Selected quad for the lemma: love_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
love_n	believe_v	jesus_n	love_v	2,543	5	6.2190	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A95338	Truths conflict with error. Or, Universall redemption controverted, in three publike disputations. The first between M. John Goodwin, and M. Vavasour Powell, in Coleman-street London. The other two between M. John Goodwin, and M. John Simpson, at Alhallowes the great in Thames-street: in the presence of divers ministers of the City of London, and thousands of others.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Weekes, John.; Powell, Vavasor, 1617-1670.; Simpson, John, 17th cent.	1650 (1650)	Wing T3167B; Thomason E597_2; ESTC R202232	95,080	122

of his Son the salvation of all men M. Powell Your argument depends upon the word World supposing it to be taken in a uniform sense M. Lordell If it please you Sir deny one of the Propositions M. Powell I deny your minor if by the world you mean all Adams posterity M. Goodwin Very well I prove it thus Either by the world here must be meant all Adams posterity or particularly those whom you call in your language the elect of God but by the world are not meant only the Elect of God in your sense and therefore by the world is meant all mankind without exception M. Powell I may deny both your Propositions M. Goodwin Repeat them and then deny them M. Powell repeated the Argument and answered thus First your major proposition the world is taken in Scripture not only for all the world that is every particular man and for all the Elect but severall other wayes But I come to your minor and say that by the world in this place is meant the Elect of God M. Goodwin If by the world is meant the Elect of God only then the sense of the place must run thus So God loved the Elect of God that whosoever of these Elect of God should believe they should not perish but c. Which clearly implies that some of the Elect of God will not believe and so consequently may perish but this is to put a non-sense upon the place and to destroy the savor that is in it and therefore cannot be the sense of it as taken in this argument that which destroyeth the construction of the sentence and the savor which is in it which alone is fit to feed the understanding of a man that cannot be the sense of the place but now to understand the word world in this place of the Elect only it makes the sense altogether unprofitable and senselesse Ergo M. Powell To this Argument I answer that this may be the sense of the word world and the words may as well be read thus So God loved his Elect that he gave c. that such and such may be saved that is that they for whom he gave Jesus Christ might believe and so be saved for the Lord did not onely love them but he intended to bring them to believe and so the extend of his love and of believing they are as large the one as the other God so loved the Elect that he would give them faith and save them M. Goodwin I do not understand your answer but either you mean by the world the Elect only or else more then the Elect or all mankind in generall but say I neither of the former senses can be meant neither the Elect only nor some others besides the Elect but onely the whole posterity of Adam M. Powell I say by the word world in this place is meant the Elect only because the Evangelist saith God so loved the world he puts a so upon it Now you never find that God in Scripture is said to love all the posterity of Adam with such a love which is here called a loving of them so and which is called in Eph. 2. a great love M. Goodwin The Scripture holds forth a twofold love of God First a generall love which is attributed to him in respect of all his creatures and secondly a more particular and speciall love that is to those who have behaved themselves according to his Will and Word by believing in his Son and so by faith and holinesse continue to the end And whereas you conceive that this particle so here in the Text is only augmentative that it only declares the greatnesse of the love of God this I absolutely deny for together with the greatnesse of this love it doth modifie and restrain it and reduce it to this forme and tenor of love it is not said simply so God loved the world that he gave his Son that all the world should be saved then indeed it had been only augmentative but mark the condition which comes in upon which God loved the world and intends to save it viz. that whosoever believeth shall be saved Which shewes that this particle so is not onely intensive and doth not only stand there to declare the greatnesse and transcendency of the love of God to the world but the tenor and the limitation of it how and upon what termes God loved the world viz. that he gave his Son Jesus Christ so and upon such termes only that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life M. Powell You affirm these two things that there is a generall and a speciall love in God and when you speak of the generall you speak of it as extending to all the creatures But secondly when you speak of a speciall love you seem to say that it is not a speciall love which this word so holds out but I say this is a speciall love my reason is this because the Apostle when he speaketh of this very love in the 5. of the Rom. he saith that God commendeth his love towards us that whilst we were yet sinners Christ died for us This Scripture explains the other and this must of necessity be speciall love M. Goodwin If by speciall you mean great and wonderfull and so forth so I grant it is a speciall love but if you meane such a love or affection in God which is exprest or born by him towards those that do actually believe so that place in the Romans doth not hold forth or speak of any such love for the love of God is generall and he commends it exceedingly and marvellously herein but yet it was a love so limited and qualified by God that no persons should partake of the fruit of it but those that should believe And further this condition which God puts upon the partaking of the fruit of his love doth not represent his love the lesse commendable or lesse worthy of him God doth not shew himself lesse loving hereby but onely declares himself herein to be a God as well of wisdome as of love and it is his wisdome that doth moderate and steer all his Attributes in all their issuings and goings forth unto the world Now it had not been a love worthy of God so infinite in wisdome and goodnesse towards those whom ye call the Elect that they should partake of the benefit of this love but in and by and upon their believing M. Powell From this I gather two things First that the speciall love of God is towards men that are believers and that upon conditions of believing And secondly you say that that is the meaning of the Apostle in the Romans M. Goodwin No that I do not but the contrary and that it is the same with that which is here spoken of for it 's said that whilst we were yet sinners God sent his Son to die for us and I say that the intention of God in this love of his

and in the immediate expression of it in the gift of his Son it was that men should not partake of the compleat fruit and benefit of it but upon the terms and condition of believing M. Powell Let us keep to this either the love of God is a speciall or common love if it was a speciall love then it is a love to all or unto some if to all then you must prove it if to some then it must be tied to the Elect of God M. Goodwin I gave you clearly my sense before that there is an ambiguity in the word speciall if by that you mean great wonderfull and admirable so as to affect the heart and to ravish the souls of men so both this and that in the Romans are the speciall love of God but if you mean by it such a love or such expressions of love from God which are peculiar and appropriate only to believers so I say the love of God is not meant neither in this place nor in that M. Powell I conceive that in both these places he meanes a speciall love in the latter sense for the Evangelist and the Apostle do intend this speciall love to the Elect and my reason is this because God in the Scriptures holds forth no speciall love at all but unto such persons M. Goodwin You deny the conclusion for my conclusion is that it holds forth a speciall love M. Caryll That is not at all in the Question whether the love of God be speciall as a great love or a small love but whether speciall be opposed to generall M. Goodwin If by speciall he means such a love which is exprest or born by God towards those who are actuall believers then I say it is not speciall M. Powell When I speak of speciall love I mean not speciall so as belonging to actuall believers onely but unto those who believe as well de futuro as de praesenti M. Goodwin The Scripture doth not take knowledge or hold forth any speciall love in your sense to any but only unto those that are actuall believers As for all others whom you term the elect of God before their faith the Scripture still wraps them up in the same generall term of the world The whole world lieth in wickednesse saith John Now in this word world certainly there were more elect in your sense that did afterwards believer then at the present els all the labour and preaching of the Apostles had been in vain And therefore for the elect who do not actually believe they are no where presented in the Scripture as under part or fellowship of the speciall love of God which is appropriate to believers but they are bound up in the common bundle of the world and they are enemies to God and God an enemy to them in such a sense as to wicked men M. Powell Give me leave to answer unto this You say that if we mean a speciall love that is such a love as God beare unto believers that then there is no such love in God but unto actuall believers Now I deny this and affirm that there is the same love in God towards others that are elect who are not believers as there is to those who actually believe And this I prove from two Scriptures Jer. 31. 31. I have loved thee with an everlasting love and Rom. 9. 11. Jacob have I loved c. and now from hence I will argue thus That love which these two texts hold forth it is a speciall love and it is towards persons that were not actuall believers M. Cranford M. Goodwin's argument formerly was to this effect That the love of God was the motive to the giving of Christ is extended unto the world and therefore the giving of Christ must likewise concern the world M. Powell's Answer was that by the world is meant onely the elect this was took away thus that such a construction of the word would take away the savor and sense of the Scripture Now M. Powell should have given an answer to this and proved that the love of God in that place is meant of a speciall love Now I desire you to have respect to this word world where your Argument chiefly consists and prove that the word world in a narrower sense then the whole world takes away the savor of the words M. Caryll M. Goodwin seems to conclude against any interpretation but onely that of a universall because if it be taken in any narrower you spoile the sense M. Drake Let that be proved that it marrs the sense M. Goodwin I beseech you consider the words God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever c. Now if by the world you will understand the Elect then the sense must run thus God so loved the Elect that whosoever of these Elect should believe should not perish c. For this word whosoever is a distributive word it must distribute some either the Elect or all men therefore the meaning must needs be that God so loved the world that whosoever they be whether Elect or not Elect that shall believe they shall be saved And if you look your best Expositors many of them do interpret the word world as I do universally Musculus and others M. Powell When M. Goodwin urged his Argument I denied the major and minor Proposition that the world was not taken in that sense onely M. Goodwin Why who then doth he mean by whosoever for that must needs relate to the persons of men and if to men then to some men or to all men if you will not understand it so you make an absolute nonsense of it and put a Pronoune without an Adjective Therefore this word whosoever must distribute either the Elect or all men or else some middle sort of men between both M. Drake I desire you to bring an Argument to prove it nonsense if by the world be meant the Elect. M. Goodwin Mind the words again God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him c. That which I am to prove is that to make sense of the place the word whosoever must distribute some men either the Elect or all men or some other number of men between both If you deny that it must be distributive then find a Substantive to the Adjective who doth God meane when he saith whosoever doth he not mean what man soever M. Powell I think whosoever and world are of the same signification and extent and I suppose by the world there is meant those that should believe and not the world taken as it is oft in Scripture for all men I have given my reason why it cannot be understood but in the former sense for the Elect. M. Cranford Answer punctually to M. Goodwins Argument which is that the word whosoever is a distributive word dividing the subject spoken of into two parts and therefore the word world must not be understood

of the Elect except you say whosoever of the Elect believeth shall be saved and whosoever of them believeth not shall perish M. Goodwin If you will precisely urge the sense of the participle which is the present tense then it will be thus whoever doth now at the present believe he shall not perish and consequently ye exclude all other Answer No. M. Goodwin Then do not stick to the precise tense but whosoever doth or shall at any time believe and supposing this to be your sense yet the same absurdity will follow if ye admit any other sense of the word world but only the generality of mankind M. Powell For my part I have spoken what is my judgement and conscience in the thing that the words may be rendered thus without destroying the sense of them God so loved the world c. that whosoever believeth or shall believe Now whosoever that word may have relation to the world that is unto the elect world it may distribute it unto them and not destroy the sense M. Goodw. Do but see now and view it your self whether this be a commodious sense worthy to fasten upon the Holy Ghost to speak at such a rate God so loved the world of the elect that whosoever of the elect should believe should not perish but c. and whether this interpretation doth not clearely suppose that there is a possibility that some of these elect may perish wherefore els doth he interpose that clause that whosoever believeth shall not perish For taking your notion of election there election gives them a perfect and absolute right to salvation insomuch that there needs neither dying on Christs part nor believing on their part to give them a right thereunto If they were elected from eternity what greater or fuller title can there be to any creature or right to such a possession or inheritance as salvation is then the peremptory and absolute designation of God thereunto Salvation is Gods to give to whom he please and if he do it to any persons simply and absolutely as they are his Elect they should be saved whether they believed or no I only add this to shew the nonsense of such a construction of the words M. Powell To make it appear that it is not nonsense I illustrate it thus The Parliament of England suppose they make such a promise to the Army or unto others that whoever takes the Ingagement they shal be protected by their power and so taking of it they come under their protection but now will you say that of necessity it must be supposed here that some will deny to take this ingagement M. Good I go along with your similitude so far that God makes a Proposition as the Parliament to the Army others that is to all the world that whosoever takes the ingagement that is believeth they shal be protected i.e. they shal be saved this now is savory hath substance in it it feeds the understanding of a man But now if the Parliament had such a power over the wills of some particular men as to cause them to take this Ingagement and know certainly that no others would take it then to make such a proposall to them that whosoever will take it they shall be protected this would not be a Proposition worthy of them M. Cranford The point which you are to prove is That there is an absurdity in this sense to say that God so loved the elect that all the elect believing shall be saved the ground which you give of the absurdity is this because according to the judgement of M. Powell the decree of Election is such that there is no need of the death of Christ nor believing to bring them to salvation M. Goodwin That was a thing which I added by the way but to passe that God hath made such a decree that none though elect should be saved but in and through believing he hath linked together Faith and Election M. John Simpson I shall desire M. Powell being now to answer that he would not speak so largely as he doth but only deny M. Goodwins Proposition and put him to prove it for the thing is yet to prove that there is nonsense in that saying and it 's that which I suppose will not be proved these seven years M. Goodwin If I have no sense nor tast of nonsense possibly you may if not I cannot relieve you nor you me as yet and therefore let us read the words again So God loved the world that c. that all believing in him should not perish but c. Now to make the words run thus or to give this sense of them so God loved his Elect that every one of these Elect who shall believe or believing they shall not perish this I say is compleat nonsense neither can you bring any instance out of the Scripture nor from any approved Author that was but in his common senses that did ever build such a piece of construction as this is M. Caryll I doubt not but there will be a very good sense in it to say thus that God so loved the world that is the elect that whosoever believeth or that all believing should not perish but c. it is but the carrying on of the same thing from one act unto another from the act of God unto the act of man the act of God is his love and the giving of Jesus Christ for the redemption of his elect now because those shall never attain the end they shall never reach to that redemption which was intended for them without believing therefore Christ puts in that so that you must carry it on as to the compleaning of the person who shall inherit that estate M. Goodwin Then you deny it to be a distributive particle M. Caryll It is a collective and not a distributive it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Cranford This doth not only shew the love of God but the limitation of his love Now I take it it may be sense in that sense which you gave of it God shewes his love to his elect in appointing them the means of their salvation God modifies that love in bringing them to salvation through believing he so loveth his elect that all they by believing shall be saved M. Goodwin The question is whether such a sense be savory and whether it will stand with the words I say it is evident from the following words that it cannot be the sense M. Powell If it please you you have spoken what you think good in this particular and these have heard what hath been said and therefore let us refer it to them and passe to another Mr. Goodwin There is a great deale more yet to be said to it for either it is a distributive or else it hath no manner of Substantive or person that is implied in it for I would faine know what it signifieth or what you mean by it it 's impossible for me to prove that

is said to intend things because he puts forth himself by means of that infinite perfection of his being after such a manner for the bringing to passe of such and such effects as men do when they intend any thing For example When a man intends any thing this in his course he projects meanes or sets afoot and ingageth himself in such or such a way for the effecting of what he intends which is apt and proper to effect it And in this sense I affirm that God intends the salvation of all because he affords exhibits means proper for the salvation of all by the death of Christ And therefore by the way it will not follow that in case the salvation of all men be not actually effected that therefore God failes and miscarries in his intention and the reason is because what ever is attributed to God which is borrowed from men as wisdom love hatred and a thousand such things they are onely attributed to him by way of effect and not by way of affect or of any formall existence or being in God for there is no such thing as love or hatred or wisdome in him to speak properly but God by means of his pure and simple Essence he is these and all these eminently and transcendently but none of them formally that is in such a propriety of their severall natures as wherein they are found in men and in Angells too they are not in the divine nature upon any such account as they are in men So that when we say God intends the salvation of all men we suppose that God doth that or behaves himself upon such terms and in such a way as men do when they intend any thing Yet not so that God doth all things or every thing that men do under their intentions it is sufficient according to the common notion of all Divines that similitudes are good and serviceable to their end if they hold in any one particular though they fal short and vary in a thousand others As for example If God doth any one thing by means of the death of Christ which men are wont to do ordinarily upon their intentions then I suppose the doctrine is true and will stand good That God did intend the salvation of all And therefore as men when they intend many things they do not alwayes intend them upon the highest and most absolute termes but they may really and truly be said to intend them if they can be obtained by such and such means As for example To purchase a house a man may intend it if he can have it upon reasonable terms and such as become a prudent man to give for it but it doth not follow that therfore he will give out of reason for it or such a price that shall declare him to be a fool or a man inconsiderate in his way And so God intends the salvation of all by the death of Christ so far as to give means unto all which are equitable and agreeable to his wisdome for their salvation not that he doth intend by way of decree for the decrees of God if we take the word strictly they are absolute and unchangeable and he will ingage his mighty power to effect them as the resurrection of the dead and the glorification of all those who shall live and die in the faith of his Son these are so decreed by God that all the interposings of all creatures can never hinder the execution of them But now those things which are properly intended by God they are not intended so to be procured as by the omnipotency of his arme and the exerting and putting forth of his mighty power to the utmost but by such meanes as are agreeable to his wisdome and to that kinde of creature whose salvation is intended by him And this is the cleare sense of my opinion touching the intention of God about the death of Christ M. Powell I shall take hold of nothing in this Discourse but onely this one thing Whether did the Lord intend the salvation of all Adams Posteritie conditionally or absolutely M. Goodwin You desired that I should first propound my opinion and then argue it and now it is propounded you come with another demand quite different from it which is just according to the old saying Plura potest interrogare asinus quàm respondere Aristoteles A fool may ask more questions in an houre then a wise man may answer in seven years M. Cranford M. Goodwin hath answered this already that he did not intend it absolutely but conditionally M. Powell If you please to draw up your whole mind into one Argument for no man is able to answer you in this long discourse M. Goodwin It was not propounded for any such end that you should answer it for I have onely asserted I have not proved any thing But I will answer your Question Whether God intends the salvation of all men absolutely or conditionally This then I say that in a sense and true stating of all the decrees and counsells of God I hold that they are all absolute and independent upon any thing in the creature that is that God should intend the salvation of all men in such a sense as I have declared this purpose and intention of his was not occasioned or brought into him by any interposall or consideration from the creature but it was meerly drawne out of his own will and proceeded from his own grace and blessed intent in this sense all the intentions of God are absolute But now if by absolute you mean that God will fulfill and put in execution the thing intended without any condition so I say they are not absolute but conditionall for God doth not intend the salvation of any man but only by the interposall of his faith and believing Now if you please to let me go on I shall produce my argument and if it doth not reach home to my opinion as I have laid it down take notice of the defect and we will eeke it out M. Powell I onely desire this because it is necessary that you first lay down what you assert and go to prove M. Goodwin That God hath intended the salvation of all men And we shall first begin with that known Scripture Joh. 3. 16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life From hence I argue thus If so be that love out of which God gave his Son was uniform unto the world that is unto all men then God did intend in the death of his Son the salvation of all men and we might add with uniformity of intention but I shall not need But there he Evangelist expresly affirms that God gave his Son out of that love which he bare unto the world that is unto all men and that for this end that upon their believing they might be saved therefore he did intend in the gift

twice two make four so God loved the world that the whole world believing should be saved bring me such an example from Scripture or from any approved Author wherein the subject distributed was necessarily to partake of the benefit assigned to him by such a distribution M. Cranford Prove that it doth distribute M. Goodwin Either it doth distribute or else you must grant that there is no Substantive to the Adjective M. Cranford Was it not a great mercy that the Covenant was altered from a Covenant of Works to a Covenant of Grace M. Goodwin No not in your sense of the Covenant of Grace but the hardest measure that could be to the children of men M. Simpson It concerns you to require of M. Goodwin to prove by a Syllogisme that your interpretation is non-sense otherwise you have done nothing but talked all this while M. Powell I suppose he hath spoken in plain termes as much as he can put into a Syllogisme M. Goodwin Then take it thus if by the world be meant the Elect then there is a possibility that some of the Elect may perish but there is no possibility that any of the Elect should perish and therefore by the word world is not meant the Elect M. Powell I deny your consequence M. Goodwin Either such a consequence must follow that some of the Elect may perish or else this clause that whosoever believes shall not perish is impertinent and beares no manner of weight nor importance in it if there be an absolute necessity that the Elect should believe and be saved then there is a superfluity of this clause whosoever believeth shall not perish If God I say shall be supposed to have so loved the Elect or any certain number of men that he is resolved upon the account of this election of his that none of them shall perish then it will be found a meer impertinency or nonsense to put in such an exception or proviso as this that in case they believe they shall not perish for that I suppose is clearly included in this when he saith whosoever believeth shall be saved he intimates that whosoever doth not believe shall perish and so it followes that some of the Elect may perish M. Powell I deny the consequence of your major Proposition M. Goodwin If no other sense nor import can be found out for these words shall not perish but only upon a supposition that some may perish then your interpretation of the word world for the Elect cannot stand for it makes nonsense of the place because it supposeth that some of the elect may perish but in your sense it is impossible that any of them should perish therefore that cannot be the sense and meaning of the words M. Venning M. Goodwin cannot prove his Argument There is eternall life promised to them that are elected and believing is promised as well as eternall life therefore there is no implication that some of the elect should not believe and so may perish M. Goodwin What is believing here promised as clearly as eternall life upon believing it's cleare beside the truth M. Venning M. Goodwin cannot prove it therefore hold him to it M. Goodwin Observe the words God so loved the world that he gave his onely begotten Sonne that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life Now if there were a necessity that all those that are elected meant by the world here as you say should be saved and that there is no possibility that any of them should perish then this clause should not perish is impertinent and the mind of Christ would be every whit as complete and absolute if those words were left out namely if the sentence were read thus God so loved the elect that whosoever of them should believe should be saved and so that clause should not perish would be a meer absurdity M. Cranford M. Goodwin saith That if by the world be meant the elect then that clause of not perishing should bee in vain the reason is because the whole may as well be comprehended in these words They shall have eternall life M. Powell If it please you M. Goodwin I conceive that such a consequence cannot be deducted from the text that because the Lord addeth Whosoever believeth shall be saved that therefore there is a possibility that some of them may perish Doth not the Apostle when he speaks of assurance urge men to give all diligence to make their calling and election sure doth the exhortation hold forth any such thing that therefore it 's possible for them to fall because he thus exhorts them M. Goodwin I beseech you shew me what import or sense more there is in that clause should not perish then there would be in case it were wholly omitted and left out Or whether in saying God so loved the elect that every of them believing should have eternall life whether I say there be not as much in that clause as there is now this is put in M. Cran. We may consider the redemption wrought by Iesus Christ as complèted in two things in delivering us from the wrath and curse and in intitling of us to that life and grace from which we are fallen so he saith that every believer shall be delivered from wrath and shall have a repossession and right again unto that life and salvation from whence he is fallen M. Goodwin But the Question is whether there be not non-perishing included as well in those words shall have everlasting life as if the other words shall not perish were put in M. Caryll We may look upon it as confirmative that God should expresse it both in the negative and affirmative M. Goodwin If there be a sense wherein we may find more of the wisdome of God it is not for us to strike it out neither is there any reason that we should make God speak Tautologies when there is a fair sense of the words to be found out M. Drak God might but have made this promise that whosoever believes shall not perish and this had been great mercy and infinite love but to add that he shall have everlasting life this is ex abundanti he might have delivered men from hell and not have brought them to heaven M. Goodwin But is it possible for God to preserve a creature from perishing and not to give him everlasting life Not perishing doth include in it preservation in life and being M. Powell Let us not think because the Holy Ghost is pleased to use severall expressions to strengthen our faith in a thing that therefore it is needlesse to be added M. Goodwin I do not say it is needlesse to be added it is you that make it needlesse And for any man to say that the Holy Ghost speaks tautologies when we can find heavenly matter in the words this is contrary to the duty of an interpreter M. Cranf You have spent much time in this thing M. Goodwin saith that if by the world