Judg. 2. 19 20. Deut. 29. 25. Ezek. 2. 3. yet if they repent Lev. 26. 42. then I will saith God remember my covenant with Iacob and also my covenant with Isaac and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember and I will remember the land I will not cast them away c. Nor is this a Temporeâ—â—â—rcy onely 〈◊〉 Ezek. 38. 24 25. 1 Kings 11. 32. 8 19. 〈◊〉 Kings 19. 34. 20. 〈◊〉 Psal. 132. 10 Isa. 37 35. Now if the Parent nearest be the adequate cause the mercy is not conveyed by David oâ— for Davids sake as the Scripture saith more than to the wildest Pagan And that 1 â—or 7 14. must be meant of the farther off children as Rom. 11. 16. If the root be holy so are the branches he means the branches to be graffed in again v. 23. the branches beloved for the fathers sake v. 28. far off branches not yet ingraffed again until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in v. 25 26. Mr. H. In the place Exod. â—0 the Lord â—ies not himself to a law but walks in breadth as best beâ—â—omâ— his Wisdom so â—e eximes some from the threatning and withhelds the expression of his love from others Ans. The expressions of the Lords love and mercy is one thing the Lord useth the latitude of soveraignty here and the extending of covenant-mercy to the thousand generations is a far other thing 2. When Mr. H. saith that the Lord withholds the expressions of his love from others in the thousands mentioned if he mean the expressions of his covenant-love as he must what is this from contradicting the words of the Text Calvin whom Mr. H. misciteth saith it s meant of covenant-mercy to be propagated to the thousand generations according to that I will be thy God and the God of thy seed Now neither Scripture nor Calvin ever meant by seed the nearest seed of the nearest parent onely Quod Dâ—… gratia inquit Calvin in famâ—… pâ—orum aeterna resideat Perkins is as clear in this I wonder that Mr. H. was not afraid to cite these worthy servants of God for an opinion so repugnant diametrally to the letter of the Scripture and 10. To the longanimity and patience of God For an earthly Prince making a covenant of grace with a man and his family were it grace and gracious dealing to cut off all his posterity for the fault of onely the nearest parents so as all the rest of the blood-line should be to him as damned Traitors and Rebels And 11. It close everts the liberty of God in his free election of grace for doth not Scripture and Experience teach that the Lord never sent his Gospel to a Nation but he had there among them his chosen ones both of the seed of the Elect and Reprobate Acts 18. 9 10. and therefore the Nation called of God by the Gospel is also the chosen of God and the loved of God according to the most precious part So the Scripture Deut. 7. 7 8. 10. 15. Eph. 1. 1 2 3. 1 Cor. 1. 26 27. Psal. 132. 13 14. 15. 147. 19 20. Now if he should eâ—â—t off men from the covenant for the real defection of the onely nearest parent he must remove the Gospel for the same defection and conclude himself that he should not choose to life the children of some Reprobates contrary to Scripture and it s as great a wonder to me that Mr. H. should claim to Zanchius for this opinion for he expresly refutes it Mr. H. They who imitate the sins of parents may expect plagues they that follow the obedience of faithful parents may expect mercies Ans. It s impertinent for such as follow the sins of parents are none of the thousand generations of them that love God not the latter of them that hate God 2. Though both these be true Mr. H. must prove that mercies promised Exod. 20. are covenant-mercies derived from the nearest parents onely else he saith nothing for his owne cause Mr. H. The mercies here promised are not all the particular blessings and priviledges that the parents were possessed of Israel wanted circumcision fourty years in the wilderness and in the time of the Iudges and in the 70 years captivity they wanted sundry priviledges they enjoyed under David and Solomon the mercy here must be grace and glory Ans. 1. This is for me But when Mr. H. would have Infants of nearest parents excommunicated to be excluded both from Baptism and Covenant-mercy and have them in the case wholly with the Infants of Pagans they must be excluded from grace and glory else Mr. H. must shew with Anabaptists some way of Salvation of Infants who are without the covenant and so have no share in that onely precious Name by which men are saved 2. I hope Mr. H. will not say Israel wanted circumcision in the Wilderness for the sins of their nearest parents onely there was a physical impediment the Lord who loves mercy better than sacrifice would not have Infants wounded in that â—earisome journey Nor was it for their nearest parents Idolatry onely but because they and their fathers from Egypt until that day Ezek. 2. 3. rebelled they were deprived of this other priviledge 3. Mr. H. must prove that the people in the Wilderness in the time of the Judges a stiff-necked generation who did worse than their fathers despised mocked and killed the Prophets were all of them visible converts a generation of lovers of God and such as kept his commandments Mr. H. This being the meaning as Calvin Zanchius Junius Perkins what inference can be made for the conveyance of the right of Baptism from remote parents to children I know not for how doth this agree to children to love the Lord and keep his commandments who are not yet capable being not come to years to put forth such acts Ans. I shall not invite Anabaptists to triumph in pulling this Argument for Infant-baptism from our Divines for if the words must be expounded of actual love to God and actual obedience in Infants so that if Infants be not capable of actual love and obedience to God the covenant-mercy must be broken off in all Infants who die before they can come to years to actually to love the Lord and keep his commandments And if the flux of covenant-mercy be suspended while Infants come to be capable to actually love God and obey him where then shall be covenant right in the males of the Jews to be circumcised and in the Infants born of covenanted parents under the New Testament to be baptized For the Argument if any be must be thus To such as cannot actually love God and keep his commandments for want of age there be no covenant-right to Baptism conveyed But this want of age and capacity to love God and actually obey him is in all Infants in Old or New Testament except Mr. H. mean that nearest parents can supply the want of capacity
and infuse actual understanding to Infants that they may actually love God and keep his commandments which remote parents cannot do which is a mystery I am yet to learn But to the Reader it is clear that Infants have no right to Baptism until they come to years to actually love God Ergo they should not be baptized until they be converted But again no Anabaptist teacheth that any are to be baptized by covenant-right from parents near or remote except they personally believe and profess actually and the very like Mr. H. saith Mr. H. Where shall we stand if a thousand generations have interest in Baptism Then the children of Turks cannot be excluded for some of them are found between us and Adam Ans. Is not this to cavil at the Lords words not at us so they set this Conjecture down as a part of their Discipline It s not above 66 generations from Noah to Christ and if Gods mercy to a thousand generations may fetch in the children of excommunicated persons the same promise may fetch in all Turks and Infidels at this day But I pray you are Turks such as love God and keep his commandments are not Turks avowed enemies to Christ and the Gospel-covenant and so for many generations have deserted the covenant and visible Church so that they are no visible Church the Lord having removed the Candlestick Can this be said of children born in the visible Church either of the Jews or of Christians professors because their nearest parents are extreme wicked or excommunicated since they are yet born in the visible Church where the Candlestick is shall the children be cut off from circumcision since the Lord for Abraham for Davids sake for the holy Roots sake not the nearest who were most unholy and cast out Rom. 11. 7. gives circumcision and Church-room to the branches Rom. 11. 16 And if the child of nearest parents excommunicated be born in a believers house or resigned to a believer to be brought up as his own he is to be baptized say our Brethren but the being so born hinders not the childs cutting off from the covenant Where then is his covenant-right to baptism It s either from his remote parents which we say I will be thy God and the God of thy seed or from his nearest excommunicate parents This latter Mr. H. denies or from the Beleever in whose house he was born If so we shall not contend then the covenant-right is not broken and removed because the nearest parents are excommunicate Some parental covenant-right is conveyed to this Infant which is not conveyable to the Infant of a Turk 2. Mr. H. hath the words of the second Command for his party for iâ— the nearest parents excommunication deprive the children of all covenant-mercy and right to the seals the words should be false and the Lord should be less in shewing mercy in extending it to one generation only to the nearest children only for their nearest parents loving of God and keeping of his Commandments and more abundant in severity of justice in visiting the sins of the Fathers upon the Children unto the third and fourth Generation of them that hate him But this turns the promise and the threatning of the Command upside down for mercy is so extended to Fathers nearest nearest Children and punishing justice to four and the command extends mercy unto thousands justice to only four Generations Now two Generations as they are fewer then four so are they far more fewer then a thousand Generations as also if mercy extended to a thousand Generations only be upon condition they imitate their godly parents saith Mr. H. by loving actually and obeying actually his Commandments especially that of the truth of his worship then is mercy not extended to the nearest one generation of Infants for it is certain the nearest one generation of Infants cannot be yet capable saith Mr. H. with the same breath being not come to years to put forth such acts of actual love and obedience in worshipping the true God as he hath commanded in his word and if mercy be not extended to one generation nor Covenant-seals to Ishmael for Abrahams nor to Esau for Isaacs sake contrary to all Scripture the Lord shews not mercy to thousands of generations because not to one generation And so again the promise of mercy is destroyed for the condition of actual love and of actual obedience is physically impossible to all sorts of Infants both of Parents loving or hating God And 3. the sweet and merciful proportion is destroyed for God punisheth Infants Children of Achab of the Amâ—lakites of Ieroboam in the cradle though these Infants be as uncapable to bow the knee to Idol gods or to imitate the Idolatry and actual abominations of their Fathers as the Infants of godly parents are to imitate the actual love and obedience of their parents and yet the Scripture and experience teach that justice proceedeth to four generations against the one And Mr. H. denies that mercy goes along to the thousand generations with the other because poor Infants on the breast cannot bow their knee and pray in faith to God and do the like acts of true worship as their godly parents do and yet Mr. H. fathers his meaning upon Calvin Zanchius Iunius Perkins Mr. H. The next parents being excommunicate cannot give to the child the right which they have not themselves Ans. I grant because they are not the sole and adequate cause of conveying covenant-right to the children But where then saith Mr. H. shall we stand how shall it be conveyed to remote parents The answer is easie so long as the nearest children of excommunicate parents are born in the visible house where the King yet dwells and the golden candlestick is not removed the children are heirs to the remote parents the children are followed with covenant-mercy passing by the nearest parents saith the Lord for my servant Davids sake 1 King 11. 32 34 36. he would not destroy Iudah for his servant Davids sake 2 King 8. 19 2 King 19. 34. 2 King 20 6. for the promise is not laid down in the hand of the nearest parents only but in their hands with whom first God signally covenants as with Abraham David with the three thousand baptized Act. 2. 39. and their children and all that are afar off and as many as the Lord shall call with the seed with Samaria and theirs Act. 8. so long as a calling Gospel is there This shall not fetch in the Turks How will Mr H. with so short a good night of Christ break off the longanimity of God to the seed for their nearest parents if they break a new congregational covenant Yea if by persecution and through no sin of the nearest parents they be broken out of congregation-state presently the Candlestick is removed from the seed and a bill of Divorce sent to the whole race and they banished out of the house and declared
A SURVEY OF THE SURVEY of that SUMME OF Church-Discipline Penned by Mr. Thomas Hooker Late Pastor of the Church at HARTFORD upon Connecticot in New England WHEREIN The Way of the Churches of N. England is now re-examined Arguments in favour thereof winnowed The Principles of that Way discussed and the Reasons of most seeming strength and nerves removed By SAMUEL RUTHERFURD Professor of Divinity in the University of S. Andrews in Scotland Revel 21. 9. And there came unto me one of the seven Angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues and talked with me saying Come hither I will shâ—w thee the Bride the Lambs wife V. 10. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and shewed me that great City the holy Ierusalem descending out of heaven from God Ezek. 48. 35. And it was round about eighteen thousand measures and the name of the City from that day shall be The LORD is there LONDON Printed by I. G. for Andr. Crook at the Green Dragon in S t Pauls Church-yard M. DC LV III. Christian READER IT were good there were more believing and less disputing in the world and that all especially the Ambassadors of the Prince of Peace would listen to that 1 Tim. 4. 4. not to give heed to fables and endless genealogies which minister questions rather then godly edifying which is in faith as also to consider that the holy Ghost states an opposition betwixt questions of perverse disputers and godliness 1 Tim. 6. 4 5. In this Piece which the violence of requests in some the importunity of chiding in others and the less modest triumphing in not a few hath extorted rather than willingly brought forth the question of the preference of humble believing above all factious disputing even though the subject were the form the going out and the coming of the house of the Lord is with me and which is of infinite more weight with the truly godly soon determined for Blessed is the servant whom the Master when he cometh shall finde watching praying believing not tossing and raising the dust of debating and multiplied Replies and Duplies since the peace and joy of believing that we may abound in hope through the power of the holy Ghost is of great price with those in whom the meekness and gentleness of Christ hath place For it were desireable not to be in bondage to either Engine or Pen and it would appear that there is less of Christ and more of Self in our sickness of over-loving these truths which suffer most bruising and grinding might I be licensed so to speak between the Milstones of Sides Opinions and Contradictions of Parties as if that were the choicest verity which the mans own engine hath taken out of an Adversaries hand in a manner with his bowe and his sword But O how more precious were it if the holy Ghost had perswaded the man of the sweetness of it from the fountain of holy Scripture for it is beyond doubting that syllogisms and haply thirty two or fourty Arguments have not such leading and captivating influences upon the heart as the convincing light of the Spirit acting upon the supernatural instinct of the new birth to bring the thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ. For when the head is filled with topicks and none of the flamings of Christs love in the heart how dry are all disputes for too often servouâ—of dispute in the head weakens love in the heart And what can our Paper-industry adde to the spotless truth of our Lord Iesus O that Opinions were down and the Gospel up and Sides and Parties might fall and Christ stand and that all Names Sects and Ways were low and the Lord alone exalted and that we could both dispute for Iehovah and in the same act worship Iehovah There is too much fire stricken out of the letter in our debates it were good that the Spirit with fire from heaven did animate and inliven the letter and word of our Polemicks it were good that the Ministers of the Gospel in the Isle of Britain were well studied and read in that celebrious and noble Text Iesus Christ and him crucified that we might contend for his high interests and had the Key of David to open Christ to commend him in all his loveliness and people would come and see and wonder then should we know how choiser it were to act in our selves the love of Christ being warmed and inflamed therewith than to write the letters of his love in ink and paper and to declaim of it to others Neither is this spoken to deny but many precious and savoury truths as Christ himself have endured contradiction of sinners but the witnesses both sealed these truths with their blood and were in their debatings shined upon by the out-lettings and emanations of the Spirit of Christ. It were safer to lie in the dust and be humbled before the Lord for the breach of Covenant the vast toleration of false Religions our vanity of apparel when we busk and adorn our selves in filks even in our state of captivity for intemperance execrable swearing lying mocking and persecuting of godliness lothing and hating the godly covetousness the barrenness of our profession and which is the root of all Atheism gross ignorance of God and of Jesus Christ the abounding of many other iniquities as if we would make it appear that three Englands are scarce sufficient to humble one Scotland Which is not spoken to justifie the Author or a party from deep accession to these sins or to clear and acquit the members of our Church from the charge put on them by Mr. Hooker It s true we judge it not warrantable to say that the servants are to call and invite none to the marriage-banquet but such as they look on as regenerate and clothed with the wedding-garment nor to teach that the Lord of Hosts shall make a feast of fat things a seast of wine on the lees of fat things full of marrow unto and for a visible society of which Magus the Sorcerer Iudas the Traitor are priviledged members and that the Lord in them shall destroy the covering cast over all people and the vail that is spread over all nations and that in the members of that Church-frame of which we now dispute it s verified which the Prophet saith Isa. 30. 26. Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenâ—old as the â—â—ght of seven days as Mr. H. cited for without the salvo and â—enitive of a figure the part for the whole his Congregational visible Church can never stand under the weight of such glorious Prophesies as are fulfilled in the onely really gracious and chosen of God visible or invisible Yet should the desire of our soul be that there be upon the bells of the horses Holiness unto the Lord and the pots in the Lords house may be
the Elect pag. 39 40. and such rotten ones as Magus and Iudas 2. How a false and a true right can come from the same command of God let Mr. H. judge Lastly it is poor to say How come hypocritical Professors to have right to the Seals As visible Members they have none as invisible Members they have none for such they are not Ans. True they are not but Mr. H. gives them the same right with invisible Members quo jure let him shew Ergo the Church must give them no Seals or give them Seals when she cannot know they have any right for indeed they have none that is true and real Ans. The Church doth obey Christ in giving them Seals and it well follows Ergo The Church giveth them Seals when she cannot know they have any right to wit internal and real which is a saving priviledge of special note in the Mediator to the Seals including signes and the grace signified for so onely they do belong in the Lords intention and eternal decree to real believers not to Magus and Iudas except Mr. H. will stand for Arminian Universal Grace and say that God intends the same saving grace in Ordinances and Seals to Peter and Iohn and likewise to Pharaoh and Magus CHAP. XVII Whether the visible Church as visible can bear these styles of the Body of Christ of the Redeemed of God the Spouse of Christ c. Mr. H. saith These things may well be given to the visible Church Those over whom Officers are set to feed them by Doctrine and Discipline must needs be the visible Church But these are the Church Act. 20. 28. Feed the flock not of the Elect onely but of the whole visible Church Take heed to the whole flock of God else if they were set over the Elect onely they might reply Lord we cannot search into thy secrets who are the Elect and invisible Saints onely to feed them where as the current and common sense of the Scripture is taking Redeemed and Sanctified as visible though not really such the stream of the Text runs pleasantly Feed all visibly redeemed Elect and Reprobate So they be redeemed in the judgement of Charity Ans. 1. The Church visible is taken two wayes 1. In the latitude as comprehending all Professors sound as Peter or rotten as Magus all which have a sort of right to the Seals but divers wayes as is said 2. More restricted as a Church so and so visible as the soundest part of real believers comprehending in Corinth onely such as are really justified sanctified c. In the latter â—ense the Church visible and professing is one in the matter all one with the Church invisible and soundly and sincerely professing and Peter is both a real believer and visible and soundly professing believer In the former sense Paul writing to Corinth to Ephesus 1 Cor 1. Eph. 1. 1. Rom. 1. 7. to the Romans calleth all the Church visible there justified or not justified the Church to wit the Church visible In the latter sense onely the so and so visible professors sanctified justified are the onely really soundly professing visible Church and the whole is named from the sounder part In the latter sense Christ is head and Husband of the visible Church consisting of onely real sound visible Professors and that not onely by the influence of politick guidance but also by the influence of saving grace But of this visible Church Mr. H. moves not the question and therefore his Arguments speed the worse 2. The Argument of the same strain is formed by the Arminians so As many as are the really redeemed Church say the Arminians and As many as are the Church of God redeemed in the judgement of Charity saith Mr. H. the Elders were to feed But the Elders were to feed the whole flock Elect and Reprobate real believers and hypocrites But the Proposition is denied and how either the Arminians or Mr. H. prove the Proposition we see not For Redemption to be bought with the blood of God yea to be chosen to life before the foundation of the world which are proper to the invisible Church onely are attributed to the visible Church of Ephesus Eph. 1. 4. Was it Pauls minde that thanks should be given to God because God hath chosen us all and every one of the visible Church here is Universal Predestination of Ephesus before the foundation of the world to be really holy for of that holiness he speaks because from eternity God had in the judgement of charity chosen to life and holiness such as Magus and Iudas and the grievous Wolves in that Church So must Paul say 2 Thess. 2. 13. We are bound to give thanks to God for you all whom we feed all to whom we write real converts or hypocrites that God hath in the judgement of charity chosen you all salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and bilief in the truth 2. The Proposition is false That as many as in the judgement of charity were bought with the blood of God as were to be fed with Doctrine and Discipline and so with Excommunication Then were they to esteem all the grievous Wolves that spared not the flock but preached perverse things Acts 20. 28 29. and all that had in such a manner fallen from their first love and first works yea all the Apostates in the judgement of charity to be bought with the blood of God and eternally chosen to life and saved for the Officers were to feed all these with Exhortations Threatnings Censures Now the latter is unsound But 3. They were all recommended to the care of Pastors as dear bought True but not as if all were dear bought the Text saith not that Mr. H. no doubt sinned with the Arminians in adding that to the Text for a father departing may recommend his family of children and servants to a Steward because saith the father they are dear to me it will not follow that they are all dear to him as children 4. Feed the Redeemed flock not as known to you to be Redeemed or Predestinated to life but as professors among whom are my ransomed ones 5. The Text runs in its stream most muddily not pleasantly if the world and the whole world Ioh. 1. 29. 3. 16. 1 Ioh. 2. 1 2. and the All that Christ died for be the Church of converts in charities judgement behold Mr. H. turns the world all the world all the world for whom Christ died before they were born and had being into visible Saints and when the Lord saith Ephraim is his dear son Jer. 31. and Israel a holy priesthood a chosen generation the currant and pleasant sense must be All and every one in the ten Tribes and all Israel are the Lords dear children and Priests sanctified to offer themselves an holy living sacrifice to God in the judgement each one of another though there be to their knowledge many thousand visible Idolaters Murtherers
congregation Yea I adde A member of the visible Church whereas he was no better then a heathen before and the Churches of New England say with me Though Mr. H. say That never one of them said any such thing And sure this is one Church-covenant by which persons are made fixed members of a congregation Ergo they are by this covenant made members of the visible Church whereas they were as pagans before But there is another Church-covenant by which pastor and people are married and every member so married as they cannot act as Church-members without their own congregation and he cannot act as a pastor toward any but toward his own flock Hence a new Quaere Whether there be two different Church-covenants 3. It s without question that the family of Abraham was Gods covenanted people before circumcision was instituted Gen. 17. nor is there any ground for a formal Church-covenanting among themselves And it speaks against all Scripture to say there was a Church covenant in Egypt and in the Wilderness Exod. 19. 1 5. for they were not made Church-members for members they were before by these covenantings with God And this is Mr. H. his own consequence They are members before they chose their Pastors Ergo. So I retort Mr. H. If this covenant difference the visible Church from the invisible as the formal cause then there have been no visible Churches since the Apostles times till now Now the Churches saith Mr. H. in England Holland c. have the implicit covenant at their practice evidenceth Ans. Yet it must fâ—…ow since presbyterian Churches believe and practice juridical power without the bonds of a single Independent Church in divers associate Congregations 2. And do not contend for but are against really supposed Saints as only constituent members of the visible Church and in the causes internal and external And 3. are so contradictorious to Independency there have been no Church according to the rule of the word since the Apostles dayes 2. If an implicit covenant suffice we shall find popish Churches to have much of that Mr. H. Though many unwarrantable wayet convey this covenant yet it self may be warrantable Ans. If by ways Mr. R. mean as he doth wayes inseparable causes pillars means and undeniable consequences the covenant must be the more unhappy as the unlawful wayes of the Mass the lifting up of the bready God and Idolatrous Ceremonies inseparably conveying it render it unlucky Mr. H. It is a dream to say that when the Apostles came to plant Churches that private men not the Apostles converted them Where is the man of ours that will affirm that all All are converted by private Christians Ans. The reply auswers not a whit to the Charge of Mr. R. now when the Apostles are not 2. The Apostles by our Brethrens way are not Pastors so much as extraordinary nor publick men for extraordinariness destroys not the nature of Pastors and to our Brethren Pastor and flock are relatives but the heathen are no fed stock nor these who now teach the Gospel to the heathen Apostles nor Pastors 3. These who teach that now Apostles ceasing Pastors as Pastors convert none according to the revealed command of Christ but pre suppose all are converted before they be admitted members they convert not as Pastors Ergo they must convert them as no Pastors Ergo they convert them as private men except there be a middle preacher between a preaching officer and a private man but this every where is taught by our brethren now this middle uncalled man must be the ordinary converser of all 2. Mr. H. teacheth that the Church homogeneal in ordinary now when there are no Apostles is before Baptism and Ministry now this Church is all the visible sovieties of confederate converts on earth Let Mr. H. tell us who converted them not Pastors for they are a framed Church in esse and operari the Fathers and sole Creators of all Officers Mr. H. It is unwarrantable to say Pastors now convert not Indians and Heathens saith Mr R. It is warrantable enough saith M. H. Answ. Enough is a feast Converters of Heathen now are either Apostles Evangelists or Ordinary Officers and Pastors or of some middle new Officers this latter cannot without Scripture be said not the former for they want the gift of tongues and miracles nor are they ordinary Pastors For Pastor and flock saith Mr. H. Shepherd called and Church chusing Husband and Wife are Relatives But Indians are no chusing Church Mr. H. Men must be satisfied in conscience of the conversion one of another saith Mr. R. Ans. To reasonable charity they should saith Mr. H. and no doubt it was in Ananias Saphira Ans. But their long conversing together for this satisfaction Mr. H. bringeth down to two poor experienced Witnesses Magus and Iudas for every one must witness of another and that witnesses were called and judicially deponed that all the 3000. Act. 2. and all Iudea and all round about who were baptized Matth. 3. 3 4. Mark 1. 5. Luk. 4. 21. were real converts who can believe except you believe for so saith Mr. H. Mr. H. What is all this to overthrow the covenant Ans. Very much for it destroyes the Ministry for though some private Christians may convert some yet no man can shew me by our brethrens way that pastors now do convert any at all contrary to Mat. 28. 19 20 Rom. 10. 14 15. Eph. 4. 11 12 13. 1 Cor. 3. 5. 2 Cor. 5. 20. Act. 26. 16 17 18. or if they convert any they do it not as pastors M. H. They which have no Church-power can put forth no Church power but such as Churches to other Churches Ans. The proposition is weak they put forth an act of love of counsel of approbation of conjunction as well as power Mr. R. grants one single Congregation to have no power over another many Churches sent to Parliament to declare their judgement may approve of their determinations if holy if not may confute them yet they have no Church-power over the Parliament Ans. 1. My argument is mistaken many Churches suppose mine have not power by this way to receive in one Church nor Iames Cephas and Iohn power to receive authoritatively Paul as they do say Calvin Pelicanus Pareus Piscator Diodati Beza yea Ierom also before them Mr. H. If Mr. R. constâ—ue a token of consent consensionis to be a Symbole of authority it is beyond my understanding Ans. Mr. R. never understands private consent or private counsel such as one private man or woman may give to another private person of their own or of another congregation to be publick authority but I acknowledge a publick authoritative and Aopstolick consent to be in Iames Cephas Iohn and their meaning was Brother Paul our counsel as Brethren is and our consent you be a Preacher but we have no Apostolick authority from the Lord to own you as an Apostle
Now that is the true meaning of Mr. H. for this of Mr. R. must bide yet strong these that have no Church-power can put forth no Church-act Such as one Church may put forth toward another single Sister-Church as Mr. R. often granteth as one single man cannot excommunicate another yet one single man being a Pastor in a Church Judicature joined with the Church binding and loosing such as is Mat. 18. may give consent not private by way of counsel but publick by way of authoritative influence as a partial and collateral cause that Paul Gal. 2. be authoritatively adopted into the number of the Apostles that they be excommunicate who say they are Apostles but are not and do lye Rev. 2. and a married wife hath no marriage-power over any man but over her own husband nor is it to be heard which Mr. H. saith I but she may put forth an act of love and counsell to all men But I ask may she put forth a certain act of matrimonial love or perform a certain matrimonial duty to all men on earth this would be too near unchast acting So let Mr. H. answer whether these three Iames Cephas and Iohn gave Apostolick publick consent that Paul should be received an Apostle or only a private counsel If the former be said why contend we if the latter what more had Paul from the given right hand of these Apostles then he had before he was no more to them an Apostle then before yea more to three private Believers in Galatia contrary to the scope of Gal. 2. These Churches sent to the Parliament that way not representing the National Church and Kingdom covenanted with the Lord can give no Church-determination more then so many single Pastors yet it is an official judgement not a private judgement Mr. H. It is not warrantable that one not in office saith Mr. R. but a private Christian should pray exhort preside in the framing of a Church and in ordaining of Pastors Ans. The practice of the Church of Scotland will say to this we allow not publick prophesying of unofficed men Ans. 1. Here is ordinary prophecying such as that of the Apostle Peter at the calling of Matthias Act. 1. and publick Church-prophesying and praying such as is by the Prophets or presbytery of the Church of Antioch Act. 13. when Paul Barnabas were called to be Apostles to the Gentiles and since officers are but adjuncts of the Church to Mr. H. and separable accidents by no institution of Christ have pastors hand in ordaining pastors but the setled way till Christs second coming is that the male-Church kindly per se make and unmake all the officers which cannot be done but by Church prophesying of unofficed men 2. Expectants being pastors in fieri sons of the prophets by command of the prophets vi materiae for trial must prophesie that you cannot warrantably say from Scripture of your prophets LIB II. CHAP. I. Whether or not a company of Believers destitute as yet of Officers and combined together by this new Covenant be truely called and be in truth and indeed a Church MR Hooker moves the question whether such a company be a Church indeed by which he insinuates that it is a certain kind of a visible Church but not the only visible Church instituted by Christ in the New Testament Therefore Mr. H. stands obliged either to form the question in other terms or to shew which is the only instituted visible Church in the New Testament for the Discipline-book of N. E. saith that Church which Christ in his Gospel hath instituted to which he hath committed the Keyes the Officers Censures is coetus fidelium a combination of the godly called a particular visible Church And Mr. H. comes to our hand and so with a trumpet giving an uncertain sound he tells he speaks of the Congregational Church as it goes before Officers which is a Man in the Moon and proved by no Scripture at all Mr. H. The trumpet here gives an incertain sound M. R. expressions are so full of variety Ans. It is a groundless charge except you bring expressions of Mr. R. ambiguities which is not legible to the Reader I blow the trumpet alwayes against such a visible Church as Mr. H. forgeth by arguments from the word which are not answered Mr. H. A Church ministerial is taken two wayes 1. Generally as implying any delegate power in the exercise of any Church-acts under Christ. So a company of visible Saints hath power of admission of members and election of officers and in case they prove heretical to reject the officer and make him no officer All these are granted by Mr. R. Ministerial power is taken strictly as it includes an office power so it is not ministerial Ans. Mr. H. dictates but neither teaches nor brings one word of Scripture to prove a distinction that hath neither head nor feet 2. The members of the distinction are coincident for to ordain officers and excommunicate them is governing strictly and most properly as is in the second member And yet in the first member to excommunicate makes a ministerial Church largely so called The distinction is a begging of the question and destroyes it self for it is to ask whether visible Saints wanting such as are the only Governours and Rulers who are called in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Cor. 12. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 Tim. 5. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 13. 17. Rulers be a ruling and a governing Church for a Society that doth ordain Elders and which censures them if heretical with excommunication must be a Ruling and so a Ministerial Church if there be any Ruling and Ecclesiastick Church on Earth If any say that a Society that appoints Stewards and Officers over the house and excommunicateth them is not a politick governing Society they may deny that the man which maketh use of reason is a reasonable creature And to frame a distinction and say a man is a reasonable creature in that sense is poor Logick We can give instances where the Presbytery ordains and layes on hands 1 Cor. 4. 14. and where Titus and other Elders are to ordain Elders in every City Tit. 1. 5. and Timothy and in him others are charged to lay on hands and ordain no man suddenly while he be proved to be a fit Officer 1 Tim. 5. 22. 1 Tim. 3. 10. and where Timothy and others with him are commanded 2 Tim. 2. 2. to commit the ministry to faithful men who are able to teach others Would Mr. H. shew so much for the power of Rule in a company of Believers void of Officers or give us a shadow of reason in the word from precepts practices promises for this new Church that ordains and excommunicates without Officers they should have something to say to this who upon good groun◠say they coyn a new Church of their own unknown to word Mr. H. indeed elswhere saith
onerousness of answering to God for duties the like conscience the like sincerity the like faith of giving an account to God is required in the one as in the other And he leaves upon this account out the word in way of conscience or in fore Dei and saith my words are imperfect but wherein they are imperfect he sheweth not which maketh his own words imperfect and therefore he turneth my Negative That we are to do no more in governing sister-Churches than in counselling and brotherly advising into an Affirmative never dreamed of by me That brotherly association tieth us to do as much as if we had no further warrant and tâ—… we are to do by his way as much in brotherly duties to all Christians in other Provinces or Nations in France Germany Holland with whom we can by no physical possibility be present and whose faces we never saw as we are to do by fixed office to the single congregations to which we have a providential call by the election and choise of the people for whom we are to search the Scriptures and study pleasant words and for whose souls we are to give an account But 1. It s a fruitless dispute to prove in sundry pages what Mr. R. grants 2. If he proved from my words from his own he may that these are necessary consequences he had done as became a Refuter 3. He cannot from what I say deny but granteth That brotherly consociation tieth teaching Elders to do no more in governing neighbouring Churches than brotherly advising teaching admonishing tieth us unto in point of onerousness and laborious care and so it well follows That there is no more laid upon Presbyterial Elders in governing neighbouring Churches than is laid upon their counselling and brotherly advising Elders in point of daily occurring scandals as is clear in the Rise of Familists Anabaptists Antinomians c. and many scandalous persons arising in sundry Churches lying together 4. The care and onerousness in brotherly watching essentially formally in rendring an account to God as being keepers to our Brethren all the world over with whom we converse in other congregations haply at our door and occasionally is as binding before God as the care of teaching Elders in exercising power of Jurisdiction in Collegio and in things common to divers Churches but it follows not that Christian love tieth me to all the positive means of warning my brother to go to Germany to America to try and admonish all the scandals that are committed there 5. This same Argument is thus retorted upon Mr. H. if the Apostles as Church-members as Believers be obliged all the world over to eat the Lords Supper as Paul did at Troas Acts 20. 11. aâ— Corinth 1 Cor. 10. 17 and in all the Churches on earth to eat and receive the Loâ—… Supper not as an Apostle with an Apostolick but with a faith common to all Christians then must he be obliged as a Christian with the like care and onerousness to leave his calling of an Apostle to go to all places on earth to remember the Lords death and as a Christian to lay down preaching planting of Churches working of miracles and to teach rebuke as a Christian in all places It s not enough to say That the Apostles 1. Were priviledged persons and so might eat the Lords Supper all the world over for they eat not the Lords Supper as Apostles but as believers who were to try and examine themselves and so dâ—â—ncerningly to remember the Lords death until he come again as other believers were 2. Is it enough to say They were occasionally onely to discharge these Christian duties as they should be locally present for so are teaching Elders to perform official duties to these neighbour Churches with whom they occasionally converse in the occasional emergency of scandals and if Pastors were in Africa or America they might without any new ordination or official call preach and govern as Physicians of souls But by Mr. H. his way the Lord in the day of Judgment might say Thou wast a member of that body with which thou hadst a right to â—at the Lords Supper in all Churches on earth therefore I require at thy hand the blood of them that are lost in America because thou watched not over all the Christians on earth which is physically impossible And I require at Paul preaching in the the Wâ—st thâ— blood of such as perished when he was 300 miles absent from them for Paul had an officiall call to all the believers on earth As Mr. H. saith our Presbyterial Elders must give an account for souls that are lost in all the Presbyterial Provincial and National Churches on earth and go all the world over to cure scandals leaving their own calling of Merchandize But by this saith Mr. H pag. 115. a pastoral care is fâ—r more enerous and laborious than Christian and brotherly care in some sense I grant all and there is nothing proved against me who say that this ties teaching Elders to no more in governing Sister Churches in point of binding the conscience to answer for them as far as they have power in matter of common concernment for the wel being of all the near hand associated Churches then brotherly consociation can do And Mr. H. page 112. saith this is true and yet in some sense pastoral care is far more onerous and laborious to wit in using more means in watching fixedly over a Congregation by constant preaching in season and out of season in standying pleasant words administring the Sacraments c. Nor did I ever say any thing to the contrary Mr. H. An eminently gifted man in an Island where no Pastors are is no less saith Mr. R. tyed in conscience in the extraordinary imployment of his calling then if he were formally ordained and chosen their Pastor In some extraordinary cases a gift and Christian love ties even as much to onerousness in using means to save at the office it self See what I add in that place Mr H. saith then this gifted man in an Island in using his generall calling as a Christian destroyes his particular as a Merchant and turn Minister 2. This is to confound the general and particular calling Ans. Not at all for in this case the extraordinary necessity of gaining souls when other Pastors cannot be had and ordination and election by that means are invincibly wanting hic nunc turns his Christian calling in place and room of the particular calling of a Pastor and so Mr. R. said well that in some extraordinary case like this The naked Râ—lation of Iurisdiction addeth nothing to care and onerousness in point of labour by preaching the Gospel Mr. H. If we have a divine command saith Mr. R. to be our brethrens kâ—epers then our Christian watch in that regard requires as much onerousness and care as office watch It follows not saith Mr. H. am I bound by office to watch no more over the
Elect of God have Ioh. 10. 27 28. except women aged children servants be excluded out of the number of the sheep of Christ this is a turning of the Gospel upside down to Popishly confine all the Priviledges of Saints the anointing the spiritual disceâ—ning what key will open the heart to some few male-believers 1. Aged 2. Incorporate so and so But I retort it thus To whom Christ hath given the onely qualifications spiritual of Rulers endued with power of judging those hath he called according to the rule of the Gospel to be such Rulers and they must dig their Lords talents in the earth if they improve them not for that end But the Lord hath given to all Beleevers as Beleevers of the same or of another flock whether in Churches this way or not to women as to males in some measure the anointing grace to know Christs voice Ergo. 2. Let it be observed that the tongue of the learned Esay 50. of which Mr. R. spoke to absolve and open heaven to a man swallowed up with griefe and a gift of a son of thunder to shut the gates of heaven against the obstinate and such as are to be delivered to Sathan are not required in the exercise of the keys of the Kingdome but onely such gifts as are in women is this a good frame of Church discipline Mr. H. God gives to men no calling to a place but he gives rules how they are to order and direct themselves in it But the Word hath no Canons how the people should order the Keyes Answ. Matth. 18. 15. If thy brother c. The Lord points his finger to the Fescuâ— and says Build up one another in the most holy faith 1 Thess. 5. 11 12 13. 2 Thess. 3. 14. Heb 13. 17. Rom. 16. 17. Observe those that cause dissentions among you c. Ans. My Argument is mistaken If there be Rules in the Word how Officers should acquit themselves 1 Tim. 3. 1 2 c. how Judges Kings c. so ought there to be Rules how unofficed brethren the onely Judges for Church-officers do but order and regulate judging as our Brethren say should behave themselves But this is not by our Brethrens way 2. The Reader may observe all along that Mr. H. and his way lays the Ax to the root of the Ministery for he ascribeth the Church acts of office of opening and shutting heaven of the learned Tongue of Excommunicating c. to unofficed men or then he denies that there is any necessity of such in judging and ascribes such acts and qualifications as are in women to their judging Church the very way of Anabaptists and rigid Separatists 3. Mat. 18. 15. shall make every Church-member brother or sister who are to gain by admonishing one another a Church-Judge to exercise the Keyes one over another I thought the power had been given not uni sed unitati to brethren in the Judicature not to stones scattered The edifying one of another and comforting one another and withdrawing from dividers are acts of love required of men women and of Christians of all ranks and by no word tied to those of the same single congregation but to all the Catholick Church should not women withdraw from dividers and therefore these places 1 Thess. 5. 11. 2 Thess. 3. Rom. 16. are abused 4. Ambrose Theophylact Oecumenius Paraphrastes Beza Calvin Marlorat nor any Interpreter dreamed the place Heb. 13. 17. was meant of unofficed brethren who watch and must give an account for souls yea Mr. H. expounds it of officers and yet he cites Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that are over you in the Lord i. e. Brethren of the male-Church obey brethren Mr. H The prwer of the Keys is larger then the power of office and therefore the Lord requires not so much abilities in the brethren as in the Officers Ans. The difference is said not proved 2. If God require the highest abilities in officers to the laying on of hands 1 Tim. 5. 22. to the highest censurer 1 Tim. 19. 20 21. compared with 1 Tim. 3. 1 2 c. 1 Tim. 3. 6. 7 c. then he must require these same far more in brethren the first and proper subject of all power or then the Lord calls them to highest actings and promises to them no gift to or for these highest actings such as delivering to Satan cutting off of members Mr. H. The Keys are given to Peter as representing Church guides Matth. 16. not excluding the consent of the people Ans. We so give the power radically and fiâ—stly to the Church of Believers as by them we communicate office power to the Elders though they be not the first subject Ans. Such a shifting of office-power from the Church of believers which yet is but the third part of the redeemed single Church to Elders if Christ teach Matth. 16. or elsewhere we rest Mr. H. If the Keys be given to the Church the house of wisdom Prov. 9. 1. of God 1 Tim. 3. 15. Heb. 3. 4. builded by Pastors Teachers Ephes. 4. 11 then not the Church of Believers without Pastors Mr. H. the assumption fails for a Church without Pastors is wisdoms house as we proved and is Act. 14. 23. Ans. Mr. H. answers nothing to the places Pro. 9. wisdom hath maids and a table the house in which Timothy was to walk was built by officers Act. 20. 28. 1 Tim. 3. 1 2 3. 1 Tim. 5 17 Give us a pattern of your homogeneal Church for clear it is the Church Act. 14. 23. was the Church of believers no politick ministerial Church until Paul and Barnabas with the free election of the people made them a politick Church so until Titus ordained Elders the Churches of Creet bear the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Cities and though these Cities were Churches yet could they exercise no politick actions nor frame Organs official to themselves until the first founder made them politick ministerial Churches Otherwise as Paul and Barnabas exhorted them to continue in the faith so they should have commanded them to use that radical power to create officers and not have encroached upon their power of the Keys Mr. H. Paul charging the Elders to feed the Flock or the Church Acts 20. implyeth there is a Church distinct from feeders Ans. No doubt there is a flock of redeemed and fed ones of men women children 1 Pet. 4. 2. Iam. 2. 2. Act. 15. 35. that were of late Catechised Gal. 6. 56. different from watchmen but Paul bids the feeders censure the grievous Wolves v. 29 30. but he bids not the fed Church do it far less implyes he that the third part of the redeemed was the male-Church and did or could exercise discipline over both officers and women servants and children Let us see that implyed Mr. H. If they want Officers saith Mr. R. they want the power of edifying Ans. They want the power of edifying as an