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A07896 A courtly controuersie, betweene looue and learning Pleasauntlie passed in disputation, betweene a ladie and a gentleman of Scienna. Wherein is no offence offered to the vertuous nor any ill motion to delight the vicious. Munday, Anthony, 1553-1633. 1581 (1581) STC 18268; ESTC S120601 20,172 84

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he regarding more the Looue of his Lamia then the safety or 〈…〉 〈…〉 take my Lamias life thou leauest 〈◊〉 her looue behinde with me She being dead as some writers affirme was by him kissed and imbraced as 〈◊〉 whē she liued whē he saw n● remedy but y ● law of nature must haue her due he causd her sepulcher to be made before his window whereas he vsed once a day whilste he liued to waile y e death of her In so much y e it was proponed by the Philosophers of Athens 〈◊〉 woorkes yet liue and in spight of 〈◊〉 they vaunt of victory Therefore Madame heere was looue loste with Lamia and though Demetrius 〈◊〉 her his Learning did loathe her And therefore I hope this example may make you content not to striue any further Ladie Nay Sir you shall not so shake me off séeing you by common Courtizans doe rather gaine glory then by loyall looue vsed of constant Ladyes I will now requite your example with the like although I might rather blushe then to boaste thereof Yet séeing we stand vpon example hetherto onely vpon prayse and disprayse of Looue I purpose now to wade a little farther and either to prooue Looue Soueraigne of Learning or Learning superior and looue his Subiect I am sure you are not ignoraunt of Flora for that I heard you name her of late the life of whom though I wish not to commend so will I not condemne her wisedome in the subtill Schooling and Nurtering of her Pupils or Schollers FLora was of byrthe noble of nature gentle of personage beautifull and of Looue liberall in so much that ouer the place where she dwelt she set vp this scrole or prescripte Except King Prince Dictator Praetor Consull Censor or Questor heere is no place for any to enter As for Emperor or Keyser they were not then knowne this was her vse she neuer set her honour like Layes to salery for Laies would commonly haue her hyer before hande Now Flora had this fetch she as not respecting Goulde or Siluer gaue her selfe to be gouerned by her Loouer And so by this meanes she got treasure infinite for why this was her common phrase béeing one day demaunded the cause by Noble men why she refused to aske what she would haue she aunswered thus I cōmit my selfe quoth she to Princes and Noble men that according to my beautye I may be pertaker of their bounty For quoth she by the Gods whom I doo serue there was neuer man gaue me so little but that I had more then I lookt for or double to my demaund There ought quoth she no sage woman to set her selfe to sale for all things in y ● world are rated at a price except Looue and y ● is not to be payed but with Looue so that none ought to demaund duety for the amorous pleasure she dooth to a man but for the Looue she beareth vnto him This was y e opiniō of this Courtezan who though she were cōmon it was not so much for coyne as courtesie She sought to none yet was she sought of all The learnedst thought no shame to be her Schollers Then Ergo Looue was héere more regardant then Learning whē Consuls Censores left all for lust Looue of Flora. Whether was Wit or Wisdome héere best Scholler Witte wan Looue and wealth and Wisdome loste wealth and gaynde Luste Scholler Sure Madame you scan the sence contrary for though Flora found such fortune as that the wisest and wealthiest were bondmen vnto her beautie yet she neuer held Learning in subiection Learning still had liberty to triumphe ouer Looue although the learned were snared by her subtilty So that if Looue haue conquered any blame the Booke bearer and not the Booke for Learning it self neuer yet hath nor will bende to beauty I stand vpon this oppinion Ladie Of trothe I beléeue you thinke your selfe in your study or els you would not speake so obscure but what figure you take I know not but wel I note all your woords are per Allegoriam But Sir according to my Lodgicke I will approoue that as long as the Learned are liuing they enioy Learning and the benefit thereof you cannot seperate them a sunder for conquere one and take bothe Euen as a man should say take my heart and take my life naming two when one would suffise Therefore Sir I say that if Loone subdue the Learned shee then is conqueror of bothe vnlesse you will make a distinction touching the person of the one and the property of the other and that you cannot for that they bothe are so faste lincked as nothing can sunder them therefore you erre if to the contrarye you conster the case Scholler Well then I perceaue you will haue it either to what perfection you please or els you wyll not giue ouer And therefore as I remember Cornelius Suetonius sheweth a notable example to the vtter abollishing of Looue which you tearme amorous or pleasaūt pastimes and for because that you will not be perswaded that Looue can any way be reiected rightfully I will now by example prooue it to be so odious as you your selfe shall confesse it hath varyed from the lawes of Nature and this is the example THe Tirant Nero who not onely longe time moste● inordinately and beastly spoyled a number of Uir●ins and chaste Ladyes but also finding a beautifull Boye more pleasaunt in his eyes then any other Uirgin or woman caused his secrets to be spoyled thinking thereby to haue him transformed to his owne pleasure by such a Metamorphosis as of a man to haue a woman Not long after he married him naming him Sporus endowing him with such secret duties as to a Wife are due by dowry Héere was lust more thē law of Nature and yet it was Looue But I hope you will not allow this séeing that Nature was héere a foe vnto her selfe in kindling so great a fire in Nero as could not be quenched without such a cursed coniunction This Luste of Nero quite extinguished the glory of Looue and makes the same so odious to the eares of such as reade this tragedy that men rather séeke by reason to brydle such fiery affections then to be found acquainted with such pestilent passions So that Cornelius and Suetonius doo leaue their Learning to be a Lampe or Loadstone vnto our liues that though we séeke to be rather thralle to Looue then by Learning to haue liberty yet theyr counsell is héerein to be ruled by Learning and not to raunge beyonde reason so that Learning is héere vtter enemy to looue Furthermore sithe I am so farre entred I will yet make a farther discourse of the vnnaturall Looue of a Father to his owne Childe that the terror of the tale may giue light as in a Glasse to beholde how vnchaste and inconstant Looue is for the moste parte Ladie Beginne your tale I attend the same with dilligence Scholler WEll Madame then know you
Countreymen whom he had doone so much for Scipio likewise spending all his time in the wars and defence of his Country neuer found any such enemy as Roome which rewarde● him with banishment So that he dyed in a Uillage in the Countrey accusing Roome to be the enemy and author of all his euils Hanniball likewise found Carthage so vnkinde that flying in his olde age to Prusius ●or succour 〈…〉 and so rather then to yeelde to his foes poysoned himselfe These fellowes looued not to pra●● of Table Philosophie nor to make a 〈◊〉 sitting in theyr Ladyes lapp●s For these Loouers neuer went to studie what elloquenc● they should vse to please theyr Loouers but bluntly powred it out that bothe earth and Skies resounded the Eccho df theyr enuie And furthermore when as Dametria vnderstood that her sonne sent in the defence of his Countrey fayled to shew his valliancie according as it was in charge to him committed How aunswered she the Messenger Hath not my sonne quoth she wun fame to his Countrey No certainly quoth he but vtter dishonor by his cowardnes Well quoth shee and what he hath loste among his foes at his returne he shall finde amongst his freends he shall neuer bring confusion to his Countrey nor sorrow to my so●le 〈…〉 rewarde 〈…〉 sonne within a while came home and hauing then proo●●● valiant indéed● came according to the auncient custome of C●nquer●●s Which wh● she sawe she with teares séemed tenderly to welcome him But in the dead time of his sléepe she murthered him And béeing demaunded the cause shée replyed thus Héereby quoth shée I haue fréeed my selfe and ●ountrey from a cowarde and giuen victory to him by death that could not attayne it by life meaning that by his death his Countrey should neuer come to ruine by his cause Héere was a straunge kinde of Looue when the Common wealth was nourished before nature and the libertie thereof pawned by the pryce and corpes of her owne Childe But shee estéemed not his life so much as the Looue she ought to her Countrey yet was she Learned and 〈◊〉 Lawe of nature thought her sonne woorthye to taste such a torment Also Genutius when his enemyes Campe and his were so nigh as that the one would in time of tru●● visit ●he other he commaunded vpon paine of death no man for any cause the Trumpet of truce once sounded should encounter his enemy Not long after it hapened a noble youth comming towards the Campe of Genutius from the other side bothe in signes and woords of reproche challenged Briaro the sonne of Genutius who knowing the daunger yet séeing the hautie heart of his enemie answered Neuer shall it be sayde that a Consulles sonne of Roome will suffer himselfe to bee so scorned and turning himselfe towardes his foe gaue him that which to crakers and praters is moste due in so muche that hée slewe him Whereat the Souldiours reioysyng thinking to haue had praise of 〈◊〉 bewrayeth the whole summe Which when he heard béeing m●●ued therewith that his commaundement was no more regarded Goe quoth he take him whippe him at a ●●ake and after strike of his head Neuer shall the Lawe of the Romaines be broken by Genutius How thinke you Sir hee was Consull and he bothe knew Looue Learning and Lawe yet was Looue preferred héere before bothe Therefore you now cannot otherwise but accoumpte this saying true Amor vinci● omnia For héer generally Loue is still Conqueror and Learning the onely Uassaile and Subiect vnto Looue Scholler You haue waded very farre in searching authorityes but sure Madame you are yet wide of the white your Shaftes are well shotte but they light very short of the Marke and therefore Madame I hold it best you rather giue ouer with indifferencie then to weary your selfe and loose all in the end Ladie Well sayde Sir I am content that I serue you vaine 〈◊〉 to giue you delight by my 〈◊〉 to trye your wit and capacetie and séeing you are so plesauntly disposed haue with you for company but first I pray you make me resolution 〈◊〉 this demaund Who was the wisest that 〈◊〉 was the Learnedst that euer was the Loouingst that euer was the liberallest that euer was and the strongest that euer was Loe this is all therefore commaunde your wittes into your counting house and let me sée how finely you can define of this Demaund it is as good for you as a Doncaster bitte therefore hemme and to it with a courage What faynte you all readie nay soft you must yet sift a little farther turne the backside of your braynes once the backside of your braynes once more ouer 〈◊〉 now man no metuas be not afraide Scholler Tush Madame these your quippes I 〈…〉 delightfull as your disputation 〈◊〉 etting that passe I now apply my selfe to the aunswer of your demaunde The 〈◊〉 that euer was sin●● 〈…〉 was S●llomon for that there was no Riddle nor Allegor 〈…〉 but by his wisdome he made 〈◊〉 ●a●e open But yet for all his wisdome he fell from God and was by Loo●e made thrall to a number of vices But why Madame stande we héere vpon Me thinkes you in●er 〈◊〉 vpon necessitie because you want matter to follow your argument which if you doo I shall not onely 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 a Ladie but reioyse that by my meanes your minde shall bee altered from Looue Ladie Forwarde Sir you haue yet mist the marke and gon some what downe the winde but shoote once more Who was the Learnedst that euer was Scholler If a man may aime 〈…〉 then were the sonnes of 〈◊〉 the learnedst for knowing and 〈◊〉 the secreates and Misteries of the Heauens they found that the world should be destroyed either 〈◊〉 fire or water And therefore to leaue a memorie behinde them of such 〈◊〉 hidden misterie they erected 〈…〉 the one of earthe and the 〈◊〉 of brasse in which they orderly engraued the Science of Astrologie and Astronomis thinking that if the worlde were consumed with fire the 〈◊〉 of Earthe should yet be 〈◊〉 and if with water then the other of Brasse So that I déeme them the Learnedst for that they were the founders of Learning Ladie All this is labour lost well what and who was the loouingst that euer was Scholler The 〈◊〉 that euer was I déee● 〈…〉 our Sauiour Christe whose 〈◊〉 was such towarde vs poore sinners that he disdayned not to leaue Heauen to come and take 〈◊〉 nature héere vpon him on earth 〈◊〉 so of his mercy he might make ●●tis●action for our sinnes whose 〈◊〉 otherwise had béene ●leane 〈◊〉 of saluation So that I affirm● his Looue towards vs neuer was is or shalbe the like Ladie So sir come no more a● that scantling I pray you for you haue hit the Clowte in the middest 〈…〉 againe who was the liberalle●● that euer was Scholler The liberallest that euer was was Esau for he solde bothe his inheritaunce and also the blessing of God to his
brother for a messe of Pottage I neuer knew a more liberall gifte vpon so little gaine And as for the strongest that euer was I confesse that Sampson was he for that he was almoste inuincible if he had not fallen in his faithe Ladie Well and is this your definition are you content to yéelde it vp so Scholler Yea sure Ladie If you doo it is little to your prais● for that except in one point you haue fayled in all Yea and in that too for that all these vertues expressed are resident with one person and you haue prooued them contrarie to be dispersed But what will you say if I prooue them all in one Scholler I saye then Madame that you do● very well Ladie Nay but if I approoue i● true and like case conclude Looue to be Nurse to Learning Will you ●o affirme and cease longer to co●tend thereof Scholler On that condition I will I promise you but if you fayle to doo it how then Ladie Then will I giue chéefe prize and prayse to Learning Scholler Well then Madame beginne at ●our pleasure Ladie The Wisest Learnedst Loouing●●● Liberallest and Strongest that euer was is Iehoua the onely maker and creator of all thinges who by his wisdome made the worlde and in the same hath not onely planted and placed all kinde of creatures but also made man to be the onely Lord of all creatures els liuing So that who may compare with his wisedome or who can comprehend a woorke of such woonder As touching now the Learnedst that euer was I likewise affirme that the Learning and Lesson which he first taught our Father Abraham was so profound 〈◊〉 of so great importance that all the Diuines in the world could neuer define the misterie thereof Thirdly you confesse him to be th● Loouingst that euer was and I mus● néedes allow it For what greater Looue could he showe to man then firste to make him béeing nothing but slime like to his moste glorious and diuine Image Secondly when man had transgressed and was by the Law condemned how Loouingly sent he according to his promise his onely sonne our Sauiour to paye our raunsome and to deliuer vs from deathe and damnation What Looue was euer like to this and yet this Looue was meant to man before the beginning of the worlde And now touching his liberallitie what Prince in the world from the East to the West hath power to doo the like Firste he hath giuen vs the world frankely to liue in and all the creatures therein contayned to be at our com●●ndement he féedes vs he cloathes vs he prouides vs h●rbor he hath giuen generally all the world and all things therein What can be more wished or who euer was so liberall Lastely the strongest that euer was like case he is for at his woorde bothe Heauen and the Earth shall faile the Mountaines fall yea and the Seas ●●ell abooue the toppes of the same So that our God is inuincible and his woorkes not to be wondred at but praysed And therefore Sir now confesse your selfe subdued for Looue héere got the vpper hande of Learning how say you can you denie this haue I not prooued it bothe by Philosophie and also by Diuinitie Scholler 〈…〉 I muste commend 〈…〉 for Looue in déede in this 〈…〉 to L●●rning For that the same Looue hath no ende no● knew no beg●●ning And therefore it must 〈…〉 orriginall of Learning Ladie Well I am glad yet that one so simple as I haue confused 〈◊〉 a Scholler I well may 〈…〉 this victorye But yet for 〈…〉 ●●e that you haue doone vnto me in this our longe 〈◊〉 I will conceale the conquest to my selfe vpon condition that you shall counte your selfe conquered For I would not ingratefully requite you in consideration that the cause of this long conf●rence was onely through my meane and therefore Sir take it in good parte I ●ray you that I séemed so homely with you for I honour the Learned ●nd looue them as my life Scholler 〈◊〉 if ought in me yet 〈◊〉 hath brought liking to your honour I am glad you fo●nde me héere so luckily And as for your conquest of trothe I muste confesse you haue 〈…〉 it and therefore by deserte you may best make boaste thereof But if héereafter when opportunitie shall permitte it be 〈…〉 to vse the like I rest at your ●●mmaunde in any thing I 〈…〉 Ladie Sir 〈…〉 you and for that I sée 〈…〉 ●●●teth I leaue you to your fo●mer exercise in hope héereafter you wyll not inuaye against Looue And thus good Sir fare you well when I haue the like occasion I will not make dainty in 〈◊〉 of your company Scholler Nor I Madame 〈◊〉 straunge in performing your 〈◊〉 〈…〉 FINIS A. M. Heere was wunne wealth by wisdome Philosophie in a woman Theology Genesis Whereof arose th●s Prouerbe Non lice● omnibus adire Corinthum Layes had more Schollers then euer had Socrates Layes was Daughter to one of the préests of Apollo A Philosopher subiect to Follie. Written 〈◊〉 Clearel●●●● A proper example by threé Loouers written by Athineus A singuler curtesie in a Courtezan 11. Ta●ents of Siluer giuen to a H●rlot A large title Cornelius Suetonius A moste horrible acte of Nero bothe against God and the Lawe of nature Herodotus A father compelleth his owne daughter to liue laciuiously A straunge kinde of loouing Porcia consumed her selfe with hotte coales ●ppianus Alex. Titus Liuius Augustino de panchio Death tries the trothe of all men A good hope Titus Liuius One man fought against a whole Armie Curtius who leapte into the gulfe at Roome A sor●● recompēce for true seruice A 〈…〉 A rare example A moste rare constancie in Genutius who to kéepe inuiolate the Romaine law c●used his owne Sonne to be slain●