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A58877 Conversations upon several subjects in two tomes / written in French by Mademoiselle de Scudery ; and done into English, by Mr. Ferrand Spence.; Conversations sur divers sujets. English Scudéry, Madeleine de, 1607-1701.; Spence, Ferrand. 1683 (1683) Wing S2157; ESTC R5948 181,005 434

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be disputed However the most tender Amity replied she never produces any good Effects but what may be expected from mine For is there any one who loves to serve her Friends more or is more glad to see 'em than my self You ought to adde rejoyned I nor who can be more easily comforted for their absence True said she I do not run mad and though I lose sight of 'em I lose not my own Reason But pray pursu'd she what great pleasure would my Friends have though I had the greatest grief in the world for their absence I am without doubt sorry for it but 't is without growing stark mad and without tiring the Friends I had left by an insupportable peevishness which would be of no use to those Friends of mine that are gone but incommode those I am with and distract my self without having any other advantage thereby than the reputation of a tender Heart But my sence is that it would be to have a weak Soul Truly if I did not esteem my Friends as much as they deserved if I did not serve them when they stood in need of my assistance and did not look well upon them when they came to see me I would give them leave to condemn me as they do But because I do not give my Heart entirely up and have it not sensible of the last sensibility and because I do not mingle in all my Discourses the words of Tenderness arden●… Affection and the like I pass for indifferent though truly speaking I am only as a rational person ought to be This is what I cannot endure And is it not true pursued she laughing that those wise men who are so much talked of in the World make Wisdom to consist in a disengagement from all things And according to their Precepts I am by Constitution what they would have people become by their Instructions Those wise men you quote replied Thrasylus never condemn'd Friendship Neither do I condemn it replied she but I regulate it and give it bounds For to think that Friendship ought to distract and destroy its Votaries is too unjust 〈◊〉 thing And I should rather chuse to have Ambition Hatred and Anger than to have Friendship as certain persons have it being assur'd I should suffer l●…ss in having those three violent Passions than if I had that kind of Friendship which I think is called Tender Friendship or Heroick Friendship You ought likewise to wish the having Jealousie said Thrasylus for the heightning the exaggeration If one could have Jealousie without Love replied she laughing I should have ranked it with the others But if you please I will joyn Envy to it which is little less tormenting than Jealousie that you may comprehend how troublesom I take that Tender Friendship to be True it is added she I am perswaded there is much less of it than people imagine and if the Hearts were seen of all those people who make profession of it as I shew mine they would be found little more tender or more sensible And all the difference there is between me and others is that I say nothing but what I think and that I will not pass for what I am not and for what I mean not to be Ah! 〈◊〉 beseech you cried I content your self with excusing your Indifference and do not undertake to condemn Friendship which is the most just the most innocent and the sweetest thing in the World and as you have said the most Heroick For that Friendship which you so much contemn is of such a nature that without it there would be no true satisfaction in the World All other Pleasures are imperfect and do but at most touch the Senses and the Mind But that of Loving and of being Beloved fills and charms the Heart with an infinite delight 'T is without doubt Friendship which sweetens all Griefs redoubles all Pleasures makes that in the greatest Misfortunes we find helps and Consolation And 't is it in short which has caus'd a thousand Heroick Actions to be performed through the whole world And indeed pursued Thrasylus it is in veneration amongst all Nations And bute Cleocrita there is not a person in the world but is offended at an Accusation of having no Friendship Do not make that exception in me replyed she for I take it not well of those who say I do not love my Friends But true it is I care not much People should believe that the friendship I have for them is not of the same stamp with that on which you bestow so many Elogies If you knew what true Friendship is resum'd I you would blush for the shame of having called by so glorious a Name that kind of affection which your Heart is capable of Let it be how it will said she I find my self much at ease and I would not willingly change my Thoughts For my share said Artemidorus who had not yet spoken when I consider that Love and Ambition do occasion almost all misfortunes some moments there are I could wish that there were no passions in the Hearts of men Ah! for Heavens sake cried Amilcar smiling do not make so dangerous a wish If men had no Passions instead of wishing so ardently to live as they do they would wish to die now I know nothing more tiresom than to lead a certain lukewarm and sedate life which without any desires or any fears comes to have nothing more sensible than that we see in Flowers Truly said Artemidorus I am perswaded the Passions onely produce all Pleasure That is so true replied Amilcar that if one of those Seven Wise men of Greece should rise again from the dead I would make him confess that Wisdom it self would be of no use if no Passions were in the Hearts of Mankind and that this is a Treasure they could not be without I say moreover added Aroncius and I maintain that all the Heroick Actions which have been done in the whole extent of Ages would never have been performed had there been no Passions I agree to what you say resumed Artemidorus but you must withal confess that without these same Passions all the great Crimes would not have been committed whereof the Memory is come down to us That I grant rejoyn'd Amilcar but though I grant it I must tell you that as we do not forbear loving Roses though they have Prickles admiring the Sea though it occasions Shipwreck loving the Sun though it incommodes us sometimes by its Heat and the Earth though it equally produces both dangerous and salutary Herbs So I say with all the mischiefs of the Passions I should be heartily sorry they were taken from all men For I am perswaded that whosoever would take 'em all away would take away all Pleasures and almost all the Heroick Virtues as Aruntius has very well observed But still I would willingly know added he addressing his Speech to Zenocrates who did not concern himself in this Dispute Of what opinion are you
Cleorante said Cephisa to her what would become of the love of my own repose No no added she let us not deceive our selves therein our own particular Concerns do always take place of the General Interest and all those Zealots for their Country are often only so for their own good So I declare I should choose a thousand and a thousand times rather that Pisistratus were the Tyrant of Athens than mine I am so far from being so replied he looking upon her after a passionate manner that I am perswaded there is nothing more impossible If you have not a care said then Cephisa smiling and turning towards Cleorante by forbidding Pisistratus to talk of Politicks you will perhaps oblige him to entertain you with love Tho I am not very fond of such entertainments replied Cleorante I think if one talk'd of love to me after a gallant manner and that but little and seldom I should better comply with it than be obliged to hear Affairs of State thrumn'd for a whole day together principally by certain People there are in the World And yet we daily see such Persons whom it does not concern who governs being they have no interest in the State torment ' emselves about it just as if they had as much right to pretend to all as Pisistratus But is there any one interrupted he who has no interest in the Government and the very Slaves can they be happy when their Masters are not so I know not truly said she to him in the most agreeable fret imaginable whether they can be so or not But I know very well there is no great happiness in seeing you when you have got your Politick Humour in your Head If you please said he to her then you shall never hear more of it as long as I live If your forbearance would not be mortal to you replied she smiling I should take it for a very great favour But added he I engage my self only upon this Condition that I shall say of you and my self all I shall think fitting Pisistratus had no sooner said those words than that Cephisa and I pass'd Sentence upon her to accept of Pisistratus his offer However she excused her self for some time very agreeably for after all said she what can he tell me of himself and me If he tells me of my imperfections he will put me out of humour and if he praises me it will be as little to my Diversion for I do not love Praises that are given me in my presence Moreover if he commends himself I shall esteem him the less for it and if he blames himself I shall still think 't is a disguised Pride So as not foreseeing what pleasure I can have in admitting him to talk often of himself and me it must be concluded I am a great Enemy to Politicks if I accept the Proposition he makes me But in short Madam this pleasant Treaty was concluded Pisistratus engaged to speak no more of Affairs of State to Cleorante and Cleorante promis'd likewise to Pisistratus to allow him to say of her and himself all that he thought convenient Yet giving him this liberty only when he should be in one of his Politic Humours Of the Passions which Men have invented AFter the Princess was departed the Company fell a talking of the multitude of Passions which Men have invented And truly said Cel●…nira the Passion of Gaming in proper Terms is not a natural Passion but was invented and produc'd by the Wit and Industry of Men. This Passion replied Alcaeus has nevertheless its Source as well as all others in the Heart of Man and what makes up the Passion of Gaming in particular is the Passion of Pleasure in general which varies according to our divers genius's and several Constitutions All Men have a secret Passion for Diversion which attracts 'em to what does suit with their humour Some love Gaming others Hunting Some the Sciences others the Arts and some all these things together and that secret Passion which inclines to Pleasure serves as much to make a Learned Man love Study as to make a Beautiful Person love Dancing Glory all dazzling as it is is attended and the most difficult Vertues are followed by it Alcaeus is in the right said Philocrita and many People would dispence ' emselves from their duty if they found no pleasure in doing it But do we not see many People said I who shun Pleasure and make as I may say a kind of Passion of that pettish humour which possesses 'em all their lives they condemn the Pleasures of others they cannot agree ' emselves in what they have a mind to they murmur against the Custom of their Country and their Age they complain of the Prince and Government they equally blame Covetousness and Liberality and find no thing but what they judge worthy of their censure Those People said Celanira have certainly no Passion they have only a peevish disposition which makes them judge wrong of all things in the World I should have Curiosity enough said Philocrita to know of all those who are here present which is their strongest Passion I except Love added she for the Men here are Courtiers enough to choose that speaking in the presence of Ladies So that my meaning is every one should say which is the ruling Passion of his heart with exception to that As for mine said Celanira it is constant Friendship My Darling said Philocrita is an innocent joy wheresoever I find it For my share said Alcinor 't is I know not what that's glittering in all I do which makes People every where distinguished and all which is in order for it does sensibly touch my heart That Passion said Iphicrates is hard to be contented Mine is not of so great a lustre for it consists in complying with times things persons and the pleasure of doing it with success But that which you say replied I is Prudence and no Passion I call Passion replied Iphicrates what People love to do most and which regulates almost all our actions For my part said I then my most sensible Passion is the love of Truth But as for Cleander added I 't is unnecessary to ask him which is his greatest Passion What I said perplex'd Cleander and Celanira for a while But Cleander having made me explain my self I told him that his ruling Passion was the love he had for his Prince And indeed said I to him I have not yet been able to distinguish whether you have Ambition because you love your Prince or whether you love your Prince out of Ambition And after having observed you carefully I have concluded you have a kind of Passion without name wherewith you are more taken up and possessed than all those who have one of another sort can do But this Passion replied Cleander is or ought to be in all rational Peoples minds tho much stronger in some than in others through the divers circumstances of their condition and life
If I had known it my self replied he agreeably with a smile I should have spoke it before now But to tell you sincerely I know it not yet my self For as I am sufficiently sensible of Love I would willingly at least retain that Passion But besides as I am naturally very lazy methinks I should not be over-forry though no Passions were in the World because I imagine that if there were none at all Mankind would be continually in a certain languishment of Spirit and a pleasant kind of Laziness that would have something altogether charming Ah! as for Laziness you speak the truth resum'd Amilcar For true it is if there were no Passions all well-bred people would have nothing to do And indeed pursued he if there was no Ambition we see a hundred thousand people come and go through the world who would do nothing of what they do and would onely Enter Rest a while and then Return If a Lover was deprived of the Passion which poffesses him he would become very Idle If Kings were without that Ambition which makes 'em desire to surpass all their Equals they would never be distinguished by themselvs but onely by their rank And the Brave having no passion for Glory would remain content to be jumbled among the Base and Esseminate without having any thing to employ themselves in I also believe that the Fields would not be cultivated neither Cities nor Houses would be built and Mankind would remain scattered up and down the Country without seeking any other Lodging than that of Grotto's which Nature has made And for the greatest part of Ladies if there were no Passions in the World I know not what they would do For as they are the weakest if their Beauty did not produce Love in the Hearts of men and if it did not serve them instead of Force I should rather chuse I fancy to be a pretty Fly than a pretty Woman For they would certainly not onely be Slaves but would also be in a very irksome Idleness since they would not know what to do all the time they spend in decking themselves And truly you need but see a fair Lady in a place where she thinks no body will come to believe that if the Ladies knew they could never give Love they would not take the pains to be half a day doing a thing which must necessarily be undone every Evening I except however from this rule a small number of Ladies as those who are here whos 's Wi and Virtue raise them above all men But to return to the Passions judge ye if it would not be a great pity if there were none since then all the Ladies would be less amiable and would not be beloved But if they were not beloved rejoyn'd Arontius agreeably neither would they be hated since seldom any thing but Love makes them hated by those who are so unjust as to do so For commonly misused Lovers or Jealous Husbands are the onely persons who have an aversion to Ladies True resum'd Amilcar they would not be hated But if they were not beloved they would think the time strangely tedious And there are very few Women I am sure who have Youth and Beauty but would rather chuse to be hated by a hundred unjust Lovers and an hundred Jealous Husbands provided they were beloved than not to be hated by whomsoever it was upon condition of not being beloved by any body and of not loving any thing Let us not complain then of the Passions since they alone afford all the Occupations and Pleasures of Mankind Yet 't is a very difficult thing resumed Artemidorus to overcome them That 's true resumed Amilcar with his usual sweetness but since 't is so difficult do not struggle with them abandon your self to 'em and instead of amusing your self with endeavours to conquer them seek rather to satisfie 'em and then they will not so much torment you For my part added he I am not at all amazed that the Passions tyrannize over the Hearts of men for we do nothing else than preach up this Doctrine that we must struggle with 'em and subject them We find it written in Verse and in Prose The Philosophers have it the Wise men order it Fathers teach it their Children Husbands their Wives and Mothers their Daughters Insomuch as those poor Passions seeing they have so many Enemies make a great effort that they may not sink under them and to reign in all Hearts from which endeavours are used to banish 'em with a world of injustice And truly 't is the place of their birth they cannot subsist elsewhere They give infinite Pleasures to those who seek to satisfie 'em they hardly ever do any mischief but to those who would destroy them For my part resumed Zenocrates they never torment me after that manner For as I am perswaded there would be too much trouble to vanquish them I love rather to submit my self to ' em Thus my Reason and my Passions are never at War together for when my Passions are stronger than my Reason my Reason subjects it self to them And when my Reason is more powerful than my Passions it flatters 'em without undertaking to destroy ' em You so little understand what the great Passions are replied Arontius smiling that it does not belong to you to speak upon this Subject But if you had had any violent or obstinate Love or if your own Desires had made you suffer a thousand punishments and even if hope it self had given you a thousand disquiets you might be allowed to speak of the force of Passion For when we have once tried one of them we may easily imagine the Tyranny of all the rest True it is said then Orontes that who knows all the force of Love may easily comprehend that of Ambition and all the other Passions Yet I am perswaded replied Artemidorus we can never judge equitably of other peoples Passions and we ought never to judge but of our own For though every where they be equally Passions and Love is Love in Greece as well as in Italy 't is however true that it has different operations in the Hearts of all Mankind And the diversity of Temperament does likewise produce many different effects of one and the same Passion For Love in Tarquin's Heart made him commit a thousand Crimes And the same thing in the Heart of Aruntius makes him perform a thousand Heroick Actions Very true resumed Thrasylus but I still maintain that in what Heart soever the Passions reign they give that person trouble enough to satisfie them And I still maintain on the contrary resumed Amilcar that without the Passions we should not be happy If you take away all Passions said Aruntius Indifference must of necessity reign in all Hearts and by consequence there can be no more Heroes I do not speak pursued he of the Indifference which the fair Cleocrita is reproached with because a person may neither have a tender Heart nor Love
had had no other designe than to know if Diodota had Wit enough to reform her ill Conduct And indeed Madam Socrates spent all his Life in inspiring Sentiments of Virtue into all those he sees Insomuch that at the first according to his way he had rallied with that Woman for the taming her But after having well observed that her Wit was not worthy of her Beauty he ridicul'd her deploring the misfortune of that Woman who having wherewith to make her self adored made her self despised by all the Earth I looked upon Melicrita in my turn to see in her Eyes if the virtuous Sentiments of Theramenes did not please her She blushed and would dexterously have turned the Conversation upon another Subject But is it possible said I then that people should call Love the Passionate Sentiments that men have for such a Lady as Diodota who would willingly be beloved by all those that see her without being cruel to any one of her pretended Gallants If it be Love said Alcibiades it is at least a transport of a weak and passionate Heart Truly said Melicrita you give that weakness a very soft name He who can love one of those Women without Virtue is not virtuous himself But Madam resumed Theramenes Do not you know you who love all fine and ingenious things and understand them so well too you I say who esteem Euripides so much do not you know what he has asserted in one of his finest Pieces that there are two sorts of Loves If I did know it replied she I have forgotten it but I do not believe to have seen it I then desired Theramenes to tell us the passage if he remembred it and seeking a moment in his Memory he recited these Verses drawn out of a much larger Work The Sentiments of Euripides upon Honest Love Two sorts of Love in humane Breasts do reign And o're their Minds a different Empire gain Venus the wanton Parent of the one Does from the frothy Ocean bear her Son Who with thick foggy Thoughts our Souls inspires And preys upon us with material Fires Th' other adorn'd all o're with perfect Grace Is of a pure Divine and heavenly race That in the filthy muddy senses has its place By Beauties treacherous Charms it does betray And makes of sensual an Fools an easie prey And Reason our best Guide does still annoy By too much sense it does all sence destroy But with this Love all Virtues do combine And real Modesty does with Prudence joyn This is their fate alike they seem to be Yet the one being mortal they disagree For the other is endu'd with Immortality These Verses are out of Euripides I had not seen those Verses said Melicrita but I believe Euripides has made them to shew that there ought really to be two sorts of Love and that this does not prove there is so Before that your indifference Madam said Alcibiades had taken from me all hopes of being looked upon favourably by you I should have allowed of Euripides his distinction But as I dare not now own any more than Respect and Admiration for your Ladiship I confess sincerely said he rallying to perplex Theramenes that I believe but one kind which varies a little according to the persons we love But at the bottom there are many more Loves which die than Eternal Loves It is not sufficient to say said Theramenes Love varies according to the persons we love For I believe it may be more truly said Love varies according to the person who loves since it is properly the Heart of a Lover which renders Love either inconstant or faithful And indeed when we are born to love well the indifference and cruelty of the Person beloved do not make Love die And on the contrary the Beauty Wit Virtue and even the most tender Correspondence cannot fix a heart naturally unfaithful there must then needs be a frivolous Amour such as Euripides describes it and a virtuous Love such as he represents it to us I assure you resumed Melicrita rising to break off the Conversation that the Loves in Verse and in Prose are very Chimerical Loves and what Love there is in the heart of all men is very light and very frivolous You speak too generally Madam replied Theramenes I am of your opinion resumed I and a general Rule must never be made in any thing This Alcibiades agreed to and Androcles durst not oppose it But at length Melicrita went away without suffering any of the men in my Chamber to lead her to her Chariot refusing them all equally But Madam not to abuse your patience during six Months Theramenes forgot nothing of all that Love can inspire into a very witty man for the obtaining Melicrita's Consent to demand her of Aristocrates her Father She would never allow him to do it nay stretched her c●…uelty much farther For she forbid it him so absolutely that he durst not disobey her And besides he would only owe her to her self He sometimes discovered in spight of Melicrita's endeavours that she did not hate him But he was so much the more unhappy He sought to divert her by Feasts by Musicks and by a hundred ingenious Gallantries He attempted to touch her Heart by passionate Letters by Tears by Sighs by tender and touching words All this was to no purpose Insomuch as lying under these unhappy circumstances he resolved to endeavour the curing himself by absence Socrates having no fancy for Voyages did all he could to divert him from this design and blamed in his presence the excessive Curiosity of great Travellers as well as tha●… of all the Philosophers who had preceded him For all the world knows Socrates values nothing but Morality and believes it a thousand times more necessary than so many uncertain Knowledges which the most part of men make the business of all their Lives Theramenes did not tell Socrates the true cause of his design But he resolved to pursue it and departed without being able to take his leave of Melicrita For she carefully shun'd him for fear he should see in her Eyes the secret of her Heart But he wrote to her and the Letter was delivered her on the morrow after his departure The Letter was as follows I depart Madam that I may not importune you any more with my Passion and though I am perswaded my absence will not be sensible to you I easily perceive yours will be so cruel to me that Death will quickly put a period to my Sufferings Perhaps Madam when you have lost me for ever you will perceive I merited a less rigorous treatment Be not offended if I entertain so light a hope since it is the onely recompence I can pretend to for the most violent and most constant passion that the heart of man was ever capable of Theramenes addressed to me his Letter and desired me by another to deliver it to her for he was very much my Friend And though I had inviolably kept Melicrita's