PETRVS VIRETVS THE Christian disputations BY MASTER PETER VIRET Deuided into three partes Dialogue wise Set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Ashe Math. vij d. 21. Not euery one that saith vnto me Lorde Lorde shall enter into the kingdome of Heauen but he that doth my fathers will which is in heauen MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EÌ„ VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East 1579. To the most Reuerent Father in God EDMVND by the permission of God Archbishop of Caunterbury Primate and Metrapolitan of England Iohn Brooke wisheth in this life prosperitie and eternall felicitie in Christ our Sauiour REading for mine owne priuate exercise and studies the worthie worke of Master Peter Viret entituled The Christian disputations right Reuerent Father the sweete entrie into the same with such pleasant allurementes of comfortable matter so drewe and tolled me forwade as vnnethes I coulde cease vntill I had cleane discoursed and gone thorowe the whole worke Which hauing once accomplished and due consideration therevppon had according to my slender capacitie I thought I coulde not bestowe my time in any thing more worthy gratefull acceptaunce then in publyshing and setting foorth the same that others might bee made pertakers of my comfortable delights and delightfull comforts takeÌ„ in reading hereoff Not meaning like a chorle alone to deuoure such a rich banket furnished with so greate a number of Iunkets and delicate dishes but to inuite thervnto according to the intent of mine Author a company worthy such a feast which being first prepared and dressed very cunningly after the French fashion I haue for the great good will and zeale â—owe vnto my natiue Countrie and for their better taste translated and set foorth the same after the English manner wherein my small vnlearned skill desirous of sure supportacion and good defence craueth your grace as chiefe to giue me credite and countenaunce against the byting sting of Zoilous persons hereticall Papists whose stomacks may in no wise digest or abide the good wholesome dyet in this feast prepared whose vnsauorie tastes as I seeke not to content so I feare not to offende Trusting your grace will accept this my bolde enterprise as proceeding of heartie good will towards you and earnest loue borne vnto my countrie preferring my zealous intent and the Godlinesse of the matter vnto the vnworthinesse and slender skill shewed in the translation As I shall dayly pray vnto Almightie God to gouerne and direct your grace in all your affaires by his holy spirite remayning euer Your graces bounden during life Iohn Brooke Iohn Caluyn vnto the Readers THE loue of God our Father and the grace of our Lorde Iesus Christ be giuen to you and multiplyed from day to day thorowe the communion of the holy Ghost There is an auncient Poet which saith that he which delyteth and profiteth altogether in his writings hath gained the price and fauour towardes all men The same is spoken bicause of the diuersitie of natures It is very true that the onely doctrine wherein we knowe it to be good and profitable ought to suffice vs for to incitate and prouoke vs to reade willingly a booke to giue and bestowe thereon all our studie to loue and set by it and finally to take pleasure in it But there are a great many and well neere the most parte which will be a greate deale better pleased that one should teach theÌ„ after a gentle pleasant fashion then otherwise In such sort that as in recreating themselues they may profite receiue instruction liuen then as those which occupie themselues to make bookes of pastime vaine and friuolous which cause the world to reade them are to bee vituperated and despised although they haue no corruption in them So on the other side those which haue the grace so to teach that they doe both delight and profite the Readers thorowe their pleasant stile are double to be praysed And in very deede that is a vertue a gift which is not in al men Yea often times the wisest cannot atteine vnto it And which is more do make themselues to be laughed at in desning that which is not giuen vnto them For a man which desireth to vse mery conceits and iests ought to beware of two vices The one is that he do nothing of compulsion or laugh ouer much as there are a great many which haue cold laughters the which do seeme as though they were pulled out of their throat by force The other is not to vse baudy silthy talk the which is called in Latine scurrilitas in our language pleasant iestes But to keepe the meane that is to know how to speak effectually and with a good grace so for to recreate that there be nothing spoken foolishly at all aduentures or vncomely which is no common vertue I doe speake this by reason of these present Dialogues out of which a man may so gather good instruction and yet notwithstanding he shall haue occasion to laugh For the matter of it selfe is very pleasant And is set out with such grace that it cannot be but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff Our brother and companion in the worke of the Lord Iesus Peter Viret who is the Author hath by nature the vertue which I saide to be requisite in that man which will medle himselfe therein It is vertue true that as in all other workes he giueth himselfe vnto a better studie and of greater waight So in these Dialogues his principall intent is not to delight the eares And in verie deede that shoulde be but a small labour and a paine euill be stowed of a man of such witte and knowledge Furthermore besides the giftes that he hath of God he is called vnto a more higher calling But forasmuch as the matter that he hath taken in hand to entreate off sheweth that he teacheth by order of pastime and merrie iestes he pretendeth notwithstanding the right doctrine as the true marke to shoote at mingling with the same some merrie conceites as a companion therewith all Yea in such sort that this booke is a suffient witnes that be hath a singuler dextentie to doe it yea euen as much as he will himselfe that is to say as much as is needefull or conuenient I doe knowe that it is a daungerous thing and that no man ought at the first sight to allowe a booke But I feare not to haue any rebuke of good men of such as are of sounde Iudgement to haue commended the reading of that booke as a booke in which the time shal be wel bestowed I neede not to bring witnes nor to speake among those which know the man This onely knowledge will suffice for to asâ—ure them that they cannot sayâ—e to stay themselues vpon it But bicause that it may
that they denoured Iacob and his people as a morsell of bread Thomas The places doe declare inough of themselues For he complaineth that his enemies are come into his enheritage and haue destroyed his people which is signified by Iacob of whom did procéede come the twelue tribes of Israel That is a manner of speaking common in all tongues Euen so doe we saye that a man is burned when his house is burned also wée do call the great théeues couetous persons tyrantes rauishers and vsurers the consumers and deuourers of the poore people widowes and Fatherlesse children not that they ease and deuoure mans flesh but bicause they destroy and deuoure their substaunce and many times cause them to dye for very pouertie and lacke Hillarius You haue alredy concluded y which I would haue concluded We cannot denie but that the Priests and Moonkes doe deuoure all the substance of the poore Christian people which is the true heritage of God and the true Iacob whome they haue consumed wasted and deuoured more cruelly then the Babilonians did vnto the Israelites For to make you better to vnderstande the effect sumine of our disputation I will comprehend it in a little sillogysme and playne conclusion Whosoeuer eateth the poore eateth the body of Christ The Priestes doe eate the poore wherefore it followeth infallibly that they eate the body of Iesus Christ The sillogisme is good for it is in his inode and dialecticall and logicall figure It néedeth no more for to proue the premisses and the Antecedent For you haue already graunted it vnto me by your aunsweres You doe then sée now friend Eusebius that I am not an heretick noither after God nor after the Pope For I doe confesse y true and spirituall manducation of the body of Iesus Christ the very papisticall manducation which is more truer then it is in the bookes of your Doctors I doe then thinck that you ought to content your selues with vs that the Pope ought not to pursue vs to the fire to such cruell death for that Article For I beléeue y there is none of all those whō you doe condemne for hereticks who are not ready to confesse as muche as I. And if you will compell them further me thinckes you doe them wronge For what can they confesse any more without speakinge againste the truth Nowe it resteth that I doe proue howe they doe eat the skinne and breake the bones for to haue the marrowe Wherefore I will take for my warrant and aduocate in this cause chiefly Michea amonge the Prophetes who speakinge both of them and of their like accuseth them after this manner sayinge Ye hate the good and loue the euill ye plucke off mens skinnes and fleshe from their bones ye eate the fleshe of my people and flaye off their skinne ye breake their bones ye choppe them in péeces as it were into a Cauldron and as flesh into a Pot. And as concerning the Prophetes that deceiue my people thus the Lorde saith againste them When they haue anye thinge to bite vpon then they preache that all shall bée well But if a man putte not some thinge into they re mouthes they preache of warre against him I doe neuer read those wordes of Micheah consideringe the auarice and rapacite of our false teachers and shepheards who doe feede themselues not the Lordes flocke but that mée thinckes I sée before mine eyes that greate and hidious Cerberus the dogge and porter of Hell with his thrée heades whiche hée hath for to deuoure eate and swallowe vp all that commeth vnto hym if one doe not cast a sop into his mouth euen as Aeneas and Sibyle did accordinge to Virgiles discription who hathe sette out his rage and vnsatiable madnesse speakinge after this sort There Cerberus infernall hound with throates vvide open three Doth havvle vvith barking noise at Lymbo mouth full huge to see Whose neck vvhen Sibly savve vvith startling snakes to swelling fixt A sop of bread vvith sleepy seedes and Honny sweete commixt Against his throat she threw he gaping wide his threefolde iawes All hungry caught that gub couching straite with stretched paws He bowed his boistrous backe and on the ground himselfe he spred Encombring all the caue and groueling lay with slombry head We haue a great number of such dogs who although they are mute for to preach the word of God for to crye against the abuses vices and offences for to chase and driue away the Wolues from the folde to defend the shéepe neuerthelesse are not mute but great cryers against the true seruaunts of God who cease not to barke bite deuoure except for to haue them quiet one do cast them some bone or sop in their mouth Now thincke if that infernall monster mad dog who hath but thrée heads and one belly be so hungry and insatiable what ought we to estéeme of so many Cerberus and of so many gluttons who haue so many heads bellies which are as the great goulfes of the sea It is not then without cause that y prophets comparing such shepherds to those great masties dumme dogs shamelesse idle knaues and insatiable vnto Lyons rauening Wolues who haue eaten nothing vntil Euening who do flay the skinne eat the flesh afterwards doe breake the hones and cast them into the pot for to eate and deuoure them and yet cannot bée satisfied and filled Wherefore I cannot beléeue but that Salomon by the spirite of GOD hath foreséene and spake of that generation and that hée minded to paynte it out vnto vs when he sayde There are a people whose téeth are swoordes and wyth their chaffe bones they consume deuoure the simple of the earth and the poore from amonge men The Horseléech hath two daughters the one is called fetche hether and the other bringe hether Theophilus Hée sayeth not wythout cause that shée hath two daughters For shée hath two throates and draweth the bloude from one side to the other But I am not abashed but of that that when hée nombreth the thinges that are not satisfied he hath also added those which are the most insatiable of all He sayth that there be thrée things that are neuer satisfied and the fourth sayth neuer hoe That is to saye hell a womans wombe and the earth hathe neuer water inoughe as for fire it sayth neuer hoe One may very well adde to these for the fift Hillarius It is no néede For among these foure they are alredy conteined in two for fault of one Hath not Salomon spoken of the fire who neuer saith hoe For one cannot finde so much as it consumeth There was neuer fire that molted and consumed so much goods as the fire of their Purgatory of their kitchin which is of y same nature Againe is not y hell comprised among those insatiable things May wée not well speake that
of them which Dauid hath written of his enemies saying their throat is an open sepulchre And that which Esay speaketh off saying hell gapeth and openeth hir mouth meruailous wide For of all that they can once lay hand on nothing euer retourneth againe no more then from the mouth of hell and graue But which is worse the graue consumeth deuoureth but the dead bodies but these do deuour both the quick the dead And we may very wel say y these are the Harpyes of whom Virgile maketh mention off But bicause they are faire and goodly sepulchres as the Scribes Pharises who do neuer cease to crye Corban Corban giue giue offer offer and as the daughter of the Horseléech Bringe bringe to the candles of the good Sainct Bicause they are so beautifull pollished without y poore world cannot know theÌ„ although they do sée them deuoure eate vp widowes houses before their eies vnder colour of long praiers For they haue those goodly habites of religion goodly Ornaments Ceremonies goodly names titles and that goodly appearaunce of holinesse which do couer beautifie those sepulchres tombes in such sort that men cannot perceiue the filthinesse infection that is there hidden and kepte close within but passe ouer it without any aduisement as men doe by the Sepulchres Theophilus They are more open and dyscouered then néede required For GOD hathe nowe raysed vppe a people whome they woulde not haue who haue in suche sorte remoued all that filthe and infectyon that it stincketh throughoute the whole worlde And we must not be abashed if they call them the Sepulchers of Iesus Christ and though they doe meruaylously stincke sith that Iesus Christ is altogether deade in them and to them and that they haue nothing at all For if Christ lyue not in vs what other thing can wée bee but dead carryons stincking and infectious who doe not onely rotte and consume themselues but doe rotte and consume with them all other things Eusebius All of you doe cry out agaynst the Priestes Haue you now all sayd It was not inough for Hillarie to speake euill and backebite but that you must ayde and helpe him Theophilus and meddle also as well as hée Theophilus You neuer sawe a man that delyteth lesse to speake euill and backebite and to heare euill speakinge and tales But truth constrayneth mee and you oughte to vnderstande that to speake truth for the health of ones neighbour is not to speake euill backebite and slaunder any man Would to God I coulde speake as much good of them as of the Apostles For I doe loue better to praise their vertue charitie and mercy then to dispise their vices crueltie auarice and rapacitie But what will you that I speake If I doe sée a poore man who is wandring alone in a forrest or woode full of théeues am not I bounde to giue him warning of the daunger he is lyke to fall in If I say nothing vnto him am not I guyltie of his death sith that I knew the daunger And if I encourage him to enter and tell him that there is no daunger am not I then more culpable and worthy to be taken for a murtherer of my poore brother But if I doe admonish him of the daungers and of the théeues Doe I wrong vnto the theenes in callyng them by their name Shoulde I doe better and according to Gods commaundemet to call them good people for to saue their honour and that I should put my brother into their handes to haue them to cutte his throate What goodnesse can I finde in those who from the greatest to y least are al excommunicated iudged Simoniacks and Heretickes vnworthy of all Ecclesiasticall honour and office not onely by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures but also by their owne councells decrées and Canons For how many Councells Decrées and Canons be there that doe forbid to demaunde and take giftes rewardes presents hire or siluer nor any thing whatsoeuer it bée for creame baptisme orders laying on of hands for y earth nor Sepulture neyther for Sacraments nor whatsoeuer office is in the Church vnder payne of excommunication and to be holden and reputed Simoniackes Heretickes and Sacriledgers and depriued and deposed from theire offices and honours and not onely they that receiue the money but also those who doe giue it for such things Thomas There shall be then by that compte no Christian who shall not be excommunicated For among the priests there is not one but hath receiued money for such thinges nor among the people but hath disbursed somewhat Theophilus Therefore you may consider what communion may be in y Popish Church For Saint Peter did not only curse in the authoritie of God Symon the Sorcerer of whome Simony and Simoniackes haue taken their name but also the money that he offred for to buy the gifte of God withall Now if Symon for offering y money hath receiued such malediction what ought it to be vppon them that doe cleane contrary to Saynt Peter who doe not onely receiue but also doe compell the poore people to giue it them I doe not héereby meane that the true Euangelycall Priests and true Pastors of the Church are not worthy of their nourishment and rewarde But I speake agaynst those Merchaunts which are in the Church of God whom Saynt Peter hath forespoken who haue both GOD and the Diuill to sell Paradise â—nd Hell holy things and prophane things and which doe exercise merchandises of all things and are polluted and dâ—filâ—d with all Simonie and Sacriledges that they themselues haue bene constrayned to condemone them And he that will not beléeue me lette him read Platine in the lyues of the Popes and the decrees of the Councell of Elybertine holden in Spayne in the time of Constantine and that of Tholet holden in the yeare 713 and that of Calcedone And the 4. of Carthage And the Councell of Tiburien and Varensian who doe condempne namely those that take money for the buryalls saying after this manner Wherefore dost thou sell the earth Remember that thou art earth and into the earth shalt retourne agayne For the earthe is not mans but as the Psalmist Dauid witnesseth the earth is the Lords and all that therein is If thou doe sell the earth thou shalt be holden guyltie of larcenie as he that attributeth vnto himselfe the thing of an other mans Thou hast receyued it of God fréely giue it fréely And bicause it is altogether forbidden to all Christians to sell the earth vnto the dead and to deny vnto them the graue and burial which is due vnto them Item we must commaunde according to the authoritie of the Canons that one should not demaunde or receiue any thing for mens burialls nor for their graues And hée that would sée the opinion of Gregorie lette him reade the Epistle wherein he rebuked Ianuarius Bishop
house should be purified after that burying Although that we read not all these words of Ioseph so expressed placed in the bookes of Moses yet neuerthelesse Ioseph which was himself a Iew a man of great knowledge well séene in the customes Iudaical things was not ignorant of the manner of their burials funerals the causes wherfore they did all those things He maketh no mention no more then Moses the one should not make sacrifice nor offring for the health and saluation of the dead nor that one shoulde sprinkle it with holy water and with the consecrated water that they dyd héepe mingled with the asshes of a younge Heyfer for the purificatioÌ„ of that lyuing not of the dead but witnesseth only that the domestical or those of that house which wer assisting helping at that funerals burials or touched the body shâ—â—ld be purified by the ceremonyes ordeined of God principally by that consecrated water with that asshes of an Heyfer the which was a figure as witnesseth the Apostle of the bloud of Iesus Christ by which we are purified who hath done that whiche the water and the asshes of the Heyfer could not do Wherefore we haue no more néede of suche ceremonyes sith that they are accomplished and fulfilled by Iesus Christ And yet much lesse of other new inuented by mans presumption That then which the Israelites used certaine ceremonies and mournings about the dead had two respectes The first was to the ende that the people of God should not bee like unto the barbarous and heathen people as those of whom we haue already spoken off whiche did make lesse account of the bodies of that dead men yea of theire owne parents and friendes then of the carcases of brute beasts Agame euen as the Lord would that his people should be farre from such inhumanity and barbarousnes so would hee prouide on the other side for another greate vice which raigned amongst the Panims who did to much excéede in sorowing and mourning in ceremonies superstitions Idolatries and with to greate expenses about their dead and funerals Besides all this they did many things not seemely to men For some of them did rounde and poll their heades beards heares the mourning as Herodotus witnesseth of that Aegyptians There were also which did hurte and pricke themselues with lancets and made the bloud to come forth of their bodies in the honoure of the dead for to witnesse their dolor after the same sort as the Pricsts of Baal did in praying to their God Baal And the Priestes of Cyble in lyke manner who in that pointe followed them They did also make markes in theyr fleshe with greate superstition the whiche thinges the Lord did forbid his people namely in Leuiticus And therefore those good patriarches and prophets who were prudent and wise and guyded thorowe the spirite of God haue found a good meanes to let and stoppe those vices and excesse which they did commit aswell on the one side as on the other amongst the Panyms For if the Panims themselues haue regarded that and haue néede lawes and statutes for to correct the vndecent things that was there commytted And the pompe and foolysti cost that men bestowed about such banities we must not be abashed if the people of God who ought to be the rule and moderation of all others haue so well prouided for the same for to kéep a meane in all things For it is not possible that man how spirituall soeuer he be can rob or take from man all humayne aflection but that there abydeth alwayes a meruaylous desire in his heart of the person absent whom he loued especially when thorowe death it is seperated from him Sith then that one cannot plucke away altogether that affection from mans heart he must at the lcastwise set some lymitte to the ende that he excede not measure as the Panims did For so long as the affection is too great insomuch that it draweth vs from God and maketh vs to staye more vnto the creatures then is néedefull it cannot please god And therefore euen as the Lord leaueth vs to be man and suffereth our humayne affections which haue some agreeing with his nature and are the seede and prickes of vertues so will he not suffer them to flowe ouer or aryse aboue the lymittes of reason and honestie as we haue already touched in another place The same then that the Heorewes and Israelites had some certayne number of dayes for to mourne and lament their parents and friends that were dead was not for to restrayne euery one generally and perticularly to lament and mourne one so many dayes without adding or dimimshing any as if the number of the dayes were necessary or that it conteineth any relygion and holynesse in it but to the ende that those which should mourne and lamont if one coulde not kéepe them from it altogether without doyng greate biolence to their affections at the leastwise they should not passe that lymit and time which was bsed and prescribed and which was long inough and sufficient for to satisfie their heart and to mitigate their sorrow and heauinesse Wherefore I doubt not but that Saynt Ambrose hadde regard unto that honostie and modestie not for to induce the christian people unto Iewishnes but to follow rather the erample of the holy Patriarches and Prophets then of the Panims As we may manifestly iudge by his own wordes without seekinge the glose and interprctation any further For first of al he erhorted not that people to play vnto god for the soule of Theodosius but witnesseth euidétly the he accoÌ„pteth holdeth him to be saued affirmeth many times the his soule is at rest in lyght felicitie with Iesus Christ his lord Also he teacheth not the people to in uocate pray vnto him not withstanding the he holdeth him as a saint in the kingdoÌ„ of god but admontsheth to pay vnto the childre the which they do owe vnto the father saying they owe him more after he is dead then when he was liuing After wards declareth vnto theÌ„ the meanes how thei ought to acquite order themselues towards their good Prince after his death that is in commending his young children whom he hath lefte to be heires of the Cmpire and that they declare towards them the fidelytie faith loyaltie and loue that they had towards their father It is sufficiently declared the ther is no meane more proper nor any good déedes more agréeable nor more profitable for the dead then to haue in commendacion and prayse their successours children and friendes On the other side hée comforteth the children and chiefely goeth aboute to niltigate the doloure and sorrow of Honorius bicause that it was not lawfull for him to accompanye the relyckes that is to saye the other parte of the body of his father which was carryed to bée buryed vnto Constantinople as they accustomed to doe
the aunerent Doctors of the Church he laboureth and enforceth himselfe if he can relieue it through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees by occasion whereoff is intreated the difference which ought to be put betweene the bookes that are Canonicall those that are Apocryph And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie reputation that booke ought to be among the Christians Afterwards although peraduenture there shal be some matters which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men yet neuertheles shall be spokē of the Limbes as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead dead without circumcision baptisme of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new old testamēt as wel little as great as wel quick as dead of their condition estate We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions that there is good prositable necessary points to be vnderstanded for to correct many errors abuses false opinions thuching those matters which are come among the Christians Ther shal be in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by womē declared by liuely plain reasons how Iesus Christ is the onely health satisfaction of all the elect children of God how the vertue efficacie of his death pasion extendeth it selfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same Item what is the true baptisme of Iesus Christ the remission of sinnes the satisfaction worthy of the righteousnesse of god To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Christian What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill and by what means some are deliuered and other some doe abide subiect Furthermore how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one and whether we ought yet to attend loke for it And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world when their full and whole consumation shal bee It shal be in like manner declared how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory And there shall be also declared of the manner by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead and for the comming of Iesus Christ and wherein the Christians may follow it without speaking against the word of god It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory and the prayers for the dead and what maske instrument he hath chosen for to do that Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels bicause that wee doe declare how many hel 's the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded ¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels EVsebius For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first Wherfore I giue him the choice whether he will go before or behinde Hillarius I desire for my part that Thomas doe rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it Thomas Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace if you wyll For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée you will mocke me chiefly Hillarius who is so expert in that occupation I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent For the matters that you haue to intreat off are better then those which you can heare of mée And in hearing you I may profite but in speaking I can but spende the time the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende And therefore beginne and after if there be any spare time I will sée what I shal do Theophilus I beleeue that we shal haue time inough Feare not thē to begin sith y thou hast alredy told vs y thou wilt not be ouer long But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much knowing that the more thou refusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund so much y more we desire it Thomas I haue regard vnto another thing I consider y which Salomon hath writtē saying if a foole do hold his tongue he shal be counted wise For he compareth man to a loohing glasse or a bell y which one doth know by the sounde whether they be broken or whole So in like manner may one iudge of man in hearing him speake whether hée be wise or foolish For one perceiueth the spirit of man in his word As his figure in a glasse and one may beholde in the same the nature of him as the complection of the body in his water vrine by which it is easie to iudge what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine Hillarius Thou wilt that one should saye of thée that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man y he did sée sit at a banket which spake not a word although y all the others did put foorth certeine questiōs gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course If that man saith he be a wise man hée playeth the part of a foole if he be a foole he playeth the part of a wise man. Thomas I cannot well vnderstand that matter For me thinketh that it conteineth implyeth contradiction Hillarius He giueth therby to vnderstand that euen as too much speaking apperteineth vnto fooles ideots so alwaies to holde ones peace agréeth to beasts and not vnto men Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things Thomas That is the same to the which I pretend And I doe thinke that I speak ynough according to the place men with whom I am And bicause y I am not wise for to speak wel I wil at the leastwise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise For it is cōmonly said it is euil to speak Latin before learned men When I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe I doe speake as a Doctor especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they But when I come before you I doe loose by and by all my babling Hillarius Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised Thomas Sith y thou vrgest mée so much thou shalt haue it But if thou doest mocke mée bée assured that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee for
works in vs For nothing pleaseth him but Iesus Christ his welbeloued sonne in whom he deliteth and no workes can be found agréeable but his For there is no goodnesse but in him Wherefore if we will haue any good thing in vs we must séeke â— borrow it of him And if we will that our works be pleasing vnto God it is necessary that Iesus Christ do them in vs thorow his holy spirite or otherwise the heauenly father cannot allow nor receiue them for good nor yet giue vnto them reward Eusebius I doe greately doubt that in magnifiyng so much the grace and mercy of God and the efficacie of the death and passion of Iesus Christe you giue occasion vnto many to doe euill without euer caring to do any good workes For if that men haue once this opinion that they are saued thorow the onelye grace and mercye of God and that they cannot merite paradise by their good works what néede they care to do any good déedes if it doth not serue them no more then the euill Theophilus I do feare moreouer that the doctrin which thou holdest doth induce and leade them vnto that which thou sayest For how many hath there bene who hauing that opinion to satisfie in Purgatorye for their sinnes haue giuen themselues vnto al vices during their life hoping that they will prouide so well to their affaires that for golde and siluer they shal be incontinentlye deliuered from the paines of Purgatory after they be dead And so by that meanes they did thinke that it was not néedefull to studye to doe good workes For they did hope to finde in their purse all that that shoulde bée néedefull for theyr saluation But for asmuche as it is a question touchinge good workes whom doest thou thinke can doe them best eyther the seruant which laboreth thorow feare and compulsion who would doe no laboure if he feared not to be beaten of his master or if hée hoped not but to receiue a good rewarde or the sonne who thorow an entier loue towards his father and taketh pleasure in none other thing but to serue and honoure him wel bicause of the natural loue that he beareth vnto him and of the knowledge that he hath of the great goodnes and benefits that he hath reâ—â—ed and doth receiue daily of him without any seruile feare but onelye for the reuerence and good affection that he hath towards him Eusebius There is no doubt that those whiche serue onely for feare to be punished or for hope of rewarde cannot serue faithfully nor lawfully but are as the seruaunts which serue to please the eye and do good seruice whilest that the master is present notwithstanding they haue no good will towards him Theophilus Yet neuertheles those which do follow the doctrine the which thou holdest are altogether like vnto those here For either they do giue themselues altogether to their pleasures and delites hoping that they will satisfie by money for their sinnes and redéeme themselues or if they studie to doé well they doe it not but thorow feare as a subiect doth serue a Tyraunt fearing â—o fall into his hands or as Merconaries Hirelings not for the loue they haue to god but for the loue they haue to themselues And so by that meanes eyther they do make GOD like vnto a cruel Tyraunt or to a polling Iudge théefe who for money absolueth the euill doers and as a companion of théeues taketh his parte of the hootie with them or els they make themselus god doe worship the workes of their handes sith that by them they do saue themselues and merite Paradise Wherefore they haue no néede of Iesus Christ I demaund of thee which art but a sinful man if thou wouldst take for a true friend a man which should do vnto thée seruice only for y feare that he hath of thée least thou shouldest do vnto him hurt or for hope that he should haue to feare thée better wout which hee would make none accompt of thée nor would not set by thée Eusebius I would holde him for a true freind of the kitchin which loueth more his belly theÌ„ me of whoÌ„ he is a friend not of me Theophilus And yet neuertheles if thou dost wel consider the nature of the Hipocrits Pharises who do attribute somuch vnto their workes thou shouldest finde them of such an amitye towardes God for whose loue they doe not that they do but for the loue of theÌ„selues and doe not serue god but after y manner as the beastes do serue men or for the feare that they haue to be beaten or for the nurrishment and foode that they doe receiue But without staying our selues anye longer vppon that pointe let vs returne vnto our talke of the Limbe sith that thou puttest the Limbe for the one and Purgatory for the other what difference dost thou put betweene those which were in the Limbe and those which were in Purgatory sith that the one and the other according to your doctrine were depriued of the fruition of God I doe greatly feare that in the ende thy Limbe and Purgatorie will become hell For if the holy fathers aswell Patriarkes as Prophets were depriued from such a goodnes wherein did they differ from the dampned And in like manner those whom thou ledgest in Purgatorye what néed haue they of any more greater tormeÌ„t or of any other fire for to torment them And what solace can they haue more then y damned if they were depriued froÌ„ y loves of Paradise and yet besides that to bee deteined in the fire Hillarius But at that time for that there was no Masse nor papistical Priests for to pray and do sacrifices for the dead they should continue a long time in those paines torments And which is more sith that in that time none could enter in Paradise when they had accomplished the time of their paines in Purgatorye whether went they when they departed from thence They could not but departe from one hell for to go into an other that is to say from purgatory to the Limbe where they were compelled to abide alwayes locked fast in the prisons of Purgatory vntill the comming of Iesus Christ Theophilus For to speake the truth I finde no great difference betweene hell and those other two lodgings Eusebius But there is great difference For these here do hope to come once vnto the eternall felicitie from y which the dampned are altogether depriued Theophilus There is then none other difference but that the one are defeined and kept in hell and dampned for euer the others are not but for a time And so your Limbe and Purgatory shal be in nothing different from the hell of the Origenistes and Catabaptistes who were in this foolish and false opinion that there is neither man nor diuell dampned perpetually but that all those whiche are deteyned in hell after a long space of time shal