second_o be_v so_o much_o move_v hereat_o above_o a_o hundred_o year_n after_o as_o to_o say_v eulalium_fw-la ep._n ad_fw-la eulalium_fw-la that_o all_o these_o bishop_n whereof_o saint_n augustine_n be_v one_o be_v all_o inflame_a and_o lead_v by_o the_o devil_n thus_o much_o concern_v your_o forge_v authority_n but_o say_v that_o we_o produce_v some_o history_n or_o father_n which_o have_v not_o come_v under_o your_o index_n expurgatorius_fw-la nor_o be_v refine_v in_o your_o forge_n how_o will_v you_o slight_v scorn_n abase_v deride_v slander_n and_o revile_v they_o i_o know_v not_o who_o of_o the_o ecclesiastical_a historian_n nor_o who_o of_o the_o father_n you_o will_v admit_v for_o a_o witness_n without_o exception_n for_o what_o author_n what_o record_n shall_v serve_v against_o they_o who_o with_o a_o bold_a impudency_n will_v deny_v those_o historian_n who_o live_v in_o the_o fit_a time_n to_o write_v of_o those_o thing_n which_o they_o have_v commit_v to_o memory_n viz._n in_o the_o age_n next_o follow_v when_o they_o neither_o fear_n to_o offend_v the_o present_a nor_o with_o too_o much_o distance_n can_v discern_v what_o be_v more_o remote_a such_o as_o be_v the_o history_n of_o eusebius_n 19_o artic._n historiae_fw-la non_fw-la minus_fw-la vetustate_fw-la quam_fw-la novitatae_fw-la fabulosae_fw-la &_o injucundae_fw-la sunt_fw-la bellarm._n de_fw-fr cler._n l._n 1._o cap._n 20._o baron_fw-fr ann._n 324._o n._n 19_o especial_o of_o socrates_n sozomen_n theodoret_n yet_o all_o these_o shall_v be_v reject_v if_o they_o speak_v any_o thing_n that_o may_v disadvantage_n the_o papacy_n as_o socrates_n and_o sozomen_n for_o relate_v the_o story_n of_o paphnutius_fw-la speak_v for_o the_o marry_a clergy_n in_o the_o council_n of_o nice_a be_v thus_o handle_v by_o bellarmine_n multa_fw-la mentitur_fw-la sozomenus_n socrates_n tria_fw-la mendacia_fw-la dicit_fw-la socrates_n &_o sezomenus_n haeretici_fw-la sozomen_n tell_v many_o lie_n socrates_n tell_v three_o manifest_a lie_n sozomen_n and_o socrates_n be_v heretic_n neither_o do_v baronius_n handle_v they_o any_o thing_n more_o respective_o say_v sozomen_n be_v not_o advise_v behold_v into_o what_o error_n ignorance_n have_v cast_v he_o n._n 22._o it_o do_v plain_o appear_v how_o far_o he_o be_v deceive_v he_o do_v err_v concern_v the_o nicene_n council_n a_o 325._o n._n 10._o 169._o anno_fw-la 169._o concern_v paphnutius_fw-la concern_v arrius_n a_o 327._o n._n 7._o he_o be_v deceive_v concern_v the_o council_n of_o ariminum_n and_o other_o thing_n a_o 355._o n._n 27._o he_o do_v often_o relate_v untrue_o concern_v athanasius_n a_o 335._o n._n 6._o a_o 354._o n._n 21._o a_o 356._o n._n 85._o these_o be_v the_o thing_n of_o great_a moment_n in_o that_o age_n the_o council_n of_o nice_a the_o most_o famous_a that_o ever_o be_v in_o the_o world_n the_o heresy_n of_o arrius_n the_o great_a that_o ever_o be_v in_o the_o church_n the_o labour_n trouble_n and_o constancy_n of_o athanasius_n against_o this_o heresy_n of_o great_a note_n and_o most_o glorious_a of_o any_o confessor_n that_o ever_o the_o christian_a church_n have_v before_o or_o since_o sozomen_n live_v in_o the_o fit_a age_n to_o be_v inform_v of_o these_o thing_n in_o the_o fit_a church_n namely_o in_o the_o greek_a church_n where_o these_o thing_n be_v do_v and_o yet_o be_v he_o so_o full_a of_o error_n in_o matter_n of_o great_a moment_n on_o which_o the_o eye_n of_o all_o the_o christian_n in_o the_o world_n stand_v at_o a_o gaze_n be_v he_o so_o full_a of_o error_n in_o these_o thing_n which_o be_v so_o clear_a as_o the_o sun_n in_o the_o firmament_n so_o many_o record_n be_v preserve_v of_o those_o passage_n so_o many_o letter_n pass_v from_o one_o bishop_n to_o another_o must_v we_o think_v that_o baronius_n who_o live_v 1200_o year_n after_o and_o no_o member_n no_o inhabitant_n of_o the_o greek_a church_n know_v these_o thing_n better_o than_o sozomen_n do_v and_o kick_v he_o off_o with_o say_v he_o be_v a_o impudent_a fellow_n a_o 324._o n._n 19_o that_o he_o be_v a_o novatian_n haereticke_n n._n 63._o but_o you_o will_v think_v that_o baronius_n shall_v not_o thus_o reject_v debase_v disgrace_n sozomen_n unless_o
cap._n 5._o this_o council_n do_v profess_v our_o faith_n and_o receive_v our_o counsel_n and_o sacrament_n though_o they_o add_v five_o sacrament_n more_o read_v surius_n tom._n 4._o sessione_n 3_o 4_o 5._o thus_o have_v i_o travel_v through_o history_n father_n schoolman_n and_o counsel_n to_o satisfy_v the_o demand_n of_o they_o who_o when_o all_o be_v do_v will_v deny_v all_o history_n father_n and_o counsel_n which_o make_v against_o they_o i_o may_v have_v go_v a_o near_a way_n thus_o you_o baptize_v child_n daily_o in_o your_o church_n and_o then_o you_o profess_v my_o faith_n the_o apostle_n creed_n and_o minister_v our_o first_o sacrament_n you_o have_v your_o mass_n or_o common_a prayer_n with_o the_o communion_n often_o in_o your_o church_n than_o also_o you_o profess_v my_o faith_n read_v parcel_n of_o our_o scripture_n and_o minister_v our_o other_o sacrament_n entire_a to_o the_o clergy_n though_o by_o half_n to_o the_o laity_n you_o have_v publish_v many_o missal_n under_o the_o name_n of_o saint_n james_n saint_n mark_v saint_n chrysostom_n and_o other_o every_o one_o of_o these_o allow_v and_o use_v my_o faith_n scripture_n and_o sacrament_n you_o have_v your_o ordo_fw-la romanus_n that_o approve_v my_o faith_n scripture_n and_o sacrament_n you_o have_v publish_v many_o writer_n upon_o the_o mass_n in_o your_o auctionary_n of_o bibliotheca_fw-la patrum_fw-la as_o walafridus_n strabo_n ino_n corvotensis_n and_o other_o name_v by_o i_o in_o my_o catalogue_n all_o these_o profess_v our_o faith_n and_o receive_v our_o sacrament_n and_o also_o our_o scripture_n but_o as_o for_o your_o creed_n it_o be_v never_o profess_v in_o baptism_n it_o be_v find_v in_o none_o of_o those_o missal_n nor_o in_o your_o ordo_fw-la romanus_n nor_o in_o any_o of_o those_o expositor_n of_o your_o roman_a mass_n for_o one_o thousand_o five_o hundred_o year_n let_v i_o conclude_v with_o the_o word_n of_o vincentius_n lirinensis_n the_o holy_a church_n a_o diligent_a and_o wary_a keeper_n of_o those_o doctrine_n which_o be_v commit_v unto_o she_o do_v not_o change_n add_v or_o diminish_v any_o thing_n therein_o it_o do_v not_o cut_v off_o any_o thing_n that_o be_v necessary_a nor_o add_v any_o thing_n that_o be_v superfluous_a it_o do_v not_o lose_v that_o which_o be_v proper_a to_o christianity_n nor_o usurp_v that_o which_o belong_v to_o other_o sect_n of_o religion_n in_o the_o world_n chap._n xix_o fisher_n 1._o that_o faith_n be_v affirmation_n and_o not_o negation_n by_o which_o rule_n it_o seem_v he_o will_v not_o have_v any_o negative_a proposition_n although_o find_v in_o scripture_n to_o pertain_v to_o faith_n 2._o that_o they_o that_o be_v in_o the_o affirmative_a must_v prove_v and_o not_o those_o who_o be_v in_o the_o negative_a but_o which_o seem_v to_o follow_v that_o a_o man_n who_o have_v time_n out_o of_o mind_n quiet_o possess_v his_o land_n or_o religion_n be_v bind_v to_o prove_v his_o right_n before_o his_o upstart_n adversary_n who_o deny_v he_o to_o have_v right_a have_v give_v a_o good_a reason_n of_o his_o denial_n 3._o that_o what_o be_v not_o a_o point_n of_o faith_n in_o the_o primitive_a age_n can_v after_o be_v a_o point_n of_o faith_n as_o if_o there_o be_v not_o some_o point_n which_o be_v at_o first_o not_o hold_v necessary_a to_o be_v believe_v even_o by_o orthodox_n father_n which_o afterward_o by_o examination_n and_o definition_n of_o the_o church_n in_o general_n counsel_n be_v make_v so_o necessary_a to_o be_v believe_v as_o that_o whosoever_o do_v not_o believe_v they_o be_v account_v not_o orthodox_n but_o heretic_n and_o 4_o that_o the_o anabaptist_n faith_n be_v that_o which_o be_v contain_v in_o scripture_n and_o ancient_a creed_n and_o the_o anabaptist_n church_n be_v a_o society_n of_o man_n which_o profess_v the_o faith_n contain_v in_o scripture_n and_o the_o ancient_a creed_n as_o if_o a_o anabaptist_n may_v be_v judge_n it_o will_v be_v hold_v so_o to_o be_v rogers_n master_n fisher_n have_v in_o many_o page_n write_v this_o title_n master_n rogers_n his_o weak_a ground_n where_o he_o speak_v not_o one_o word_n of_o my_o ground_n and_o here_o he_o do_v pass_v over_o the_o most_o with_o silence_n but_o he_o speak_v against_o some_o few_o of_o they_o in_o my_o former_a answer_n after_o my_o definition_n of_o a_o protestant_n i_o lay_v some_o few_o distinction_n or_o ground_n thus_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o distinguish_v between_o matter_n 1._o of_o discipline_n and_o 2._o of_o doctrine_n second_o to_o distinguish_v between_o 1._o doctrine_n accessary_a and_o 2._o doctr._n fundamental_a matter_n of_o faith_n consist_v not_o in_o discipline_n but_o doctrine_n and_o that_o doctrine_n not_o accessary_a but_o fundamental_a by_o this_o distinction_n i_o mean_v the_o same_o which_o aquinas_n do_v by_o res_fw-la fidei_fw-la 1._o per_fw-la se_fw-la 2._o per_fw-la accidens_fw-la these_o 3_o distinction_n pass_v without_o exception_n save_v that_o he_o make_v mention_n of_o the_o second_o viz_o 1._o doctrine_n accessory_a 2._o doctrine_n fundamental_a as_o if_o he_o will_v overthrow_v it_o but_o indeed_o say_v nothing_o in_o the_o world_n against_o it_o nor_o can_v for_o it_o be_v the_o distinction_n of_o saint_n augustine_n of_o bellarmine_n of_o all_o the_o school_n fidem_fw-la lib._n 4._o de_fw-fr verb._n dei_fw-la c._n 12._o in_o scripture_n plurima_fw-la sunt_fw-la quae_fw-la ex_fw-la se_fw-la non_fw-la pertinent_a ad_fw-la fidem_fw-la be_v the_o same_o with_o that_o of_o aquinas_n in_o matter_n of_o faith_n into_o res_fw-la fidei_fw-la 1._o per_fw-la se_fw-la in_o themselves_o 2._o per_fw-la accidens_fw-la or_o accidental_o the_o word_n of_o aquinas_n be_v these_o and_o thus_o cite_v by_o valenza_n tom._n 3._o d._n 1._o q._n 1._o p._n 2._o §_o 1._o as_o a_o undoubted_a ground_n or_o principle_n habitus_n fidei_fw-la 1._o per_fw-la se_fw-la &_o primariò_fw-la respicit_fw-la ea_fw-la circa_fw-la quae_fw-la distinguuntur_fw-la articuli_fw-la fidei_fw-la 2._o alias_o verò_fw-la propositiones_fw-la quae_fw-la divinis_fw-la scripture_n continenter_fw-la respicit_fw-la secundariò_fw-la &_o per_fw-la accidens_fw-la the_o habit_n of_o faith_n 1._o in_o itself_o and_o principal_o look_v upon_o those_o thing_n which_o be_v contain_v in_o the_o article_n of_o our_o creed_n 2._o upon_o other_o proposition_n which_o be_v contain_v in_o scripture_n it_o look_v accidental_o and_o secondary_o this_o be_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n non_fw-la enim_fw-la unius_fw-la sunt_fw-la formae_fw-la omne_fw-la verae_fw-la doctrinae_fw-la capita_fw-la all_o head_n of_o true_a doctrine_n be_v not_o of_o one_o nature_n some_o be_v necessary_a to_o be_v know_v which_o all_o man_n ought_v to_o receive_v as_o undoubted_a there_o be_v other_o quae_fw-la inter_fw-la ecclesias_fw-la controversa_fw-la fidei_fw-la tamen_fw-la unitaetem_fw-la non_fw-la dirimant_fw-la wherein_o particular_a church_n may_v dissent_v and_o yet_o not_o break_v the_o unity_n of_o faith_n thus_o calvin_n instit_fw-la l._n 4._o c._n 1._o n._n 22._o i_o can_v cite_v luther_n and_o other_o but_o i_o will_v only_o cite_v saint_n augustine_n who_o in_o his_o first_o book_n against_o julius_n pelagius_n write_v thus_o alia_fw-la sunt_fw-la in_o quibus_fw-la inter_fw-la se_fw-la aliquando_fw-la etiam_fw-la doctissimi_fw-la atque_fw-la optimi_fw-la regulae_fw-la catholicae_fw-la defensores_fw-la salva_fw-la fidei_fw-la compage_fw-la non_fw-la consonant_n etalius_fw-la alio_fw-la de_fw-la una_fw-la re_fw-la meliùs_fw-la aliquid_fw-la dicit_fw-la &_o verius_fw-la hoc_fw-la autem_fw-la unde_fw-la nunc_fw-la agimus_fw-la ad_fw-la ipsa_fw-la fidei_fw-la pertinet_fw-la fundamenta_fw-la there_o be_v other_o thing_n wherein_o the_o most_o learned_a and_o best_a defender_n of_o the_o catholic_a rule_n may_v dissent_v one_o from_o another_o and_o one_o man_n speak_v better_a and_o more_o true_o than_o another_o upon_o the_o same_o subject_n but_o this_o whereof_o we_o now_o speak_v belong_v to_o the_o very_a foundation_n of_o faith_n thus_o far_o saint_n augustine_n this_o be_v the_o first_o of_o my_o ground_n that_o he_o find_v fault_n with_o but_o not_o in_o that_o order_n as_o i_o place_v they_o but_o after_o two_o or_o three_o other_o ground_n of_o i_o which_o in_o my_o answer_n be_v place_v after_o this_o thus_o he_o to_o puzzle_v the_o reader_n that_o he_o may_v not_o so_o easy_o perceive_v what_o he_o do_v answer_v what_o he_o do_v not_o answer_v never_o observe_v order_n yet_o i_o that_o he_o may_v in_o nothing_o escape_v my_o hand_n will_v follow_v he_o in_o his_o order_n so_o that_o i_o must_v answer_v what_o he_o object_v against_o this_o ground_n in_o the_o next_o chapter_n my_o next_o ground_n be_v this_o i_o distinguish_v between_o 1._o affirmation_n in_o those_o article_n of_o our_o english_a church_n and_o 2._o negation_n in_o those_o article_n of_o our_o english_a church_n our_o negation_n be_v partly_o a_o traverse_v partly_o a_o condemn_v of_o your_o novelty_n and_o addition_n and_o therefore_o no_o part_n of_o our_o faith_n for_o no_o man_n
worship_v of_o image_n indulgence_n etc._n etc._n be_v bury_v in_o oblivion_n and_o never_o mention_v among_o we_o which_o we_o will_v not_o do_v if_o they_o be_v article_n of_o our_o faith_n for_o all_o man_n ought_v to_o be_v ready_a to_o confess_v and_o profess_v their_o faith_n it_o be_v true_o write_v by_o one_o of_o your_o own_o doctor_n james_n gordon_n hanley_n of_o scotland_n a_o jesuite_n 6._o in_o lib._n de_fw-la traditionibus_fw-la cap._n 6._o that_o the_o whole_a controversy_n between_o you_o and_o we_o be_v of_o the_o unwritten_a point_n of_o faith_n which_o you_o affirm_v and_o we_o deny_v as_o for_o example_n you_o affirm_v and_o believe_v purgatory_n i_o do_v not_o believe_v it_o will_v you_o say_v now_o that_o purgatory_n be_v a_o part_n of_o my_o faith_n can_v that_o be_v a_o part_n of_o a_o man_n faith_n which_o he_o do_v not_o believe_v if_o i_o do_v not_o believe_v it_o it_o be_v not_o my_o faith_n if_o it_o be_v my_o faith_n i_o do_v believe_v it_o so_o you_o believe_v transubstantiation_n i_o do_v not_o believe_v it_o can_v this_o be_v a_o point_n of_o my_o faith_n your_o school_n say_v true_o that_o to_o believe_v be_v the_o proper_a internal_a inseparable_a act_n of_o faith_n they_o go_v together_o they_o stand_v or_o fall_v together_o so_o that_o i_o wonder_v with_o what_o face_n with_o what_o brain_n you_o can_v say_v or_o think_v that_o those_o negation_n be_v point_n of_o my_o faith_n and_o i_o say_v they_o be_v not_o yet_o lest_o you_o shall_v not_o take_v my_o word_n i_o will_v add_v one_o reason_n more_o i_o say_v with_o the_o learned_a of_o both_o side_n that_o faith_n be_v habitus_fw-la principiorum_fw-la be_v that_o assent_n we_o give_v unto_o reveal_v principle_n and_o that_o negation_n can_v be_v principle_n i_o prove_v thus_o 21._o arist_n annal_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d cap._n 8._o etc._n etc._n 21._o principle_n depend_v upon_o no_o precedent_a proof_n negation_n depend_v upon_o precedent_a proof_n ergo_fw-la negation_n be_v not_o principle_n both_o proposition_n be_v aristotle_n now_o let_v we_o see_v what_o he_o next_o mislike_v in_o my_o ground_n chap._n xx._n fisher_n master_n rogers_n frame_v to_o himself_o false_a rule_n first_o that_o faith_n be_v affirmation_n not_o negation_n second_o that_o they_o which_o be_v in_o the_o affirmative_a must_v prove_v and_o not_o those_o who_o be_v in_o the_o negative_a rogers_n in_o my_o former_a answer_n i_o say_v thus_o in_o point_n of_o faith_n i_o like_v master_n fisher_n rule_n that_o they_o that_o be_v in_o the_o affirmative_a must_v prove_v it_o be_v master_n fisher_n rule_v propose_v by_o he_o admit_v by_o i_o for_o these_o be_v his_o word_n in_o his_o first_o paper_n master_n fisher_n undertake_v to_o defend_v the_o negative_a part_n so_o it_o do_v belong_v to_o his_o adversary_n to_o prove_v the_o affirmative_a why_o now_o do_v you_o say_v that_o master_n rogers_n do_v frame_v false_a rule_n to_o himself_o this_o be_v master_n fisher_n rule_n frame_v by_o he_o approve_v by_o i_o it_o be_v a_o rule_n that_o your_o doctor_n cole_n and_o other_o stand_v upon_o in_o the_o disputation_n at_o westminster_n ibidem_fw-la in_o historia_n council_n try_v per_fw-la naturam_fw-la factum_fw-la negantis_fw-la probatio_fw-la nulla_fw-la 6._o q_o 5._o cap._n 2._o negationum_fw-la non_fw-la sunt_fw-la causae_fw-la gl_n ibidem_fw-la as_o bishop_n jewel_n often_o lay_v to_o his_o charge_n let_v we_o add_v one_o more_o of_o your_o man_n the_o forename_a andrea_n vega_n no_o proposition_n be_v ever_o false_a but_o because_o another_o be_v true_a neither_o can_v the_o falsity_n of_o the_o one_o be_v know_v but_o by_o he_o who_o know_v the_o truth_n of_o the_o other_o therefore_o the_o opinion_n of_o the_o lutheran_n can_v be_v condemn_v of_o heresy_n until_o the_o opinion_n of_o the_o church_n be_v set_v down_o loco_fw-la supra_fw-la citato_fw-la let_v we_o see_v what_o good_a reason_n master_n fisher_n bring_v to_o overthrow_v this_o rule_n fisher_n by_o this_o it_o seem_v to_o follow_v that_o a_o man_n who_o time_n out_o of_o mind_n quiet_o possess_v his_o land_n or_o religion_n be_v bind_v to_o prove_v his_o right_n before_o his_o upstart_n adversary_n who_o deni_v he_o to_o have_v right_a have_v give_v a_o good_a reason_n of_o his_o denial_n rogers_n even_o as_o the_o wheelbarrow_n go_v to_o rumble_v to_o rumble_v so_o doctor_n eld._n w._n owe_v i_o two_o shilling_n his_o similitude_n and_o you_o hold_v much_o alike_o master_n fisher_n and_o yet_o if_o your_o similitude_n be_v good_a symbola_fw-la non_fw-la sunt_fw-la argumentativa_fw-la similitude_n be_v no_o proof_n they_o illustrate_v and_o clear_a obscurity_n if_o they_o be_v good_a and_o apposite_a otherwise_o they_o do_v more_o hinder_v the_o understanding_n then_o help_v it_o who_o do_v strive_v with_o you_o about_o the_o possession_n of_o any_o thing_n that_o be_v controvert_v between_o we_o to_o take_v it_o from_o you_o will_v we_o take_v from_o you_o to_o ourselves_o or_o do_v we_o challenge_v any_o right_n title_n or_o portion_n in_o your_o unwritten_a tradition_n your_o invocation_n of_o saint_n purgatory_n indulgence_n and_o the_o rest_n of_o your_o new_a creed_n no_o such_o matter_n we_o disclaim_v from_o they_o we_o leave_v they_o to_o you_o we_o say_v they_o be_v you_o you_o in_o possession_n you_o in_o propriety_n of_o title_n take_v they_o hold_v they_o hug_v they_o in_o your_o arm_n and_o think_v as_o well_o of_o they_o as_o the_o old_a ape_n do_v of_o her_o young_a one_o when_o she_o present_v he_o before_o the_o lion_n as_o the_o goodly_a pretty_a fair_a youngling_n among_o all_o the_o beast_n of_o the_o field_n we_o in_o the_o mean_a time_n smile_v at_o your_o folly_n and_o laugh_v at_o such_o babble_n take_v they_o unto_o you_o father_n your_o own_o child_n they_o look_v as_o like_v you_o as_o the_o young_a ape_n do_v the_o old_a now_o let_v we_o see_v what_o be_v next_o fisher_n the_o three_o false_a rule_n frame_v by_o master_n rogers_n be_v that_o what_o be_v not_o a_o point_n of_o faith_n in_o the_o primitive_a age_n can_v after_o be_v a_o point_n of_o faith_n rogers_n this_o rule_n be_v not_o frame_v by_o i_o but_o it_o be_v the_o rule_n of_o vincentius_n lirinensis_n and_o so_o allege_v by_o i_o in_o my_o answer_n confirm_v also_o by_o their_o great_a schoolman_n aquinas_n and_o something_o than_o cite_v out_o of_o both_o thus_o religion_n or_o point_n of_o faith_n be_v without_o addition_n as_o lirinensis_n say_v imitetur_fw-la animarum_fw-la religio_fw-la rationem_fw-la corporum_fw-la quae_fw-la &_o quot_fw-la parvulorum_fw-la membra_fw-la tot_fw-la virorum_fw-la etc._n etc._n and_o as_o aquinas_n say_v the_o article_n of_o faith_n do_v grow_v quoad_fw-la 1._o explicationem_fw-la non_fw-la 2._o substantiam_fw-la that_o which_o be_v no_o point_n of_o faith_n for_o the_o first_o 1200_o year_n can_v be_v none_o afterward_o ut_fw-la supra_fw-la vinc._n lirin_n &_o aquin._n but_o transubstantiation_n be_v no_o point_n of_o faith_n before_o the_o year_n 1200._o scotus_n ergo_fw-la transubstantiation_n be_v no_o point_n of_o faith_n to_o all_o this_o contain_v in_o my_o former_a answer_n be_v no_o reply_n make_v the_o authority_n and_o say_n of_o lirinensis_n aquinas_n scotus_n together_o with_o my_o argument_n be_v pass_v over_o with_o silence_n but_o supply_v with_o two_o or_o three_o falsehood_n 1_o by_o say_v that_o i_o frame_v that_o rule_n which_o be_v frame_v 1200_o year_n at_o least_o before_o i_o be_v bear_v 2_o by_o call_v that_o a_o false_a rule_n which_o be_v receive_v without_o control_n no_o learned_a man_n have_v the_o face_n to_o deny_v it_o till_o the_o lame_a laiola_n furnish_v the_o world_n with_o audacious_a jesuit_n for_o never_o be_v there_o a_o new_a creed_n make_v before_o the_o council_n of_o trent_n but_o let_v we_o see_v what_o reason_n he_o have_v to_o deny_v this_o rule_n his_o word_n be_v these_o fisher_n as_o if_o there_o be_v not_o some_o point_n which_o be_v at_o first_o not_o hold_v necessary_a to_o be_v believe_v by_o orthodox_n father_n which_o afterward_o by_o examination_n and_o definition_n of_o the_o church_n in_o general_n counsel_n be_v make_v so_o necessary_a to_o be_v believe_v as_o that_o whosoever_o do_v not_o believe_v be_v account_v not_o orthodox_n but_o heretic_n rogers_n a_o boy_n that_o want_v a_o couple_n of_o verse_n to_o make_v up_o his_o full_a number_n desire_v one_o of_o his_o fellow_n to_o help_v at_o a_o pinch_n no_o matter_n whether_o it_o be_v to_o the_o theme_n no_o matter_n whether_o they_o be_v good_a or_o no_o so_o they_o fill_v up_o the_o paper_n make_v up_o the_o number_n i_o care_v not_o say_v he_o though_o they_o be_v all_o botch_n for_o i_o hope_v they_o will_v never_o be_v read_v one_o of_o his_o fellow_n to_o help_v he_o at_o his_o need_n make_v this_o
i_o deny_v if_o the_o delay_n of_o seven_o or_o eight_o year_n for_o baptism_n do_v exclude_v they_o out_o of_o the_o church_n because_o many_o thereby_o be_v deprive_v of_o baptism_n than_o a_o short_a delay_n of_o forty_o day_n or_o eighty_o day_n shall_v exclude_v man_n out_o of_o the_o church_n because_o many_o child_n may_v die_v at_o twenty_o or_o thirty_o day_n old_a and_o yet_o we_o know_v many_o church_n in_o the_o world_n as_o the_o coftie_a in_o egypt_n do_v not_o baptise_v their_o child_n before_o the_o fourti_v day_n though_o they_o shall_v die_v without_o baptism_n primus_fw-la th._n a_o je_n lib._n 7._o p._n 1._o c._n 5._o so_o th._n ibid._n c._n 6._o leo_fw-la primus_fw-la the_o maronites_n who_o patriarch_n reside_v in_o syria_n baptise_v not_o their_o male_a child_n till_o forty_o day_n nor_o their_o female_n till_o eighty_o day_n after_o their_o birth_n he_o be_v a_o pope_n of_o rome_n which_o command_v that_o baptism_n shall_v not_o be_v minister_v at_o any_o other_o time_n then_o at_o easter_n and_o whitsuntide_n and_o can_v we_o think_v but_o that_o many_o child_n in_o the_o mean_a space_n do_v die_v socrates_n scholasticus_n testify_v 4._o hist_o eccl._n 5._o c._n 21._o l_o tom._n 4._o disp_n 4._o puncto_fw-la 4._o that_o in_o thessaly_n by_o reason_n of_o defer_v of_o baptism_n until_o easter_n it_o happen_v that_o many_o yea_o the_o most_o dye_v before_o baptism_n your_o gregory_n de_fw-mi valenza_n do_v confess_v that_o in_o the_o primitive_a church_n many_o holy_a and_o godly_a man_n do_v defer_v their_o baptism_n for_o a_o long_a season_n 6._o disp_n de_fw-fr sacramentis_fw-la tom._n 1._o council_n in_o decretis_fw-la leonis_fw-la primi_fw-la can._n 6._o and_o your_o suarez_n and_o binius_fw-la do_v say_v that_o the_o former_a custom_n of_o the_o church_n and_o decree_n of_o pope_n leo_n be_v change_v by_o the_o church_n because_o of_o the_o danger_n which_o by_o so_o long_a delay_n do_v ensue_v if_o therefore_o the_o anabaptist_n be_v exclude_v from_o the_o visible_a church_n because_o of_o the_o danger_n which_o by_o delay_n of_o baptism_n do_v ensue_v to_o child_n then_o pope_n leo_n the_o first_o for_o decree_v a_o delay_n of_o baptism_n with_o the_o like_a danger_n and_o a_o great_a part_n of_o the_o christian_a church_n for_o observe_v the_o same_o be_v exclude_v out_o of_o the_o visible_a church_n this_o be_v it_o you_o shall_v first_o have_v prove_v that_o the_o anabaptist_n be_v out_o of_o the_o church_n afore_o you_o take_v it_o as_o a_o premise_v or_o undoubted_a proposition_n thence_o to_o infer_v a_o conclusion_n let_v i_o propose_v the_o argument_n again_o in_o that_o form_n which_o you_o most_o affect_v with_o if_z and_o ands._n if_o master_n roger_n ground_n be_v true_a the_o anabaptist_n receive_v the_o scripture_n apostle_n creed_n and_o agree_v with_o the_o protestant_n in_o all_o thing_n save_v this_o that_o he_o will_v not_o baptise_v child_n be_v of_o the_o church_n but_o such_o a_o anabaptist_n be_v not_o of_o the_o church_n ergo_fw-la master_n roger_n ground_n be_v not_o true_a negatur_fw-la minor_fw-la you_o have_v not_o speak_v one_o word_n to_o prove_v that_o such_o a_o anabaptist_n be_v not_o of_o the_o church_n which_o till_o you_o prove_v your_o conclusion_n can_v follow_v all_o that_o you_o say_v be_v in_o proof_n of_o the_o major_n which_o i_o grant_v whereas_o you_o say_v and_o will_v have_v it_o suppose_v that_o i_o can_v produce_v as_o many_o proof_n against_o this_o negative_a of_o the_o anabaptist_n as_o the_o romanist_n do_v usual_o produce_v against_o negative_n be_v most_o false_a for_o instance_n if_o you_o will_v bring_v i_o one_o author_n for_o your_o half_a communion_n your_o transubstantiation_n the_o book_n of_o maccabee_n 8._o irenaeus_n origen_n cyprian_a confess_v by_o bellarm._n lib._n 1._o de_fw-fr bap_n cap._n 8._o to_o be_v canonical_a in_o all_o which_o you_o be_v affirmative_a and_o i_o negative_a i_o say_v if_o you_o bring_v one_o author_n in_o the_o first_o 300_o year_n for_o these_o your_o affirmative_n i_o will_v bring_v three_o to_o one_o for_o our_o affirmative_a of_o baptise_v in_o the_o same_o time_n i_o will_v produce_v for_o this_o my_o affirmative_a antiquity_n universality_n and_o consent_n do_v you_o the_o like_a for_o your_o affirmative_n and_o i_o will_v be_v of_o your_o church_n all_o the_o rest_n of_o your_o frivolous_a chat_n concern_v the_o annabaptist_n what_o he_o may_v say_v what_o exception_n he_o may_v take_v against_o author_n against_o translation_n be_v nothing_o against_o any_o thing_n that_o i_o have_v write_v you_o name_v no_o author_n you_o name_v no_o particular_a exception_n so_o you_o cavil_v again_o with_o my_o distinction_n of_o doctrine_n fundamental_a and_o doctrine_n accessary_a not_o be_v able_a to_o produce_v one_o argument_n against_o they_o and_o ignorant_o or_o impudent_o deny_v a_o distinction_n deliver_v by_o saint_n augustine_n receive_v by_o your_o great_a schoolman_n aquinas_n by_o your_o great_a jesuite_n bellarmine_n and_o valenza_n acknowledge_v by_o the_o divine_n of_o our_o church_n as_o i_o have_v former_o show_v out_o of_o these_o author_n and_o the_o thing_n do_v manifest_v itself_o do_v not_o some_o thing_n that_o be_v contain_v in_o scripture_n more_o near_o concern_v our_o salvation_n than_o other_o can_v any_o man_n be_v save_v without_o know_v christ_n to_o be_v the_o saviour_n of_o the_o world_n and_o may_v not_o a_o man_n be_v save_v without_o know_v that_o jacob_n love_v rachel_n better_a than_o leah_n or_o that_o pharaoh_n dream_v of_o fat_a and_o lean_a kine_n to_o what_o tend_v your_o school_n distinction_n of_o 1._o fides_n explicita_fw-la &_o 2._o fides_n implicita_fw-la of_o necessitas_fw-la 1._o medii_fw-la 2._o praecepti_fw-la and_o their_o large_a dispute_n what_o be_v to_o be_v believe_v necessitate_v medii_fw-la without_o which_o a_o man_n can_v be_v save_v and_o what_o necessitate_v praecepti_fw-la thing_n that_o they_o ought_v to_o believe_v and_o offend_v if_o they_o do_v not_o but_o not_o with_o so_o great_a danger_n as_o if_o they_o believe_v not_o the_o former_a what_o mean_v these_o two_o distinction_n and_o that_o which_o i_o cite_v out_o of_o aquinas_n and_o by_o which_o i_o explicate_v my_o own_o distinction_n of_o fundamental_a and_o accessory_a i_o mean_v res_fw-la fidei_fw-la per_fw-la se_fw-la per_fw-la accidens_fw-la if_o this_o be_v answer_v to_o except_v against_o the_o ground_n of_o father_n schoolman_n jesuite_n and_o reform_a divine_n without_o frame_v one_o argument_n against_o they_o it_o be_v easy_a answer_v indeed_o whereas_o you_o say_v that_o none_o of_o the_o author_n by_o i_o allege_v not_o luther_n himself_o hold_v the_o entire_a protestant_a faith_n be_v untrue_a and_o you_o bring_v no_o proof_n but_o a_o false_a supposition_n that_o all_o protestant_a doctrine_n different_a from_o the_o faith_n of_o the_o roman_a church_n may_v be_v call_v doctrine_n of_o protestant_a faith_n this_o i_o former_o deny_v and_o you_o bring_v no_o reason_n to_o the_o contrary_a yet_o still_o you_o urge_v it_o as_o your_o only_a medium_n or_o principle_n i_o have_v show_v you_o reason_n to_o the_o contrary_a which_o when_o you_o answer_v i_o will_v eat_v paul_n steeple_n one_o thing_n which_o i_o deliver_v in_o my_o first_o answer_n make_v it_o clear_a the_o question_n between_o you_o and_o i_o be_v of_o transubstantiation_n invocation_n of_o saint_n purgatory_n indulgence_n worship_v of_o image_n etc._n etc._n which_o you_o affirm_v i_o deny_v and_o therefore_o they_o be_v no_o point_n of_o my_o faith_n for_o no_o man_n will_v deny_v his_o own_o faith_n i_o will_v reduce_v it_o into_o form_n no_o man_n will_v deny_v the_o point_n of_o his_o own_o faith_n but_o we_o protestant_n deny_v transubstantiation_n invocation_n of_o saint_n purgatory_n and_o all_o your_o new_a creed_n ergo_fw-la neither_o transubstantion_n nor_o invocation_n of_o saint_n nor_o purgatory_n nor_o any_o part_n of_o your_o new_a creed_n be_v point_n of_o protestant_a faith_n and_o they_o be_v your_o faith_n you_o be_v bind_v by_o the_o rule_n of_o saint_n peter_n to_o give_v a_o account_n of_o your_o faith_n 1_o pet._n 3_o v._o 15._o chap._n xxiii_o fisher_n but_o if_o all_o protestant_a doctrine_n which_o be_v different_a from_o the_o roman_a church_n her_o faith_n be_v not_o doctrine_n of_o protestant_a faith_n i_o require_v master_n rogers_n to_o show_v i_o which_o in_o particular_a be_v and_o which_o be_v not_o doctrine_n of_o protestant_a faith_n that_o it_o may_v be_v discern_v who_o do_v and_o who_o do_v not_o hold_v the_o protestant_a faith_n and_o that_o withal_o he_o give_v i_o a_o substantial_a ground_n well_o prove_v out_o of_o scripture_n why_o those_o particular_a point_n which_o he_o shall_v assign_v be_v point_n of_o protestant_a faith_n rather_o than_o other_o contain_v in_o the_o 39_o article_n if_o he_o say_v as_o
vel_fw-la per_fw-la se_fw-la well_fw-mi er_fw-mi accidens_fw-la be_v neither_o essential_o nor_o accidental_o the_o object_n of_o faith_n that_o which_o you_o allege_v out_o of_o athanasius_n i_o willing_o embrace_v i_o receive_v his_o creed_n i_o have_v often_o profess_v it_o in_o public_a but_o what_o be_v that_o to_o your_o new_a creed_n i_o find_v in_o athanasius_n his_o creed_n neither_o purgatory_n nor_o indulgence_n nor_o transubstantiation_n nor_o invocation_n of_o saint_n nor_o seven_o sacrament_n nor_o worship_v of_o image_n whereas_o you_o say_v i_o must_v hold_v it_o in_o the_o uncorrupted_a sense_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n i_o do_v embrace_v it_o but_o i_o will_v not_o understand_v the_o church_n of_o rome_n or_o the_o pope_n for_o the_o catholic_a church_n as_o you_o do_v the_o catholic_a church_n never_o receive_v your_o purgatory_n your_o half_a communion_n your_o worship_v of_o image_n as_o i_o have_v show_v already_o i_o will_v obstinate_o maintain_v nothing_o contrary_a to_o the_o know_a judgement_n of_o a_o lawful_a general_n council_n but_o your_o counsel_n of_o trent_n and_o lateran_n be_v no_o such_o they_o be_v but_o foppery_n and_o the_o juggle_a trick_n of_o the_o popish_a faction_n to_o cozen_v the_o world_n whatsoever_o we_o deny_v when_o you_o prove_v it_o out_o of_o scripture_n we_o will_v believe_v it_o here_o be_v no_o obstinacy_n whatsoever_o be_v determine_v by_o counsel_n we_o will_v receive_v fide_fw-la humana_fw-la but_o not_o divina_fw-la as_o the_o say_n of_o reverend_a man_n but_o not_o as_o the_o oracle_n of_o god_n so_o also_o we_o approve_v the_o unanimous_a consent_n of_o the_o father_n in_o receive_v all_o reveal_v truth_n we_o be_v far_o from_o heresy_n in_o submit_v to_o the_o catholic_a church_n and_o decree_n of_o counsel_n we_o clear_v ourselves_o from_o be_v schismatic_n in_o follow_v the_o unanimous_a consent_n of_o the_o father_n we_o show_v ourselves_o to_o be_v no_o innovator_n but_o you_o by_o worship_v of_o image_n show_v what_o respect_n you_o have_v to_o scripture_n by_o your_o new_a creed_n you_o show_v what_o reverence_n you_o have_v to_o general_n counsel_n see_v the_o council_n of_o chalcedon_n decree_v have_v repeat_v that_o which_o be_v common_o call_v the_o nicene_n creed_n conc._n isidor_n fol._n 83_o and_o urge_v by_o the_o grecian_n in_o the_o council_n of_o florence_n surius_n tom._n 4._o sesse_n 5._o ferrariae_n habita_fw-la lib._n 7._o c._n 1._o de_fw-fr loc_fw-fr the._n pag._n 422_o 423._o de_fw-fr rebus_fw-la muscovitarum_fw-la pag._n 38._o in_o apara_fw-la sacr._n in_o diamperi_n conc._n that_o no_o man_n shall_v write_v or_o say_v other_o creed_n and_o whosoever_o do_v if_o bishop_n and_o clergyman_n let_v they_o be_v depose_v if_o monk_n and_o lay_v man_n let_v they_o be_v accurse_v what_o regard_v you_o have_v to_o the_o unanimous_a consent_n of_o the_o father_n appear_v by_o your_o doctrine_n that_o the_o virgin_n mary_n be_v conceive_v without_o original_a sin_n contrary_a to_o chrysostome_n ambrose_n augustine_n bernard_n and_o all_o the_o holy_a man_n that_o make_v mention_n of_o that_o point_n as_o your_o own_o canus_n confess_v and_o so_o you_o be_v innovator_n schismatic_n and_o heretic_n despise_v and_o excommunicate_v by_o all_o other_o christian_a church_n in_o the_o world_n by_o the_o grecian_n as_o appear_v by_o posevine_n your_o own_o jesuit_n by_o the_o indian_n as_o be_v acknowledge_v by_o the_o same_o author_n by_o the_o coftie_a of_o egypt_n and_o consequent_o by_o all_o the_o rest_n of_o the_o jacobite_n the_o aethiopian_n and_o other_o acknowledge_v all_o subjection_n unto_o the_o patriarch_n of_o alexandria_n so_o that_o upon_o you_o alone_o that_o curse_n be_v fall_v nec_fw-la amet_fw-la quenquam_fw-la nec_fw-la ametur_fw-la ab_fw-la ullo_fw-la you_o hate_v you_o condemn_v all_o church_n of_o the_o world_n and_o they_o condemn_v you_o you_o account_v they_o for_o schismatic_n and_o heretic_n and_o they_o you_o for_o schismatic_n heretic_n and_o idolater_n your_o worship_v of_o image_n hinder_v the_o conversion_n of_o the_o jew_n and_o turk_n who_o for_o this_o cause_n esteem_v you_o for_o subtle_a atheist_n and_o heathenish_a idolater_n fall_v down_o to_o a_o block_n and_o worship_v the_o work_n of_o man_n hand_n we_o worship_v god_n fisher_n whereas_o therefore_o it_o be_v certain_a that_o protestant_n hold_v divers_a negative_a doctrine_n not_o only_o not_o find_v in_o but_o contrary_a to_o scripture_n counsel_n and_o father_n and_o other_o orthodox_n author_n in_o all_o age_n it_o evident_o follow_v that_o master_n rogers_n have_v not_o yet_o name_v nor_o can_v name_v nor_o have_v prove_v nor_o can_v prove_v or_o defend_v any_o of_o those_o he_o name_v or_o undertake_v to_o name_n to_o have_v be_v visible_a protestant_n in_o all_o age_n before_o luther_n and_o consequent_o he_o can_v be_v say_v to_o have_v make_v any_o good_a answer_n either_o to_o master_n fisher_n question_v or_o to_o his_o five_o proposition_n or_o to_o his_o other_o paper_n write_v to_o explicate_v the_o sense_n of_o the_o say_a question_n rogers_n what_o you_o say_v certain_o be_v most_o false_a that_o protestant_n hold_v divers_a negative_a doctrine_n contrary_a to_o scripture_n counsel_n and_o father_n if_o you_o understand_v general_n counsel_n and_o unanimous_a consent_n of_o father_n we_o hold_v many_o doctrine_n not_o express_o set_v down_o in_o scripture_n but_o none_o contrary_a to_o scripture_n neither_o do_v we_o count_v any_o thing_n matter_n of_o faith_n but_o what_o be_v express_o contain_v in_o scripture_n whereas_o you_o say_v that_o i_o have_v not_o yet_o name_v nor_o prove_a author_n of_o the_o protestant_n faith_n in_o all_o age_n the_o present_a discourse_n will_v show_v to_o be_v false_a which_o i_o refer_v to_o the_o reader_n deo_fw-la gloria_fw-la in_o aeternum_fw-la finis_fw-la