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A10833 A defence of the doctrine propounded by the synode at Dort against Iohn Murton and his associates, in a treatise intituled; A description what God, &c. With the refutation of their answer to a writing touching baptism. By Iohn Robinson. Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. 1624 (1624) STC 21107A; ESTC S114366 156,832 207

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sheep I haue which are not of this fold whom also I must bring c hee means the elect amongst the Heathens destinated to that one Sheep-fold under him that one Shepheard and by his voyce to be brought therto This is yet more plain v. 15 where he saith I giue my life for my sheep Christ dyed for the ungodly Rom. 5. 6. 8. By his sheep therfore in this place are meant the elect from eternity for whom he dyed the fruit of which election of God and death of Christ sheweth forth it selfe in their timeous faith and obedience Further note we for the thing in hand that Christ giues unto his sheep that hears his voyce and obey him eternall life as elsewhere also he saith He that beleeveth on the Son hath everlasting life If this life which they haue given them and haue in the beginnings of it even in this life be eternall and everlasting how can it be broken off afterwards Or if it can be interrupted and broken off how is it everlasting and eternall Lastly if none be able to pluck Christs sheep out of his and his Fathers hand then no sinfull person or temptation no malice of Satan can turn them from God for if they can then they can pluck them out of Gods hand Is not the destroying and corrupting of mens faith and obedience the plucking them out of the hand of God V. 12 the same word is used the wolfe catcheth and scattreth the sheep that is corrupteth them as Math. 7. 10 Act. 20. 29 where the same word is used also As they are elsewhere too prodigall of Christs benefits to all the goats in the world so are they here too niggardly of them to his own sheep Although in truth they grant though unawares as much as we plead for in saying that those sheep so long as they continue his sheep haue spirituall peace and safety c. Spirituall peace and safety is against all assaults of all spirituall enemies labouring to subvert the spirituall state of Gods people To the Scriptures here alledged by them for their purpose the answers formerly given touching conditional threatnings and Gods people in appearance must be applyed Of the former of the two Scriptures following which is Ioh. 13. 1 Whom he loveth he loveth to the end they speak as the thing is of Gods loue but as loath to be too much beholden to him for it and desirous Pharisaically to justifie themselvs they pull down what they formerly built in saying that the question is not of Gods and Christs loue unto his but of the continuance of our loue unto him wherein they both gainsay themselvs in this whole Treatise and the Scriptures throughout They put the question themselvs of Gods election and of the promise of election And is election and the promise of election a work of our loue to God or of Gods to us The Scriptures also ascribe the whole work of our salvation as election redemption by the bloud of Christ vocation revelation of heavenly things justification sanctification adoption faith repentance and the giving of the Spirit issue out of temptations and continuing blamelesse to the comming of the Lord unto the good pleasure and loue of God alone It is true that we must also loue God as they say But we must know withall that this our loue of God depends upon his loue of us first and the same shead abroad into our hearts by his Spirit which giues testimony therof to our spirits which as it were forceth loue again from us to God and the continuance of it the continuance of our loue according to that of the Apostle The loue of Christ constraineth us For as the beams of the Sun shed into the bosome of the earth first heat it and so cause it to reflect heat again towards heaven so by the loue of God shead into our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given us our hearts are most effectually drawn and perswaded to loue God againe and men for and according to him Which I further also manifest thus Our loue whether to God or man ariseth from faith unfeyned Faith stands in the assured perswasion of the heart by the Holy Ghost of Gods loue to us Wherupon I conclude that our salvation depending immediately upon our faith loue and obedience as conditions requisite by Gods ordination and they upon Gods loue and the same known to us and so the continuance of them upon the continuance of it the question is properly and principally of the loue of God to us and the unchangeablenesse therof For Rom. 11. 29 they dream waking that the meaning is that God will never repent of saving all persons at all times in all places that seek salvation by faith in Christ and continue therin If this were all what needed the Apostle v. 33 to break out into that admiration of the riches of the wisedom and knowledge of God and of the unsearchablenes of his judgments What strange thing is it that God should not repent of so gracious a purpose and promise as is that of saving such as beleev in his Sonne Secondly it is more then evident that he speake not here of saving all at all times but of the saving of some at sometimes namely of the Israelites in their time and of the Gentiles in theirs Thirdly the Apostle speaks not of saving them that beleev but of giving the election to obtain mercy to beleev Lastly the words are a reason of that which goes before the Israelites touching election are beloved for the Fathers sake v. 28. For or because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance as if he should haue said though for the present the body of the Israelites be enemies for the Gospell that is in not beleeving it till the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in yet the election such as are that Israel according to election and Gods people which he foreknew v. 2 them he loues in his decree unchangeably for their father Abraham Isaak and Iakobs sake and without repentance and so will in their time make them actually partakers of his most gracious gift and calling They here add certain Scriptures and may doe many moe proving that God denies the effect to conditionall promises men breaking the conditions first But as the Scriptures cited by them speak not all of salvation in Christ so neither doe any other shew that God ever alters purpose or promise of saving any whom he once loved in Christ whether in decree or application of loue The last place which they labor to elude is 1 Ioh. 2. 19. They went out of us but they were not of us for if they had been of us they would no doubt haue continued with us but they went out that they might be manifest that they were not all of us And here in stead of answering directly to the place they make out-leaps as their manner is making us to affirm that
purposed in himself accordingly to loue the one and hate the other seeing whatsoever God in time doth by way of emanation or application to and upon the creature that he purposed to do as he doth it from eternity If the Apostle v. 13 Iakob haue I loved and Esau haue I hated confirm his former doctrine as they say then he confirms the doctrine of Gods eternall and stedfast election from eternity And their boldnesse is excessiue in calling them perverters of the words of Paul which will haue this to be before Iakob and Esau were born seeing the Apostle adds this Scripture out of Malachy to shew the reason of that contained in the former which both Moses and Paul with him expresly affirm to haue been before the children were born namely that the highest cause of the elder to wit Esau his serving the yonger to wit Iakob was Gods loue to Iakob and hatred of Esau. That following is partly true namely that v. 12. 13 is not shewed for what cause God loved Iakob and hated Esau for that is shewed so far as God would haue us see v. 15. 18. But fals where they say that they shew not when this was For this loue and hatred was and before when God said The elder shall serv the yonger and this he said when the children were not yet born the effect of which was that the purpose of God according to election might stand in after time and that both in respect of the two persons themselvs and of the bodies of the Nations to come of them though not of every particular And so indeed they are to be considered both as instances in their persons and heads of their Nations the Scriptures accordingly every where testifying that God loved and chose from the rest the Israelits in their fathers Abraham Isaak and Iakob according to the tenour of his gracious promise and covenant of being their God and the God of their Seed expressing his eternall and most stedfast purpose of will That which they adde in the last place of Gods not hating to wit actually and destroying without desert is most true But when we speak of Gods loving or hating any before the world we mean onely of his decree of loving which he actually exerciseth in time for Christs righteousnesse by faith applyed upon the so loved and so of his decree of hating which hatred he comes not to exercise actually but for sin deserving it God from eternity purposed in time to glorifie his justice in the deserved destruction of Esau and not of Iakob Of this different decree of God touching Esau and not Iakob and his leaving him in and to his own corruption and hardning him in the same rather then Iakob our reason is the will of God but of Gods actuall hating and destroying of him rather then the other the Scriptures shew sufficient reason to wit his obstinacy in sin the onely cause of his destruction Vers. 14 upon the premises that God of two alike in themselvs and without respect of good or evill in the one or other had loved the one and hated the other an objection is framed that by this injustice might seem to be with God which the Apostle denyes with God forbid This objection our Adversaries understand to be upon Gods rejecting the fleshly Israelites for contemning their salvation offered them by faith in Christ as Esau was rejected for contemning his birth-right But herein as children skip where they cannot reade they leav out the principall part of the objection which is not onely moved upon Gods rejecting some but withall upon his receiving of others The Apostle in the words before going which occasion the objection mentions not onely Esau the elder hated and serving but also Iakob the yonger loved and served so in answering the same objection he speaks first and most of Gods shewing mercy and compassion and last and least of his hardning any Now whether they have omitted this part of the objection in cunning or inconsideratenesse themselves best know This is certain that the adjoyning it qutie overturns their exposition For comparing together two such persons as whereof the one glories in his own righteousnesse as perfectly answering to the holinesse and righteousnesse of the Law justifying himselfe when the Law condemnes him despising the grace and mercy of God in Christ offered and making him a lyar in not receiving the testimony which he gives of his Son and joyning with these blasphemy and persecution and all injurious dealing against them that doe receive this grace of Christ all which those proud justiciaries and carnall Israelits did and the other as honoring Gods justice and holinesse in the sense and confession of sin and misery due therefore flying to the mercie of God in Christ and by receiving the testimony of his Sonn setting to his seal that God is true and therewith repenting with all his heart which every true beleever doth that God now should shew mercie upon the latter of these and not upon the former cannot minister to any man indued with common sense occasion of objecting injustice to God seeing the light of nature teacheth every naturall man the reason of a difference And if any should be so senselesse as to object injustice to God in such a case as they conceive the objecter to be yet was not the Apostle so witlesse as to fly for answer to the absolute will of God and to plead that God will doe so because he will or pleaseth to doe it as v. 15. 18. I will haue mercie on whom I will have mercie c. Which answer of the Apostle also ministers matter of further and more difficult objection as appeares v. 19. 20. Whereas if the objection had been cast in their mould a child could have answered it and sayd that it had been a most just and equall thing for God to have received and loved the one rather then the other considering how the one honored the holynesse justice truth and mercy of God which the other dishonored and despised They erre therefore in applying to this purpose Rom. 2. 4. 5. Neither doth the Apostle there speak of a mercy and bounty to be shewed to them that beleeve and repent as they conceive but of that which goes before repentance as a means to lead unto it But here he speaks of a higher work of Gods shewing mercy namely the purpose of his will according to election to glory and the means thereunto And truely these mens boldnesse is too great in putting for God hath mercy on whom he wil have mercy God hath mercie on them that seek him by the means that he himselfe appoynts For though it be most true that God hath mercie on such yet the Apostle here speaks no more of Gods appoynting or commanding will for his shewing of mercy then of his appoynting or commanding vvill for his hardening v 18 whom he will he hardens He speaks of that will
threatning that if they continued not in the bounty of God they should be cut off ch 11. 21. I answer as before first that the threatning is conditionall as Gal 1. 8 If we c. Was it possible that Paul should preach any other Gospell Or were he an Angell from heaven or of God that should so doe I suppose no ch 4. 14. But an Angell from hell rather and of the divell The question is not whether if any should not abide in the bounty of God they were to be cut off or no But whether any with whom hee hath dealt so bounteously as indeed to justifie and sanctifie them haue not also a promise by his power to be kept in that his bounty by the means which he hath appointed Secondly Paul pronounceth those Romans justified not from the judgement of certainty but of charity Of whom as some were undoubtedly sincere whom God did by this and the like warnings preserv and keep in his grace so for the hypocrites mingled amongst them it was but that which we say if in their time they were broken off from that which formerly they seemed to others by their profession and it may be to themselvs also to haue had And indeed this very place if it be well minded ministers full answer to the most of their Arguments This warning though immediately given to the Romans concerns all Christians as well as them And being founded upon an example of the Lords dealing with the Iews must be expounded and applyed accordingly Who then were these exemplary Iews formerly cut off by the Lord from the oliue tree Were they such as had once truely beleeved but had after made defection I suppose not even in these mens judgment but such as occupying a place in the Church yet were in truth faithlesse hypocrites and as chaff in the Lords flore which the Son of man comming with his fan in his hand purged out And in these we may see what kind of branches they are which in time come actually and visibly to bee broken off from the Oliue The instances following of Elies house loosing the Priesthood Saul the Kingdom of Israel and the Israelites Canaan serv onely to fill up room That Priesthood Kingdom and Canaan were not the graces of faith and sanctification in the heart nor the losse of them sin but punishments onely Onely the last place Math. 18. 32 where debt forgiven is as they say recalled were something to the purpose if the drift of the parable were to shew that God indeed forgivs sins and after unforgives them which were lightnesse unbecomming any graue and honest man But the scope of the parable being no more then that we ought to forgiue such as offend us and that otherwise God will not forgiue us to draw more from it is to forget that it is a parable and to take the high way to to most grievous errour Besides there is in this parable no colour for falling away from grace and true godlinesse formerly had but onely even their exposition being admitted that a man may haue his sins pardoned who yet wants all brotherly loue and goodnesse which the Scriptures every where deny Math. 6. 14. 15 Mark 11. 24. 25 1 Ioh. 3. 14. 15 Rom. 8. 1 Ps. 32. 1. 2. Thirdly by these grounds no man can certainly know that his sins are indeed pardoned whilst he liues in the world because he may still fall away and so haue his pardon recalled though sealed up unto him by the very spirit of God it selfe And so all our faith must be but adventure whilst we liue in the world whether our sins past be in truth pardoned or no contrary to the Scriptures Lastly this impeacheth both the justice of God and his truth His justice in making him require double satisfaction for the same debt first of his Son even the price of his bloud and the same also by faith applyed to the person that hath sinned and beleeveth and after of the person himselfe Of his truth and that both of his word absolutely promising forgiuenesse of sins to him that beleeveth and also of his spirit by which he seals up the same unto their hearts Their second and third reason taken from the fall and sin of Adam and all mens falling and sinning in and by him are wholly besides the question which is onely of falling from the grace of God in Christ from election in him from the loue of God towards us when we were enemies from mercy which presupposeth sin and misery and is properly Evangelicall God gaue Adam his portion in grace by creation and left it in his own keeping which hee soon mispent but hath dealt more mercifully with us in making his Son our feof●er in trust that he as our head might keep and improue the grace of God belonging to us as is meet for us lest we having ●ll at once and that same left in our own hands should mispend all as Adam did To that which they alledge from Eph. 1. 4 compared with Rev. 2. 4. 5 I answer first that Paul stiles those Ephesians elect onely as he knew them so to be which was by outward appearance of holinesse Secondly that the leaving of their first loue was not a total falling from grace but onely a decaying of their former zeal Thirdly the threatning of the Candlesticks removing was to the truely called an effectuall means of drawing them to repentance When these men can make it appear that any one of the truely elect and sanctified Ephesians did wholly despise this and the like means of their bettering I will then grant their proof strong It may as well be concluded that therefore the fire goes out because it hath good and fresh fuell put unto it and is diligently blown For these exhortations and admonitions are as fuell and blowing to preserv from going out the spark and fire of grace in the hearts of beleevers That onely he that continues to the end and overcomes shall be saved and that the promise of acceptance and salvation by them miscalled the promise of election is no otherwise intended to us then upon our abiding in the faith and obedience of Christ. Wee beleev and confesse with them according to the Scriptures but withall are taught and beleev according to the same Scriptures that God keeps all his holy ones unto the end and giues them to overcome that he puts his fear in their heart that they shall not depart from him that the seed sown in good ground shall neither wither by persecution nor be choaked by cares of the world or deceitfulnesse of riches or otherwise but shall grow up to the harvest that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church or any one member thereof built upon the rock of Peters confession that God is faithfull who with the temptation will giue a way to escape for all his that they are kept by the power of
as in a generall root was so conceived and brought forth by his mother in sin Secondly it is one thing to be conceived and born in sin another thing to be made of sin The former David affirms of himself the latter they vainly impute to us and refute in us with many words That Infants are under condemnation that is naturally guilty thereof hath been formerly proved that actuall faith in Christ is required for their reconciliation to God doth not follow hereupon Actuall I say for the seed of faith they haue and of all graces for but by Gods holy Spirit in them which carries all graces with it they cannot be holy and so not bee glorified if they be not holy first but that hereupon they need actuall faith is their saying without proof Actuall sins indeed require actuall faith but for sin in disposit on called originall why may not faith in disposition suffice through the mercy of God for the applying of it About the Infants of Sodom and Gomorrah they discourse marvellously as first in ranking them in their deaths with unreasonable creatures in theirs secondly in making them not onely innocent but godly also The Scriptures teach that besides the temporary death those Cities suffer the vengeance of eternall fire Let them proue children not to haue been of those Cities If God exempted them or any of them from that vengeance it was not for any condition cōmon to them with bruit beasts as they insinuate but with respect to Christ besides whom the Scriptures acknowledg no other Saviour nor no other salvation but by him ADVERSARIES TO a question moved by themselves What need Infants haue of Christ if they be not under condemnation they answer that through his redemption they liue and moue and haue their being and injoy all other earthly blessings with resurrection from the dead and glorification 1 Cor. 15. 12. DEFENCE THus they make Christ and Infants amends But how proue they that by Christs redemption they liue moue c The Scripture Act. 17 to which they haue reference is meant of the naturall life of all by Gods work of creation and providence which is nothing but continuation of creation and nothing at all to Christ as Redeemer The redemption for which Christ came is from sin and so from the curse due for sin as the Scriptures every where testifie The first Adam was made a living soule the last Adam a quickning spirit We haue therfore our naturall life motion and being common to Heathens with Christians by the first Adam our spirituall and glorious life by the second Lastly the Apostle saying 1 Cor. 15. 22 In Christ shall all be made aliue speaks onely of all beleevers as is evident v. 14. 17. 18. 19 who haue Christ for the first fruits and are Christs v. 20. 23. Are any Christs but Christians Is not the lump and the first fruits one Men should haue risen again though Christ had never come or been promised but to condemnation Our resurrection onely in regard of the glory of it is from Christs glorious resurrection And if Infants haue glorification from Christ then they haue the pardon of sinne from Christ also 1 Cor. 15. 17. 23 and therewith his Spirit dwelling in them for sanctifying and quickning them Rom. 8. 9. 10. 11. These men divide Chrst making him a King to some for glorification to whom hee is not a Priest for redemption by his bloud Next to a question by themselvs moved How wee must haue the Son they answer by keeping his commandements forgetting faith by which alone we receiv Christ from which followeth loue purity of heart and obedience Which faith hath more properly the consideration of a condition as a hand to receiv a promise then of an act of obedience to a commandment It is true being rightly understood which they add that repentance is of all sin to wit particularly of all sins known and generally of sins unknown For Who can understand his errours Cleanse thou me from secret faults said he that observed and knew his wayes better then either these men or I. Doe they think nothing amisse slips from them in thought word or deed or ever hath done whereof they doe not or haue not repented particularly Is their knowledge so perfect as they need not pray for further enlightning as Eph. 1. 17. 18 Are they certain they are ignorant of and erre in nothing in the Scriptures written for their bearning This their book sufficiently reproues their Pharisaicall dream of perfection Where speaking of Idolatry they affirm that God cannot bee worshipped after a false manner they expresly contradict the Scripture saying The people did sacrifice still in the high places yet unto the Lord their God onely Here was worshipping the true God and him onely and yet after a false manner in a respect The same the Apostle teacheth the Athenians The God whom you ignorantly worship declare I unto you When Papists direct their prayers to God the maker of the world and father of Iesus Christ hoping the rather to be heard by means of the Virgin Maries intercession who doubts but they worship the true God but in a false manner Neither doth Deut. 18. 20 proue the sin one of speaking in the name of a false God and speaking falsehood in the name of a true God but divers though both deserving death Next they in their wilde order come to treat of Faith where they affirm that no man can haue faith to justification before he haue repented If they had sayd that no man hath the grace or habit of faith before the grace of repentance it had been true God by the spirit of regeneration infusing the habits of all graces at once But that the act and exercise of faith in beleeving is before our repenting appears both by Scripture and common sense We liue the life of Christ wherof our repenting is a part by the faith of the Sonne of God God purifieth the heart by faith and justifies the ungodly by his faith In all which it is plain that faith hath the preheminence and first work So 2 Cor. 7. 10 Godly sorrow workes repentance Repentance then presupposeth godly sorrow Godly sorrow or whatsoever is truely godly must needs please God which without faith no man can doe but even every thing is sin Faith working that which worketh repentance must goe before it Secondly godly sorrow is not onely for the fear of punishment for so the devils are sorrie but for the offence of God specially Now none can be sorrie for his offending God except he loue God nor loue him except he know first that he bee loved of him in Christ in which faith consisteth We beleev therefore before we repent in the truth of the thing and order of causes though we can hardly discern this order in our own sense CHAP. VI. Of Baptisme IN the next place they come to
disciples Phillip and the rest had a calling extraordinarie These Adversaries neither haue the former nor challenge the latter And indeed by this defence so oft renewed by them they make it evident to all the world that they neither consider of their own practise seriously nor of mine exceptions Of the difference between teaching and baptising I shall speak in the fourth Rule as I haue also formerly both in this Treatise and else-where at large cleered their exception about ordination which they cunningly dissemble Here I onely demand of them whether one man alone without either presence or preceding election of the Church may ordain a Pastor as is their manner of baptizing And for me doe they not know in their consciences that I was ordained publiquely upon the solemn calling of the Church in which I serue both in respect of the Ordainers and Ordained Whilst then they account me wilfully blinde in putting difference between my Church ordination their Baptism they shew themselvs witlesly blinde in making them alike To my proof from Math. 3 that Christ in comming to Iohn to be baptized of him fulfilled all righteousnesse c. they answer That this is still done when any disciple c Wherein first they make both Iohn and Christ disciples of Christ Secondly if Christ had herein considered Iohn as an ordinarie disciple onely what needed he to haue come from one countrey to another even from Galilee to Iordan in Iudea to haue been baptized of him Why might he not as well haue used some ordinary disciple neer at hand Christ therefore in being baptized by Iohn fulfilled all righteousnesse in consecrating unto us Baptism as Circumcision to the fathers in his own person who of God is made unto us righteousnesse and that by Iohns ministery who had a most solemn and singular calling thereunto Lastly it is not likely which they take for certain that Iohn in these words I had need to be baptized of thee meant not to wit at all of the baptism with water considering that the quest on between our Lord and him was about that Baptism and none other The words therefore insinuate that some special state and calling is required in the Baptizer aboue these mens common disciple-ship Heer first in answering Ioh. 1. 19. 25 for their own credite they disgrace the Priests and Levits as blind and ignorant Pharisees for demanding of Iohn by what authority he baptized But considering both their places and Iohns practise in bringing a new ordinance of Religion into the Church they did nothing herein not well sorting with their office Secondly their answer that Iohn proovs his authority to baptize by proving his authority to preach from Esaias the Prophet Esa. 40. 3 shews how short their wits are in gageing the depth of the Scriptures He doth not proue his authority to baptize by a common authority or liberty to teach which any of Israel gifted might use but he justifies his whole ministery in all the parts of it by his speciall calling as the harbinger and fore-runner of Christ plainly foretold by Esay and Malachy Doe they think that the Prophets words The voyce of one crying in the wildernes appertained to every Israelite that could teach as they ascribe power to baptize to each of their teaching disciples Or might Iohn without a special calling haue instituted and brought into the Church as he did a new ordinance Yea I would know which of Iohns disciples ever offered to baptize Of whom yet it cannot be doubted but divers were able to teach As Cowards most vilifie in words where in deed they dare doe least so doe these men account this proof most vain against which they haue nothing to bring saving an equivocation in the word Ordinances and a cunning course in leaving out that which I alledg from Rom. 12. 3 which would discover the fallacie The different nature of baptism and teaching meerly by a personall gift is evident A man becomes a Prophet and able to teach by the gifts of the Spirit knowledge and utterance But I would know by what gift of the Spirit any becoms a Baptizer or able to baptize 2 Besides the Scriptures 1 Pet. 1. 12 the light of nature and generall law of loue shews that he who knows any thing profitable for another should in his place upon occasion declare it to him so as teaching by him that hath abilitie hath its plain foundation in nature But so is not Baptism by the light of nature but meerly ordained and instituted of God by supernaturall revelation in which respect I call it an ordinance And this consideration alone if there were nothing else wil with reasonable men oversway all their presumptions Actions of religion are some of them performed immediately from a personall gift and grace of the spirit in the heart as preaching or prophesying and prayer out of a speciall state or office others by no speciall gift of the spirit at all but by authoritie conferred upon some speciall person as the ministration of Sacraments censures ordination the like lastly some others by both as pastoral preaching prayer c the gift ministring abilitie and the office charge to use the gift for feeding of the flock committed to the officer In answering my fift Proof the alledg things partly imper●●n●nt and partly unreasonable Of the former sort is their discourse about the Eun●●chs being a member of Christ and his remaining in any particular Church Whereas they should haue answered directly whether by his faith and baptism hee had been made a member of any particular Church or not But they seeing what would follow upon a direct answer haue rather chosen an indirect evasion Of like hue is that which they add of Israels renewed covenant conceiving Israel as a true Church which we meddle not with in this businesse Absurd it is in it selfe and a slandering of our practise which they affirm of one casting out another where there are but two of a Church Which of us ever so held or practized One man or woman either may upon just ground separate from a whole Church may he or she therfore excommunicate a whole Church Or hath I. M. excommunicated the whole Church of England Separation where lawfull onely shews the liberty which every Christian hath to keep himselfe pure from the sins of others Excommunication imports a judiciarie power and state of authority to execute a solemn censure and punishment which appertains onely to the Church gathered together in Christs name which one cannot be Two may joyn together and so receiving one another mutually may become a Church or may upon just occasion part a sunder and so dissolv but cannot receiv in to speak properly or cast out one another by solemn ordinance this imports authority the former liberty onely But thus it becomes the new builders of Babylon to use brick for stone and lime for well tempered morter Their answer to my