the Bar does swear what is said there is true Lord Stafford Then he says there he saw Letters signed by me to Fenwick and others I do humbly desire to know whether that be Evidence or no that a man says he saw Letters and does not say he knew them to be my hand nor what the Letters were in particular nothing that he did prove of it I must appeal to your Lordships to all my Lords to my Lord High Steward and the rest that were of the Council at that time whether Dr. Oats did not positively name some and left ne out at the Council Table And whether Dr. Oats did not say there was no Lord concerned in the Plot and whether some of my Lords did not say so and told some other Lords of it from whom I had it And in order to this desire Sir Philip Lloyd may be examined and if he did not know of my being in it then he hath since forsworn himself L. H. Stew. My Lord I know not where you are nor what you are about are you objecting against Oats upon any Evidence out of the Journal Lord Stafford My Lords I go upon this that hath been read L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord produce your Witnesses that did hear him say any thing and take your advantage of it Lord Stafford I call Sir Philip Lloyd L. H. Stew. Where is Sir Philip Lloyd L. Stafford My Lords I do not know I think he is here I hope he will come Then he appeared amongst the Members of the House of Commons and was called to the Bar amongst the other Witnesses and stood up L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship ask Sir Philip Lloyd L. Staff Whether he was not by when Dr. Oats was asked if there were any Lords concerned in the Plot and he said no and whether he did not tell me so a day or two before I was committed in the Pâ—inces Lodgings L. H. Stew. What say you Sir Philip â—loyd did you ever hear Dr. Oats deny upon his Oath that ever he heard of any Lords that were concerned in the Plot Sir Philip Lloyd My Lords Truly I cannot remember any such thing If my Lord put me in mind of any particular Circumstance or time I may recollect it I must confess I think I have heard such a thing rumor'd but I am so unfortunate I cannot remember any thing positively of it L. Stafford He did tell me so I am sure Sir Philip Lloyd Truly my Lords I would be glad to remember any thing to justifie the Truth but I can't remember this L. Stafford But whether it were so or no your Lordships that were of the Council can tell L. H. Steward My Lord I do not know Your Lordship cannot be refused if you press it to ask any of the Lords of the Council if they remember any such thing that did pass there but if I were there or in the Council I deal plainly with your Lordship I cannot say that there was any such thing said L. Stafford If there be any here that were there besides I desire they may be asked L. H. Stew. If your Lordship will call upon any other of my Lords that were there they will tell you Lord Stafford I do not know who were there I can't call them L. H. Stew. You may ask any of the Lords of the Council who were there that time Dr. Oats was examined Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lords I was not at the Council then but I heard it not there indeed but as a general Report abroad L. Stafford I desire my Lord Privy Seal may tell what he knows of it Lord Privy Seal What is it your Lordship would know of me L. Stafford Whether Oats did not say he had no more to accuse Lord Privy Seal Where my Lord L. Stafford At the Council Table Lord Privy Seal 'T is a very hard thing for me to charge my memory with all the Questions at an Examination we use to refer to the Examinations themselves I have seen some Examinations I wish all were so wherein the Questions are put down as well as the Answers and I cannot charge my memory that he said he had no more to accuse L. Staff I desire then all the Lords of the Council that are here to say whether or no he was not asked this Question particularly by my Lord Chancellor and I desire particularly his Lordship would say whether he can't remember it whether he had any thing to say against some Lords and he answered they were to know of it but God forbid he should accuse them L. H. Stew. When should that be L. Stafford My Lords I can't say the day for I was not in Town But I desire to ask whether you did not ask him upon the first Discovery of the Plot whether he had any thing to say against some Lords L. H. Stew. Do you desire to know whether I asked him this Question if he had any thing to say against some Lords L. Stafford I do not say positively your Lordship but whether that Question was not asked him L. H. Stew. Certainly I should never ask any such Question of any man alive I might ask in general of any Lord but not of some L. Stafford Some or other Lords it was L. H. Steward I don't remember it and 't is impossible for any man living to remember what Questions he did ask two or three years ago upon an Examination L. Stafford I desire I may have leave to ask the Earl of Berkley a Question L. H. Steward What is it you would ask him L. Stafford My Lords I humbly ask his Lordship whether he did not hear Dr. Oats say after he had accused some persons before the Council that he had no more to accuse Earl of Berkley My Lords I had the Honour to be of the Privy Council about the time of the Discovery of the Plot but I do not remember that I heard Dr. Oats say any such thing there L. Staff Or in the House of Lords for I may mistake And therefore I desire my Lord of Berkley would declare what he heard Dr. Oats say before the House of Lords Earl of Berkley Yes my Lords in the Lords House I will tell your Lordships what I remember My Lord Chancellor to the best of my remembrance did ask Dr. Oats at the Bar of the House this Question My Lords desire to know if you can accuse any other Person or Persons of what Quality soever and you are incouraged by their Lordships to Accuse them His Answer was My Lords I have no more to accuse in relation to England but in relation to Ireland I have L. H. Steward That was after he had accused your Lordship my Lord Stafford Sir W. Jones We pray my Lords we may have the favour to ask that very Honourable Lord at what time Dr. Oats said this for the satisfaction of those that are present Earl of Berkley My Lords it was after Dr. Oats had accused my
you could give an account of every day Lydcot I did not think any Question of this Nature would come on the stage there is my Lords Steward can give a very good account of this by his Account Books which are all ready to be produced he can tell where my Lord was by laying out such and such moneys And 't is an hard thing to give a Testimony after so many years of a thing that we thought not would ever be a Question L. H. Steward Let us see your Notes Lydcot My Lords I will read it to your Lordships L. H. Steward When was this written Lydcot I took this out of another Book L. H. Steward When Lydcot Lately since Mr. Turbervill's Narrative came out Sir Will. Jones Oh I desire that may be observed L. Stafford If your Lordships please I desire that he may bring his Books Oh oh will not condemn me but Law and Justice I am not to be run down with Oh oh or what such impudent Villains as these say L. H. Stew. Read what you have there Lydcot From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. where we staid three weeks and arrived thence at London January 24. there we staid till May 73. and from thence we went to Liege again in June and from Liege we set forth to London in August and returned October the 3d. 73. L. H. Stew. Were you all the while between August and October in London Lydcot I am morally certain that I did not go from my Lord all that time L. H. Stew. Where were you after October Lydcot Which October if your Lordship please L. H. Stew. October 73. Lydcot At Liege for we returned to Liege at October the 3d. and then after this my Lord sent me into England I left him at Liege and from thence I set out for England and in January I returned to Liege which was the greatest part of time that I was ever absent from him L. H. Stew. And was he at Liege are you sure all that time from October to January Lydcot Yes except he fled For I sent Letters by the Foreign Post and received Letters by the Foreign Post every week And his Account-Books will speak it Sir W. Jones My Lords we desire to ask him one Question since he can give so exact an account whether my Lord Castlemain was in England 72 and how much of that year Lydcot Yes Sir W. Jones How many months of the year 72 was he in England Lydcot I read it before We arrived from Liege to London January 24. 72. and staid at London till May 73. L. H. Stew. But where was my Lord all the year 72 Lydcot Pray my Lords do you mean New stile or Old stile L. H. Steward When I speak of his being at London I mean the stile of the Countrey Sir William Jones Then under favour he speaks of the latter part of the year I desire to know whether my Lord for all the former part of the year was in England L. H. Stew. Where was my Lord in December 72. and in November before that and in all the year up backwards Lydcot My Lords I have told you the whole year L. H. Steward But where was my Lord from January 71. to January 72 Lydcot In 71. June 19. New stile we came to London and returned in September to Liege from Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. and arrived at London January 24. L. H. Stew. He runs past the time Sir Will. Jones My Lords we ask him a plain Question but he does not answer it he slips over the time that we desire your Lordships to ask him about L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships that it may be made plain that there may nothing be said afterwards that it was not plain Lydcot Sir Do you propose any thing to me and I will answer it Sir Will. Jones Answer not us answer my Lords Lydcot I desire any body may peruse my Notes if they please L. H. Stew. Pray Sir answer the Question whichin very short terms is this where my Lord Castlemain was all the whole year 72. Lydcot Well my Lords I will I can but read it over again From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. L. H. Stew. Are not you a rare Fellow now Lydcot My Lords I understand it according to the stile of that Country when I am there and of this place when I am here L. H. Stew. Answer me according to our stile Lydcot This that I have written here in the Book out of which I took it hath been written ever since that time and I did not think I should er'e be called to account about it L. H. Stew. Begin January the 1st 71. Lydcot We went from Liege to Paris where we staid about a week or such a time and we arrived at London January 24. that is the Old stile and staid at London till May 8. 73. L. H. Stew. That is impossible for you ' scape a year and a half to together Lydcot My Lord was here in England in January L. H. Stew. You begin very gravely with January stylo veteri that you came from Liege and so January 24. stylo veteri you came to London Lydcot When I speak of any style I understand it according to the style of the Country L. H. Stew. But in your account what is become of all the time from January 71. to January 72. say and swear if you can where my Lord was all that time Lydcot He must be in London L. H. Stew. Can you take it upon your Oath that my Lord was in London from January 71. stylo veteri to May 73. stylo veteri Lydcot I cannot know how to count better than I have done L. Stafford Mr. Turbervill says my Lord Castlemain was in 73. at Powis-Castle I beseech your Lordships this man may be asked and that without any interruption where my Lord was that year Sir Will. Jones With your Lordships favour I must desire your Lordships to ask Mr. Turbervill whether he did say positively the year â—3 for if my Ears and my Notes do not fail me he said As he remembred and that is the reason why we ask about the year 72. Mr. Turbervill My Lords I do not say positively nor cannot which year it was Lydcot My Lords I do stand upon it that he was in London January 72. and went away May 73. L. H. Stew. What becomes of the mean time between January 71. and May 73 Lydcot My Lords I explain my self as well as I can L. H. Stew My Lord Stafford will you call any more Witnesses L. Stafford Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Call them then Earl of Shaftsbury My Lord High Steward I desire my Lord Stafford may be asked how many Witnesses my Lord hath more for it now grows late L. H. Steward My Lord I desire to know how many Witnesses you have more L. Stafford Three or four I can't well tell how many Lords Adjourn Adjourn
Godfrey said he I hear he was an active Justice of the Peace against the Papists and he made this inference We had need have a care what we do for we shall be all sacrificed Sir Will. Jones My Lords will your Lordships be pleased to observe that yesterday there was some Witnesses called to disparage Mr. Dugdale And the first man as I can remember was a very substantial Gentleman called Mr. Robinson I think he was not able to give an account of his Employment but he was a Gentleman that lived upon his Money I remember those were his words My Lords we shall call without telling you what they will say some Witnesses to prove the Condition of this Gentleman what Reputation he is of and what is his Conversation And we first call my Lady Gerard. L. Stafford My Lords pray give me leave to say one word but 't is no great matter 't is not worth the speaking L. H. Stew. What can you say my Lord L. Stafford It was only a thought of my own not worth troubling your Lordships with Then the Lady Gerard appeared and was sworn L. H. Stew. Does your Ladyship know one William Robinson Lady Gerard. No my Lords Sir W. Jones He hath several Names we desire he may be called L. H. Steward Call Robinson the Upholsterer He was called but appeared not Sir W. Jones I perceive we mistake one Lady for another We desire Mr. Booth a Member of the House of Commons may be Sworn VVhich was done in his place L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford send for Robinson your Witness L. Stafford I believe he is here but if he be not one that belongs to me I have sent to see for him whether he be a good or a bad Witness I do not know personally Sir VV. Jones Mr. Booth knows him very well he saw him yesterday and so we may venture to ask him the Question L. H. Steward Did you see Robinson the Witness yesterday Mr. Booth Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. Do you know him Mr. Booth My Lords I do know him very well though I have not seen him often for indeed my Lords he behaved himself so the first time that I saw him that I believe I shall never forget him My Lords I am better acquainted with his Character than his Person though I know the man very well and truly the first time that ever I was in his company he gave me no incouragement ever to desire it again for if you please I 'le tell you how I came to know him He told your Lordships that he came into Cheshire at a Cocking it was at that time that I saw him for upon the Sunday after the Cocking I was invited to a Neighbours about two miles from home We were set down to Dinner and we had not sat long but this man comes into the Room where we were there was an empty place at the lower end of the Table and he sits him down and began a discourse to ridicule the Lords day in such a manner as I never heard the like And the rest of his discourse was full of a great deal of Contempt of God Almighty and all that was sacred All his discourse at Dinner was very prophane It was not in mine own House and because it was not taken notice of by the Master of the House and he coming under the protection of a young Gentleman I did not what else I should for I should have made him hold his tongue or have used it to better purpose The whole of his discourse was so Atheistical and prophane that I never heard the like in my life When dinner was done he used a great many inticements to draw the Company into play by asking what would they say if they should see such and such things to be done and at length he pulls out a great many Dice out of his pocket and behaves himself in that manner as people do that would draw in others to play and they that had better skill in it than I said that they were all false When I saw this I desired him to leave our Room or to forbear for said I if this be the entertaintment of the day I must leave the Company then they commanded him to desist This is all that I do know of my own knowledge But I shall acquaint you what I believe for I have heard it from very considerable persons whom I dare credit for the man run much in my mind because I never saw so ill a man in my life Coming home I was speaking to some of my Family says I Yonder I met with the strangest fellow that I ever saw in my days he is fitter to be hanged than any thing else Oh Sir said they there is such a fellow hath cheated I know not how many at the Town where the Cocking was The next day I think it was or shortly after I had occasion to go to that Town and many people came and complained to me of his Cheats to a very great degree They asked me what they should do said I you have nothing to do but indite him for a Cheat. Why said they will you take no course with him Said I What course can I take I am turned out of the Commission of the Peace else I know enough to bind him to the good behaviour After this I had occasion to go into Lancashire and there I found he was better known than trusted There were very loud Complains against him and some would have given Twenty pound to meet with him I heard afterwards he went into Staffordshire and he changed his Name where ever he went but he soon discovered himself and all thereabouts he goes for a notorious Cheat. This is all I can say of him L. Stafford My Lords Be pleased to give me leave to say one word I assure you if I had thought this man had been such a fellow as now he proves I would not have brought him before you I never knew what he was in my life nor heard of his Name till Saturday last L. H. Stew. It may be so my Lord. But your Lordship must take notice that this is the man that gave the most important Evidence that Dugdale should corrupt him to swear against you for money L. Stafford Give me leave to observe upon that my Lords That if Dugdale knew him to be a cheating fellow he might think him the liker to take money to forfwear himself Sir Will Jones My Lords we shall not reply now but observe anon how this cheating fellow comes to swear for my Lord at this time But we desire an Honourable Peer of this House may give some account of him and that is the Noble Lord the Earl of Maclesfeld I think he may be known to your Lordships Then the Earl of Maclesfeld stood up L. H. Stew. Pardon me my good Lord my Lord must be sworn E. of Maclesfeld Before I am sworn I would know of your Lordships
I do not think we shall need to trouble your Lordships more with this matter that my Lord was lame sometime he is pleased to confess One Witness says that he put his Foot on a Cushion my Lord does not acknowledge that L. Stafford I was never lame at Paris Sir VVill. Jones That a man that is lame does sometimes ease his Foot is no hard Consequence I think L. Stafford I deny I was lame then I walked about the streets of Paris I desire I may not be misunderstood Sir VVill. Jones I must then desire under his Lordships favour if he will not acknowledge it to be within seven years that we may prove it and falsifie his Witness the Page L. Stafford I have gone with a stick to the House I acknowledge it and been lame with weariness Sir Fr. VVinn The Objection went to the Credit of our Witness and therefore we desire to answer it my Lord was not lame as he says for so many years but if we prove that within less time my Lord hath been lame it will take off that Objection from our Witness And we desire a Noble Lord or two of this House may testifie what they know And first the Earl of Stamford who was sworn Earl of Stamford My Lords I think I have not had the honour to sit in this House much above seven years but long since that time I have seen my Lord Stafford come lame into the House of Peers and that is all I can say L. Stafford I have come lame with a stick to the House I say Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we desire that Noble Lord my Lord Lovelace may be sworn which was done Lord Lovelace My Lords the Account that I can give your Lordships is this I cannot ascertain any time but I am sure and I do declare it upon my Honour and the Oath I have taken that I have seen my Lord Stafford lame in the House of Lords within less than this seven years L. Stafford If he goes home to the Tower he may see me lame but never put my Foot upon a stool Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember we did call a Witness one Thomas Launder and the account we had of him was he was gone sick from the Bar he was very sick indeed but being just now brought we desire he may be heard though it be out of time we call him to the Reputation of Holt. Thomas Launder was sworn Sir John Trevor Do you declare to my Lords whether you know Samuel Holt Launder Yes my Lords I do L. H. Steward What do you know of him Launder He is a Smith my Lords L. H. Steward What Reputation is he of Launder Indifferent my Lords Sir William Jones What do you mean by that good or bad speak plainly Launder A Drunken Sot a man that will Drink and Rant and Tear the Ground and sing two or three days or a week together and lose his time Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask this man whether he was summoned as a Witness upon any Tryal in relation to the Plot L. H. Stew. Were you ever summon'd as a Witness about the Plot Launder My Lords I was summon'd concerning my Lord Aston's Tryal and I came up with my Lord Aston's people as an Evidence Sir W. Jones Had you any offer of money and what sum Launder Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords with it L. H. Stew. Who offered it you and when and for what Sir Will. Jones For what was that money offered you Launder The money was not absolutely offered me but I was to have an Horse to ride on and money in my Pocket if I could take off James Ansel Dugdale's Evidence L. H. Stew. Who came and offered it to you Launder I was sent for by Mr. Fox to Tixal Hall and there was my old Lords Brother for one and Mr. Thomas Aston that is this young Lords Brother and Mr. Francis Aston who is my Lords eldest Son were in a Room together and this Thomas Sawyer that was here and more were in the Room when they promised all these things L. H. Steward If you would do what Launder If I would take my Oath that this James Ansell was a Perjured Rogue L. H. Stew. Did all they make you this promise Launder Yes my Lords Mr. Fotey It was a Consult together about taking off the Evidence Sir Will Jones My Lords we have done with our Witnesses if my Lord Stafford please to conclude we are ready to do so too L. Stafford What should I conclude about those Witnesses you have now brought in Sir W. Jones Your Lordship may please to conclude your Evidence we are ready to conclude on our part L. Stafford These new Witnesses must I say what I can say against them presently I cannot do it I know very few of them L. H. Steward Have you any Witnesses here my Lord L. Stafford I cannot possibly have any For I did not know nor guess these people would be brought against me They are persons I know nothing of Ansell I have seen four or five times I may have seen the rest but I do not know them to be able to give an accompt of them L. H. Stew. If you have any Witnesses here to support the credit of your own Witnesses that have been impeached you may call them L. Stafford I have none my Lords L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship recapitulate the material parts of your Defence that the Process may be closed L. Stafford I am very unready for it my Lords Let me ask Mr. VVhitby a Question if I must have no more time Mr. Whitby stood up L. H. Stew. There he is what would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I do not know the Gentleman Mr. VVhitby Nor I your Lordship Lord Stafford I ask him upon the Oath he hath taken I know he will speak truth whether he did not some years ago tell my Lord Aston that is dead this Lord's Father That Dugdale was a Knave and persuaded him to turn him away I say not it is true but I have heard so and desired him to tell his Son so that he might quit himself of him L. H. Steward What say you Mr. VVhitby Mr. VVhitby My Lords about three or four years ago my Lord Aston that is dead I believe it may be two years last April sent for me to dine with him and when I came thither he told me says he Mr. VVhitby I have sent to you to acquaint you with a thing but I do not believe it before I tell it you What is it said I said he Stephen Dugdale hath acquainted me that you have employed persons upon the Water to destroy my Water said I my Lord I never endeavoured it he said he did believe me then I told my Lord said I Mr. Dugdale is a dishonour to the Family upon this accompt because many times people come for money and he will not let them have it
Oats as to the General Matters which he evidenceth of the Plot. What now doth my Lord object against Dr. Oats He call'd no Witnesses against him but only an Honourable Earl of this House I think I may name him the Earl of Berkely And that which his Lordship was pleased to testifie against him was Object That being examined at the House of Lords after he had given a long Evidence against many persons he was asked this Question whether there were any more Persons of Quality he could speak against or could accuse and he said no. Answ First your Lordships will be pleased to observe that this was after he had accused my Lord Stafford my Lord was secured in the Tower long before that upon Dr. Oats his Testimony and so he could not exclude this Lord. But that which it is brought for I suppose is to make him a person of no Credit For after he had said this he proceeded to an Accusation of the Queen My Lords I humbly conceive this may receive a very fair Answer For First my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories for I think the Matter was before you all or at leastwise before some of your Lordships that the Accusation which Dr. Oats made of the Queen was not positive nor of his own certain knowledge but Words which he heard spoken in a Room in which he was not himself but coming in afterwards he saw the Queen was there So it was not positive but circumstantial proof and questionable whether what he testified would amount to the proof of one Witness And I must observe in the second place it might not be so clear to Dr. Oats whether the Queen were a Person capable of an Accusation so as to be proceeded criminally against the King and the Queen are to some purposes but one Person in Law 'T is true some Queens have been tryed for Treason but whether Dr. Oats understood that She might be brought to a Tryal may be a Question But that which I rely upon as an Answer and which I desire may be considered is that Dr. Oats had given an Accompt of a great many persons and a great many things he had sworn against several persons some of which were executed some to be tryed and his Narrative against them and of the whole Plot consisted of a great number of particulars Here is a Question comes to the Doctor on a sudden Have you any more to say or can you speak against any other 'T is possible a man that had said so much and of so many might not upon an instant recollect whether he had said all or against all that he could say Nay ' tit easily to be imagined he could not on a sudden comprehend all he had said or could say Therefore that the Answer of a man to such a Question put suddenly to him having so much in his mind and having said so much should be taken so very strictly and to hold him as perjured because he did not at that instant time remember this particular of the Queen I think is a severe Construction His Lordship is pleased further to object against Dr. Oats that he is of no Credit why Because he went to be of the Romish Religion and so was of that Religion which is Idolatry I suppose his Lordship will not call that Religion Idolatry at another time and in another place but it serves his Lordship upon this particular Occasion to call it so but suppose Doctor Oats did out of Levity or for want of being well grounded in his own turn to another Religion he is not the first man that hath done so There have been Men of great Fame in our Church and of great Learning too that have changed their Religion more than once I think he that knew that Famous Man Mr. Chillingworth could not but know he was first a Protestant and afterwards a Papist and afterwards a Protestant again So that unless my Lord could accuse the Doctor of some great Crime or Immorality it will be hard that the matter of changing his Religion should hurt his Testimony I am sure it was happy for us he did change without that we had not had the first knowledge of the Plot nor of many particulars which he could not come to know but by occasion of that Change My Lord was pleased to object that the Doctor was a man subject to Passion and he brought in the Lieutenant of the Tower to speak of some hot Words that passed between them My Lords I will allow the Doctor to be a Man of Passion Nay if my Lord please a Man that is not of the deepest reach but your Lordships will observe that Passionate Men are not often malicious and that a Man who is not of a deep Judgment could never have contrived and invented a Narrative consisting of so many particulars and they so coherent if they were false And if his Narrative be not true he must be indued with more Subtilty and wicked Policy than upon Tryal we can find in him So that what my Lord hath objected as to his Infirmities is no diminution to the truth of what he says but rather a Confirmation of it My Lords The last Witness whom my Lord endeavoured to impeach is Mr. Turbervill and against him my Lord thinks he hath a great advantage But my Lords by that time I have re-minded your Lordships of what hath been already said and what was before proved in Answer to my Lord's Objections against him Mr. Turbervill will stand as clear in this Court as any of the former Witnesses Your Lordships will be pleased to take Notice That Mr. Turbervill was at the beginning when he came to the House of Commons a little uncertain as to matter of Time For when he had made in his Affidavit the times to be 73 and 76 he craved leave to alter it to 72 and 75. Surely my Lords this will be far from being any Imputation to Mr. Turbervill because First he gives the Reason how he came afterwards to understand the Time bettter by viewing his Papers and Letters he likewise gives you an Account and so did Sir William Poultney when he did this the next Morning before any Man in the World had questioned him upon it So that it shews the Man's Care and Conscience both when he is so careful even in matters of the smallest Moment to set things right There is no Man that knows the Practice of the Court of Chancery but knows that for a Man to mend his Answer after it is sworn in a point of Time or other Circumstance is no disparagement to him Nay to do it before the other Party did except or take notice of it is no Objection but rather a Reputation to him And your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that one of the times rectified is of 7 or 8 years the other of 4 years standing And I do not think the worse of a Witness that is not positive
THE TRYAL OF WILLIAM VISCOUNT STAFFORD FOR HIGH TREASON In Conspiring the Death of the KING The Extirpation of the PROTESTANT RELIGION The Subversion of the GOVERNMENT and Introduction of POPERY into this Realm Upon an IMPEACHMENT BY THE Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled In the Name of Themselves and of All the COMMONS OF ENGLAND Begun in Westminster-Hall the 30. day of November 1680. and continued until the 7. of December following on which day Judgment of High Treason was given upon him With the Manner of his Execution the 29. of the same Month. Dublin Reprinted by Jos Ray at College-Green and are to be sold by S. Helsham Job North Jos Howes and the rest of the Booksellers of Dublin 1681. The TRYAL of William Viscount Stafford Begun in Westminster-Hall November 30. 1680. The First Day WIlliam Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis having been formerly impeached in the House of Lords of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences by the House of Commons in the Name of Themselves and of all the Commons of England And the House of Commons having sent a Message to the Lords to acquaint them with the Resolution of that House to proceed to the Tryal of those Lords then in the Tower and forthwith to begin with the said Viscount Stafford and to desire their Lordships to appoint a convenient day for the Tryal of the said Viscount Stafford their Lordships did thereupon appoint the 30. day of November 1680. for his Trial And a place in Westminster-Hall having been for that purpose erected the same was as followeth viz. Therein were both Seats and Wool-packs correspondent in all points to those in the House of Lords as also a State placed at the upper end thereof with a Cabinet for the King and whom His Majesty should think fit to attend him there on the right hand the State and the like on the left hand for the Queen and her Followers As also Galleries over head for Ambassadors and others And to the end that the Commons might be fitted with Seats upon this great occasion there were erected for them on each side divers Benches on several degrees extending to the utmost Walls of the Hall At the lower end the Bar whereunto the Prisoners were to be brought being placed on the right hand thereof was a place raised about five Foot wherein the Witnesses were to stand and on the left hand a convenient Room for those particular Members of the House of Commons which were to manage the Evidence And the Right Honourable Heneage Lord Finch Baron of Daventry Lord High Chancellor of England being by His Majesties Special Letters Patent bearing date the 30. of November 1680. Constituted Lord High Steward for that present occasion upon Tuesday the said 30. of November the Lord High Steward was honorably attended from his House in Queen-street by all the Judges of His Majesties Courts in Westminster-Hall in their Robes as also by Garter Principal King of Arms in His Majesties Coat of Arms and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod unto whom His Majesty had the day before delivered the White Wand to be carried before his Lordship and about nine of the clock in the morning set forwards in his Coach towards Westminster sitting at the hinder end thereof Garter and the Gentleman who bore the Great Seal sitting both uncovered at the other end one of the Setjeants at Arms with his Mace being placed on the right side the Coach and the Usher of the Black Rod carrying the VVhite VVand on the left side the Judges and his Lordships Gentlemen in several Coaches following after Being thus come to the Stairs-foot ascending to the House of Peers the Judges went up two and two together the Juniors first next the Lord High Steward's Gentlemen after them the Serjeant at Arms with his Mace and the Seal bearer and lastly the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod bearing the VVhite VVand Garter principal King of Arms going on his right hand Then his Lordship alone his Train born by one of his Gentlemen in this manner entring the House of Peers he found all the Lords in their Scarlet Robes also the Bishops in their Rochets and took his place upon the uppermost Woolsack This done and Prayers ended his Commission for Lord High Steward was read And then the Bishops receded and the Lords Adjourned themselves into the new erected a Court in VVestminster-Hall All things being thus in readiness and a large Door-place broken through the upper end of VVestminster-Hall into that Room which was heretofore the Court of VVards Their Lordships passed from their House first into the Painted Chamber then through that called the Court of Requests Thence turning on the left hand into that called the Court of VVards then entred at the Door so broke down as aforesaid into VVestminster Hall and passed through a long Gallery placed between the King's Bench and Chancery Courts into this New erected Court in VVestminster-Hall and proceeded after this manner viz. First the Assistants to the Clerk of the Parliament Then the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery and Clerk of the Parliament after them the Masters in Chancery two and two and the King's Attorney General alone Then the Judges of all Courts in VVestminster-Hall by two and two Next to them Noblemens Eldest Sons After them Four Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces Next the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. Then all the Noble Men according to their respective Degrees the Juniors first viz. Barons Viscounts Earls Great Officer viz. Lord Chamberlain of the Houshould Marquesses Dukes Great Officers Lord Privy Seal Great Officers Lord President of the Council Then Four more Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces After them the Gentleman carrying the Great Seal Then one of His Majesties Gentlemen Ushers daily-waiters carrying the White Wand Garter Principal King of Arms going on his right Hand Then the Lord High Steward alone having his Train born and after him his Highness Rupert Duke of Cumberland a Prince of the Blood This done and the whole House of Peers having taken their Places according to their Degrees the Commons being also Seated on each side and the Managers in the Room appointed for them the Commons being all bare The Lord High Steward after obeysance made towards the State took his place upon the uppermost Wool-sack and thereupon receiving the VVhite VVand from Garter and the Gentleman Usher upon their Knees delivered it to the Usher of the Black Rod who held it during the time of Sitting there Having so done his Lordship said Cryer make Proclamation of Silence Then the Cryer a Serjeant at Arms made Proclamation thus All manner of Persons are straitly commanded to keep Silence upon pain of Imprisonment God save the King Lord High Steward Make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring the Prisoner to the Bar. Cryer Oyes Oyes Oyes Lieutenant
of the Tower of London bring forth thy Prisoner William Viscount Stafford upon pain and peril shall fall thereon God save the King Whereupon the Lieutenant of the Tower brought the Prisoner to the Bar. Usher of the Black Rod. My Lord Stafford must kneel which he did Lord high Steward Rise my Lord. Then he Arose and stood at the Bar and the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth My Lord Viscount Stafford THE Commons of England Assembled in Parliament have Impeach'd your Lordship of High Treason and you are brought this Day to the Bar to be Tryed upon that Impeachment You are not Try'd upon the Indictment of Treason found by the Grand Jury tho there be that too in the Case But you are Prosecuted and Pursued by the Loud and Dreadsul Complaints of the Commons and are to be Try'd upon the Presentment which hath been made by the Grand Inquest of the whole Nation In this so Great and Weighty Cause you are to be Judg'd by the whole Body of the House of Peers The Highest and the Noblest Court in This or perhaps in any other part of the Christian World Here you may be sure no False Weights or Measures ever will or can be found Here the Ballance will be exactly kept and all the Grains of Allowance which your Case will bear will certainly be put into the Scales But as it is impossible for my Lords to Condemn the Innocent so 't is equally Impossible that They should clear the Guilty If therefore you have been Agitated by a Restless Zeal to Promote that which you call the Catholick Cause If this Zeal have Engaged you in such Deep and Black Designs as you are Charged with and this Charge shall be fully Prov'd Then you must Expect to Reap what you have Sown for every Work must and ought to Receive the Wages that are due to it Hear therefore with Patience what shall be said against you for you shall have full Time and Scope to Answer it Aud when you come to make your Defence you shall have a very fair and equal Hearing In the mean time the best Entrance upon this Service will be to begin with Reading of the Charge Lord High Steward My Lord if your Lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand your Lordship may have a Chair to ease your self whilst the Charge is Reading and a Chair was brought accordingly and his Lordship sate thereon Clerk of the Parliament Read the Charge Articles of Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford and Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis now Prisoners in the Tower of London 1. THat for many years now last past there hath been contrived and carried on by Papists a Trayterous and execrable Conspiracy and Plot within this Kingdom of England and other places to Alter Change and Subvert the Ancient Government and Laws of this Kingdom and Nation and to Suppress the True Religion therein Established and to Extirpate and Destroy the Professors thereof which said Plot and Conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers Places and by several ways and means and by a great number of Persons of several Qualities and Degrees who Acted therein and intended thereby to Execute and Accomplish the aforesaid Wicked and Traiterous Designs and Purposes That the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis together with Philip Howard commonly called Cardinal of Norfolk Thomas White alias Whitebread commonly called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Richard Strange lately called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Vincent commonly called Provincial of the Dominicans in England James Corker commonly called President of the Benedictines Sir John Warner alias Clare Baronet William Harcourt John Kenis Nicholas Blundel Poole Edward Mico Thomas Bedingfield alias Benefield Basil Langworth Charles Peters Richard Peters John Conyers Sir George Wakeman Thomas Fenwick Dominick Kelly Fitzgerald Evers Sir Thomas Preston William Lovel Jesuits Lord Baltamore John Carrel John Townely Richard Langhorn William Fogarty Thomas Penny Matthew Medbourn Edward Coleman William Ireland John Grove Thomas Pickering John Smith and divers other Jesuits Priests Fryers and other Persons as false Traytors to his Majesty and this Kingdom within the time aforesaid have Traiterously Consulted Contrived and Acted to and for the accomplishing of the said wicked pernitious and Traiterous Designs and for that end did most wickedly and Traiterously agree Conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murder his Sacred Majesty and to deprive him of his Royal State Crown and Dignity and by malicious and advised speaking writing and otherwise declared such their Purposes and Intentions And also to subject this Kingdom and Nation to the Pope and to his Tyrannical Government And to seize and share amongst themselves the Estates and Inheritances of his Majesties Protestant Subjects And to Erect and Restore Abbeys Monasteries and other Convents and Societies which have been long since by the Laws of this Kingdom suppressed for their Superstition and Idolatry and to deliver up and restore to them the Lands and Possessions now vested in his Majesty and his Subjects by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm And also to Found and Erect new Monasteries and Convents and to remove and deprive all Protestant Bishops and other Ecclesiastical persons from their Offices Benefices and Preferments And by this means to destroy his Majesties Person extirpate the Protestant Religion overthrow the Rights Liberties and Properties of all his Majesties good Subjects Subvert the lawful Government of this Kingdom and subject the same to the Tyranny of the See of Rome 3. That the said Conspirators and their Complices and Confederates Traiterously had and held several Meetings Assemblies and Consultations wherein it was Contrived and Designed among them what means should be used and what Persons and Instruments should be Employed to Murder his Majesty And did then and there resolve to effect it by Poisoning Shooting Stabbing or some such like ways and means and offered Rewards and Promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to Windsor and other places where his Majesty did reside to murder and destroy his Majesty which said persons or some of them accepted such Rewards and undertook the perpetrating thereof and did actually go to the said Places for that end and purpose 4. That the said Conspirators the better to compass their Trayterous Designs have Consulted to Raise and have procured and raised Men Money Horses Arms and Ammunition and also have made Application to and Treated and Corresponded with the Pope his Cardinals Nuncioes and Agents and with other Forreign Ministers and Persons to raise and obtain Supplies of Men Money Arms and Ammunition therewith to make levy and raise War Rebellion and Tumults within this Kingdom and to Invade the same with
Forreign Forces and to surprize seize and destroy His Majesties Navy Forts Magazines and places of strength within this Kingdom whereupon the Calamities of War Murders of Innocent Subjects Men Women and Children Burnings Rapines Devastations and other dreadful Miseries and Mischiefs must inevitably have ensued to the ruine and destruction of this Nation 5. And the said Conspirators have procured and accepted and delivered out several Instruments Commissions and Powers made and granted by or under the Pope or other Vnlawful and Vsurped Authority to raise and dispose of Men Moneys Arms and other things necessary for their wicked and traiterous Designs and namely a Commission for the said Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour to be Lord Chancellor of England another Commission to the said William Earl of Powis to be Lord Treasurer of England another Commission to the said John Lord Bellasis to be General of the Army to be raised another Commission to the said William Lord Petre to be Lieutenant General of the same Army and a Power for the said William Viscount Stafford to be Paymaster of the Army 6. That in order to encourage themselves in Prosecuting their said wicked Plots Conspiracies and Treasons and to hide and hinder the Discovery of the same and to secure themselves from Justice and Punishment the Conspirators aforesaid their Complices and Confederates have used many wicked and diabolical Practices viz. They did cause their Priests to Administer to the said Conspirators an Oath of Secrecy together with their Sacrament and also did cause their said Priests upon Confessions to give their Absolutions upon Condition that they should conceal the said Conspiracy And when about the Month of September last Sir Edmundbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace had according to the Duty of his Oath and Office taken several Examinations Informations concerning the said Conspiracy and Plot the said Conspirators or some of them by Advice Assent Counsel and Instigation of the rest did incite and procure divers Persons to lie in wait and pursue the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey divers days with intent to Murder him which at last was perpetrated and effected by them for which said horrid Crimes and Offences Robert Green Henry Berry and Lawrence Hill have since been Attainted and Dominick Kelly and Girald and others are fled for the same After which Murder and before the Body was found or the Murder known to any but the Complices therein the said Persons falsly gave out that he was alive and privately Married And after the Body found dispersed a false and malitious Report That he had Murdered himself Which said Murther was committed with design to stifle and suppress the Evidence he had taken and had knowledge of and discourage and deter Magistrates and Others from Acting in further Discovery of the said Conspiracy and Plot For which end also the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey while he was alive was by them their Complices and Favourers threatned and discouraged in his proceedings about the same 7. And of their further Malice they have wickedly contrived by many false Suggestions to lay the Imputation and Guilt of the aforesaid Horrid and Detestable Crimes upon the Protestants that so thereby they might escape the Punishments they have justly deserved and expose the Protestants to great Scandal and subject them to Persecution and Oppression in all Kingdoms and Countries where the Romish Religion is received and professed All which Treasons Crimes and Offences above mentioned were Contrived Committed Perpetrated Acted and done by the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and other the Conspirators aforesaid against our Sovereign Lord the KING His Crown and Dignity and against the Laws and Sta tutes of this Kingdom Of all which Treasons Crimes and Offences the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament Assembled do in the Name of themselves and of all the Commons of England Impeach the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And the said Commons by protestation saving to themselves the liberty of exhibiting at any time hereafter any other Accusations or Impeachments against the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And also of replying to the Answers which they and every of them shall make to the Premises or any of them or to any other Accusation or Impeachment which shall be by them Exhibited as the cause according to Course and Proceedings of Parliament shall require do pray that the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them be put to Answer all and every the Premises And that such Proceedings Examinations Trials and Judgments may be upon them and every of them had and used as shall be agreeable to Lâ—v and Justice and Course of Parliament The Humble Answer of William Viscount of Stafford now Prisoner in His Majesties Tower of London to the Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors exhibited against him and others to the Right Honorable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament by the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled in the name of themselves and of the Commons of England THe said Viscount saving to himself all advantage and benefit of Exceptions to the generality incertainty and insufficiency of the said Impeachment most humbly beseeching their Lordships thereof to take due notice and thereunto at all times to have a just regard He answereth and saith That he is not Guilty of all or any of the Offences charged against him by the said Impeachment and for his Tryal humbly and willingly putteth himself upon his Peers no ways doubting but that by the Grace of God and their Lordships impartial Justice he shall make his Innocence appear All which he most humbly submitteth unto their Lordships further Consideration Stafford Lord High Steward Gentlemen of the House of Commons be pleased to proceed Then Mr. Serjeant Maynard one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began as followeth My Lords MAy it please your Lordships By the Command of the House of Commons who have imposed upon Us this Task we are here to Prosecute this great Charge against the Prisoner the Lord at the Bar. My Lords There are two Parts that are in this great Charge there is a General which is the Subversion of the whole Nation the King Himself to be Murdered the Protestant Religion to be Suppressed War to be introduced and those other things that are expressed in the Articles This General is charged in particular upon this Lord And my Lords it was in consideration how far it was fit to meddle with this General at this particular Tryal For if this Lord be guilty of such Crimes it will
gave us intelligence of several passages that happened in Court how the Duke and the Queen and the chief of the Nobility were of their side how they carried matters several times the ways my Lord Clifford did use and Sir William Godolphin to effect the work and that they did not question but they should get my Lord Treasurer Danby on their side too This was in Coleman's Letters and he had so much allowance for his Intelligence These Letters of his I read several times in the Colledge My Lords afterwards when I came from Rome I saw Abbot Montague again and he said he was very glad to see me and that I was a Priest well but said I what am I the better where is the Employment you promised me when I should come into England He told me I should have it very soon and he was very glad that I had not made my self a Jesuit and he recommended me to Dr. Goffe Confessor to the Queen Mother who said he would do any thing in the world for me and he did not doubt but he should get a preferment for me which Dr. Goffe is now living Truly when I came into England I found all the Popish Clergy of England that I discoursed with of the same opinion that they did not doubt but the Romish Religion would soon come in And besides in the North there was gathering of Money in which I was ordered to be one of the chief men but I was against it I told them I would do nothing in it I thought it was illegal to send any Money beyond Sea they told me it was charity only to repair the College at Doway I told them it was strange that there should be so much Money raised only to repair one College which would serve three or four Colleges and I perswaded Mr. Jenison and all other persons I had to do with not to meddle with it As to this raising of the Money I conceive it may be inferr'd it was for some other private business and I believe was for the carrying on the design As for the Gentleman at the Bar my Lord Stafford I know nothing of my own particular knowledge but only this Therewas one Thomas Smith Sir Edward Smith's Brother that lived at a place not far off the place where I lived who was one that contributed in paying the Money that was then Collecting he was the man that writ a Letter up to my Lord Stafford to complain of two or three Justices of the Peace that were active against Popery upon which there was one that was turned out that I think is now of the Honourable House of Commons Mr. Treby Name him Mr. Smith Sir Henry Calverley The other was not turned out So I asked Smith when I was lately in the Country about it for I heard a rumor that there was a Letter of this Mr. Smiths found in my Lord Staffords Chamber and I was told it by a Parliament Man one Collonel Tempest So said I to him now you will be concerned in the Plot. No said he I care not for that Letter it will signifie nothing for my Lord won't keep by him any thing of any moment I asked him what he knew about my Lord he told me he writ another Letter to my Lord to know whether he would make a conveyance of his Estate away and whether he apprehended they were in danger And he told me his Lordships answer was that several did so but he would not for he expected some sudden change or alteration I asked him what change or alteration he understood by it Sir said he what can be understood by it but an alteration of the Government and Religion I am sure said he my Lord is so wise a Man that he would not write so without some ground This is all I can say to the Gentleman at the Bar and this is true by the Oath I have taken Mr. Treby My Lords I did observe Mr. Smith in the beginning of his Testimony speaking of the Discourse he had at Rome said they told him there was one in the way I presume 't is not uneasy to conjecture who was that one Lord High Stew. It was surely the King Mr. Treby But we would rather have it explained by him himself Mr. Smith Father Anderton and Father Southwell did say that the King was a good man but he was not for their turn and he was the only man that stood in the way Mr. Treby Did they name the King Mr. Smith Yes it was the common Discourse all over the Country Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Smith in the next place may give an account of the methods they were to use to accomplish this design the firing of the City and the rest Mr. Smith As to the burning of London I heard nothing beyond Seas at all but this it was discoursed that the Papists did it and the like but they denied it and they said it came accidentally in a Bakers House but this I have often heard them say that it was no great matter if it had been all burnt Lord High Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions yet Mr. Treby No we have done with him Lord High Stew. Have you concluded your Evidence Sir Mr. Smith Yes Lord High Stew. My Lord Stafford will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford I desire to know how long ago it was my Lord since he was made a Priest Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships leave no man is bound to answer a Question whereby he shall accuse himself therefore under favour the Question is somewhat harsh and we demand your Judgment in it Lord High Stew. What is the Question your Lordship would have asked him L. Stafford I will not ask it since 't is an offence but did not he say he said Mass pray how long ago was that Lord High Stew. I will ask him a Question Are not you a Protestant Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. How long have you been so Mr. Smith I have been a Protestant near upon two Years Lord High Stew. How long ago before were you perverted Mr. Smith Some six or seven Years Lord High Stew. That is nine Years That was I suppose about 71. Mr. Smith I was always bred a Protestant and was so abroad till I went towards Rome Lord High Stew. It is not criminal to have been a Priest if he have conformed L. Stafford I have no more to say to him Lord High Stew. Have you any more Questions to ask him L. Stafford No I never saw him before he may be as honest a Gentleman for ought I know as any one here Mr. Treby Then if your Lordship have no more Questions to ask him he may withdraw My Lords The next Witness we produce is to the general still and that is Mr. Stephen Dugdale Lord Stafford Is he only to speak to the general or to me Mr. Treby To the general we shall tell your Lordship
when we come to the particulars Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships favour we have opened our Case first that we would go on with the general while we are upon that head we will only call those that speak to the general but it may happen that one Witness may speak to both but we shall divide his Testimony when we come to observe upon it Mr. Treby My Lords I take leave to acquaint your Lordships that Mr. Dugdale hath but a low voice and your Lordships will not hear him without a Command of Silence which was done by Proclamation and Mr. Dugdale sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale take notice We call you now only to the general part of the Plot what Discourses you have heard from Priests in general concerning any part of the Plot. And you are not to give your particular Evidence against this Noble Lord my Lord Stafford till we call you thereunto Lord High Stew. What say you Sir Mr. Dugdale About fifteen or sixteen Years I have been acquainted that there was a Design carrying on for the bringing in the Romish Religion I have at several times by the means of my Ghostly Father that was Mr. Evers been acquainted that there were several Lords and several Priests in several places in England that were to carry it on that is they were to have Mony and Arms ready for those that wanted against the death of the King I have seen several Letters which have come from Paris Rome and St. Omers all relating to this to incourage Mr. Evers and that he should go on to incourage the rest that were ingaged For that purpose I read some of them and intercepted them because they were all directed to me Mr. Evers hath sent me upon Messages sometimes by Letters and sometimes by word of mouth and all tended for the introducing of their Religion that all should be ready with Money and Arms against the Kings Death For I did hear nothing till of late about the killing of the King In particular there came one Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford to shew that things went on well beyond Sea and hoped they did so here I saw another time some Letters which were also transmitted to my hands by a Messenger that came from Boscobel which did come from Paris and so to St. Omers from whence they came to Harcourt and Harcourt had delivered the Letters to have the opinion of some Lords All which contained advice which they had received from Paris which they counted extraordinary good The purport of these Letters were to shew there was no way could be more likely to do their Work than if any sudden death should happen to the King then to throw it upon the Presbyterians who had killed the old King and were likeliest to be thought to have done this and so they might easily get the Protestants those of the Church of England to join with the Papists against the Presbyterians who would by that become odious and so should weaken the party the more easily to accomplish their design I have of late several times been in company with Priests and other Gentlemen in the Country when they have had Consultations both for the introducing their own Religion aud taking away the Kings life which they did always intend to be about November December or January 78. It was late in the Year but all that Year 78. this was their Consultation I have been sent to the Jesuits some of them particularly to Mr. Vavasor and Mr. Gavan for some Moneys for there was a general Collection and there was the sum of five hundred pounds at one time which I received and gave to Mr. Evers and he returned it to London for the carrying on this design and for discharging an account of Arms and things received from beyond Sea And it was agreed that my Lord Aston Sir James Symons and others should go in October 1678. to dispose of the Arms which they had so received some here and some beyond Sea to the value I heard say of 30000. Moreover I did hear that they were to have men raised there as well as here So I have heard from Mr. Evers and Mr. Gavan and others and I have been also by when it hath been discoursed that the King of France was acquainted with all these Designs and that he would furnish us with men and should not be wanting with all other aid and assistance if there should be any alteration if the King should die or be taken away or to that purpose I have been several times put upon to make Foot-Races to draw people together that they might the better have Discourses together without suspicion I was likewise put in trust by the Jesuits all the while the Plot was carrying on and particularly for two years all the Letters relating to the Plot came to my hand some of which I opened and some I kept in my own hands and particularly I had one that came to my hands which was about the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey for when I carried it to Mr. Evers he said There was one of our Enemies taken out of the way and it was contained in the Letter This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched which by the date of it was the 12. of October 1678. I told him that that would prove a discouragement to us and would be the ruine of all the Design he said not so it would rather prove otherwise for he was one that was active in punishing lewd and debauched persons and it would rather be put upon them than us as done out of Revenge Mr. Treby Pray Sir speak the particular time when that Letter came into Staffordshire Mr. Dugdale The 14. of October 1678. which was Monday Mr. Treby The date of it pray tell us Mr. Dugdale The 12. of October 1678. Mr. Treby The very night that it was done Mr. Dugdale Likewise when I did hear there was like to be an alteration in the Government and having such fair promises I was incouraged to it and was very willing to contribute to the Design and I did then make over an Estate which I had of four hundred pound value for that purpose and for the praying for my Soul And when my Lord Aston and I should come to Account as there was money over and above due to me I did likewise promise because I saw money would be wanting I would give them a hundred pound more There were several other Gentlemen as Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons my Lord Aston Mr. Draycott Mr. Howard and Mr. Gerard who did to my knowledge contribute towards the carrying on of this Charge for defraying of Money and raising Arms and paying for them And I have seen Letters from beyond Sea that have been to Mr. Evers that all things have been ready as to the Arms and there only wanted Orders how they should be disposed of and I have been several times brought to the Oath of Secrecy for fear I
knowledge Sir John Trevor Then the next Witness we desire may be called is Mr. Bernard Dennis Mr. Serj. Maynard This Witness we call now is to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said that he was at Validolid and other places in Spain he will be short Lord High Steward Call you Oats again Sir Franc. Winn No my Lord We call Dennis to confirm what Dr. Oats hath said He hath given your Lordship an account that he was in Spain we now produce one that saw him when he was there and so confirms the Evidence given by him Then Mr. Dennis was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dennis Do you give their Lordships an Account of your Discoursing with Dr. Oats in Spain or any where else abroad and where L. H. Steward Stay a little Do you know Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward How long have you known him Mr. Dennis I knew him in the year 77. L. H. Steward Where Mr. Dennis At Validolid L. H. Steward Did you see him there was he a Student there Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. Was he known by the name of Oats Mr. Dennis Yes my Lord he was Sir Franc. Winn. My Lord We desire he may tell his knowledge of Mr. Oats what conversation he had with him in Spain Mr. Dennis My Lords I was in Spain in the City of Victoria and leaving the City of Victoria in the month of June I took my course to Madrid and passing through the City of Validolid going into the Convent of the Dominicans there came an Irishman a Priest of Ireland out of the City to seo me and there he told me there was a Student of the Jesuits by name Mr. Oats an Englishman and I understanding this went into the Colledge of the Jesuits to see Mr. Oats and there had conversation with Mr. Oats and in the conversation I had with him there he told me that he was a Vicar in Kent and that he was Chaplain to a great Nobleman in England by name Howard and that he went out of England by the consent of the Jesuits in England being converted by them to the Roman Catholick Faith and that his going into Spain was to fit himself for the Society of the Jesuits and understanding my resolution was to go to Madrid he did desire me to carry a Letter to the Archbishop of Tune one James Lench an Irishman who lived at Madrid and further he lent me four pieces of Eight to defray my Journey to Madrid and desired me to pay the money to the Procurator of the Jesuits at Madrid and in carrying this Letter to the Archbishop when I came there I got a Dominican Fryer of Ireland by name Humphry Delphin to go with me and see the Archbishop at his lodging and going in I delivered him the Letter in the presence of the Dominican and he perused it in my presence and in the presence of a Priest that waited upon him and finishing the Contents of the Letter as I suppose with a smiling Countenance he turned about and said Sirs the Contents of this Letter is that Mr. Oats is desirous to receive the Order of Priesthood from me or at my hands and if it be so it will be much in our way and this man will be a fit man for our purpose for said he further Dr Oliver Plunket Primate of Ireland is resolved this year or with the next Convenience to bring in a French Power into Ireland and thereby to support the Roman Catholicks in England and Ireland and if it please God I my self without any delay will go into Ireland to assist that pious Work All this Discourse between us and the Archbishop and between Oats and me was in July 77. And there I did speak and converse with Mr. Oats All this I can testifie for truth on the behalf of Mr. Oats who was then a Student in the Colledge of Validolid and had no other name nor title Mr. Foley I desire himself may tell your Lordships what Religion he is of Lord High Steward What Religion are you of Mr. Dennis I am a Dominican Fryer my Lord. Lord High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis My Lords I am Lord High Steward At this time Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard He hath a Pardon my Lords Mr. Treby This hath been controverted my Lords whether Mr. Oats ever was in Spain we desire to make it out plain to the world for the Confirmation of his Evidence Therefore we ask him again Do you know the person of Mr. Oats Mr. Dennis Yes I do Mr. Treby Is this person that gave Evidence last before you the same person you saw at Validolid Mr. Dennis Yes it is Mr. Sacheverel My Lords we desire to ask of him why he had the four pieces of Eight of Mr. Oats Lord High Steward Why had you that money of Oats Mr. Dennis For to defray my Journey to Madrid Lord High Stew. Was that all you had Mr. Dennis Yes my Lords Mr. Sacheverel We pray he may be asked how he came to be so needy Mr. Dennis My Lords I was not altogether needy but it is very certain Religious persons especially of my Order cannot carry any money about them but what is requisite for their Journey and that which may be removed from place to place Sir John Trevor I desire to ask him did he see any more money that Dr. Oats had Mr. Dennis I did see Dr. Oats in his Chamber in the Colledge at Validolid when he delivered me the four pieces of Eight to draw out a Drawer of a Table in his Chamber and out of the Drawer he pulled a Bag of money which was a very considerable Sum of money and I am certain he did not want money there then Mr. Treby My Lords I think we have done with him if my Lord please to ask him any Question he may Lord Stafford But only one Question for I never saw the man in my life I desire he may be asked whether he be still of the Romish Religion Sir John Trevor My Lords We have not yet done with him the Question we would ask him is this whether he hath heard of any money that was gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Lord High Stew. The Question asked of you have you heard of any money gathered in Ireland for the support of this Plot Mr. Dennis I have both heard and seen of it Lord High Steward When and where Mr. Dennis My Lords in the year 68. I entred into the Order of the Dominicans in Ireland and in the same year there arrived at Dublin a Franciscan Fryer Brother to the late Earl of Carlingford and arriving there he made several Collectors for the levying a competent sum of money out of every Convent and Religious House My Lords the Collectors were by name John Reynolds alias Landy and John Berne and arriving at the County of Sligoe in the month of May. Lord High Stew. What year Mr. Dennis 68. And
discovered and that the greatest Papists the greatest Catholicks in England were in the Design That the Queen and the Duke were in it and that several Lords by name my Lord Bellasis my Lord Powis my Lord Arundel of Wardour and others I believe my Lord Stafford was named but I cannot be positive in that At that time my Lords I did wish I had had a Commission in the new raised Levies that were Mustered on Hounslowe-Heath he told me he would procure me a Commission from the Duke of York and that there was a new Army to be raised to bring in the Catholick Religion but he did say he would tell me more particulars after my receiving the Sacrament of Secresie and I did understand by him that that Commission was not to be sent till the taking off the King was effected but being I was surpâ—ised at it he would not tell me the whole matter but he desired me to come and receive the Sacrament at Sir Philip Tyrwhytts in Blomesbury and then he would acquaint me with the whole Affair My Lords being in Berkshire about the Month of December 78 at Madam Halls in Shinefield Parish one Mr. Cuffil a Jesuit came into our Company It was about the Tryal of Coleman and Mr. Cuffil did then say That he thought Mr. Coleman was infatuated upon the Discovery of the Plâ—t to give notice to Mr. Harcourt Mr. Ireland and Mr. Fenwick and the other Jesuits to burn or secure their Papers and yet not to secure his own My Sister Hall was present at this Discourse and Mr. Cuffil did then further say that Bellarmine did draw a Sentence out of the Scripture to favour the Popes Authority of Excommunicating Depriving and Deposing Temporal Princes and the saying was this Quòd Papa habeat eandem Potestatem super Reges quam Jehoiada habuit super Athaliam And that there were other corroborating Testimonies among the Fathers for it Mr. Treby My Lords we desire to ask him whether ever he heard of Mr. Oats being in the Plot or being thought Trust-worthy among them Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I did L. H. Stew. When did you hear it and of whom Mr. Jenison Of my Brother Thomas Jenison the Jesuit L. H. Stew. When did he tell you so Mr. Jenison About the latter end of July 78. when there was a Discourse of a Design and that the greatest Papists were in it he said Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them was in that Design I answered I did wonder that he would trust a reconciled Enemy he answered That being once reconciled they were more Zealous and Trusty I submitted to his Opinion and instanced in Dr. Godwyn and Dr. Bayley that were Protestants and afterwards came over to the Church of Rome Mr. Treby We have done with him my Lord. L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford L. Staff No my Lord. Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I would only observe the time when he says his Brother told him of the Design that it was about the time of the Mustering of the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath and that he was then told Mr. Oats was in the Plot I only observe it now for the end of the Case in point of time L. H. Stew. He says it was in July Mr. Jenison It was two Months after the Mustering of the Forces about the latter end of July L. H. Stew. Before the Discovery Mr. Jenison Yes L. H. Stew. Did you know Oats at that time Mr. Jenison No my Lords I was not acquainted with him Sir John Trevor Did you not see him then Mr. Jenison Yes I saw him at Irelands Chamber Sir John Trevor When was that Mr. Jenison The latter end of April or the beginning of May. L. H. Stew. You say you did not know him in July How then can you say you saw him before Mr. Jenison I did not know him I only saw him come into Irelands Chamber and whisper for sometime two or three minutes and then they told me that that was Mr. Oats a Parson newly come over to them a brisk jolly man and worthy my acquaintance L. H. Stew. Is this the same man you saw there Mr. Jenison My Lords I can't remember his face for he was gone out when I was told of him L. H. Stew. Why you know Mr. Oats now Mr. Jenison Yes I do L. H. Steward Do you know him to be the same man that you saw then Mr. Jenison I can't tell that Sir John Trevor My Lords he says Mr. Oats only came in for three or four minutes and his back was towards him and his Brother told him when he was gone who it was Mr. Jenison I only knew his Name from my Brother Mr. Treby And I presume your Lordships will observe this was at the very time of the Jesuits Consult Sir John Trevor We desire this Gentleman may tell your Lordships who his Brother is and what Profession he is of Mr. Jenison My Brother was a Jesuit brought up at St. Omers L. H. Steward Your Brother is dead and died in Newgate Mr. Jenison Yes he did so L. H. Steward Pray recollect your self again When was it that you saw the man they called Oats at the Jesuits Chamber Mr. Jenison My Lords It was in the year 78 the latter end of April or the beginning of May. And I will tell you why I apprehend it to be that time My Brother being a Priest lived with Sir Phillip Tyrwhitt in Lincolnshire and in that year in Lent he came to Town with my Lady and that Family and he and I used to Dine together at the Fish Ordinary at Pedleys And about three weeks or a month after that time when he came to Town I was at Mr. Irelands Chamber and there was a Gentleman whom they told me was Oats L. H. Stew This you say was the latter end of April or beginning of May 78 for the time is material upon your Oath you say it Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords I do L. H. Stew. You say it was at Ireland's Chamber Mr. Jenison Yes my Lords Sir Fr. Win. My Lords will you give us leave to ask him one short Question because some of the Gentlemen doubt of it we would ask it again what his Brother was whether he was a Jesuit or no Mr. Jenison I have heard him own it my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom do you call next Gentlemen Mr. Treby If it please your Lordships we shall in the next place produce our Evidences that are matters of Record and we desire your Lordships advice and direction how we are to minister the same whether your Lordships will have them all read 〈…〉 of them and let them be left with your Lordships L. 〈…〉 〈…〉 Records are they Mr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are the Records of the Attainder of Coleman Ireland and the other Conspirators L. H. Stew. The Fact is so notorious that they were Attainted and Executed That the reading of a word will serve the turn Sir
the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
Blood is so great a Crime and I know every man is careful of giving his Voice in the Case of Blood I should be very cautious my self and if I were a Judge I would rather save twenty Guilty than condemn one Innocent I bless God I have not the least desire of the Death of any man and would not for all the world have the innocent Blood of all the word lye upon me I beg your Lordships pardon that I have troubled you thus long I shall now as well as I can apply my self to my particular Defence I do my Lords before I can go on to it desire I may have such Depositions as have been taken against me and the liberty to look on your Journal Book when I have occasion I do particularly desire the Depositions of Oats upon which I was committed by my Lord Chief Justice the two Depositions of Stephen Dugdale taken at Stafford before two Justices of the Peace Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon I desire the Depositions taken before I think it was Mr. Warcup and Sir William Poultney or some other two Justices which was made by Turbervile and then I shall compare their Testimonies together And I hope shall give you a clear account that they are perjured persons How without these to go on to my just Defence I cannot well tell Lord High Steward What do you say to it Gentlemen you hear what my Lord prays Sir Franc. Winnington The Witnesse are here and have been heard viva voce As we cannot use any of the Depositions of which he speaks so no more can they be used by him Lord High Steward If I understand my Lord aright this is the thing he desires says he You have brought Witnesses against me viva voce they have been examined here and they have been examined elsewhere and their Depositions are upon Record I desire to confront what they have said here with what they have said contrary in other places Mr. Serj. Maynard If there be any thing expressed by my Lord wherein they have contradicted themselves and produce that Deposition he may do that but to desire to have all the Depositions that have been made by our Witnesses is a strange request When there is occasion to use them upon any particular point he may produce them if he can Lord High Steward Can you object why my Lord should not have Copies of any thing that is upon the Journal and Depositions that are sworn before a Magistrate which may be of use to him Sir William Jones My Lords We do not object against it but my Lords I think it is out of time of to desire it What was sworn and is entred in your Lordships Journal was sworn above two years since My Lord or any man else might repair to them they are matters of Record and for ought we know were never denyed to any especially if they desired it in the House but after two years time and after three weeks time given to prepare for this Tryal when my Lord could not but know what Witnesses would be examined before your Lordships for him to come now and desire such and such Depositions may be produced which if by Law he might be allowed to do he might have done before is to no other purpose under favour but to gain time and to cause our Evidence to be forgotten And therefore we must humbly pray it may not be admitted My Lords I think it is an unusual thing My Lords the Judges are neer your Lordships I suppose they will inform your Lordships If a man be tryed at the Assizes for him to desire a Coppy of the Informations remaining in Court by which he may except against the Witnesses is what the Court does not use to grant But if your Lordships proceedings vary from the common proceedings of other Courts then I resort to what I said before Whether your Lordships will think this a proper time when he might have had it in the Parliament that was first Dissolved and then in the Parliament that was last Dissolved Now to desire those Copies at this time is to put off the Cause for that which perhaps he cannot be furnished with in a day or two Sir Fr. VVin. I would add but one word if your Lordships please to give me leave My Lords you have the Learned Judges near you who will inform you Whether ever when a man was accused of a Capital Offence and the Evidence against him had been fully heard by the Court and by himself he was admitted to require from the Prosecutors the Copies of Examinations formerly taken before other Persons Does my Lord intend to have time to peruse those Examinations and to have the Copies of them that he may consult in private with his Counsel to find out Exceptions and with his Witnesses to make them good My Lords I must say that in my short Experience and I have attended a considerable time upon the greatest Court for Trial of Offenders I never heard such a thing asked by a Prisoner either at the Bar of the Kings Bench or at the Assizes I speak with all the tenderness imaginable because we are in a matter of Blood and God-forbid but the Lord at the Bar should have true and equal Justice done him But if I take my Lord right this seems but an Artifice to delay the Trial of which it is our duty to be very cautious Indeed I have seen the Judges upon trial of a Criminal call for the Depositions or Informations from the Clerk or the Justice of the Peace who took them and caused them to be read but for a Prisoner to call for Examinations at the Bar from the Prosecutors Et ex Debita Justitia to demand them is a thing which as it never has been so I think will not be admitted at this time especially when we are now almost at the end of the Cause and with all Modesty and Submission to your Lordships I look upon it as a very strange and unreasonable Demand L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford What is the reason your Lordship had not all this while Copies of the Journal which is that you now ask L. Stafford I shall not undertake that I am able to give your Lordships a reason for it because I think wherein I have been mistaken as to point of Time your Lordships will not tie me up to that But this Gentleman that spoke last is not acquainted with me and does not know me for I have no desire to go back or to put off this Trial But if it cannot be done to Day I am as guilty to Morrow as I am to Day and I desire no more than what he says hath been done in the like Cases I do desire my Lord the Informations and Depositions of Dugdale Oates and Turbervile may be produced and read and I will make Observations upon them in my Defence I desire those Affidavits may be brought L. H. Stew. Affidavits taken When and where
that you were much spent in Discourse and Tired with what already you have done My Lords are extreamly willing to give your Lordship all the Favour and Accommodation possible for the Recollecting your self therefore my Lords will not now put you upon it to go on to make your Defence but will give you time till to Morrow L. Stafford I humbly give your Lordships thanks for your kindness and Favour to me but here I profess and call Almighty God to witness rather than I would have it thought I am willing to put it off I would have sunk down Dead at the Bar. But my Lords there was another Demand that I made Your Lordships say I shall have Copies of all the Journals and that you cannot help me to the Affidavit of Turbervile I submit to it without saying one word more but I desire that I may have brought hither to Morrow the Journals and other Papers in the Lords House but I desire also the two Affidavits of Dugdale taken the one the 24. the other the 29. of December following which Depositions were taken before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon in Stafford Town when Dugdale was in Prison L. H. Stew. Look you my Lord This is all under the same Rule What Evidence soever there is before the Court of Peers that you shall have whatsoever Evidence is not in that Court you ought to come provided of the Court is not to stay nor to help you to Evidence L. Staff My Lord I beg your pardon Dugdale made an Affidavit then and says the clean contrary now I desire nothing but Justice and I am sure I shall have all Justice from your Lordships L. H. Stew. Produce it and alledge what you will for your self it shall be heard L. Staff How then shall I be able to make my Defence if I have not those Papers which I humbly concieve by the Law ought to be brought These Gentlemen of the House of Commons say That I could not have Turbervile's Affidavit because it was in the House and they could not give it without consent of the House but this was examined before a Justice of Peace and returned to the Council Sure I shall have that I was examined by my Lord of Essex and my Lord of Bridgewater upon that Affidavit twice I think therefore that is material and necessary and I know your Lordships would not have me come to defend my self without Weapons L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford I do beseech your Lordship to be a little better informed in your own Business You have leave to make use of the Journal and all Papers that are entred there the Clerks say Dugdale's Oath is entred there L. Stafford Is the 24. of December there Clerk It is there L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord do not put the Court upon Interrogatories but come provided as well as you can L. Stafford If it be entred on the Journal Book I desire not the Original I am very well satisfied L. H. Stew. Will you be ready to go on to morrow my Lord L. Stafford I will withall my heart L. H. Stew. 'T is too late Gentlemen to go on to Night we must Adjourn till to Morrow Lord Stafford My Lords I had so much to write last Night that I had very little sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. My Lord I am not able to hear you I take as much pains to come near you as I can L. Stafford I had a great deal to write last Night I say and I want some sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. Will you be ready by Ten a Clock to Morrow L. Stafford I will be ready by Ten. L. H. Stew. I will move my Lords when they are withdrawn to Adjourn till Ten to Morrow But my Lord Stafford I do not know how your Lordship is provided or how you look after your own Business If you have not had Copies of the Journal all this while 't is you are in the fault A great deal of it is in Print you may send your Solicitor to the Clerk of the Parliament and take Copies of what you have need of I give you notice of it that if you come unprovided you may know it is your own fault L. Stafford I do acknowledge I have Copies of the Journal Book I think of all but I do not find any thing of Dugdale's second Deposition there L. H. Stew. Here is that of the 24. of December that you ask after send your Solicitor and then you shall have a Copy out of the Journal of it L. Stafford I assure your Lordship I will be ready to morrow if I can get those Copies Lord High Steward My Lords will give you as much Ease and all the Accommodations that are fit L. Stafford Then to morrow I will be ready by Ten a Clock if your Lordships please only I would desire your Lordships to take notice that these Gentlemen of the House of Commons do acknowledge that Turbervile swore one day to one year and the next day to another L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford you say you can be ready to morâ—ow at Ten a Clock Are you sure you can be ready then L. Stafford I say my Lords this I shall not be so ready as I shall be next day but I assure your Lordships I will rather sink down in the place where I am if you think fit than put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. Look you Gentlemen of the House of Commons in a Case of this consequence and of this Vital Importance to a Man as this is where is the inconvenience if there should be a days respite and the Court should Adjourn till Friday if my Lords be moved in it I make no direction but what inconvenience will be in it Will it not be every way as well Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships does not expect from us to give our consent to put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. I ask only what inconvenience it is Sir Will. Jones Your Lordships are the Judges and will do as you find it reasonable but this I say it is very unusual and scarce to be Presidented that when the Prosecutors have given an Evidence the Prisoner should have time a further considerable time to give his Answer to it the Prisoner knows before hand the general Scope and Drift of the Evidence therefore for him to have time till to morrow is a favour but to have more than that even a whole day to intervene is very unusual L. H. Stew. If that be all and the matter depend upon what is usual I do venture with my Lords leave to inform you that my Lord of Strafford had two days time after the Prosecution to give his Answer to what was said against him Sir William Jones That was an Evidence upon Twenty Eight Articles this but upon Two Heads and that was after a long Examination of many days L. Stafford My Lords
I had prepared my self for my Tryal as well as I could and had written down a few things that I intended to say and I profess before God as I am a Man and as I am a Christian of all I intended to say I have in a manner made use of very few words but as to what I had to say upon the Evidence I was forced to lay all aside because I wanted these Papers I have not eaten to day and being forced to lay aside all that I had written I shall need a whole day to write however I submit my self to your Lordships in that matter Lord High Steward My Lord if it be equal to your Lordship and your Lordship will be as ready to morrow as another day this Court will be more ready L. Stafford I assure your Lordships if your Lordships do give me another day I will not debate with my Counsel any one thing upon the Papers I have asked Lord High Steward Pray my Lord will you be pleased to make your demand to my Lords who are your Judges by what time you will be content to be foreclosed Lord Stafford My Lords if you will give me till Friday I shall be ready to give my Evidence and I will bring Witnesses sufficient I hope to prove my Innocency Sir Will. Jones My Lords we do not presume at all to offer our consent to what time the Court shall be Adjourned L. H. Stew. No we do not ask your Consent Sir Will. Jones And I hope your Lordships will not ask the Prisoners consent nor do it by his direction L. H. Stew. De morte hominis non est cunctatio longa Sir Will. Jones But we must desire your Lordships as we are entrusted by the House of Commons to Manage this Tryal to take notice that as we do not expect your Lordships should take the Measures from our Desires much less do we expect you should do it at the only instance of the Prisoner 'T is a great advantage to this Lord to choose his own time when he will please to answer our Evidence We do know very well that in this Case there have been Attempts to Suborn Witnesses and that we shall prove in due time and Attempts to destroy Witnesses too So that there hath been too much time lost already and I think to morrow is a very convenient time for him to make his Answer And I must observe to your Lordships that the Prisoner hath gained his end of not making his Answer this day by raising an Objection which in my Thoughts carried no great weight in it though when it was made your Lordships were pleased to Adjourn upon it But seeing he hath got his Point of deferring the making Answer till to morrow there can be no reason he should gain a further day since the Depositions may be ready by to morrow as well as by the next day And therefore we desire your Lordships will be pleased to go on in the Tryal to morrow L. H. Stew. You shall know their Lordships pleasure when they are withdrawn Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber So the Lords withdrew in their Order and the Commons went back to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock And then the Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock next morning The Third Day Thursday December 2. 1680. AT the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford this is the time appointed to hear what your Lordship hath to say in your Defence and to call your Witnesses Sir Will. Jones My Lords yesterday my Lord Viscount Stafford was pleased to make mention of an Affidavit of Mr. Turbervile taken before two Justices of the Peace wherein he was pleased to say there was some Amendment made and so indeed we did then acknowledg there was But he had a desire to see it notwithstanding our acknowledgment because he was informed that that which Turbervile swore then differed from what Turbervile swore yesterday My Lords at that time we had not the Affidavit nor was it proper for us to produce it for indeed it remained in the Justice of Peace's Hands that took it but now that his Lordship may have full satisfaction and not only his Lordship but also all that are present at this Tryal I do inform his Lordship that the Affidavit is in the hands of a Member of the House of Commons Sir Will. Poulteney by name and if his Lordship please he may have it produceed and make what use he can of it L. H. Stew. 'T is extream Honourably and Worthily done of the House of Commons and my Lord hath no manner of Exception left him L. Stafford My Lords if I shall have occasion to use it I shall call for it but I would first say something to your Lordships My Lords I first give your Lordships thanks for granting me the liberty to come so late to Day I have had a little sleep upon it Your Lordships heard yesterday when you had Dr. Oats at the Bar the first thing that he said as I remember was to desire you would be pleased to leave him to his own method I beg of your Lordships the same favour that I may begin with the one or the other Witnesses or with matter of Law as I please L. H. Steward God forbid but you should take your own Method in your Defence L. Stafford In order to which I desire first Mr. Turbervile may come to the Bar. L. H. Stew. Do you call Turbervile my Lord L. Stafford Yes my Lord I do L. H. Stew. He is there what say you to him L. Stafford My Lords I will ask him but one Question and I hope I shall have occasion to ask him no more When was the last time that he spoke with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervile I think I hear right I do not know My Lord Stafford asks when was the last time you spoke with his Lordship Mr. Turbervile It was in November 1675. L. Stafford I have very much to say against his Evidence but I hope your Lordships will not think him any Evidence against me or any body else But I desire your Judgment whether I be not within the compass of the time limited
by the Statute Mr. Serjeant Maynard Express your self my Lord for we do not understand you L. Stafford I cannot say more than I do the time which the Statute limits is six months but this is five years I desire the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. What Statute my Lord L. Stafford The Statute of the 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. If your Lordship pleases you shall have it read But your Lordship does not observe you are prosecuted and impeached of High Treason upon the Statute of the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. not upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King made for the Safety of the Kings Person which limits the Prosecution of some Offences to be within six months but the Prosecution for Treason may be at any time L. Staff Does your Lordship say it may be at any time Lord High Steward Yes my Lord. L. Stafford This truly does very much surprise me though I am wholly ignorant in matters of Law My Lords I have ever heard that no man can be prosecuted by that Statute but within so many days in one part of it Thirty Days in another six months and I desire your Lordships that the Statute may be read L. H. Stew. If your Lordship please the Statute shall be read if your Lordship desires the Clause of the Statute of the 13 th of this King which limits the Prosecution to be within six months that shall be read But I conceive your Lordship is not accused upon that Statute Lord Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may know whether I am prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King or upon what other Statute L. H. Steward What say the worthy Gentlemen of the House of Commons Is my Lord prosecuted upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King M. Serj. Maynard Not at all my Lord he is not prosecuted upon that Statute but upon the Common Law and the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. which was only Declarative of the Common Law L. Staff This is a point of Law Sir Will. Jones What is the point of Law L. Staff Whether I can be prosecuted after so many days L. H. Steward The Law is very clear If you were prosecuted upon the 13 th of this King for any less Offence than Treason you could not be prosesecuted after six months but if you be prosecuted for Treason either upon the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. or 13. Car. 2 d. there is no time limited and God forbid there should L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships Judgment whether there be not a Statute I think 't is in the Reign of Edward the 6 th that sets the time after which no man shall be prosecuted for any thing of Treason I desire a quarter of an hours time to look into the Statute L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen L. Stafford Pray my Lord let me read the Statute of Edward the 6 th Mr. Serj. Maynard We know not of any such Statute L. Stafford I will not say there is but I will say I cannot read if there be not L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons my Lord does suppose he hath some kind of Objection in Law to make which he cannot make out of himself will it be amiss to let his Counsel make and propose the Question for him Sir Will. Jones My Lords we rather would have my Lord propose the Objection for your Lordships know till a matter of Law is proposed he cannot be admitted to have Counsel If he desires time to recollect himself about the Objection we can't oppose it But we desire that he may propose the Objection and after if it be any doubt in matter of Law your Lordships will assign him Counsel to be heard to speak to it Sir Franc. Winn. This would be a way for a Prisoner to have the Advantage of Counsel when they ought not to be allowed for 't is but to say he hath some doubt which he cannot propose himself and so let in his Counsel to make Objections for him If any Question of Law do arise and that Question is stated you will allow the Prisoner Counsel to argue it but at this rate he may make the like pretences in every part of his Defence and so obtain that Counsel shall manage his whole Defence for him L. H. Stew. I suppose my Lord does intend an Objection as to the time of the Prosecution but he does not know how to make it He supposes he is prosecuted after the six months which he thinks is the time limited for the Prosecution But I pray my Lord Stafford will your Lordship take time to recollect your self and make an Objection fit for Counsel to be heard upon and you shall have it L. Staff I beseech you I may have the Statute-Book with me for I have none my self my Lord. Sir Will. Jones With all our hearts we do not oppose it Then my Lord withdrew into the Room provided for him and within a quarter of an hour returned L. H. Stew. Say my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords I do confess I have been very much mistaken ever since I was first committed to the Tower For I did conceive that they would have proceeded as I thought I was impeached upon the Statute of the 13 th of this King I humbly desire your Lordships Judgment whether I ought or no to be prosecuted upon that Statute L. H. Stew. The Gentlemen have told you already They prosecute you upon the Statute of 25 th of Edward the 3 d. and upon the Common Law L. Staff And they lay aside that Statute L. H. Stew. What Statute L. Staff The 13 th of this King L. H. Stew. What say you Gentlemen once more Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords we have declared already to his Lordship and if my Lord had looked well upon the Articles of Impeachment he could not have put that Question but would have found himself impeached for Treason at the Common Law declared by the 25 th of Edward the 3 d. L. Staff So then they lay that aside of the 13 th of this King Mr. Serj. Maynard We do not mention any Statute but we mention the Crime and that Crime is against the Common Law declared by the Statute to wit The attempting the King's Death and the Subversion of the Government L. Stafford My Lords There is no doubt but the attempting the King's Death is a great and hainous Crime but my Lords I do not find that in the Impeachment there is any Overt Act at all And whether I shall answer to a Treason not proved by any Overt Act sworn by two Witnesses I submit to your Lordships But my Lords because your Lordships and the House of Commons may not think that I propose these things out of a desire of delay if your Lordships please it may be saved to me with all other points of Law I will go on to my proofs L. H. Stew. Yes
all these things shall be saved to you pray let us hear your Evidence L. Staff Since your Lordships hath granted me that be pleased to give me leave to go to my Evidence and I begin with Stephen Dugdale L. H. Stew. Set up Dugdale L. Staff Will your Lordships please I may have Pen Ink and Paper L. H. Stew. By all means my Lord. Which was given him L. Staff May it please your Lordships Stephen Dugdale said if I understand him aright and I ask him again that he knew something of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago L. H. Stew. What say you Mr. Dugdale you hear the Question Did not you say you knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago Mr. Dugdale I did say it and did explain my meaning in it I did say there was among us such a preparation to be made against the King died of Arms and Money that neither should be wanting L. Staff I beseech your Lordship to ask what proportion of Arms was to be provided L. H. Stew. What proportion of Arms was to be provided Mr. Dugdale I never heard it nominated how many absolutely I have heard of some Numbers I heard of late of 30000. that were to be raised beyond Sea what the whole number in England was I have forgot but I think I have heard Mr. Gavan and some of the Priests say That if there was occasion they should have at least 200000 to assist them that was of Men and I suppose they had Arms as well as Men. L. Stafford My Lords If this were true which he says Mr. Gavan said that they were 200000 I desire to know what Men he ment what Religion they must be of Lord High Stew. What Religion were they of that were to come in and help Mr. Dugdale He did not name them at that time but I understood them and so I apprehend the Company would that they were Roman Catholicks L. Stafford 'T is a strange thing that there should be 200000 Catholicks raised when there are not 20â—00 in England that can bear Arms. L. H. Stew. Good my Lord They might come from beyond sea and so they might be so many Roman Catholicks though there were not so many in England Mr. Serj. Maynard And he says not they were Roman Catholicks but he heard so Mr. Treby There might be so many Roman Catholicks and such as should be with them L. Staff Did he hear 15 or 16 Years that I was one to be among them L. H. Stew. Answer that Question Did you hear then that my Lord Stafford was to be one among them Mr. Dugdale I cannot remember it that I did my Lord. L. Stafford Then my Lords I make this use of it He tells you of a Plot 16 Years ago that 200000 Men in Arms were ready against the King's death Mr. Dugdale I did not say so my Lords I desire I may be understood aright L. Stafford You say you heard so Mr. Dugdale I speak as to the number of Men what I heard of late at the Consults and Meetings within these two Years L. Stafford But I speak of 16 Years ago what Number of Men was there to be raised Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was a general word that was amongst us That we must be provided against that time against the Death of the King but no Number at all L. Stafford This my Lords under favour I conceive does not concern me He tells you there was such a thing it might be so or it might not be so I am not concerned in it then 't is out of Doors as to what concerns me I conceive otherwise if the Gentlemen conceive otherwise they will say so Then my Lords the next thing is How long ago it is since I first spake to him about this Plot and I beseech your Lordships he may mention time and place L. H. Stew. You hear the Question Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugdale The first time to my best remembrance L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords let us have no remembrance but let him swear positively L. H. Stew. There is no mortal Man can swear otherwise than according to his Remembrance L. Stafford When a mans Life and Honour and all he hath is at stake and indeed in Consequence every man in England is concerned if they swear not positively but still say as I remember who can make a Defence L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Go on and say as near as you can and be as particular as you can upon your Oath Mr. Dugdale That which I can positively affirm is It was about August or September 78. L. Stafford He said yesterday it was in the latter end of August or the beginning of September which are two Months I beseech you what does he mean by the latter end of August how long before the end of August L. H. Stew. How long was it before the last day in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I will not be positive but it was either in one Month or the other I did not keep a Diary or else I would give your Lordships satisfaction L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships he may positively say whether in August or nor in August or whether in September or not in September Mr. Dugdale I dare not venture to swear that I dare not do it L. Staff Then saving my Exceptions to the incertainty of that afterwards I would ask him what day was it in September that I spoke to him Mr. Dugd. I remember one was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. Staff My Lords he says the 20. or 21. does he say that was the first time he spoke with me Sir Jolm Trevor No no. L. Staff I beseech you my Lords they may not answer the Questions but the Witnesses they cry No no. L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall certainly have an answer to all the Questions you will ask L. Staff But when I ask they answer for them I would know whether that is the Course or no. L. H. Stew. Do not disquite your self for any thing that is said about you you shall have a fair hearing L. Stafford But my Lords I cannot but be disquieted when I hear these learned Gentlemen make Answers to my Questions for the Witnesses L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Was the 20. or the 21. of September you speak of the first time you spoke to my Lord Stafford Mr. Dugdale No my Lords it was not L. Stafford Pray my Lords what day was it then I spoke first to him L. H. Stew. What was the day you first spoke to my Lord Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot remember so well as to tell you L. H. Stew. Do you remember when my Lord came to Tixal Mr. Dugdale I remember one Sunday in particular but I cannot tell what day of the month it was L. H. Stew. Do you remember my Lord Stafford at Tixal in company of my Lord Aston and Father Evers Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember that any
the House and therefore I believe what he has said is true L. Stafford Stephen Dugdale I desire may come again I conceive I have made it plain to your Lordships That Stephen Dugdale did swear that in August there was a Consult at my Lord Aston's where I was and I conceive it is also clear that in August I was not there and then if it were the beginning of September that could not be neither for I came not down to Tixall till the 12. I beseech you to ask him when I offered him the Five Hundred Pounds to kill the King I think he says it was the 20. or 21. Lord High Steward What was the time my Lord offered you the Five hundred pound Mr. Dugdale It was about that time the 20. or 21. of September to my remembrance Lord Stafford He said positively before it was one of those two days I beseech your Lordship to ask him where it was L. H. Steward Where was that offer made Mr. Dugdale In my Lords lodging chamber at Tixall L. Stafford Then one Question more I desire you Lordship to ask him what day the Race was at Etching-Hill between Sir John Crew 's man and Lazinby Mr. Dugd. If it please your Lordship I do conceive it was about that time L. Stafford I pray he may answer positively for if you please I will tell you how it was It is very true the 20. of September this fellow was in my chamber and I shall trouble your Lordships with some little discourse about it and my reasons why First I beseech your Lordships to permit me to let you know that this fellow did serve my Lord Aston in the quality of a Bailiff And I never thought him to be an honest man he was a mean Servant and when the other Servants waited but till the second Course came in he staid till the Coach-man and the Groom went to Dinner and eat with them I profess before God it is true as that the Sun shines I have often and often I cannot tell how many times when I have been very dry at my Lords Table and seen him by me not called for Drink I did detest him as so mean a Knave that I often refused to take Drink at his hands And now for me to offer this fâ—llow five hundred pounds L. H. Steward I think your Lordship says he was Bailiff to my Lord Aston L. Stafford But I knew him to be an errant Knave and a great Gamester at Races and such things L. H. Steward My Lord would you have offered five hundred pounds to an honest man to kill the King Mr. Serj. Maynard You said you never saw him S. Stafford I said I had seen him but now I did not know him by his Peruke Lord High Stew. Did you not know him my Lord L. Stafford No my Lords I profess I did not L. H. Steward Why your Lordship was a going to shew that the Race at Etching-Hill was upon the 2â— of September and your Lordship confesses that he did speak with you on the 20. of September in your chamber and Dugdale says this day was the very offer made him of five hundred pounds to kill the King What do you say Dugdale were you at the Race Mr. Dugd. Yes I was with my Lord at the Race Lord High Stew. Did my Lord speak with you before he went or after Mr. Dugd. Before L. H. Steward That morning in his chamber Mr. Dugd. Yes it was that very morning before he went to the Race L. Stafford I do own my Lord thus far he was in my chamber that morning but my Lord I can prove what I say to you My Lords that 20. of September in the morning I was in my bed and there comes a Servant of mine that hath served twelve or fourteen years and he comes in to me and says Yonder is Stephen Dugdale very desirous to go to this Race it seems he says he went along with me to this Race Mr. Dugdale I say I went either before or after or when you went to the Race for I was with you at the Race L. H. Steward Whether he went with you or no is not the point but whether he was in your chamber at that time Lord Stafford 'T is the point for he said just now he went with me as I apprehended him But I tell your Lordships my Servant came and told me Stephen Dugdale desires that you will ask my Lord Aston leave that he may go before to the Race my Lord is angry with him already for his medling in Races and he dare not ask himself My Lords I was a little concerned in the Race for I had betted some money and I thought with my self should I ask my Lord Aston leave for him to go my Lord will not deny me but perhaps will take it ill to be asked so I was not over willing to do it But I bid my Servant call him in and when he came I asked him some foolish Questions about the Race as who he thought would win and the like but I told him I would get leave of my Lord for him My Lords I did go to my Lord Aston and told him My Lord I am sending my Servant before to the place of the Race but I am afraid he does not well know the way shall Stephen Dugdale go along with him My Lord gave him leave to go but my Lords I dressed me and did not speak one tittle more to this Dugdale but he went away before and I was hardly or but just drest when he was gone L. H. Steward I pray my Lord was your Lordship at no time alone with him in your chamber L. Stafford No never since I was born never in all my life Lord High Steward No my Lord L. Stafford He says my Servants use to come for him I profess it is all false Lord High Steward What say you to that Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugd. My Lords I was in my chamber and busie when my Lord sent for me that morning and it was either by his Page or one that waits on him in his chamber I went to my Lord and the Page was in the chamber and he ordered him to go out L. Stafford I declare and averr to your Lordships he was in the Hall or the next room and desired to come in Lord High Steward Where is the Page L. Stafford This fellow was but a poor Boy found at the Door then he was a Thresher and now a Witness for the King Then my Lord Stafford's man stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness My Name is Furnese Lord High Stew. Do you remember the day of the Race at Etching-Hill Furnese Yes I do my Lords L. H. Stew. Do you remember Dugdale was in your Lords chamber that morning Furnese Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember whether your Lord did bid you go out or no Furnese No he did not L. H. Steward Were you there all the while
he would be revenged of my Lord Stafford did you Sawyer No of my Lord Aston Then another time being at Stafford he owed me Twenty nine Pounds and he was under the Serjeants hands and then he promised me from time to time he would pay me and did not keep his word This was three or four days before he begun to peach He bid me come such a day and he would pay me part of the money and when I came thither he told me it was reported That he should be a Peacher and that there was a speech how that he should have two hundred pounds for informing that there were Fourteen Priests in the Country but he takes a Glass of Drink and Thomas says he by God I wish this may be my Damnation and my Poison if I know of any Plot or any Priests L. H. Steward Was not he a Papist then Sawyer I cannot absolutely tell that whether he was or no. L. H. Steward Do you know one Father Evers Sawyer My Lords I have seen him Lord High Steward Hath he never been at Tixal Sawyer Yes My Lords I have seen him there L. H. Stew. And have not you seen Dugdale in his Company Sawyer Yes I have L. H. Stew. Did not you at Tixal think Dugdale a stout able Fellow Sawyer No he never was accounted to be so L. H. Stew. Then I ask you if you thought him an honest man or a rich man Sawyer No my Lords for I 'll tell you more than that my Lord Aston employed him to be his Bayliff and receive his Rents and to pay Workmen their Wages which he received every Saturday aud my Lord Aston did Accompt with him where he did set his hand to receive the poor Workmens Wages according to their Bills when they had not been paid some of them whole years and half years and quarters And they came and cryed to my Lord that they were not paid and thereupon Dugdale did say That one of them had demanded more of my Lord than was his due for he said he had reckoned such a day with him and paid him so much money which man said he was not that day at Tixal and so he hindred him of part of his money L. H. Stew. Did you ever know that Dugdale did forswear himself Sawyer That I do not know my Lords I did hear he was concern'd in a Race about which there was a Tryal and a Dispute which had won This â— have heard by report Sir Fr. Winn. Speak your own knowledge not Reports L. H. Stew. I ask you do you remember the day when my Lord Stafford came to Tixal Sawyer He came on the 12. day of the month L. H. Stew. What September Sawyer Yes the 12. of September L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the Company of my Lord Stafford while he was at Tixal Sawyer No never in the House but at the Race he hath come into the Parlour Mr. Treby You had Discourse with Dugdale you say he took a Glass and drank and wished it might be his Poyson Was not Father Evers that time at my Lord Aston's Sawyer Not as I know of my Lords Mr. Treby Was he not commonly there Sawyer Yes Mr. Treby If he were Mr. Dugdale must know it and how then could he take a Glass and wish it were Poyson if he knew where any Priest was since it was apparent he knew where that Priest was 'T is most improbable Mr. Dugdale should say thus Sawyer My Lords this was three or four days e're he confessed any thing he knew of his knowledge Mr. Treby What Perswasion of Religion are you Sawyer Of the Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray my Lords ask him one Question he says Dugdale went away from my Lord Aston's was not there a speech of a Plot at that time that was discovered Sawyer Yes that I heard Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question more Was there no discourse of the Death of a Justice of Peace that was said to be killed in London about that time Sawyer To my best remembrance as I heard there was Mr. Dugdale My Lords if your Lordships please that I should call Witnesses to confront him now or afterwards Sir Will. Jones Not now stay till your time comes L. Stafford Then call Philips who stood up L. H. Stew What is your Name Sir Witness Ralph Philips L. H. Stew. What are you a Clergy-man Mr. Philips Yes L. H. Stew. Are you beneficed Mr. Philips Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Where Mr. Philips At Tixal my Lord. L. H. Stew. You are a person that knows the Obligation that lies upon you to give a true Testimony what can you say of Mr. Dugdale Mr. Philips My Lords I have very little to say concerning Stephen Dugdale as to any thing of the Plot but in reference to what he should relate concerning Mr. Sambidge and me in the Narrative which he deposed upon the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman He said then he did receive a Letter concerning the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey which was dated the 12. of October as I remember and that he did communicate the Letter to Mr. Sambidge and me immediately the next Tuesday Whereas I will assure you my Lords I never heard neither by Letter nor word of mouth from him nor any other till it was publickly known L. H. Stew. You did not live in my Lord Aston's house did you Mr. Philips No my Lords Sir Will. Jones We know not what he says we desire to understand what he means L. H. Stew. He takes notice that Dugdale at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman did depose touching a Letter dated the 12. of October which should come down to Tixal intimating the death of Sir Edmnndbury Godfrey and that he did communicate that with the Parson of Tixal and another which Parson comes now to say He did communicate no such a matter to him Sir VVill. Jones We desire to ask him whether he was present at that Tryal and heard him say so Mr. Philips I was not present at the Tryal but if the Narrative of the Tryal be truth he did say so L. H. Stew. So then you only come to disprove what is printed that Dugdale should say Mr. Philips Then I leave it to your Judgments whether what he said in the Narrative of that Tryal do concur with the Truth L. Stafford I desire then to ask him whether Stephen Dugdale did not run away from my Lord Aston's and would have him go to my Lord to own him for his Servant L. H. Steward What do you know of Dugdale's running away Mr. Philips I know nothing at all of that my Lords L. Stafford Whether he did speak to him for his Servant when he was in the Justices hands L. H. Stew. Can you say any thing touching the Credit of Dugdale Mr. Philips I have nothing to say concerning Dugdale's Credit L. H. Stew. Did you know him Mr. Philips Yes ever since I came
to Tixal L. H. Stew. How long is that Mr. Philips About fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Reputation had he in the Country was he looked upon as one that would perjure himself Mr. Philips I never knew any thing of that Lord High Steward Was he thought a stout man Mr. Philips He was in good repute with some and indifferent with others L. H. Stew. Will you call any more Witnesses my Lord L. Stafford I would only ask him one Question Whether he did go to my Lord Aston from Dugdale to know if he would own him for his Servant Lord High Steward What say you Sir did you Mr. Philips Yes my Lords he knows very well I did he did request me to go to him My Lord Aston I was loth to go to because I had no familiarity with him nor Interest in him but he did request and urge me so much that I did go by much motives and persuasions from him and I did speak to my Lord so I told him the Message I had was from Mr. Dugdale who would request of my Lord that he would own him for his Servant for if he did not he knew not what to do with himself but if he did he might be free from the Gaol and from the Oaths and escape the Troubles that were upon him So my Lord replyed to me 'T is his own act and deed and I have nothing to do with him and let the Justices do what they will with him which were Sir Walter Bagott and Mr. Kinnersley Mr. Foley We desire to know whether he heard any discourse about a Plot at that time or no. Mr. Philips Truly my Lords I heard a talk of a Plot but not at that time Mr. Foley My Lords I desire to know if he took Mr. Dugdale for a person that might be in the Plot if there was any such thing Mr. Philips I cannot tell how to answer that 't is an hard Question I am not so intimately acquainted with persons whose secrets are not reposed in me L. Staff The next Witness I desire may be with the leave of the Gentlemen of the House of Commons Sir Walter Bagott I did desire him to be here Sir Will. Jones There he is we do not oppose it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that Sir Walter Bagott be heard in his place Lords Yes Sir Walter Bagott L. H. Stew. What would you ask Sir Walter my Lord L. Staff My Lords I desire to ask Sir Walter Bagott whether he did not apprehend Dugdale and upon what account it was L. H. Stew. Sir Walter Bagott my Lord desires to know of you whether you did apprehend Dugdale and upon what account Sir Walter Bagott My Lords Mr. Dugdale was taken at an unseasonable time of night and brought to me the next morning by the Watch as the other Witnesses have told your Lordships and I took him away to Stafford where there were several other Justices of the Peace there we offered him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he took After the taking of these Oaths we told him that he was a likely man to know something of the Plot and it was a very proper time for him to discover it to us that were Justices he at that time did deny the knowledge of it that is all I can say Lord Stafford I desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he did not go to my Lord Aston to see whether he would own Dugdale as his Servant L. H. Stew. Did you ask my Lord Aston to own him for his Servant Sir Walt. Bag. Yes I did for my Lords house being in the way to Stafford whither I was going I called upon him to know if Mr. Dugdale were his Servant he told me he was no servant of his and he would not receive him Upon which I and another Justice of the Peace that was with me took him to Stafford The occasion of our meeting there was to summon in the Militia upon an Alarm of the Papists being risen in Derbyshire L. Stafford I make this use of it my Lords that my Lord Aston would not receive him and if my Lord Aston had known he had been in the Plot and could have discovered him he would not have disobliged him L. H. Stew. Nay he says more then that which you don't hear he says when they examined him they gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and then told him he would do well to discover his knowledge of the Plot and then he did not own any thing he knew nay he denyed it Mr. Foley Did he deny the knowing of it Sir Walter Bagott Yes he did then Sir Fran. Win. He was not resolved to discover at that time Mr. Serj. Maynard We desire Sir Walter Bagott may be asked whether he examined him upon his Oath or no. Sir Walter Bagott No I did not Mr Serj. Mayn But had they then just given him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy Sir Walter Bagott Yes my Lords we gave him those Oaths and those only L. Stafford Then Mr. Kinnersley if you please who stood up Be pleased to ask this worthy Gentleman what he knows about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. First let us know this Gentleman L. Stafford His name is Kinnersley Mr. Kinnersley What Questions would your Lordship ask me L. Stafford What you know about Dugdales going from my Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Mr. Kinnersley we must know your Christian Name Mr. Kinnersley Thomas L. H. Stew. Do you know Mr. Dugdale Mr. Kinnersley My Lords I was not acquainted with Mr. Dugdale till Sir Brian Broughton Sir Walter Bagott and I and others gave him the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy the latter end of November or the beginning of December I did not take notice exactly of the time L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Kinnersley 78 L. H. Stew. Well Sir go on Mr. Kinnersley When he had taken the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy I asked him if he knew any Treason or Conspiracy against the King telling him it was a seasonable time to declare it He told me he knew of none This is all I know and all the discourse that I remember we had with Mr. Dugdale Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray why did you ask him that Question Mr. Kinnersley The Plot was then newly broken out Mr. Serj. Maynard Why did you ask him so particularly Mr. Treby Why did you think Mr. Dugdale concerned in it Mr. Kinnersley Because we heard he was a Papist and my Lord Aston's Servant L. Staff Then I desire Sir Thomas Whitegrave may be examined Who stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Sir Tho. Whitegrave my Lord L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask Sir Tho. Whitegrave whether he did not examine Dugdale about the Plot and what he said at that time Sir Tho. Whitegrave My Lords I came to Stafford the latter end of November or the beginning of December I am not certain which but I think it
Have you done with Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom will you proceed against next L. Stafford Dr. Oats L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats L. Stafford Only give me leave to say one thing my Lords that you were pleased to say I should have Copies of the two Depositions of the Twenty fourth and Twenty ninth of December And I had one to inquire but can't find that of the Twenty ninth Then Dr. Oats stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Dr. Oats my Lord Lord Stafford This Dr. Oats if your Lordships please I desire may be asked when was the first time he ever saw me in his life L. H. Steward When was the first time Dr Oats you saw my Lord Stafford Dr. Oats My Lords the first time I saw this Gentleman at the Bar was as near as I remember at Mr. Fenwicks L. H. Stew. That was in Drury lane Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When was that Dr. Oats That was as near as I remember in June L. H. Stew. Was it that time the Commission you spoke of was delivered Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you see that Commission Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you read it Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. From whom was it Dr. Oats I cannot be positive as to that but as near as I remember it was signed as the rest was signed L. H. Stew. How was that Dr. Oats Johannes Paulus Oliva L. H. Stew. You read it Dr. Oats Yes I did my Lords L. H. Stew. It was a Commission to be Pay-Master of the Army was it not Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. And it was delivered to my Lord Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. By the Name of Mr. Howard of Effingham Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What says your Lordship to this L. Stafford What is it possible for me to say against this I declare to your Lordships in the presence of God I never saw the man in my life I never went by any Name since I had the Honour of being a Peer but by the name of Stafford I never heard of Mr. Fenwick the Jesuit nor by the name Thompson till this Plot was discovered and he taken This you may believe or not if you please but this is as true as I am alive My Lords I desire I may have out of the Journals the Deposition on which I was committed L. H. Stew. Turn to the Journal L. Stafford It was read as I remember Friday 25. Octob. 78. Then the Clerk turned to the Journal and read Die Veneris 25. die Octobris 1678. THe Lord Viscount Stafford acquainted the House That he was informed that there was a Warrant issued out from the Lord Chief Justice of England to apprehend him which he thought fit to acquaint their Lordships with and submitted himself their Lordships Judgment The Lord Chief Justice being present was commanded to give the House an account of the business who said That last night about nine of the clock he received a Letter from the Speaker of the House of Commons dated from the Speakers Chair to come to the House of Commons about business of great concernment Accordingly he attended the House of Commons where the Speaker told him that the House of Commons had receiv'd Accusations of High Treason against five Lords and some Gentlemen and desired him to issue out his Warrants for their Apprehension The Persons were the Earl of Powis Viscount Stafford the Lord Arundel of Wardour the Lord Petres and the Lord Bellasis And upon this he issued out his Warrants for their Apprehension having taken the Examination of Titus Oats upon Oath That the Earl of Powis and the Lord Arundel were brought to him this morning in custody and he advised them to render themselves to the Gatehouse where now they are Upon this the Examination of Oats was read whereby it did appear That the Lord Viscount Stafford was charged to be in a Conspiracy of Treason against the King The Lord Viscount Stafford denyed the Fact and after this withdrew And after a while the House was informed that his Lordship would render himself to the Lord Chief Justice L. H. Stew. This is all that is in the Journal L. Stafford Then my Lords if your Lordships please to remember all of you that were there that I was accused by Dr. Oats whose Depositions I desire to see taken before my Lord Chief Justice that he had seen Letters of mine written to Fenwick Harcourt and some others three or four Jesuits in which I was consenting to the Plot that I had sent my Son to Lisbon yet I would be as kind to the Jesuits as before though there was some difference between us These Affidavits I desire to see which as I take it were read before your Lordships that day L. H. Stew. The Affidavit was taken by my Lord Chief Justice in the House of Commons where he did attend them upon their Summons I know not if the Original were read in the House of Lords or the Copy but it seems it is not entred into the Lords Journal but your Lordship had an Order to take Copies of all things you would have demanded and if you would not I cannot tell what to say to it L. Stafford Truly I could not take a Copy because I did not know where it was I desire my Lord Chief Justice may be asked where it is that is all I desire and I will then go on L. H. Stew. I think Dr. Oats does say at this time that he had seen Letters of your Lordships offering your Correspondence and Assistance L. Stafford If Dr. Oats will own he said no more than is in that Affidavit I am content Lord High Steward Have you any Copy of your own Examination Doctor Oats Dr. Oats Yes my Lords I think I have it here L. H. Stew. Marry that is very well produce it then Do you oppose it Gentlemen Managers No we agree we desire the Truth may come out Then Dr. Oats looking amongst his Papers drew out one and offered it to the Court. L. H. Stew. Is that a true Copy of your first Examination Dr. Oates My Lords I will not swear it but it was given me for a true Copy L. H. Stew. By whom was it given you Dr. Oates I can't remember now 't is two years ago Sir W. Jones Unless we know whence it comes or what authority it hath we cannot consent it should be read L. H. Steward Had you it from my Lord Cheif Justice or any servant of his Dr. Oates I can't tell whether Sir Charles Harbord gave it me or no. Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Sir Charles Harbord might be of the Committee of Examinations but the Examination for which my Lord asked was not in the Committee nor before the house My Lord chief Justice retired out of the house Virtute Officii took it Now it was very fair in Mr.
Lord Stafford but before he had accused the Queen L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords to mark it and I am very glad of it he said he had no more to accuse in relation to England and yet after that he accused the Queen L. H. Stew. My Lord then the best account of it will be on the Journal the Question and Answer is entred there Die Jovis 31. die Octobr. 1678. Post Meridiem TItus Oats being at the Bar is directed to proceed in giving an Account of the Commissions given to several Lords and other Persons for Offices Civil and Military Upon which he proceeded in a particular Narrative thereof with some Circumstances tending to make out the truth thereof and then was commanded to withdraw but stay without Then upon Consideration had hereof the Lord Chancellor by directions of the House caused him to be called in again and told him that the Lords expect not his entring into particular Circumstances but if there be particular Persons concerned of what Quality soever they be the House expected he should name them but he named none but those he had mentioned in his Narrative nor could name no other Person Lord Stafford Then my Lords he said He knew no Persons more than he he had discovered and after did he not accuse the Queen and several others if he said true then he knew no body more if not he is Forsworn Sir VVill. Jones Pray prove he did Accuse the Queen L. Stafford He did so in the Council and he is clearly Perjured in that and so not to be believed And I say besides after that Dr. Oats had consulted with himself and possibly with some others what his Narrative should be and what he should accuse Persons of and did only accuse me of seeing some Letters signed Stafford and now he comes to give Evidence he knows more of my having a Commission After this rate it may be he may know a great deal more to morrow when he hath invented it And 't is a great sign he did not know of any more if he did know of that for I never had any Correspondence with the Jesuits nor any business transacted with them these twenty four or twenty five years Indeed at Ghent the English Jesuits were desired to do a little thing for me and they refused it me it was to send over a man that was to be a Witness in a Suit I had beyond Sea And I never writ one Letter to a Jesuit since nor he to me that I know of nor never had to do with them that I know of I never heard of Fenwicks Name nor Harcourts till I heard of the Plot nor of Johnson nor Thompson Jesuits and if any can prove it I will acknowledge my self guilty of all that is said against me And for that Dr. Oats at first said He only saw Letters of mine and after comes and accuses me of a Commission I appeal to your Lordships if there can be any truth or belief in him I cannot say more than what I have said already and I do challenge Dr. Oats at the day of Judgment to say if ever he saw me in his life till I was committed or if I did ever go by any Name but that of Stafford I will be content to dye immediately If I had gone by the Name of Howard I need not be ashamed of it for 't is a Name good enough to be owned I know there is a worthy Gentleman that bears the Name of Howard of Effingham but I never did If your Lordships please to let me ask Mr. Dugdale one Question L. H. Stew. Call Dugdale again who appeared What say you to him my Lord L. Stafford I desire to ask Dugdale whether he did not in his Depositions before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon swear that the 20 th of October I offered him 500 l. to kill the King Mr. Dugdale No September L. Stafford Ay September Mr. Dugdale Yes I think I did make that Deposition before Captain Lane I am certain I did that my Lord Stafford the 20 th or 21 th of September offered me 500 l. L. Stafford Then did not he say presently upon this he went to Mr. Evers Chamber L. H. Stew. He says so now Mr. Dugdale My Lords I am not certain it was the same day it was assoon as I could have opportunity it was presently after Lord Stafford Did he not say he told Erers what I said to him and he did not understand the meaning of it Mr. Dugdale I did say so to Mr. Evers I did ask Mr. Evers what my Lord Stafford's meaning was whether his intention was true or no to do as he said and whether my Lord was in that Condition as to be able to perform his promise for I feared payment of the mony and he told me Harcourt and the rest of the Jesuits would furnish it L. H. Steward So he said Yesterday L. Staff Then ask him if he did not say the beginning of September I met him at Tixal and I spake to him about such a business Mr. Dugdale My Lords I did say to the best of my Remembrance it was about that time the latter end of August or the beginning of September I would not be positive nor could not to five days Lord Stafford No I think not to 5000. Then I askt him this Question whether he did not presently upon that when I told him about the Design go to Mr. Evers and ask what it meant L. H. Steward He said so but now he went to Evers and asked what you meant L. Stafford I beseech you I may be understood whether he did not say in the beginning of September which was before the 20. or 21. in the Journal L. H. Stew. Is it in the Journal L. Stafford Yes L. H. Stew. Why then read it Die Sabbati 28. Decembris 1678. The Earl of Essex acquainted the House that he had received an Information out of the Countrey of very great Concernment which was read as followeth Staffordsh December 24th 1678. The Information of Stephen Dugdale Gent. late servant to the Lord Aston of Tixal concerning the Plot against our Soveraign Lord the King as followeth 1. THis Informant saith that presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went beyond the Seas he was told by George Hobson Servant to the said Lord Aston that there was a Design then intended for the Reformation of the Government to the Romish Religion 2. He informeth that in the beginning of September 1678. he met in Tixal nigh the Lord's Gates the Lord Stafford who said to this Informant it was said that they were troubled for that they could no say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there was but a good Success they should enjoy their Religion And upon the 20 th day of September last the said Lord Stafford told this Informant that there was a Design in hand and
if this Informant would undertake the Design he should have a good Reward and make himself famous 3. Upon the aforesaid day immediately after this Informant went into the Chamber of Mr. Francis Urie alias Evers a Jesuit in Tixal-Hall and asked him what the Lord Stafford meant by those words and after he had made him to swear secresie upon his knees he told him he might be a person imployed in the work and have a good Reward that would make him famous and then he told him he must be instrumental with others in taking away the Kings life and that it should be done by shooting or otherwise And that this Informant need not to fear for the Pope had excommunicated the King and that all that were excommunicated by him were Hereticks and they might kill them and be canoniz'd for Saints in so doing 4. The Informant saith that the said Evers and Hobson both said that the Design was as well to kill the Duke of Monmouth as the King 5. That George North Nephew to Pickering and Servant to the Lord Aston lately told this Informant that they had taken his Uncle meaning Pickering and put him into Newgate and thought the King deserved such an execrable death as was intended him because of his Whoring and Debauchery 6. That Mr. Evers said Mr. Bennyfield had a packet of Letters delivered to him from the Post-house which he feared the Lord Treasurer had notice of and therefore he delivered them to the Duke of York and the Duke delivered them to the King and that the King gave them to the Treasurer after he had read them but that the King did not believe them and therefore it was happy or else the Plot had been discovered 7. That he had received many Packets of Letters for Evers some of which this Informant broke up and found them to be and tend to the Establishing of the Romish Religion c. 8. That he had received several Sums of mony himself and knew of divers others that were imployed to put forth mony which was and is for the Jesuits use Stephen Dugdale Taken upon Oath the 24th day of Dcember 1678. before us Tho. Lane J. Vernon L. Stafford My Lords I find by this here that presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went over George Hobson Servant to my Lord Aston told Dugdale there was a Design to Reform the Government c. I beseech your Lordships I may ask him how long after he went over this Discourse was Mr. Dugdale I do not say I knew George Hobson before he came to be a Servant to my Lord Aston which was in the year 78. but that this was only a Discourse to me that the Plot had been so long carrying on L. Stafford He says upon his Oath presently after the Almoner went over he told him so Now the Almoner went over years before that when the Proclamation came out to Banish the Queens Servants for being Papists Mr. Dugdale I heard it there I never knew George Hobson before he came to be Servant to my Lord Aston but I did not tell it as a Discourse at that time or that it was more than what I had from him that there was such a Design so long before Lord Stafford He says presently after the Almoner went over in his Oath which was I think in the year 72. or 73. or rather in the year 75. about the end of the year 74. as I remember and he says presently three years after is that presently E'n now the end of August was the beginning of September and how long that was we can't tell and now three years is presently after Sir W. Jones He is telling of anothers Discourse with him L. H. Stew. My Lord you must observe that Dugdale says that he did hear it from Hobson after he came to my Lord Aston's Service Lord Stafford But he says presently after the Almoner went over and 't is impossible for he did not say it till three years after and so there is no truth in him Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was that Hobson told me that presently after the Almoner Howard went over there was such a Design carrying on L. H. Stew. You distinguish not and therefore don't comprehend 'T is one thing if Dugdale had said that presently after there was such a Design Hobson told him so L. Stafford I beseech you it is said That presently after the Almoner went over Hobson told him so L. H. Steward But it is not that presently after he heard the Discourse but George Hobson told him that presently after the Almoner went over there was such a Design L. Stafford 'T is said he was told presently after Then the Information was read again L. H. Stew. Do you know when Howard the Almoner went over Mr. Dugdale No my Lords but by report I heard when he went But I do not make that part of my Oath for I cannot absolutely remember it Lord. High Steward My Lord you must not make a Strain to to make a mistake Lord Stafford Gods Life is three years a Strain Mr. Dugd. I never did mean so nor never did intend so for I never knew him till he came to my Lord Aston's but he told me then this Discourse L. H. Stew. My Lord this is only a Question of Grammar how it can be construed L. Stafford My Lords I beg your pardon 't is to my little Reason a Question of Sense and it is plain to me it can have no other sense but I submit it to your Lordships whether this be not the true Construction L. H. Steward Go on my Lord with your Evidence notice will be taken of your Objection you shall see what they say to it if they do not give it an Answer it will have its weight Sir William Jones We will give that an Answer in due time L. Stafford Then next he says I talked with him at my Lord Aston's the beginning of September where he met with me at Tixal at the Gate And I said it was sad we could not say our Prayers but in private Truely my Lords I cannot say I did not say this to him but if I did say it I do not remember it or that ever I thought so much for I was so much of a contrary Opinion that I thought those of that Religion said their Prayers too openly and have chid them for it And why should I speak it to him whom I did not know what Religion or what Profession he might be of And presently after I spoke of these things he says he went to know what the Design was and then Mr. Evers told him of the Plot and yet yesterday he said he knew it sixteen years ago How can all this be true And besides it seems I could have no great power with him to persuade him for it seems he mistrusted my ability to pay and he had reason for I should hardly have parted with 500 l. in the Condition I was then in
the least concerned of any I thought and I hoped it would prove so I can take all the Oaths in the world I said no more L. H. Stew. What else do you know Porter Only such things as these he hath often said Earl of Shaftsbury Pray my Lords ask him how came Turbervill to talk of Witnesses about the Plot. L. H. Stew. Upon what occasion came Turbervill to talk of these matters Porter It was only voluntary of himself it was speaking of my Lord Powis and the rest of the Lords in the Tower Earl of Shaftsbury My Lords I mean of his own being a Witness L. H. Stew. How came Turbervill to say he hoped God Almighty would never forsake him so far as to let him swear against innocent Persons he was never called to be a Witness Porter But my Lords some of his Friends did say they were fearful of him in regard he was reduced to poverty His Friends were fearful L. H. Stew. Who were fearful Porter His Brother and Sister Mr. Turbervill and his Wife L. H. Steward Did he take notice to you that they were afraid he would come in Porter Yes Mr. Turbervill did tell me himself that they heard he would come in L. H. Stew. Have you said all you have to say Porter My Lords that is all I have to say L. H. Stew. Then call another my Lord. L. Stafford Where is Mr. Yalden Who stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Yalden L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Witness John L. H. Stew. What is your Profession Yalden A Barrester at Law L. H. Stew. How long have you been called to the Bar Yalden I was called to the Bar last Trinity Term 12 months L. H. Stew. What House are you of Yalden Grays-Inn L. H. Stew. Are you a Practiser Yalden Yes my Lords L. H. Steward What Religion are you of Yalden Of the Church of England L. H. Steward Well what can you say Yalden I am summoned to appear by Order of this House and I desire to know of my Lord what he is pleased to examine me about L. Staff What Mr. Turbervill hath said in his hearing about the Plot. L. H. Stew. What Discourse hath passed between you and Turbervill about the Plot Yalden My Lords in February or March last I was walking in Grays-Inn-Walks with Mr. Turbervill and Mr. Powell and he dined with me a day or two after and there Mr. Turbervill and I were talking of the Distractions of the Times how Trade was ruined how the whole Kingdom was out of order and he was a little touched at some things and cryed out Go Dam me now there is no Trade good but that of a Discoverer but the Devil take the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it L. H. Stew. That is odd that he should say it was a good Trade to be a Discoverer and at the same time say he knew nothing of the Plot. Yalden This I understood to be his meaning he cursed himself and them because he knew nothing of the Plot to discover for he would have got money by it as I understood as well as others Mr. Turbervill My Lords Mr. Yalden did declare yesterday he was summoned in by my Lord Stafford the last night and that he had nothing to say but what was by Hear say Mr. Yalden My Lords I do declare what I say is true and yesterday Mr. Powell gave me a Caution to take heed what I did and swore by God it would else be the worse for me L. H. Steward Who did Yalden Mr. Powell L. H. Steward Who is that Yalden Mr. Turbervill's Friend And I said I do not appear here as a voluntary Evidence but by an Order of the House of Lords I do not know what weight my Evidence may have for I can say nothing but what I heard him say and so perhaps it will be taken but for an Hear-say Mr. Turbervill You said you knew nothing but by Hear-say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No my Lords L. Stafford My Lords I shall not trouble your Lordships with any more Witnesses as to these Points I have here a Copy of the Warrant for the Yaught to go to Diep and if there be any Question whether I did come over from Diep at Christmas 75. if you please the Book may be searched L. H. Stew. My Lord it is all lost for I hear not one word L. Stafford I say my Lords if it be fit to trouble your Lordships with it I can prove that I did come over in the Yaught from Diep at Christmas 75. Here is the Copy of the Warrant for it to go for me And whether you will have it proved that I did come over thence I submit to you L. H. Steward I suppose that is fully proved already that you did come by Diep Managers We do not deny it L. H. Stew. You do not stand upon it Gentlemen do you Managers No no my Lords L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to you my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords when I went from your Lordships Bar last night I had no thoughts of examining any Witnesss but what I have already done But my Lords since I was here there hath something happened about which I desire Dr. Oats may be called again I shall give you the reason why I move it afterwards upon something I heard yesternight L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats again Who appeared and stood up L. H. Steward My Lord what does your Lordship call him for L. Stafford He did say that he being a Minister of the Church of England did seemingly go over to the Church of Rome or some such words I desire he may answer that first L. H. Steward What say you Dr. Oats Yes I did say I did but seemingly go over L. Stafford I desire to know whether he was really a Papist or did but pretend Dr. Oats I did only pretend I was not really one I declare it L. H. Stew. What do you make of that L. Stafford I desire to know how long Dr. Oats was in Spain Dr. Oats My Lords I came into Spain in May and I came home again in November L. H. Steward That is six months L. Stafford He is called Dr. Oats I beseech your Lordships to ask him whether he were a Doctor made at the Universities here or abroad Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please any matter that is before your Lordships I will answer to it but I hope your Lordships will not call me to account for all the Actions of my life whatever Evidence is before your Lordships I will justifie L. H. Stew. The Doctor hath never taken it upon his Oath that he was a Doctor and why do you ask it L. Stafford He is called a Doctor and I would know whether he did never declare upon his Oath that he took the Degree at Salamanca Dr. Oats My Lords I am not ashamed of any thing I
matter mostly arising within my Lord Aston's Family and what Witnesses we shall have from thence your Lordships may easily imagine will not be very favourable to us and if we have not many to this point your Lordships will take into consideration that those who can give the fullest proof here must be those of the Family and the Religion of the Family But my Lords we will call one or two that I believe will give you satisfaction that my Lord the Prisoner was no such stranger to Mr. Dugdale that they have been seen together and alone together and that is the first thing we desire to call Witnesses to Call Mr. Ansell and William Hanson Mr. Hanson was sworn L. H. Steward Where do you live Whose Servant are you Mr. Hanson At Wilnal in Stafford shire L. H. Steward What do you ask him Sir Will. Jones I desire if you be satisfied where he lives that he will tell you whether he hath been at my Lord Aston's and seen my Lord Stafford there L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford at my Lord Aston's Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When Mr. Hanson A little above two years ago L. Stafford Be pleased he may name the time positively Sir Will. Jones My Lord Stafford is not so well versed in prosecutions of this nature as to know that he is not to interrupt us while we are examining our Witnesses L. H. Steward My Lord your Lordship received no interruption nor must give none Sir Will. Jones My Lords we desire this Witness may be asked whether or no he hath seen Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Stafford at any time together L. H. Steward What say you Mr. Hanson Yes my Lords L. H. Steward When and where Mr. Hanson I cannot justly tell the time L. H. Stew. Can you tell the place Mr. Hanson Yes at my Lord Aston's L. H. Stew. Whereabouts Mr. Hanson In my Lord Aston's Parlour L. H. Stew. And were they alone Mr. Hanson Mr. Dugdale fetched me to my Lord Stafford L. H. Stew. And was no body in the Parlour when Dugdale fetched you to my Lord Mr. Hanson No my Lords I think there was not L. Stafford He thinks there was not Mr. Hanson There was not to my best remembrance Sir W. Jones My Lords will you be pleased to ask him the Occasion why Dugdale fetched him to him Mr. Hanson My Lord had a mind to have a Boy L. H. Stew. What was the occasion that Dugdale did come to fetch you to my Lord Stafford in the Parlour Mr. Hanson To bring the Boy my Lords Yong Hawkins Mr. Dugdale fetched me and the Boy to him it was a Boy that my Lord would have to live with him Sir Will. Jones Can you tell what time of the year it was whether Winter or Summer as near as you can L. H. Stew. Aye What time of the year was it Mr. Hanson Indeed my Lords I cannot tell Sir Will. Jones I desire to ask him whether when he went away he left them together L. H. Stew. Did you leave them together Mr. Hanson To my best remembrance my Lords I did The Boy and I went away together and we left them at my Lord Aston's Parlour-door Sir Will. Jones Call James Ansel L. H. Stew. Nay if you have done with him my Lord Stafford may ask him any Questions L. Stafford My Lords I shall tell you how this thing is There was a report that this Hawkins was a very good running Foot-boy and this was spoken of at my Lord Aston s at Dinner or Supper I don't know which nay severall times about that time it was when my Lord of Danby was Treasurer and his Son my Lord Dunblain was much for Foot-matches and I had a minde to have a Foot-boy to make a match with him and I believe Dugdale at Dinner or Supper did say that he was a good running Lad and I might desire to see him and Dugdale did bring him to me I believe into my Lord Aston's Parlour but there was at least six or seven in the Room besides L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford Was this at that time when your Lordship was at Tixal the 12 of September L. Stafford Pray my Lords I desire to ask him that Question I would know what year it was L. H. Stew. He says it was above two years ago L. Stafford I profess I believe it was one or two years before I was taxed with this Plot. I did never think I should be questioned about this or I could easily have brought witnesses that were by at that time It is true he did come to me but pray what time of day was it Mr. Hanson In the morning I think it was L. Stafford I profess to God it was after Supper as I hope to be saved it was as we were going to bed to the best of my remembrance Sir Will. Jones Did you come into the Parlour after Supper Mr. Hanson I am not sure what time it was Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship please to ask him any more Questions if not we will call another James Ansell who was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness James Ansell L. H. Stew. Where do you live Mr. Ansell At Heywood in Staffordshire L. H. Stew. Did you live with my Lord Aston Mr. Ansell I have been at my Lords House at Tixal L. H. Stew. But you are not of the Family Mr. Ansell No. L. H. Stew. How far is Heywood from Tixal Mr. Ansell A Mile L. H. Stew. Have you seen my Lord Stafford at Tixal Mr. Ansell I have seen a man they called my Lord Stafford I did not know him but as they told me L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the company of a man they called my Lord Stafford Mr. Ansell Two years ago I was at Tixal and there I saw one that they said was my Lord Stafford walking with Mr. Dugdale whom I did know L. H. Stew. Where was it Mr. Ansell In the Court at Tiaxl walking together L. H. Stew. Were they alone Was there no body else in company Mr. Ansell None that I saw there might be more company but I saw no more Sir Will. Jones Pray my Lords ask how long ago this was Mr. Ansell About Summer was two years Sir Will. Jones If his Lordship will ask him any Questions now we have done he may otherwise we will call another L. Stafford My Lords I have recollected my self as well as I can in so short a time and all I can say is some of my Servants were by I suppose and I do assure your Lordships the other business was above three years ago so the fellow does not know what he does say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions L. Stafford Pray ask him how long he saw me in the Court with Dugdale L. H. Stew. How long was it Mr. Ansell I cannot tell I did but walk through the Court I came to speak with Mr. Dugdale and he was
with my Lord. L. Stafford Did he hear us discourse or any word we said Mr. Ansell No I did not Sir Will. Jones My Lords if you please before Ansell go away we would ask him a Question to another point and that is For what reason Dugdale was secured whether he went away for Debt or no L. H. Stew. Do you know wherefore Dugdale was secured or why he went from my Lord Astons Mr. Ansell I can't tell why he went away whether for fear of the Plot or no I can't tell Sir VV. Jones What discourse was between you and Dugdale about it Mr. Ansell Where There was a discourse at Stafford when he was there Sir VV. Jones But before he went away Mr. Ansell I came to my Lord Aston's one day and told Mr. Dugdale I heard say he was concerned in the Plot for I told him I was amongst some people and they say you are concerned in the Plot. And this was about a fortnight after the News was hot in our Country L. H. Stew. What said he Mr. Ansell He laughed at it and said God blast him if he knew any thing of it L. Stafford So he denied it then Sir VV. Jones Pray Sir at that time did he say he knew any thing about my Lord Aston and why my Lord Aston did use him ill Then my Lord Stafford objected Mr. Dugdale was too near the VVitness and desired he might go down and it was ordered accordingly Sir Fr. VVin. My Lords we would ask this man what does he know of Dugdale's concealing himself after he had heard of the discourse about the Plot. Mr. Ansell I know not that my Lords he was fearful of coming in company what his discourse was I do not know Sir VV. Jones My Lords now if it please your Lordships we will go to another particular Yor Lordships will please to remember that yesterday there were two Witnesses called by my Lord Stafford that is Sambidge and Philips Sambidge was the old Gentleman that was deaf and a little passionate too because he was once summoned to Litchfield Court Mr. Philips was the Minister of Tixal And both these did testifie That whereas Mr. Dugdale had sworn at a former Tryal that he did give notice before them of the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey upon Monday which as I take it was the 14. of October there was no such notice given in their presence Mr. Dugdale did affirm they were by and that he gave notice before them others This was made use of by my Lord to invalidate the Testimony of Mr. Dugdale that he should go and affirm at a former Tryal that he did give notice of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey within two days after he was killed before any one knew of it and Dugdale must needs know it from the Jesuits and both of these Gentlemen being now in Court do deny that they heard of it at that time My Lords we shall prove to you here that he did give notice of it at that time and that they were both present For Mr. Sambidge it is not so strange he should not observe it he was very deaf and he could hardly hear yesterday and as he was deaf so he was very passionate As for Mr. Philips I cannot say that as to him but perhaps he cannot at that distance of time remember but we will prove by undeniable Witnesses that notice was given that Munday and that these persons were by when it was given Sir Fran. Winn. This Witness we use to another purpose besides this but we will ask him only to this now L. Stafford I desire the Witnesses may stand by themselves L. H. Stew. Let them take care that there be but one Witness at a time and that no body approach them while they are giving their Testimony Sir Will. Jones We did not make the like desire as to my Lords Witnesses L. Stafford In troth you might with all my heart if you would Sir Will. Jones It may be so but we did not fear them so much Swear William Goldsmith which was done Sir Will. Jones I would begin with James Ansell who appeared and stood up again Sir Fr. Winn. If your Lordships please we would ask him what he knows of a discourse about the Justice of Peace's death to tell the time and what it was that was said We only ask general Questions L. H. Stew. What discourse did you hear of the murder of a Justice of Peace and when Mr. Ansell My Lords I heard it at Tixal L. H. Stew. When did you hear it first Mr. Ansell The 14. of October L. H. Steward Who did you hear it from Mr. Ansell From Mr. Dugdale L. H. Stew. The Letter was dated the 12. Where did you hear of it Mr. Ansell It was at one Elds House an Alehouse in Tixal L. H. Steward Where Mr. Ansell At an Alehouse hard by my Lords L. H. Stew. Who was by Mr. Ansell When that was spoken there was I and VVilliam Hanson and Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips L. H. Stew. Did Dugdale speak with them at that time Mr. Ansell Yes he was with them at that time but he spoke with me at the Parlor for he sent for me into the Parlor L. H. Stew. Then at the same time he spake it to you and they were in the House Mr. Ansell Yes he came from them to me into the Parlor and went to them again Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hear him speak to the day of the Month if you please to ask him if he can tell what day of the Week it was Mr. Ansell It was on a Munday L. H. Stew. That is right the Letter was dated on Saturday the 12. of October Sir Fr. Winn. I would ask him whether afterwards he came into the Room where Mr. Philips the Parson was Mr. Ansell Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Was there any discouse after you came in about the Death of â— Justice of Peace Mr. Ansell I cannot tell that L. H. Stew. Will you please to ask him any thing my Lord L. Staff Indeed my Lords he says nothing concerning me therefore I say only this I desire to know if he can tell what time of day it was Mr. Ansell It was the Forenoon Sir W. Jones Then call Will. Hanson again who appeared Sir Fr. Winn. We call him to the same Question Do you declare to my Lords what you know of Mr. Dugdale's acquainting you with the Death of a Justice of Peace and when it was Mr. Hanson I heard Mr. Dugdale say at Old Elds house at Tixal There was a Justice of Peace murdered that lived at Westminster L. H. Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Hanson The day that I went to run the Race the 14. of October Sir Fr. Winn. Can you remember what day of the week it was Mr. Hanson It was Munday L. H. Steward Was it the Forenoon or Afternoon Mr. Hanson The Forenoon L. H. Stew. What Company was in the house when he
Thorne Yes he hath been sued for money and I have been contributory to keep him out of Prison Sir W. Jones I ask you in general is he of a good or bad Reputation Thorne Indifferent Sir Will. Jones 'T is modestly said My Lords your Lordships have heard what kind of Witnesses have been brought against us For two of them you have had particular matters for a third our Witness speaks modestly that he is a man of indifferent Reputation But now my Lords we must prove what endeavours have been used to get other Witnesses against our Witnesses and for that I desire to call one Simon VVright to tell your Lordships what hath been offered him to swear against Dugdale and by whom VVright stood up and was sworn Mr. Foley My Lords we desire this Witness would give your Lordships some account what endeavours have been used by offers of money or otherwise to make him swear against Dugdale and by whom L. H. Stew. Hath any body endeavoured to perswade you to swear against Dugdale VVright Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Tell your whole story who it was and what was offered you VVright The first time I was employed was presently after the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and it was by one Mr. Plessington that was in custody about that matter And he sent me on Sunday morning to the Marquess of VVinchesters to desire him to consider what a charge he lay at And my Lord did send him word he could not expect to be discharged so soon The Tuesday after he was discharged And afterwards coming unto me I told him I was glad he had so good friends to get out so soon He told me were I in the same condition I should have as good or better Whereupon Mr. Plessington and I were as good friends as any about the Town I was his Barber and Barber to Mr. Dugdale and we were all great cronies And Plessington told me if I could find a way to take off his Evidence or destroy him I should have seven hundred pounds I went to inquire out where I might have a security for the Money And Mr. Reeves an Apothecary in Chancery-lane did profer me his Note and so did Mr. Dewy the Scrivener But I did not nor had the Money And several times particularly at the Tryal of Mrs. Price and Mr. Tasborough they would have had me sworn quite blank That he would have hired me to have sworn against them And afterwards they would have had me own I was forsworn and they would get me a Pardon L. H. Stew. What had you sworn VVright What I heard Mrs. Price say at the Horse-shoe in Chancery-lane as to the blasting of Dugdale as may be seen in the Tryal L. H. Stew. Who offered you that Seven hundred pounds VVright My Lord Bellasis's Steward L. H. Stew. What is his Name Wright Plessington Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I think he says he was to swear against Mr. Dugdale I desire he would explain himself more particularly and tell who it was that offered him any money to swear against Dugdale VVright Mr. Plessington my Lords And since the Tryall of Mrs. Price they did persuade me to write a Paper for the blasting the reputation of Dugdale and to shake his credit by it And that they carried to Mr. Drayton and Sir James Symons and they being satisfied would have me write again to those Gentlemen and they framed a Letter for me to write And thereupon Mr. Longmore I know the Gentleman if I see him again told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise and if I would stand by it I should be an happy man L. H. Steward What had you said in that Paper VVright I had said according as they directed me that Mr. Dugdale would have given me money to swear against Sir James Symons and Mr. Gerard. L. H. Steward Did you swear that VVright No I did not but I was to have done it L. H. Steward How came it to pass you did not agree with them VVright My Lords I have had Four pounds in hand and that I had by reason poverty came upon me And my Lord Bellasis's Steward came and lay with me and spent Twenty shillings upon me but finding that I was not absolutely true to them nor like to go through they distrusted me and I borrowed an Horse of Captain Chetwin and got down into the Country where I have been since July last till I was fetch'd up by a Messenger to come and give Evidence for the King And there I received a Letter from my Lord Aston's Agent That if I would call at Stafford and come up with my Lords Witnesses they would bear my charges up to London I have the Letter in my Pocket L. Stafford If it please you he may shew the Letter which he did Clerke This for Simon Wright a Barber at _____ deliver with care Subscribed Your Loving Friend _____ Abnett Symon Wright I Have just now received a Letter from the Lord Stafford wherein my Lord mentioned Wright to be one of his VVitnesses and desired me forthwith to give Wright notice That if possible he should be at London on Saturday night next his Tryal being to be on the Tuesday after therefore if he pleased to come to him he should give him Money to bear his charges up and he should come up with my Lords VVitnesses Abnett This is the substance of the Letter as it was taken Sir W. Jones I presume your Lordships will be pleased to take notice he was intended a Witness for my Lord and it was supposed then that he was able to say something but he was not produced by my Lord yesterday L. Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave as to this Witness I desire if you please I may have time to prove something against this man till to morrow I have enough against him Mr. Serj. Maynard You will find another Witness I suppose by that time L. Stafford No I will not find him I have him already I have enough against this Fellow L. H. Stew. You shall have time to say what you will my Lord. Mr. Serj. Maynard I would my Lord would name his Witness L. Stafford I will name him to you since you ask it 't is Dodd he knows what I mean well enough VVright I don't know him my Lord I 'le assure you Sir VV. Jones My Lords We will go on now to another matter My Lord Stafford was pleased to object That Mr. Dugdale did talk much of Letters and proceedings but was able to shew none of them My Lords we will give an account how that comes about Mr. Dugdale as in part hath been proved already was apprehensive of being accused for the Plot nay I think we shall prove he was afraid he had been in the Proclamation against those Traytors and Jesuits that were fled We shall prove that Mr. Dugdale to secure himself and his then friends for he was not then
about the point of time when Hobson told him of the Design Sir Will. Jones My Lords That will be when we come to make our Observations we shall not answer that by Witnesses when we come to sum up our Evidence I doubt not but we shall give a sufficient Answer to that Objection But to go on with what is to be answered by Testimony your Lordships will be pleased to remember That Turbervill did inform your Lordships That he had some converse with my Lord Stafford at Paris being introduced by some of the Fathers My Lords we shall call a Gentleman that had happened to be there at that time that will tell you though he did not know my Lord Stafford yet he knew that Turbervill did converse much with an English Lord in that place where my Lord does acknowledge his Lodging to be He will give you some further account how Turbervill went to Diep in expectation of my Lord and how he had a Message from the Lord though he did not know my Lord Stafford He will give you a further account how Mr. Turbervill was earnest with him to go to Calice and then told him he might go over with my Lord at that time The use we make of these particulars we will forbear to mention till we sum up our Evidence We desire to examine Mr. Thomas Mort. Who was sworn Sir Will. Jones We desire to ask Mr. Mort whether he knew Mr. Turbervill at Paris and at what time L. H. Steward What say you Sir Mr. Mort. Yes my Lords I knew him it is now five years past since we were in Paris He and I had been intimately acquainted before we lived in the same Family I was several times in company with him and many times in his Brothers company which was a Monk and I heard him say his Brother had an intention he should be of the same Order And some time after that he altered his resolution and designed for England and I had such a design too to go from Paris where I was an Apprentice And being acquainted with him I resolved to go over with him and he told me his Brother the Monk had introduced him into the favour of a Lord as I take it it was my Lord Stafford as well as I can remember And that there was a Vessel to come to Diep a Yaught and we should go thither to go over with my Lord. And Mr. Turbervill told me we must make as much hast as might be for it were better to be there a day or two too soon than too late We went to Diep and when we came there the Vessel was not come And when we had been there a fortnight or thereabouts we were put to a great deal of inconveniency by reason of our long stay there and I think if I mistake not I or some of the Company said Cursed is he that relies or depends on a broken Staff alluding as I believe to my Lord Stafford's Name Mr. Turbervill told me if we did go to Calice we might go over with my Lord but how or by what means he understood the Vessel would be there and my Lord go that way I know not But we did not go thither we had another opportunity there was a small Vessel whether a Fish-Boat or a Coal-Vessel I cannot tell a very little one it was but we took the opportunity and came over in it Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall make use of it in due time we only call him now to prove his converse with a Lord at Paris L. H. Steward Did you ever see Turbervill at a Lords House in Paris Mr. Mort. No my Lords not that I can remember but I think as near as I remember I will not be positive I walked about Luxenburgh House while he went as he said to the place where the Lord lodged I was thereabouts till he came L. Stafford In what Street was it Mr. Mort. Indeed I cannot tell Sir W. Jones This man is very cautious L. H. Steward Can you tell the Lords Name Mr. Mort. I do not remember his Title but I think it was my Lord Stafford Sir William Jones Pray who were you Servant to Who were you bred under Mr. Mort. My Lord Powis I served as Page to him when Mr. Turbervill was Gentleman-Usher to the Young Lady one of his Daughters since married to my Lord Molineux Sir Will. Jones Will my Lord please to ask him any Questions if not we will go on L. Stafford No not at present Sir Will. Jones Well then my Lords we desire to call one Mr. Powell a Gentleman of Grays-Inn to tell you when he first heard Mr. Turbervill speak of this Evidence he hath now given Mr. Powell was sworn Sir W. Jones Pray will you give an account what discourse you had with Mr. Turbervill about the Plot and when Mr. Powell About this time Twelve-month we discoursed about it and he told me that he had much to say in relation to the Plot but truly he did not name any particulars to me at that time Sir Will. Jones Where was this we desire to ask him Mr. Powell It was at the Kings-head Tavern in Holborn Sir William Jones Are you sure it was a year ago Mr. Powel It was about this time Twelve-month Sir Will. Jones What was the reason he did not think fit then to reveal it Did he tell the reason Mr. Powel I think he gave me a reason That he was something cautious because he feared he might disoblige his Brother at that time Sir VV. Jones Did he give you any further reason Mr. Powel I think he said he was afraid he should not have incouragement enough for he said some of the Witnesses had been discouraged and he was afraid he should be so too Sir VV. Jones Now we shall call a few Witnesses to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation which have known him a good while Mr. Hobby L. H. Stew. Was this time that Mr. Powel speaks of that he did discourse with him before or after that of Yalden Sir W. Jones My Lords We do not know of any discourse with Yalden nay we believe none such was This Witness speaks of a Year since L. H. Steward What time does Yalden speake of Sir VVilliam Jones February or March last and this was a year ago L. H. Steward This was then before that certainly Sir VVilliam Jones We desire Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons may be sworn which was done in his place Sir VVilliam Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill Mr. Arnold My Lords I do know him very well and I have known him these two years he came recommended to me from his Grace my Lord Duke of Buckingham My Lords presently after the breaking out of the Plot he was sent down into our Countrey by the Lords of your Lordships House that were of the Committee and a particular recommendation from the Duke of Buckingham to me to give him direction and assistance to find
out a Priest one Charles Prichard and I think also if I mistake not one Morgan my Lord Powis's Priest I spoke with him before he went I sent Letters down with him I spoke with him afterwards he hath been in my family some time he hath behaved himself very well there and in several other sober families nearly related to me I have not heard a better character of any man from all sorts of people than of him in my life Sir VV. Jones Did he tell you any thing of the Plot Sir Mr. Arnold My Lords I did several times find by him that he knew much having conversed both in France and here with Jesuits and Priests I pressed him oftentimes to discover his knowledge and to come in to the Council but he gave me such Answers why he did not that I could not answer Sir VVilliam Jones What were they Sir Pray tell us Mr. Arnold That the Witnesses that were come in were in danger of their Lives that they were discouraged that they were discountenanced and as long as the Duke of York had that power in the Conncil that he had and my Lady Powis's Brother had that power over those Countreys where he lived which his Lordship is often pleased to call his Province he durst not do it for his Life Then Mr Hobby was sworn Sir Will. Jones Do you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Hobby My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill near four years L. H. Steward What account can you give of him Mr. Hobby My Lords my first acquaintance with him was at my Brothers House in Glamorganshire When I came there my Brother shew'd him me and told me he was a very worthy man but his Friends had cast him off because he would not take Orders in the Romish Church He lived at my Brothers above a year and when he came thence my Brother writ a Letter of Recommendation to my Father to receive him there and do him all the kindness he could He came to my Father's and stay'd there near half a year or thereabouts I cannot tell to a Month or so Since I have known him often in this Town and been in his company and I never knew nor heard but that he behaved himself like a worthy honest Gentleman but as to any thing of the Plot I know nothing Sir VV. Jones We ask you not to that Where is Mr. Matthews Then Mr. Matthews a Divine was sworn Sir VV. Jones Mr. Matthews pray tell my Lords Whether you know Mr. Turbervill and how long have you known him Mr. Matthews Yes My Lords I have known Mr. Edward Turbervill for about four years last past L. H. Steward Go on what do you know of him Mr. Matthews My Lords he lived some time in my Neighbourhood I never knew him guilty of any ill action at all but a person of a very fair Reputation He acknowledged himself a Roman Catholick and was pleased to give me the liberty to talk to him I found him inclinable to hearken to me and to those Reasons I offered to him and I found he had a mind to quit that Religion being convinced by the Arguments I gave him and as several times he hath since told me those were some of the great motives of his coming over from the Romish to the Protestant Communion L. H. Stew. What were the Motives Mr. Matthews One was the hazard I told him of in his living in the Roman Communion as to Salvation another was the excellency of the Doctrines of our Church its Principles and Practices L. H. Steward Did he acknowledge to you he knew any thing of the Plot Mr. Matthews No not a syllable of it Sir Will. Jones We don't call him to that purpose Then another Witness was sworn L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness William Seys Sir W. Jones Pray will you acquaint my Lords what you know of Mr. Turbervill Mr. Seys I have been acquainted with him this two or three years and I never knew him guilty of any ill action my life I never heard of any body that could asperse him but he hath behaved himself like a very honest civil Gentleman Sir Will. Jones Where were you acquainted with him Mr. Seys Here in London Then Captain Scudamore stood up again Sir Will. Jones He was sworn before we desire he may speak to Mr. Turbervill's Reputation Capt. Scudamore My Lords I have known Mr. Turbervill for these three quarters of a year I have been acquainted with him in London he hath been much at my House and all that while I saw nothing in him but that he is a very honest Gentleman Sir William Jones My Lords I think we have but one matter more which we should have mentioned before but that our Witness was not come but I hope we shall have the favour of some Honourable Lords that do know the thing and I think there are many more that can prove it My Lord Stafford who is very ancient it may be may not remember matters exactly I blame him not Oblivion is the great infirmity of old age He was pleased to say Yesterday he had so good health that he had not been lame I think he said for these Forty years but at last his Page said for the last Seven years and I shall confirm our proof to that time My Lords I think there are some Honourable Lords here that have seen this Noble Lord that says he was not Lame in so many years very near about the time he was confined and imprisoned go Lame and come Lame to the House and ease himself by holding up his Legg sometimes My Lords I do not say the Circumstance is very material but only to shew my Lord may forget himself which I shall impute to his old Age. L. Stafford I will acknowlede it if your Lordships please I did say I had not been lame with the Gout so long no more I have not I was troubled with the Sciatica many years but 't is above eight or nine years since that and I took so much Opium that that and my going to the Bath cured me I have often come lame to the House out of weariness and old Age but if ever I put my Foot upon a Stool for the Gout or was ever so lame as to put my Foot upon a Cushion to ease it I will admit what he speaks to I 'll acknowledge thus much to save time Sir Will. Jones Seeing my Lord is pleased to go off from it I 'll call no Witnesses to it L. Stafford I go off from nothing I was lame three or four years when the King came in I went to the Bath and afterwards into Germany and what with Opium and the Bath I was cured and I have not been lame these eight or nine years I have not had the Gout in my Foot for these many years and I never was so lame to put my Foot on a stool to my remembrance Sir VVill. Jones
proof of it 't is not to affect me Fifthly There is is one Point of Law more That no man can be condemned for Treason as I conceive by one Witness and there are not two Witnesses to any Point These are the Points of Law I humbly beg your Lordships pardon for the trouble and desire your Opinion in them Sir William Jones My Lords Before we make answer to what my Lord hath said I do humbly desire That for the Objection which he hath made against Mr. Southall proved by a Noble Lord of this House though I must observe it was not of his own knowledge but by Hear-say and that matter of Hear-say contrary to the Act of Oblivion to the end there may no doubt remain of Mr. Southall's Credit that a Noble Lord of this House and a Gentleman of the House of Commons who both know Mr. Southall may be heard to his Reputation Sir Fran. Winn. My Lord Ferrers knew him not himself but my Lord Brook and Mr. Gower will give a better account of him Then the Lord Brook was sworn Lord Brook My Lords What I have to say concerning this Mr. Southall is That he hath been often employed both by my Brother and my Mother and they have so good an Opinion of him that they employ him still and therefore we take him for an honest man and an able man or he would not be so much trusted and employed and I take him to be a very good Churchman for if he was not I would not employ him L. H. Steward An honest man an able and a good Churchman your Lordship says Lord Brook He receives the Sacrament four times a year Sir Will. Jones Then swear Mr. VVilliam Leveson Gower a Member of the House of Commons which was done in his place Mr. L. Gower My Lords I have been near 7 years of Staffordshire but did not know Mr. Southall till this Popish Plot was discovered After that I came acquainted with him being a Justice of the Peace in that County in Court where I found him to be the most zealous Prosecutor of the Papists in that Country no man like him I likewise found several Popish Priests had by his means been apprehended and imprisoned and one of them since convicted who by the way still remains unexecuted in Stafford Goal What Opinion some may have heard or had of him formerly I cannot tell but this I know that he hath more than once come to desire my Assistance that he might prosecute the Papists the most effectual way upon the Statutes made for that purpose and that he did complain to me that he had not met with good usage elsewhere My Lords I take Opinion to be grounded upon Principles and I do observe that those of this Country who do believe this Popish Plot and know Mr. Southall and are principl'd for the Preservation of the King the Protestant Religion and the Government do at this time speak well of him and those who are not so principl'd speak otherwise My Lords I was surpris'd when I heard my Name mention'd upon this occasion I have told your Lordships all the matter of Fact that upon the suddain occurs to me with my own Opinion which I offer with all submission and had I had notice I might possibly have recollected more which I would freely have declared to your Lordships but this is all that I can now say L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I would say one word if you will give me leave I am very ignorant and beg your Lordships pardon for troubling of you I humbly desire to know whether after the Points of Law are argued I may speak something not concerning the Evidence of the Plot but concerning my self Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall not oppose the saying any thing he can for himself but we must conclude and have the last word L. H. Steward My Lord the Gentlemen that are for the House of Commons must conclude My Lords will give you all the favour they can but they must have the last word L. Stafford I do not oppose it L. H. Steward Therefore you will do well to say all you have to say together For the Points of Law my Lords will give no Judgement till the Commons have answered them and they I suppose will first sum up the whole Proofs then you may say what you have to say for they must make an end Gentlemen will you speak first to the Law Sir Will. Jones No my Lords first to the Fact L. H. Steward Go on then Then Sir William Jones One of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began to sum up the same as followeth MAy it please your Lordships We have now done our Evidence as to matter of Fact and that which I have in Charge at this time is to remind your Lordships of our Proofs to answer the Objections that have been made against them and to make some Observations upon the whole My Lords The Members of the House of Commons that were appointed for the Service of the Management of this Tryal those of them I mean who began the first day made a Division of our Evidence into two parts the one that which concerned the Plot in general and the other what related to this Lord in particular My Lords as to the Plot in general we did call six Witnesses I know some of your Lordships have taken Notes and you have their Names they were Smith Dugdale Prance Oats Denis and Jenison My Lords because I will save as much of your time as I can I will not take upon me to repeat what each Witness said as to the Plot in general but when I come to the Evidence which immediately concerns my Lord I must beg your favour that I may be more particular I will say thus much for the Proofs of the Plot in general That there was by those Witnesses so much fully proved that made it most apparent That there was a general Design amongst the Roman Catholicks to introduce their false Religion into this Kingdom That the Jesuits had several Meetings to that end That they endeavoured to do it by several ways by raising of Armes by collecting of Monies and by designing against the Kings Life nay they had so far advanced their Designs and were in so much readiness as they thought it time to appoint Officers not only for their Army but for the Civil Government as if the Work were already accomplished Your Lordships were told by one of the Witnesses of a Lord Chancellor and of a Lord Treasurer Lords now in the Tower yet to be tried and you were told also of Officers for the Military part a General a Lieutenant-General and this Lord at the Bar to be Pay-Master of the Army I shall my Lords desire to take notice to your Lordships That this Design though it was to be finally acted by other Hands yet was it first contrived and afterwards carried on by the Priests and
another Case your Lordships will proceed here only according to your Proofs and your Evidence secundum allegata probata and therefore all we shall say to this is that we hope our Proofs are so clear and evident as will leave no room to your Lordships to believe this Noble Lords Protestations In the next place my Lord is pleased to alledge and withal to lay some weight upon it the voluntary surrendring of himself to Justice and he laid it down as a Rule that as Flight is an argument of Guilt so the Surrendring of a mans self to the Trial of the Law is an argument of Innocency My Lords We admit the Rule generally to be true but in some particular Cases it may be otherwise for a Man that is not very confident of his own Innocency may yet be very confident of the strength of his Party and whether the consideration of the circumstances of Affairs as they then stood and the power and prevalency of the Popish party at that time might not reasonably create such a confidence in this Noble Lord we must leave to your Lordships Judgment My Lords We do conceive that those Persons who contrived Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Murder had so great Confidence in the favour and protection of some of their Party that they thought themselves able to out-face Justice And we verily believe they intended it as an example to deter all Men from medling so much as with the taking an Examination concerning this Horrid Plot. My Lords I desire to be understood aright in this I lay nothing of the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey to the Charge of this Noble Lord I only use it as an Argument of the presumption of the Popish party at that time My Lords In the next place my Lord Stafford did observe from my Lord Coke that in the Tryals of Treasons we ought very much to guide our Judgments by the Nature and Circumstances of the Fact the Concomitants and subsequents as he termed them with Reference to the Person accused whether they were likely to induce or deter him from such an Attempt and here he was pleased to raise some Arguments from the whole course of his Life and did desire your Lordships to consider those Circumstances therein that might make it improbable or impossible that he should commit a Treason of this Nature He desired also your Lordships to remember that he was descended from an Honourable Family and that his Ancestors were very worthy and very deserving Persons and such as had often ventured their Lives in defence of their Country And here he did likewise mention his own Services to the last King and our present Soveraign in the late Wars It is not my part nor will I derogate any thing from the Merits of this Noble Lord much less from the Honour of his Family but in Answer to this we shall desire your Lordships to consider that this Noble Lord however he is pleased to disown it at present is notoriously known to be a Roman Catholick as they call themselves and such we conceive we have sufficiently proved him to be in the course of our Evidence And as there is nothing in the World so much as a misguided Conscience that can ingage the best of Men into the worst of Actions so we think the Principles of that Religion are such as are more likely to pervert Men from their Duty and Allegiance than any other Religion or Perswasion whatsoever And if the Zeal of this Noble Lord did engage him to endeavour the establishment of that Religion in this Kingdom we may easily believe that his Reason did suggest to him the means by which it must be effected which could be no other but Blood and Confusion My Lords The last thing I shall take notice of is what my Lord Stafford was pleased to say in General as to the Doctrine of Killing and Deposing Princes which his Lordship was pleased to call a private Opinion and not the Doctrine of the Church of Rome But by the way my Lords give me leave to observe that this Noble Lord did upon this occasion fully own and I much commend his Ingenuity in it the reality of the Gun Powder Treason since we know how much that Party have endeavoured to render it Incredible and as length of time hath so fully manifested the particulars of that Execrable Design that it hath brought such as are of that Perswasion to confess the truth of it so we hope this days Tryal will convince both the Age we live in and all Posterity of the Truth and Reality of this present Conspiracy But to go on with that Point from which I did digress I am not I confess much versed in the Canons and Councils of the Church of Rome but my Lords this I know the most famous and celebrated Writers of that Church especially of the Society of the Jesuits have publickly avowed and maintained this Doctrine And we know in all times when there hath been occasion to put it in practice it hath never failed to have been attempted and we likewise know that the Church of Rome and the Pope have always avowed the Acts when they have been done From all which we might very reasonably conclude that it is the Doctrine of that Church so to do But my Lord is pleased to say and admit for Truth That a great many private Writers do hold the contrary I believe it to be so but I do also believe that it is the Policy and Artifice of the Church of Rome to leave this Point of Doctrine in some measure undetermined that so they may make use of it as the occasion serves For if it succeeds then it is owned and justified if it miscarry then the Doctrine is but a private Opinion and the Plot but the Practice of particular Persons that are either desperate or discontented And I am fully of Opinion that This Horrid Conspiracy which is brought this day in Judgment before your Lordships wants nothing but Success to canonize it My Lords As to what concerns the Evidence it hath been so fully stated to You and the Objections that were raised to invalidate it so well answered that I will not trouble your Lordships with any Repitition of what hath been said already All we have further to desire is That your Lordships will please to take our Evidence into your Consideration and to do thereupon what shall be agreeable to Justice Mr. Serj. Maynard My Lords as to Matter of Fact I shall say nothing but only this and I wish it may be spoken with Gratitude to Almighty God that the Discovery of this Plot is rather the Work of God than Man It was first his Act in prevailing upon Oats to make the Discovery and when he stood single almost what came to support his Credit but the Letters of Coleman which were like a Tally to what Oats had said for what Oats informs is in a great part made good by his Letters
these be two such Witnesses as the Law requires I pray then my Lords consider the consequence of that doubt A man shall talk with twenty Persons about a Design to kill the King in one and the same Room one after another by taking them into a Corner singly and if ten or all twenty come to prove it here is but one Witness to each Discourse This would be a matter of dangerous Consequence but I hope will remain no manner of doubt with you nor is it fit to be argued As to the Hiring of Witnesses to Swear I think that can be no point of Law till it be so proved in Fact Doth his Lordship think that when His Majesty out of His Grace and Bounty allows a Maintainance to His Witnesses that that is an Objection to their Testimony Doth not every man allow his Witnesses a a Maintainance and yet it never was thought a thing to take away their Evidence It may be every one doth not give so large an allowance as the King because his Dignity is not so great But can it be an Objection to the House of Commons Have we that are the Prosecutors maintained them If His Majesty have been bountiful to His Witnesses what is that to this Cause of the Commons If my Lord can prove any thing of Bribery in us as he has proved for us against himself it may be an Objection But till that Fact be proved I hope there is no ground for a Question in Law and if there be no doubt in Law I hope there will be no need of Counsel Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford What are the Points you would have Counsel too Lord Stafford To all of them my Lords Lord High Steward Would you have Counsel to the first Point to argue what the Law of Parliaments is concerning the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament Lord Stafford My Lords if you will declare the Law to be as these Gentlemen say I must acquiesce Lord High Steward Pardon me my Lord I do not declare the Law but ask you whether you would have Counsel to argue that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I do say there is no Example of it I know there have been Impeachments but no Examples of Impeachments continued from Parliament to Parliament Lord High Steward Then in the next place for I shall propose your Objections to their Lordships by and by and desire their Judgment in them Do you desire to argue by your Counsel that every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Lord Stafford I do my Lords I desire my Counsel may be heard to all the Points I mentioned to your Lordships Lord High Steward Have you Counsel ready to speak to these Points now Lord Stafford Yes my Lords Lord High Steward Are they prepared to speak to them now Lord Stafford They are my Lords Lord High Steward If they be so what hurt will there be in hearing of them Sir William Jones My Lords Whether you will hear an Argument from Counsel about the Law of Parliaments I hope you will please well to consider Sir Fran. VVinnington My Lords We in the House of Commons do never suffer any Counsel to tell us what is the Course of our House and the Law of Parliaments if your Lordships think fit to allow it 't is in your own power but we who are intrusted with the Management of this Cause by the House of Commons have no direction to consent to such a thing Lord High Steward We will hear Counsel to save time upon that Point whether in proof of a Treason for killing the King every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Sir William Jones If your Lordships make a doubt of it Sir Fran. Winnington And if the Prisoner desire it Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords We shall not oppose it but I shall wonder if any Counsel do maintain it Lord High Steward Are your Counsel ready to speak to that Point Lord Stafford Here they are my Lords Mr. Wallop of the Middle-Temple Mr. Saunders of the same Society and Mr. Hunt of Gray's Inn appeared by the Prisoner at the Bar as his Counsel Mr. Wallop May it please your Lordships we are here commanded by your Lordships to Attend that if any matter of Law do arise upon a Case proved agreed and judged by your Lordships debateable then in due time we are to conform our selves to your Lordships command and argue those Points for my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. But if your Lordships do think that the Points urged by my Lord are not debateable in Law I have so high an Opinion of your Lordships Judgment and such a mean opinion of my own Talent that I shall not undertake to Argue Extempore in this great Assembly in a Cause of so high a Nature Lord High Steward Look you Sir you are of my Lords Counsel Mr. Wallop I am my Lords and by the Order of your Lordships do attend here Lord High Steward If you think it an arguable Point you will have the Judgment of my Lords afterwards Will you argue it now Mr. VVallop My Lords I always thought if a Point be stirred in any Court and thought disputable it should be stated and agreed before it be argued Lord High Steward You are to argue for my Lord and to know the Judgment of the Court afterwards would you know our Opinions before hand Mr. VVallop We would know what it is we are to argue if your Lordships please Lord High Steward Why if you are provided for it you are to maintain that by Law every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses if you are prepared speak to it and my Lords will hear you Mr. VVallop It is true my Lords there have been some publick Resolutions concerning that Point therefore I shall be the warier what I say in that But my Lords it is a matter that has been thought of great import one way or other but I do profess at this time I am not able to undertake a Solemn Argument upon that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I am so far from delaying this Cause that I desire it may be argued now Lord High Steward Then you are not ready to speak to it Mr. VVallop No my Lords I am not for my own part at present for it is impossible we should foresee what would be the Point and to apply our selves to study an unforeseen Case before it be agreed stated and judged worthy of Argument cannot be expected from us I have always observed it in the King's-Bench If the Prisoner urge any thing and the Court think it debateable they first agree and state the Case then Assign Counsel whom they do not urge to deliver an Opinion presently but give them time to prepare for it Lord High Steward Mr. VVallop it is not believed that this Point is moved but by your Advice that are of my Lord's Council and you should be ready to maintain the Advice you give
prove well enough that there was such a Plot but my Lords withall we did consider when the first Discovery of this Plot was made how afterwards it took cold how rumors were raised against it how there were endeavours to suppress the belief of it and therefore my Lords we do conceive that it is fit we should first settle that that there was a general Plot a Plot of such a Nature as the Articles express Some Objections we thought there might be raised because it hath been so long in the World some years now since the Discovery of it some persons that is some ten or eleven Prosecuted and Atatinted for it and therefore that might have been satisfaction enough that such a Plot there was besides that there have been publick Declarations of the Particulars to the World But being now to proceed before your Lordships in a judicial way We did think fit and we hope your Lordships will approve of it to spend some time in the Proof of the general Plot which we hope will be to the satisfaction of your Lordships and the whole World for we do not think that England only looks into this days Tryal but the whole World one way or other the whole Christian World is concerned in it My Lords after the Publication of these things which were not judicial how far your Lordships will believe them as Judges we know not we will prove it now that their Policies and Contrivances may be laid open to the World And first we offer it to your Lordships because we have made it part of the Charge And secondly we shall do it because we think your Lordships are not obliged to believe things that are in Print till we prove them by Witnesses judicially before you But the main Reason why we do it is because we would touch upon those Endeavours that have been used to make this seem as if it were a kind of State Plot I know not what to call â—t a Chimaera an Imagination and not a real thing This they laboured many ways to effect but we shall prove that it is a very real and a very true one When that Oats first made a Discovery it seems it had not that weight that we think now it will clearly have with your Lordships and had not the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey followed in the Neck of it the World as it was asleep would have lain so but that awaked us My Lords it fell out in this Case as it did in another when Cateline the Traytor was a great way off Rome and four other Lords with him Cassius Cethegus and others five in all it came to pass that as the great Orator that was at that time said Many were so ignorant that they would not think it many were so unwise they would not believe it some so ill that they would favour it some so much worse that they did Foster it but all of them in not believing it gave strength to the Conspiracy the Treason And so it did here for we look not upon our selves as discharg'd from the Treason when Discover'd but when Prevented My Lords another Reason to induce us into the Proof of the main Plot is this We do not look upon it as a particular Offence as if one Lord was only to be questioned and appear before your Lordships judicially for it he is indeed only before you at this time to receive his Tryal and your Judgment But my Lords this is a Treason of a Faction and of a general Party in the Nation 't is not this or that Lord but a great number 't is not this or that Lord that is mentioned in the Articles but the Conspiracy is of a great Faction This we do think and this makes us so earnest to press the general before your Lordships that we may give satisfaction to your Lordships and the World what this Plot hath been and how carried on every where My Lords The Consequence of that is very great for my Lords if there were a general Design and a general Plot as clearly there was for some were to act in Spain and some in France some in other places some in Ireland Scotland and England and a great number of Jesuits we have a matter of Thirty in Chase about this business I say my Lords if it be so if one Action be in one place and another in another yet if there be a common Consent to accomplish this Plot then what the one does is the Act of All and the Act of All is the Act of every one My Lords The Persons were many and the Places and Times many they acted in and the Designs which they were to accomplish and the means wherewith they were to accomplish them were many too Great and wicked were their Designs to destroy our King to take him out of the World and why upon hopes of better times to them under him that should succeed him Another part of the Design was to destroy not this or that man that stood in their way but the whole Body of the Protestants here in England not a Murder but a Massacre and a Slaughter of all whosoever they were that came near them and none were to escape for if any meant to flee they would be sure to cut them off nay not only to destroy our King though that be the greatest Offence that our Law can take hold off but to destroy our Religion and to destroy us because of our Religon To accomplish this that we may open the generals of it Arms were to be provided Men to be raised an Army was formed in effect and who to Lead and who to Command and who to pay But my Lords not only were Arms to be had here among our selves but a French Aid must be fetch'd in Assistance from France must come too Intelligences and Letters are written and Correspondencies had and Aids promised by the Ministers from thence My Lords 'T is a strange thing that English men should contrive to have an Invasion of Strangers upon their own Country and surely they are the worst Biggots in the world that were so zealous to destroy their own Nation and they were not wise sure to think that if the French did come in they should continue great Lords or great Men and yet thus it was in general It is very strange that it should enter into the heart of any man to destroy so many persons But my Lords if we look upon what did incourage them and what confirmed them in this Design and what they have published to the world about their Religion we shall not wonder at it since they tell us 't is lawful to kill an Heretick King and the King of England is an Heretick they say and so declared so that whosoever would Kill him did a lawful and pious piece of Service to God Nay not only so but a Meritorious and Glorious one too for which they may be Canonized for Saints My Lords
does countenance and encourage the Murdering of Princes the Massacring of such as they miscall Hereticks and the committing of all sorts of Impiety in order to promote their Superstitions and Idolatries has been mentioned by the Gentleman who spoke before me and I should mispend time to say more of a truth so well known in so great and so learned a Presence I will therefore directly apply my self to the Business of the day to represent to your Lordships our Evidence of the Plot in general and of the Guilt of this Lord at the Bar in particular In order to which I shall crave your Lordships leave that I may use this method First To shew what advantageous opportunities the Papists had to enter into and undertake this great and detestable Conspiracy Secondly To prove the reality of the Plot in general which I look upon as a very easie undertaking Thirdly To state the particular Evidence against the Prisoner at the Bar by which he will appear to have been one of the principal Conspirators in this horrid Design to murder our Soveraign whom God preserve to extirpate the Protestant Religion and to subvert totally the Government and Fundamental Laws of this Kingdom My Lords To shew what extraordinary Advantages the Papists had to enter upon this Conspiracy will very naturally lead us into our Proof of it and therefore I shall speak somewhat to that in the first place It is not unknown to your Lordships or to any others who have in the least degree inquired into Affairs that His Majesty has been so unhappy as that unawares to him some Ministers who have been Papists at the Bottom and others that have drove on their Interest have crept into his Councils and thereby gave great opportunities to advance Popery 'T is most true that as soon as these ill Ministers were detected and their ill Designs discovered His Majesty did discharge them But to the misfortune of the King and his People as ill men have been recommended to succeed them and came into their places In the next place my Lords There did appear in some men too easie and favourable a disposition towards the Papists They were grown strangely moderate towards these old Enemies of our Church and State New Projects of Reconciling us were set on foot and Books were written to distinguish the Church of Rome from the Court of Rome One of those Books which was printed the year before the Discovery of the Plot pretends That there ought to be a Difference made between Papists of Loyal and Disloyal â—â—â—nciples This Book as it was written more artificially than the rest and published in so critical and dangerous a juncture deserves and I doubt not in time will have a particular Consideration 'T is easie to believe how great Encouragement this must give to the Romanists to see how very willing men were to meet them and how freely the Pen was drawn in their favour Another great Encouragement my Lords which the Papists had was That by the means of those Ministers who were secretly of their Faction whensoever His Majesty was pleased to command the Laws made against them in the Reign of Queen Elizabeth and King James to be put in due Execution his good Intentions were frustrated and the Severity of those Laws was turned upon the Protestant Dissenters This was a Masterpiece of Rome not only to divert from themselves the edge of those Laws which were designed against them but to turn them upon the Protestants and to make them useful to advance the Romish Interest And when they had thus divided and distracted us then was the fairest time for them to attempt to destroy us utterly and to make sharp their Weapons in order to a Massacre But my Lords That which gave the Papists the greatest encouragement to enter into this detestable Conspiracy was that they had to the great unhappiness of this Kingdom the Protestant Religion the expectation hopes of a Popish Successor This was an opportunity not to be lost They had abundant Experience of His Majesties Firmness in the Protestant Religion both during his Exile and since his happy Restauration and how resolutely he had kept that Promise which he made in his Letter from Breda That neither the Unkindness of some Protestants nor the Civilities of some Papists should in the least degree startle him or make him swerve from his Religion They therefore could have no hopes of arriving at their Point the Re-establishment of their Church whilst the King liv'd and it was too great a hazard to expect His Majesties Death by the Course of Nature And therefore like true Papists that would stick at no wickedness to accomplish their Designs they threw off all Bonds of Loyalty and Allegiance and resolved to destroy our Soveraign whose Life was the only Obstacle in their way This was the last and most wicked part of their Plot which though it consisted of very many parts yet this was the principal and our Evidence against the Lord at the Bar will chiefly run to this part of the Design I have only mentioned some of those Encouragements which the World plainly saw the Papists had before the Plot was detected But since the Discovery it has been abundantly prov'd that it had been carrying on for many years and that so universally that it is a wonderful thing it appeared no sooner My Lords I come now to our Evidence and though it may seem unnecessary to prove to your Lordships general Plot of the Papists who are so well satisfied of it already and have more than once declared so to the world yet because it is the most natural method for us first to prove that there was a Conspiracy before we attempt to prove this Lord to have been one of the Conspirators we shall beg your leave as to that particular and as we shall be careful not to take up too much of your time so we well know your Lordships will allow us all the time necessary to give our Evidence We have many Records things reduced to Judgment whereby the Plot is most undoubtedly proved and which are legal Evidences before your Lordships The Attainders of several Jesuits and Priests the Attainder of Langhorn and of Coleman whom I should have named in the first place We have also the Conviction of those that were prosecuted for the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey and there is a Conviction though not for Murder yet for cutting the Throat of Mr. Arnold 'T is true he is not dead yet as to the publick I count him murdered by the Papists though he be alive in the world My Lords we have Convictions not only of Treasons Murders and cutting of Throats but of almost all other Villanies whatsoever As of Attempts to suborn Witnesses and to scandalize the Kings Evidence and to that we shall produce the Record concerning Readings attempt upon Bedlow that concerning the Suborning of Knox and Lane to Swear Buggery against Dr. Oats and
the Conviction of Tasborough and Price to corrupt Dugdale a principal Witness as to this Plot. I only mention these particulars my Lords and certainly as you are a great Court of Record you will take notice of them It would be a hard thing perhaps to spend the time in reading all since all of them are made known to the world already but we shall in the course of our Evidence produce them and you may read such of them as you please All the use we make of them is for the proof of the general Plot which is requisite to be done for it will be hard to believe the Prisoner Guilty of the Plot if there were no such Plot at all My Lords we shall make appear to you things which have not yet been brought into Judgment In the year 76. we shall prove by a Witness that was then abroad and discoursed with Anderton Campion Green and several other Priests and Jesuits that they did acquaint him that there would be great alteration in England ere long that the King was a Heretick and Excommunicated and might be destroyed and this Doctrine they continually and industriously preached And they further said if once the King were removed who alone stood in the way their Religion must needs flourish for this Reason as the Witnesses will speak that the Duke of York was on their side My Lords We shall prove that they had in England men no less industrious amongst them some whereof have been Executed Gavan by name who made it his business to go up and down in several Counties of this Kingdom to prove by Scripture Councils and Examples That it was a lawful undertaking to kill His Majesty These things I name as necessary in order to introduce our particular Evidence I am unwilling to dwell longer upon this point of the general Plot. I shall produce the Records and produce our several Witnesses Mr. Oats and others that will give you a full and plain Account of it My Lords Having done with the general Plot I come now to open the particular Evidence against my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. As to him my Lords our Evidence stands not upon Conjectures or upon meer Probability because this Lord is as we well know a zealous Papist and hath owned himself so but we have express particular Proofs against his Person My Lords we have one Witness to produce to your Lordships who will prove that in September 78. there was a Consult of some Priests and other Conspirators at Tixall in Staffordshire my Lord Aston's House for killing of the King where my Lord Stafford was present And by a Discourse in the same month we shall prove what reasons this Lord did give why he and their Party undertook the Murdering of the King because he said That he and many Catholâ—ck Families had no Recompence for their Loyalty but if any thing fell it was disposed of to Rebels and Traytors This he resented deeply but above all the Obligation of his Conscience and of his Religion persuaded him to it and confirmed him in his resolution to go on in this horrid Design My Lords we will go farther and prove that this Lord offered 500 l. out of his own Purse to carry on the Plot and particularly this part of it for killing the King We shall produce to your Lordships a Witness to whom he made this offer as looking upon him to be a faithful man and having received so great a Character of him from one Evers a Priest that he thought he might safely communicate the matter to him and the Argument he urged to persuade the Witness besides the 500 l. which he said upon his application to Harcouâ—t and Ireland they should pay him was this that others as well as he was employed in the same Design that it was the only way to establish the Romish Religion in England that he would lay an everlasting obligation upon all the Persons of that Persuasion and that he should not only have his Pardon but be Canonized for it My Lords This is the substance of the Testimony of the first Witness which we shall produce against my Lord Stafford and that is so express as I think it can hardly be answered My Lords Our next Witness says thus for I shall but open the substance of what they say In June or July 1678. there were several Letters from this Lord at the Bar to the Jesuits in London in which his Lordship did declare his readiness to serve them in their great Design and in June 78. the latter end of the month my Lord Stafford came to Mr. Fenwicks Chamber in Drury-Lane he went not then by the name of my Lord Stafford but by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham and there he did receive a Commission from Fenwick to be Paymaster-General of the Army which was to be raised for the carrying on the Plot. His Lordship told them he was then going into the Country but he hoped he should soon hear from them that they had done the business at least that it would be done before his Lordship did return To which Fenwick made answer Your Lordship must look after the business as well as other Persons and there will be need of some to Countenance it in Town thereupon the Lord the Prisoner at the Bar said That they had been often deceived by this Prince and been patient with him but they would bear no longer but were now resolved to do the Work without delay for their patience was worn out Several other particular Circumstances the Witnesses will acquaint your Lordships withal which I shall not take up your time with My Lords We have a third Witness as considerable and particular as any of the rest one that lived three years in the Lady Powis House had his Education there and was persuaded by that Lady and by one Morgan a Jesuit to become a Fryer and to that end was sent to Doway But not liking to continue at Doway he will tell you the reason why he escaped to France and at Paris came to his Brother a Benedictine Monk there who advised him to go for England But whilst he staid at Paris this Gentleman by the means of his Brother and other Priests grew into a great samiliarity with my Lord Stafford who was then in France and who at last came to have such a great Confidence in him that his Lordship could not hold but told him that though he had disobliged all his Friends by his going away from Doway yet he had something to propose to him which would be a means to reconcile him to hâ—s Friends and bring him into preserment and into the friendship of all good Catholicks whom he would oblige by it The Gentleman was willing to embrace so happy an opportunity and desired to know what it was could procure him so great a good My Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar told him It was a thing of very great Importance and
after having required from him all possible obligations of Secrecy he told him plainly what great benefits would accrew to himself and what advantage to the Catholick Cause if he would make himself and the Nation happy by undertaking to kill the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel to God Almighty My Lord Stafford did believe the Witnesses did embrace this proposal warmly and therefore directed him to prepare to go for England and to go before hand from Paris to Deep where he would meet him and go over with him But it seems my Lord Stafford met with some diversion for he did not keep his word with him in coming and so this Gentleman being disappointed went over without him but fearing to be called upon to the same Service he returned back again suddenly and went into the French Army My Lords We shall produce these Witnesses against the Lord at the Bar and when they have proved to your Lordships what I have opened any one who was not acquainted with the Popish party would believe they would be at a loss how to acquit themselves from this Charge All manner of foul and indirect practices have been used by them to Terrifie to Corrupt and to Scandalize our Witnesses all manner of Objections have been made to our Evidence If the Witness does not come up to speak directly to every Point we are told he says nothing at all if he speaks directly they cry he is not to be believed Thus they have a ready answer to every Witness that has been or ever shall be produced either that he says nothing Material or that nothing that he says ought to have any Credit But we doubt not by this Tryal before your Lordships if we cannot stop their mouths at least to convince all the World besides of the reality of this Plot. It will be no wonder if their Confidence goes on still to frame Cavils They are used to scandalize the Government and they cannot give it over How often has His Majesty under his Great Seal published and declared this Conspiracy How often has he press'd His Parliaments to go on to bring the Conspirators to Punishment and at the opening of this very Parliament he says plainly That he does not believe himself safe from their Designs Your Lordships also have Voted the unquestionable Truth of the Plot and so have the Commons yet these men are so hardy as still to deny the plainest Truth so confirm'd as this hath been Nay My Lords Their Malice goes yet farther for they have been so Bold as to whisper up and down and industriously to spread Reports before the Trial as if this Lord at the Bar and the rest who are Impeached should certainly be acquitted We do hope to be able to detect the Authors of this great Scandal and the Commons doubt not of your Lordships Concurrence to assist them in bringing them to their deserved Punishment This is sure the first time that ever any sort of men presumed to Reflect upon the Justice of this High and Noble Court Your Ancestors my Lords did by their Honour Courage and Justice preserve our Ancestors The advantage of which We who are descended from them do now enjoy and We shall never have occasion to doubt in the least but that your Lordships will tread in their steps You have in your hands a great Opportunity to make your Zeal for Truth and for the Protestant Religion famous to Posterity No Artifice or Malice can Create the least Jealousie in us that ever your Lordships should shew any Partiality or Injustice to the Commons of England To your Judgement this Cause is submitted and when we have your Judgement we doubt not but we shall drive Popery out of this English World My Lords We shall go on to the proof of our Cause and I hope this will be a happy day to us and the whole Protestant Interest Then Mr. Treby also one of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords THese two Learned Gentlemen have fully discharged their Province I shall proceed to call our Witnesses to give their Testimony But before we produce them your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that our Evidence will consist of Two Parts general and particular the general to shew the Universal Conspiracy the particular to shew what special part this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar had in it And though in the first part my Lord Stafford may not be particularly named yet that Evidence will be pertinent and proper for us to give in this Trial of my Lord Stafford for we charge him not with the Private Treason wherein he with his immediate Complices only might be concerned but it is a Treason of the Popish Faction or at least the Principal and Active Papists We lay it in our Articles of Impeachment That there was an Execrable Plot contrived and carried on by the Papists and that the Conspirators acted diverse Parts and in diverse places beyond Sea as well as here It was a Treason that did bestâ—ide two Lands England indeed was the thing aimed at the destruction of the Religion Government and Liberty of England was the End but the Means and Instruments were not Collected here only but part of them were to be brought in from abroad This is an Enterprise too extensive to be intirely manag'd by a Single Nobleman And though we look upon my Lord Stafford as a great Malefactor yet we cannot think him so great a Man as to be able within his own Sphere to compass this whole Design Should we not take this course of Evidence first to prove the General Plot it might be a great and just objection in my Lords mouth to say You charge 〈◊〉 with a Design of Subverting the Kingdom how is that possible to be undertaken by me and those I have had opportunity to converse and confederate with a mighty part of the Catholick World had need be engaged for such a purpose My Lords If this would be a material Objection from this Lord then will it be requisite for us to obviate and prevent the Objection by shewing first that there was such a grand and universal design of Papists in which this Lord was to co-operate for his distinct share though perhaps when we descend to our particular Evidence it will appear that his part hath been great and manag'd with malice as great as any My Lords We shall begin with a Witness a Gentleman whose Education has given him the opportunity of knowing the inside of their Affairs and we presume he will give you a satisfactory account his name is Mr. John Smith Lord High Steward What do you call him to Gentlemen Mr. Treby To the General Plot my Lords Lord Stafford May it please your Lordships I know not who he is nor his Name I humbly beseech your Lordships that this Witness who ever he be and all the rest that have any thing to
should disclose it and particularly that time that I went away from my Lord Astons which was on a Monday morning Mr. Evers gave it me about the 18. or 19. of November 1678. And I did then promise by all the promises I could make and upon the Sacrament in his Chamber that I would not disclose it but having others to advise me in it such as could better do it that told me such Oaths were better broken than kept and thereupon I came to discover the thing which I have done to the best of my knowledge I am very loath to charge my memory in particular about times or how many were in company but those that I am sure of but there hath been in company at the Consultation several times Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons Mr. Vavasor Mr. Petre Mr. Howard and my Lord Aston himself when there hath been speech about the Design for the introducing of Religion and for taking order about money to buy Arms and particularly when my Lord Stafford was by about the Death of the King and that was about September 1678. Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale you speak of leavying Arms and of the Oath of Secrecy that was given you were there not other Spiritual Weapons used Was there not an Indulgence or such a thing Mr. Dugdale There was an Indulgence about 78. or thereabouts which came through Irelands hands transmitted from beyond Sea and so to Mr Evers and Mr. Gavan was put on to publish it which he did one time at Boscobel And it was likewise at all private Chappels that whosoever was active for the introducing the Romish Religion or killing the King should have a free Pardon of all his sins Mr. Foley Pray declare what Arguments have been used by your Priests to induce you to this Design Lord High Steward Raise your voice that we may hear what you ask Mr. Foley We would know what Arguments have been used to perswade to this design Mr. Dugdale They have told me in their Meetings the King was an Excommunicated Heretick and he was out of the Pale of the Church therefore it was lawful to kill him and it was no more than the killing of a dog Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further what he hath heard about a Massacre that was intended L. H. Stew. Have you heard of any Massacre that was to be Mr. Dugdale I have heard that about the time the King should be killed several should be provided with Arms and such Instruments and rise all of a sudden at an hours warning and to come in upon the Protestants and cut their Throats that was one proposal and if any did escape there should be an Army to cut them off in their flight Mr. Treby My Lords I desire to ask him one Question further whether he ever knew or heard of Mr. Oates and Bedloe till the Plot was detected Mr. Dugdale I have heard of them from Priests as messengers intrusted by them but no otherwise L. H. Steward When did you hear that Mr. Dugdale I have formerly declared it Mr. Treby Ay when L. H. Steward Before the discovery or after Mr. Dugdale Before the discovery Mr. Treby My Lords the reason of the Question and the use we make of it is this We charge the Papists with the Conspiracy of a Plot and they charge our Witnesses with a Conspiracy to accuse Now it appears that Mr. Dugdale had not any knowledge of the other Witnesses and only had heard of them as persons concern'd so it could not possibly be a joint contrivance amongst them Sir John Trevor My Lords I desire to ask this Question Whether Mr. Dugdale hath seen any Letters from Whitebread to Evers and what instructions were in those Letters to Evers about the persons to be concerned and what kind of Creatures he was to imploy in this great Design of theirs Mr. Dugdale I saw a Letter from Whitebread to give Mr Evers a caution who he did employ or trust in the Design for he told him there had been good care taken therein hitherto and it were no matter whether they were Gentlemen of Quality or not so they were stout and trusty or to that purpose L. H. Steward What should they be trusty for Mr. Dugdale For the killing the King L. H. Steward Was that said plainly in the Letter Mr. Dugdale To the best of my remembrance in those very words L. H. Steward Was there no Cypher or Character Mr. Dugdale There was no Cypher or Character that I know of nothing but two letters for his Name Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Dugdale may give an account of those Papers he speaks of What became of them and tell us the reason why they were not produced Mr Dugdale My Lords when I was by the instruction of Mr. Evers to take my flight I conveyed all my Papers that either belonged to him or my self for the carrying on of the Plot and carryed them to an House not far remote from my Lord Aston's and by the help of two Maids Mr. Treby Name them Mr. Dugdale Elizabeth Eld and Anne Eld. And they two did prepare a Fire in their Chamber for that purpose and they assisted me to burn them I was in a great consternation and great fear in regard I must fly and abscond my self and indeed I did it with Tears in my Eyes And whilst we were burning of the Papers one of them spy'd a little Paper-book by chance and she asked me whether that should be burnt I told her no burn not that for there is no Treason in it With that one of them ask'd me is there any Treason in the rest and I put them off to the best of my knowledge and would not give them a direct answer Sir John Trevor Why did you consent to burn them Mr. Dugdale Because I knew they would discover me and others that were concerned in the Plot. Sir Fr. Winn. Your Lordships will be pleased to observe the burning of the Letters was before he discovered the Plot or any thing Mr. Sacheverell My Lords We desire he may be asked one Question he told your Lordships of the Letter that came into Staffordshire about the Death of Sir Edmonbury Godfrey but he hath not told you of the reason why he was to be taken away We desire he will let your Lordships know what reasons they gave for it Mr. Dugdale My Lords I was desirous to know how things went being concerned as well as Mr. Evers and I asked what the reason was they took away his life Mr. Evers told me that there was a Message sent to Mr. Coleman to desire him that he would not reveal what he knew concerning the Plot or any thing of that nature Mr. Sacheverell From whom was that Message sent Mr. Dugdale From the Duke of York And Coleman did send word back again What was it the nearer for he had been so foolish as to reveal all to Sir Edmondbury Godfrey who
had promised to keep it all as a secret But upon the Examination of Oates before Sir Edmondbury Godfrey as a Justice of Peace he was afraid he would come in an Evidence against him and had shewn himself a little too eager which made Coleman afraid he would witness against him And the Duke of York did send word back again That if he would take care not to reveal but conceal it he should not come in against him or to that purpose And the next news we heard was the Letter that he was dispatched Mr. Foley I desire he may give an account what assistance the Pope gave for the carrying on of this Design Mr. Dugdale I heard the Pope had out of his Revenue promised several sums of money for the carrying on this Plot and particularly that he would assist the poor distressed Irish with both Men and Money and there should not be any thing wanting on his part Lord High Stew. Have you done with him Gentlemen Mr. Treby Yes I think we have done with him as to the general Lord Stafford I desire to ask him then what sums of money did the Pope contribute to it L. H. Steward What sums of money did the Pope contribute to this Design Mr. Dugdale I have heard of several sums in general that he was to contribute for the carrying on of the Plot. L. H. Steward Did you hear of any sum certain Mr. Dugdale I do not know but I think I have heard sometimes of ten thousand Pound or some such sum I have been told by a Servant that formerly belonged to my Lord Stafford That the Popes daily income was twenty four thousand Pounds a day and that if he would do as he had promised he was able to do very much L. H. Steward They told you so you do not know it otherwise Mr. Treby We have done then with him We call Mr. Prance next Who was sworn Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr Prance would give us an account of what discourse he had with one Mr. Singleton a Priest and when Mr. Prance I went to one Mr. Singleton a Priest at one Hall's in the year 78. and he told me That he did not fear but in a little time to be a Priest in a Parish Church and that he would make no more to stab Forty Parliament Men than to eat his Dinner vhich he was at at that very time L. H. Steward Where was that Mr. Prance At one Hall's a Cook in Ivy-lane L. H. Steward Will you ask him any Questions my Lord Lord Stafford No my Lord Mr. Treby Then call Dr. Oates Who was sworn L. H. Stew. Do you examine Mr. Oates upon the general Plot or the particular Mr. Treby Only to the General now and we desire him to take notice he is so to speak and to confine himself to that at present Dr. Oates My Lords in the year 76 I was admitted into the service of the Duke of Norfolk as Chaplain in his House and there I came acquainted with one Bing that was a Priest in the House And being acquainted with him there came one Kemish very often to visit him and one Singleton who told me that I should find that the Protestant Religion was upon its last legs and that it would become me and all men of my Coat for then I professed my self a Minister of the Church of England to hasten betimes home to the Church of Rome My Lords having had strong suspicions for some years before of the great and apparent growth of Popery to satisfie my curiosity I pretended some doubts in my mind My Lords after some time had passed over I had some conversation with these men I found they were not men for my turn because being regular men they were not men that had any great degree of Learning Afterwards my Lords I met with one Hutchinson I found him a Saint-like man or one that was Religious for Religion sake and him I found not for my turn neither For my Lords my design was to deal with their Casuists that is those of the Society After that I had obtained the favour from him to have some Conference with one of the Society I found they were the men for my turn because I found they were the cunning politick men and the men that could satisfie me After that I had some Discourse with them I pretended to be convinced by their Arguments And my Lords after that I had thus acknowledged my Conviction I desired to be reconciled and accordingly on Ash-wednesday 1676. I was reconciled And soon after my Reconciliation Strange who was then Provincial of the Society did tell me much after this way Mr. Oats you are now reconciled to the Church of Rome and you must lay down your Ministry for your Ordination is invalid and you must look upon your self as no more than a Layman Pray says he now what course do you think to take I told him I did desire to be one of their Society and to be admitted a Novice into their Order He said it was a very honest request and a very honest desire and he said he would take some time to consider of it and he would take till the Saturday following Saturday following I was sent for by one Fenwick I lodged then in Barbican and Fenwick came to me and told me the Fathers were met at Wild-House and would speak with me And he also told me they had granted my request and I should be admitted After I was admitted they told me I had some years upon me and I could not undergo those burdens they put upon younger men But what did I think of travelling and going beyond Sea to do their business I did agree to it and in April 77. I went aboard one Luke Roch Master of the Bilboa Merchant bound for Bilboa having their Letters of Recommendation After I arrived there which was on a Sunday in May or June I can't tell which I went the Friday following for Validolid in Castile and I got thither the Tuesday following but by the way I opened certain Letters wherein was made mention of a disturbance designed in Scotland And the Letters did express what hopes they had to effect their Design in England â—on the carrying on as they worded it the Catholick Cause and for the advancement of the interest of the Bishop of Rome My Lords after I had arrived at Validolid there were Letters there got before me which were dated in May wherein was expressed news That the King was dispatched which was the cause of great joy to the Fathers there and afterwards Letters dated in May too but towards the latter end of May came That they were mistaken and desired the Fathers there to stifle that news My Lords there came Letters dated in June wherein they did give an account That they had procured one Beddingfield to be Confessor to the Duke of York which Beddingfield by his interest might prevail much with the Duke in
order to this Design Letters came also in June from St. Omers which gave them an account That Father Beddingfield had assured them of the Dukes willingness to comply with them for the advancement of the Catholick Religion My Lords after I had stay'd some time there and had passed through the Country for the business of the Society I found that in the Court of Spain some Ministers of that Court had been very ready to advance Money which Money was returned for England and that the Father Provincial of the Jesuits of Castile by his care and industry had advanced Ten Thousand Pound which was promised to be paid in June following within a Twelvemonth after My Lords in July I received Letters out of England wherein an account was given there to the Fathers in Spain That they were sending them a Mission of Twelve Students Four whereof were to go to Madrid and Eight to Validolid the Conductors of these Twelve Students were one Father Crosse that was his true Name and one Father Mumâ—ord whose true Name was Armstrong These Missioners arrived in December where they had a Sermon preached at their coming by this same Armstrong wherein the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy were declared to be Antichristian Heretical and Devillish in which the Kings Legitimacy was vilified and abused and that his Religion did intitle him to nothing but sudden death and destruction in that he appeared an enemy both to God and Man These were the Contents of that Sermon as near as I remember My Lords after the meeting with several Letters there in July August and September in the Kingdom of Spain it was ordered I should return for England and in the month of November I came for England at which time I had Letters from the Provincial of Castile called by the Name of Padre Hieronymo de Corduba who did in his Letter assure the Provincial in England and the Fathers here That the ten thousand Pound should be paid as I said hefore in June following When I came for England at London I was lodged at one Grigson's that lived in Drury-lane near the Sign of the Red-Lyon and there I lay till I went to St. Omers and by the Provincial and the Consultors of the Province I was ordered a maintenance and it was paid to this man for entertaining of me I went and brought these Letters to this Strange and there was Father Keins lying ill upon Strange's Bed and Keins was saying he was mighty sorry for honest William so they called the Russian that was to kill the King that he had missed in his Enterprize But my Lords this I think good to tell your Lordships they were not so zealous for the destruction of the King till the King had refused Coleman the dissolving of the long Parliament Then they were more intent upon it though they had several times attempted it ever since the Fire of London but when Coleman was refused the Dissolution of the Long Parliament then were they more zealous for the Destruction of the King but the Design for the introducing the Popish Religion they have been carrying on some years before the Fire by those instruments some of whom are yet alive My Lords I left England in November old stile and December new stile for when I came to St. Omers it was as near as I can remember the 9. or 10. of December according to the stile of the place I carryed with me a Packet of Letters from Strange the Provincial and other Fathers that were of the Consult for the Province of England to the Fathers at St. Omers wherein Strange did tell them that they had great hopes of their Design taking effect the next year but as yet it would not be effected he said therefore they at London thought it fit to suspend it till they saw what the Parliament would do And he did in the same Letter declare That the Parliament would be about a long Bill that had been brought into the Commons House some Sessions before but he did not Question but that the Catholick Party would evade that Bill And My Lords in that year some time after we had a Letter from our New Provincial whose true Name was Whitebread and his counterfeit Name White This Father writes to the Fathers at St. Omers and therein he does order one Conyers to preach upon St. Thomas of Canterburies Day and he did therein also tell them that he would be as zealous for the carrying on of the Design as his Predecessor had been and a Sermon was accordingly preached at the Sodality Church wherein after he had commended the Saint whose Day they celebrated for his great Vertues declaring how unworthily he was sacrificed he did inveigh against the Tyranny as he called it of temporal Princes and particularly of the King of England and when he came to speak of the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy he declared that he looked upon them as Antichristian and Devillish and that it was fit to destroy all such as would countenance them We have done with the year 77. and we come now to January 1678. Lord High Stew. You speak of one Keins who lying upon Stranges Bed said he was sorry honest Will had missed his Enterprize You have not explained who that honest Will was explain that Dr. Oats It was Grove Lord High Steward But about what did he say he was sorry for him Dr. Oats That he had missed his Design Mr. Foley What was that missing of his Design Dr. Oats That he had not killed the King My Lords in January 78. Lord High Steward You mean according to the Foreign stile Dr. Oats Yes according to the Foreign stile My Lords we received Letters out of Ireland and there my Lords we found by the Contents of those Letters that they were as busie in Ireland as we were in England We found there that the Talbots and other persons were very zealous in raising of Forces and were resolved to let in the French King provided that the Parliament should urge the King to break with France My Lords likewise in January as near as I can remember Morgan was sent into Ireland as a Visitor which is something a better place than a Provincial but only it is but temporary for the time he visits and he returns in February or March and gives an account how ready the Irish were to vindicate their freedom and their Religion from the oppression of the English as they called it My Lords in February some were employed to go into some parts of Germany to Liege and to some parts of Flanders to see how the affairs there stood and how their Correspondencies stood to see whether there was not an interruption in the Correspondencies My Lords upon their return they found that the Fathers at Ghent were inclined to take into this business the secular Clergy but the Fathers of St. Omers together with the Provincial did refuse the motion because the secular Clergy were more
when the Collectors came to the Convent of our Fryers in Sligoe all the Fryers gathered together into a room and these Collectors coming in did read their Commission given them from one James Taaffe as they said and I was there personally present though a Novice and upon reading their Commissions they said Forty Shillings was to be paid by the Prior and the Fryers of that Convent and the Provincial of the Order of the Dominicans questioned the Power of the said Reynolds and Berne and so did the Prior and I asked why the money was levyed they gave answer That that levy and several other levyes was to encourage the French King in whose Kingdom were several Bishops of Ireland Clergymen and others whose business it was to provoke the King to bring an Army to invade Ireland when ever time should serve Lord High Stew. Have you done with him now Mr. Treby Yes Lord High Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford My Question is only whether he profess himself of the Church of Rome or a Protestant Mr. Dennis I am a Roman Catholick still my Lord. L. High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis I am my Lords Lord Stafford Then I have no more to say Sir John Trevor Then we call Mr. Jenison Who was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Jenison you have been among the Papists and you have had great confidence among them pray declare what you know of their Designs for the Destruction of the Protestant Religion or the means of doing it whether by the Murder of the King or what other means tell your whole knowledge Mr. Jenison My Lords In the beginning of the year 78. I have heard Mr. Ireland and Mr Thomas Jenison both Jesuits speak of a Design they had to gain a toleration of Conscience for their Party in England and the way then designed to get it was by procuring a great Sum of Money from their Party and by bribing the then Parliament I have heard them likewise discourse of securing the Duke of York's Succession and that they told me was to be done by procuring of Commissions to be granted to those of their Party to be ready to rise upon the Death of the King I likewise have heard them discourse of the necessity and usefulness to their Party of the Alteration of the Government established and that their Religion could never flourish till that was done and this Kingdom altered according to the French Model In the month of June 78 I was at Mr. Ireland's Chamber and there happening a discourse that the Roman Catholick Religion was like to come into England Mr. Ireland did then say there was but one that stood in the way and that it was an easie thing to Poyson the King and that Sir George Wakeman might easily and opportunely do it I asked Mr. Ireland whether Sir George Wakeman was the Kings Physician His answer was No but he was the Queens and so might have an opportunity to do it In the month of August the same year the day that I came from Windsor I went to Mr. Ireland's Chamber and I found he was newly come from Staffordshire and was drawing off his Boots on the frame of a Table he asked me whence I was come I told him from Windsor He inquired of me about the Diversions of the Court I told him I understood His Majesty did take delight in Hawking and Fishing but chiefly in Fishing and that he went accompanied only with two or three early in the morning Then Mr. Ireland replyed He were easily taken off or removed to which I answered God forbid being surprized at that time O said he I say not that it is lawful Then there happened some interruption to our Discourse about Staffordshire then we fell into a Discourse of their Religion that he said was suddenly to come into England and he asked me if I would be one of those that would go to Windsor to assist to take off the King I told him no then he told me he would remit the 20 l. I owed him if I would go to Windsor to be one of those that were to take off the King My Lords I told him I would have no hand in any such matter and that I would not for twenty times 20 l. have any hand in the Death of the King said he Would you do nothing for the bringing in of our Religion I told him I thought it would never come in by blood I told him further God forgive me if the King were taken off so well and good but I would have nothing to do with it He left not the Discourse there but asked me if I knew any Irishmen that were stout and couragious I told him yes I did and named Captain Levallian Mr. Karney Mr. Broghall and Mr. Wilson all Gentlemen of my acquaintance about Grays-Inn When I named these he asked me if I would go along with them to Windsor to assist them in taking off the King I told him I did not think any man of Estate would ingage in such a matter that I was Heir to an Estate my Brother being a Priest and that Captain Levallian was Heir to a very good Estate and therefore I did believe he would not do such a thing unless the Pique which he had to the King or Religion might move him to it My Lords be approved of these persons and said he knew the first two of them Levallian and Karney and he set down as I remember the other two Names in writing He told me he was going to the Club to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Levallian and Mr. Karney at that time and then asked me for the Money the Twenty pounds that I owed him He told me he wanted Fourscoure Pounds and he desired me that I would return it as soon as I came into the Countrey Now my Lords the same day that I received this Twenty pound of Ireland I went with Mr. Thomas Jenison the Jesuit to Harcourts Chamber to give the Fathers thanks for the Loan of the Money and there Mr. Jenison falling into Discourse on that common Topick of their Religion coming into England he did then use that Expression which Dr. Oats hath in his Narrative If C. R. would not be R. C. he should not be long C. R. And he did interpret it thus in Latine Si Carolus Rex non esset Rex Catholicus non foret din Carolus Rex And he did add my Lords upon the Discourse that if the King were Excommunicated or Deposed he was not longer King and it was no sin or no great sin to take him off and if it were discovered who did it two or three might perhaps suffer but denying the Fact the matter soon would be blown over My Lords about two Months after the Mustering the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath Mr. Thomas Jenison did tell me he had a matter of great Consequence to impart to me that there was a Design on foot so laid as that it could not well be
John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
of the Reign of our said Lord now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly and traiterously devised composed and writ two other Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of the said French King to the intent that he the said Monsieur Le Chese should intreat procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King from the aforesaid French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom of England then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And that the aforesaid Edward Coloman in further prosecution of his Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our said now Lord the King the aforesaid several Letters from the said Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did send into Parts beyond the Seas there to be delivered to the said Monsieur Le Chese And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the First Day of December in the Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord CHARLES the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid one Letter from the aforesaid Mounsieâ—r Lâ— Chesâ— in answer to one of the said Letters so by him the said Edward Coleman writ and to the said Monsieur Lâ— Cheâ—e to be sent first mentioned falsly subtilly and traiterously received and that Letter so in answer received the Day and Year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did inspect and read over and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman the Letter aforesaid so by him in answer received in his custody and possession the day and year last aforesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously detained concealed and kept By which said Letter the said Monsieur Le Chese the day and year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid signified and promised to the said Edward Coleman to obtain for him the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the Tenth day of December in the abovesaid Twenty seventh Year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did relate and declare his traiterous Designs and Purposes aforesaid to one Monsieur Roâ—vigni then Envoy Extraordinary from the French King to our said most Serene King at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid residing to move and excite him the said Envoy Extraordinary with him the said Edward Coleman in his Treasons aforesaid to partake And the sooner to fulfil and compleat those his wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid he the said Edward Coleman afterward to wit December 19. in the abovesaid 27 th year of the Reign of our said Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of S. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid advisedly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did devise compose and write three other Letters to be sent to one Sir William Throgmorton Knt. then a Subject of our now Lord the King of this Kingdom of England and residing in France in Parts beyond the Seas to sollicite him the aforesaid Monsieur Le Chese to procure obtain of the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence aforesaid And those Letters last mentioned afterwards to wit the day and year last abovesaid from the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid to the same Sir William Throgmorton in France aforesaid falsly and traiterously did send and cause to be delivered against the duty of his Allegiance and against the Peace of our said now Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in such case made and provided Wherefore 〈◊〉 was commanded the Sheriff of the County aforesaid that he should not omit c but that he should take him if c. to answer c And now to wit on Saturday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edw. Coleman under the Custody of Will. Richardson Gent Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate by vertue of the King 's Writ of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. into whose custody before then for the cause aforesaid he was committed to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the Marshal c. and presently of the Premisses to him above imposed being asked how he will thereof be acquitted saith that he is in no wise thereof guilty and thereof for good and evil doth put himself upon the Country Therefore let a Jury thereupon come before our Lord the King at Westminster on Wednesday next after fifteen days of St. Martin and who c. to recognize c. because c. the same day is given to the said Edward Coleman c. under the custody of the said Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate aforesaid in the mean time committed to be safely kept until c. At which Wednesday next after fifteen days of St Martin before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edward Coleman under custody of the aforesaid keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid by vertue of a Writ of our Lord the King of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the aforesaid Keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid And the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid by the Sheriff of the County aforesaid hereunto impannelled being called came who being chosen tryed and sworn to speak the Truth upon the Premisses say upon their Oaths that the aforesaid Edward Coleman is guilty of the High Treason aforesaid in the Indictment aforesaid specified in manner and Form as by the said Indictment above against him his supposed and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman at the time of perpetration of the High Treason aforesaid or at any time afterwards had no Goods Chattels Lands or Tenements to the knowledge of the Jurors aforesaid And the aforesaid Edward Coleman
being asked if he hath any thing or knows what to say for himself why the Court here ought not to proceed to Judgment and Execution of him upon the Verdict aforesaid saith nothing but as before he had said And hereupon instantly the Attorney General of our said Lord the King according to due form of Law demandeth against him the said Edward Judgment and Execution to be had upon the Verdict aforesaid for our Lord the King Whereupon all and singular the Premisses being viewed and by the Court here understood It is considered That the said Edward Coleman be led by the said Keeper of the Gaol of Newgate aforesaid unto Newgate aforesaid from thence directly be drawn to the Gallows of Tyburn and upon those Gallows there be hanged and be cut down alive to the Earth and his Entrals be taken out of hiâ— Belly and be burned he still living and that the Head of him be cut off and that the Body of him be divided into Four parts and that those Head and Quarters be put where our Lord the King will assign them c. L. Staff I do not hear one word he says my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this does not concern your Lordship any further than as to the generality of the Plot. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have now done with our Proofs for the first general head that we opened which was to make it out that there was a Plot in general We now come to give our particular Evidence against this very Lord and before we do begin we think fit to acquaint your Lordships that our Evidence will take up some time if your Lordships will have the patience to hear it now we will give it but if your Lordships will not sit so long till we can finish it it may be some inconvenience to us to break off in the middle And therefore we humbly offer it to your Lordships consideration whether you will hear it now or no. L. H. Stew. If it cannot be all given and heard now it were better all should be given to morrow Sir Will. Jones If your Lordships please then we will reserve it till to morrow L. Staff My Lords I would only have your directions whether I shall answer this General first or stay till all be said against me That which I have to say to this General will be very short L. H. Stew. My Lord you are to make all your Answer entire and that is best for you L. Staff I am very well contented that I may be the better prepared for it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn into the Parliament Chamber Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chember And the Lords went away in the same Order they came The Commons returned to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and then the House Adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning The Second Day Wednesday December 1. 1680. A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they intend to proceed to the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford at ten of the clock this morning in Westminster-Hall Mr. Speaker left the Chair and the Commons came into Westminster Hall in the new erected Court And the Managers appointed by the Commons went into the Room prepared for them in that Court to proceed to the particular Evidence against William Viscount Stafford About ten of the clock in the morning the Lords came into the said Court in their former Order and Proclamation being made of Silence and for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar they proceeded L. H. Stew. My Lords expect you should go on with your Evidence and proceed in the Tryal of this Noble Lord. L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I humbly desire that my Counsel may be near me for the Arguing of what is fit to them to speak to as to points of Law for points of Fact I do not desire it L. H. Stew. My Lord you have an Order for your Counsel to attend and they must and ought to attend Mr. Serjeant Maynard The Counsel must not suggest any thing to him while the Evidence is giving they are not to be heard as to matter of Fact L. H. Stew. It is not intended to make use of Counsel as to matter of Fact but they may stand by Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords they may stand within hearing but not within prompting L. Staff I assure you if I had all the Counsel in the world I would not make use of them for any matter of Fact Mr. Treby My Lords will you please to order them to stand at a convenient distance that they may not prompt the Prisoner Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hope your Lordships will consider that a man in a Capital Cause ought not to have Counsel to matter of Fact 'T is true he may advise with his Counsel I deny it not but for him in the face of the Court to communicate with his Counsel and by them be told what he shall say as to matters of Fact is that which with submission is not to be allowed If your Lordships order they shall be within hearing I do not oppose it but then I desire they may stand at that distance that there may be no means of intercouse unless points in Law do arise L. H. Stew. You were best make that exception when there is Cause for it in the mean time go on with your Evidence Sir Franc. Winn. We did perceive his Counsel came up towards the Bar and very near him and therefore we thought it our duty to speak before any inconvenience happened This Lord being accused of High Treason the allowing of Counsel is not a matter of Discretion If matters of Law arise all our Books say that Counsel ought to be allowed But we pray that there may be no Counsel to advise him in matter of Fact nor till your Lordships find some Question of Law to arise upon the Evidence L. H. Stew. When there is Cause take the Exception but they do not as yet misbehave themselves Mr. Treby My Lords we presume your Lordships did from the strength and clearness of yesterdays Evidence receive full satisfaction concerning the general Plot and Conspiracy of the Popish Party It being an Evidence apparently invincible not out of the mouths of two or three Witnesses only but of twice that number or more credible persons Upon which we doubt not but your Lordships who hear and Strangers and unborn Posterity when they shall hear will justifie this Prosecution of the Commons and will allow that this Impeachment is the proper voice of the Nation crying out as when the knife is at the throat By the Evidence already given I say it is manifeâ—t that there was a general grand Design to destroy our
Religion our King and his Protestant Subjects And 't is even impossible that this Design so big could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this Noble Lord at the Bar. It could not be carried on by less and lower men And it were a wonder that a person so servently affected and addicted as this Lord is to that Party should not be in at so general a Design of the Party But this indeed is but presumptive Evidence which will induce a moral persuasion We shall now produce such positive Evidence as will make a judicial certainty and will abundantly suffice to convince your Lordships and convict this Lord. The Particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the Witnesses whom we shall call They will testifie what share this Lord had in almost all the Parts and Articles in our Charge contriving and contracting for the Murder of the King levying Arms c. And first we call Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford My Lords I conceive I have good ground to except against this man for a Witness for my own particular I know myself as clear â—nd free as any one here but I will not except against him now but reserve it against the time when I come to make my Defence and therefore admit him to be sworn provided my Lords that he look me full in the face L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford what is your Exception against this man that he may not be a Witness L. Stafford I do admit him to be sworn I say nothing now against him Mr. Treby He is sworn already L. H. Stew. You swore him to give Evidence as to the general Plot you did not swear him as to the particulars against my Lord Stafford Sir John Trevor We are content he shall be sworn again we pray he may be sworn Sir Will. Jones 'T is true my Lords we did divide the Evidence into two parts but his Oath was not divided if your Lordships please you may swear them all over again if it may be any satisfaction but I think it was never seen before Then Mr. Dugdale was sworn L. H. Stew. There is Mr. Dugdale come Sir what say you L. Staff Really he is so changed I do not know him Mr. Dugd My Lord I have Witnesses to prove that you know me L. Staff I beg your Lordships that he may look me in the face and give his Evidence as the Law is Sir John Trevor My Lords if this Noble Lord the prisoner at the Bar will have this Witness to look him continually in the face the Court will not hear half his Evidence We desire he may address himself as the Law is to your Lordships and the Judges L. Staff I desire the Letter of the Law which says my Accuser shall come face to face Mr. Dugd. My Lords I am willing to do as your Lordships shall order L. H. Steward My Lord you do see the Witness that is enough for face to face and you make no legal exception against him why he should not be heard L. Staff Very well my Lord I submit Mr. Dugd. My Lords I have for some years past whilst I was a Servant with my Lord Aston been acquainted and frequently had Discourses with my Lord Stafford before we came to discourse any thing concerning the Plot on foot Lately in 78. my Lord coming down into the Countrey it was either in August or September the latter end of August or the beginning of September L. Staff I beseech your Lordships he may name the times L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship please do not interrupt the Witnesses but wherein he is short do you ask him the Question when it comes to your turn I will bring it to as much certainty as I can Mr. Dugd. There was a meeting at Tixal where there were several present L. H. Steward When Mr. Dugdale It was in September or the latter end of August L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Dugdale 78. My Lords I had then by Mr. Evers means admittance to hear because of my incouragement what the Discourse was at that time It was to debate and determine upon the former Resolutions both beyond Sea and at London before both to take away the life of the King and to introduce their Religion of which I was then one My Lord Stafford was there present and did with the rest consent to it Afterwards my Lord Stafford being at one Mr. Abnets of Stafford one Sunday morning in September came to my Lord Aston's House to Mass I met with my Lord Stafford at some distance from the Gate and my Lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his Horse told me it was a very sad thing they could not say their Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long we should have our Religion established which was much to my joy at that time After that time my Lord Stafford was sometimes at Stafford and sometimes at Tixal I will not bâ— positive as to a day but I think it was about the middle of September My Lord Stafford sent for me to his lodging Chamber as he had several times before sent for me and said he had had great Commendations of me from Mr. Evers that I was Faithful and Trusty Lord Stafford My Lords I desire I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid you should be denied that Give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper I hope your Lordship hath one to assist you that takes Notes for you if you have not you have lost a great deal of time already L. Staff There was one all day yesterday my Lords I desire he may speak his Evidence over again L. H. Stew. Let him begin his Evidence again for my Lord had not Pen Ink nor Paper which he ought to have to help his memory Mr. Dugdale I may miss as to the words but the matter of Fact I shall repeat my Lords I have been frequently acquainted whilst I was a Servant at my Lord Aston's with my Lord Stafford coming to my Lords House in the Counâ—rey and my Lord being several times there I came to that Intimacy by Mr. Evers means that my Lord would frequently discourse with me About the latter end of August or some day in September my Lord Stafford my Lord Aston and several other Gentlemen were in a Room in my Lord Aston's House and by the means of Mr. Evers I was admitted to hear for my incouragement and there I heard them in that Debate at that time fully determine a Resolution upon all the Debates that had been beyond Sea and at London before That it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the King as the speediest means to introduce their own Religion After sometime my Lord being at Stafford at Mr. Abnets L. H. Steward Was my Lord Stafford at that meeting where they debated to kill the King Mr. Dugdale My Lord was there L. H. Steward Was he consenting to
that Resolution Mr. Dugdale Yes I heard every one give their particular full assent At which there was a great Hum L. H. Steward What is the meaning of this For the Honour and Dignity of publick Justice let us not carry it as if we were in a Theatre Mr. Dugdale My Lords Some times in September my Lord Stafford being at Mr. Abnets House in Stafford came once upon a Sunday morning to hear Mass I meeting him at the outward Gate of my Lord Aston's House when he alighted off his Horse after some Discourse he turned to me and told me It was a sad thing we could not say our Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long if things took effect we should have the Romish Religion established And I at that time did seem to be and really was as glad as any person could be After some time I think it was about the 20. or 21. of September my Lord Stafford sent for me into his lodging Room I think it was by his page or him that waited upon him in his Chamber and he told me I must come to my Lord and I immediately went to his Lordship he was just then arising and dressing he sent his men out and told me he had had a good Accompt from Mr. Evers and other Genlemen that I would be faithful and true to their Intentions about the introducing their Religion He told me he was likewise concerned himself and that in a very high degree and for taking away the Life of the King he offered me at that time for my Charges and Encouragement 500 l. and that I should go in October after to London with him my Lord Stafford and that I should be with him sometimes at London and sometimes at an House of my Lord Aston's about twenty five miles from London and that I should be under the care of him in London and Mr. Ireland and in the Countrey of one Mr. Parsons that knew of the Design I did then shew as much resolution to be faithful to my Lord as I could and that I would be true to what my Lord then engaged me I after went to Mr. Evers and communicated to him what my Lord Stafford said and was something in admiration at my Lord 's offering me such a Sum of Money for I doubted of my Lords Ability to make good Payment He told me that I need not sear it for Mr. Harcourt and Mr. Ireland had Money enough in their hands to defâ—ay that and other Charges and I should not want Money for the carrying it on My Lords I remember that at another time there was a meeting wherein there was a Debate about my going up and other businesses my Lord Stafford was present and there were several there besides I did not knâ—w them all then but in the first place they told me I should be made equal with one Captain Adderly that is since dead and that I should have a Reward in London I understood that the Duke of York my Lord Arundel and my Lord Bellasis and others were to give me it and speaking of the Rewards to those that were ingaged they said there would be Land enough from the Protestants to satisfie all that acted in the Design Another time my Lord Stafford discoursing in a Dining Room in my Lord Aston's House did express his great Zeal and the reason why he was such an Enemy against the King he said both he and my Lord Aston had been great Sufferers for the King and for his Father and that my Lord in particular his Grandfather or his Father had spent 30000 l. in the Kings Service and had no Recompence that he had always shewed himself Loyal to the King but whenever there came any place of Preferment to be disposed of it was rather given to such as had been Traytors and Rebels to the old King and likewise to the King himself than to any that had been had Loyal He said this was his chief Motive if there were not Religion in the Case which was of an higher nature or to that purpose L. H. Stew. When was this last Discourse Mr. Dugdale In September 78. as near as I remember for we had several Discourses L. H. Stew. This was not the time you were at my Lords Chamber Mr. Dugdale No it was in my Lord Aston's Dining Room L. H. Stew. No nor when he sent for you to offer you the 500 l. Mr. Dugdale No not at that time it was another time L. H. Stew. What Month and Year Mr. Dugdale September 78. my Lord. Mr. Foley I desire he may give your Lordships an account what assurance he had of Pardon if he did succeed Mr. Dugdale I was told I need not fear and particularly my Lord Stafford told me I should have a free Pardon for it for the King had been Excommunicated and was likewise a Traytor and a Rebel and an Enemy to Jesus Christ L. H. Steward But how could you be Pardoned From whom were you to have that Pardon Mr. Dugdale I was to be Pardoned by the Pope L. H. Stew. That was for your Sins Mr. Dugdale Yes I expected no other if I had gone on Mr. Treby Were you promised nothing else but a Pardon from the Pope Mr. Dugdale Yes I was to be Sainted Sir Will. Jones Will his Lordship please to ask him any Questions we ask him no more Mr. Foley Yes I desire another Question may be asked him that he would give an account of the Letters my Lord Stafford writ to Evers about the Design L. H. Stew. What say you to that Question Mr. Dugdale There came a Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford I knew it to be my Lords hand some might counterfeit his hand but as near as a man can swear to the hand of another in a Paper he did not see written that was my Lords-hand That things went all well beyond Sea and so he did hope they did here for the carrying on of the Design it was to this purpose expresly Mr. Treby We have done my Lords with him Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford will you ask him any Questions L. Staff My Lords I have divers Questions to ask him very many but I humbly crave your Lordships Directions if I ask him any Questions now whether I may not ask him some afterwards L. H. Steward My Lord you may ask Questions of the Witnesses as often as you please and when ever you find it useful to you God forbid there should be any time to foreclose a man from asking a Question that may save his life L. Staff I pray he may be asked how long before this time he knew of the Plot. L. H. Steward How long have you known this Plot Mr. Dugd. In general for the introducing of the Popish Religion and the incouragement to it by the Duke of Yorks being Successor I have known it 15 or 16 years by the means of Mr. Evers L. Staff My Lords I understand him he says
he knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago if I be not mistaken he says so Mr. Dugd. My Lords if your Lordships please to give me leave to explain my self further it was not for taking away the life of the King but for making ready against the King died with Men and Arms. L. Staff My Lords he says in the latter end of August or beginning of September I told him such and sucâ— things I desire he may name the day that may be many days and I may prove I was not there and I can prove for all August and a good while in September therefore I desire he may name the day L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford I come thus near on purpose to serve your Lordship that you may not strain your voice too much but I am not so happy as to apprehend what it is you say L. Staff My Lords I say he speaks of the latter end of August or beginning of September which is too great a latitude and I conceive more than ought to be given in such a matter of importance as this is to me I desire he may name the day for he may name days perhaps that I was not there L. H. Steward Look you Mr. Dugdale my Lord does desire if you can you would be a little more particular than about the latter end of August or the beginning of September if you can remember the day tell it us Mr. Dugd. I cannot remember particular days it being a thing I then took no account of only this I do remember by a remarkable circumstance that one time was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. H. Stew. That was the time of your coming into his Chamber and his offering you five hundred pound Mr. Dugd. It was so but other meetings I dare not charge to a day Lord Stafford How then can I make my Defence Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford How my Lords can I be able to give an account of it I shall prove to your Lordships that he once said it was in August now he says it was in August or September I beseech you that he may positively stand to the month if not to the day Mr. Dugdale I speak as neer as I can Lord Stafford But he says the 20. or 21. particularly Mr. Dugdale Thereabouts I am sure it was Lord Stafford Look you he will be positive in nothing Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford If he swears false in one thing I hope upon proof of that your Lordships will believe he may be false in all I pray he may be asked what hour of the day it was whether it was morning or afternoon L. H. Steward He is positive only to the 20. or 21. of September the time when he says you called for him into your Chamber and offered him five hundred pound to kill the King would your Lordship ask him whether it were in the forenoon or afternoon Lord Stafford Yes my Lord I would Lord High Steward Was it in the forenoon or in the afternoon Mr. Dugdale It was in the forenoon for I did formerly speak of that he was dressing himself when I came in L. H. Steward Then that is answered positively Lord Stafford My Lords he says one Sunday morning I came to my Lord Astons to Mass I desire you would please to ask him whether ever he saw Mr. Evers and me in his life alone together L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford and Mr. Evers ever together alone Mr. Dugdale Several times I have seen them walking together in the Garden and in the Walks at my Lord Astons and I have been with them my self when there hath been only them two besides L. H. Stew. That is answered fully will your Lordship ask him any thing else Lord Stafford He says he was to go to London in October with me I stand not upon that till I come to make my Answer but I take it he says the 20. or 21. of September when I offered him five hundred pound in my Chamber to kill the King that he went presently to Evers to speak with him about it Lord High Stew. As doubting the payment of the money and he told him that Harcourt and Ireland would pay it Lord Stafford Was it the same day pray ask him my Lords Mr. Dugdale I do not say it was the same day but it was the next time I could come to speak with him Lord High Steward He tells you it was as soon as he could speak with him Lord Stafford He said before it was presently after he went from me I desire your Lordships would take notice how he contradicts himself in every circumstance Lord High Stew. What say you did you go presently to Mr. Evers after my Lord Stafford had made the offer Or was it the same day or the next day Mr Dugdale To the best of my remembrance it was the same day I can't say positively Lord Stafford My Lords I have no other Questions with Dugdale Sir John Trevor Then my Lords we will call another Witness Lord High Steward Have you no more to say to Dugdale my Lord Lord Stafford Not at present till I come to make my defence Lord High Stew. God forbid but you should have leave to say all that you can for your self Mr. Treby Then set up Dr. Oats Do your Lordships require that he should be sworn again Lord Stafford I desire nothing nor propose it if he will declare upon his Oath that he took yesterday Lord High Stew. Heark you Dr. Oats This is but a continuation of the Proceedings yesterday you are upon the same Oath now that you were then and what you say this morning will be taken to be upon the same Oath Mr. Treby Dr. Oats upon the Oath you have taken yesterday Lord High Stew. Pray swear him again which was done Mr. Treby Dr. Oats Pray speak your knowledge of my Lord Stafford's being ing aged in the Design Dr. Oats I desire I may be left to my own method L. H. Steward Go on in your own method Dr. Oats My Lords in the year 67. there were divers attempts upon the life of the King as the Jesuits told me and in the year 74. there was an attempt upon the account of the Kings withdrawing the Indulgence in 74. and 75. in the year 1677. whilst I was in Spain I met with several letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did assure the Jesuits in Spain that were of the Irish Nation how zealous he should appear in the promoting of the Catholick Design My Lords in the year 77. I went to St. Omers and I came there in December My Lords in that year I being ordered to look over the Papers and put them in order I found several Letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did intimate to the Fathers that whereas there had been some difference betwixt him and the Society for several years
Lord Stafford I will willingly dye if ever I saw this Doctor in my life Dr. Oats I excuse my Lord for that for I was in another habit and I went by another Name and your Lordships do remember I came in another habit to make the first Discovery Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw his face nor know him nor Fenwick or Thompson otherwise than one Thompson a Merchant at Brussels Dr. Oats But my Lords I have one thing more to say of my Lord Stafford my Lord Stafford went into France I can't say the year but I believe it is within the term of 6 or 7. but he went over to France and it did appear by letters from him that Seignior Con was made choice of to heal the Difference between the Regulars and the Seculars and Seignior Con did come over in the year 76. and there did make a kind of a peace among them which lasted whilst Con stayed here and Con did bring over Messages to which my Lord Stafford if he tells any truth in his own letter did return answers Lord Stafford For the present all I say to it is this I never writ any one letter this 25 years nor had any correspondence with any Jesuit Lord High Steward I beseech your Lordship make me capable of serving your Lordship by letting me hear what you say Lord Stafford My Lord I have a great Cold and can speak no louder I desire to ask this Witness no more Questions at present but I say I never writ any letters to any Priest this 25 years Mr Foley Then my Lords if my Lord hath done we will call another Witness and that is Mr. Edward Turbervile Who was sworn L. H. Steward Look upon the Prisoner Do you know my Lord Stafford Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward Raise your voice and speak deliberately Mr. Treby Give an account of your knowledge and use your own method Mr. Turbervile My Lords in the year 1675. I was perswaded by my Lady Powis and one Morgan that was Confessor to the Family to go to Doway in order to take upon me the Fryars Habit. When I came there instead of Religion I found nothing but Hypocrisie and Villainy among them and quickly grew weary of staying there and with much difficulty I escaped thence to go for England when I came into England I did not think that my Friends would look unkindly upon me because I refused to live in that way that they proposed to me to live in I used all the means I could to have them reconciled and made applications to them that since I could not bear with the life they would have had me lived in they would contrive some way for me being a younger Brother that I might live in the world but they were so averse and inveterate against me that they told me instead of doing any thing for me they would do me all the mischief and prejudice they could and having lived all my time among them I thought the World would receive a Character of me from them who were my Relations as they would please to represent it so having no hopes in England I took a resolution to go into France where I had a Brother that was a Benedictine Monk and I hoped that he being in good repute amongst them might be able to do me some service there When I came to Paris my Brother used all the endeavours imaginable to get me to be of that Order but I having so ill a conceit and opinion of the Order that I was in before and thinking all the rest were the same I was unwilling at all to enter into it And after I had staid there a while I resolved to come over into England My Brother used all the means he could for my accommodation and recommended me to this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar who lodged then at a corner house in a Street which as I remember bears the name of La Rue de Beaufort where I was several times with him in order to come over with him in the Yaught for England After I had been there for a fortnight with this Lord he understanding my condition by my Brother and by the other Fathers of that Convent and imagining I was a fit instrument to be employed on such an occasion propos'd to me a way whereby as he said I might not only retrieve my Reputation with my Relations but also make my self a very happy man and after having exacted from me all the obligations of secresie which I could give him he at length told me in direct terms it was to take away the life of the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty I looked upon it as an extraordinary attempt and desired time to consider of it before I would undertake it And I gave him this answer I would give him my resolution at Diep where we were to go on board for England And when I came to take my leave of this Noble Lord at the Bar he was sitting upon a bench and he was troubled with the Gout in his foot at that time And he told me he had some business to go to Versailles and that he should not be in six or seven days at Diep where I was to wait for him After a while I received a letter at Diep from his Lordship wherein he writ word That he had altered his resolution and would go by the way of Calice and that I should hasten to wait on his Lordship at London I have one thing more to observe to your Lordships when I got passage from Diep in a Fisher-boat for England I never came neer my Lord Stafford because being not willing to undertake his proposal I thought my self not safe even from my own Relations and therefore I made my applications to the Duke of Monmouth and his Grace was pleased by letter to recommend me into the French service and by that means I avoided his Lordships further importunity Lord High Steward You say my Lord did propose to you the Killing of the King did he plainly make the proposal in direct terms to kill the King Mr. Turbervile Yes he did my Lord. Lord High Steward What did he offer you to do it Mr. Turbervile Nothing for I would not accept of it I told him it was a matter of great concernment and I ought to consider of it and I took time to think of it and would give him my answer at Diep which he came not to and so there was an end of it Lord High Steward What ingagements of secresie had you given my Lord before he opened himself so plainly to you Mr. Turbervile I gave my Lord my word and my promise that I would not discover it to any person directly nor indirectly my Lord had nothing of an Oath from me L. H. Steward Will you ask him any more Questions Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No my Lords L. H. Steward Will your
Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw the man before in my life I will ask him one Question since he hath been pleased to swear against me Mr. Turbervile My Lords I had no reason but the truth to do it for I never received any injury from his Lordship in my life L. Stafford It seems I had ill luck to choose this man for an attempt to Kill the King who was such a Coward he ran away from his Colours and was to have been shot to death Mr. Turbervile Ask the Duke of Monmouth what Character he received of me L. Stafford He says in the year 75. he went from London to Doway and staid some time there and then came back to England I beseech your Lordships to ask him what time he went back to Paris L. H. Steward What time was it that you went back to Paris Mr. Turbervile Truly my Lord I cannot be punctual to a fortnight but I believe it was the beginning of June L. H. Steward What year Mr. Turbervile 75. Lord Stafford My Lords I would know who recommended him to me to go over with me into England Lord High Steward Who recommended you to my Lord Stafford to go into England Mr. Turbervile My Lords it was Father Sherborn who was then Prior of the Benedictine Monks in Paris and Father Nelson Sub-prior of those Monks and my Brother who is a Monk in the same Convent Lord High Steward He says that there were three persons that recommended him to your Lordship Lord Stafford I never saw them in my life Mr. Turbervile Your Lordship that says I was a Coward and run away from my Colours will say any thing Lord Stafford I not only say it but will prove it by two Witnesses Mr. Turbervile Do it if you can Lord Stafford He says in the beginning of June 75. he went into France I desire to know of him when it was he spoke to me Mr. Turbervile In November 75. Lord Stafford He says in November Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord about the beginning of November L. Stafford I beseech your Lordship where was it he spoke to me L. H. Steward Turbervile where was it you spoke to my Lord Mr. Turbervile In Paris L. Stafford Whereabouts in Paris Mr. Turbervile It was the Corner-House of the Street which Street faces Luxenburgh House the Prince of Conde lodges on the right hand in that Street I take it to be so and you lodged at the Corner-House I think the Name of the Street was La Rue de Beaufort L. Stafford Which if the Prince of Conde did I will say no more Mr. Turbervile I cannot be upon my Oath in such cases but I think he does I take it so L. Stafford He says he was with me a fortnight what does he mean Mr. Turbervile I came to my Lord several times in the space of a fortnight L. Stafford I desire to know who brought him to me Mr. Turbervile Father Sherborn Father Nelson and my Brother Father Anthony Turbervile and sometimes I came alone L. H. Steward He says those three Fathers recommended him to your Lordship and he came himself several times Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lords it is true L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships did he come directly to my Chamber or where Mr. Turbervile Sometimes to my Lords Chamber and at other times I met him in a lower Room L. Stafford It concerns me much my Lords and though they be foolish Questions yet I hope your Lordships will pardon me if I ask them Where was this Discourse about killing the King L. H. Steward Was this Discourse in the Chamber or in the lower Room Mr. Turbervile In the lower Room L. Stafford He says I think that he hath been in my Chamber L. High Stew. Have you been in my Lords Chamber as well as in the lower Room Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lords I have L. Stafford What kind of Room is it Mr. Turbervile I cannot remember that L. Stafford No I dare sware you can't Mr. Turbervile I can't tell the particulars what Stools and Chairs were in the Room L. Stafford My Lords I have no more to say to him at present L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervile How long have you been in England Mr. Turbervile I cannot answer punctually I have been in England near four years L. H. Stew. How came it to pass that you never discovered this sooner Mr. Turbervile I had no Faith to believe that I should be safe if I did it but my brains might be knocked out and that kept me off from doing that service which I might be better able to do if I did deser it L. H. Stew. How came you to discover it now Mr. Turbervile The Kings Proclamation and some Friends that have perswaded me I may do it with safety who will give your Lordships an account of it L. Stafford I desire he may attend when I make my defence Mr. Turbervile Yes I shall But I am sorry that his Lordship hath so ill a memory as to what passed between us I shall be very unwilling to do his Lordship or any body else any injury but I must tell the truth Sir Will. Jones My Lords We shall call no more Witnesses unless my Lord the Prisoner give us an occasion If he shall make any Objections to any of our Witnesses I hope we shall have liberty to call Witnesses to support them but we give over at present and expect his Lordships Answer L. Stafford May it please your Lorships I beseech your Lordships before I say any thing that I may know if they have any more Witnesses to examine Lord High Steward They say they will call no more Evidence unless your Lordships Answer do give them occasion to fortify their Witnesses you except against Lord Stafford My Lords it is now about two years that I have had the misfortune to be accused of this detestable Treason I have been several times in those two years a close prisoner that my Wife and Children were denyed to come neer me and hardly a Servant permitted to ask how I did but at the door of my Prison My Lords This was a great and an heavy affliction to me and my Lords it was so great an affliction to me that truly I did not know how to bear it 'T is true I had that comfort that I did hope I should soon come to my Tryal and before your Lordships make my innocency appear In order to which I did all I could having heard this Hall was provided for it and I did expect in a very few days to clear my self before your Lordships and all the World When I had settled my mind and did not foresee any greater affliction that could befall me I had on the sudden by some of my friends a sad Message sent me That the House of Commons had impeached me of High Treason My Lords I looked upon the House of Commons then as I do now as the great
they have can in the least absolve me of my Allegigiance And I do acknowledge the King is my Soveraign and I ought to obey him as far as the Law of the Land obliges any Subject of his to obey him whether I have taken the Oath of Allegiance I appeal to your Lordships to be my Witnesses and if I did not take it a thousand times for my Allegiance to the King if required I think I should deserve a thousand Deaths and all the Torments in the world for refusing it My Lords These Gentlemen here did begin their Charge Serjeant Maynard and Sir Francis Winnington with telling your Lordships there was an horrid Design to murder the King to alter the Government and introduce the Popish Religon This they say was ingaged in by the Roman Catholicks that all the Church of Rome were the Contrivers of it for they tell your Lordships the whole Body hath been ingaged in it and they have given you many Proofs by Witnesses examined the first day of a General Plot what Credit you will give to them I leave to your Lordships in the end of the Case but still they said it was the Body of the Roman Catholicks in England or the Papists or what they call them that were the Plotters in this Design But I beseech your Lordships how am I concerned in it for I must say to your Lordships they have not offered one proof that I am of that Religion So that though any of you should have seen me at the Exercises of that Religion or otherwise know it of your selves yet if there be no Proof judicially before you you are not to take notice of it I have heard if a man be accused of a Crime and be to be tryed and no Evidence come in if every man of the Jury were sure that the Fact was done yet they must go upon the Evidence produced to them and not upon their own knowledge So then no Evidence being produced before your Lordships about my being a Papist you are not to take me for such an one But my Lords if I were of that Church and that were never so well proved too I hope I have an advantage in it that I have kept my self from being poysoned with so wicked a Principle or ingaged with the rest in so ill a thing My Lords I am here accused of having endeavoured to kill the King I find by the Law upon reading Sir Edward Coke since my Imprisonment That all Accusations of Treason ought to be accompanied with Circumstances antecedent concomitant and subsequent but I conceive my Lords there is no tittle of any such thing proved against me The whole compass of my life from my infancy hath been clear otherwise In the beginning of the late unhappy times the late King of happy and glorious memory did me the honour to make me a Peer and thinking that my presence might rather prejudice him than serve him my Wife and I settled at Antwerp when the War begun where I might have lived though obscurely yet safely but I was not satisfied in my Conscience to see my King in so much disorder and I not endeavour to serve him what I could to free him from his troubles And I did come into England and served his Majesty faithfully and loyally as long as he lived And some of your Lordships here know whether I did not wait upon the now King in his Exile from which he was happily restored which shews I had no ill intention then My Lords I hope this I have said does shew that my life hath given no countenance to this Accusation but clear contrary to what these I hope I may call them so and doubt not to prove them so perjured Villains say against me My Lords After I had this misfortune to be thus accused about a month or six weeks after your Lordships were pleased to send two Members of this honourable Body to me I do not see them at present here to examine me about the Plot they were my Lord of Bridgwater and my Lord of Essex if they be here I appeal to them what I did say These two after they had examined me told me they did believe and could almost assure me That if I would confess my Fault and let them know the particulars of it your Lordships would intercede with the King for my Pardon but I then as I ought asserted my own Innocency Not long after the King out of his Grace and Goodness to me sent six of the Council to the Tower to offer me That though I was never so guilty yet if I would confess I should have my Pardon I did then consider with my self I could not imagine what ground there was to believe your Lordships could have Evidence of what there was not to bring me in Guilty and thereupon I was so far from being able to make a Discovery that I could not invent any thing that might save my life if I would My Lords I was seven days in the Countrey after I heard of the Plot if I had known my self guilty I should surely have run away As I came to London when I was at Lichfield there met me two of my Lords They told me and so did a Gentleman of the House of Commons how much there was in the Plot which if I had had an hand in it would certainly make me fly for it I have ever heard when a man is accused or suspected of a Crime Flight is a great sign of Guilt and that it is often asked of the Jury though there be no certain positive Evidence of the Fact Whether a man fled or no As that is a sign of Guilt so Remaining is a sign of Innocency If then after Notice I come to Town and suffer my self to be taken if after Imprisonment and Accusation I refuse my Pardon and yet had been Guilty I ought to die for my Folly as well as my Crime My Lords 't is a great Offence to commit Treason and a great Addition to continue obstinate when upon Acknowledgment a man can save his life nay my Lords if I should have refused these Offers and yet known my self Guilty I had at the same time been guilty of one of the greatest Sins in the world as being the cause of my own Death And as I hold next to Treason Murder the greatest sin so I hold of all Murders Self-murder to be the greatest nay I do not think any man living can pardon that Sin of Murder And I do profess to your Lordships in the presence of Almighty God that if I could immediately by the Death of this impudent Fellow Dugdale who hath done me so much wrong make my self the greatest man in the world that is or ever was I profess before God I would not I cannot say my Charity is so great but that I should be glad to see him suffer those Punishments the Law can inflict upon him for his Crimes but his Death I would not have
L. Stafford Of Dr. Oats that was read in your Lordships House I heard it L. H. Stew. Let us understand your Lordships demands that when my Lords are withdrawn I may know what Questions to put to them and acquaint them with your desires The one is the Journal of the Lords House which is always before their Lordships and you might have had Copies long since The next thing you ask is an Affidavit of Dugdale if this Affidavit is entred into the Journal that supplies your Demands if it be not entred there where shall we find it L. Stafford I do not know L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship think all this matter must stay till we can find a loose Affidavit that we know not where 't is filed L. Stafford I know it was before the Council and I believe my Accusers have it I desire the Gentlemen of the House of Commons may produce it Sir John Trevor I have seen none nor have none L. Stafford The one was taken the 24. of December this time two year and the other the 29. L. H. Stew. My Lord will your Lordship give me leave to tell you you ought to be provided with some particular exception and not to make your demand in general If your Lordship will say Dugdale did swear such and such things which are contrary to what he now affirms we know what to make of it but to hunt after an Affidavit that we know not where to find to pick something out of it that I do not understand L. Stafford I appeal to my Lord of Essex and my Lord Bridgewater whether they did not examine me the first time upon one or two Affidavits of Dugdale L. H. Stew. Suppose it be not to be found my Lord L. Stafford Then I must have patience and submit L. H. Stew. Can you tell wherein he swore quite blank contrary to what he swears now L. Stafford My Lord I conceive it was never denied before but your Lordships may do what you please L. H. Stew. Well my Lord let us go on to the next The Affidavits of Dugdale if they be entred on the Journal may be ready if not thenâ— shall acquaint their Lordships and they will direct what is fit in the case L. Stafford Then there is the Affidavit of Oats before my Lord Chief Justice upon which I was committed the next day which was Friday it was read in your Lordships House L. H. Stew. I believe that is entred upon the Journal and so will be ready to be used L. Staff I do hope to make it evidently appear thereby that he is forsworn I desire two Affidavits more that were taken before the Justices of the Peace of Middlesex who examined Mr. Turbervile twice L. H. Stew. What Justice of the Peace L. Staff Mr. Warcupp Sir William Poultney and Sir Thomas Stringer I desire I may not be misunderstood I do not desire to have them to instruct my Counsel or advise with them upon them but I cannot make my Defence without them L. H. Stew. Those are voluntary extrajudicial Affidavits that no body is bound to keep L. Staff They were spoken of in the Votes of the House of Commons L. H. Steward What say you Gentlemen to it Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords because my Lord at the Bar is pleased to insinuate as if we knew where those Affidavits are which he seems to desire and because your Lordship was pleased to say that the Commons in Parliament are the Grand-Jury of the Kingdom I desire to say one thing That certainly it will not be required from us to produce and publish the several Facts and Circumstances that induced us to impeach him if it shall be demanded by the Prisoner at the Bar. L. H. Steward I wish you would answer the Question and not argue upon it whether those Affidavits of Turbervile may not be produced for 't is my Lords Exception against your Witnesses that he swears several ways and by those Affidavits of Turbervile he intends to disprove him in what he hath said to day Sir Fr. Win. My Lords the House of Commons never administer an Oath and therefore it is not to be said to us but my Lord Stafford must go to the particular Offices where they are to be found L. H. Stew. I do not ask you where my Lord should find them but whether if they can be found you can object any thing why they should not be produced and read Mr. Serj. Maynard When they are produced we will give an Answer L. Stafford My Lords I am informed this is the substance of the Affidavit That Turbervile did swear before two Justices of the Peace whether they be of the House of Commons or no I cann't tell that he spoke with me at Doway and in Paris in the years 73. and 77. and now he says 72. and 75. I am informed my Lords and I appeal to the House of Commons they are all Persons of Honour and Worth if my Information be mistaken I beg their Pardon and yours for 't whether he did not mend it after he had sworn it L. H. Stew. Are these all you do demand L. Stafford Yes my Lords Whether this was true or no I don't know â— is what I have been told I appeal to the House of Commons who are all worthy persons I do not believe I have an Enemy among them they know whether I speak true or no. L. H. Stew. When will your Lordship be ready to make your Defence L. Stafford As soon as ever I have them I will not stay a minute a moment an instant I desire not to shew my Counsel nor any one for my Tryal is a thing that I have long desired Therefore I would not be mistaken as if I would put off the Cause I am innocent and shall be so while I live and hope I shall make it appear so I beg if this be a matter of Law whether I may have them or not that my Counsel be heard to it L. H. Stew. This is a matter of Fact L. Stafford I insist upon it as things without which I cannot make my Defence I am innocent and I suppose not one of the House of Commons nor one of your Lordships will debar me of that by which I may make my Innocency appear Lord High Steward You cannot know my Lords pleasure till they are withdrawn Sir William Jones Before your Lordships withdraw I hope you will please to hear us a few words which we think may be for the Service of this Court. My Lords what Evidence is before your Lordships 't is in your Lordships pleasure what of that you shall please to communicate to my Lord Stafford but for this Evidence he speaks of as remaining in our hands and which he takes upon himself to appeal to us for admits of another consideration My Lords if we were conscious of any thing in these Affidavits that were for my Lords Advantage and knew where they were we would
been told this that I speak here and I desire it may be proved Lord High Steward If you are bound up so that you cannot consent I can t help it Mr. Serj. Maynard Let him put the Fact my Lords and not suppose and imagine Things and then raife Questions L. H. Stew. It is usual in these Cases for the Gentlemen of the House of Commons to stay till the Lords are withdrawn and expect their Lordships Resolution perhaps they may so order it that you need not go back Sir Will. Jones I desire before your Lordships withdraw that it may be taken notice of by your Lordships that for the matter of the variation of the year we do admit it My Lord is not pleased to mention any other particular matter of the Affidavit but only says in general that it is contrary to what he says to day if my Lord would tell us wherein perhaps we should admit it or answer it or take it into further consideration but to make so general an Allegation and give your Lordships no particular account we submit whether such a suggestion ought to be regarded Lord High Steward Is there any further variation besides the variation of the year L. Staff I cannot say there is my Lord I do not know it but I do really believe in my Conscience there is from what I have heard but however I insist upon it and demand your Judgment Sir Fr. Win. My Lords I humbly desire one word as to the Objection that hath been made that he hath prayed your Lordships to grant him the sight of such and such Papers The nature of this Cause my Lords we know is such that there was never the like number of Papers known as to the General Plot and my Lord that is the Prisoner at the Bar may as well demand to morrow such a particular Paper and the next day another that he hath heard of in the General Plot and where will the end of this be So that if the thing be granted upon the variation of the time that it was immediately rectifyed and he cannot produce any grounds that may satisfie your Lordships why he should have that Paper you may as well suffer him to demand any other Paper after and so never end the Cause L. H. Stew. Your Lordship hath been told and you shall find it that you shall have as fair and equal an Hearing as is possible and nothing shall be denied you that is just and reasonable to safe your Life or make your Defence But pray my Lord for so much as is upon the Journal which you may resort unto you may easily know what answer my Lords will give to that but for this other thing if it be only the variety you alledge of the Time and the Year and you do desire it to look for other Exceptions and you pray the help of the Lords to see such a Paper that you might make inquiry after other varieties Do you think they are to help you to find out Exceptions to the Witnesses L. Stafford I do not desire their Lordships to help me to find out Exceptions but I have told your Lordships of one Exception to the Affidavit which these Gentlemen acknowledge to be true and the other Affidavit is that he Swears I spoke to him at Doway in the year 72 or 73 which I can disprove and then I say he Swearing several things false he is no credible Witness L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to your Lordship that he did mistake the time L. Stafford It is admitted that he said he spoke to me at Doway L. H. Stew. How very an easie matter were it to expedite this Process by allowing the Prisoner his demand in this particular Sir Will. Jones I never saw it and a great many of the Managers say they never saw it L. Stafford These Gentlemen say I did it to put off the Cause I am far from it for though I am in a condition very unfit to manage my Defence faint and weak with speaking so long and hardly able to speak any more yet I desire to finish this night and if I see it now it will be enough I shall not desire to have a Copy to advise with my Counsel or any body else L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen of the House of Commons will you observe my Lord as weary as he is would make an end of the matter presently if you would but send for the Affidavit Mr. Foley My Lords it is not in our hands here if the House of Commons will order it it may be done we cannot order it of our selves Mr. Powle My Lords this is a Paper that does properly belong to the House and I do think that none of us here that are Managers for this Trial will undertake it shall be delivered without resorting to the House for their Opinion for though I do verily beleive and am fully persuaded that what this Noble Lord at the Bar does object will not appear to be so For I think there is not any thing of my Lord Staffora's speaking with this Witness at Doway mentioned therein yet how far the Presidents of this may reach in other Cases I think is worthy the Consideration of the House And we cannot presume to offer any thing in it to your Lordships until you be pleased to give us leave to go and resort thither Then the Lords withdrew and after an Hours and an Halfs space returned and Proclamation was made for Silence L. H. Steward My Lord Viscount Safford my Lords have considered of the Demands you made and my Lords upon the Debate of the Reasons of your Demands are come to this Resolution Your Lordship did demand in the first place that you might have a sight of the Journal and have the Papers lodged in the House of Peers My Lords take notice that this Demand which your Lordship now makes is a Demand that was granted you long ago about two years since you have an Order entred upon the Books that your Lordship should have Copies of every thing in that House and if your Lordship have not taken out Copies and if any thing is missing to your Lordship that is yet there extant 't is your Lordships fault However my Lords will command their Journals to be brought hither that your Lordship may make that use of them that may be of most profit to you For the other Demand touching the Affidavit supposed to be taken from Turbervile by the Justices of the Peace that my Lords upon Consideration had do find that there is no Obligation at all upon them as a Court to concern themselves in that Matter And therefore my Lords have made no Order in that Point but your Lordship must come provided as well as you can and the Court can do no more to help you in it For the rest my Lords did take notice that your Lordship said before they were withdrawn That you found your self very Faint and Weary and
discourse passed between them Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Was that before or after the 21. of September Mr. Dugdale Both before and after L. Stafford My Lords he says there was a Consult at Tixal where such and such were present and the Kings Death determined I ask when was that Mr. Dugdale That was in September I cannot say positively the day but in September or the latter end of August L. Stafford My Lords I must acquiesce and submit to your Lordships to do what you please but if he does not name times nor places how can I make my Defence I desire he may say positively within five days of the one or of the other and my Lords I will put it upon that if he say five days before the end of August or five days in the beginning of September which one would think is space enough that is ten days time L. H. Steward My Lords do observe how far Mr. Dugdale goes and that he is no further positive than he does express himself L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I press this because it concerns me very much that he may be positive within five days over or under Lord High Steward Can you remember whether it were within five days of the one or of the other Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot be positive if I had not made a particular Remark upon that of the 20 or the 21. I could not have remembred that for I did not then intend to reveal the Plot or else I could have given you satisfaction in that Lord High Steward My Lord your Lordship hath an answer to it he cannot speak more positively to it than he does L. Stafford I beseech you then how is it possible I can make my Defence Mr. Dugdale My Lords I kept no Journal if I had I would be more positive L. Stafford He says it was the latter end of August or the beginning of September I desire he will say whether it was the last week in August or the first week in September L. H. Stew. He answers he cannot tell your Lordship must make what advantage you can of that Answer L. Stafford I can make no advantage of it unless he does speak positively to the time My Lords I beseech you I may know what is the end of August and the beginning of September L. H. Stew. My Lord I hear you not L. Stafford If a man says the beginning of June I was at such a place how many days is the beginning and how many days the end of a Month How much time will your Lordships understand the meaning of that to be I am concerned extremely in the point of time for it is that which the whole Business depends upon I mean as to this man L. H. Steward My Lord go on with your Evidence I know not how to give you an Answer what Judgment my Lords will make of it or how much they will understand by it till they are withdrawn they observe how much you Lordship insists upon it and will hear what the worthy Gentlemen of the House of Commons will answer to it L. Stafford My Lords my whole business with this Fellow is concerned in a positive Answer to this Question I give him I think reasonable time to confine himself to L. H. Stew. What say you to the 20. or 21. of September my Lord L. Stafford My Lords I shall give a clear Answer to that anon but I am extremely concerned in this to know whether it was in August or September L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship be concerned never so much at that the Witness can swear no more than he can swear He says about the latter end of August or the beginning of September will your Lordship stand still for that L. Stafford Well then I will go on as well as I can as for the matter of the 20. or 21. of September I beseech your Lordships I may ask Dugdale one Question whether at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman or the Five Jesuits he did not say the Consult was in August if he deny it I shall prove it Lord High Stew. Mr. Dugdale my Lord asks whether at the Tryal of Wakeman or of the Five Jesuits you did not say it was in August Mr. Dugd. My Lords I did name there was a Consult at Boscobel in August but I do not remember that I did name my Lord Stafford in any Consult in August positively but as I say now the latter end of August or the beginning of September But I did name that there was a Consult at Boscobel in August 78. L. Staff My Lords He did say I was at the Consult in August Mr. Dugd. I did not say my Lord Stafford was there I don't charge him in it and if any such thing was printed I have wrong done me L. Staff Then he says he had nothing to do with me till the latter end of August or the beginning of September My Lords I beseech your Lordships to ask him whether in Sir George Wakeman's Tryal he did not say he was to receive Orders from me in June or July when I came into the Country L. H. Stew. Did not you say at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal that you were to receive Orders from my Lord Stafford in June or July when he came into the Countrey Mr. Dugdale My Lord I submit to your Lordship and the rest of my Lords here whether when that Question was asked by my Lord Stafford I did not say That the first time I entred into correspondency with the Consulters they told me my Lord was to come down then and I should receive Orders from him I had heard of my Lord Stafford before but not to enter into any Consults with him till he came down the latter end of that Summer L. Staff I beseech your Lordships pardon me I desire him to answer positively whether at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman he did not say he was to receive Orders from me in June or July when I came into the Country L. H. Stew. Did you say so at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Mr. Dugdale I believe I did say so for I had it from others and not my Lord Stafford himself L. Staff My Lords in June or July I was not in the Country L. H. Steward He says You were to come down not that you did come down L. Stafford If you will let him do thus there is no man safe I shall begin the Tragedy and millions will follow He swore at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman or that of those other persons That there was a Consult at my Lord Aston's at Tixal where I was one in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I did not swear so but in August or September or one of them as now I swear L. Stafford I shall prove it by the Book and Witnesses that were there Mr. Dugd. Then they did me wrong by printing it for I never said of your Lordship otherwise than
I do now L. Stafford I desire my Witnesses may be called to prove it for I conceive it is very material My Lords does he deny it Mr. Dugd. I do say there was a Consult at Tixal in August but I did not charge your Lordship positively to be there then nor with more than I do now L. Staff I think you did and I have witnesses to prove it And 't is impossible for any man living to defend himself if persons shall swear as they suppose think or remember I tell your Lordships I was not there in all the month of August L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship intend to call any Witnesses L. Stafford My Lords I thought I had more Witnesses than I have But I have two here if your Lordships will hear them that he did swear I was at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Who are they L. Stafford My Daughter Winchester for one and a Lady that is my Kinswoman for another L. H. Stew. Let them stand up they are not to be sworn You don't except against them Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No let him prove what he can Lady Marchioness of Winchester He did swear that he was to receive his Orders from L. H. Stew. Madam your Ladyship is not upon your Oath but you are under all the obligations of Truth and Honour in the world Lady March Winch. My Lords by the Grace of God I will not speak an untrue word Sir Will. Jones We desire to know this Ladies Name L. Stafford It is my Daughter Winchester Lady March Winch. This Stephen Dugdale did say at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman That he was to receive Orders from my Lord in June or July when he was to come down and that my Lord was at a Consult at Tixal in August L. H. Stew. Did he say positively in August or in August and September Lady March Winch. No he did not name September Mr. Dugdale My Lords I might say my Lord was to come down then but not that ever I said he was there but as now L. H. Stew. But she says you did not name September L. Stafford Here is another Lady Sir Will. Jones Who is she my Lord L. Stafford Mrs. Howard Daughâ—er to Sir George â—lount and married to Mr. Howard a Kinsman of mine she is now a Widow Mrs. Howard My Lords at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman Dugdale was asked to be positive in the Month my Lord Stafford came down And he said he came down in June or July but he said the Consult was in August wherein my Lord Stafford was L. H. Stew. That Lady likewise says the same That you would not be positive as to June or July but as to August you were positive that my Lord was there Mr. Dugd. No my Lords I only said in August there was a Consult and in June or July my Lord was to come down Mrs. Howard I do assure you we came to that Tryal on purpose to observe every word he said about my Lord Stafford and we have kept it in our memories ever since L. H. Stew. What do you say Mr. Dugdale to it Mr. Dugd. I suppose there was a great many more at that Tryal than these two worthy Ladies and I suppose some of them may remember I said no more than I do now I said then my Lord was to come down at that time and so I said several times but not positively that he was there till the end of August or the beginning of September L. Stafford My Lords I do positively averr here are two Witnesses that say he swore I was there at the Consult in August Now it concerns me to prove that I was not there in August since he said absolutely I was there in August and I assure you I can prove I was not there not all the whole Month. In the beginning of August I came from London from my own House on Tuesday or Wednesday the 6. of August I went to my Lord Bellasis's and that night I went to George Porters the next night I went onwards towards Bath when I was there I went over and staid with my Noble Lord the Marquess of Worcester there I staid two or three days and I went thence to another place hard by there and then I came back again to Bath and went back again afterwards to my Lords House and the first or second of September I went from my Lords House to London Then it this be acknowledged I need say no more if not I 'll prove it by sufficient Witnesses So then I was not there the whole Month of August and the beginning of September he says he spoke with me I was not there till the 12. of September Now I beseech your Lordships how that could possibly be the beginning of September I submit to you whether then he be a Witness fit to be heard that shall sweat positively what hath no colour of truth in it I also leave to you And if they object I was not where I say I was in August I will prove it And for the 20. and 21. of September I do own something of that and I shall prove to your Lordships what it was L. H. Stew. Call what Witnesses you please my Lord. L. Stafford My Daughter proves when I went out of Town Lady March Winch. My Lords it was on a Tuesday my Father went to my Lord Bellasis he dined there and then went on to George Porters L. Stafford That I was at Bath I shall call Witnesses L. H. Stew. My Lord you should prove when you first came to Tixal my Lord Aston's L. Staff Will that satisfie your Lordship L. H. Stew. Me 'T is not me you are to satisfie but my Lords and the Gentlemen of the House of Commons L. Staff Then I do own to your Lordships I came the first time the 12 th of September to Tixal L. H. Stew. That was the first day you were there L. Staff That Year my Lord it was Sir Will. Jones Prove it L. Staff Does he deny that my Lords L. H. Stew. Do you deny that my Lord came first to Tixal the 12. of September Or do you know he was there before Mr. Dugdale My Lords I have positively spoke to no day but only to the 21. or 20. of September L. Staff Where is my Lord Marquess of Worcester's Servant L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford it will be best for your Lordship to produce all the Witnesses you have and not to leave any thing undone that you can prove L. Staff But I beseech your Lordships I may ask one Question if I shall name any of the House of Peers as my Witnesses does that exempt them from being Judges L. H. Stew. No my Lord. If your Lordship have any Witnesses among any of my Lords here they may very well testifie for you and yet remain still in the capacity of your Judges for my Lord of Strafford had a great many Witnesses that were Peers Sir John Trevor We
do not oppose it my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord call your Witnesses L. Stafford There is no place appointed for them and therefore I could not have them ready here I have sent for them I have a throng of them L. H. Stew. They will open the way and we will stay for them L. Stafford My Lords I desire that as Yesterday when the Witnesses were sworn against me mine did not hear what they said so I desire when my Witnesses come theirs may not be present L. H. Stew. My Lord with your Lordships Pardon it was not well done that your Witnesses were not there but if Witnesses be to confront one another shall they not hear what one another say L. Stafford My Lords I am so clear in every thing I will dispute no little matters Then my Lords Witness stood up Lord High Steward What is this mans name you call now my Lord L. Stafford Indeed my Lord I don't know Witness My Name is Bonny my Lords L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship call this man L. Staff Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. You are not upon your Oath but you are to look that a strict account will be taken of what you say Mr. Foley My Lords we desire to know where this Witness lives Bonny I live in Exeter-street by Exeter Exchange L. Staff I declare it I know him not but I am told he can witness for me L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Bonny Thomas L. H. Stew. What Profession are you of Bonny I live as Clerk of the Kitchin to my Lord Marquess of Worcester Mr. Foley What Religion are you of Bonny A Protestant one of the Church of England L. Staff My Lords I humbly move your Lordships When I asked Mr. Smith the first day where he was made a Priest a Gentleman said he was not bound to answer any thing against himself that might make him Criminal I desire that the Question may not be put to my Witnesses what Religion they are of L. H. Stew. The Gentleman will not offer to ask any Question that may make a man accuse himself but my Lord a Papist or not a Papist is not so penal as a Priest or no Priest Mr. Foley To acknowledge a mans self a Papist is not to make him a Criminal L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship call this Witness for L. Staff To prove when I was at my Lord Marquess of Worcesters L. H. Stew. What say you when was my Lord Stafford at my Lord Marquess of Worcesters Bonny In August 78. L. H. Stew. Do you remember it perfectly Bonny Very well L. H. Stew. What day of August Bonny The 17. of August which my Lord Marquess keeps as his Wedding Day every Year and the Gentlemen of the Country are invited thither My Lord Stafford was then at Bath and my Lord Marquess was pleased to send his Coach for him to be present there that day there he staid that day and the next day and then returned on Monday And in the same month the 31. of August my Lord came again from Bath to Badminâ—on my Lord Marquess of Worcester's and upon the Monday after returned for London L. H. Stew. That was the beginning of September Bonny Yes the 2. he went to London L. H. Stew. Will you ask him Genlemen any Questions Managers No my Lords Lord High Steward Call another Witness then who stood up L. H. Stew. What is this mans Name Witness Thomas Witness Thomas White L. H. Stew. Thomas what L. H. Steward Where do you live White I live with my Lord Marquess of Worcester at Badminton L. H. Stew. What do you say White My Lords Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lord Steward I have only this to say my Lord Stafford desired that his Witnesses might not be asked what Religion they were of but I desire all my Servants may be asked for I keep none but Protestants Lord High Steward What Religion are you of White A Protestant L. Stafford My Lords I did not require it for them I know my Lord keeps none but Protestants but I asked it for others of my Witnesses that may come and be startled at it L. H. Steward What say you when was my Lord Stafford at my Lord Marquess of Worcester's House White The 17. of August 78. I fetched him from Bath being my Lords Wedding day L. H. Stew. You fetched him White Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What place do you serve my Lord Marquess in White As Coachman L. H. Stew. Was he there afterwards White Yes he was but I can't remember the day only this being a remarkable day I can remember it L. H. Stew. Did you carry my Lord from thence towards London White Yes I did L. H. Stew. When was that White The second of September to the best of my remembrance L. H. Stew. Gentlemen Will you ask him any Questions Managers No. L. Stafford I think this is so clear I shall not need to trouble your Lordships further with more Witnesses L. H. Stew. Call whom you please my Lord and as many as you think fit they shall be heard L. Stafford One more then my Lords Who stood up L. High Stew. What is your Name Witness Richard Bevan L. H. Stew. Who do you live with Bevan I am Groom to my Lord Marquess of VVorcester L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Bevan A Protestant Lord High Steward Do you remember when my Lord Stafford was at the Marquess of Worcester's House Bevan Yes I do Lord High Steward What time was it Bevan The 17. of August Lord High Steward Do you remember any other day Bevan No my Lord but he was there that day L. H. Steward Will you ask him any Questions Managers No my Lords L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I desire my Lord Marquess of Worcester may tell your Lordships whether his men have said true or no. Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lords I do remember that my Lord Stafford was pleased to do me the Honour to come upon my Wedding day from the Bath and dine with me as most Persons of Quality that are of my acquaintance and happen to be at the Bath at that time are pleased to do And as most of the Gentlemen of the Countrey within such a distance do also And that day is the 17. of August I think he was there once or twice after from the Bath but I cannot tell precisely the days but that particular day I remember because it was my Wedding day L. H. Steward Can your Lordship remember when my Lord Stafford went to London Lord Marq. of Worcester Truly I cannot tell that my Lords L. H. Steward Did you not after that lend my Lord your Coach Lord Marq. of Worcester Yes I did to carry him as far as Sandy-lane on the Road to London but the particular day I remember not but one of the persons examined who was then my Clerk of the Kitchin must needs know because he books every day who is in
Stew. Do you live with him still Furnese Yes I do and have done this fourteen years L. H. Stew. What Country-man are you Furnese A Dutch-man L. H. Stew. Where born Furnese At Brussels Sir Franc. Winn. We would ask him what Perswasion or Religion he is of L. H. Stew. You may be sure of what answer you shall have Furnese I am a Roman Catholick L. Stafford That is as good as a Jew Mr. Treby The Question is not intended for any harm not with any purpose to criminate him 't is only in regard of his Credit in this matter L. H. Stew. Call another Witness my Lord. L. Stafford Where is George Leigh Who stood up L. H. Stew. How old are you Leigh I am about fifteen or sixteen L. Stafford My Lords I believe he is eighteen or nineteen Mr. Treby Whose servant is he L. Stafford He is my Servant he hath served me seven or eight years L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship call him for L. Stafford To tell you whether I bid my Servants to go out when Dugdale came in and whether ever he saw Dugdale and I alone L. H. Stew. George Leigh How long have you lived with my Lord Stafford Leigh Seven years the 10. of June last L. H. Stew. Why then you were but nine years old when you came to him Leigh No my Lords I think I was not L. High Stew. Do you remember when my Lord Stafford was at Tixall Leigh I do not remember the month very well L. H. Stew. Do you remember the time of the Race at Etching-Hill Leigh I do not remember the day but I was at it L. H. Stew. Did Mr. Dugdale come into your Lords chamber that morning Leigh I do not remember he was there that very morning L. Stafford Be pleased to ask him whether ever I bid him go out of my chamber when Dugdale was there L. H. Steward Did you ever see Dugdale any other morning in your Lords Chamber Leigh My Lords I think not I am not certain he was there one morning and it was about a Race but I am not certain what Race it was whether it was two Boys ran or two Men. L. H. Steward Did your Lord bid you go out of his Chamber Leigh No my Lords L. Stafford Dugdale says I often sent him for him pray ask him that Question L. H. Stew. My Lord this Boy does not remember that Dugdale at all was at your Chamber that time of the Race at Etching-Hill so that it is not material to the thing in question L. Stafford Yes my Lords Dugdale told your Lordships yesterday that I sent this Boy often for him L. H. Stew. Did ever this Boy come for you Mr. Dugdale Yes he hath I am sure come to my Chamber for me to go to my Lord. L. H. Stew. Were you sent for by my Lord more than once Mr. Dugdale Yes several times L. H. Stew. Before or after the Race Mr. Dugdale Both before the Race and after the Race L. H. Stew. By whom were you sent for Mr. Dugdale Sometimes by the Gentleman that was last examined and sometimes by this Boy L. H. Stew. Did you ever come from my Lord Stafford to bid Dugdale come to him Leigh My Lords I do not remember that ever I did L. H. Stew. 'T is an hard thing to remember so long L. Stafford If ever he came once to me and was alone with me I will be content to acknowledge all this to be true Pray ask the other man if ever I sent him for him L. H. Stew. He did testifie before that he came with him that day to your Lordships Chamber L. Stafford That day my Lords But he says other days I sent for him L. H. Stew. Call Furnese again Who stood up Furnese did my Lord Stafford ever send you for Dugdale either before or after the Race Furnese Never my Lords to his Chamber Lord High Stew. Did he ever in his life send you to Mr. Dugdale to speak with him as you remember Furnese Never my Lords L. Stafford He was my Lords such a Fellow I could not endure he should come near me such an Impudent lying Fellow L. H. Stew. Have you any more Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Yes a great many L. H. Stew. Call them all I pray Lord Stafford My Lords I hope you think I would not be so great and impudent a Fool to employ such a Fellow as this who not long after run away from my Lord Aston's L. H. Steward Who did Lord Stafford Stephen Dugdale And for that if you please I would call some Witnesses L. H. Stew. Call Furnese again who stood up Did you ever see Dugdale and my Lord Stafford together Furnese Never in my life L. H. Stew. Why you saw them together that morning you brought him to the Chamber Then the Auditory laughed Furnese Never alone L. Stafford I did not think I was in a Cock-Pitt or a Play-House But if your Lordships please to let me call my Witnesses to prove That Dugdale ran away from my Lord Aston I shall call for that Thomas Sawyer Who stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Sawyer L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Witness Thomas L. H. Stew. Who do you live withall Sawyer My Lord Aston L. H. Stew. Where do you live Sawyer At Tixall L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Sawyer Yes L. H. Stew. How long have you been so Sawyer Six years and ever since Michaelmas L. H. Stew. What have you to say Sawyer As to Dugdale's reputation I have this to say How that he went from my Lord Aston's for debt and was taken by the Watch at Heywood L. H. Steward When was that Sawyer The latter end of November or the beginning of December L. H. Steward What Year Sawyer 78. L. H. Stew. Then the Family broke up Sawyer And coming thither and being taken by the Watch he was brought by the Justices to Tixall and after the Justices had been with my Lord their resolution was to carry him to the Gaol So coming to Tixal where Dugdale was at an Ale house he desired me to go to my Lord and desire him that he would own him as his Servant for he was so much in debt that he should else be undone for ever In the mean time Mr. Philips the Parson of the Town had been with my Lord for Dugdale had desired him to go to him also and he asking me whither I was going said I I am going to my Lord from Dugdale to desire him to own him as his Servant said he I have been with my Lord just now and he said he will not own him as his Servant it was his own act and deed So Mr. Philips and I came back to him and told him So he sat down in the Chair and then rose up again and swore He would be revenged of my Lord Aston if ever it lay in his power Lord High Steward You never heard him say
was this time two years The Deputy-Lieutenants met about the Militia of the County They told me that Mr. Dugdale was in Town and was under an Arrest the occasion of his coming to Town was his refusal of the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy which he had since taken I proposed to them the sending for him for I thought this was a fit opportunity to get something of him about the Plot. They seemed to approve of what I said but withal I told them it was not good to send for him till the Evening late that the people of the Town might not take notice of his coming At night we did send for him and the Gentlemen desired that I would examine him at the end of the Table so I called him up and told him I was sorry he was fallen into that misfortune to be Arrested and that Mr. Mayor had not dealt well with him or us to take that advantage of him that now he had taken the Oaths I looked upon him as one of us and would do him any kindness I could He said truly for his part he was born a Protestant and of Protestant Parents and it was his misfortune to fall into the Houses of Papists but he never liked their Religion I then told him Sir you may do your self a kindness serve God and oblige your King and Country I am very confident you know of this horrid Plot pray do not stifle your Conscience with any Oath of Secrecy but let it come out Many I told him strained their Consciences to serve their Interests but you may clear your Conscience and at the same time promote your true Interest He replyed as he hoped to be saved he knew nothing of it And this is as much as I know of the matter L. H. Stew. Do you ask him any Question Gentlemen Managers No my Lord. L. Staff My Lords I shall humbly move your Lordships now that you will please to take notice this fellow Dugdale hath endeavoured to perswade people to Swear against me falsly and offered them money for it In order to the proof of which I desire your Lordships would call John Morrall Samuel Holt and William Robinson Then Robinson stood up L. Staff This man I never saw before in my life L. H. Stew. What is your name Witness Robinson L. H. Stew. What is your Christian Name Robinson William L. H. Stew. Where do you live Robinson In Worcestershire now Lord H. Stew. With whom Robinson With my self now L. H. Stew. Do you know Dugdale Sir Fr. Winn. We desire he may give you an account what Profession he is of Robinson An Upholster Sir Fr. Winn. How long he hath lived in Worcestershire and in what place there Robinson I have lived half a year in Worcestershire half a mile beyond Worcester Sir Franc. Win. And whether he follows that Trade or Profession now or no Robinson No I do not follow it now Sir Fr. Winn. What do you live upon and how Robinson I live of my self now L. H. Stew. How is that Robinson Of my own Money Mr. Hambden We desire to know whether this man was a Servant to my Lady Gerard or no. Robinson Never Mr. Hambden Or to my Lord Gerard of Gerards Bromley Robinson Never not an hired Servant my Lords Mr. Foley Were you a volunteer Servant or what were you Mr. Treby Did you work at any time there for my Lord or Lady Gerard Robinson No. L. H. Stew. How came you to live there Robinson I went over from a Cocking out of Cheshire L. H. Stew. How long were you there Robinson Three weeks or a month L. H. Stew. What was your Employment there Robinson Nothing at all I followed no Employment Mr. Treby What kind of servant were you then L. H. Stew. Come do you know Dugdale Robinson Yes L. H. Stew. How long have you known him Robinson I have known him about five years L. H. Stew. What say you to him Robinson I say I met Mr. Dugdale about Midsummer was twelve-month in London about Charing-Cross and he carried me to the Harp and Ball and gave me Beer and Mum and such as the House did afford and treated me and asked me what made me so dejected and cast down I told him I was not well I was poorer than I used to be He told me again I should not want any money that he had and if I would please to be ruled by him and do what he would have me he would furnish me with money And he took his Handkerchief out of his pocket and bid me if I wanted take money there I took none but told him I would not meddle nor make with any thing that night Then he told me he could furnish me with money and put me in a way to get money if I would come in as an Evidence against my Lord Stafford L. Stafford Be pleased to ask him for I never saw the man before nor heard of him till last week what he should say against me and whether he knew me or not L. H. Stew. Did he tell you what you should say against my Lord Stafford Robinson Nothing at all my Lords L. Staff Did he say any thing or nothing Or did he ask whether he knew me or not L. H. Stew. Did you tell him you knew my Lord Stafford Robinson No if it please you I told him I did not know him L. H. Stew. And after you said you did not know him he offered you money to swear against him Did he Robinson Yes my Lords he did so to come in as an Evidence against him L. Staff Will your Lordships please to ask how much money there was in the Handkerchief L. H. Stew. How much money was in the Hankerchief Robinson I believe there might be eight or nine or ten pounds L. H. Stew. Did he offer you all the money or bid you take some Robinson He bid me take some L. H. Stew. Did he make any agreement with you for what yon should take Robinson No not at all my Lords Mr. Foley Did he see Dugdale any more or was there an end of it then Robinson No I saw him no more L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions Sir W. Jones We shall have occasion to speak of him we desire he would not go away when our time comes Then another Witness stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness John Morrall L. H. Stew. What are you Morrall A Barber L. H. Stew. Where do you live Morrall At Ridgley L. H. Stew. Where is that Morrall In Staffordshire within six miles of Stafford L. H. Stew. What do you ask him L. Stafford Whether Dugdale did not perswade him to swear against some of the Lords in the Tower L. H. Stew. Do you know Dugdale Morrall Yes my Lords I have known him twelve or thirteen years L. H. Steward What can you say against him Morrall My Lords this Mr. Dugdale the 6. of August last was twelve-month sent for
Oates to produce it but yet in point of Evidence if he will not swear it to be a true Copy or give an account how he came by it we cannot allow it to be read L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford 'T is you that want this Paper you desire to have the benefit of the Examination that was taken of Mr. Oates and therefore you must produce a Copy of it Lord Stafford My Lords I could never get it L. H. Stew. 'T is not entred in our Journal nor is it to be traced we know not where it is You have had time enough to look after it You are now offered by Oates himself a Copy that was given him for a true Copy though he can't swear by whom Are you content that shall be read if the Gentlemen will admit it Lord Stafford By what I guess of Dr. Oates I know him not he would not give in a Copy of an Examination unless it were true if it be true I know not what should hinder the reading of it but as far as concerns me I desire it may be read L. H. Stew. You do Consent and will you Gentlemen permit it Mr. Serjeant Maynard We do not know whence it comes we can't admit it unless Oates says 't is true Sir William Jones My Lords it hath been long in the Doctors possession he hath read it over he can't say 't is a true Copy but I desire to ask him whether all in that writing be true and whether he did swear what is in that writing L. H. Stew. If your Lordships please thus and you Gentlemen of the House of Commons The best way to have an answer to this Question is that it may be read de bene esse Sir Fran. Winn. Pray my Lords let him read it over to himself privately and then let us know whether he can swear the same things that are in that Paper which Dr. Oates began to do Dr. Oats Your Lordships ask only as to my Lord Stafford L. H. Stew. My Lord desires no more but pray read it over all and give your Answer to all for that Question may be will be asked in other Cases and 't is fit you should be provided for it which he did L. H. Stew. What say you Doctor Dr. Oats My Lords I do verily believe I did swear the Contents of that Paper L. Stafford My Lords I do not oppose the reading of that Paper but I have here a Copy of something in the Journal and do not stand upon my memory but I think upon the viewing of it now there is something in the Copies of the Journal Clerks We cannot find it L. Stafford Then read this Paper L. H. Steward Will you have this Copy of the Examination read or not L. Stafford Yes my Lords Clerk The Examination of Titus Oats Clerk taken before us L. H. Stew. When was that Clerk The 24. of October 1678. L. H. Steward That was read the 25. the next day in the House of Lords The Examination of Titus Oats Clerk taken by us the 24. of October 1678. THis Examinant saith That in the Month of May last this Examinant saw a Patent under the Seal of the Father general of the Society of Jesus at Rome called Johannes Paulus Oliva at the Chamber of Mr. Langhorn wherein it was expressed That by vertue of a Breve from the Pope he did Constitute the Lord Arundel of Wardour Lord High Chancellor of England which Patent was sent to the Lord Arundel of Wardour by a Messenger who was the Son of Mr. Langhorn And this Examinant saith That he saw a Letter subscribed by the Lord Arundell of Wardour as he believes wherein the Lord Arundel did acknowledge the receipt of the said Patent and accepted of the same and promised to answer the expectation of the Society This Examinant saith That in June last he saw the like Patent wherein the Lord Powis was Constituted Lord Treasurer of England which Patent was carried by one Parsons Secretary to the Lord Powis from one Saunders House in Wild-street to be delivered to the Lord Powis and at the delivery of the Patent 3001 was paid by Parsons to Fenwick and Ireland to carry on the design of the Jesuits which was to raise a Rebellion in the three Kingdoms and to destroy the King In the Month of July this Examinant saw a Letter subscribed Powis and directed to Fenwick wherein his Lordship did acknowledge the receipt of the said Patent and did accept of the same and said he had 300 Men and Horse ready for the Design and that his Lordship would venture his life and fortune in the Affair In the month of August last this Examinant saw a Letter directed to Mr. Langhorn by the outside but within to the Society of the Jesuits wherein Sir William Godolphin acknowledged he had received the like Patent to be Lord Privy Seal and had accepted thereof and in July 1677. this Examinant saw the same in the hands of the Archbishop of Tuam at Madrid in Spain This Examinant saith that in July last Mr. Coleman ackowledged and confessed to Fenwick in this Examinants presence that he had received the like Patent to be Secretary of State and that it was a good exchange This Examinant saith that in May June July and August last this Examinant saw several Letters signed Stafford whereby it appeared that the Lord Stafford was in this Conspiracy against His Majesty and that he had returned several Sums of Mony to the Jesuits to carry on the Design the Letters were directed to Fenwick and Ireland and in August last this Examinant saw another Letter directed to the same persons signed Stafford wherein my Lord writ that although he had sent his Son to Lisbon yet he would be ne'r the worse friend to the Jesuits and this Examinant conceiveth the Reason of that Letter was because there was then a difference between the English Colledge at Lisbon and the Jesuits in July last this Examinant saw in the hands of Fenwick a Commission directed to the Lord Bellasis from the person aforesaid to be Lord General of the Army to be raised in England against His Majesty and in July this Examinant saw a Letter from my Lord directed to Fenwick wherein his Lordship acknowledged the receipt of the Commission and thanked the Society for the same and that he accepted the same and would do what in him lay to answer their expectations In May last this Examminant saw a Patent in the hands of Mr. Langhorn to make my Lord Petres Lieutenant-General of the Army and in June last this Examinant did hear my Lord Petres in the presence of Mr. Longworth his Confessor acknowledge the receipt of the same and that he accepted thereof and his Confessor wished him much joy thereof Lord Stafford My Lords if this be owned for truth that he swore then I proceed upon the Evidence of that L. H. Stew. Without allowing it to be a true Copy Dr. Oats at
to any one but I have no more to say to him now There is a third Witness one Turbervill I desire to ask him a Question L. H. Stew. Call Turbervill who stood up Lord Stafford I desire to know what time he came to serve my Lady Molineaux for it is in the beginning of the Information in the House of Commons that he came in the year 73. and how long he staid with her L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford if your Lordship please there was an offer made to you that those Affidavits should be produced if you desired to see them L. Stafford I think I shall have no occasion as yet it may be I may by and by But I desire to ask him this Question first whether he did not say he came in the year 73. into my Lady Mary Molineaux her Service and staid with her about three years L. H. Stew. Did he swear in the year 73. he came L. Stafford 'T is so in his Narrative in Print L. H. Stew. Do you own that Narrative in Print for true Mr. Turbervill No my Lords L. H. Stew. How can you challenge him then with a Narrative he does not own L. Stafford Then what can a man do if he must not go according to what is Printed Mr. Turbervill There is a mistake in the Printing of it there is a mistake of 73. for 72. L. Stafford I now desire that Affidavit may be produced L. H. Steward Pray let him have the benefit that was offered him of the Affidavit Mr. Turbervill Besides I declared I could not be positive to a year I own any thing else in it L. Stafford Then my Lords if I shall have fellows that will not swear to Months nor to years I beg of your Lordships to know whether these be legal Witnesses Managers The Affidavit is in the Custody of Sir William Poulteney a Member of our House Sir Will. Poulteney My Lords I have the Affidavit if you please I shall give you an account what I did upon it and Sir Thomas Stringer another Justice of Peace My Lords after that Mr. Turbervill had given his Evidence to the House of Commons Vivavoce he tendred to them this Information that I have in my hand The House of Commons after it had been read thought it might be convenient to have it sworn to before two Justices of Peace Whereupon Sir Thomas Stringer and my self withdrew into the Speakers Chamber Mr. Turbervill came to us we read over the Information to him again and after we had read it over it was signed and he swore it In this Information when we then took it he declared there that he came to my Lord Powis in the year 1673 and came into England 1676. After we had sworn him we carried this Information into the House again The next morning my Lords he came to me I being one of the Justices that had sworn him and told me that searching among his Papers the last night for a Letter which he had said he had received from my Lord Stafford sent to Diep though he could not find the Letter he looked for yet he found that the precise time that he went to live with my Lord Powis was 1672 and the precise time of his coming into England was 1675. And he desired me to acquaint the House of Commons with it that this Circumstance of time might be altered Whereupon my Lords I did acquaint the House of Commons with it how he was mistaken in that point of a Circumstance of time and that he came of his own accord and desired me to move the House in it I moved the House and they did direct we should withdraw again and take his Information again and that he should amend it he amended it and made the 73 72 and the 76 75 and then afterwards we swore him to it again de novo and this is the matter of Fact concerning the Affidavit L. H. Stew. Sir William Poultney Did Mr. Turbervill correct the mistake himself first or was it found and altered by others Sir William Poultney My Lords he came to me for I did not know any thing of it that he was mistaken but he came to me the next morning assoon as ever I came to the House before indeed I entred into the House and told me of the mistake and told me the reasons how he came to recollect himself and find out the mistake L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill I would ask you the Question how came you to be informed that you had mistaken your self Mr. Turbervill My Lords I 'll tell you I was searching for a Letter which I received from my Lord Stafford and missing that I found my Discharge I had from the French Army wherein I saw my mistake as to the time and that I have to produce L. H. Stew. I ask you again by the Oath you have taken did you correct it of your self or by information from any other Mr. Turbervill By the Oath I have taken I did correct it of my self and no body moved it to me Mr. Serj. Mayn It was but a Circumstance of time Sir Fran. Winn. And corrected by himself the very next morning my Lords L. Stafford He does acknowledge he did forswear himself once and did make himself an honest man the next day when he was a perjured Villain the day before And now he tells your Lordships that he was searching for a Letter that I sent to him but he cannot find it Mr. Turbervill No my Lords I thought I had it but I cannot find it L. Stafford No I 'le swear thou canst not But then he does say that he had a Discharge from the French Army Mr. Turbervill Yes 't is here my Lord. L. H. Stew. Is that the Paper of your Discharge Mr. Turbervill Yes it is 'T is worn out a little and torn but the Seal is preserved I did not know that ever I should have occasion to make use of it but my Lord Challenging me for a Coward and a Deserter of my Colours L. Stafford I say so still for I have heard so L. H. Stew. Your Honour is not in question Mr. Turbervill Mr. Turbervill The Title is a little torn and if your Lordships please I will read it which he did being in French and is rendred in English in these words THis certifieth to all to whom it shall appertain that I have given an absolute Discharge to the Sieur Turbervill a Cavalier of my Company after having served the space of six months with all Honour and Fidelity Therefore I desire those that are to be desired to treat him Civilly and let him pass and re-pass without doing him any Injury or giving him any hindrance But on the contrary to afford him all Aid and Assistance where it shall be necessary promising the like upon all occasions that shall require it In Confirmation of which I have for him signed this present Discharge and thereto put the Seal of my Arms to
serve him in case he shall need it Made at the Camp before Air this 4. of August 1676. Sheldon L. H. Steward What is the date of that Discharge Turbervill Mr. Turbervill 'T is in August 76. L. Stafford May I see it my Lords L. H. Stew. Yes deliver it to my Lord which was done and he looked upon it L. Stafford The thing looks like truth but there is no proof of it Mr. Turbervill The Seal is a little broke but the Name remains perfect L. Stafford He says here is a dismission from the Army in 76. how will that rectifie this mistake about 73. I understand not that Then the Court called for the Paper and it was looked upon by the Duke of Monmouth and some other Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this Paper hath been looked upon the Hand is well known by those that should know it L. Stafford I do not say the contrary L. H. Stew. Whereabouts are you now my Lord then L. Stafford I am extreamly faint and weary that I am sure of This Gentleman told you yesterday that he spoke with me several times in France and that he was conversant with me for a fortnight together that he visited me and I proposed the Killing of the King to him and that he refused to give me an Answer then but told me he would give it me at Diep This he said yesterday as I remember And afterwards when he was gone down he came up again and desired to put your Lordships in mind of a particular Circumstance which he said he did remember That when he came to me I had the Gout and was in a lower Room of the House in such a Street which faced Luxenburgh House all which I stand not upon and that the Prince of Conde lived in the same Street on the left hand he said first and after on the right hand and after he knew not where and that I did lodge in the same Street Mr. Turbervill I did say I believed the Prince of Conde lived there but was not positive L. Stafford No but first he swears a thing and then only believes it Be pleased to call my Servants to know if ever I had my Foot ill of the Gout in my life Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship told me it was the Gout Lord Stafford If ever I put my Foot on a Stool or was lame there I will own all that he says But when a man swears his Evidence and goes down from the place and then invents and comes up again to tell new stories who shall believe such a man Mr. Turbervill I never went from the Bar. Lord Stafford I do say yâ—â— went down and had given all your Evidence and came up again and told this Circumstance I have not been lame not one moment these forty years and yet this Fellow this impudent Fellow to say that I was lame and put my Foot on a Stool He does not my Lords swear positively in any thing but this and this I can easily disprove in him L. H. Steward What say you to this particular Turbervill Had my Lord Stafford never the Gout while he was in France Mr. Turbervill He told me it was the Gout my Lords He had a great lameness he could not go from one place to another Here are several people to give Testimony that my Lord was lame within less time than he says Mr. Foley Hold hold Turbervill you must not give that Evidence now L. Stafford Call Nicholas Furnese again L. H. Steward What do you call him for L. Stafford Ask whether ever he saw Mr. Turbervill with me in France L. H. Stew. Were you with my Lord Stafford all the while he was in France Furnese Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you never see Turbervill there Furnese No. L. H. Stew. Pray did you never see Father Anthony Turbervill there Furnese No my Lords I never heard of his Name L. Stafford Was I ever one moment lame while I was in France Furnese Not that I remember L. H. Stew. How long was my Lord there Furnese About three Months L. H. Stew. What time of the year Furnese At Paris in October and November in December at Rohan in January we came over into England L. Stafford Ask him if ever I put my Foot upon a Cushion or upon a Stool for lameness Lord. High Steward Mr. Turbervill did you ever see Furnese when you were in France Mr. Turbervill This Man my Lords L H. Stew. Yes Mr. Turbervill No not that I remember L. H. Stew. In what quality did you serve my Lord in France Furnese Furnese My Lords I waited on him in his Chamber L. H. Stew. Do you remember any other Servant of my Lords that you did see there Mr. Turbervill Truly my Lords I don't remember I might forget him Lord Stafford So I believe thou dost me too Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship that could call me Coward may say any thing L. Stafford You shall be as valiant as Hector if you will Pray call my other Boy Who stood up L. H. Stew. You little Boy were you all the while with my Lord that he was in France Leigh Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Turbervill there Leigh No my Lords not that I know of L H. Stew. Had my Lord the Gout in France Leigh No nor never had since I have been with him L. H. Stew. That is six years Leigh Seven years almost my Lords L. H. Stew. Are you sure of that Leigh I am sure of it L. Stafford Now my Lords Mr. Turbervill says I writ him a Letter to Diep which Letter he can't find I beseech you what were the Contents of the Letter L. H. Stew. What were the Contents of the Letter my Lord sent you Mr. Turberv The Contents of the Letter were that I should not stay at Diep in expectation of him for he had appointed a Yatcht to come to Calice but I should make what haste I could to London and there I should meet with him L. Stafford I desire to ask whether I sent him word that Count Gramont came over with me Mr. Turbervill Yes my Lords to the best of my remembrance L. Stafford I shall now bring Witnesses that I did not come by Calice but by Diep and Count Gramont came not with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill which way came you from Diep or from Calice Mr. Turbervill From Diep my Lords L. Stafford And I came from Diep too L. H. Stew. My Lord came that way too he says Mr. Turbervill I know not of it he sent me word otherwise L. Stafford I shall now prove what I say pray call Mr. Wyborne VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord L. Stafford Whether he did not see me at Diep and embark from thence for England Mr. VVyborne My Lords I will give you an Account as well as I can In the year 75. in December I had occasion to go over into France upon my own Concerns and
enquiring where there was a conveniency to go over I heard that a Yatcht was sending to Diep for my Lord Stafford and Mr. Henry Sidney His Majesties Envoy Extraordinary now in Holland I took that occasion and we weighed Anchor on Friday the 24. of December and it being foul weather and we being tossed long upon the Sea we did not come to an Anchor before Diep till Sunday was sevennight at Two a Clock in the Afternoon which was January 2. Then I came with the Captain immediately ashoar to enquire for my Lord and Mr. Sidney I enquired for my Lord and they told me he was at Rohan expecting to hear of the arrival of the Yatcht upon which the Captain desired me to write a Letter to my Lord and I did so upon sight of which Letter he came to Diep on Tuesday in the Afternoon which was as I take it the 4. of January and we were at the Bastile there then together when he came that evening and the next day I went on my own occasions to Paris and my Lord and Mr. Sidney did come over together in the Yatcht L. Stafford If you please I will call my two Servants again to this matter Lord. High Steward Call them my Lord. Then Furnese and Leigh stood up Lord High Steward Which way came my Lord Stafford out of France into England by Diep or by Calice Furnese By Diep L. H. Steward What say you Boy which way came my Lord Leigh By Diep my Lords L. H. Steward You came with him Leigh Yes we did L. H. Stew. My Lord The Question is not whether you came by Calice or no but whether you writ a Letter to him to Diep that you would go by Calice Lord Stafford He swore yesterday that I did come by Calice L. H. Stew. Do you say my Lord came by Calice Mr. Turbervill My Lords I had a Letter from his Lordship which he wrote to me that he would come by Calice L. Stafford He did not name the Letter yesterday nor is 't in the Information L. H. Stew. Read the Affidavit The Information of Edward Turbervill of Skerr in the County of Glamorgan Gent. WHo saith That being a younger Brother about the Year 1672 he became Gentleman Usher to the Lady Mary Molineaux Daughter to the Earl of Powis and by that means lived in the House of the said Earl about three Years and by serving and assisting at Mass there grew intimate with William Morgan Confessor to the said Earl and his Family who was a Jesuit and Rector over all the Jesuits in North-Wales Shropshire and Staffordshire And he during the three years time often heard the said Morgan tell the said Earl and his Lady that the Kingdom was in a high Fever and that nothing but Blood-letting could restore it to Health and then the Catholick Religion would flourish Whereunto the said Earl many times replied It was not yet time but he doâ—â—ted not but such means should be used in due time or words to that effect And he heard the Lady Powis tell the said Morgan and others publickly and privately That when Religion should be restored in England which she doubted not but would be in a very short time she would persuade her Husband to give 300 l. per annum for a Foundation to maintain a Nunnery and this Informant was persuaded by the Lady Powis and the said Morgan to become a Fryar the said Lady enâ—ouraging this Informant thereunto by saying that if he would follow his Studies and make himself capable she questioned not but he might shortly be made a Bishop by her Interest in England because upon Restauration of the Catholick Religion there would want People fit to make Bishops and to do the Business of the Church and thereupon she gave this Informant Ten Pounds to carry him to Doway where this Informant entred the Monastery and continued about three weeks and with much difficulty made his escape thence and returned for England for which the said Earl and his Lady and all the rest that encouraged him to go to the Monastery became his utter Enemies threatning to take away his Life and to get his Brother to disinherit him which last is compassed against him And Father Cudworth who was than Guardian of the Fryars at Doway some days before his escape thence told this Informant That if he should not persevere with them he should lose his life and friends And further added That this King should not last long and that his Successor should be wholly for their purpose And Father Cross Provincial of the Fryars told this Informant That had he been at Doway when this Informant made his escape thence he should never have come to England And this Informant finding himself friendless and in danger in England went to Paris where one of his Brothers is a Benedictine Monk who persuaded this Informant to return for England and in order thereunto about the latter end of November 1675. he was introduced into the acquaintance of the Lord Stafford that he might go for England with his Lordship and three weeks he attended his Lordship and had great access and freedom with his Lordship who gave him great assurances of his Favour and Interest to restore him to his Relations esteem again And said That he had a piece of service to propose to this Informant that would not only retrieve his Reputation with his own Relations but also oblige both them and their Party to make him happy as long he lived And this informant being desirous to embrace so happy an Opportunity was very inquisitive after the means but the said Lord Stafford being somewhat difficult to repose so great a Trust as he was to communicate to him exacted all the Obligations and Promises of secresie which this Informant gave his Lordship in the most solemn manner he could invent Then his Lordship laboured to make this Informant sensible of all the advantages that would accrue to this Informant and the Catholick Cause and then told this Informant in direct terms that he might make himself and the Nation happy by taking away the Life of the King of England who was a Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty Of which this Informant desired his Lordship to give him time to consider and told his Lordship that he would give him his Answer at Diep where his Lordship intended to ship for England and to take this Informant with him but this Informant going before to Diep the Lord Stafford went with Count Gramont by Calice and sent this Informant orders to go for England and to attend his Lordship at London but this Informant did not attend his Lordship at London but went into the French service and so avoided the Lord Stafford's further importunities in that Affair And this Informant further saith That one Remige a French woman and vehement Papist who married this Informants Brother lived with the Lady Powis all the time this Informant resided there
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
made intercession by Friends to my Sister and she told me that she gave him 7 l. to bear his Charges to Paris with that Proviso that he would never trouble them more L. H. Stew. But were they not angry with him Mr. J. Turbervill Here he is he cannot say they ever gave him an angry word in their days I 'm sure I never did L. H. Stew. Did you not forbid him the House Mr. J. Turbervill No. Mr. Edw. Turbervill These are people that take not the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and therefore are not fit to be Witnesses L. Stafford Now your Lordships see what a Villain he is Mr. Serj. Maynard You must give good words my Lord for none but good words are given you Lord Stafford I must call them Villâ—ius or my self Traitor L. H. Steward You say they gave him 7 l. upon condition they should never see him more Mr. J. Turbervill I did not say my Sister said upon condition she would give him 7 l. he would never trouble us more it was his Declaration Lord Stafford One thing I wâ—â—ld ask Mr. Turbervill more and that is about this man's being disinherited Whether he could or whether he was Heir to any Estate or not L. H. Steward What say you to it Mr. J. Turbervill By all the Information of our Relations the Estate was made by my Grand-father to my Father for life and after my Fathers life to my Mothers and after my Mothers life to my Eldest Brother and the Heirs males of his Body and for want of such afterwards to me and the Heirs males of my Body and in case I had none then to my Fathers Brother and his Heirs males and if he had no Heirs males then after that to the right Heirs of the Grand-father This was before my time L. H. Stew. Well then that Remainder to the right Heirs might come to him and so there was some Estate for him to lose and that Remainder might be docked by the Tenant in Tail I would ask Was there any Recovery suffered to bar that Intail Mr. J. Turbervill Yes I think there was one upon my Brothers Marriage L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Were you told you should be disinherited Mr. E. Turbervill Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Who told you so Mr. E. Turbervill My eldest Brother L. H. Stew. What did he tell you Mr. E Turbervill He told me it should not come to me L. H. Stew. How should it come to you Mr. E. Turbervill I am not so good a Lawyer as to tell that whether it could or no but I thought by Succession Lord Stafford Then he says he came to serve my Lady Mullineux in 72. it may be it is so as he says I don't know it of my own knowledge but I pray he may answer whether it was in 71 or 72. Mr. J. Turbervill In January or February 71. Mr. Treby That is the beginning of the year 72 according to the Almanack L. Staff My Lords for the present I do not remember any thing more Oh yes my Lords he says he was at such a time at my Lord Powis's when my Lord Castlemain was at Powis-Castle which must be either in the year 72 73 or 74. Now I desire you would ask Mr. Lydcot whether my Lord Castlemain was there or could be there in any of those years Then Lydcot stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord Lord Stafford I desire to ask him whether in the year 72 73 or 74. which are the years Turbervill says he was at my Lord Powis's at Powis-Castle whether my Lord Castlemain was at Powis-Castle or could be there at that time L. H. Stew. Was my Lord Castlemain there in any of those years Lydcot My Lords I can prove he was not as much as I am capable of proving a Negative I was with him in the years 72 73 and 74. L. H. Steward Where Lydcot He was in England in 73. I was with him all the while and I am sure since I knew him he was never in Wales and I was never absent from him since I knew him which is nine years not four months in all I have travelled with him and been abroad with him L. H. Stew. Turbervill When do you say my Lord Castlemain was at Powis Castle Mr. Turbervill I think it was in the year 73. L. H. Stew. By what Token do you remember him there Mr. Turbervill He was arguing with my Lord Powis about Religion and several times he did so I believe it was in the year 73. L. H. Stew. What say you to that Lydcot I can assure your Lordships he was not there then I was always with him that year he had many times a design to go there but he could not but put it off and the last time he was there I can prove it was fifteen years ago L. H. Stew. I desire to know of you this Friend can you take it upon you to affirm upon the Faith of a Christian that you were never from my Lord Castlemain all the year 73 Lydcot I can give an account to half a week where he was And when I was absent from him it was beyond Sea and all that while I kept Correspondence with him every Post and received Letters from him constantly once a week dated from Liege This was in the time of my absence L. H. Stew. Were you at Liege when my Lord was in England or were you with him all the time that he was in England Lydcot My Lords I was with him all the time he was in England and was never absent from him all that compass of time but when he sent me into England from Liege L. H. Stew. Then he was at Liege himself Lydcot Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Was that in the year 73 Lydcot Yes my Lords I was then in England But my Lords I can give you an whole account for my Lord and I never made any Journeys but I put them down L. H. Steward You say you can give a particular account of the whole year 73. even to the compass of four days in that year at most Lydcot No my Lords I do not say so but I say I can give an account of the whole time I have been with him within four months L. H. Stew. Were any of those months within the year 73 Lydcot No I was with him all the year 73. L. H. Stew. Will you take it upon you to say That every day in 73. you were with my Lord Lydcot Every day my Lords L. H. Stew. Every week Lydcot Yes I do not think but that I was My Lord did me the honour to make me as it were his Companion Mr. Serj. Maynard No you do your self the honour to make your self his Companion he made you his Servant L. H. Steward Come where are your Notes you pretend to speak by your Diary or your Journal let us hear a whole account of the year 73. for you come to testifie as if
Lord. High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we do Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned in their former Order to their House and the Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and a Message from the Lords was sent by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have Ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to his Tryal at the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock The Fourth Day Friday December 3. 1680. ABout the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before mentioned The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to the Prisoner as followeth L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford your Lordships Defence took up yesterday All the day was employed in hearing your Lordships Witnesses to impeach the Credit of the Testimony that hath been given against you Your Lordship hath excepted against Dugdale because you were not at Tixall as he says you were neither the latter end of August nor the beginning of September till the Twelfth and when you were there you never sent for him to your Chamber but your Man upon his own desire brought him and when he came there the business was to desire you to get leave that he might go to the Race and there was no opportunity of private Discourse because your Men were in the Room all the while That Dugdale hath often said he knew nothing of the Plot that he swore falsly when he said he told of the Letter about the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey before it was known he was killed and when he said that Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went over which was three years before Hobson came to my Lord Aston's Service Your Lordship hath likewise objected that he hath corrupted persons to swear falsly against you and others as Robinson the Upholsterer against your Lordship Morrall the Barber against Sir James Symons and Holt the Blacksmith to swear that one Moor carried away Evers Your Lordship hath endeavoured to discredit Oats by his saying he knew nothing of any other persons that were concerned in the Plot and after accusing the Queen Your Lordship hath Impeached the Credit of Turbervill by proving that you came home by Diep and not by Calice as he says you did That you had never the Gout while you were in France nor as your Page says for these seven years That my Lord Castlemain was not at my Lord Powis's in the year 73. and there you left off This I take is the Sum of what your Lordship says if I do you any wrong your Lordship will put me in mind of it L. Stafford I thank your Lordship you have done it with great Equity and Truth L. H. Stew. Then go on L. Stafford The next Witness that I call is one John Porter Who stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness John Porter L. H. Stew. What Profession are you of Porter A Butler L. H. Stew. To whom Porter To my Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships would ask him what Mr. Turbervill said about the Plot. L. H. Stew. I will ask him all the Questions your Lordship desires I should ask him Mr. Foley We desire to know what Religion he is of L. Stafford I desire your Lordships would ask him that Question and not the Managers L. H. Stew. They will tell me their Questions my Lord and I will ask them L. Staff They ask him my Lords and not you L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Porter A Church of England man my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard The Popish Church of England I believe L. Stafford Pray my Lords let not this be when my Witness says he is of the Church of England they cry he is of the Popish Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray good my Lord we are silent when you ask him proper Questions and make no Remarks we do not speak it to the Court we may say what we will among our selves I hope L. Staff I may ask impertinent Questions because I do not understand so well as these Gentlemen But I pray they may not deal thus with me L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall ask what Questions you please L. Stafford Pray ask him what Mr. Turbervill said to him about his knowledge of the Plot. L. H. Stew. What did Turbervill say to you about his knowing of the Plot Porter About a year since when I served my Lord Powis as Butler there he was used to come and see me it was not at my Lords House but he sent for me to a Victualling-House L. H. Stew. That was the last year Porter Yes L. H. Stew. What time of the Year Porter It was about Twelve Months ago I cannot say positively the time L. H. Stew. Was it Winter or Summer Porter He hath been both I can't be positive which I believe he hath been there 40 times L. H. Stew. In the year 80 or 79 Porter In the year 79. L. H. Stew. What did he say Porter He came there and asked me how my Lord Powis did and said he was extremely troubled that he was in that Affliction for he did verily believe that neither he nor the rest of the Lords were in the Plot and the Witnesses that swore against him he believed were perjured and could not believe any thing of it L. H. Stew. Have you any more to say Porter Yes my Lords I told him if there were such a thing as a Plot he having been beyond Sea must certainly know of it he told me as he hoped for Salvation he knew nothing of it neither directly nor indirectly against the Kings Sacred Person nor the Subversion of the Government And he further said Although I am a little low at present and my Friends will not look upon me yet I hope God Almighty will never leave me so much as to let me swear against innocent Persons and forswear and damn my self L. H. Stew. Where was this said to you Porter At the Ship Alehouse in Lincolns Inn Fields one time another time at the Kings Head Tavern in the Strand and another time at the Golden Ball in the Strand L. H. Stew. Was any body by besides your self Porter Not at that time but there is a Gentleman in Court that can testifie that he said such things at other times L. H. Stew. What say you to this Turbervill Mr. Turbervill I say 't is all false But if your Lordships please I 'll tell you what I said once I did conceive my Lord Powis was
have said or done I own what is entred as my Oath before your Lordships and am ready to answer it but I am not bound to say what does not at all concern this business L. Stafford I say my Lords 't is entred upon your Lordships Books that he did swear at the Council he was at Madrid with Don John of Austria I would know of him whether he did so Dr. Oats My Lords I would have my Lord to propose the Question to the Court of Peers L. H. Steward Have you sworn any thing of Don John of Austria Dr. Oats My Lords I refer my self to the Council Book L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may have that Book L. H. Steward I believe it is in the Narrative turn to the Journal you have that mentioned there To which the Clerk turned but it could not be sound L. H. Stew. If you will not acknwledge it we must stay till the Book be brought Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please I will repeat as well as I can what was said at the Council Table but I had rather the Council Book were fetched because I am upon my Oath but my Lords I always thought the Council Book is no Record upon any man L. Stafford I desire it may be produced or he own that he said so Lord High Steward What you said at the Council Table you said upon your Oath and 't is lawful to lay it before you Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please as to what was said at the Council Table if my Lord will bring any one Viva voce to swear what was said by me there that will make something L. H. Stew. That may be material as he says That your Lordship should bring some body to swear he said so for the Clerks may mistake him L. Stafford If your Lordships please that the Book may be sent for I will make it out Sir W. Jones It could not be read if it were here L. H. Stew. If the Clerks will swear what is in the Books it may Sir W. Jones But whether the Clerks will take that upon them or no may be Question Lord. High Steward Go on in the mean time L. Stafford I cannot conclude with him without it L. H. Stew. Where is the Council Book For the Clerks inform me 't is not in their custody but the Gentlemen of the House of Commons have been attended with the Book and other Papers relating to it L. Stafford In the mean time give me leave to say something though perhaps it may be nothing to the purpose Mr. Yalden was just now going down ' and Turbervill threatned to lay him by the Heels L. H. Stew. If he did so 't is a Misdemeanor and he must be punished for it Call Yalden and Turbervill L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Have you dared or threatned Yalden the Witness to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill I did not speak any such words to him Mr. Dugdale was just by me all the while L. Stafford I tell you but what he said and what I can prove by Witness pray call Yalden Mr. Turbervill This Gentleman Captain Scudamore stood by me too L. H. Stew. But I ask you upon this Misdemeanor Whether you threatned Yalden to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill My Lords I stood by Mr. Dugdale till he was gone down L. H. Stew. How could he lay him by the Heels By what Authority could he do it Mr. Turbervill I did not speak such a word upon my Oath L. Stafford Ask Yalden I am told he did L. H. Stew. I am afraid you are misinformed my Lord for he could not do it 't is not in his power L. Stafford He threatned he would Goal him but if you won't Examine it I submit to you Dr. Oats My Lords Yalden it seems calls us a Pack of Rogues that give Evidence for the King and here are Witnesses of it Yalden stood up L. H. Stew. Yalden were you threatned by Turbervill Yalden Yes I will tell you how I was threatned my Lords Mr. Turbervill pulls me by the Arm when I had given my Evidence and asked me if I knew him and bid me take care L. H. Stew. Do you call that a threatning Yalden My Lords I did not make this Complaint nor did I desire it should be made but speaking this in the Room some body carried it to my Lord. Mr. Turbervill My Lords now he hath done let me speak I pray Mr. Yalden did say in the hearing of Captain Scudamore who is here he had got a great many Clients here but you says he have got nothing but a pack of Rogues Yalden That is a mistake L. H. Stew. This is fine work But Gentlemen will you call Captain Scudamore now or will you stay till afterwards Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Mr. Turbervill desires it may be now and we do also desire it upon this occasion Captain Scudamore is a man of Quality and will give you a true account We did not think to have interposed in my Lord Stafford's Evidence but he having impeached our Witnesses of a Misdemeanor we conceive it fittest to clear it at this time Then Captain Scudamore was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Scudamore what are you called for Can you say any thing that happened between Turbervill and Yalden Captain Scudamore The Gentleman that is here that said he was one of Grays-Inn I do not know his Name L. H. Stew. 'T is Yalden Captain Scudamore I heard a Gentleman ask him if he came there to get Clients And he said I know nothing among you but Roguery L. Stafford Whereabouts did this Gentleman stand Captain Scudamore In the Passage Mr. Turbervill Here are five or six more that heard him say so Yalden That which I said was this That I might come hither for Practice but I did not come hither for Roguery L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford until such time as the Council-Book comes which may be sent for Will your Lordship proceed to something else L. Wharton My Lord Steward I humbly conceive That it was resolved in the Lords House the day before yesterday that no Book should be sent for out of the Court and it was done upon the Judgment of all the Judges of England Yalden My Lords They will not permit me to go down L. H. Stew. There is a strange Quarrel between you Witnesses and an Affectation of complaining one of another Let Mr. Yalden go down Sir W. Jones My Lords I would only acquaint your Lordships that the Council-Book that my Lord does make mention of was in the hands of our Clerk we did not know of it when it was first discoursed of but now understanding that here it is we desire it may be delivered in to any body that hath occasion for it L. H. Stew. Hand it in Which was done L. H. Stew. What day does your Lordship speak of L. Stafford The 28 29 or 30. of September Clerk Then this is not the Book
as for Dr. Perrot I never was at his Lodgings in my life and I never knew where he lay he hath been with me sometimes but I knew not that he was a Doctor But my Lords I desire I may not be ran down by these Fellows who do not speak a word true nor one tittle My Lords I have Witnesses in whose House Fenwick lay Call them and ask them if ever they knew me in their lives L. H. Stew. What kind of man was he Dr. Oats My Lords he is an ancient man he wears his own Hair L. H. Steward Is he a tall man or a low man Dr. Oats A lusty man L. Stafford Truly my Lords I never was at his house since I was born Dr. Oats My Lords I 'll tell your Lordships a Circumstance That Summer Don Francisco de Melos the Ambassador here was sick and I think he died of the Sickness Dr. Perrot was his Father Confessor I was waiting for Dr. Perrot some time for he promised to meet me at his Lodgings and this Gentleman the Prisoner at the Bar did come in there L. Staffo rd Where Dr. Oats Into Dr. Perrot's Lodging Dr. Perrot had a Kinsman there that waited on him and when my Lord came in he was in haste to speak with Dr. Perrot and he offered me half a Crown to fetch Dr. Perrot to him and I made him this Reply I was no Porter L. Stafford If ever I saw this man in my life since I was born or heard of his Name till the Plot then I will confess my self guilty of all Indeed when first I heard of the Plot they said there was one Mr. Oats discovered it but I did not know any such man Dr. Oats I went by another Name and went in another Habit and my Lord Stafford though his memory be bad yet it can't be so bad but that he must remember something of me L. Stafford I don't remember you I never saw your face in my life L. H. Steward You would have given him half a Crown to have fetch'd Dr. Perrot L. Stafford It seems then at that time I took him for a poor Fellow that I should offer him a shilling or two Dr. Oats It is like I was but I refused your half Crown and told you I was no Porter L. Stafford My Lords I shall give you Evidence that he was a poor Fellow since he gives me occasion to prove it nay that he was so poor that he was brought down to accept of 6 d. I will prove it by the party that gave it now he puts me upon it But my Lords this Doctor Oats says he saw some of my Letters I desire to know what was in them Did he take any Notes What was in them L. H. Stew. Did you when you had a sight of these Letters at St. Omers take any Notes out of them Dr. Oats What Notes I did take if I did take any I have not now in being but I do not remember that I did take any Besides my Lords we could keep no Papers by us but what we communicated to our Superiours and therefore it was still their care to look after their Papers themselves and in that Circumstance of time if they had known I had taken Notes out of their Papers it would have been prejudicial to me and indangered my life L. Stafford My Lords I infer this one thing further upon what this Doctor Oats tells you He did seemingly profess himself of the Catholick Religion and I do stand upon it that hereupon he is no competent Witness in that which he offers against me For he being of the Church of England for I think he professes himself so and wears that Habit I say any man let him be who he will in the world Church of England man or other that shall pretend himself to be a Papist for what end soever it be that he so pretends and dissembles with God Almighty which he must do to a great height in receiving that Sacrament which is by your Lordships and the House of Commons declared to be gross Idolatry is not easily to be esteemed a Witness I appeal to your Lordships to the House of Commons and every body whether such a Fellow that will abhor his Religion let him do it for any ends in the world be a man to be credited and especially ingaging in such a way to such an height in that which his Conscience tells him is idolatrous is not a perjured Fellow and no compleat Witness No Christian but a Devil and a Witness for the Devil And I appeal to the whole Christian World if a Protestant of the Church of England should come to be a Servant to a Catholick and pretend himself a Papist and were not so whether he were fit to be countenanced as it did once happen to me at Brussels fore the King came in one that was a Protestant came to be my Footman and he professed himself afterwards to be a Catholick and when I found he was not so I told him what a Villain he was and he ought to be punished severely I detest such dissembling with God and I think by the Laws of God and Man and the Holy Scriptures such a perjured man is no Witness I am sorry I have troubled your Lordships so long But now if you please to give me leave my Lords I will give you my Reasons why I called him now when I did remember how he had dissembled with God Almighty as I said before I did consider with my self sure this Dr. Oats must have been ever since he hath returned of a very severe strict and sober life for a man that hath so dissembled with God ought to shew himself of an exemplary peaceful pious civil life to testifie the truth and reality of his Repentance But last night when I came home and was siting by the fire side extreamly weary my Daughter here comes in and asks me if I had heard what had passed between Dr. Oats and the Lieutenant how he called the Lieutenant Rascal and Goaler sure then said I to my self this is not the quiet civil sober man that such a one that hath lived as he hath done ought to be And this is the reason I speak of it that he should call him vile Names Goaler and Rascal it did not become a man of his Coat to do it whether it was so or no I do not know but Mr. Lieutenant I suppose will satisfie your Lordships L. H. Steward What did Oats say to you Mr. Lieutenant Mr. Lieuten My Lords I was desiring Mr. Oats that he would keep the people down because there was a great croud and seeing a great many people come in he told me they were Witnesses that were to come in said I I believe half of these are not Witnesses and the door opening so often I could keep this place in no order so I desired they would stand away that were not Witnesses why says he you are but a
Goaler then I told him if it were not for his Coat and I were out of this place I would break his head Then he called me Raskal L. Stafford My Lord Steward I desire to know whether this be a Witness fit to be believed against any man L. H. Stew. Mr. Oats this does not become you 't is very ill manners in you Dr. Oats My Lords the Lieutenant of the Tower hath the Law and I refer my self to the Law if I have done him any wrong Mr. Serj. Maynard It did not become Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to tell him he would break his head Mr. Lieutenant Why if any man out of the Court or in another Habit should tell me I was a Goaler I think I should not deserve to be the Kings Lieutenant if I did not break his Head Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray tell the Court so But yet under favour you ought not to threaten him for a word to break his head L. Stafford My Lords I do say this to your Lordships a man that hath dissembled with God Almighty in so high a nature as he ackowledges himself to have done ought to be a man of a very severe life afterwards and not so passionate and cholerick as it seems this fellow is L. H. Stew. Will your Lordship proceed L. Stafford For this man truly I shall say no more I think I have said enough to make him appear a person not fit to be believed I would only ask Stephen Dugdale a Question if you please 't is but a little I won't hold you long I only ask and if he deny it I 'le prove it whether he was not a Prisoner at Stafford for Debt when he made the first Affidavit L. H. Stew. Were you a Prisoner for Debt at Stafford when you made your first Affidavit Mr. Dugdale In the Serjeants hands I was my Lords L. Staff For a very great Debt my Lords some hundreds of pounds and he was a fellow not worth a Groat And my Lords Dr. Oats says I offered him half a Crown and he refused it I call Ellen Rigby to prove he was so poor he begg'd for six pence Dr. Oats I will save my Lord the trouble of proving any such thing My Lord Stafford says I was a poor man and had not six pence in my pocket I can make it appear to the House of Lords that sometime since I came in upon this Discovery I have not had two pence in my pocket and sometimes I have not had six pence but a mans Pȯverty is no objection against his Honesty L. Stafford Where is Ellen Rigby to prove whether she did not give him six pence But then my Lords pray ask him whether he did not swear at a former Tryal he had spent six or seven hundred pounds more than he got L. H. Stew. Did you say at a former Tryal you were five or six hundred pound out of purse Dr. Oats My Lords I will satisfie this House what I said what folks write after me I am not to justifie But my Lords I had a Friend of mine presented me with 100 l. I name not his Name but if that be questioned he is a Peer of this House and will justifie it I had 100 l. for my Narrative I had 100 l. for taking some Jesuits which is 300 l. I had for some other Copies that I printed a matter of 50 or 60 l. And now I can make it appear that as to those Sums which I received in gross I have spent them all and more in this Service for I have none of the money now by me L. Stafford He makes out but 350 l. and he swore he was out 700 l. but he does not swear one true tittle nor is any whit to be believed Dr. Oats If you expect I should prove it I can prove it now Managers Be quiet Dr. Oats we will do you right anon L. Stafford My Lords I do not know for the present that I have any thing else to trouble your Lordships with I remember these Gentlemen when I asked them if they had any more Evidence to give in said No unless I should give them some occasion and now I desire your Lordships if they bring any new Evidence that I may have time to answer it L. H. Stew. God forbid but you should have liberty to answer any Objection Sir W. Jones My Lords before we go about to sum up our Evidence we shall have occasion to call some Witnesses and that will be to fortifie what our Witnesses have said to discover what kind of Witnesses have been made use of against them and to falsifie what my Lords Witnesses have said in some particulars These will be the three Heads for which we desire to call Witnesses And because my Lords we will not trouble you with making one intire Narration of what they can say or to what purpose we call them before they come we desire the favour that we may acquaint your Lordships with it still as we call them for that we think will be the way more clearly to be understood My Lords we shall begin to make good by other Witnesses some things said by Mr. Dugdale for he was our first Witness and therefore in order of time we will first begin with him My Lords the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to object L. Stafford My Lords I would not interrupt him but I would ask whether there were more than two heads that he proceeds upon to fortifie their own Evidence and to falsifie mine Sir W. Jones My Lords I think we may comprehend all under those two heads But my Lords you observe one great matter my Lord did insist upon yesterday was this That he it is true hath seen Mr. Dugdale at my Lord Aston's though by the way I must say this my Lord at the first did not seem to know him L. Stafford I did not know him in his Peraiwig L. H. Stew. Do not interrupt them my Lord for they must have the same liberty that you had to go on without interruption Sir Will. Jones We must have the same freedom my Lord had I will do his Lordship that right he did afterwards recollect himself and say His Perriwig had made that alteration in him that he did not know him But my Lord was also pleased to say yesterday That though he did know him yet he looked upon him as so mean and inconsiderable a fellow that he did purposely avoid all discourse with him and that sometimes when he was a dry at my Lord Aston's he would not speak to him to help him nor to call one to help him to drink My Lord was pleased yesterday also to deny that ever he had any Converse with him but only that one time when indeed Mr. Dugdale did desire to make use of my Lord that by his interposition he might have leave to go to the Foot-Race My Lords your Lordships very well perceive we are now going about to prove a
whether I should be sworn or no for your Lordship shall not make me be sworn unless my Lords say I should L. H. Stew. I would not offer it if there were any colour of doubt in it Then my Lord was sworn E. of Maclesfeld My Lords I have nothing to say against this man but what he said to me and before a Justice of Peace too for I did take this man when he had run away from my Lord Gerard. He had cheated many of his Servants I catched him on the way running to play his tricks somewhere else and I intercepted him but though I was a Justice of Peace there yet because it was in a manner my own case I would not commit him till I had carried him before another Justice of Peace So the man comes up to me says he My Lord have you a mind to have your Son-in-law bubbled I have been only teaching him how to avoid being cheated I acknowledge my self to be a Cheat and I would teach him to avoid them I am going now into Staffordshire and that was all I intended to his Lordship I am a Rogue I confess it And upon this a Justice of Peace comes in and while they were examining of him we bid some that were by to search him and they found in his pocket false Dice and truly the Justice nor I did not know whether they were true or false Says he You don't know what to do with these but I do This is all I can say but in all the three Counties of Staffordshire Cheshire and Lancashire there are several men that I see here that know his Life better than I do for 't is his common practice and I believe my Lords the Judges must know him for it was his common practice at all Assizes and great Meetings to play these pranks Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will not trouble your Lordships any further as to Robinson if he were here perhaps my Lady would know him but having two such Witnesses I think we need not trouble our selves nor you any more about him L. H. Stew. Have you done with my Lady Gerard Sir Will. Jones Yes and we beg her pardon for this trouble My Lords your Lordships will be pleased to remember there was one Holt was produced as a Witness by my Lord Stafford and your Lordships when you look on your Notes will remember he testified to this purpose That Dugdale sent an Horse for him to Stafford-Town which Horse brought him to the Star-Inne and there Dugdale did offer him Forty pounds to swear That one Mr. Moor carried away Evers the Jesuit My Lords we will call some Witnesses to this Mr. Holt you will find him to be something akin to Mr. Robinson and as we suppose of nothing a better Reputation than he The Witnesses will give you an account of his pranks Call Sampson Rawlins and Lander Rawlins stood up and was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness Sampson Rawlins L. H. Stew. What do you ask him Sir William Jones We desire to ask him if he knows Samuel Holt the Black-smith L. H. Stew. Do you know Holt Rawlins Yes Sir Fr. Winn. Acquaint my Lords what Reputation he is of where he lives and what he is Rawlins He is counted to be a very lewd loose fellow L. H. Stew. Why so Sir Will. Jones What hath he done Rawlins He is counted a drunken lewd fellow Sir Will. Jones Is he of an ill Reputation in the Countrey where he lives Rawlins Yes he is so L. H. Stew. For what Rawlins 'T is said in the Town he keeps another mans wife Sir Will. Jones Is there any other fault he hath Rawlins He said there were none but Rogues would take Mr. Dugdale's part whereas I never knew any harm by Mr. Dugdale and I have known him this fourteen or fifteen years I dealt with him I was Taylor to the Family and he ever paid me very honestly and well Sir VV. Jones Have you heard of Mr. Holt any other ill thing besides what you speak of Rawlins He broke open my Lord Aston's Wine-celler and stole several bottles of Wine wherefore my Lord Aston bid Mr. Dugdale send him to the Goal but he curryed favour with Mr. Dugdale and so kept in with him that he afterwards begged for him of my Lord to forgive him And now he comes to Evidence against Mr. Dugdale that was his sure stedfast friend and saved him from the Goal L. Stafford I would ask this Witness a Question Rawlins And because I took Mr. Dugdale's part saying he was an honest man and he was so to me and all others as far as ever I heard he met me and would have murdered me L. H. Steward When was this Rawlins Since last Term when I was up here And likewise Sawyer took a pot and would have dong'd my brains out Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I think this man was summoned as a Witness to attend at my Lord Aston's Tryal What occasion brought you to London at that time Rawlins I was subpoena'd up And when I came home to my Wife and Children they grosly abused me and said I was a Rogue because I came up upon His Majesties Service L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Holt was my Lord Aston's Servant or no. L. H. Stew. Was Holt a Servant to my Lord Aston Rawlins He was a Smith hard by his Gate and he worked to the Family L. H. Stew. Were you subpoena'd up to the Tryal of my Lord Aston Rawlins Yes L. H. Steward And it was for coming to that Tryal he offered to murder you Rawlins Yes I have several Witnesses of it And by the blow that Thomas Sawyer gave me for a good while I could not lay my head on the Pillow Sir Will. Jones Call Thomas Launder but he did not appear being gone away sick Sir Will. Jones Because we would not lose your Lordships time seeing the man we call for is gone away sick we will call a Witness as to another of my Lords Witnesses John Morral Call Thomas Thorne Who was sworn Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords if that other man come by and by we hope your Lordships will give us leave to ask him a Question to the point which we are now gone over But my Lord Stafford did produce one John Morral a Barber that lived at Ridgley who said that money was offered him to swear against Sir James Symons and Mr. Howard and others We call this Witness to give your Lordships an account what this Morral is and how he hath behaved himself in this business Sir W. Jones What do you say about John Morral Do you know him Thorne Yes L. H. Stew. What do you know of him Thorne I know he is a man that use to come often to my Lord Aston's to Tixal to trim him he is a poor fellow that walks up and down the Country and hath little or nothing to live on L. H. Stew. Is he poor and needy
come over to make any discovery did burn a great many Letters and Papers that did relate to those proceedings and did not leave any thing remaining hoping thereby to prevent a discovery We will call Witnesses that were by when it was done and I think that will be some answer to this objection Call Elizabeth Eld and Anne Eld. Elizabeth Eld sworn Sir Fr. VVinn My Lords if your Lordships please we would ask her this general Question What she knows of Mr. Dugdale's burning a great many Letters and Papers at what place and about what time Elizabeth Eld. I cannot possibly say to the time I burnt some Writings for him when he went away he desired me to burn them he did not tell me what Writings they were He said the times were troublesome and if he should be sick upon the Road where he was going he would not have all his Papers seen but he desired me to burn them And I took and burnt them all but one Book and my Sister asked if that Book should be burnt he said no there was nothing of Treason in it I asked him if there were any thing of Treason in the others and he said Do you think there was Sir VV. Jones How long was this before he went away Elizabeth Eld. That morning when he went away Sir W. Jones How many Papers were there Elizabeth Eld. I cannot say how many Sir Will. Jones I do not ask you the number but the quantity was there a bushel Elizabeth Eld. I cannot say they were roll'd up and put in his Pockets and his Breeches L. H. Steward Were they Parchments or Papers Elizabeth Eld. They were Papers L. H. Steward Were they Letters Elizabeth Eld. I did not see what they were but they were wrapt up together they might be the Accompts of the House for what I know Sir Fr. Winn. But she says as I take it that Mr. Dugdale said there was Treason in them Elizabeth Eld. No he said Did I think there was He said it was no matter for burning that little Book there was no Treason in that and when I asked him if there was any in the others he said Do you think there was L. H. Steward Was it one or two bundles Elizabeth Eld. There were several bundles they were not tyed up but taken in handfuls and thrown into the fire Mr. Foley If my Lord Stafford will ask her no Question we will call up another Elizabeth Eld. My Lords I did see Mr. Dugdale take a glass of Cyder and I heard him say and wish it might be his Damnation and he might sink in the place where he stood if he knew any thing of the Plot. Sir W. Jones I pray what Religion are you of I don't ask you to disparage you Elizabeth Eld. A Roman Catholick L. H. Steward When was it that he said that Elizabeth Eld. When he was in Staffordshire Anne Eld was then sworn Mr. Foley Tell my Lords what you know of any Papers that were burnt by Mr. Dugdale or by his direction and at what time Anne Eld. Mr. Dugdale came to my Fathers house over night and the next morning before he went away he brought a great many Papers he had in his Breeches and in his Pockets bundled together and he desired us to burn them in the flame of a Candle L. H. Stew. Why did he desire you to burn them Anne Eld. He said the times were troublesome and being to travel he was to go to diverse places and if he were taken people would think him a Plotter having all those Papers about him L. H. Stew. Did he burn the Book at that time Anne Eld. No. L. H. Stew. Why not Anne Eld. I found that Book and asked him if that should be burnt he said no' lay that by it may do good seven years hence there is no Treason in it says my Sister to him Is there any Treason in the rest says he Do you think there is that was all Sir Will. Jones Not to trouble you longer my Lords upon this your Lordships will be pleased to remember yesterday my Lord Stafford was pleased to offer by way of Evidence as if Mr. Dugdale was a man of an ill Reputation in these particulars That he had defrauded my Lord Aston that he was a mean man run in arrear to my Lord and that being in necessity he became a fit instrument to give false Evidence We shall shew That Mr. Dugdale was a man of Estate that both before and since he came away from my Lord Aston he hath made it his business to desire my Lord to come to Accompt that he hath pressed him and that he does believe and hath reason so to believe that there is Money coming from my Lord Aston to him and that a considerable sum Now my Lords if we shall make it appear that he hath made it his business to come to Accompt with my Lord I hope it will not be supposed that he is afraid of it or so needy or so mean For this we call Michael Noble and Stephen Colledge Michael Noble sworn Sir John Trevor What do you know of Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Aston Mr. Noble My Lords I can say little or nothing as to Mr. Dugdale for that I have never been acquainted with him but since the Plot and he came to be an Evidence but Mr. Dugdale desired me to assist him as much as I could to make up his Accompts with my Lord Aston And we were twice at the Tower one time we spoke with my Lord with great difficulty another time we could not see him There were three Books of Accompt two my Lord would let us see but the third wherein all the Discharges were as Mr. Dugdale said he would never let us see that is all I can say Then Stephen Colledge was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Stephen Colledge Sir Will. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to accompt with him Mr. Colledge In January last I went along with Mr. Dugdale at his request to the Tower with one Mr. Noble a Barrester of the Temple and one Mr. Boson of Lyons-Inn in order to the making up Accompts between Mr. Dugdale and my Lord Aston for he told me he was going thither for that end When we came thither we met with one Captain Hawley who belongs to the Lieutenant of the Tower and we desired him to go to my Lord Aston and tell him Mr. Dugdale was there in order to make up his Accompts with him He went and brings an answer back again That my Lord was not at leisure to speak with Mr. Dugdale then nor none of us from him And Mr. Hawley said he was then going up with the Lords to Nine-pins Mr. Dugdale faid he was very ill used for he had been several times there before and he could not be admitted to speak with him He hath a little Book says he meaning my Lord wherein
there is an Accompt made up under his own hand of almost Two or Three hundred Pounds which sum I cannot say but one of them I am certain of which he hath denyed several times that he had it but I can prove that he hath it if he will be pleased to produce that Book we need not be a quarter of an hour in making up the Accompt He did speak of some other sums he had to place to Accompt too but so much was made up already But Captain Hawley saying he would not speak with him nor any of us from him I did take the liberty to say to Captain Hawley That it was hard his Lordship and his party should abuse Mr. Dugdale at that rate to make him his Debtor for now I understood by what Mr. Dugdale said my Lord was his Debtor And said I if I can perswade Mr. Dugdale he shall publish his Case for the Protestant Interest suffered by it That he should be made a Debtor to my Lord when he was not so And I believe Capt. Hawley told my Lord Aston what I did say for when he came back again from my Lord Aston he said my Lord did acknowledge he had that Book and it was ready to be produced but he would stay till a Councellor of his came out of the Country and till he had spoke with the Lieutenant for he would not speak with Mr. Dugdale unless the Lieutenant were by and in three or four days time he would send for him but I never heard that he sent for him ever since If it please your Lordships I have one thing more that I remember There was a young man that belonged to my Lord Aston's Family that heard Mr. Dugdale was at Captain Hawley's Chamber and came to see him and paid a very great respect to him and would stand bare to him though Mr. Dugdale desired him to put on his Hat several times Some of us asked him whether Mr. Dugdale was thought to be such a Knave when he lived with his Lord as they would have made him since No said he Mr. Dugdale was as honest a Gentleman as ever lived in our Family I remember my Lord Aston's man said this to us then L. Stafford My Lords Will you be pleased to give me leave if I speak impertinently I am under your correction I conceive I shall have something to answer this but I would first know whether I may desire of your Lordships that I may have my Lord Aston here to give an account of this matter Sir Will. Jones If he were here he could not be heard being a person accused for the same offence L. H. Stew. My Lord he stands Indicted for the same Treason and cannot be a Witness L. Stafford I beg your pardon my Lord. Nicholas Boson was sworn L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness Nicholas Boson Sir VV. Jones Declare to my Lords what you know concerning Mr. Dugdale's pressing my Lord Aston to come to an accompt Mr. Boson In January last I met with Mr. Dugdale and one Mr. Noble and one Mr. Colledge And Mr. Dugdale desired us to go down with him to the Tower He said he had an Order of the Council to pass his Accompts with my Lord Aston and when we came there we enquired for Captain Hawley and desired him that he would acquaint my Lord Aston that he was there to accompt with him Captain Hawley went up to my Lord Aston and brought word back again my Lord was not at leisure or would not speak with him or to that effect whereupon Mr. Dugdale said it was very hard that he should be aspersed to owe my Lord Mony and he would not come to accompt with him For my Lord Aston had a Book or Books in his custody which he would stand by and they would determine the business between them that my Lord Aston was almost Two hundred pounds in his debt And pray says he Captain Hawley do me the favour to go to my Lord Aston again and desire him that he will be pleased to produce that Book or Books If I owe my Lord any money I am ready to pay him and if he owe me any I hope his Lordship will do the like by me as I am sure he does Two hundred Pounds Captain Hawley went away and brought this Answer That his Lordship would send for him in some short time assoon as a Coâ—nellor did come out of the Country whom he had entrusted with his Books and that was one Birch as near as I remember Sir Will. Jones We have done with this Witness And because we desire to conclude as to Mr. Dugdale we shall call some persons of Quality as to his Reputation my Lord having gone about to make him a man of no Reputation Mr. Boson I can speak too about the Boy that came in Sir VV. Jones There is no need of that now we shall trouble you no further Sir Your Lordships will be pleased to observe That Mr. Philips the Minister that was one of my Lord Stafford's Witnesses did say Mr. Dugdale was a man of whome many spoke well and some indifferently and perhaps that is the case of most good men for scarce any are so good that all speak well of them but that many should speak well and some indifferently of him may be the lot of a very good man We shall call some Witnesses and begin with Mr. VVhitby a Justice of the Peace that will tell you he hath known Mr. Dugdale long and what Reputation he is of Thomas Whitby Esq sworn Sir John Trevor My Lords We desire your Lordships would be pleased to ask him what Reputation and credit Mr. Dugdale was in in my Lord Aston's Service Mr. VVhitby My Lords I have known Mr. Dugdale to be a Servant to my Lord Aston this nine or ten years he was Steward to him and there was no other person between my Lord and him he received my Lords Rents and Debts for him exchanged his Lands for him in forty places I exchanged some Land with my Lord my self and he was the man that did it He was very hard for my Lords advantage and did what he could for my Lords profit Sir John Trevor What do you know more as to his dealing Mr. VVhitby He was a person that was next to my Lord and did rule and govern the rest of the Family All the Servants were under him Sir John Trevor Was he looked upon to be an honest man in his dealings Mr. VVhitby As to what I had to deal with him he was an honest man I never heard the contrary I have heard some Tradesmen complain that he hath put them off without Money would not pay them what my Lord owed them L. Stafford I desire that Mr. VVhitby may be here when I shall have occasion to say something to him Sir VV. Jones That will be I hope by and by for we have almost done Call Mr. VVilliam Southall VVho was sworn L.
Sir you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise my Life for yours if you have not his Pardon but I will take special care about it for I will send up a Letter to London directed to some of the Lords which I accordingly did and I will also speak to Captain Lane who is a worthy Gentleman to interpose in it too Then said he I will make a discovery of the Plot. Then my Lords he told me first some particular passages relating to this Lord at the Bar and also concerning Mr. Evers and Mr Peters now in Custody and some other particulars I wished him that he would speak no more at that time And when I parted with him forthwith I consulted with my self what I ought to do in point of Law I knew I must discover that a further discovery might be made of what had passed between us Then I went to Mr. Freek who was either Mayor or Justice of Peace in Stafford and told him he must come with me to Serjeant Parry's He asked me what to do I told him when he came he should know he accordingly came and took short Notes of a further Discovery and Mr. Freek he certified it up to Mr. Chetwyn who was then at London Upon the day following the 24 th I rose and went to one Mr. Vernon one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and told him what had happened and he sent for Captain Lane another of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and they took an Examination of him I have done my Lord with reference to his Discovery and the time L. H. Steward Do you remember what he mentioned of my Lord Stafford what he said of him Mr. Southall Truly my Lords I can only tell what he said at the first Examination he told me the first time my Lord Stafford spoke with him was at Tixal-Hall nigh to the Gate-House betwixt the Gate and the Hall My Lord was going into the Hall and my Lord Stafford told him it was a very hard thing or to that purpose that they could not say their Prayes but in private and after told him the same day or night t'one that they had some work to do and he might or must be instrumental in it This was the effect of what he told me passed the first time Another time I think he told me he was to have five hundred pounds to kill the King Lord High Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Southall Not till Captain Lane examined him which was the second time he was examined which was about the 26 th L. H. Stew. Did he swear that before Vernon and Lane Mr. Southall Yes he did I could give your Lordships a Breviate of what he swore then L. Stafford I desire he may give that Breviate Mr. Southall I took some Notes of what he swore then L. H. Stew. Have you them by you or about you Mr. Southall Yes my Lords I have L. H. Stew. Produce them Mr. Southall I took this upon some Paper I had in my Pocket and is the substance of what he swore Which he delivered to the Clerk Clerke December the 24th 1678. Mr. Dugdale informeth That in September last he met in Tixall the Lord Stafford nigh to the Gates who said That it was sad they were troubled they could not say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there be a good success we shall enjoy our freedom And that upon the 20th day of September 1678. the said Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design in hand and if he would undertake in it he should have a good Reward c. and make himself famous The same day this Informant went up into Mr. Francis Evers Chamber to know what my Lord Stafford meant by his words and he first made him swear secresie upon his knees and then told him That he might be a person employed and have a good Reward and make himself famous if he would stand instrumental with others in taking aatay the Kings Life by Shooting or otherwise and need not fear for that the Pope had Excommunicated the King and that all that were Excommunicated by him were Hereticks and they might Kill them and be Canonized for Saints in so doing And that the Design was as well to Kill the Duke of Monmouth as well as the King December the 29th 1678. This Informant saith That since the 20th day of September last the said Lord Stafford did promise him Five Hundred Pounds as to the carrying on of the Plot and that Mr. Evers should give him instructions about the same And that the Lord Stafford told him he did not doubt of his fidelity for Mr. Evers had given him a good character to be trusty And that the Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design to take away the Life of the King and the Life of the Duke of Monmouth and that several others were to be imployed in the Design besides this Informant And that this had been throughly considered of to be the fittest way for the establishing of the Romish Religion And that at the said time the said Lord Stafford laid his hand upon his head and prayed God to keep him in his good mind and to be faithful to what he had intrusted him in c. And this Informant further saith That he doubting of the Lord Stafford's payment the said Mr. Evers promised him the making good of my Lord Stafford's promise c. And further saith that he saw a Letter directed from my Lord Stafford to Mr. Evers and he read the same and knows it to be my Lord Stafford's writing and that therein was written that things went on well beyond the Sâ—as for the carrying on the Design and so he hoped it did do here in England c. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will examine no further as to Mr. Dugdale But will conclude with this Witness and I think he speaks fully to him The next Witness we called was Dr. Oats and your Lordships have been pleased to observe That what Exceptions have been made against him have not been so much by Witnesses produced as by opposing one part of his Testimony to another what he swore at one time to what he swore at another to which we shall give an Answer when we come to sum up our Evidence for there will be no need of Witnesses to what is objected against Mr. Oats but only of Observations but as to the third Witness Turbervill we have something to answer of Witness and someâ—â—ing by way of making Observation We will first call our Witnesses Then Mr. Southall desired his Paper again which the Court told him he should have a Copy of from the Clerk Sir W. Jones And our first Witness is to this purpose It was objected against Mr. Turbervill L. H. Steward Have you done with Dugdale You have forgot to give an Answer to the objection
all is done But my Lord I would not have your Lordship to understand me so that if so be you have yet any material Evidence that you think it does concern you to produce and you have it ready to Morrow before you sum up the Evidence I believe then if you move my Lords they will let it be heard Otherwise I think here is an end of Witnesses L. Stafford I desire the Paper I gave in may be returned me L. H. Steward But in order to this my Lord if your Lordship does think you shall use or produce any other Witnesses it would be of importance that you would name them now L. Stafford Truly my Lords I will go hunt for none and I think I shall have none only one thing I must beg your pardon in which is the only thing I must have Witnesses to to answer what they have said that my Lord Aston would not come to accompt My Witnesses are very near me Mr. Lieutenant some in the Tower and one Mr. Birch L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford bring those to morrow that you name to night L. Stafford If you please that I may have that Paper Wright's Letter E. of Shaftsbury My Lord Steward I desire that Letter may be kept L. Stafford It is a Paper that was given me and I would return it if you won't allow me it I can't help it L. H. Steward 'T is desired it may remain where it is But your Lordship may have a Copy if you please attested by the Clerk Is it your Lordships pleasure to Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Steward This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons returned to their House where Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have Ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought to his Tryal at the Bar in Westminster-Hall to Morrow morning at Ten of the Clock The Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock the next Morning The Fifth Day Saturday December 4. 1680. ABout the hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into VVestminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before The Court being sat Proclamation for silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began as followeth L. H. Steward What says your Lordship my Lord Stafford My Lords are pepared to hear what your Lordship can say in the summing up of your Defence L. Stafford My Lords I must needs say to your Lordships That you have given me Favour and Time all that I could demand But I am a very unfortunate man in many things unfortunate in being brought hither upon this Accompt and truly my Lords I am very unfortunate That I had not yesterday before I went away the Names of some material Witnesses and some that I did not know of till within this half quarter of an hour I humbly offer this to your Lordships consideration as the state of my Case 'T is true my Lords I acknowledge I was bound up to Mr. Lieutenant and some others that I named but I humbly tell your Lordships this That I am Informed of some material Witnesses more this morning L. H. Stew. Are the Witnesses you speak of any of the Witnesses you named last night L. Stafford No my Lords 'T is one of my Lords a Peer of this House L. H. Stew. How many more have you L. Stafford Five or six L. H. Stew. To what Point L. Stafford To discredit the Witnesses that have been brought against me both some of those that have discredited mine and some that have sworn against me particularly L. H. Stew. There is no End of this way of proceeding L. Stafford My Lords I profess to your Lordships in the presence of God I do it not for delay nor did I know of them then L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir VVill. Jones My Lords I am afraid this proceeding at this rate will never have an end If his Lordship have any Witnesses to any material part of his Defence though he hath bound himself up I should not be against hearing of them But if his new Witnesses are only to the Reputation of our Witnesses then perhaps we must have some other Witnesses brought to discredit his and we not knowing who these new Witnesses of his would be may need perhaps another day to bring Testimony against them so that I know not when the matter can have an end Your Lordships know there is a Rule in the Civil Law In testem testes in hos sed non datur ultra And I hope beyond that you will not go Truly for my own part I did not expect any other Witnesses but those he was pleased to name last night in relation to the matters of Accompt If he please to call them we shall hear them but for any other considering it would prolong the Tryal to another day and this Cause hath had four days already for Hearing we hope they shall not be admitted L. Stafford My Lords I profess to your Lordships if I were alone concerned in it I should not have moved it but when I consider my Wife and Family are concerned I hold my self bound by the Duty I owe to God and them to propose this to your Lordships I am pressed to it by my Wife just now since the House came in I protest before God for my self I can look Death in the face without being afraid but when I consider in what condition I shall leave my Wife and Family it moves me Then he wept I am not concerned at it for my own part for I know I am innocent but I cannot forbear Tears when I consider them 't is not for my self I take God Almighty to witness that I weep I could be content to speak a few words to your Lordships and submit to your Judgment and take my death if you decree me to it and not defer it till Munday But I cannot forbear shewing my Grief when I consider my Wife and Children L. H. Stew. Pray Gentlemen consider whether it be not a saving of time to let my Lord examine his Witnesses else my Lords must withdraw to consider of his desire 'T is true in the practice of Chancery we do examine to the credit of Witnesses and to their credit but no further but what my Lords will do in this Case I know not till they are withdrawn Sir VVill. Jones My Lords we have that Opinion of our own Proofs and are so desirous of an End of these Proceedings that rather than we will give your Lordships the trouble to withdraw if my Lord will please now to tell us the number
and names of his Witnesses we shall not oppose their being heard Sir Fr. Winn. If your Lordships please one word further We know well of what Concern this is to my Lord and no body desires to have him crampt in his Evidence The Objection did lie fair on our side it looking like a designed delay and yet we are willing to comply with this Reservation that if there should be any such Witnesses produced now as may require an Answer that we may not be foreclosed of advising with one another about it L. H. Stew. No by no means My Lord Stafford your desire is consented unto upon these Terms That your Lordship will now name the persons and number of the Witnesses you will call Mr. Hambden And the Points to which you will call them L. Stafford I humbly thank your Lordships for the favour but it is an impossibility for me to do it If your Lordships will give me a quarter of an hours time I will name them I cannot name some of them one is my Lord Ferrers another is one Dr. Taylor Dr. Watson Dr. Elliot and one William Dale L. H. Stew. Now to what Points will your Lordship call these Witnesses L. Stafford My Lord Ferrers is to speak his knowledge of Southall the Coroner and that is as to Dugdale my Lord knows that person Dr. VVatson and they are to invalidate the Testimony of Dr. Oats and there is another mans Name I forget what it is Sir Will. Jones To what Point is he to be a Witness L. Stafford 'T is to Dr. Oats and the Evidence against me Mr. Serj. Maynard So there will be pretences made every moment of some new Witness to put off this Cause Lord Stafford Under your Lordships favour I scorn to make any delay If you think this may not be material or not fit to be done I will quit it L. H. Stew. Go on my Lord. L. Stafford Will your Lordships be pleased to begin with my Lord Ferrer s who stood up in his place L. H. Stew. My Lord Ferrers your Lordship is called upon by my Lord Stafford and you being a Witness for the Prisoner and against the King your Lordship is not to be sworn Lord Ferrers My Lords what I have to say concerning that person my Lord named Southall is only upon Hear-say and upon the Reputation he hath in the Countrey for I have no acquaintance with him nor do know him at all But the Reputation that hath been given me of him in the Countrey is That he hath been a very active man in the late times against the King and is counted to be a very pernicious man against the Government Lord Stafford Call Dr. Taylor Servant I know not where he is he can't be found at present L. Stafford Then call VVilliam Dale in the mean time My Lords This same Southall I never heard of the other man that drew up the Affidavit that is Feake I know he was named by Southall to joyn with him in the Examination I can tell what he was I can prove that he is an Attorney that he was Mayor of Stafford and proclaimed the King Traytor L. H. Steward Who was that Lord Stafford One that drew up the Affidavit of Dugdale Feake mentioned by Southall L. H. Steward Who is your next Witness my Lord L. Stafford One VVilliam Dale who being called appeared L. H. Steward What is your Name VVitness VVilliam Dale L. H. Stew. What do you say L. Stafford About Dugdale my Lords what he knows about his offering him any money Sir VVill. Jones We desire to know where he lives Dale Dugdale never offered me any money L. H. Stew. Where do you live Dale At Owseley-bridge L. Stafford Pray ask him whether Dugdale persuaded him to swear against my Lord Aston something he knew not L. H. Stew. Did Dugdale ever hire you to swear against my Lord Aston Dale No he never hâ—red me L. H. Stew. Do you know that he ever hired any body else to swear false Dale I do not my Lords L. Stafford My Lords I most humbly thank your Lordships for your favour in giving me the liberty of examining these other Witnesses I shall trouble you no further nor give no more Evidence only one Witness my Lords I shall trouble you no further and that is Mr. Lieutenant of the Tower to this point whether my Lord Aston did refuse to come to accompt with Dugdale L. H. Steward Come Mr. Lieutenant do you know any thing about Accompts between my Lord Aston and Mr. Dugdale Mr. Lieutenant My Lords last Summer was 12 month Dugdale came to the Tower but my Lord Aston would not speak with him unless I were by so they brought him to my Lodging and he shewed me the Books of Accompts Itold them I did not understand Accompts but if they would have me be by I would get some body to be present that did and have them adjusted Mr. Dugdale said he whould come another time but from that time to this I never heard of him L. Stafford My Lords I shall not trouble you with any more Witnesses My Lords I have now done my Evidence I shall as well as my weak memory and old Age will give me leave sum it up something as well as I can of the Evidence given against me and for me Truly my Lords I am able to do it very imperfectly for want of understanding and truly for want of sleep but I do not doubt but that according to the Law as I am informed it is since I can have no Counsel in matter of Fact or to advise me in any thing of that nature yet I am also informed by the Law your Lordships who are my Judges are my Counsel And I do not doubt but your Lordships when you take it into consideration will supply any defects which I shall commit which I believe will be many I shall spend your Lordships time as little as I can though these Gentlemen of the House of Commons believe I desire to protract it yet I profess before God I do not And I declare before them all and your Lordships I am so satisfied of my own Innocency that I would never beg a moments time of delay and I know your Lordships will take care of the Life of the meanest Subject and though I have had the honour to sit among your Lordships as a Peer yet I ask not for your favour but with your justice too I shall therefore sum up my defence as well as I can For the first Witness Dugdale he swore I was at a Consult at Tixal in the end of August or the beginning of September I have sufficiently proved that in all August I was not there nor till the 12. of September I have proved that his first Oath was I was there in August and a man that will swear false in one thing is not to be credited in any I have made it appear to your Lordships that upon the 20. of
September when he says he was in my Chamber and I sent the Page to call him that it is false it was only he desired he might come to me to get leave that he might go to the Race my Lord Aston being angry with him for it This I conceive is proved sufficiently by two Witnesses my Man and my Boy and this I think I have proved as positively as can be done My Lords 't is true 't is objected against me That I had said Dugdale was never seen alone with me in my life 't is true and 't is true Ansell swears he brought a Footman to me but he swears it was in the Morning when it was at Supper and does not say that he was alone with me My Lords Dugdale swore that he told Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge of the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey on the Munday some swore he said it was on the Tuesday but they deny that ever he told it them and so he is forsworn in that And my Lords whether he be a man of any great Credit I think I have proved enough to your Lordships 'T is proved by two Witnesses Holt and Morrall that he offered them money to swear as likewise he did to another one Robinson whom I do believe by the Information that was given of him to be a wicked ill man and not to be credited but being so my Lords he was the fitter for Dugdale's turn And yet he had so much Conscience though he was a poor and needy fellow he would not swear a mans Life away for money the other two are without exception the one they say is an idle fellow and t'other a man but of an indifferent Reputation how far that will move with your Lordships I submit it to you I suppose 't is also clear by my Witnesses that Dugdale is a man of no Reputation having forsworn himself in several particulars and I submit the Credit of all he says to your Lordships upon that The next Witness my Lords is Mr. Oats whether he be a Doctor or no I know it not he would not own it here he my Lords swears that he saw a Commission delivered to me to be Pay-master of an Army to be raised God knows when I never heard when or where I suppose it was in the Clouds for I never knew where else Mr. Oats all along before swore only that he believed I was in the Plot now he swears I was in it at Mr. Fenwicks Chamber a man I never saw in my life nor heard of till this discovery And that he saw Letters subscribed by my Name but that my Lords I conceive is no Evidence at all for he never saw me write nor does know my Hand nor does he pretend to know me then and when he had told your Lordships he had a Letter of mine he pretended to look for it and then said he had lost it that is never had it But besides my Lords his Evidence now does not agree with his former for I do appeal to your Lordships that were in the House then that he swore the first time He only saw my Name to Letters afterwards he swore that is some days after he had ended all his Evidence and knew no more than he had put down then afterwards he remembers what he knew not before and swears a Commission he saw delivered to me So his Memory increases as he hath time to invent and perhaps by another time it might be much more But my Lords I think that one particular his swearing before your Lordships as 't is entred in your Journal that he had no more to say against any body and afterwards naming the Queen and now me to have a Commission I conceive is perfect Perjury My Lords Mr. Oats told your Lordships That he had never been a Papist in his Heart but ever feigned it truly my Lords I cannot possibly give over that point That a man that feigns himself to be a Papist or any thing that in the opinion of Protestants is so wicked a thing as that is fit to be believed if he shall not heartily repent himself and own it to God and Man as an ill thing to dissemble so But yesterday he with a smiling Countenance and as it were in derision owns that which must be a very great offence to God Almighty to pretend to be of an Idolatrous Church I appeal to your Lordships whether he be a fit Witness I conceive he cannot be thought a Christian nor to believe in God I know many wicked and infamous persons have done many wicked things and yet have been Witnesses but never did any wicked man own a wicked thing that he might have concealed with boasting of it that ever was credited in any thing for if he had said I do acknowledge I did dissemble with God and my own Conscience but I ask God forgiveness it was for a good End and a good Intention it had been something though that could not have atoned for so ill a thing but shewing no Repentance but rather an impudent affronting of God Almighty I think he is not a fit Witness I appeal to your Lordships and the whole Christian World if he be I cannot believe your Lordships will condemn me for an Opinion which I will go to my death with and it stands upon me so to do The last Witness my Lords is Turbervill and he says in the year 75 he often discoursed alone with me for a fortnight together at Paris My Servants he owns he never saw them and how he could come for a fortnight together and not see my Servants I refer it to your Lordships consideration whether it be possible For I 'le tell your Lordships when I had been a few days at Paris my Landlord came one day to me and said You do not do well to suffer any body to come to you without your Man be by for there came yesterday a Frenchman to speak with you and I do not know him and he went strait up to your Chamber without any body with him 't is a dangerous thing said he for I know that Frenchmen and people have come up and been alone with persons and put a Pistol to them and made them deliver their mony for fear of their Lives therefore pray said he do it no more From that time which was a few days after I came to Paris the latter end of October or the beginning of November no Christian Soul was permitted to come to me without my Servants how then could he come to me for a fortnight together and none of my Servants see him My Lords this Gentleman very civilly the next day after he had made an Affidavit against me would needs mend it and Sir William Poultney did acknowledge that he made Affidavit one day that he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 73 and the next day amended it to 72. Now I humbly conceive my Lords a man that swears one thing to day
which he forswears to morrow is not to be believed And the truth of it is as his Brothers prove to your Lordships he came to my Lord Powis's in the year 71 and so he forswears himself in every thing and is in no wise to be believed He swears to your Lordships I writ a Letter to him to acquaint him that I would go by Calice and not by Diep but I have proved I went by Diep and I assure your Lordships I have not been at Calice I think these twelve or fourteen years I conceive these things are very manifest and clear proofs against him that he hath not swore one true word He swears that my Lord Powis my Lady Powis and his friends perswaded him to go to Doway to to be a Frier but not liking it he came over again and was in danger of his life by them but the Evidence is sufficiently strong in proof that he afterwards was at my Lord Powis's and was well received that he lay in the House and was not in the least injured by them And for his other Relations his Brother proves he was not ill used by them They gave him Seven Pound to be gone and trouble them no more He says I said he was a Coward and I 'le tell you why I said so because a Captain that is now out of England told his Sister so who told me But that is not very material My Lords there is one Witness more John Porter that swears to your Lordships this one thing That this Turbervill swore to him at such an Alehouse he knew nothing of the Plot. And then my Lords there is Mr. Yalden and he is a Gentleman of Reputation he said in his company there was no Trade good but that of a Discoverer God damn the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it Truly my Lords whether he got no money by it or is known since he hath been a Discoverer telling what he knew not so many Months ago and therefore I submit it to your Lordships what he is My Lords these people that swear against me there is not one of them a person of any Quality or Condition and whether they have not rather sworn for money than the truth by things that are known and need no proof I shall observe when I come to it to argue that point in Law Whether a man that swears for gain is a credible Witness or no My Lords I have as well as I can summed up that little Evidence that was given against me I cannot better do it in so short a time for indeed I had but a very short time last night and I have not slept I had the Cramp so much in extremity that my next Neighbour heard me roaring out My Lords I submit my self to your Lordships and doubt not but that the matters charged upon me will appear to your Lordships sufficiently answered And I beseech your Lordships well to consider that one thing against Dr. Oats his dissembling with God Almighty and his impudent owning of it This I do insist upon and I protest before God Almighty if I were a Judge I would not hang a Dog upon such Evidence My Lords I have many points in Law to offer to your Lordships and when you please I should do it I 'le name them to you L. H. Steward Name them my Lord if you have any Doubts in Law propound them Lord Lovelace My Lords I would not interrupt my Lord but I think indeed it is no interruption since his Lordship broke off and was going on to another point But I think I see one of the impudentest things that ever was done in a Court of Justice Whilest we are Trying a Person here for a Popish Plot I do see a prosessed Papist standing in the Body of your House and that is Sir Barnard Gascoyne Who thereupon went out of the Court. L. Stafford My Lords I do conceive I have cleared my self to your ' Lordships of what I am accused of My Lords The Course of my whole Life hath been otherwise I defie any Creature in the World to say That I ever used one disobedient or disloyal word of the King or did any such Act. I waited on the King that now is in the Unhappy War that is passed when I was in a low condition enough as to Fortune and my Wife and Family were thereby reduced to great Streights for my Wife and Children lived some five or six years upon some Plate and Jewels that we had whereas if I would have come and been at London and joined with that party I could have saved my Estate and lived quietly as others did But my Conscience told me I ought to wait upon the King and offer him my personal Service when I could do him no other I have shewn how the Witnesses have forsworn themselves I shall now if your Lordships please desire your Opinion in some points of Law And though perhaps I may name to your Lordships many things that are impertinent or not to the purpose I beg your Lordships pardon 't is out of the weakness of my Understanding and I hope you will not think ill neither your Lordships nor the House of Commons if I should through Ignorance move things impertinent The first Point of Law is this First I conceive there is no Example or President for it That Proceedings Criminal ever did continue from Parliament to Parliament and this is continued to three L. H. Steward Speak out my Lord and go on L. Stafford Secondly my Lords I do not question the power of the House of Commons in the least but my Lords I know they Impeach when they find Grounds for it without dispute but I question whether any man by the known Laws of this Kingdom in Capital Cases can be proceeded on but by Indictment first found by the Grand Jury and not by Impeachment by any Person or other body of Men. L. H. Steward Say on my Lord. L. Stafford Thirdly my Lords I conceive there are many defects in the Indictment or the Impeachment Indictment there is none There is no Overt Act alledged in the Indictment or Impeachment I know not well what it is called And my Lords by the Act of Parliament in 1 H. 4. c. 10. nothing from thenceforth is to be Treason but according to the Statute of 25 Edw. 3. which includes an Overt Act. Fourthly my Lords I desire that I may prove that by Law they are not competent Witnesses for they swear for money But my Lords I forgot one thing to say to Your Lordships as to the Evidence that these Gentlemen did endeavour to prove I do not speak whether they did or not a general Plot of the Papists whether they did not I am not concerned in it for I say they have not proved me a Papist which I submit to Your Lordships and though any man may know me so in his private knowledge yet they having not given any
Jesuits You will find them preparing for it by making Sermons to justifie that Doctrine which I confess this Noble Lord denies of the lawfulness of killing Kings You will find the Priests and Jesuits in their Discourses as well as Sermons urging and incouraging their Disciples and Votaries to go on with their Design of killing our King and giving that common Reason for it That He was an Heretick and it were meritorious to take him out of the way My Lords I take notice of these particulars in the general Plot because it may give great light to and add much to the Confirmation of the particular Evidence And my Lords I think I may take leave to say That the Plot in general hath been now sufficiently proved And if we consider what hath been proved at former Tryals upon which many of the Offenders and Traytors have been executed what hath been published in Print and above all Coleman's Letters written all with his own hand and for that reason impossible to be falsified we may justly conclude that there is not a man in England of any understanding but must be fully convinced of the truth of the Plot in general I shall spare to mention the Resolutions and Declarations of Two Parliaments and of both Houses in those Two Parliaments without as I remember one dissenting Voice expressing their full satisfaction of the Reality of the Plot so that I think now none remain that do pretend not to believe it but two sorts of persons the one those that were Conspirators in it and the other those that wish'd it had succeeded and desire it may so still But my Lords I will be the shorter on this part For perhaps it will be objected You have offered a fair Proof of a general Plot here are Records Votes of both Houses Papers and Evidences printed and Witnesses Viva voce to prove it but what is all this to my Lord Stafford My Lords it goes a great way to him I do not say to be a convincing Evidence but to make the particular Evidence against him highly credible Your Lordships cannot imagine That there are such a store of Lords and great Men amongst that Party though there be too many that they should have great Choice for great Offices Your Lordships hear how the other great Offices were disposed of and truly I think the Merit of this Lord amongst that party might very well intitle him to an Office as great as this of Treasurer of War or Pay-Master to the Army But what is the Evidence of the general Plot may some still say to my Lord Stafford what do you mention the raising an Army what do you mention the collecting of Money what do you mention the providing of Arms for Yes my Lords they are very useful for they give a a fair Introduction to prove against this Lord that he was to have this Office If it be proved by other Witnesses than those who swear directly against this Lord That there were Arms provided that there was an Army to be raised and the rest It proves at least that there was Occasion for such an Officer as the particular Witness proves my Lord was to be My Lords For the other matter that relates to the Consultations of the Priests and Jesuits and their Sermons and Discourses I desire your Lordships to observe that also which if you do your Lordships will easily perceive what a great influence even that matter hath upon the particular Evidence and how credible it renders the Testimony of the particular Witnesses Your Lordships will find when my Lord was at Tixal as Dugdale gives you an Accompt there was Evers the Jesuit and other Priests still at my Lords Elbow and egging him on to this business Your Lordships will find where Oats speaks of him it is at Fenwick's Chamber who was a Jesuit giving him ghostly Counsel Your Lordships will find that at Paris where Mr. Turbervill speaks of him there were Father Sherborne Father Nelson and Father Anthony Turbervill Still the Priests are about my Lord and when my Lord is among them or but newly come from them then he utters the Treason of killing the King And doubtless this trayterous purpose of his did arise from their Counsels So that though our Witnesses speak of my Lords Discourses at several times about killing the King yet they make them flow from one and the same Fountain the instigation of the Priests and Jesuits But now my Lords to come to the particular Evidence I think I may say if ever Evidence was convincing this is so We have brought three Witnesses which speak each of them that which is sufficient to prove my Lord Guilty and they speak of Overt Acts too as I shall observe anon His Lordship was pleased at the beginning of our Evidence to desire that the Witnesses might look him in the Face and for that he cited two Statutes I supposed he intended the Statutes of 1. 5. of Edw. 6. which Statutes or at least one of them do say That there shall be in Case of High Treason two Witnesses to accuse and those two Witnesses brought face to face at the time of the Tryal And my Lord hath had the benefit of those Laws he hath had two nay three Witnesses to prove him Guilty brought face to face before your Lordships and if these three or any two of them deserve to be credited my Lord in this Case is Guilty of High Treason My Lords I must beg the favour of looking upon my Paper of Notes for the truth is the Witnesses are so many and the proceeding hath held so long that it is impossible for my weak memory to retain all that was said My Lords the first Witness we began withall was Dugdale And I know your Lordships did take notice what he swore but it will be my Duty to remind your Lordships That he tells you That he had heard of a general Design of making preparations to be ready against the Kings Death and this for several years past But as to the matter of hastening the Death of the King that was but a late Counsel He tells you I think that about the latter end of August or the beginning of September 1678. Evers and other Jesuits were at Tixal That there was a Consult then about the Kings Death and that by the means of Evers who was a very great Man among them but since fled and is mentioned in the Impeachment he was admitted to that Consult and heard particularly what every man said and he does take upon him to say That at that time the matter of taking away the Kings Life was propounded and that my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar did consent to it My Lords He tells you further That upon a Sunday Morning my Lord came from Stafford to Tixal to Masse my Lord was pleased to observe that we do not prove him a Papist but we prove my Lord came to Masse and that I think is one
good Proof of his being a Papist Besides Dugdale swears my Lord did then complain That they had not the free Exercise of their Religion that they could not say their Prayers openly What were they Not the Prayers of Protestants not those contained in the Liturgy of our Church He could not complain of any restraint as to them but complain he did that they had not the free Exercise of their Religion but he did hope if things succeeded well in a short time it would be otherwise This is particularly sworn by Dugdale My Lords His Lordship was very much unsatisfied That Dugdale was not particular in point of time he did talk of some matters to be in August or September but could not fix to any day But your Lordships will remember that as to one particular and which mainly concerns his Lordship to answer he comes to a day or within a day for he swears positively That upon the 20. or 21. of September he was sent for to my Lords Chamber the Servants were put out that there my Lord did propose to him in express terms the matter of Killing of the King He would have him be an Actor in it and he offered him a Reward of 500 l. to perform it For this which is the most material part of his particular Evidence against my Lord he is certain 't was either on the 20. or 21. of September and he tells your Lordships how he comes to remember the time by a good Token by the Foot-Race that was then to be run and I do not perceive that my Lord does deny but rather acknowledge that Dugdale was in his Chamber at that time 'T is true he does deny some other Circumstances which I shall answer anon And here I do think Dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount to an Overt Act and a damnable one too that is the offering 500 l. to kill the King But Dugdale it seems was not willing to depend upon the promises of my Lord for so much money his Lordship had not that credit with him he repairs to Evers and desires to be satisfied from him whether he might rely upon my Lord for so much Money Evers told him he might be sure to have the Money and that there was enough in Harcourts and other mens hands for the carrying on that blessed design and that he should have it thence I might my Lords remember to your Lordships how Dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my Lord. That my Lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the King how in particular my Lord Aston's Father had lost 30000 l. and what resentments my Lord had of it he said that places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that disserted the King and were Rebels and Traytors than on those that did him faithful Service and what does he conclude from thence He is very angry with the King and does say that next to the Cause of Religion which was the strongest motive with him to take away the Kings Life the Kings ingratitude to his Loyal Subjects was that which did most offend him I shall not trouble your Lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as incouragements to the Design as that there was to be a Pardon from the Pope that my Lord did write a Letter to Evers which was shewn to Dugdale wherein he says That things did succeed very well abroad and he hoped they would do so at home I shall only observe that Dugdales Evidence as to my Lords damnable Design of killing the King is positive and full And if this be to be believed as I hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be then here surely is one sufficient Witness to prove my Lord guilty of the Highest Treason My Lords The next Witness we called for against my Lord was Dr. Oats and I think Dr. Oats is not only positive but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an Overt Act nay I think to more Overt Acts than one The Doctor tells your Lordships That having been at St. Omers and in Spain he saw several Letters that were subscribed Stafford he did not then know my Lords Hand but he saw the Letters and he tells you the effect of those Letters And I remember in one of them there is this Expression That my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar does give Assurance to the Fathers that he is very zealous and ready to do them service Doctor Oats tells you my Lords That afterwards coming into England my Lord Stafford did write a Letter I think it was to his Son but sure I am the Doctor said he had the carriage of it to the Post-house that he saw my Lord write it he read the superscription and he swears that the Hand which writ that Letter was the Hand which subscribed to all the former And so then joyning the one to the other it amounts to as good an Evidence as if he had known my Lords Hand from the beginning But that which comes home to my Lord is that which Doctor Oats saw and that which Doctor Oats heard and they are these particulars which I now mention First he saw a Commission directed to my Lord to be Pay-master of the Army he saw it delivered to my Lords own Hand and my Lord accepted it Doctor Oats read the Commission and he tells you by whom it was signed Johannes Paulus Oliva a person substituted by the Pope to issue out Commissions he tells you the Contents of it and of this he swears he was an Ocular Witness He tells you of another Matter he heard my Lord say as considerable as the other That when my Lord had received the Commission my Lord declared that he was to go down into Staffordshire and Lancashire where he was to put things in readiness What were those things He had now a Commission by vertue of which in Lancashire and the other places hâ— was to prepare and gather Monies for that Army which he was to pay So much Doctor Oats doth swear he heard from my Lords own mouth But there is one thing further which I had almost forgot He doth swear that my Lord was privy to and approved of the Matter of killing of the King For he doth swear he did hear my Lord say at that time He hoped before he returned Honest William who was Grove that was executed for this Attempt would have done the business And what that business was every man who hath heard of Groves Treason must needs understand There is but one thing more that I remember of Doctor Oats his Testimony Your Lordships that have a better advantage to write than we who are crowded together may have taken Notes of more but this one thing I do observe Doctor Oats doth expresly swear that my Lord bore a very ill mind towards his Majesty for my Lord did in
his hearing complain That the King had deceived them a great while and that they would bear with him no longer he should deceive them no more My Lords Our third Witness was Mr. Turbervill who doth give you an account that he being first sent to Doway and intended to be entred there in one of the Societies he was sent by my Lord Powis and my Lady Powis and some of his Relations of that Religion for that purpose he did not like the Company he was not pleased with the Exercises of that Religion and that with much difficulty he escaped thence and came for England But finding he was not well look'd upon here nor well received by his Relations he went over to France That being at Paris he came into the company of the three Fathers I named before Father Sherborn Father Nelson and Father Turbervill the last whereof he tells you was his own Brother That by the means of these Priests he was brought acquainted with my Lord Stafford and doubtless they were able to make him intimately acquainted with my Lord. And it did prove so for he tells you after some time that in a lower Room of my Lords Lodging my Lord proposed to him the business of killing the King That he did not at all like it was very unwilling to undertake it but my Lord bid him consider of it and that he should give him his Answer at Diep having enjoyned him secrecy but my Lord after sent him word he would go by Calice and the Witness afterwards went into England and from thence into the French Army And this is the substance of what Turbervill deposeth And my Lords I think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens Testimonies but that here are two Witnesses if not more to prove my Lord Guilty of Treason But my Lord has been pleased against them to make several Objections some have been by Witnesses which he hath produced to incounter the Proofs that we have offered and some of them have been by Observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our Witnesses and his I will keep to Order as much as I can not confound the Order and Method of his Defence The Witnesses he first brought were against Dugdale and of them his Lordship was pleased to begin with his Daughter the Lady Marchioness of Winchester and his Niece Mrs. Howard Your Lordships I presume are pleased to observe what they were called to They did testifie that being at Wakeman's Tryal they did hear Dugdale swear says my Lady Marchioness of Winchester that my Lord Stafford was to come down into Staffordshire in June or July and Mr. Dugdale was then to receive Orders from my Lord and he swore as she was pleased to say that there was a Consult in August at Tixall and my Lord Stafford was there present Mrs. Howard for I put them together was pleased to say that she was present at that Tryal and there Dugdale swore my Lord Stafford did come down in June or July and that my Lord was at the Consult in August My Lords I will not make Objections neither to the Religion of these Ladies nor to the Relation to my Lord though those be matters that are to be considered But that which I shall observe to your Lordships is this That they do not agree one with another For my Lady Winchester says Dugdale did swear that my Lord was to come down in June or July and Mrs. Howard says that he swore he did come down then Now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down and swearing the very Act that he did come down at that time By which your Lordships may observe how hard a matter it is for Witnesses that are present at a Tryal especially at a Tryal which did not directly though it might in consequence concern another Person of their Relation to take notice exactly of things And truly my Lords these Ladies being of that Religion might have so much concern upon them for Sir George Wakeman the Popish Physician and in him for other their friends of that party that they might not have so much liberty of thought as to observe exactly all circumstances sworn to by the Witnesses and therefore it is no great matter if they are mistaken in them But I believe if any one do consult the Print though it be no Evidence nor offer'd as such he will find no such thing was at that time sworn for it is not so printed and those that took notes did not understand it so My Lords The next Witness my Lord is pleased to bring is his Servant Furnese and what is it that he testifieth He saith that he was with my Lord the whole time that Dugdale was in my Lords Chamber and he doth not remember that ever Dugdale was there but once and he doth not remember that ever my Lord bid him go out of the Room My Lords it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the Negative to remember how often Dugdale was there especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then than here appears to be and that after so long a time And it is a very hard matter for a Servant to gain Credit by saying his Master never bid him go out of the Room in his life These things may be done or said and yet escape the memory of a Servant of more Age and of less inclination to favour his Master then this person appears to be of and to have Therefore I think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said no force at all in it and I believe your Lordships will give very little regard to it but rather believe those Witnesses that swear positively that they have seen him with my Lord and speak to a familiarity at that time between them This young man Furnese was my Lords Servant and of his Religion and it is considerable whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary Practice has been used to prepare Evidence on my Lords behalf which I shall have occasion to speak to when I come to the other Witnesses His next Witness my Lords was his Boy George Leigh who is Fifteen years of Age now and was Eight years old when he came to my Lord Seven years ago And he attests the same thing and to the same purpose with the other And I think I may leave him with the same Answer for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other Only one thing I would observe to shew that his Memory was imperfect he doth not remember that Dugdale was with my Lord at all that day which my Lord himself doth acknowledge he was and the other Witness agrees So that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith My Lords next Witness was Thomas Sawyer and he is one of my
Lord Aston's Servants that I desire to observe of him first And what does he say He saith That Dugdale went away for Debt The contrary to which was apparently proved for we by our Witnesses made it manifest that Dugdale went away for the matter of the Plot the fear and dread he was in upon that score and the circumstance of his being apprehended by the Watch at Night in his Flight and how he was put to take the Oaths do manifestly prove this But he says another thing which I desire may have no weight with your Lordships that Dugdale should threaten that because my Lord Aston would not own him for his Servant he would be revenged of him Truly if my Lord Aston were here to be tried it would have some weight But to think if it were true that he had so sworn that therefore he would be so wicked as to do mischief to another man that he would be revenged of every man of that Religion or of every man that came to my Lord Aston's House That cannot be imagined So I cannot see what great stress my Lords the Prisoner can lay upon it as to the present Tryal which concerns my Lord Stafford But My Lords I desire to observe that he says further That when Dugdale went away there was a discourse of a Plot this he helps out Dugdale in and that there was a discourse of the killing of a Justice of Peace So that certainly it does shew that Dugdale was apprehensive of the Plot. And as to that which he is pleased to say That Dugdale should deny his knowledge of the Plot and take Drink and with Execrations forswear it it will be no manner of Objection at all For I shall have occasion to shew hereafter that Dugdale at that time was very far from revealing the Plot he had been so long ingaged in he was in apprehension of the danger of his own life and Southall tells you how and when he revealed it and by what inducements he was prevailed upon to do it The next Witness my Lord called was Philips the Minister of Tixal and truly all that I can accuse him of is want of Memory and that is no fault in a man that perhaps is very studious and careful in his Imployment as I hope he is He tells you that whereas Dugdale swore at a former Tryal that he acquainted Mr. Philips with the death of a Justice of Peace of Westminster on the Munday that he did not acquaint him with it that is he does not remember it for no man that swears a Negative can swear more But whether Mr. Philips Evidence be of any consequence to us we submit to your Lordships consideration when we oppose to his want of Memory two Witnesses that swear he was by when this News was told and we are told likewise as a confirmation of that by two Gentlemen of Quality that the report of such a thing was spread abroad all over that Country before it was possible for it to come by the way of ordinary Intelligence whether therefore what Mr. Philips testifies proceeds from any other cause than want of memory in Mr. Philips I must leave to your Lordships consideration But this I would observe to your Lordships that when Mr. Philips was asked by my Lord whether or no Dugdale were a person likely to perjure himself he could not say so Nay being asked of what Reputation he was of he said by some he was very well spoken of by some but indifferently but I do not remember that he said he was ill spoken of by any So I think Mr. Philips has rather advanced than prejudiced Mr. Dugdale's Reputation and Credit My Lords I think I may lightly pass over the three Justices of Peace that were brought to give an Account of Dugdale's behaviour before them and not mention them distinctly because they swear all to the same purpose That Mr. Dugdale was apprehended upon suspition of the Plot that he took the Oaths that he was invited and urged by them to make a discovery of the Plot which he then denied to have any knowledge of For all this will be answered when we come to re-mind Your Lordships of Mr. Southall's Testimony His Lordship was pleased in the next place to offer to prove Dugdale an ill Man by endeavouring to suborn Witnesses And in the first place he called Robinson who testified a very unlikely thing that Mr. Dugdale should call him in the Street and bring him to an House and offer him Money to swear against my Lord Stafford which Money he had in an Handkerchief but did not tell him what particulars he should swear to Nay and this after he had told him he could swear nothing And it does not appear that Dugdale had any manner of knowledge of him or that this Gentleman Robinson had any knowledge of my Lord Stafford So that it was a very rash and presumptuous thing that Dugdale should attempt a man that he knew not and a very imprudent thing that he should suborn a Witness to swear against a man that the Witness to be suborned did not know But I shall say no more of him because I think upon the Account that has been given of him by a Noble Earl of this House and an Honourable Member of the House of Commons if he had said things in themselves probable he deserves not in the least to be believed My Lords next Witness upon the same Head of Subornation was one Morral a poor Barber and what says he He testifies that Mr. Dugdale did offer him 50 l. to swear against Sir James Symons and some others My Lords whether this be probable or no we must leave to your Lordships We have called Witnesses that prove him a man of no Reputation one that runs up and down the Countrey a kind of Vagabond and I think upon the Endeavours that have been proved to have been used as to others it is no very hard matter to bring a man of his Condition to say as much as he hath done The next Witness is Samuel Holt the Blacksmith and he tells such a Story that if it were true would be some Disparagement to Dugdale and what is that He says that Dugdale sent a Man and a Horse for him to bring him to the Star in Stafford and there offer'd him 40 l. to swear that one Moore carried away Evers My Lords how this Story comes in I cannot imagine why Mr. Dugdale should bear any ill will to Moore or what should induce him to intice this man to swear against Moore or what else was in it it doth not appear But no matter what it is for we prove against this man by two Witnesses Rawlins and Lander By the First that he is a man of ill Reputation very zealous to support the Plot and cry down Mr. Dugdale saying that he was a Rogue and all they were Rogues that took part with him And by the other Witness Lander that Holt did
in a time when that time is so far elapsed The next matter is That this man was never with my Lord how was that proved for 't is a Negative Why my Lord is pleased to call his own Servants Furnese and the Boy Leigh and what say they they never saw any such man My Lords I desire your Lordships to observe That Mr. Turbervill was introduced by greater Confidents than either of these Servants Mr. Turbervill came in the company of the Priests and you hear the Boy deny that he knew Anthony Turbervill but not that he knew Father Turbervill nor doth my Lord himself deny it nor doth either Master or Man deny my Lords correspondency with the other two Fathers And it might be very easie for Mr. Turbervill to come in the company of the Priests and the Boy not take particular notice of him And 't is as little an Objection what my Lord says that Turbervill himself said he did not know the Boy how many are there that come to the Houses of another and unless they Lodge there or dine there often do not remember the Servants of the House And 't is no greater an Objection to say the Servants did not know him The Priests they knew him they were his Guides they were the likeliest to gain him Admittance not only into my Lord's House but into my Lord's Heart My Lords Your Lordships will be pleased likewise to observe They have also gone about in very little matters to disprove Mr. Turbervill as that whereas he says he was not well used by my Lord Powis and his Lady when he returned from Doway that he was very well used and as one Witness I think Minhead says he was permitted to lie in a Room near my Lord's Chamber My Lords Mr. Turbervill does not pretend to say that my Lord Powis shut him out of doors but what Reproaches or unkind Words might pass between them in private Minhead might not hear So that to say that he lay in my Lord's House is no Answer to this Matter And for the other Witness his Brother that speaks of his Kindreds being kind to him that under favour does not at all disprove him for what was the kindness His Brother and Sister were so kind as to give him Seven Pounds never to see him more a great matter when a younger Brother lies upon a Family that the trouble of his stay there is redeemed at the price of Seven Pound This was a very great kindness a kindness indeed that one would scarce deny to a Stranger if in Poverty I mention the least matters I can remember because I would have nothing stick with your Lordships Then Secretary Lydcott the Fellow of Kings Colledge was called again but indeed my Lords he was so out in his Arithmetick so mistaken in the Year and used the New Stile the Romish so much more than ours that it makes me suspect he is not so great a Protestant as he pretends to be He promised us his Book which he was not then prepared to produce but because we do not hear of him nor of his Book since we say no more of him My Lords John Porter my Lord Powis's Butler comes next and what does he tell your Lordships Why that Mr. Turbervill came not to Powis's House it seems he did not appear there but that he came to a Victualling House hard by and he telling Turbervill he must know something of the Plot he denied that he knew any thing To the same purpose or rather to less and more improbably does Yalden the Gentleman of Grays Inn as he calls himself testifie who says that walking in Grays Inn Walks he had discourse with Turbervill and that he then swore there was no Trade good now but that of a Discoverer and damned himself because he could make no Discovery Truly my Lords this looks in it self to be something prepared for the purpose It is not probable that a Man that should use those horrid Oaths and should have such a mind to be a Discoverer should disable himself ever to be so by swearing he knew nothing But I will not only answer that matter with saying 't is improbable but I shall desire Your Lordships to remember that Mr. Powel a Gentleman of the same House and of good Reputation does swear that Turbervill did acquaint him that he could discover a considerable matter and this was above a year since And Mr. Arnold a Member of the House of Commons does confirm it that he did several times acquaint him that he could make an important Discovery and gave him several reasons why he thought not fit to do at that time because of the Dangers which might arise from some Great Men and therefore till he had a more convenient Opportunity he would not discover But as soon as the Parliament sate very early he did begin to discover So that I shall oppose the Testimony of Mr. Powel and Mr. Arnold to the Testimony of my Lord Powis's Butler and Mr. Yalden the latter of whom speaks so improbably and of a Discourse half a year ago whereas Mr. Powel speaks of what Mr. Turbervill said above a year since and Mr. Arnold of a longer time My Lords It hath been sometimes objected that Mr. Turbervill was a Stranger to my Lord and it was too great a Trust to commit to a Stranger too great a Secret for a Stranger to be acquainted with My Lord's design of the King's Death was too great a matter to lodge with one with whom my Lord had no more Acquaintance than he had with Turbervill Your Lordships will be pleased to observe who they were that did introduce him and who probably gave the best Character of him they were the three Priests and I do not wonder when these Priests had brought my Lord up to such a purpose that they should prevail with his Lordship to give Credit to and deal with a Man that was not very unlike in his Circumstances to attempt such a business For your Lordships will observe he was a man that was very stout for against my Lord's reflection upon him as to Cowardise in deserting the Army Mr. Turbervill hath produced the Certificate of his dismission which gives him a very good Character Besides he was a man indigent and therefore I think there could not be a fitter man chosen for the purpose if he had been so void of all Grace as to undertake it And that Priests having gotten a man so qualified as they thought him were not likely to let slip such an opportunity But My Lords to come to that which is the sum of the business and which my Lord lays more weight on than all the rest and that is the Affidavit which Mr. Turbervill swore before the Justices of the Peace which was in effect what he informed the House of Commons and in that Affidavit besides his alteration of Times which I have spoken to already it is objected that he does say that which
is manifestly untrue For he says my Lord came by the way of Calice with Count Gramont neither of which my Lord did do My Lords I will not mention the Master of the Yacht nor the Witnesses from the Admiralty which make out that my Lord came from Diep and not from Calice Nor do I deny that my Lord came by himself and not with Count Gramont and therefore 't is most certainly true that what Turbervill swore as to those two particulars was not true Yet if your Lordships please to observe the Circumstances tho' what he swore herein was not true it will appear a very innocent mistake For in Turbervill's Affidavit he tells your Lordships that he came away without my Lord to Diep and came from Diep to England before my Lord Stafford left Paris Mr. Turbervill tells you afterwards my Lord came from Calice with Count Gramont Mr. Turbervill could not possibly be thought to speak this of his own knowledge because he does in the same Affidavit tell you too that he came away before my Lord and had not his passage with him So that my Lords I desire you would observe it could be no design of his to affirm this of his own knowledge For if it were he took a very ill course to disclose in the same Affidavit that he was absent and so could not speak of his own knowledge And my Lords suppose a man did swear such a man and he were in such company and that he came home and left the man there and that afterwards the man said such and such things in that company what should I say of this Oath I might well say the words of his Oath were not proper or that he was unweary in expressing himself but I could not say nor would any man justly be able to say he had a design to make the World believe he heard him say so because he swears in the same breath he came away before the Words were spoken If Mr. Turbervill had understood how strict and nice a man ought to be in expressing himself in an Affidavit he would have said as he had been told my Lord â—ame by Calice and that Count Gramont came with him as he understood 'T is true he hath not put in those words but I beseech you when the matter it self will bear it nay when 't is most apparent that Mr. Turbervill could have no other meaning than to relate what he was informed by others and what he could not know himself what corruption what obliquity can there be in this Oath All that can be said is it was not cautiously worded but it does certainly disclose so much in it self that every one that hears it must say That he did not take upon himself to swear it as of his own knowledge because he tells you he was not there so that it was rather want of knowledge how to express himself properly than any corruption in his Oath or forswearing himself But says my Lord how should he come to know this Why Mr. Turbervill said he had a Letter whereby he knew my Lord would come by the way of Calice but where is that Letter Is it necessary to keep or does any man almost keep Letters of no greater concernment than this that my Lord writ him word how he would go by the way of Calice and this after five years and after he was in the Wars and where I have heard he was taken Prisoner To be sure he was much tumbled up and down from place to place And under all these Circumstances might not such a Letter be lost But my Lords I beseech you are there not some Proofs that look much this way made out by another Witness Does not Mr. Mort tell you something of this Nature First he agrees as to the matter of an English Lord lying about such a Street in Paris he tells you he was with Mr. Turbervill and that he himself walked about Laxenburgh House whilst Mr. Turbervill went to speak with that English Lord he does say he believes his Name was my Lord Stafford but he is not positive and the times which he speaks of do agree with what Mr. Turbervill deposeth And there is one thing which tho' I should not mention upon any other occasion because it was but a foolish Joke yet I shall crave leave to speak of it now He tells you That one day while they were at Diep in expectation of my Lords coming and hearing that he went another way they had this piece of minute Wit upon it Cursed is he that relies upon a broken Staff whereby he thinks was meant the Name of Stafford So then â— beseech you if Mort say true are not here footsteps and a foundation whereon to ground a belief That there was a Correspondence between Turbervill and my Lord and that Mr. Turbervill had an Information that my Lord would come by the way of Calice And one thing more Mort says that Turbervill told him if he would make haste to Calice he might go over with my Lord. And here I would observe how should Mr. Turbervill come to know that my Lord went that way and how should he tell Mort that he might go over with my Lord from Calice unless he had receiv'd some such Information Therefore my Lords taking into Consideration what is confirmed by Mort and taking into Consideration the whole scope of the Affidavit I cannot see that there can be any material Objection against Mr. Turbervill for saying That my Lord came by Calice in the Company of Count Gramont My Lords I have done now with the Witnesses and I told you as I went along because I would not trouble you with a double Repetition what Evidence we have given in contradiction to those Witnesses which my Lord hath brought in order to defame our Witnesses But my Lords I am to acquaint you That besides these particular Answers your Lordships have had men of very great Credit brought to testifie the Reputation of Mr. Dugdale and Mr. Turbervill As to Mr. Dugdale we have brought men that have known him a great while one hath sworn what Opinion even my Lord Aston himself had of him for it seems he lived with so much Credit there that he would not believe any ill of him You have heard from other Witnesses how he did behave himself It was objected sometimes Tradesmen were not paid but what then can a man pay without Money I believe there are some Lords here whose Stewards are very honest men and yet the Tradesmen such Lords deal with are not always readily paid He was as you observe believed to be in the Plot and my Lord's Servants say he seemed much troubled about it he went away upon that Account and was so much concerned that he burnt his Papers which I make use of for two Purposes The one to shew that he did apprehend he was in great danger the other to shew what was the Reason why the
Letters and Papers he speaks of are not now produced because he looked upon himself and them who were then his Friends to be in such danger by them that he burnt them My Lords I know your Lordships will take notice that there hath been a very good Account given you how it was that Dugdale came to be prevailed upon to make a Discovery of the Plot it was with great difficulty there were indeed persuasions used by some of his Friends to bring him to it The Justices as they themselves have sworn endeavoured the same thing but all without success Then the Coroner Mr. Southall who tho' he was no great yet seems to be a very understanding man takes him in hand and he had the good Fortune to succeed I call it Good not only for Mr. Dugdale but for the Nation I shall not trouble your Lordships with the particulars of the Arguments Mr. Southall used to him but 't is plain if you believe Mr. Southall whose Credit is now supported by an Honourable Lord and by a Member of the House of Commons that Dugdale did at the first time that he did make a Discovery depose as much in substance against this Lord as now he does And from thence I desire to make one Observation and that is this 'T was impossible it could be a Contrivance among the Witnesses themselves to depose the same Crimes against this Lord for Doctor Oats never knew Mr. Dugdale till Dugdale was brought up which was long after Doctor Oats his Accusation of this Lord nor could Dugdale know what Evidence Oats had given here for Dugdale was a close Prisoner in Stafford Gaol before Oats accused this Lord and long after And yet the first Evidence Dugdale gives against this Lord doth in substance concur with that given by Doctor Oats So that since there could be no Intercourse nor Conference between them but as much distance as from the Prison Doors in Stassord to London there could be no Contrivance between them for both of them to accuse this Lord of the same Matters And this I desire may be looked upon by your Lordships as a Matter of great Weight to support the Credit of the whole Evidence And Dugdale does seem to be a person of an unquestionable Credit and every one that hears him must observe he does give his Evidence with great Mcdesty and all probability of Truth There is another thing my Lords that I would pray your Lordships to observe These Witnesses Mr. Dugdale and Doctor Oats do give such an Evidence as is impossible to be given unless it were true for other Witnesses when they are put out of the Road and asked Questions they did not expect are commonly to seek and must pump for an Answer and then answer with great difficulty and wariness But these two Witnesses do not only answer with readiness when you ask them any Questions but what is contained in every new Answer doth add a further probability and confirmation to what they said before And I must needs say of them I think it were impossible for any men in the World to contrive a Story of so many particulars and so consistent in every part of it and yet the same should be false and which is more after so many Tryals not one material Circumstance of what they say contradicted by any solid proof My Lords There may be other particulars which I may have forgotten I know not whether I observed that my Lord objected that we do not prove him a Papist I hinted something before about his coming to Mass to my Lord Aston's at Tixal which is one sort of proof of his being of the Romish Religion Besides his perpetual Conversation with that Party and his Endeavours to promote their Religion and Designs all which have been fully proved I think also my Lord deserted the House of Peers for that he would not take the Test appointed by the late Act your Lordships best know whether he did so or no. But my Lords let him if he will be a Protestant for this time let that be supposed If he were a Protestant and should be guilty of the Offences proved upon him he would not deserve the more Favour from your Lordships My Lord hath been likewise pleased in further proof of his Innocency to alledge that after the Plot was discovered he had seven Posts time to have escaped and yet never fled My Lords 'T is true he might have fled so might Coleman too that Coleman that left so fatal an Evidence against himself and all his Party under his own hand and for that had reason to believe himself very Guilty and so might the Jesuits have escaped too but that they had hopes the Oath of Secresie and the means they had used to conceal their damnable Designs would have been a sufficient Security against revealing it They had that opinion of their Priests and of the Fidelity and Constancy of those that had been seduced by them and recommended by them that they apprehended nothing less than a Discovery And those other persons that were executed did all stay about the Town after the Plot was discovered as well as this Lord staid in the Countrey My Lord did very much complain That our Witnesses were not positive in point of Time I think Dugdale was positive enough as to the time of the Offer of 500 l. but for other matters he would not confine himself to a Month he talked of the latter end of one Month and the beginning of another I think he is the more to be believed for I conceive unless a Witness hath some notorious Circumstance in his memory to satisfie him about the certainty of the time such as was that of the Foot-race as to the time of the Offer of 500 l. it is rather a mark of presumption than of sincerity for a Witness to be too positive as to the time And is there so great a distance between the latter end of one Month and the beginning of another that a Witness need to be positive as to the very day but says my Lord you talk of the beginning it was the 12 th of September ere I came thither Does not every man count that till the middle of a Month 't is the beginning of a Month sure in common speech it is so Therefore I look upon that as a matter scarce worth the mentioning I am sure not worth the serious Answering But my Lords I must observe thus much That what my Lord complains of as a fault in our Witnesses his own Witnesses are guilty of For I appeal to your Lordships when they came to speak of Times whether they did not talk at the distance of a Month or Months and sometimes of Years and less certain in point of Time than ours But says my Lord for I am still answering his Objections and you must take them as I find them here is mention made by Dr. Oats of Letters of many Letters shew me some
of those Letters shew me the Letter you carried to the Post-house My Lords were those Letters written to Dr. Oats Did they belong to him Or is it possible that my Lords Letter delivered by the Doctor to the Post-house should now be shewn by the Doctor or that the Letters writ to the Superior of the Society of the Jesuits should be produced by one that was a Novice of that Society Does Dr. Oats talk of any one Letter written to himself You will then I suppose see no reason to expect those Letters should be produced by him that were not written to him and the custody whereof belonged to others My Lords I must observe to You that there have been great Endeavours used to Invalidate our Testimony we have had Witnesses called against Witnesses and my Lord hath had that Advantage to do it which perhaps was never given in any Case before and which I hope will never be again The Evidence hath been Printed and Published to the World before it hath been given I say not that it was not necessary in this Case which was a National Cause and the Cause of our Religion but I do say it would not be fit to be done in other Cases for the notifying of the Evidence is the way to have it falsified and corrupted But notwithstanding all these Advantages my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories what considerable contradiction hath been given It is true some Witnesses to that end have been brought before your Lordships but those Witnesses have been rendred incredible by more credible persons and I would desire your Lordships to observe That tho' my Lord hath failed of proving any Subornation in our Witnesses yet we have proved much Subornation endeavoured by his Agents Your Lordships have the Record against Redding before you and what Reference that hath to the Lords in the Tower every one does remember and my Lord is mentioned in that Record And I might likewise mention the business of Cellier and what therein related to the Lords in the Tower and I 'le name but two Witnesses more that have been attempted upon this Nature There was Wright the Barber all the Applications were made to him that could be Money given Letters writ Insinuations that he was not to Swear he was but to Write and that was easily done or if he would be so kind to Swear it he should never come into open Court only go before a Justice of Peace So that your Lordships will observe by what steps and degrees men were endeavoured to be Suborned And then Launder tells you what was offered to him to perjure himself how he was brought to Tixall and what endeavours were used to make him Swear against our Witnesses These things are plain both by Records and particular Proofs upon Oath But my Lords lest we should want proof of all This very Lord I pity him for it hath been so unfortunate as to bring that Paper out of his Pocket which Wright says he had money to frame and was to Swear to It seems my Lord had the Command of it it seems to have been prepared for such a good time as This and the producing of this Paper is as full a Confirmation of this point as can in reason be expected My Lords I have been I fear too long already and yet I fear I have omitted as many particulars as I have mentioned My Lords The Evidence is so strong that I think it admits of no doubt and the Offences proved against my Lord and the rest of his Party are so foul that they need no aggravation The Offences are against the King against His Sacred Life against the Protestant Religion nay against all Protestants for it was for the Extirpation of all Protestants out of these Three Nations I mean not of every one that is now so but of every one that would have continued so every one amongst us if these Designs had been accomplished must either have turned his Religion or turned out of his Countrey or have been burned in it 'T is a Design that appears with so dreadful a Countenance to Your Lordships to this great Assembly and to the whole Nation that it needs not any words I can use to make you apprehend it If the matter be fully proved as I see no reason to doubt but that it is I am sure your Lordships will do that Justice to Your King and Countrey as to give Judgment against these Offenders which will not only be a Security to us against them but a Terror to all others against comitting the like Offences L. Stafford I beg of your Lordships to know whether you will give me leave to speak a word And my Lords I shall not speak any thing but as to a mistake Sir Will. Jones hath made in two or three things Pray my Lords may I put you in mind of them Sir William Jones If there be any mistake pray tell us what it is L. Stafford First My Lords he did omit telling you that Mr. Turbervill's Brother did say he came in 71 to my Lord Powis's Secondly He says I have proved my self a Papist because I have not taken the Test My Lords the Test was since I was in the Tower and whether I will take it or not I do not yet know till it be offered me The Third is this That this Letter was in my Pocket which I produced to you my Lords I knew nothing what was in it it was given into my hand as I stood here at the Bar. Fourthly He said Hobson did go out of England with the Almoner he did not so Another thing he says that I said Oats was an infamous person because he went to a Church that I said was Idolatrous I only said it was so adjudged by Act of Parliament I find my Lords these things he is mistaken in and that my Lords made me very willing to put You in mind of them L. H. Steward Gentlemen I would ask you whether you take any Notice of the Points in Law Sir Fran. Winn. After the Fact is stated my Lords we shall Then Mr. Powle also one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence proceeded further in Summing up of the same Mr. Powle My Lords the Learned Person that spake last hath left very little for me to say in the Summing of this Evidence But because this Noble Lord hath been pleased to alledge several Reasons from whence he would infer at least a great improbability that he should be guilty of the Treasons whereof he stands Accused I shall crave your Lordships patience that I may give Three or Four words in answer to those particulars My Lords In the first place this Noble Lord was pleased to begin and afterwards to continue his Defence with making protestations of his own Innocency We very well know your Lordships sit now in the Seat of Justice and whatsoever credit or regard your Lordships please to give to the Protestations of a Peer in
Then when Godfrey was murther'd how came that Discovery out but by the voluntary Confession of one engaged in the whole Plot I mean Bedloe So that though these men had engaged themselves by wicked Oaths yet their own Consciences witnessing against them in themselves they could not forbear coming in to testifie against themselves I shall say no more than that we ought to acknowledge the Hand of God in the Discovery with great Thankfulness for it is He and He alone that out of his own Grace and Goodness hath done it and thereby preserved the Life of our Prince to us and in Him us too But as to the Matter in Law My Lord has been pleased to mention first this That there is no Overt Act. I wonder that my Lord should be so much mistaken When it is charged in the Articles and proved to his Face he received a Commission Is not that an Overt Act He is charged in the Articles of Impeachment with Contriving the Death of the King and being at several Meetings and Consults about the King's Death and Hâ—â—ing Persons to Kill the King And are these no Overt Acts Therefore as to that my Lord is mistaken My Lords another Exception that is taken is That there is no Indictment I conceive that an Impeachment of the House of Commons is more than an Indictment And there cannot be any doubt of that the Impeachment of the House of Commons having always been received and proceeded on by your Lordships But that which is most insisted upon is That this Charge that is made against this Lord was presented in another Parliament It is true but under favour what is once upon Record in Parliament may at any time afterwards be proceeded upon It is a sudden Objection but I conceive it hath been done However in a Case of this Nature when the Life of the King when our own Lives and our Nation and our Religion lies at stake if there were not a Precedent I hope You would make a Precedent But under favour Reason is for it the Charge is before You the Proof is made and we pray You will judge according as the Evidence hath been Sir Will. Jones My Lords as to these Matters of Law I think they are of so little difficulty that my Lord will not desire to have Counsel assigned him I am sure his Counsel will not desire to speak to them For this last Matter which Mr. Serjeant spoke of and which was first named by the Prisoner I desire your Lordship to consider what it is Says my Lord the Prisoner there was an Impeachment begun in the Long Parliament and this is now the Third Parliament in which I am brought to my Tryal It is very true there was a General Impeachment in the Long Parliament the particular one was in the last and this Lord was pleased to plead in the last It may be he was not so well advised then as he is now But my Lords How can this be a doubt when your Lordships have resolv'd and have sent it down to the Commons and it is there entred in their Book as the Law and Constitution of Parliaments that not only Impeachments but all Judicial proceedings continue from Parliament to Parliament in the same state that they were in at the Rising of the last Parliament This is now become the Law of Your House and it is under favour being so the Law of the Kingdom and You having thus declared it and sent it to the Commons I hope the Commons had very good reason to proceed upon this Impeachment at this time The next matter is concerning the Overt Acts I think there are sufficient Overt Acts in proof and sufficient in the Impeachment Will any man deâ—y thaâ— tâ—e Receiving a Commission to be Pay-master of an Army is an Overt ' Act Will any deny that the sending for the Witness and offering him money in order to hire him to kill the King is an Overt Act and which answers to all will any man deny that the meeting and consulting of several men together about killing the King and changing the Government is an Overt Act. My Lords These are all Overt Acts and I cannot but think it was without advice of my Lords Counsel that he made these Objections for indeed these several Overt Acts are laid in the Impeachment as fully as they are made out in proof My Lords there is another Objection that my Lord is pleased to make and that is that there is but one Witness to a particular Fact L. H. Steward Ay What say you to that Sir Will. Jones That my Lords is of little weight with submission for our Impeachments and our Proofs run to this that my Lord had a Design and Intention to destroy the King this was to be done by Force and this was to be done by secret Assassination Now if several Witnesses come and prove each a distinct Act under this Head of killing the King it is so many Proofs or Witnesses to the Treason For my Lords if a man shall intend to kill the King and shall buy a Knife in one County at one time and send for a man out of another County at another time whom he shall hire to kill the King and these distinct Acts are proved by several Witnesses if they concur to the same general Treason they are all but parts of that and so are so many Witnesses to the whole And so I am sure it was resolved in the Case of others of the Conspirators in the Old Baily and before that in the Case of Sir Henry Vane But My Lords in this Case here is first a Proof that he accepted a Commission which I do not use as an Act for the levying of War only but as a Design to change the Government and destroy the King Here is meeting and consulting how to do this wicked Work I mean to kill the King that is another Overt Act Here is offering money to one of the Witnesses for that end that is a third Overt Act and there is attempting another of them though not with Money yet with Promises of Reward in general that is another Overt Act all which are to this end the Killing of the King And I am sure of it your Lordships cannot but receive satisfaction from my Lords the Judges that it hath always been so held that though there need Two Witnesses to prove Treason yet there needs no more than one to one Act and another to another if the several Acts fall under the same Head of Treason Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords I crave your patience but for a word or two and this Noble Lord will have little Reason to say his Objections in point of Law are of any weight I confess he had said a great thing if it were true that the Articles of Impeachment did not alledge an Overt Act for then indeed they had been apparently defective But under his pardon that is not a point of Law but
therefore if you are so speak You have the Protection of the Court for the Counsel you give in matter of Law and whatever Advice you give you should maintain by Law Mr. VVallop Truly my Lords it is a Point that has as I said before received some Settlement but whether ever in this Court or no I cannot tell Therefore I did discharge my thoughts of providing any Argument till your Lordships should have determined whether you will take the Point upon the Resolutions in the Courts below to be finally settled and determined Sir William Jones So then it is agreed to be settled in the ordinary Courts Lord Stafford I desire also it may be argued whether words are an Overt Act. Sir Francis Winnington It seems the Law is with us in case of a Commoner but whether it be so for a Lord is the Question Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford How comes it to pass that your Lordship came prepared with Objections but not with Counsel ready to argue them Lord Stafford Mr. Wallop has given you an Answer I must stand by that Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward This House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned to their House in their Order and the Committee of Commons staid in their Places to attend their Resolutions In one hours time the Lords returned and my Lord High Steward being seated upon the Woolpack Silence was proclaimed Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford My Lords since they have been withdrawn have considered of one Point of that point chiefly which your Lordship did move touching the necessity of two Witnesses to every Overt Act alledged as Evidence of High Treason that is the point you have desired Counsel to speak to and that is the point your Counsel desired to know whether it was a doubtful or debateable point before they would argue it and hereupon my Lords did withdraw to consider it And my Lords have directed that all the Judges that assist them and are here in your Lordships presence and hearing should deliver their Opinions whether it be doubtful and disputable or no. Then all the Judges consulted privately together and afterwards gave their Opinion Seriatim beginning with the Lord Cbief Justice North the Lord Chief Justice Scroggs being absent Lord Chief Justice North. My Lords I do here deliver my Opinion and I am cleà r in it That if there be several Overt Acts or Facts which are Evidences of the same Treason if there be one Witness to prove one such Overt Act at one time and another Witness to prove another Overt Act at another time both the Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are two sufficient Witnesses of that Treason and will maintain an Indictment or an Impeachment of Treason I never knew any doubt made of it in any Inferiour Court of Justice and I have known it often resolved Lord Chief Baron Montague My Lords where ever Treason is to be proved to every Overt Act two Witnesses as I conceive are not required If so be there are two Witnesses to several Overt Acts conducing to a proof of the same Treason I think they are Witnesses in the Judgment of the Law such as the Statute requires Mr. Justice Windham I am of the same Opinion with my Lord Chief Justice North and my Lord Chief Baron That if there be several Overt Acts done at several times tending to the same Treason these several Acts being severally proved by several credible Witnesses though but by one Witness at each time to each Act the said several Acts being Evidences of the same Treason these are sufficient Witnesses of that Treason so proved and will maintain an Indictment or as I conceive an Impeachment Mr. Justice Jones My Lords if several Witnesses speak to the same kind of Treason although they speak to several Overt Acts and give Evidence of several times the one of them speaking to one time and the other to another time yet keeping still to the same kind of Treason they are such two Witnesses as are required by the Statute of Edward the 6 th and this I do take to be the constant Opinion of the Courts below Mr. Justice Dolben My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I know it hath been many times so resolved I have been present when Sentence hath passed upon Persons by whom the same Case hath been urged and it hath been so resolved And it hath been moved in Westminster-Hall and that was the constant Opinion of the Judges there particularly in the Case of Sir Henry Vane It was upon solemn Debate resolved and divers times it hath been held that the same Treason may be proved by two Witnesses to several Overt Acts though one speak of Words or Actions that were spoken or done at one time and in one place and another speak of Words or Actions at another time and in another place those are two good Witnesses in Treason within the intent of the Law and if the Law were otherwise 't were scarce possible to convict any man of Treason and therefore I take it to be very clear Mr. Justice Raymond I am of the same Opinion That where several Cirstances are brought to prove the same Treason one Witness to each of the several Circumstances is sufficient and this I conceive hath been always the Opinion of the Judges Mr. Baron Atkins My Lords I am of the same Opinion That there must be two Witnesses in the Case of Treason is a matter without Question but there are several Overt Acts that may contribute to the effecting of that Treason If a man designs to kill the King and buyes Powder at one place at one time and a Pistol at another place at another time and promises a Reward to one to assist him to do the thing at a third place and a third time these are several Overt Acts but if the Law requires that each be proved by two Witnesses I do not well see how any man can be Convicted of Treason In the Case of Sir Henry Vane and others this very Question was started but was not thought worthy of Debate if it should be otherwise it would touch the Judgments which have been given upon this kind of Proof and what would the Consequence of that be but that those persons who were Executed upon those Judgments have suffered illegally And therefore I am of Opinion that it is not requisite there should be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. Mr. Baron Gregory My Lords I am of the same Opinion it is Treason to Conspire the Death of the King Now each of the Witnesses is a Witness to prove that Treason the one says he offered him such a Reward in such a place that is one Witness to prove that he Conspired the Death of the King and another says that he offered him such a Reward in another place that is another Witness that he Conspired the
Death of the King For the Party is indicted upon one particular Overt Act but he is indicted for Treason in Conspiring the Death of the King and each of thâ— Witnesses being to prove that though they speak to several Acts they are good Witnesses according to the Law Mr. Baron Weston My Lords I am of the same Opinion with my Reverend Brethren who have spoke before me Mr. Justice Charlton My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I think truly it would be the easiest matter for a man to Commit Treason and escape without questioning if it should be otherwise But this is the first time that I have heard it hath been made a Question that to the same Treason there must be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. It hath been adjudged always according to the Law that to prove Treason there must be two Witnesses but to any Overt Act there needs but onâ— Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford By the uniform Opinion of all my Lords the Judges there is no colour to doubt the Law in that point which you desire to argue So that as to that point you must rest satisfied you are not to have Counsel to speak to it For the rest I have no Commission yet from my Lords to say any thing Lord Stafford Will your Lordships give me leave to say one thing to what I have heard I would answer if I might only to one Judge I think they call him Judge Atkins Lord High Steward Your Lordship may say what you please Lord Stafford My Lords I hear a strange Position I never heard the like before in my life and 't is what he said if I am in the wrong I beg your Lordships pardon and his too He told your Lordships the Reason why the Law should be so was because else a great many of those persons that have already been Executed must have been acknowledged unjustly cut off and put to Death that is an Argument I hope will not weigh with your Lordships or any body for 't is better that a Thousand persons that are Guilty should escape than that one Innocent person should die much more then that it should not be declared that such a Judgment was not well given Lord High Steward Look you my Lord where many Reasons are given 't is easie to make a Reply to one of the least among many that was one Reason given but the true Reason is this if the Law were otherwise there would be great safety in Conspiring the Death of the King Lord Stafford My Lords I say nothing further as to the rest but this stuck with me I am sorry to hear a Judge should say any such thing and though I am in such a weak and disturbed Condition I assure your Lordships my Blood rises at it Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber The Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to the Bar in Westminster-Hall on Munday morning next at Ten of the Clock After which the House of Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock on Munday morning The Sixth Day Munday December 6. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven in the morning the Lords being Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there Erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were Seated as before The Court being Sate Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant Commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began Lord High Steward Read my Lord Stafford's Petition To the Right Honourable the Lords in Parliament Assembled The humble Petition of William Viscount of Stafford Humbly shewing unto your Lordships that he hath some things to offer unto your Lordships in order to clear himself which he hopeth to do Your Petitioner doth therefore with all humility most humbly beseech your Lordships to give him leave to offer some things unto your Lordships Consideration And your Petitioner shall ever pray c. Stafford Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford my Lords have been willing upon your Petition to come and hear what that is that your Lordship hath to offer And they would know whether it be matter of Fact or matter of Law For your Lordship must know that as to Witnesses the Process is closed Lord Stafford I do not pretend any more Witnesses my Lords Lord High Steward Then my Lord what is it that you would say Lord Stafford My Lords I did Yesterday receive an Order from your Lordships and upon that and some other things that I have to trouble your Lordships with I did petition for this favour which I humbly thank your Lordships for granting If I be impertinent I shall beg your Lordships pardon and I hope you will be pleased to consider my Weakness at all times especially in this condition I am now in but I hope by your Lordships favour to be in an happier one quickly For the matters of proof I shall offer not a tittle but my Lords this Order which I received does say That the Lords Assembled in Parliament have ordered that my Counsel shall not be heard touching the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament but I hope my Lords you will please without Offence to let me offer to your Lordships my own Conceptions about it which I shall do as briefly as I can My Lords I do not conceive by this Order That your Lordships say it does or it does not continue You have given no Judgment as I know of in it when you have I shall acquiesce but I hope your Lordships will resolve that it does not And my Lords my reasons for it are two the first is because one of the Managers for the House of Commons as I take it Sir William Jones said these words and your Lordships may remember them That if there were no such President your Lordships would make a President whether you will or no that I must submit to your Lordships but then there is none yet The next thing is my Lords this whether an Impeachment be to be prosecuted in Parliament without an Indictment this my Lords I humbly hope your Lordships are resolved it ought not For I see not how truely my Lords it can be by the little reading which I have had in the Law I never found any man prosecuted in a Legal way but by an Indictment I may be mistaken and I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my mistakes but I never read of any that were prosecuted upon an Impeachment so then the Legal usual word being Indictment
I hope your Lordships will not alter the form for I hope you will keep that great Maxim of your Noble Ancestors Nolumus Leges Angliae mutare and whether this be a Change of the Law or no I submit it to your Lordships A third thing is this Your Lordships do not think fit that my Counsel shall plead to that Point whether Words do amount to an Overt Act for hearing my Counsel to that likewise I do not pretend but I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say this I never heard that Words did amount to an Overt Act if your Lordships judge otherwise I submit but till then I hope it shall not conclude me There were some other Points which I did offer to your Lordships and I humbly beseech you to know whether my Counsel shall be heard to them 't is true one of them which was whether two Witnesses in several places did amount to a legal Testimony or no your Lordships did not declare one way or another If you say you acquiesce in the Opinion of the Judges I must submit but till Judgment is given I beseech your Lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it I did not hear what the Judges said all of them but as I apprehend they were all of one Opinion 'T is true one of them that spoke last I think it was Judge Atkins did say it did amount to a legal Testimony because else those Juries that have found some Guilty upon the same sort of Evidence should be perjured but if this were not so then upon the same grounds under your Lordships favour those Juries that acquitted some upon such Testimony were perjured but I must believe it to be otherwise till your Lordships have declared it as your Opinion for that reason will not hold for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one as for the perjuring the other And the same Juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship will please to say Lord Stafford No my Lords if you would give me leave I would trouble you a little farther if it were an Offence I would not say a word My Lords I do conceive I am not concerned in the general Plot of the Papists for I am not proved to be so and whatsoever I may be in my self as I conceive or whatsoever there is of hearsay I hope your Lordships will not go upon that but upon what is proved Secundum allegata probata and that common Fame will condemn no man if it do then no man is safe but I must say there is not one word of proof offered that I am a Papist I hope my Lords I have cleared my self to your Lordships and made my Innocency appear by making appear the perjury of the Witnesses and the falshood of those things they said against me Against Dugdale I have proved it by two of his own Witnesses the one was Eld the woman that swore for him That he took up a Glass of Cyder and wished that it might be his Poyson if he knew any thing of the Plot the other was Whitby who says he had given my Lord Aston's Father warning long ago what a Knave he was So 't is clear for Dr. Oats I hope from his Contradictions against himself as well as Dugdale who does contradict himself at one time August at another time the latter end of August or the beginning of September And I hope your Lordships will give no credit to Oats's Testimony for he said before your Lordships he had declared all he knew 't is true I was then accused but not for having a Commission as he now swears and afterwards he accused the Queen so here is Oats against Oats and Dugdale against Dugdale and for Turbervill I have proved by his Affidavit first he swears one thing and then another and the truth of it is his Brother proved him false in his last Oath that it was 7â— and not 72. My Lords 'T is not my part to make any Question nor do I whether a Plot or no Plot for I am not concerned in it If what I shall say now be impertinent I humbly beg your Lordships pardon My Lords I have been by the most of my Friends at least every one that came to me particularly by my Wife and Daughter that is near me persuaded to tell all that I knew and I do here in the presence of Almighty God declare what I know to be true Lord High Steward What says my Lord Speak out Lord Stafford My Lords I do believe since the Reformation from the Church of Rome to what it is now Established the Church of England those of that Religion have had several wicked and ill Designs and Plots I do believe they had a Design in Queen Elizabeth's time Babbington's Plot that is a long time ago how far it was to take away the Queens Life I can't tell but a Plot it was I do believe there was another in her time called Earl of Westmorland's Plot wherein there was a Rebeâ—â—ion in the North for which some fled and some were Executed that was a very ill design As for those poysonings of her Saddle and the like I take them to be but stories In King James's time in the first year of his Reign there was a wicked Plot composed by Actors some of one Religion some of another there was my Lord Grey my Lord Cobham my Lord Brooke and others such they were condemned all of them some fled as Markham and Bainham those Lords and Sir Walter Rawleigh were Reprived and kept long in the Tower But Sir Walter Rawleigh was afterwards upon that same Judgment Beheaded and the Lords dyed in the Tower My Lords Next to that was the Execrable Treason that I spoke of at first the Gun-powder-Treason And I protest before Almighty God I did from my Infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it and I do think and always did think the Wit of Man nor the Devils Malice can't invent an Excuse for it For the men concerned they all acknowledged it confessed it and beg'd pardon of the King and God and all good men for it that is all I shall say to that now My Lords Since his Majesties happy Restauration I do conceive and I think I may safely say it for you all know it he was gracious and good to all Dissentersd particularly to them of the Romish Church they had Connivance and Indulgence in their private Houses and I declare to your Lordships I did then say to some that were too open in their Worship that they did play foul in taking more Liberty upon them than was fitting for them too and that brought the misfortune upon me which I will not name My Lordâ— it was not long ago that your Lordships at your own Bar did allow all the Dissenters from the Church of England
to give some Reasons to your Lordships why those Laws that were against them should be repealed as well Protestant Dissenters as those of the Church of Rome and why they should have some kind of Toleration among whom you did permit those of the Romish Religion to appear too I forget their Names And I remember particularly one of the forts of them an Anabaptist I think did urge for a Reason that which is a great truth that they held Rebellion to be the Sin of Whitchcrast I believe it is as bad as any Sin can be My Lords that came to nothing at that time but my Lords I believe that after that all of all Religions had Meetings among themselves to endeavour to get that Toleration which they proposed humbly to your Lordships there I will never deny my Lords that my Opinion was and is that this Kingdom can never be happy till an Act of Parliament pass to this Effect it was my Opinion then and I did endeavour it all I could that the Dissenting Protestants might have a Comprehension and the other a Toleration I acknowledge it to be my Intention and I think it was no ill one for if that be a true Copy of the Commons Votes which is in Print there is some such thing designing there as a Comprehension and I was of Opinion that it were sufficient that such as were of the Church of Rome might by Act of Parliament serve God in their own Houses and privately in their own Way not in publick and that for it they should pay something to the King out of their Estates but truly not much That they should be severely punished if they or any of them did endeavour to persuade any Subject to their Opinion or did come to Court or enjoy any Office whatsoever though it were but that of a Scavenger but that they should pay their proportion to all chargeable Offices That I profess my Lords was my Opinion and I confess to your Lordships 't is so still I was in some hopes that it would have been done in that Sessions because I was afraid it was unlikely to be done at any time else I confess to your Lordships I was heartily and cordially against the Test because it hindred those just and honest things that were for the Good of the Kingdom My Lords there was the first or or the second Day brought into your Lordships House the Record of Mr. Coleman's Tryal and for the Letters in it I do my Lords declare to your Lordships I never read of one of them before but I have read them since they have been in Print And when I read them first cursorily over my Opinion was and is That Coleman's endavouring by Money out of France and keeping off the Parliament to get a Toleration was that which he could not justifie by Law how fat it was Criminal that I do not know I am not so skilled in the Law I think it was not justifiable but he hath paid for it severely since My Lords I do declare that ever since I had the Honour to fit among your Lordships which is now 40 Years for in the Year 1640. I was by His Majesties favour called up a Peer I have valued my self upon the Honour of sitting with you and I do declare when I have sat in this House when your Lordships have desired the King when it was hot weather and unseasonable to put off the Sitting of the Parliament I was never glad of it but sorry when they were prorogued but for a short time This I profess is true and I hope I am no Criminal in it for I do value the Parliaments Sitting to be the only means to keep this Kingdom quiet My Lords 'T is very true by Coleman's Letters and what I have seen in print since I do believe there have been some Consultations for a Toleration and if I had known as much then as I have since I have been in the Tower I had perhaps prevented many things for my Lords I hold England to be a great and an happy Body but it is as other great Bodies are it may be now as you know before it was over-grown or sick it was then and I pray God it be not now but I hold nothing can cure it but that old English Physician the King your Lordships and the Commons in Parliament assembled But if I had known any such Design as Coleman's Letters do hint I would not have continued in England My Lords For that damnable Opinion of King-killing if I were of any Church whatsoever and found that to be its Principle I would leave it My Lords this is as true as I can speak any thing in the world I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my impertinencies and hope you pardon it to my weakness My Lords I do profess before Almighty God and before your Lordships my Judges I know no one tittle nor point of the Plot and if I did I hold my self bound to declare it For the present I shall say little more unless the Managers give me occasion if they will reply and make any Objections I desire I may answer them I know the great disadvantages I am under when these Gentlemen who are great Scholars and Learned Men reply upon me who have those great helps of Memory Parts and Understanding in the Law all which I want And therefore I hope your Lordships will dot conclude me upon what they or I have said but will be pleased to debate the matter among your selves and be as well my Counsel as my Judges My Lords when I offer to your Lordships matter of Law I did in no wise admit the matter of Fact Lord High Steward My Lord I cannot hear you Lord Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please that Paper may be read Lord High Steward Deliver your Paper in my Lords cannot hear Lord Stafford I cannot â—eny to your Lordships that what happened to me on Saturday night disturbed me very much Every day since I came â—â—ther there hath been such shouting and houting by a Company of barbarous Rabble as never was heard the like I believe but it was at a distance most of the time and so it did not much concern me But Saturday night it was so near and so great that really it hath disturbed me ever since it was great to day but at a distance if it were not thus I should not offer a Paper to be read I scarce know what I do or say considering the Circumstances I am in Lord High Steward Take my Lords Paper and read it Sir Thomas Lee. My Lords I desire you will please to consider whether this may not introduce a new Custom by reading of this Paper As to what my Lord is pleased to say I am sorry for the occasion that any disturbance should arise to my Lord from the Rabble or any one else I hope his Lordship believes we cannot help nor do we contribute to that
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though
A wicked beginning it was and it had a wicked end For since our Saviours Death and Murder by the Jews never was so execrable a Murder in the World and whoever had an hand in it without an extraordinary Repentance can have no thoughts of Salvation I never could serve the King 't is true but in my desires and I never disserted him in Thought Word or Deed to my knowledg in my life much less did I ever contrive or consent to his Death I do in the presence of God Angels your Lordships and all Men declare I do know no more of the Plot or any such thing than any one here does That those of the Romish Religion had meetings I believe to obtain those ends that I spake of before Coleman went too far how far he was Criminal in it I cann't tell Meetings I say there were but I was never at one of them nor do I know what was done there I do leave it to your Lordships to do Justice as I know you will and with all submission I resign my self up to you Lord High Steward Have you done my Lord Lord Stafford If your Lordships will not allow me Counsel to argue those Points I have done Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords some thing that my Lord hath spoken hath been resolved against him that is about two Witnesses to each Overt-act some things are not to be disputed about the Law and Course of Parliaments some things were not to be said now because he had said them before My Lords we had concluded our Evidence and he is pleased to take up the time with repeating what was said before For the other matters that my Lord is pleased to discourse of all he says is but his Obligations and how unreasonable it were for him to do it the Question is whether he hath done it or no if he hath his Obligations are an Aggravation of his Crime not an Excuse His Relations his Family and other things are nothing before your Lordships now in point of Judgment nor is there any thing new said to day that was not said before Sir William Jones My Lords I should not add one word further were it not that this Noble Lord is pleased upon his Memory or rather without to say something of me and that was that speaking of the Continuance of Procâ—edings I should say if your Lordships had no President I hope you would make one My Lords I do appeal to your Lordships Memory whether I said any thing like it I utterly deny it nor was there any occasion for it For there was no need of urging Presidents when your Lordships upon a Conference with the Commons did declare it to be the Law of Proceedings in Parliament and did then fortifie iâ— with many Arguments I know my Lords Memory is not very good I 'm sure in this he is very much mâ—staken My Lord hath been pleased to complain he hath received much disturbance and that the Noise and Shouts have been so great that they have occasioned some lâ—straction in him My Lords I am sure his Lordship cannot mean us for I appeal to your Lordships and all that have heard this Tryal whether he hath received the least disturbance or interruption from us or whether we have not treated him with that respect that becomes his Dignity and the Discretion that ought to be in the Managers of the House of Commons But I must needs say that his Lordship hath received distraction from those Friends or Counsel of his that put those many Papers into his Hand for he hath read one after another that do contain the same matter over and over again These I confess were sufficient to distract him or any other that should make use of them His Lordship hath been pleased to go off from the matter of Law to the matter of Fact and backward and forward so that it is impossible to follow him And as to the matter of Fact we shall decline to follow him for though we have not given his Lordship any disturbance yet we submit to your Judgment whether it be Regular or according to the Course of Proceedings when his Lordship hath sum'd up his Evidence and we that are the Prosecutors have concluded ours he should begin that work again which if it should be admitted we were to reply and he might rejoin upon us and so there would be no end of Proceedings And my Lords I hope though this Lord hath had the favour to do it yet it shall not for the future be brought into Example for it will make Tryals endless My Lords for the matter of Law there is nothing that deserves an Answer for though the Law does admit the Prisoner Counsel in matters of Law yet it must be in things doubtful And if there be any thing of that in our Case I submit it to your Lordships I am sure I have heard nothing new but what hath been over-ruled already unless it be a matter of Law which rises upon a matter of Fact and that not proved to wit the Corruption of Witnesses The last day all was said by his Lordship he could say and all said by us that we thought fit to say and now to begin the same matter again I think ought not to be admitted We shall not follow his Lordship in that way of Proceedings and hope it shall never fall into Example Sir Francis Winnington My Lords I have only one word to say to your Lordships and that is in relation to the Proceedings of the Commons in this Cause for if the Cause had not been of an extraordinary nature we should have stood upon it that the Prisoner ought not after the Prosecutors had concluded to have taken a liberty of reading and repeating what we had said over and over again We know my Lords there are are a sort of men in the world who are willing to lay hold of any pretences to cavil at our Proceedings and therefore we have let my Lord take all this liberty that so his Party might have no colour of Complaint His Lordship was pleased to say the last day that he had not a Witness more to produce nor a Reason to give as I understood him and therefore he must own that we have been very tender to him in all our Proceedings One thing my Lord insinuates to day which I cannot forbear taking notice of as if we had delayed him which is without cause we had used all diligence in preparing our selves and were soon ready when the King was pleased to let the Parliament sit and therefore it can be no imputation on us and truly if my Lord considers the weight of the Evidence I fear he will think his Tryal comes soon enough now Lord Stafford My Lords I desire to be rightly understood in one thing and 't is only this I did not say the House of Commons shouted at me but the
Rabble Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure to Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned to the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords withdrew in their former Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have commanded us to acquaint this House that they have appointed William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock to receive Judgment The Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock the next Morning The Seventh Day Tuesday December 7. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were seated as before The Lords being sate Proclamation was made for Silence and the Lord High Steward being seated on the Wool-pack with Garter Principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Nine Maces attending him with all the rest of the Solemnity as was at first expressed took the Votes of the Peers upon the Evidence beginning at the Puisne Baron and so upwards in this Order the Lord Stafford being as the Law requires absent Lord High Steward My Lords I am an humble Suitor to your Lordships That you will give me leave to collect your Votes as I sit for I am not able to stand Which being granted the Lord High Steward proceeded Lord High Steward My Lord Butler of Weston Is William Lord Viscount Stafford Guilty of the Treason whereof he stands Impeached or Not Guilty Lord Butler Not Guilty upon my Honour The same Question was put to the rest whose Names and Votes follow Lord Arundel of Trerice Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Crewe Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cornwallis Guilty upon my Honour Lord Holles Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wootton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Rockingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lucas Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Astley Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ward Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Byron Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Hatton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Leigh Guilty upon my Honour Lord Herbert of Cherbury Guilty upon my Honour Lord Howard of Escrick Guilty upon my Honour Lord Maynard Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lovelace Guilty upon my Honour Lord Deincourt Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Grey of Wark Guilty upon my Honour Lord Brook Guilty upon my Honour Lord Norreys Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chandos Guilty upon my Honour Lord North and Grey Guilty upon my Honour Lord Pagett Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wharton Guilty upon my Honour Lord Eure. Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cromwell Guilty upon my Honour Lord Windsor Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Conyers Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ferrers Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Morley Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Mowbray Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Newport Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Faulconberge Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Conway Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Berkley Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Maslesfield Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Hallifax Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Feversham Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sussex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Guilford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Shaftsbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Burlington Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Ailesbury Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Craven Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carlisle Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bath Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Essex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clarendon Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of St Albans Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Scarsdale Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sunderland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Thanet Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Chesterfield Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carnarvan Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Winchelsea Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Stamford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Peterborough Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl Rivers Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Mulgrave Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Barkshire Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Manchester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Westmorland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clare Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bristol Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Denbigh Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Northampton Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Leicester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bridgwater Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Salisbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Suffolk Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bedford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Huntingdon Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Rutland Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Kent Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Oxford Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chamberlain Not Guilty upon my Honour Marquess of Worcester Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Newcastle Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Monmouth Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Albemarle Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Buckingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Privy-Seal Guilty upon my Honour Lord President Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward Guilty upon my Honour Prince Rupert Duke of Cumberland Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward My Lords upon telling your Votes I find there are Thirty one of my Lords that think the Prisoner Not Guilty and Fifty five that have found him Guilty Serjeant make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar. which was done and his Lordship came to the Bar. Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I have but heavy tidings for you your Lordship hath been Impeached of High-Treason you have pleaded Not Guilty my Lords have heard your Defence and have considered of the Evidence and their Lordships do find you Guilty of the Treason whereof you are Impeached Lord Stafford Gods Holy Name be praised my Lords for it Lord High Steward What can your Lordship say for your self why Judgment of Death should not be given upon you according to the Law Lord Stafford My Lords I have very little to say I confess I am surprized at it for I did not expect it but Gods will be done and your Lordships I will not murmur at it God forgive those that have sworn falsly against me My Lords I conceive I have something to say for respit of Judgment I have been at many Tryals in my Life but I never saw any Tryal where the party tried did not hold up his Hand which I was never asked to do I thought it had been a very material point in the Law That by the holding up of the Hand he might be known to be the Person I have read lately since I had the misfortune to be thus accused Sir Edward Coke upon the Pleas of the Crown and he says that Misnomer the not giving a man
his right name or addition is likewise a just Cause to arrest the Judgment There is likewise another Question how far it may be valued I know not I submit it as I do all to your Lordships Though I am tried upon the Act of 25 Edw. 3 d. yet there is nothing more in that Act than what is included in the Act of the 13 th of this King And I humbly conceive my Lords by that Act and the last Proviso in it a Peer that is accused and found Guilty of the Crimes therein mentioned is to lose his Seat in Parliament those are the words and since 't is so put down in the Act it is so to be understood and that is all the punishment And I humbly demand your Lordships Judgment upon these points whether it be so or no And humbly demand your Lordships Judgments upon these Points whether it be so or no Lord High Steward Has your Lordship any more to say Lord Stafford No my Lords I submit to your Lordships and desire your Judgment in these Points Then the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Committee of Commons returned to their own House and the Speaker having reassumed the Chair the whole Body of the House went with their Speaker to the Bar of the House of Lords to demand Judgment of High Treason against William Viscount Stafford upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England in Parliament in the name of the Commons in Parliament and of all the Commons of England The Commons with their Speaker went back to their House Then the Lords took into consideration what Judgment was to be given upon William Viscount Stafford and it was moved that he might be beheaded After some debate the Judges were asked whether if any other Judgment than the usual Judgment for High Treason were given upon him it would attaint his Blood The Judges were of opinion that the Judgment for High Treason appointed by Law is to be drawn hanged and quartered and in the Courts and Proceedings below they can take no notice of any Judgment for High Treason but that Then Sir Creswell Levinz the Kings Attorney-General desired to be heard on his Majesties behalf which the House gave leave for him to be who said he knew no other Judgment by Law for High Treason but Drawing Hanging and Quartering if any other Judgment were given it would be prejudicial to His Majesty and be a Question in the inferiour Courts as to his Attainder of High Treason Whereupon their Lordships ordered That the Lord High Steward do pronounce the ordinary Judgment of Death upon the Lord Viscount Stafford as the Law hath appointed in Cases of High Treason And a Message was sent to the House of Commons from their Lordships by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker We are commanded by the Lords to acquaint this House That their Lordships are going presently into Westminster-Hall to give Judgment against William Viscount Stafford Mr. Speaker left the Chair The Committee of Commons appointed for the Management of the Evidence against the Prisoner with the rest of the Commons went into Westminster-Hall to the Court there erected to be present when the Lords gave Judgment of High Treason against him upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England After a short time their Lordships were adjourned into Westminster-Hall coming in their former Order into the Court there erected where being seated and the Lord High Steward being on the Wool-sack attended by Garter principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Eight of the Serjeants at Arms kneeling with their Maces the Ninth Macer making proclamation for Silence which being done the Lord High Steward gave Judgment upon the Prisoner as followeth Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford THat which your Lordship hath said in Arrest of Judgment hath been found by my Lords upon due Consideration had of it to be of no moment at all It is no Essential part of any Trial That the Prisoner should hold up his Hand at the Bar there is no Record ever made of it when it is done the only use of it is to shew the Court who the Prisoner is when that is apparent the Court does often proceed against him though he refuse to hold up his Hand at the Bar therefore the omission of that Ceremony in this Case is no legal Exception as all the Judges have declared And as to the Proviso's in the Statute of the 13th year of this King their Lordships do find that they are in no sort applicable to this Case forasmuch as the Proceedings against your Lordship are not grounded upon that Statute but upon the Statute of the 25. E. 3. And yet if the Proceedings had been upon the latter Statute the Proviso's therein could have done your Lordship no service at all My part therefore which remains is a very sad one for I never yet gave Sentence of Death upon any man and am extremely sorry that I must begin with your Lordship Who would have thought that a person of your Quality of so Noble an Extraction of so considerable Estate and Fortune so eminent a Sufferer in the late ill Times so interested in the Preservation of the Government so much obliged to the Moderation of it and so personally obliged to the King and his Royal Father for their particular Favours to you should ever have entred into so Infernal a Conspiracy as to contrive the Murder of the King the Ruin of the State the Subversion of Religion and as much as in you lâ—y the Destruction of all the Souls and Bodies in three Christian Nations And yet the Impeachment of the House of Commons amounts to no less a Charge and of this Charge their Lordships have found you Guilty That there hath been a General and Desperate Conspiracy of the Papists and that the Death of the King hath been all along one chief part of the Conspirators Design is now apparent beyond all possibility of doubting What was the meaning of all those Treatises which were publisht about two years since against the Oath of Allegiance in a time when no man dreamt of such a Controversie What was the meaning of Father Conyers's Sermon upon the same Subject but only because there was a Demonstration of Zeal as they call it intended against the Person of the King which the scruples arising from that Oath did somewhat hinder To what purpose were all the Correspondencies with Foreign Nations The Collections of Money among the Fathers abroad and at home What was the meaning of their Governing themselves here by such Advices as came frequently from Paris and Saint Omers And how shall we expound that Letter which came from Ireland to assure the Fathers here that all things were in a readiness there too as soon as the Blow should be given Does any man now begin to doubt how London came to be Burnt Or by what ways and means poor Justice Godfrey fell And is it not
apparent by these Instances that such is the frantick Zeal of some Bigotted Papists that they resolve No means to advance the Catholick Cause shall be left unattempted though it be by Fire and Sword My Lord As the Plot in General is most manifest so your Lordships part in it hath been too too plain What you did at Paris and continued to do at Tixal in Staffordshire shews a settled purpose of mind against the King and what you said at London touching Honest Will shews you were acquainted with that Conspiracy against the Kings Life which was carrying on here too And in all this there was a great Degree of Malice for your Lordship at one time called the King Heretick and Traytor to God and at another time you revil'd him for misplacing his Bounty and rewarding none but Traytors and Rebels And thus you see that which the Wise man forewarn'd you of is come upon you Curse not the King no not in thy heart for the Birds of the Air shall reveal and that which hath wings will declare the matter Three things I shall presume to recommend to your Lordships consideration In the first place Your Lordship now sees how it hath pleased God to leave you so far to your self that you are fallen into the snare and into the pit into that very pit which you were digging for others Consider therefore that God Almighty never yet left any man who did not first leave him In the next place Think a little better of it than hitherto you have done what kind of Religion that is in which the Blind Guides have been able to lead you on into so much ruin and destruction as is now like to befall you In the last place I pray your Lordship to consider That true Repentance is never too late A devout penitential sorrow joyn'd with an humble and hearty Confession is of mighty power and efficacy both with God and man There have been some of late who have refus'd to give God the Glory of his Justice by acknowledging the Crimes for which they were condemned nay who have been taught to believe that 't is a mortal Sin to confess that Crime in publick for which they have been absolv'd in private and so have not dar'd to give God that Glory which otherwise they would have done God forbid your Lordship should rest upon Forms God forbid your Lordship should be found among the number of those poor mistaken souls whom the first thing that undeceives is Death it self Perhaps your Lordship may not much esteem the Prayers of those whom you have long been taught to miscal Hereticks But whether you do or no I am to assure your Lordship That all my Lords here even they that have condemned you will never cease to pray for you that the end of your life may be Christian and Pious how Tragical soever the means are that must bring you thither And now my Lord this is the last time that I can call you My Lord for the next words I am to speak will Attaint you The Judgment of the Law is and this Court doth Award That YOU go to the place from whence you came from thence you must be drawn upon a Hurdle to the place of Execution When you come there you must be hang'd by the Neck but not till you are dead for you must be cut down alive your Privy-Members must be cut off and your Bowels ript up before your Face and thrown into the Fire Then your Head must be severed from your Body and your Body divided into four Quarters and these must be at the disposal of the King And God Almighty be merciful to your Soul Prisoner My Lords I humbly beseech you give me leave to speak a few words I do give your Lordships hearty Thanks for all your Favours to me I do here in the presence of God Almighty declare I have no Malice in my Heart to them that have condemned me I know not who they are nor desire to know I forgive them all and beseech your Lordships all to pray for me My Lords I have one humble Request to make to your Lordships and that is my Lords That the little short time I have to live a Prisoner I may not be a close Prisoner as I have been of late but that Mr. Lieutenant may have an Order that my Wife and Children and Friends may come at me I do humbly beg this Favour of your Lordships which I hope you will be pleased to give me Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I believe I may with my Lords leave tell you one thing further That my Lords as they proceed with Rigour of Justice so they proceed with all the Mercy and Compassion that may be And therefore my Lords will be humble Suitors to the King that He will remit all the Punishment but the taking off your Head Prisoner Weeping My Lords your Justice does not make me cry but your Goodness Then the Lord High Steward broke his Staff and the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Commons returned to their House and the Prisoner with the Ax born before him with the Edg towards him it being carried contrarily during his Trial was sent back to the Tower His Majesty afterwards ordered the Lord High Chancellor to issue out under the Great Seal of England the following Writs for Executing the said late Viscount Stafford the first being to the Lieutenant of the Tower to deliver him on the Twenty ninth of December 1680. between Nine and Eleven a Clock in the Forenoon at the usual place without the Tower-Gate to the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex and the other being for them then and there to receive him into their Custody and to lead him to the usual place upon Tower-Hill and there to cause his Head to be cut off and severed from his Body Which Writs were in Form following CAROLUS Secundus Dei gratia Angliae Scotiae Franciae Hiberniae Rex fidei defensor c. Locumtenenti Turris nostrae London salutem Cum Willus Vicecomes Stafford per Communes Regni nostri Angliae in Parliamento assemblat ' de alta proditione necnon diversis aliis criminibus offensis per ipsum perpetrat ' commissis impetit ' fuit Ac superinde per Dominos Temporales in praesenti Parliamento nostro convent ' triat ' convict ' debita juris forma attinct ' fuit morti adjucat ' existit Cujus quidem Judicii executio adhuc restat facienda Cumque praedictus Vicecomes Stafford in Turri nostra London sub custodia tua detent ' existit Precipimus tibi per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus quod in super vicesimum nonum diem instantis mensis Decembris inter horas nonam undecimam ante Meridiem ejusdem diei ipsum Vicecomitem Stafford usque locum usualem extra portam Turris predictae ducas ac ipsum Vicecomitibus Civitatis nostrae London Middlesex adtunc
witness against me may look upon me face to face according to the words of the Statute I humbly beseech your Lordships to grant me this which I take to be according to Law and that each may give his Evidence alone and that both against me and for me one may not know what the other says Lord High Stew. My Lord You shall have all the fair proceeding that can be Lord Stafford The Law says my Accusers must look me face to face I desire to have the words read Lord High Steward Your Lordship may see him there where he stands up Then Mr. Smith turned and looked upon my Lord Stafford Lord Safford I do see him but do not know him Lord High Steward Swear him Clerk The Evidence that you shall give in the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and the Contents of this Book Lord High Steward Your Lordship observes he is not brought as a particular Witness against your Lordship but to prove the general Design of your Party Lord Stafford 'T is still concerning me Lord High Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford which he did and now tell your Evidence Mr. Treby This is Mr. Smith my Lords And that which we would examine this Witness to is the general Design of the Plot what knowledge he hath had of it here or beyond Sea the Gentleman is able to understand the general Question Mr. Smith My Lords I remember very well when I went first into France I came acquainted with Abbot Montague Father Gascoyn and several other Popish Priests and Jesuits who often discoursed with me and told me if I would make my self a Catholick I should have an Employment amongst them there and afterwards in England for they did not doubt but the Popish Religion would come in very soon upon which I asked his Lordship the Abbot one day what reason he had to believe it he told me two reasons first that they did not doubt but to procure a toleration of Religion by which they should bring it in without noise and secondly that the Gentry that went abroad did observe the novelty of their own Religion and the Antiquity of theirs and the advantages that were to be had by it These Reasons Abbot Montague gave me There was one Father Bennet and others that told me the chief reason was their party was very strong in England and in a few Years they would bring it in right or wrong All this would not prevail with me to turn Papist and I lived among them several Years At last I had a design to go to Rome and as I went I had a design to go to Provence and so into Italy where there was one Cardinal Grimaldi coming thorough the Town and the Jesuits having a great School there I was curious to go to the School and they were very desirous I should tarry for some time in the Town I did and they made much of me and told me much to the same substance what assurances they had of their Religion coming into England At last they had a desire I should discourse with the Cardinal which I did and he made much of me and he it was that perverted me to the Romish Religion upon this the Cardinal shewed me a pair of Hangings that were in his House which he said did belong to the Queen Mother and were bought in Paris and he told me he was acquainted with many of the Nobility in England and that he had great assurance the Popish Religion would prevail and he told me there was but one in the way and though that man was a good natured man yet they could not so far prevail upon him but that to accomplish their designs they must take him out of the way but at last I left this place and went to Rome where I lived some years in the English Jesuits Colledge there and when I had lived there five years I came to be Prefect of several Rooms there which are the Scholars Lodgings and places of Study I have heard it there often disputed in their own Colledge both preach'd and privately exhorted that the King of England was an Heretick and that there was no King really reigning and who ever took him out of the way would do a meritorious action Lord High Steward Who was that that said so Mr. Treby Name the persons Mr. Smith Father Anderton Rector of the Colledge who was a very good Scholar Father Mumford and one Father Campion but chiefly one Father Southwell one of the chief of the Jesuits And I doubting of the truth of that Opinion they did shew me several of their Books there and directed me to some passages of Mariana Vasquez and Bellarmine which I have since published to the world wherein they did assert it as a true Doctrine and as Christian Doctrine what the Fathers told me and this was never condemned at Rome Besides my Lords when I was coming from Rome with my Faculty and License signed by Cardinal Barberino who generally conducts or causes to be conducted all Papists to take their leave of the Pope and before we came away for there were five or six of us together for a whole month these Fathers were exhorting us That we were not obliged to obey the King of England and that in all private Confessions we were to instruct all persons that we thought were capable of any design That they should use all their endeavours for promoting the Popish Religion I coming into England made my application to Dr. Perrott who belonged to the Portugal Ambassador and was chief of the Popish Clergy in England I was kept there some months to say Mass in his Chappel and afterwards I was sent into the North where there were abundance of Jesuits and Fryers to one Mr. Jenison's House where knowing the Principles of these people I made it my business to rout these Jesuits away especially out of Mr. Jenison's House who had a Kinsman of his own that was a Jesuit and used to serve him in his House and great complaint was made against me and there was one Mr. Smith otherwise Serjeant in the North who gave me intimation of it ond to whom I wrote to satisfie him and the Clergy of the grounds and reasons why I routed them away which if he be in England now he can justifie Upon this I received a smart Letter as a kind of Reprimand for my doing so and he told me That though they did agree with me in Doctrine yet they would endeavour what they could to bring in the Popish Religion And taxed me sharply for appearing against it I told him how the Jesuits perverted the Duke of York and that by that means they would be the chief men in England though there were none of their Order till Queen Elizabeths time Besides My Lords in Rome I saw Coleman's Letters and read them once a month as I believe wherein he