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A69024 A replie to a relation, of the conference between William Laude and Mr. Fisher the Jesuite. By a witnesse of Jesus Christ Burton, Henry, 1578-1648. 1640 (1640) STC 4154; ESTC S104828 423,261 458

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the strength of your powerfullest perswasive reasons and draw them by your gentlest motives but doe not hale and dragge them with the violence of your Archiepiscopall power and Romish zeale Throw not Godly Ministers out of their Ministry and Means and that by Hundreds with their Wives and Children exposed to all miseries of poverty and all because they will not dare not yeeld to your lawlesse Prelaticall Impositions Innovations Usurpations But if you will needs proceed on in that your violent course against Christ and Christian liberty and peace of mens Consciences assure your selfe you shall not pr●sper you shall not be victor Christ will confound you with all your Power and Pollicie And He shal be both Irenaenus and Victor for his Church both to Conquer his Enemies and to restore Peace to his People And thus much of your example of Irenaeus and Victor L. p. 141. Well thus the whole Militant Church is holy and so we beleeve And if she erre in the Foundation that is in some one or more Fundamentall points of Faith then she may be a Church of Christ still but not Holy but becomes Hereticall And most certaine it is that no Assembly be it never so Generall of such Hereticks is or can be holy P. Doe you beleeve the whole Militant Church to be holy And so doe I. But your whole Militant Church is not the same with that which I beleeve is holy For your whole Militant Church whereof you professe to be a member is in plain terms the Antichristian Church and the Church Malignant which is a persecuter of the true Militant Church of Christ as both hath been and yet will be made more manifest So as your Militant Church is properly so called for no other reason but because it makes Warre against Christ and his Saints Rev. 12.7 and 13.7 and 16.14 and 17.14 but the true Militant Church of Christ is so called because she fights spiritually under Christs banner against Sinne the World the Flesh the Devil and cruell Persecuters whom she overcomes by the blood of the Lambe and by the word of her Testimony not loving her life unto the death So as your Militant Church is a name which you have usurped abused and perverted whereas it is to be named according to its nature The Church Malignant For further proofe hereof you say if she erre in some one or more Fundamentall points c. Which implyes your Militant Church may erre in points Fundamentall Which cannot possibly be understood of the onely true holy Catholicke Militant Church of Iesus Christ. For this whole Militant Church of the Elect cannot either in whole or in part or in the least member of it erre in any Fundamentall point so as thereby to bec●me unholy For this were else to fall from Christ and from ●he Com●munion of Saints by being seduced by Antichrists and false Prophets who shall deceive if it were possible but it is not possible the ver● Elect. This erring in the Foundation belongs and extends to all the Reprobates of the world who are by Antichrist seduced unto their perdition who because they receive not the love of the Truth that they might be saved God shall send them strong Delusions to b●leeve a lye yea to beleeve that for truth which their own ●eared Conscience tells them is a lye For not to receive the love of the truth implyes that they had received the truth unto acknowledgement and conviction but the love of this truth they imbraced not But the whole Militant Church of Christ I say cannot be so seduced unto perdition or to fall from Christ. What is it to fall from Christ To fall from Christ is to fall from that Faith and love of Christ which once they professed that is from the Faith of the Doctrine of Christ and from that love which they professed towards it And this fa●ling from the Faith of Christ is when any one Fundamentall point of faith is denyed and persisted in as we have formerly proved as in the Resurrection and Circumcision and sundry others I might adde here many other Instances as the Deniall of all the Doctrines of Grace in Gods Free Election Redemption c. which Grace and Merit of Christ is peculiar to the Elect onely I will onely adde one more here which I but touched before He that denyes the Lords day to be the Sabbath day of Christians commanded no lesse to Christians in the 4th Commandement then the seventh or last day of the week was to the Iewes he erres in the Foundation becomes unholy and falls away from the Faith of Christ. This I demonstrate thus First The 4 th Commandement is Morall and so eternall and unchangeable And as the eternall sabbatisme is in heaven belonging to the Church Tryumphant so there is a sabbatisme temporall pertaining to the Church Militant in this world This sabbatisme as the other is the rest of God His Rest saith David This Sabbatisme in the Church Militant is by God himselfe appointed to be solemnly observed of the whole Congregation on that seventh day of the week wheron himselfe rested This Sabbath or rest of God was on the seventh or last day of the week upon the finishing of the worke of creation And therfore for that very cause God commanded his People in the Old Testament to sanctifie that Sabbath day weekly This is given as the Reason of its sanctification by the People The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God For in six d●yes he made heaven and earth and rested the seventh Therfore c. Remember to sanctifie the Sabbath day the Lords Sabbath day And note he saith not Remember to sanctifie the seventh or last day of the week but Remember to sanctifie the Sabbath day These words are the Morall substance of the Commandement The rest is an exposition and application of it the exposition to keep holy that Day for Sabbath which is the Lords own Sabbath day wherein himselfe hath rested Note this well for I will speak much here in few words Weigh them therfore number them not The particular application of the seventh or last day of the week as wherein God rested from his works of Creation is commended and commanded to Gods people under the Old Testament So as if there had not come in afterwards a more glorious Sabbath or rest of Gods as from a more glorious worke of a more glorious Creation we Christians also should have kept that seventh day that the Jewes kept But that this more glorious day of a more glorious rest of God from a more glorious worke being come then the same 4 th Commandement commands us Christians to keep this new Day of Rest of the Lord our God So as though the Day be changed yet the Commandement is the same It binds us still to sanctifie the Sabbath of the Lord our God Secondly for the application of the 4 th Commandement to us
whence I conclude upon your own words that Rome holds not beleeves not the whole Creed and consequently she hath lost and overthrown the whole Creed For overthrowing the sense of any one Articl● she overthrows the whole as before And in a word the Church of Rome overthrows the whole Creed in overthrowing the first word of it Credo I beleeve which gives denomination life and beeing to the whole And a maine flaw in the foundation overthrows the whole building And that Rome doth this is cleare for as she hath made a new Creed all of drosse so she hath coyned a new sense to the Credo of the old Creed For she doth not beleeve the Creed with a saving justifying lively faith as is shewed before but hath cancelled and accursed it in her Councel of Trent And so though she hold Credo Deum beleeving that there is a God as even the Heathen doe for quae gens tam barbara c. what nation so barbarous that beleeves not there is a God as the heathen Roman Orator sayd yet she doth not hold any other Creed of God For she holds not simply and absolutely no more then you Credo Deo beleeving God speaking in the Scripture but dependently upon the Authority and Interpretation of the Church And least of all doth she hold Credo in Deum which is the justifying and saving Faith as Augustine Bernard and others of the more Ancients distinguish and define For as Bernard saith Credere in Deum est credendo diligere credendo in eum ire ei uniri c. To beleeve in God is by beleeving to love God by beleeving to goe into him and to be united unto him Now this faith Romes is not for as is shewed before out o● the Councel of Trent their faith is without love and doth not goe into God but with which going to hell they are separate from God for evermore So as the Article or Decree of Trent having destroyed the old Credo in Deum she must have some new Credo or els none at all And you doe ibid. rightly interpret the word V●g●ès which Athanasius expresseth the ●ustif●i●g faith of the Creed by namely sound and intire so as if it be not a sound and intire faith such as the Scripture commends and is proper to all true Beleevers the Elect a 〈…〉 is to no purpose And a little after you say 〈…〉 This is true Divinity that he which hopes for salvation 〈…〉 who le Creed and in the right sense too if he be able to 〈…〉 it P. Till this If hem'd in with a Parenthesis I was halfe in hope you had assented to my former speech That the Church of Rome in not holding the right sense of the Creed overthr●ws the wh●le But your Parenthesis so hedgeth in your silly ignorant that it is a sanctuary to secure their ignorance from R●m●s damnation so as though they have no hope of salvation yet they are in no feare of Romes damnation as being not able to beleeve the whole Creed because not able to comprehend the right sense of it within the narrow circumference of their shallow brainpan But behold closse by another hedge L. p. 343. To hold the Creed inviolate is not as I take it● the holding of the true sense but not to offer violence or a forced se●se and meaning upon the Creed which every man doth not that yet beleeves it not a true sense For not to beleeve the true sense of the Creed is one thing but 't is quite another to force a wrong sense upon it P. Thus still the Lady and all silly ignorant Papists if ever by their blindnesse they shall happen to stumble upon salvation trusting to the meere simplicity of their ignorance living and dying in the Roman faith not knowing what it is nor able to beleeve any one Article of the Creed in a right sense may thank you for thus incouraging them upon this hope of possibility of an impossible salvation And the case stands thus The Church of Rome in her Councel of Trent hath put a forced sense upon the Creed and so hath made a violation of the faith This forced sense Romes Clergie in the Catechisme of Trent forceth and presseth upon their blind people to beleeve Now tell me What difference is there between the forcing of a false sense upon the Creed which the Councel of Trent hath done and all Romes Clergy conveys the false sense if any at all as ●ank poyson into the minds of their Blindlings so farre as they are capable of any errour being capable of nothing els and the voluntary receiving and imbracing of that false sense and that not onely in beleeving it but so obstinately adhereing to it as they will not they dare not as you befo●e confesse beleeve otherwise though the truth be tendered unto him which is the generall condition of all ignorant Papists And being in this case what way now can you find out for them which may bring these misbeleevers or rather no-beleever to salvation What hope can you give them that have no faith And what faith can they have that cannot bel●eve that cannot may not dare not have no meanes to comprehend the r●ght sence of the Creed but the forced sense that Rome puts upon it and them L. p. 349. As for Origen I thinke he was the first founder of Purgatory P. This here of Purgatory bordering so neere your last Passage of your misbeleeving Papists gives me occasion to imagine how necessary it were for you to be the first Inventer of some other place in hell like unto that Limbus Infantum where provision may be made to intertaine your silly Infant-Papists that are not able to give any one reason of that hope of salvation which you force upon them and which you have been the first inventer of That as Popish Infants dying without Baptisme goe to their Limbus where they are sensible neither of joy nor paine so your silly ignorants having no sense of any true faith and knowledge of God or of themselves here when they dye they may goe to such a like place or Limbus where they may neither injoy blisse nor suffer paine But a word of Purgatory in the mean time For the first Founder of it in my poore reading I find the Heathen Plato For he tells us as of 3 sorts of men in this world some very good and some starke nought and some indifferent so he fits 3 places for these 3 sorts after this life 1 Elysium the Elysian fields meaning thereby a place of pleasure as Paradise into which went those immediately who were very good 2. Hell whither the very worst went 3. a middle place or lake into which the moderate or indifferent men were cast after death and after a certaine time there as a yeare or two or more as they were lesse or more good or bad being well purged were cast forth againe Whence they went into the Elysian fields
of your House-hold Gods With Sacred Corn and savory Salt by oddes Yea and every Schoole-boy knowes that Distich of old Cato Si Deus est animus nobis ut carmina dicunt Hic tibi praecipuè sit pura mente colendus If God as Poems say a Spirit be Then with pure mind let him be serv'd of thee And as the Roman Orator also said Non in Ambrosia Deus c. I doe not think saith he that God is delighted with Ambrosia or Nectar or such like sensuall delights in his Service Tuscul. Quaest. lib. 1. Thus you see how those Heathen even by the glimmering light of nature had a better opinion of God then our modern Prelates have or at least then our present Oracle of Canterbury hath shewed himselfe to have for how neere came they to that truth uttered by Christ God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth c. And if you propound the Jewes for example of State in the service of God first God commanded it and the magnificence of it was a Type of Christ and of his Spirituall Temples all glorious within Those Types are all vanished the truth being come And to revive that Service and those Types or to set up an Image of them you doe with the Jewes deny Christ to be come And for this Ierome shall answere you Si placeat aurum placeat et Iudaei If gold please you so well in the service of God let the Jewes also and Judaisme please you And the Poet Dicite Pontifices in Templo quid facit aurum Tell us you Pontificiall Priests what makes gold in the Temple And tell me whether was Adam and Eve more beautifull in Gods eyes and their own too having no other cloathing or ornaments upon them but their naked Innocencie then in their new devised fashion of Fig-leave-Aprons Although they now seemed gay with their borrowed leaves as the Crow with his borrowed feathers And surely this may be a very fit patterne to Sample your Church by For yours and Romes Church having lost their Primitive and Originall beauty of Innocencie Simplicity and Purity of Christs Spouse as the Love of God Saving Faith Soundnesse of Doctrine Sanctity of Conversation and Purity of his Worship which you have by so many of your Superstitions so miserably corrupted think you now to please GOD with a curious painted Service which serves to no other purpose then to please your owne fancie and other mens carnall senses Is not this a GREAT WITNES to the World of your notorious blindnesse and most grosse and palpable ignorance of the very nature of the Godhead who Is a Spirit and therefore will be worshiped in Spirit and truth And they who thus worship him in Spirit and Truth are the true Worshipers as the same Scripture Speakes and GOD seeketh such to worship him as is noted before So as that Inscription which the Apostle found upon that Altar in Athens Agnósto Theo To the unknowne God may it not be written as well upon your whole service which you dedicate to the unknowne God which being patched up like a Fooles gay Coate of so many diverse coloured shreddes wherein your service being dressed up you think it is wondrous pleasing to God doth not all this bewray that you doe all this service to a God whom you know not as whom your fancie frameth to be some carnall Man whose senses are delighted with such service as his Eares with Organs his Eyes with goodly Images curious wrought Copes rich Palls faire guilded Plate his Smell with sweet Incense his Majesty with siting upon your Stately High Altar as upon his Throne and to keep his Residence in your goodly Cathedrall as in his Royall Court May not then that which the Apostle thereupon Preached to the Athenian Philosophers be hereupon applyed to the Romish Rabbies and blind Prelates of Rome and of the Church of England Ye men of the Church of England I perceive that in all things ye are too Superstitious For as I passed by and beheld your Devotions marke your Devotions I found an Altar for blind Devotion cannot be without an Altar with this Inscription To the unknown God whom therefore ye ignorantly worship him declare I unto you God that made the world and all things therein seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth dwelleth not in Temples made with hands neither is worshiped with mens hands as though he needed any thing c. Forasmuch then as we are the Offspring of GOD we ought not to thinke that the Godhead is like unto Gold or Silver or Stone graven by art and mans devise And the times of this Ignorance GOD winked at but now commandeth all men every where to Repent Because he hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in Righteousnesse c. Now what say you to this all you blind Ceremony-Mongers Are you growne so stupid as not to be sensible how this toucheth you as much yea and much more then those Athenians What Are you so blind and senselesse as for all this to dreame that GOD accepts your ga● Puppet-play as a Service of Piety done to him Nay GOD tooke so little delight in those Sacrifices and Rites which himselfe ordained in the Law and much lesse when the people rested in the outward performance and observance of them that he Saith Who required these things at your hands to tread in my Courts c. So also Psal. 50.8 I will not reprove thee for thy Sacrifices to have been continually before me I will take no bullocke out of thy house c. No Who so offereth me thanks and praise honoureth me and to him that ordereth his Conversation aright will I shew the Salvation of God Now consider this ye that forget God least I teare you in pieces and there be none to deliver Yea the consideration hereof brought Christ down from the bosome of his Father to offer up his body as the onely acceptable and All sufficient Sacrifice to put an end to all carnall rites and services If then Gods own Ordinances in the Law did not please him but that he must send his Sonne in the flesh to fullfill all things then what hope can you have that your vaine Superstitious devises should please GOD or that he should otherwise be affected with them but thereby to be provoked to send his Sonne the Second time in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God even all blind worshipers but much more willfully blind such as obey not the Gospel of our Lord Iesus Christ c. Then shall all your Sumptuous Ceremonies and Solemne Service be discovered and the rotten inside of your hypocriticall formalities be turned out to the view of all the world Like to Cardinall Campeius his Sumpter which with a justle in Cheape-side the girts bursting downe it falls and out fly the old Boots and Shooes and