and of faithfull Preachers against false Teachers belongs to other visions and cannot be here intended unlesse you had the faculty of making one thing serve for all purposes DIALOGUE Gent. What is meant by the casting the Dragon and his Angels out of heaven Min. Thereby is meant the utter confusion and overthrow of Antichrist by the Spirit of Christs mouth that is by Preaching of the Gospell so as he shall be deprived of all dignity and shall have no place in heaven that is in the Church of God to domineere any more as thankes be to God the Arch-bishop of Canterbury is deprived of all dignity and shall never have any place againe in heaven I meane in the Church of God to domineere as he hath done ANSWER The further you goe the more wrong still in your interpretation But was it so that you could not have a fling at the Archbishop of Canterbury except you streine a Prophecy You had better sure have let him alone then by a false glosse corrupt the text for in this very passage you have done no lesse as is more then manifest nor doe my former Answers but declare it DIALOGUE Gent. Why is this Prophecy appointed to be read on Michaelmas day Min. It is appointed to be read on Michaelmasse day of purpose to pervert the meaning of our Saviour Christ by mis-applying to Michael and all Angels in the highest Heaven the victory that Christ hath and daily doth and will every day more and more give to true Christians that doe follow him fighting his battell against Antichrist ANSWER Here is againe another small dram of your little Charity the accusation is the same with a former and the exposition not agreeing with the scope of the Prophecy For if you study the Revelation throughly you will finde this to be a vision of the Primitive times and not to be extended so low as Antichrist or to the successe of sound Christians fighting against him Besides as for the Churches meaning you might have soberly judged this to be the meaning of the Church in ordering to have this Scripture read at the time appointed That albeit Christ be figured and signified to vs under the type of Michael yet even the Angell Michael is understood to have appeared in the vision shewed to S. John with an host of other Angels fighting against the Dragon and his Angels representing thereby Christ with his heavenly Angels and his servants on earth to sight against the Devill with his Angels and wicked complices and to prevaile against them as was historically fulfilled in the dayes of Constantine who with his souldiers did undoubtedly fight under Christs banner and was incouraged thereunto by miracle and thereby made Generall upon Earth of this holy warfare for behold a bright Crosse appeared in the Heavens about mid-day with this inscription on it * Vide lib. 1. de vita Constant cap. 22. In hoc signo vinces under this ensigne thou shalt overcome The truth of which miracle was confirmed to Eusebius by Oath even from Constantine himself And at the sight of this Constantine being admonished of the Christian Religion suffered himselfe to be taught in Christianity and had the Banners of his Souldiers proportioned according to the fashion of the Crosse with two Greek letters X and P made upon them which should stand to signifie the name of Christ After all which when the warre was ended the divine providence thus ordering these occurrences that thereby we might learn the accomplishment of this Prophesie he took order that a table should be hanged up on high over the gates of his Palace wherein a Dragon was painted which lay thrust through with a Dart under his own and his Subjects feet as a little before I have already mentioned and do now cite for my Authors Eusebius Socrates and Theodoret. Euseb de vit Const lib. 3. cap. Socrat. lib. 1. c. 6. Theod. lib. 1. cap. 15. In every of which places of the said authors the story mentioned stands recorded AND thus hitherto I have followed you step by step and balked nothing which your pretions Dialogue hath afforded You make a sally next against new Orders which because they are upon their tryall I passe them over heartily wishing that under the feare of hatching Popery we may be better setled then to part with piety For whilest these things have been in question the ruder sort are every day more and more irreverent But the God of Heaven put it into the hearts of the high Court of Parliament to look into it and to make the whole kingdome know that the Lord is King both of Heaven and Earth and therefore more to be honoured then any King nay then all Kings else * Psal 99.1 The Lord is King saith David be the people never so unpatient he sitteth between the Cherubins be the Earth never so unquiet a Ps 96 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 Declare his honour unto the heathen and his wonders unto all the people For the Lord is great and cannot worthily be praysed he is more to be feared then all Gods As for the Gods of the heathen they are but Idols but it is the Lord that made the Heavens Glory and worship are before power and honour are in his Sanctuary Ascribe unto the Lord oh yee kindred of the people ascribe unto the Lord worship and power Ascribe unto the Lord the honor due unto his name bring presents and come into his Courts O worship the Lord in the beauty of holinesse let all the Earth stand in aw of him b Ps 122.1 I was glad when they said unto me let us go into the house of the Lord. c Ps 93.6 Thy testimonies O Lord are sure Holinesse becommeth thine house forever d Psal 95 6. O come let us worship and fall down and kneele before the Lord our Maker e Ps 86.8,9,10 Among the Gods there is none like unto thee O Lord there is none that can doe as thou dost All nations that thou hast made shall come and worship thee O Lord and shall glorifie thy name For thou art great and dost wondrous things thou art God alone f Psal 5.7 I will come into thy house in the multitudes of thy mercy and in thy feare will I worship towards the Temple of thy holinesse g Ps 63,2,3,4,5,6 My Soule thirsteth for thee my flesh also longeth after thee in a barren and dry land where no water is Thus have I looked for thee in holinesse that I might behold thy power and glory For thy loving kindnesse is better then the life it self my lips shall praise thee As long as I live will I magnifie thee on this manner and lift up my hands in thy name My Soule shall be satisfied even as it were with marrow and fatnesse when my mouth praiseth thee with joyfull lips h Ps 74.2,3,4,5,6,7 O thinke upon thy Congregation whom thou hast purchased and redeemed of old Thinke upon the
thirtieth Canon of the same Booke or to the three and thirtieth Canon of the Councell of Laodicea which was celebrated in the yeare of our LORD GOD 364. as Iustellus writeth DIALOGUE Gent. What other errour doe you find to be in the Service-Booke Min. The interrupting of the Minister by the Clarke and the whole Congregation is a foule errour and such an error and confusion as doth much offend God and that therefore many are unwilling to come into the Church till the Service be all read ANSWER I doubt me you are none of those who will be so diligent as to reade the whole Service your pretended errours and dislikes which you here lay downe in this Dialogue are cause enough to make me think so And therefore they of your Parish had need to come betimes to Church if they meane to know your Text or heare any more than a peece of your Sermon except you doe as no few of your Sect trifle away a great deale of time in vaine repetitions and idle tautologies in some prayer of your own which our Saviour Himselfe likens to the practice of the Heathen and calls no better than much babling DIALOGUE Gent. How doe they interrupt the Minister Minist By rehearsing his words with a loud voyce and by taking words out of his mouth and by mingling their prayers with his ANSWER This may be answered out of Doctor Boys whose words be these I am occasioned saith he in this place justly to defend the peoples answering the Minister aloud in the Church The beginning of which interlocutory passages is ascribed by Platina to Damasus Bishop of Rome by Theodoret to Diodorus Bishop of Antioch by Walfridus Strabo to Saint Ambrose Bishop of Millane all which lived 1100 yeares before the Church was acquainted with any French fashions and yet Basil Epist 63. alleadgeth that the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Thebes Palestina Phoenicians Syrians Mesopotamians used it long before Socrates and Strabo writ that Ignatius a Scholler unto Christs owne Schollers is thought to be the first Author hereof If any man shall expect greater antiquity and authority we can fetch this order even from the Quire of Heaven I saw the Lord said Esay Esay 6.3 set on an high Throne the Seraphims stood upon it and one cried to another saying Holy holy holy Lord God of Hosts all the World is full of His glory Esay 6.3 Blessed spirits in praising God answer one another interchangeably though unhappie scornefull spirits unmannerly tearme this custome Tossing of Service an interrupting of the Minister a foule errour yea such an errour and confusion as doth much offend God DIALOGUE Minist The Minister when he prayeth is the mouth of the people speaking to God for them therefore they ought to bee silent till he hath done speaking and then to say Amen 1 Cor. 14.16 and not to interrupt him by rehearsing every word after him as in the confession of sinne when the Minister saith Almighty and most mercifull Father we have erred and strayed out of thy wayes like lost sheepe and in the Letany when he saith ô God the Father of Heaven have mercy upon us miserable sinners The Minister must stop and be silent till the Clarke and people have with a loud voyce rehearsed every word after him in which time it is impossible for the Minister to keep idle and by-thoughts from comming into his minde ANSWER If it be so with you that idle and by-thoughts will not be kept from comming into your mind pray to God to settle you better and bee not so rash as to measure other mens corne by your owne Bushell Saint Ambrose tells us that in his times the Church resounded againe with the responds of Men Women and Children like to the Sea with its beating waves or like to the rushing of many waters Thus in the Latine Church And in the Greeke Church Saint Basil is witnesse that the voyce of their prayers and Responds was like the noise of waters beating against the Rockes The patterne whereof seemes to be in Revel 14.2 besides what was before out of Esay 6.3 This is therefore all that I may yeeld you viz. that in every part of the service it is not requisite that it should be so For in many of the Prayers the people are to be silent and have no more to doe with an open and loud voyce than to say Amen But then again when occasion is offered I must say unto them as David did O praise our God yee people and make the voyce of his praise to bee heard Psalm 66.7 Or as it is in another Psalme Psal 95.1 O come let us sing unto the Lord let us make a joyfull noise to the Rocke of our salvation Or as in another Psal 107.31.32 ô that men would praise the Lord for his goodnesse and for his wonderfull works to the children of men Let them exalt him also in the Congregation of the people and praise him in the assembly of the Elders And in a word as for those times in which by the Apostles warrant they are to say Amen at the end of the Ministers prayer it was not without due care observed in the ancient times Saint Paul mentions it in the place alledged by you 1 Cor. 14.16 And as Saint Hierome writes it was the praise of the Primitive Church That their Amen was like a clap of thunder and their Halleluja as the roring of the Sea DIALOGUE Minist Also when hee prayeth for the King saying Lord save the King they interrupt him by mingling their prayer with his saying And mercifully heare us when we call upon thee The Minister being interrupted and put out in praying for the King doth pray for Ministers saying Indue thy Ministers with righteousnesse they doe then also interrupt him by mingling their prayers with his saying And make thy people joyfull ANSWER This is strange that you dare dally thus These Suffrages at which you kick with scorne are answerable to that prayer of David in the hundred and two and thirtieth Psalm where hee prayes for the Prince Priests and People orderly For the Prince Lord remember David For the Priests Let thy Priests be cloathed with righteousnesse For the People Let thy Saints sing with joyfulnesse So we in like manner Lord save thy King Indue thy Ministers with righteousnesse And make thy chosen people joyfull This also justifies our order in praying for the King first for the Clergie next and for the Laity last of all in our well composed Letany with which you quarrell next But had your quarrell been with the mattter of it as with the manner I should have said as worthy Hooker did What one petition is there found in the whole Letany whereof we shall ever be able at any time to say That no man living needeth the grace or benefit therein craved at Gods hands And a little before It now remaineth saith he a work the absolute perfection whereof upbraydeth with error or
Christians of the Primitive Church ANSWER The errour of Transubstantiation we detest as much as you but may not therefore fall in with you in your irreverence If the King offer us his hand to kisse we take it upon our knees How much more when the King of Heaven gives us his sonne in these pledges on whom wee feede in our hearts by Faith with Thanksgiving Another reason is because it is received in Prayer and if men will be ruled by reason they will not when they are to petition the King of Kings omit such a gesture of humility as kneeling is being the most sutable for a man at his prayers and for this cause we kneele at the Communions receiving whereat wee both lift up thankfull hearts unto God for the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ as also begge of God that by the merits thereof our bodies and soules may be preserved to everlasting life It would trouble you sure to derive our kneeling from the errour of Transubstantiation and therefore to no purpose doe you come in with the name of Pope Honorius and tell us of what was hatched at the Councell of Lateran If you were acquainted with Tertullians accipere reservare you would be ashamed to say that Pope Honorius was the first that brought in kneeling Adoration of the Host was indeed brought in by him but not kneeling without such adoration in the act of receiving for they kneeled at the Sacrament in Tertullians time and hee lived betimes and was flourishing about the yeare of our Lord 200. which was 1020. yeares before the Councell of Lateran But you thinke it a great matter I perceive to set up a Shaw-foule to scare a foole yet men of understanding will find you out To ollow on therfore that of Tertul. In the Primitive times were times of persecution when the christians could not meet so often as they would for feare of troubles they had also their Station dayes on which it was not lawfull to worship kneeling In the first case they did accipere reservare receive this Sacrament from the hands of the Priest at Church in severall portions and take it home and eate it there at such times as they thought it fit for their ghostly comfort that they might be sure to have it for their last Viaticum at the approach of sudden and unexpected danger but did not alwayes so for that were to overthrow the nature of the holy Supper and make the Communion to become a private eating And secondly on the dayes of station when they might not kneele they rather chose to forbeare the receiving and partaking of the holy Sacrament than to take it standing Tertullian therefore wisheth them to come though they might not kneele and take it standing at the Altar from whence they might bee suffered to carry it home and eate it at their owne houses kneeling The Leper which came to Christ as Saint Marke reports he kneeled and as St. Luke he fell on his face teaching us in prayer to fall down and kneele before the Lord our Maker He that worships God irreverently shewes himselfe not a Christian but a Manichee who thought God made the soule but not the body It is recorded of the Heathen that before they began their Sacrifices the Priest first beheld the people round about him and demanded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who is here who is here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 say the people againe meaning A company of good folkes Intimating hereby that if there were any there guiltie to themselves of any foule offence they should depart as unworthy the sight of those rites or mysteries of their religion which were then to bee performed And yet because they used to sit at their Sacrifices Tertullian blamed them Ter. lib. de Orâ—t cap 12. For esteeming them to bee Gods whom they worshipped they ought to shew more reverence than to sit before them whom they thought to bee Gods and thereupon inferreth Quanto magis sub conspectu Dei vivi Angelo adhuc orationis astante factum istud irreligiosissimum est Meaning that if it were irreligious for them to sit before their false Gods seeing they esteemed them for true ones it would be more irreligious for us to doe the like before the true God indeed But you say that the Apostles did not kneele when Christ Himselfe delivered the Bread unto them I answer that if this be a good argument then we should receive in no place but in an upper Chamber have no more company but twelve no women but men and take it at no time but after Supper al which we know is otherwise throughout the whole Christian world it being in the Churches power to alter matters of circumstance although she may not alter any matter of the essence or substance of either this or the other Sacrament The rule which we find in Scripture is 1 Cor. 14 40. that all things bee done decently and in order And without question what is reputed enough decently and orderly done at some time and place and upon some occasion is not so at another time and place where no like occasion is we doe not therefore make our selves wiser than Christ and his Apostles but follow the rule which his word affordeth So then if they sat when they received most like it was because they sat down to supper and were not yet risen from the Table nor did they know what their Master was about to do it was more than ever he did before They might perhaps be therefore lesse orderly than otherwise they would have beene And yet that they tooke it irreverently is no where manifest neither that their sitting was like your fashion of sitting but after another manner as differing from your sitting as kneeling is from standing Or however this is certaine that things were not brought into order but by degrees Saint Paul had else never said it that other things he would put in order when he came 1 Cor. 11.34 I tye you then still to Scripture For though the Kings Daughter be All glorious within Yet her cloathing is of wrought Gold Psal 45.13,14 so saith the Psalmist in the 45. Psalme at the 13. verse And whereas you terrifie us with the noise of Canons when you know how to alledge them to better purpose wee shall be willing to heare you For to urge Canons that were against Canons that are is nothing for you It shewes indeed your factious zeale in the way of Shismaticks and the desire that you have to separate from us although wee care as little for the Pope as you But because you talke of ancient Canons I will afford you one to your little comfort namely That with Heretikes or Shismatickes wee ought not to pray which Canon you may reade in the Code of Canons For the Universall Church authorized by the Emperour Iustinian And that you may the sooner finde it I direct you to the hundred and seven and
doe set upon the Minster again and do accuse him saying Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother yea thou hast slandred thine own Mothers Sonne ANSWER If you were not a man of a corrupt minde you would never I feare me vent such stuffe as this do you not tremble are you not afraid to dally thus with the word of God They are likened by some you say to women scoulding and accusing one another And with whom I pray should the Minister scould or who is it that he should accuse if at any time he should chance to read thus to the people alone I hope you would shrink out and be none of his auditors for feare he should scould with you accuse you for consenting with a thief note you for a partaker with adulterers a speaker against thy brother or tell thee that thou hast slandred thine own Mothers sonne away therefore with such impious cavils and dally not thus with the word of God These scoffes are fitter for Pagans then for Christians especially if they consider how dangerous a thing it is to sport themselves with holy things Be not angry Man for I do but reprove thee and set before thee the things that thou hast done I retort with as much patience as I can no more then what your selfe hath cast abroad Others make points and you take in hand to tag them But alasse we have more much like this a little after which as I meet it shall be answered DIALOGUE Gent. I remember that in the Churching of women the Minister is called Priest tell me I pray you is that a fit name for a Minister and Preacher of the Gospel Min. No verily For we read in Gods word of no more orders of Priests but of two the order of Aaron and the order of Melchisedech Of the order of Aaron were the Leviticall Priests whose office was to offer sacrifices which together with the Sacrifices was abolished in Christ his death Of the order of Melchisedech was Christ only and shall remaine Priest for ever A third order of Priests is to be found no where but in the Masse-book and in our Service-book The name Priest belongeth to every Christian man and woman as well as to the Minister according as it is written Revel 1.6 That Christ hath made us Kings and Priests unto God The meaning is that Christ hath made all the Elect men and women Priests to offer the sacrifices of prayse and of thankes unto God ANSWER The Minister is called Priest and why not I hope you know for you have noted it that all true Christians are called Priests and so Saint Peter as well as Saint John declareth it 1 Pet. 2.5 Revel 5.10 and therefore the Minister in particular may much more be called by that name although he offer none of those Sacrifices which were abolished by Christ nor intend the upholding of the Popish Masse with the blasphemous figments which are there else we condemn the Primitive Church of God in which this name which you here would quarrell with was of frequent use as you cannot but know if you know any thing of the ancient times The Prophet Esay doth * Chapt. 61.6 in one place say the same of Christians in generall which even Saint Peter and Saint John have written and in * Chapt. 66.21 another place declareth that God will choose some from among them to be Priests and Levites which though it be but an allusion doth denote a Priest-hood still and this to confist of an imparity as well as of old among the Jewes Besides were it so that the Minister might not be called Priest no more then any other Christian because the Scripture saith of every Christian man and woman Yee are an holy Priest-hood are made Kings and Priests unto God Then would it sollow first that none in particular should be a King And secondly that neither might any among the Jews have been a publike Priest or called by that name because the same which was said to Christians was also said to them when out of the Mount God sent them his message by his servant Moses Yee have seen saith the Lord what I did unto the Aegyptians and how I bare you on Eagles wings and brought you unto my selfe Now therefore if yee will obey my voice indeed and keep my Covenant then yee shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people for all the earth is mine And yee shall be unto me a kingdome of Priests and an holy Nation Exod. 19.4,5,6 It is also warranted by that of Saint Paul in Hebr. 7.12 where if you mark it you shall finde that Priesthood is not taken away but translated or changed onely and so also Irenaeus saith lib. 4. c. 34. And as for the testimonies out of the other Fathers they are so common as I need not mention them only let me say that you may finde the name both of Priest and Priest-hood in the writings of Ignatius that Martyr already mentioned who as you know was scholler to Saint John that wrote the Revelation This strife of words you should therefore carefully avoid it doth but disquiet unstable soules Grant then that name without quarrelling to him which the Scripture not onely gives to every true member of the Church but foretold it in some sort of even the Evangelicall Ministers in more particular where though the Prophet mentions Levites also who were properly so called in regard of their tribe yet as is probable enough he means not that therefore the name of Priest should not be used no more then that of Levite for except those Priests to which he alludeth had had their name only in respect of such Sacrifices as then were offered and to be ended at the death of Christ and not in regard also of other duties which are common to us and them which neither are nor may be abolished I see no reason to think otherwise To teach and blesse the people were the services of the Priests both before the Law and under the Law as well as now Melchisedech was a Priest before the Law and blessed Abraham to whom also Abraham paid his Tythes Gen. 14.19,20 Nor was it but said to Aaron and his sonnes under the Law That they should teach the sonnes of Israel all the Statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses Levit. 10.11 and in Malachy it stands recorded The priests lips should keep knowledge and they should seek the Law at his mouth for he is the Messenger of the Lord of hosts Malach. 2.7 and in Ezekiel They shall teach my people the difference between the holy and prophane ch 44.23 and in 6 Num. the 6 last verses The Lord spake unto Moses saying speak unto Aaron and to his sonnes saying On this wise yee shall blesse the children of Israel saying unto them The Lord blesse thee and keep thee The Lord make his face shine upon thee and be gratious unto the The Lord lift
up his countenance upon thee and give thee peace And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel and I will blesse them All which is still done by the Ministers of the Gospell they blesse they teach they instruct they rebuke they reprove they exhort they consecrate the Bread and Wine to holy uses they offer up the Prayers of the people nay more they do as it were offer Christ in a Mystery and sacrifice him objectively by way of commemoration In which we differ farre from the Church of Rome for the Romish Church professeth the Body and Blood of Christ to be the proper subject we nay but the proper object of our Celebration We take then a Priest and Presbiter now to be all one and list not to quarrell any longer about the word For should we descend to Grammer we are told as much as comes fully home namely that the word Priest hath his right place in him whose meer function and charge is the service of God Whereunto let me only adde that which I find in Bishop Jewell We know saith he that the Priest or Minister of the Church of God is divided from the rest of his brethren as was the tribe of Levi from the children of Israel and hath a speciall office over the people Neither may any man force himself into that office without lawfull calling But as touching the inward Priest-hood and the exercise of the soule we say even as Saint Peter and Saint John and Tertullian have said in this sence every faithfull Christian man is a Priest and offereth to God Spirituall Sacrifices In this only sence I say and none otherwise Thus he granting that there is a Priest-hood internall and a Priest-hood externall For saith he there is not one of us that ever taught otherwise See this in his Defence of the Apology for the Church of England Part 2. pag. 130. DIALOGUE Gent. What do you think of the Priest and Clark when they do Church a woman Min. I will not tell you what I think but I will tell you what some doe say Gent. What do they say Min. They say that the Priest is like a witch Gent. Why doe they say that the Priest is like to a witch Min. Because he doth as a witch doth when she saith the Lords Prayer Gent. What doth a witch when she saith the Lords Prayer Min. She leaves out these words but deliver us from evill and so doth the Priest when he doth Church a woman Gent. Why will not a witch say these words Min. Because the Devill will not let her till she hath bewitched so many as he would have her For by the evill that is prayed against in that petition is meant the Devill and the sinne whereunto he tempteth therefore the Devill will not have her to say these words because when she saith them she prayeth that God will deliver her from him and the witchery whereunto he tempteth her ANSWER This is a cavill scarce worth the answering for it is most certain that the evill which you speak of is prayed against The most therefore which you could urge fairely is no more but this viz. That the order in saying that Prayer had been better without an answer interposed then by the interposing of one in which I think you should have met with few or none to quarrell you But to speak so basely and in such unbeseeming manner as you have done serves as a figne to shew with what a malignant spirit you wrote these things who do rather play the witch your selfe by speaking perverse words to draw away disciples after you then justly accuse the Priest in these your vain janglings But it is as Saint Paul gave notice a great while since when he called the Elders of Ephesus together as we read in the twentieth chapter of the Acts of the Apostles at the 30 verse DIALOGUE Min. The Priest doth also skip over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer for thine is the kingdome power and glory and therein also they say that he is like to a witch when she doth say the Creed for when she saith the second Article And in Jesus Christ his onely sonne she skips over these words Our Lord and so doth the Priest slip over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer Gent. Saint Luke leaves it out and therefore the Priest may leave them out Luk. 11.4 Min. It followeth not that therefore the Minister may leave them out for Saint Luke did not write any thing of himselfe but what the holy Ghost would have him to write Gent. Why would not the holy Ghost have him to write them Min. Because it was sufficient that Saint Mathew had writ them Math. 6.13 ANSWER Here you shew us still more of your skill in witchery and tell us of the Priests skipping over the conclusion of the Lords Prayer And indeed if there were not some President for it in Scripture it might not be But there is president for it in Luke 11.4 although you be pleased to passe it over with a non sequitur And yet for all that it may follow well enough For whereas it seemed good to the holy Ghost in one Evangelist to adde the Doxologie and in another to omit it the Church is blamelesse and may indifferently follow either the one or the other seeing both of them wrote by inspiration For who knows except you who know any thing whether it were the purpose of the holy Ghost to have Saint Luke omit it because Saint Matthew had recorded it and not rather to shew that it was a compleat Prayer at the end of the petitions although the reason of the petitions be not mentioned where the Doxology is omitted It is well then to repeat those words of the conclusion and not ill although they be not alwaies mentioned for our Church in so doing hath the pattern not only of all the Latine and some of the Greek Fathers but even of Saint Luke himself Quando dicimus libera nos à malo nihil remanet quod ultra adhuc debeat postulari as saith Saint Cyprian Cypr. de Orat. Dominic that is When we say Deliver from evill there remains nothing more to be prayed for DIALOGUE Gent. Some doe think because Saint Mark and Saint John doe make no mention of the Lords Prayer that therefore the Minister may omit the reading of it and that because the Evangelists and the Apostles did not use to say it as a Prayer therefore none neither Minister nor people ought to use it as a Prayer Min. The truth is that our Saviour Christ did make it for all Christians to use as a prayer and also for a pattern to pray by Gent. Where doe you finde that our Saviour Christ would have it used as a Prayer Min. In the 11 chapter of the Gospell written by Saint Luke and the second verse where it is written that our Saviour said When you pray say Our Father which c. Gent. Where doe
you finde that our Saviour would have it used for a pattern Min. In the sixt chapter of the Gospel written by Saint Matthew and the nineth verse where it is written that our Saviour said After this manner pray you Our Father which c. ANSWER I would that all in your book could have been as well approved as this for here you speak both the words of sobernesse and truth and I commend you for it DIALOGUE Gent. Why will not the witch acknowledge Christ to be the Lord Min. Because the Devill would have her to take Him and not Christ for her Lord. ANSWER This is mentioned to great purpose I promise you is it not I am loath to trifle away the time in these passages I should else go neer hand to tell you that as Simon Magus was taken for some great one because he had a long time bewitched the people with sorceries so you perhaps would be thought some great one too for your profound knowledge in what passeth between the Devill and witches of which you have so often told us But whilest you are so busie in the Theory of their trade and apply your speculations no better you doe but shew your selfe in your colours to please a company of frantick and mis-perswaded people wilfull and wandring soules who are led with an intemperate spirit as well as you The simple saith Solomon Prov. 14.15,16 beleeveth every word but the prudent man looketh well to his going A wise man feareth and departeth from evill but the foole rageth and is confident Ch. 16. v. 29 30 A violent man entiseth his neighbour and leadeth him into the way that is not good He shutteth his eyes to devise froward things moving his lips he bringeth evill to passe Ch. 15.2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright but the mouth of fooles bableth out foolishnesse And I pray good Sir doe you a little work upon that DIALOGUE Gent. Why doe some say that the Priest and Clarke when they doe Church a woman are like to a couple of players acting their parts Min. Because the Priest doth skip over these words But deliver us from evill and doth leave them to the Clark to say for his part c. ANSWER Before he was like to a Witch but now he and his Clark are likened to Players you will one day be ashamed of this I feare unlesse you act a better part before you leave the stage your present Plaudite may deceive you the future is that which is most materiall But le ts goe on and see what followeth DIALOGUE Min. And then as soon as the Clark hath said them the Priest saith Lord save this woman thy Servant then the Clark comes in again with his part saying which putteth her trust in thee then the Priest as though he would not have the woman to put her trust in him turns her over to the Clark and bids him be unto her a strong Tower then the Clarke answereth and sheweth wherein saying from the face of her enemy ANSWER Oh desperate wickednesse dares any man be so bold as to utter such impieties The first words Lord save this woman thy servant will stand as a sentence against this prophane babler to witnesse against him be he whom he will He a Minister more fit to make a rayling Rabshakeh or a scoffing Michal Let him therefore in time look well unto it lest with prophane Esau he loose his birth-right and be deprived of his heavenly Fathers blessing As well may he tell us that we are to have no other God but the Minister because the Minister reads the first Commandement as vent this thus concerning the Priest and Clark in their Churching of women DIALOGUE Gent. This is a very strange kinde of giving of God thankes for womens safe deliverance from the great pain and perill of Childe-birth Min. It is indeed and no small griefe to honest women not only because there is no thanks given to God for their safe deliverance from the pain and perill of Child-birth but also because thanksgiving is turned to a Jewish kind of Purification For they must come with a vaile to cover their faces after the Jewish manner signifying thereby that by childe-bearing they were made uncleane and that they were ashamed of their uncleannesse or that they had played the Harlots and were ashamed to shew their faces and Juda thought that Thamar was an Harlot because her face was covered with a vaile Gen. 33.14.15 It is a great offence not only to honest women but also to every true Christian man to see his wife goe to the Church like a Jew or like an Harlot ANSWER You have a fine faculty in moulding of matters I see and in fashioning of things according as your selfe thinks good to fancy One while you say it is a strange giving of thanks another while it is no giving of thanks and then again it is a giving of thanks but turned to a Jewish kind of Purification You would make a pretty Proteus I perceive But I will reprove thee and set before thee the things that thou hast done Thou hast let thy mouth speak wickednesse and with thy tongue thou hast set forth deceit according to that of the Psalmist with which you dallied but even now Can I tell how to say otherwise Is here no giving of thanks I marvaile that you blush not nor be ashamed to wrest things contrary to the evidence of open sight I have lifted up mine eyes unto the hills from whence commeth my helpe words sure of thankfulnesse Nay the whole Psalme is an Hymne of Prayse and thanksgiving fitly chosen for such a purpose 2 Chr. 29,30 Moreover Hezekiah the King and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David and of Asaph the Seer and they sang prayses with gladnesse and they bowed their â—eads and worshipped 2 Chro 29.30 The Church then you see goes on in a right way and repaires to a worthy store-house for a fitting form But I perceive your drift as if you aymed like T. C. your great Goliah to have no publike thanks in such a case as this because it comes too neer the Jewish kinde of Purification Wherefore I shall answer in more particular and tell you that although that Law as concerning the Ceremony be ceased yet the righteousnesse thereof is to be fulfilled in those which walk not after the flesh but after the spirit Rom. 8.4 For in all things we are commanded to give thanks 1 Thess 5.18 And must offer the Sacrifice of prayse unto God Heb. 13.15 And if for other benefits thanks and praise be due then for this preservation which in Melancthons phrase is Magnum miraculum a great miracle insomuch that if the Childe when he comes to know it will not stick to say with David Psal 139.13 I will give thanks to thee for I am fearfully and wonderfully made then may the Mother not refuse who
are those words of our Saviour Christ to be understood in Luk. 14.26 where he saith that If any man come to me and hate not his Father and Mother c. he cannot be my Disciple Thus our Saviour Now we know that a man is bound to honour his Father and Mother to love them and not to hate them and yet he that shall love either Father or Mother more then Christ is not worthy of Christ Matth. 10.37 And thus doth one place explain another But howsoever the meaning be that what you mention is not to be referred precisely to the particular persons of Jacob and Esau whereupon you loose that you strive for is plain enough First because Gods Oracle to Rebecca was concerning two Nations Gen. 25.23 where the words be these And the Lord said unto her two Nations are in thy womb and two manner of peâ—ple shall be separated from thy bowels and the one people shall be stronger then the other people and the elder shall serve the younger Duae gentes nen in seipsis sed in suis patribus secundum Prophetiam quoque ipsius Isaac quando Minorom pro Majore benedixit And secondly because the Prophet Malachy declares the same nay he shews the accomplishment thereof in the Israelites and Edomites the one whereof were discended of Jacob the other of Esau Malach. chap. 1. The Paraphrase whereof is as followeth Ecce populus Israeliticus ex Jacobo oriundus populus iste est quem singulariter dilexit Deus quippe cui ex merâ—… dilectiâ—…e gratia terram promâ—ssam melle lacte fluentem Abrahamo Isaaco olim promissam velut haereditatem possidendam dedit Populus verò Edomeus ex Esau progenitus populus iste est quem Deus amore isto singulari complecti favore tam prolixo adficere noluit quippe cui horrida inculta loea montes Seir vastos saxosis desertosque cum fertili ista terra promissa miniâ—… conserendos habitandos dedit ut servilis borum filialis istorum conditio juxta praegressum de illorum capitibus or aculum clare elucesceret And was it not that out of both these Saint Paul cited that which you have aymed at and in Saint Pauls Epistles are some things hard to be understood as Saint Peter tels us 2 Pet. 3.16 Wherefore let me advise you not to be rash in citing from thence things hard to be understood nor come with things obscure against what is elsewhere plain and manifest for then you will neither benefit your self nor truly instruct others The elder shall serve the younger understand that not of the persons of Esau and Jacob for Esau never served Jacob but of the two * Major populus serviet Minori id est Primogenitus populus haeres non trit terrae Canaan sed secundogenitus Propositum enim Dei erat vocare semen quos quales vult Nations which were to come of them as the words of God declare which said not to Rebecca Two men but two Nations are in thy womb And then whereas the Apostle presently subjoyneth Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated it is not to be taken as if it were spoken before the children were born as was the former Oracle for this was said many ages after by the Prophet Malachy and spoken likewise not of two men but of two people as in the said Prophet is apparent Besides the very phrase of speech declareth that this was not as the other spoken before the Children were born for then it had not been in the Preterperfect but in the Future tense So that all the reference which this can have unto the former is but to shew how Gods purpose took effect in preferring the Nations which came of Jacob before the people which came of Esau which he terms love and hatred and is found to be so in the sence already mentioned But whereto serve those examples if they be not to shew that God irrespectively decreed to save the persons of some of them in particular and absolutely in particular according to the Councell of his will to damn the others Verily he that shall read the Scriptures and find it * Ezek. 18 32. ch 33.11 1 Tim 2.4 2 Pet 3.9 written that God would not the death of him that dyech would have all to be saved and is not willing that any one should perish will scarce be perswaded that God hath absolutely decreed any mans damnation I answer therefore Gods love to mankinde is such that not only is the promise of Grace Universall but also free and taken by Faith alone insomuch that the Apostle to the Romans plainly excludes all prerogative of the flesh and merit of workes and concludes that every one who believes shall not be ashamed For there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile For he that is Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him And hereto serve those famous Types and Heads of Nations which he propoundeth when he brings in the sonnes of Abraham and of Isaac already mentioned which types as Hemmingius speaketh Hemming Syntagm capit De Praedestinat sect 32. are to be fitted after this manner viz. that in certain commodities belonging to this life all which are born of the seed of Abraham and Isaac are not reckoned for their sonnes Much lesse in things spirituall are they accounted as sons who draw their originall from those holy Fathers Wherefore even as in profits and priviledges belonging to this life they only are reputed the sonnes of whom the holy Patriarchs had the promises So in things Spirituall they only are to be reckoned as sons of Abraham whose faith is in the free promise and not those who exult and swell by reason of the Prerogative of the flesh as did the carnall Jews whose rejection he sheweth to be just notwithstanding they could say we have Abraham to our Father * Similiter nunc propositum hoc Dei manet quo Judaeos legem praefracte sectari volentes licet illi praeferri debere videantur Gentilibus semen vocare non vult sed omnes solos eos sive Judaei sunt qui Evangelio filii ejus credunt et si hi illis deteriores indigniores esse videantur DIALOGUE Gent. This errour you say is in the Rubrick what is in the Chatechisme Min. In the Catechism it is affirmed that Christ hath redeemed all Mankind The truth is that Christ came into the world not to redeem all Mankind but the Elect only therefore the Evangelist Saint Luke setting forth the Genealogy of Christ beginneth from Joseph and ascendeth to Adam and from Adam doth descend to Sheth who was the first of Elect that was born after the death of Abel and maketh no mention of Cain nor of any of his posterity And Saint Matthew beginning from Abraham and from Abraham descendeth to Isaac and from Isaac to Jacob and maketh no mention of Ishmael nor of Esau nor of any that
him to bee an Angell it is like enough he would have demeaned himselfe otherwise but taking him to be a man as he seemed hee was more honest than to set him a worke for nothing Nor in case this story were as true as could be were it more absurd for old Tobie to offer this Angell wages whilst he knew him not than it was for Gideon to present an Angell with a Kid or for Lot to afford the Angels lodging or for Manoah to dresse a Kid likewise that the Angell might eate For Manoah saith the Scripture knew not that he was an Angell Iudges 13.16 And as for the dog going with them it is an usuall thing for a dogge to runne abroad with his Master and I pray quarrell not with him for feare hee bites you Little reason is there that you should bee troubled to see a man with a dogge at his heeles except he were going into a Church But if you be of the Packe of Praecisians you care as little to exclude your dogge from thence as you doe to shut out your owne irreverence And yet Iacob could say Gen. 28.17 How dreadfull is this place surely it is no other than the house of God and the gate of Heaven The Lord also saith Levit. 19.30 Ye shall observe my Sabbaths and reverence my Sanctuary And in the Prophet Malachie Mal. 1.6 If I saith the Lord be a Father where is my honour If I be a Master where is my Feare And in the Gospell Mat. 21.13 Luke 19.46 It is written saith Christ that my House shall bee called the house of prayer but yee have made it a denne of Theeves Thus t was then And I would to God it could not in some sort bee as truely said that Gods House is by many made no better still than a denne of Theeves wherein they rob him of his service and are not against the respect which is done there to themselves giving none at all to him before whom they cannot bee too reverent but should bow which we commonly reade Worship fall downe and kneell Psal 95.6 as the Psalmist speaketh Nor doth Saint Paul but say 1 Cor. 11 22. That the Corinthians despised the Church of God for which hee praysed them not And as for reverence to bee done to the Lord of Heaven and Earth the same Apostle instructs the Hebrewes thus Wherefore saith he Heb. 12.28,29 Wee having received a kingdome which cannot be shaken let us have grace whereby wee may serve God acceptablie with reverence and a godly feare For our GOD is a consuming fire All which Scriptures mentioning these things are quoted in the Margent DIALOGUE Minist On the third of October another lying fable is appointed to be read how Tobias being come from Rages did call the Angell unto him and bade him take a servant and two Camels and goe to Rages for mony and that the Angell went and carried writings which he delivered to Gabael who brought bags of mony sealed up which he delivered to the Angell ANSWER Her 's still great noise and little Wooll much spoken but to little purpose as in the former answers hath beene already shewed DIALOGUE Gent. O horrible how have the Bishops deluded King Edward the sixt Queene Elizabeth King James and Our gracious King Charles and the whole estate and made them beleeve that there was nothing in the service Booke contrary to Gods Word God Almighty deliver us from them ANSWER You talke you know not what for that the Bishops have not deluded the state nor those Princes which you speake of appeares First by the Martyrdome of those worthy Bishops which suffered in the dayes of Queene Mary Secondly by the conference holden at Hampton Court in the beginning of King Iames his Raigne who as you know was a Prince so well accomplished in learning and particularly in Divinity that if they would they could not have captivated his judgment and skill as in that conference is most apparent His wise Nobles saw it well enough For being present and observing all passages they were perswaded that His Majesty spoke by inspiration And thirdly that they went not about to delude him appeares by that which they said throughout the whole conference and especially by the faire dealing with His Majestie about particular absolution and private Baptisme DIALOGUE Gent. Now that you have shewed me the blasphemies and lying fables shew also what are the Popish errours that are in it and first tell me whether the Service Booke doth command that all both Ministers and people shall bow their bodies when the Name Jesus is read Minist The Bishops only without any warrant from God but from the Pope Gent. I have read that the Name Jesus was a common name among the Jewes was it so Minist Yes Syrach of Jerusalem had a son whose name was Iesus Eccl. 50.23 Also Ioshua the son of Nun was called Iesus Acts 7.57 and one of Saint Pauls fellow Labourers was called Iesus Col. 4 11. Gent. Why doe the Bishops make an Idoll of the name Jesus by causing men to bow their bodies and to put off their hat when it is read Min. Because they mistake the Word of God where it is written that at the name of Iesus every knee shall bow both of things in Heaven of things on earth and of things under the earth Phil. 2.10 Gent. What is the name of Jesus Min. As by the name of our gracious King Charles is meant not the name Charles which is a common name but the authority and power that God hath given him over all people within his owne dominions as when men are prest to the Kings service they are prest in the Kings name that is by vertue of authority and power from the King even so as by the name of K. Charles is meant his authority and power c. So by the name of Iesus ia meant the authority and power that God hath given him over all things in Heaven and in Earth and under the Earth Gent. What is meant by things in Heaven Min. By things in Heaven are meant the holy Angels and soules of the faithfull that have no knees Gent. What is meant by things on Earth Min. By things on Earth are meant all mankinde living on earth whether they be Elect or Reprobate Gâ—nt What is meant by things under the Earth Min. By things under the Earth are meant the Devils and damned soules in hell Gent. What is meant by bowing of the knee Min. By bowing of the knee is meant subjection Isa 45.23 and not bowing of the body when the name Jesus is read as Pope Anastatius did command Anno 404. Gent. What is meant by bowing of every knee of things in Heaven of things on earth and of things under the earth Min. Thereby is meant that all the holy Angels and Saints in Heaven and all mankinde on earth and all the Devils and damned soules in hell shall submit themselves to
Christ and acknowledge him to be Lord of all and to have power over all to save and condemne whom he will ANSWER You undertake at the first to speake of things in the Common-Prayer-Booke but now I see you are fallen upon something else His name as you say which first commanded to bow at the name of Iesus was Anastatius a man I hope of an earlier date than either to be termed Pope by way of derision or to bee slighted for his care about this custome which the Church was acquainted with a long time before hee was ever Bishop of Rome Saint Hierom in his Comment upon Esay the 45.23 which is the very text alledged by you to be a testimony against bowing of the knee speakes of it as no new thing in his time for It is saith hee the custome of the Church to bow the knee to CHRIST which the Jewes shewing the perversenesse of their minds altogether refuse to doe noting thereby that it was so farre from being new as that it was come to bee one of the Churches customes Zanchy is able to say that the use is ancient Nor do men of great reading but affirme that it was used in the time of Arius which must needs be in the Primitive times because Arius was before the first Councell of Nice Nor might it but bee used sooner if wee cast an eye to the scoffings of the Jewes For the Jewes began to scoffe and mocke at our Saviour in allusion to his name even when he suffered and have ever since derided the Christians with their crucified Iesus Thus the chiefe Priests mocking him with the Scribes and Elders alluding to his name Jesus said He saved others himselfe he cannot save Matth. 27.42 And as Marlorat speaketh Marl. in Mat. ch 1. â— 21. The Jewes in scorn and derision to this day cal our Saviour not Jesus but Jehu which with them signifieth only some common and contemptible fellow As then the name Iesus is that name in which he was derided and which they abuse by their chopping and changing that they might thereby abase our Saviour and with which they flout us for our faith so is it that name in which he must bee honoured The Father hath assigned so much unto him and wee are bound to afford it as a part of his reward for the death of the Crosse His person wee know is taken from us but his Name he hath left still with us And as his Person for suffering is crowned with honour and glory Heb. 2.9 So must his Name be so farre exalted as that at the Name of Iesus every knee must bow Phil. 2.10 And thus will your figurative exposition be nothing worth though illustrated by a comparison of things done in the Kings name For at the name of Jesus is meant Jesus named to whom we how when we heare him called by that name For though his Person bee exalted and sitteth at the right hand of God yet his Name in which he was despised is not exalted by us as it ought except we also reverence his Person upon the mentioning of that name which God hath given him to bee above every Name that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow Where is then the Idoll which you speak of it would trouble you sure to finde it out and therefore that calumnie was either ignorantly cast upon the Bishops or maliciously to bring upon them the greater Odium obloquie contempt and scorne But others you say were called Jesus as well as our Lord and Saviour true some others have had that name given them by humane imposition but not as given to our Redeemer by God with a command of his adoration Ther 's none of them that could either doe that which hee did or be saved but by him and must therefore so resigne this name to him as that he beare it with a maine difference from them all And as for that which you say of the holy Angels and soules of the faithfull which have no knees they have their wayes surely to doe that which wee doe in our bodies else it would never bee given in charge that all the Angels of GOD must worship him Hebr. 1.6 Nor bee written that the Saints in Heaven fall downe before him Rev. 5.8,9 Nor may them in Hell bee excluded For though it bee a torment to them to testifie either reverence or subjection yet seeing Christ must Reigne till he have put all his enemies under his feet they shall whether they will or no be brought unto it a proofe of which assertion is in the foureteenth chapter of the Romans at the tenth and eleventh verses In which regard the Apostles words Phil. 2.10 mentioning that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow both of things in Heaven of things on Earth and of things under the Earth are not unfitlie said to bee a Prophecie which by many Christians is fulfilling in this life here on earth by blessed spirits and Saints is fulfilled in Heaven and shall fully be accomplished in the day of judgment as Master Calvin very well observeth For though it bee a prophecie wee must know that under this prophecie expressed there is a dutie implyed For Prophecies saith one are of two sorts some that are fulfilled in an instant others by degrees and by little and by little of which latter sort is this prophecie that every knee shall bow DIALOGUE Gent. What doe you thinke of them that kneele when they receive the Communion bread Min. The Papists say that they are Idolaters because they kneele and doe not beleeve the reall presente as they doe ANSWER It is no matter what the Papists say Their dislike should me thinkes moderate your spleene and make you think the better of us for their sakes To beleeve their reall presence is no part of our Creed and yet to kneele is a part of our devotion Wee kneele no more to the Bread than to the Pulpit or to our seates when we joyne with the Minister in praying unto God But our quarrell is not now with them of Rome but with you for taking durt out of their puddles and causelesly to throw it at us DIALOGUE Gent. Who was the first that brought in kneeling Min. Pope Honorius about the yeare of our Lord 1220. after that the errour of Transubstantiation was hatcht at the Councell of Lateran Gent. J have read in Gods Word that the Apostles did not kneele when Christ Himselfe delivered the bread unto them I have read also in the Booke of Martyrs that the ancient Councels in the Primitive Church did make Canons against kneeling least it should prove an occasion of Idolatry Ought not we to conforme our selves to our Saviour Christ and his Apostles and to the Christians of the Primitive Church rather than to the Devils Vicar-generall the Pope Min. Yes verily for it is grosse hypocrisie in us to make a shew as though wee were more godly and zealous than the Apostles and