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A55892 The principles of a people stiling themselves Philadelphians discovered in their nicest points and matters; accurately handled, shewing their rise, continuance, and tenents in doctrin and manner of proceeding, &c. Also a curious discourse between an English dissenter and French Protestant, by way of dialogue, in vindication of the Church of England against novelties in religion. Lafite, Daniel. Friendly discourse between an English dissenter and a French Protestant. 1697 (1697) Wing P3494A; ESTC R219027 36,218 131

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Man else can give an instance of any Church in the World from the Apostles times to these our days but what had a set Form of Prayers for though all have not used the same yet there is no Church but has used some Form or other 4. You condemn the Example and Practice of our dear Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ himself for it is evident that he himself made use of a Form of Prayer Matt. 26. v. 44. E. D. I will not undertake now to return you a particular Answer to what you have here alledged but shall onely say that Praying by a Form has by experience been found a hindrance and obstacle to true fervent Prayer in the Spirit and to deal plainly with you this seems to be one great reason why the Ministers of the Church of England are so dull and ignorant in this point and so little acquainted with spiritual Prayer F. P. I am not a little surpriz'd at this your Answer for having but just now proved to you that the Prophets and Apostles the Holy Catholick Church and Christ himself made use of Forms of Prayer you after all this come and tell me that Praying by Forms is a hindrance to Praying by the Spirit which is as much as to say that neither the prophets Apostles the Catholick Church nor Christ himself prayed by the Spirit because they made use of a set Form which is a near step to Blasphemy E. D. I did not design to say so much neither though I must confess that Praying by a set Form seems to me for I find it so by experience to be a great Obstacle to true spiritual Prayer F. P. Though it may seem so to you yet your Charity should lead you rather to question your own Judgment than to pass so rash a Censure upon the Saints of the Old and New Testament yea upon Christ himself besides you ought to be very wary of exposing your self to the derision of all men by supposing your self wiser than all the Prophets and Apostles than the whole Christain Church and Christ himself since it is most certain that they made use of Forms and not onely so but our Saviour himself prescribed a Form of Prayer to his Disciples commanding them when they prayed to use the same which he would never have done had it indeed been so great a hindrance to servent Prayer by the Spirit as you pretend E. D. If it be not a hindrance to others I am sure 't is so to me F. P. I hope I shall understand you better if you please to explain to me what you mean by praying by the Spirit E. D. I suppose no true Christian can be ignorant of what Praying by the Spirit is and therefore I can't see any necessity there is of explaining a thing so obvious to the understanding of all F. P. Since you seem unwilling to give me your meaning I am very free to give you mine to pray by the Spirit is as I take it to pray by the help and assistance of the Holy Ghost so as to have our hearts and minds deeply affected with the sense of our wants and all our Faculties and Affections inflamed with the Love of God and stedfast Faith in his Promises E. D. I perceive we do not disagree at all in the meaning of the words F. P. I am glad we are so far agreed for it is evident that according to this meaning of the words a set Form of Prayer is so far from being a hindrance that indeed it is a great help to fervent praying by the Spirit and on the contrary Extemporary Prayer must needs be a great impediment to it To convince you of this I desire you would consider that when we pray by a Form we have more time to study the import of our Requests and to weigh and examine every Petition with greater attention we have more leisure to understand and discern our wants and to present them before God we can the better prepare and dispose our selves for so holy a Duty and in a word we can be more intent and recollected to improve the motions of the Spirit having nothing else to doe but to fix our mind wholly on God whilst we are praising of him and have our hearts suitably affected with the things we pray for Whereas in Extemporary Prayer the mind of the Minister or whoever else it is that prayeth is taken up in hunting for expressions to utter his thoughts and for fear of being put to a stand he is forced to follow not the motions of the Spirit or the dictate of his understanding but the fluency of an acquired habit of Praying and by this means doth often begin where he should end and end where he should begin And those very men that speak so much against the necessary and edifying Repetitions that we use in our Common-prayer do very frequently in their Extemporary-prayer repeat the same things over and over again though it may be in different expressions And as for the People that hear a Minister pray an Extemporary-prayer as they do not know before-hand what he will say they must first attend to what he saith in the next place they must consider whether what he prayeth be according to the Word of God and fit for them to join with but whilst the Hearer is thus employ'd he that prays is got to another thing and leaves his Hearers behind to overtake him as they best can which according to my apprehension makes the way of praying extempore so difficult and uneasie that it is morally impossible for both Minister and People to pray so devoutly or at least so understandingly as they ought to doe If you please well to weigh and consider what I have here offered I question not but you will be convinced that a set Form of Prayer is so far from being a hindrance that it is a great furtherance to zealous praying by the Spirit whereas the Prayer you are so much taken with is indeed a great obstacle to it E. D. However Sir I suppose you will grant me that it is this tying themselves up to a Form that hath made the Ministers of the Church of England so dull and devoid of the Gift of Prayer that they cannot pray without Book and may rather be compar'd to those Dumb dogs whom the Prophet reproves than be look'd upon as Ministers of the Gospel F. P. Though I am a Stranger here yet I have very good reason to believe that I am better acquainted with the Ministers of the Church of England than you are and am better inform'd of their parts and abilities than you can be for I have made it my business to be acquainted with them not maliciously to slander and abuse them but to the end I might the better understand and value them and profit by them And if you will give me leave to speak my Judgment which is not grounded upon hear-say but upon good knowledge of and converse with
to stem the violent torrent of the Mobile and to hold out against the Persecutions of all the wicked Now that they might be qualified and capacitated for this strange and wonderfull undertaking God was pleased to indow them with many miraculous Gifts and Powers as of Prophecying speaking all sorts of Languages working of Miracles c. in order to which the Holy Ghost who is the true and alone Spirit of Prayer came down upon them in a visible and miraculous manner Which things being so for you to fetch an Argument from the Example of the Apostles either in respect of their Person Mission or extraordinary and miraculous Gifts and apply the same to your Ministers is every-whit as improper as if you should go about to prove that you or I can stop the Sun in his Course because Joshua did so E. D. I never intended by producing the Example of the Apostles to prove our Ministers equal to them as to their extraordinary gifts and graces neither do I suppose will you dare to compare the Coiners of your Liturgy or Common-prayer with those holy Men the Apostles of our Lord and Saviour F. P. I never did I onely said that the Compilers of our Liturgy were some of the most Pious and Learned men that ever England did afford E. D. They were no better than bigoted Papists F. P. How can that be when it is known that they suffered Perscution nay Martyrdom it self in the defence of the Protestant Religion and sealed and ratified the Common-prayer they had composed with their Bloud E. D. But pray Sir who gave them the power to compose the Common-prayer-book F. P. They had their Power and Authority from God and the King E. D. I shall be glad to hear you prove it F. P. That I will Sir for it is no such difficult matter as you may suppose I say therefore first that they had their power from God for they being Bishops and Governours of the Church had an unquestionable Power and Commission by virtue of their Charge and Office to redress and reform whatsoever was amiss in the Divine Service and forasmuch as in some foregoing Ages the Prayers of the Church had been corrupted and adulterated by inserting doubtfull Stories and Legends with a superfluous multiplicity of Responsals Prayers to the Blessed Virgin and other Saints Frayers for the Dead vain Repetitions Commemorations and Synodals c. they very wisely and prudently cast away all that was Popish and Superstitious retaining onely what was sound ancient and edifying and added f●●●e Prayers that were truly Apostolic●● and Primitive And besides they had a special Order and Command from King Edward VI. authorizing them so todoe E. D. I find all your Discourse comes to this that the Compilers of your Common-prayer-book onely chop'd and chang'd the Romish Liturgy and out of it with some Additions of their own patch'd up the Liturgy which is now used by the Church of England and which you do so much admire Now you know the Popish Liturgy is no other than their Mass-book which I think might to much better purpose have been quite laid aside than reform'd and patch'd up again F. P. I am not of your opinion and the Reasons that hinder me are these First Those Holy Men we are speaking of had no Power or Authority committed to them to plant or institute a new Religion but onely to reform the Abuses that were crept into the Church and the Corruptions of the pulick Worship of God which is the chiefest part of the Christian Religion now in this case it is evident that it was none of their duty or office to take away the whole publick Service or Liturgy which indeed at that time was very corrupt though not to that degree but that some good was still found amongst it but onely to change what was amiss to supply the defects of it and cast away whatsoever was corrupt or superfluous Secondly It was great wisedom in them to observe the mean between two extreams by shunning on the one hand a Spirit of bitterness and hatred against the Party they reformed from and on the other hand avoiding a sinfull compliance with the corruptions of those who were so unwilling to part with their Idolatry and Superstition And farther to illustrate my Argument I must tell you that the Reformers of our Church acted according to this commendable Maxim of Christian Charity and Moderation viz. That in love and condescention to the Church of Rome we ought not to reject any thing used by them but what is found contrary to the Word of God whereas the Reformers of your Party proceed according to this Rule That in hatred and detestation of Popery we ought not to admit the least thing the Papists make use of in their Divine Service and onely for this reason because they use it Now I would fain know of you which of these two you take to be the most Christian and Charitable method and whether the Principle our Reformers went by be not preferable to that of your Party The Reason is evident beyond dispute because our Reformers by retaining what was good and of primitive Purity in the publick Service of the Romanists and rejecting onely what was manifestly corrupt and superstitious they left a door open for them and as it were friendly invited them to leave their Adulterous Church and to enter into our Communion E. D. But pray tell me what great or good effect this Condescension did ever yet produce for I never understood that this their moderate and designing way of Reforming the Church has been a means to persuade the Papists to leave their Idolatry and Superstitions and to become Converts to their Church F. P. If I should grant you that the number of Popish Converts to our Church is not very considerable will it follow from thence that the means used for so good and charitable and End were undue or unlawfull For though God hitherto hath not been pleased to bless these good means with the greatest success that might be wish'd for yet we know not how soon he may especially considering that we had never more reason to expect the total downfall of Popery which according to outward appearance can no way so probably be brought about as by the Papists embracing the Protestant Religion Let us therefore take heed of deriding as you seem to do those lawfull moderate and Christian-like methods the Church of England hath made use to facilitate the Papists Conversion E. D. I find then you take your Common-prayer to be a lawfull moderate and Christian-like method or means to facilitate the Conversion of the Papists F. P. I do so and I question not but in due time it will prove very effectuall that way to the stopping of the mouths of all gain-sayers E. D. Ay you may look for it long enough I suppose and if by great chance it should ever prove to be an effectual means I dare say for all that