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A18439 A replie to a censure written against the two answers to a Iesuites seditious pamphlet. By William Charke; Replie to a censure written against the two answers to a Jesuites seditious pamphlet. Charke, William, d. 1617. 1581 (1581) STC 5007; ESTC S111017 112,123 256

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libertie to your penne in charging mee with common misalleadging of Scripture But seeing you graunt y t this second point of doctrine is also mainteined by the Iesuites euen in such sort as they are charged all men may see It is hard to say whether you are more ready to defēd their doctrine or to take a pretensed aduantage of quarell against my wordes In the thirde place the Iesuites are charged to say The first motions of lust are without hurt of sinne This third doctrine is graunted by the Censurer as most true and playne but yet I must not go without ●ome accustamed taunt Hee chargeth mee that by clipping their wordes I make euery thing to seeme a Paradox This is only says to accuse without any shew of proofe For what ●●nefit was there to mee in leauing out these wordes If they come of naturall in 〈…〉 onely without any cause giuen by vs or what gayne you by adding them seeing they are superfluous For I pray you are not all the first motions of lust meerely natural euermore of some cause giuen by vs and dwelling within vs namely the corruption of old Adam what shiftes are they then which you vse to helpe a weake cause If to defende this addition of waste wordes you shall obiect the temptations of Satan offered without any cause giuen by vs I answere you cannot properly call them motions of lust being but outwarde prouocations to lust and sinne wherewith many times a mortified man is not prouoked to lusting sinning by which neuerthelesse Satan woulde moue but is resisted by faith he entreth not in to worke those motions of lust which do affect vs and whereof our question is moued Your comparison bet 〈…〉 e these first motions of lust and the pulse making the one to be no more sinne then the other is without iudgement For you can not conclude from that part of our natural soule wherby we haue life and sense only to that part wherein our reason and affections are placed because the former is not in the same sort corrupted as the second neyther doeth sinne so woorke in naturall life and sense as it doeth in the heart by the corruptions and guiltinesse of the soule The necessarie actions of life as eating drinking sleepe breath also the ●●cessarie actions of sense as smelling seeing hearing feeling and the rest they are of themselues al free from sinne remaining as they were in man before his fall But euery imagination and cogitation of ma●s heart is euill euermore as God testified to No● much more the lusts and desires thereof Wherefore to compare the lustes of sinne to the pu●se which is meerely naturall and without sinne was to bring the simple into a dangerous opinion that the one is as lawfull as the other For a cleere example of this difference it may be 〈◊〉 that Christ had the working of the pulse and other naturall opera 〈…〉 of life and ●ense but hee was far euen from the least concupiscense I thinke in your owne iudgement Therefore this your example of the pulse to defende the first motions of lust is neyther in substance nor in shewe to any purpose Moreouer you make the first motions of lust no sinne because it lyeth not in our power to prohibite them by which reason you defende sinne by the necessitie thereof But seeing this necessitie commeth of our selues by our corruption and custome of sinne how can it be any excuse or defence for the trespasse what wil you say to originall sinne shall it be no sinne because it lyeth not in vs to resist it no more then we can resist our owne conception and is lesse in our power to resist then the pulse Like to the former comparison of the pulse is that which followeth making the first motions of lust to be no more sinne in vs thē they are in beastes But this comparison proueth no more the● the other for as there is no law giuen to prohibit the pulse so there is no lawe to restraine these motions in beastes but man is tyed to a lawe for euery action last or first great or small as is proued by the great commandement Thou shalt loue the Lorde thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soule and with all thy strength and with all thy mynde So that what lust or thought soeuer swarueth from this entire and absolute loue of God it is against this his commandement and therefore a sinne against his most soueraigne and most glorious Maiestie to whome wee owe all the seruice and holinesse of all the heart of all the mynde and of al our powers whatsoeuer Therefore to say wee must not or can not pull in the raynes of our first lustes or that they are as lawfull in vs. as the pulse or as they are in bruite beastes is indeede to reache a beastly libertie and to laye open the way to all vncleannesse without controulement Yf all your readers did knowe howe little proofe is made by similitudes they would all see the insufficiencie of your defence that so often vse them and so vnfitly in place of playne and sure arguments Now for the tenth commaundement alledged as a contrary doctrine y t Censurer sayth it is not any way repugnant to that the Iesuits teach For proofe whereof as the Papistes make of the tenth commaundement two commaundementes so this fellowe maketh of two seuerall breaches of two diuers commaundementes but one sinne and that agaynst the seuenth commaundement onely But there can not be a commaundement agaynst the which there is no sinne Therfore as it was declared in the former article there is a sinneful desire first which is concupiscense agaynst the tenth the assent whereunto maketh it adulterie which is a sinne of another degree and agaynst the seuenth commaundement So the Censurer must by duetie receyue home agayne his owne ●aunt of hudling and confounding for confounding the sinnes of two diuers commandements Furdermore y ● Censurer being ca●ied awaye into errour by the olde translation against the trueth and other faithfull translations woulde proue that the lawe is in our power to doe it and that therefore these first motions of luste are not forbidden by the tenth commaundement because it is not in our power to resist them That his argument may appeare I will set it downe to be more easily discouered Whatsoeuer is commaunded that is not aboue vs but in our power to resist the first motions of lust is not in our power therefore to resist the first motions of lust is not commaunded The first proposition is false and as I said a false translatiō brought to proue it For Moses saith The Lawe is not hidden from vs and the Censurer saith It is not aboue vs Moses sheweth that it is reuealed the Censurer would proue that it is in our power Moses speaketh chiefly of the Gospell and the Censurer referreth it altogether vnto the tenne commandemēts But that the
to haue fully answered the chiefe matter of this article but you drawing me on with your tauntes I must answere to them also For the difference of an Image and an Idol you knowe my answere and I acknowledge not your difference Couching your honours done to the creature and creator I doe not maliciously confound them but you do vnlearnedly make a distinction in wordes when in deede there is none When wee teach y t al your worshippes are idolatrous we offer you no wrong neither do we therin blind our hearers or charge you with doctrines which are not your own For if any worship be greater then other that you giue to the crosse and image of Christ you can not denie this being your playne doctrine as I haue declared by Thomas by Saunders by Andradius so expressed as we can not more expresse it against you Therefore we doe not mainteine matter of rayling against the true Catholike Church which hath alwayes more detested all Idola●●●e then your Church doeth or can defende it For your repeated words God forgiue you I must conster them in the best part but comming in the middest of other scosses they giue me occasion to note that many offend in the vttering of them against God whose name they take in vaine and against their neighbour whome they curse and tant with wordes that import a charitable prayer which is to be reformed in our speach least such sinnefull vse of good wordes increase the note of euill maners All these XIII articles are graunted yet your Censureshippe doeth couer the graunt most carefully as one that knowes well what shame it is playnely and openly to graunt so foule absurdities You might haue prouided better for your owne credit and agaynst mine if you had directly denied but one of them to proue at the least one slaunderous false report for this alone woulde haue preuailed more against mee then all your naked vauntes and vndeserued sentences of disgrace But no one being denyed what cause had you as fearing no examination of your booke and without all regarde of trueth to saye Thus I haue answered briefely your slaunderous false reportes of the Iefuites doctrine In place of an answerer you haue only shewed your self a cauiller passing by the matter you haue prop●unded to your selfe newe propositions from the purpose such as you might more easily confute thē those wherewith you are charged Therefore it appeareth notwithstanding your Censure that I haue with seemely and fitte wordes charged the Iesuites that they teach blasphemies against God and his worde that they are the Popes procters in that seruice and bewraye the spirit of Antichrist Let the record of your false sentence charging mee with a lying spirit of Antichrist with an ignorant and rayling spirit remayne with the placing of your name for mine til you haue otherwise proued that my speaches against the vncleane doctrine and rebellious practises of your Iesuites are vntrue or rayling And because so cleare places in the worde of God with the interpretation of the name and nomber of 666. agreed of by auncient fathers and founde to accorde with the Latin and Hebrewe wordes doe make Antichrist to sit at Rome in the citie buylded vpon seuen hilles if they make it to be a Latin and Romish Church let y ● record stande agaynst the Pope y t he is Antichrist and against al other his instruments for that they haue the spirite of Antichrist full of all corruption Wheras you charge me that my zeale ouerranne my witte in reporting the former doctrines as blasphemous it is to speake without proofe and to slaunder without controlement For I must agayne saye that all your ignoraunt euill zeale and al your witte knoweth not howe to denye any one of these XIII articles except you will willingly wittingly runne into a curse of the Trent Councill Therefore your bitter taunt was without cause in respect hereof as also in respect of that y t followeth about a masse booke For in my conscience I am not priui● y t I did at any tune crye out or at all vtter these wordes A bla●phemie findyng the blessed virgin named mother of God Wherefore vntil you bring better proofe of it my religious deniall shal more then weigh downe your hateful affirmation conuince you of breaking y t nienth cōmandemēt by raysing ●●ch infamous reproches in print agaynst your neighbour eyther vpon light report of an enemie o● vpon your owne imagination I am not in this sort ouergreedie of your discredit to whom in that generall loue I owe to all men I wish in the Lorde the riches and honour of true godlinesse praying that you may receiue the loue of the trueth and bee blessed as I woulde bee blessed But this your cause of teaching errour and labouring to roote out the gospell must more and more bee brought into discredit eyther to drawe you to a loue of y t trueth or to make you ashamed of such lies If I did in deede any way hurt my cause you loue it not so well as to admonish mee thereof but I trust y t Lord would prouide me more faythful remēbrancers For your next wordes of reproche that wee seeme to haue made a compact betweene vs euery man to lye his part howe vntrue are they and howe full of reproch To lye is a fowle sinne but to lye with consent and conspiracie that the lye may haue the more force and greater credit it is double iniquitie and furder from vs by the grace of God then from any of you If the force of trueth ouerbeare you not without Gods extraordinary iudgemēt I looke not to see you ouerborne This thirtieth leafe of your booke will afford a scantlin of your brotherly loue if any man will take the measure Notwithstanding in the ende you please mee so well that I must thanke you for your helping hande in a good woorke And although you tell the tale so that I may seeme to haue a fellowshippe in the offence yet being free I subscribe to your good a 〈…〉 tisement against imprinting lying 〈◊〉 as that from Rome For it is so great a sinne to imprint lyes and r●●ore for ●●●thy lucr● and euery where ●o empty mens purses and ●●ll their heades with ●ables that for such an inquitie euery such Printer 〈…〉 ueth to carye a print of his vngod 〈…〉 coueto●snesse 〈◊〉 dishonour offered to 〈◊〉 so excellent and so profitable 〈◊〉 Touching the purpose of him that to perswade the all●wance was like to aff 〈…〉 the 〈…〉 er 〈◊〉 he were a Papi●● such as is 〈◊〉 like 〈◊〉 tell what is done at Rome hee had a 〈…〉 d to sinne hi 〈…〉 of purpose that he 〈…〉 ht laye it 〈…〉 If it were 〈◊〉 you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 woulde so 〈…〉 e y t Pope which cannot be gathered by any word in all the 〈◊〉 it was in him a greater sinne For without lying newes there is true matter ●●ough
to occupie your answerer more in finding out your places then in making answere to foure of your bookes But I thought only to note your practise herein nowe let vs returne vnto the matter Martin Luther doeth neyther him selfe exclude Matthewe Marke or Luke from beyng the Gospel neyther woulde he haue anye man barre the other writings of the Apostles from that title because all that was written by the foure Euangelists and what so euer the holy Apostles wrote beside in the newe Testament all that is one Gospel in substance though there be foure whose seuerall bookes vsually are called foure seuerall Gospels Therefore to speake of the foure Euangelists first in respect that the holy Ghost vsed them as foure pennes and foure witnesses all writing the Gospel and storie of the doctrine and deedes of Christ we may say there are foure Gospels But in respect they 〈…〉 te in an heauenly harmony in one Spirite in one trueth for one and the same woorke of faith the Gospell being one and the same in all foure there are not foure but one Gospell As for the rest of the Apostles what they haue left to the treasure of the Church in the booke of God that also is the same Gospel and the Apostle doth call his doctrine and Epistles by that name which is to be obserued for auoyding a corrupt iudgement in thinking lesse authoritie or maiestie of Gospell in the Epistles then is in the bookes of the foure Euangelists for in respect that they were sent from the Apostle to the Churches absent they are called Epistles as other mens letters are called in like case but in respect of the doctrine therein deliuered it is the same which saint Luke and saint Iohn did write and beare no lesse honour howe so euer some custome of speach otherwise doeth hinder a right iudgement in this behalfe To this thirde article onely hath the Censurer giuen his Censure wherein hee hath not so much reproched Luther as bewrayed some want of exercise or iudgement in the Scriptures His wordes are that Luther saide this because the other three Gospels spake too much of good workes whereby the Censurers opinion is cleere that Saint Iohn speaketh lesse of good woorkes then the rest I graunt that Iohn hath a speciall course in describing the diuinitie of Christ and the loue of God towarde vs but that hee is inferiour to the rest in teaching good workes I can not graunt it neither can the Censurer proue it But for proofe of that I say one or two places of many may be sufficient If loue be the fulfilling of the Lawe and the newe commaundement not to loue one another as euery man loueth him self but more perfectly and more aboundantly as Christ hath loued vs if to bring foorth much fruite as branches in the vine be the fountaine of euery good work if to follow the shepheard Christ and to obey his voyce be better then al sacrifices then Iohn doth most mightily teach the true doctrine of good woorkes 4 The fourth report is if any woman cannot or will not proue by order of 〈◊〉 the insufficiēcie of her husband let her request at his handes a diuorce or els by his consent let her lye priuily with his brother or with some other man Accuse not vs for your fault but couer it or take the s●●me thereof to your selues True it is Luther gaue this euill counsell but as he answereth for himselfe hee did it when he was yet among you teaching shriuing priestes what to answere when such doubtes are moued by them that come to shrifte Also hee sayth it was his aduice when hee was holden with the feare of Antichrist but now saith hee speaking of the time after his conuersion my mind is to giue other counsel What holy writings can bee free from your foule reproches if you will thus racke a peece of sentence against the manifest purpose of the writer But it appeareth that you wrote these things by he are saye or made none account what examination your booke abide your name being vnknowen 5 In the fift place you laye downe these woordes against Martin Luther If the wife will not let the maide come These wordes thus barely set downe import a wicked opinion and doctrine tending to carnalitie as if Martin Luther allowed of fornication sending the vnruly husband to his maide seruant vpon any refusall of the wife But they were of set purpose and malice tent from the other words and sense of the writer to make a shewe of that opinion which was neuer in M. Luther reclaymed to the knowledge of the Gospel For in this place he speaketh of a thirde cause of diuorce when the woman shall obstinately refuse her husbandes companie bringeth in the man often threatning his wife with these wordes which if they preuayle not hee maketh his complaynt to the Magistrates and doeth nothing but after a solemne diuorcing as was that of Vasthi and after a solemne espousing as that of Esther which example he setteth downe in the same place and alludeth vnto it by some Dutch phrase not founding so west in other tongues as the matter will beare being rightly taken If this opinion of diuorce seeme grosse as it may yet your Poperie whence this proceded hath somewhat more grosse euen in this poynt For it permitteth a man if hee will to put away his wife because she was a bondwoman and he knewe it not before the mariage The like is alledged out of Austen to prooue that a man may bee diuorced from his wife for couetousnesse or such other sinnes because they are spiritual fornication 6 The sixt report of Luthers doctrine is that Matrimonie is much more excellēt then virginitie Mariage was ordained in Paradise mariage increaseth the number of saintes it is honorable among all men 〈◊〉 so much cannot be sayd for virginitie The comparison I will not stand vpon they are both good yet neither good for all but mariage for him that can not conteyne and virginitie in some respectes as the Apostle noteth which Luther in many places doth like wise acknowledge The sixt point might seeme to you a beame in his which to vs woulde not haue bene deemed a mote in your eyes 7 Your seuently report is that Christ and Saint Paul dyd not counsaile but disswade virginitie vnto Christians It is not hard I suppose to drawe out from you the iustification of this doctrine for you cannot thinke that Christ perswadeth all men to abstayne from marriage Seeing his wordes are not generally spoken to all whatsoeuer but to alsuch as can containe He that can receiue le● him receiue Which wordes for auoyding of sinne implie thus much also not as counsaile onely but as a commaundement he that can not containe let him marrie to auoyd fornication as S. Paul inforceth So that all Christians which haue not that rare gift of continencie for