argument against you That day wherein the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meete together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacrament and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordain to be the Sabbath of Christians but the Apostle did ordaine that Christians should weekly assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purposes before mentioned therefore the Apostle did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Pap. I denie the Maior for that being graunted if the Apostles did appoint moe daies in a wéeke than one for Christians to assemble themselues for the like Christian exercises by the same argument you a Non sequitur Looke the answere may likewise prooue two Sabbaths in one wéek and no doubt those Christians who liued together in the fellowship of the Apostles sold their possessions and had all thinges common b That is not their intent Act. 2.45 to the intent that they might be wholy employed in the seruice of God had moe dayes than one in a wéeke appointed for that purpose Your Minor proposition also which is that the Apostle did ordaine that Christians should assemble thēselues vpon the first day of the wéeke c. is false not warranted by either of the places of scripture by you alleaged In the 20. of the Acts the first day of the wéeke is not prescribed vnto Christians as a day whereon they ought to assemble themselues for the seruice of God but there only mentiō is made that the Disciples were assembled on the first day of the wéeke to break bread and that Paul intending to depart on the morrow continued preaching till midnight Let vs c Admit what you will yet the first of the weeke is the ordinarie appointed day admit that Saint Paul was to depart on the Tuesday and that the Christians were assembled on the Monday to breake bread and to heare Paul preach before his departure might not I in this case make as stronge an argument to prooue Monday to be the Christians Sabbath as yours is for the Sunday In the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle vnto the Corinths the Apostle doth prescribe the first day of the wéeke vnto the Corinths as a day whereon they ought to lay aside for the poore as their deuotion shall serue it is not preaching prayer or administration of Sacraments that is in this place enioyned but it is a laying aside for the poore Why doth the Apostle enioyne this contribution for the poore to be made at that time the answere followeth in the text That there be no gatherings when I come Why would the Apostle haue no gatherings when he came no doubt because hée would not haue such spirituall exercises as he determined to bestow amonge them at his returne vnto them d Then this day was not onely for collections but for spirituall exercises hindered or impeached by such collections if this were the meaning of the Apostle then is it not like that he would appoint the Sabbath for the making of such collections which is wholy e Not wholy so as no time should be spared for collections to be employed in such spirituall exercises as hée meant to vse amonge them at his returne and therefore this place would better serue a wrangler to prooue that the first day of the wéek was not appointed to be the christians Sabbath then it will serue you to the contrarie Pro. Out of this place it may be gathered that the Christians vpon the first day of the weeke did weekely assemble together for there is no time so fit for collections as generall assemblies and a weekely assembly vpon that day doth manifestly proue it to be the Sabbath Pap. You can wring no generall assemblies out of that place for the text saith Let euerie one put apart by himselfe and lay vp which argueth rather f Neither doe we imagine that all saw what euerie man gaue or tooke it from him but he himselfe layd it vp as the rest did in the cōmon purse else Paul must either gather it or tarry the gathering of it when hee came a priuate laying vp at home than a contribution in an assembly as your marginall note in the English Bible interpreteth for how can a man bée sayd to lay vp that which he doth deliuer to another in such a contribution Pro. It appeareth in the first of the Reuelation that in Saint Iohns time the first day of the weeke was called the Lords day which is as much as if hee had called it the Christians Sabbath Pap. You shall find in that Chapter that Saint Iohn was in the spirit on the Lords day whereupon you may conclude that in Saint Iohns time one day of the wéeke was called the Lords day which we doe graunt and more than that that the first day of the wéeke was then called the Lords day which would haue put you to your shifts to haue prooued out of the word yet haue you gained nothing for what consequent is this the first day of the wéeke was of the Apostles called the Lords day therefore the Iewes Sabbath is to be abolished and the first day of the wéeke is to be obserued for the Sabbath of Christians might not the first day of the wéeke be called the Lords day in regard of Christs resurrection and yet the Iewes Sabbath remaine or be abolished as other of their ceremonies were without substituting another Sabbath in place thereof Or will you rather reason thus Saint Iohn could be in the spirit but on the christians Sabbath only Ergo the first day of the wéeke is the Sabbath of christians if this be your argument you doe but clauum clauo pellere for when you shall haue prooued your antecedent by the word then will I graunt the consequent and as easily may you prooue the one as the other but let it be admitted that you can prooue by scripture that the Christians were enioyned by the Apostles to assemble themselues wéekely vpon the Sunday to ioyne together in prayer hearing the word preached yet what word haue you to prooue that g Neither doe we say neither can you proue it is all bodily labour is vnlawfull vpon that day they might well assemble in prayer vpon that day and heare 2. or 3. sermons and yet spare some time to bestowe vpon their labours and the commaundement forbiddeth labor on the seuenth day and not h The first day is now become the seuenth on the first day of the wéeke Thus you may sée while you do nodum in scirpo quaerere by séeking to prooue that by scripture which the Church doth hold by tradition how you are driuen to wrest the scripture and how weake and ridiculous your arguments be If the obseruation of the feast of Easter and other festiuall dayes prayer for the dead or the Sacrifice of the Masse had found the same entertainment
than one his answere hath no colour or shewe of reason for though euerie day in the weeke had beene so appointed yet had they not beene all Sabbaths vnlesse they had weekely continued as the first day did from weeke to weeke till Saint Iohns banishment at what time still wee finde that day kept holy and dedicated to the Lord as appeareth by the name which the holy Ghost giueth it in the Reuelation Cap. 1.13 Againe where he saith That the first Christians sold their possessions to the intent they might wholy bestow themselues vpon the seruice of God It would be knowne by what tradition or inspiration he found that out seeing the scriptures informe vs Act. 2.45 that their intent was to supply the necessitie of their poore brethren I trow the other Iewes that were to attend dayly vpon the morning and euening houres of praier and sacrifice did not vnload themselues of their possessions moreouer this lawe and sale of possessions though it were vsed at Ierusalem yet was it not in force in Galatia and Achaia and other Churches of the Gentiles 1. Cor. 16.2 Gal. 6 6 c. which had of their owne to put aside and lay vp for the poore And touching the Minor your Papist sayth that the Troiane Christians were assembled the first day of the wéeke to breake bread but not appointed so to doe by the prescription of the Apostles belike they came together by hap hazard or by their owne appointment howbeit hee that planted the Church of Troas cannot be so forgetfull as to leaue euery man separately to himselfe and not to appoint when they should assemble themselues for the continuall watring of that which was planted Act. 20.7 now to note what time that was Saint Luke names the first day of the weeke otherwise there is no reason why it should bee mentioned moreouer whereas Paul and his companie came to Troas the second day of the weeke and tarried there iust seuen dayes yet no day of assembly is registred but this one onely day and yet we may not think that Paul and his companie lay idle sixe daies together and forgat the worke of their calling yea but let vs admit saith your Papist that Paul was to depart on the Tuesday and that the Christians were assembled on the Monday c. Yea marry then should we be wise men but the Disciples of Troas met not to heare Paul preach for most of them had heard him preach before sixs dayes together but to breake bread which they would haue done though Paul had not beene amongst them and therefore this supposition is cloudie and riculous Touching the place to the Corinthians your Papist saith that Saint Paul doth not prescribe the first day of the week for prayer preaching and administration of Sacraments but for a laying aside for the poore according to euery mans deuotion and I graunt all this to bee true for those holy exercises were inioyned the churches of Galatia and Achaia when they were first planted and so was the collection for their owne poore for this collection for the Saimes at Ierusalem was extraordinarie but that the Apostle Paul would bee so troublesome as not to content himselfe that this collection should be made as their other collections were vpon their ordinarie meeting day but to appoint another day weeke by weeke to the hinderance of their seuerall callings is vtterly incredible nay see further I pray you how your learned Papist doubleth the power of the argument which he goeth about to weaken for when he asketh why the Apostle inioyneth this collection to be made vpon that day and answereth himselfe out of the text that there be no gatherings when I come and then asketh againe why the Apostle would haue no gatherings when he came and answereth with a no doubt because he would not haue such spirituall exercises as hee determined to bestow among them hindered by such collections what doth he else but confesse that the first day of the weeke was the day that Paul purposed to keepe holy at his comming and therefore would not haue that day bestowed vpon collections when he came but before his comming otherwise if hee had meant to bestow spirituall blessings so plentifully among them vpon any other day then gatheringes made vpon that day could not hinder him Yea but if these collections were hinderances to the spirituall exercises of the Sabbath then it followeth that the first day of the week wherin Paul would haue these collections made was not appointed to be the Christians Sabbath Well wrangled but howsoeuer this extraordinarie collection inioyned by Saint Paul might hinder Saint Paul himselfe that preached at Troas till midnight nay till the dawning of the next day Rom. 15.29 and vsed to come with abundance of the blessing of the Gospell of Christ yet their owne ordinarie ministerie being farre lesse plentifull could not be so easily hindered Apol. 2. and therefore wee read in Iustine Martyr that in his time beside preaching and administring the Sacraments collections were made vpon this verie day in Christian Churches One wrangle more remaineth against the force of this place to the Corinths namely that no generall assembly can be wrung out of it because the text saith Let euerie one put apart by himselfe and lay vp which argueth a priuat laying vp at home for a man cannot be sayd to lay vp that which he deliuereth to another Well wrangled againe but what call you this a gathering and is this kinde of laying vp at euerie mans owne home a sufficient dispatch of all gathering so as there should be no gathering at all when the Apostle should come himselfe amongst them Wherefore little wringing will serue to prooue that this laying vp is not meant of euerie mans owne purse or cupbord at home which might be done any other day as well as the first of the weeke but of some publique Chest or Boxe prouided for euerie mans free beneficence as euerie particular man himselfe found himselfe able and willing Now followeth the place of the Reuelation where Saint Iohn saith that he was in the spirite on the Lords day or Cap. 1.10 Psa 74.16 as the Rhems Testament translates it the Dommicall day Out of which we learne first that albeit all the dayes of the weeke are the Lords yet this day is so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as being a more excellent or eminent day than the rest and so consequently a day consecrated to the seruice of the Lord. Secondly we learne that this day was famously knowne by the name of Lords day or Dominicall day in the Churches of Asia Reuel 1.4 to whome Saint Iohn dedicated his Reuelation for it had been to no purpose for him to tell them that hee was in the spirite on the Lords day if they knew not what day that was and how it was seuered by that name from the rest of the weeke and therefore as it was an
eminent day and chosen from amonge the other dayes of the weeke for the speciall seruice of the Lord so was it celebrated as an eminent day and so still kept in fresh memorie in the Churches of Asia now that this day was the first day of the weeke and no other it will bee easie to shew without shifts not onely because no other day was euer permanently kept holy but also because we may trace the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Dominica applied to this day as it were a Hare in the snow issuing out of this place of the Reuelation into all the Churches of Christendome Yea but saith your Papist Might not the first day of the wéeke be called the Lords day in regard of Christs Resurrection I say no for then it had been called the Rising day or the Resurrection day as the like dayes be namely Ascension Circumcision c. For to call it the Lords day in regard of Christs Resurrection is vtterly insensible When he demaundeth further Whether the Iewes Sabbath might not remaine or be abolished as other Ceremonies were Col. 2.16.16 without substituting another Sabbath in place thereof I answere that the Iewes Sabbath is taken away by Saint Paul so farre forth as it was ceremoniall but the morall parts thereof namely that one day in a weeke should be layd apart for spirituall meditations and exercises Exod. 23.12 and for the recreation of seruants and dum creatures was to be kept still inuiolable without any such substitution as he dreames of and so his other wranglements about bodily labour and resting the seuenth day not the first day of the weeke are cleane dasht Mat. 12.5.11 Mark 2.27 3.4 Luk. 13.14 c. Ioh. 5.8 c. 9.6.7.14 Iren. lib. 4. ca. 19. howbeit that which was the first day of the weeke is now become the seuenth day and bodily labour was neuer altogether vnlawfull no not in time of the lawe as appeareth cleerely in many places of the new Testament Now iudge you or any reasonable man else in the world whether our arguments or his answeres be weake and ridiculous as for his Tradition the more he vrgeth it the more hee confuteth himselfe and confirmeth our exposition of these three places for if the Apostles deliuered the obseruation of the Sabbath by Tradition wee may not thinke they deliuered it to some Churches and not to other some and if they deliuered it to all without exception then was it deliuered to them of Troas to the Galatians Corinthians and the Churches of Asia if to them then can it not bee denied but that these places of scripture which I haue now disputed of doe cleerely containe the practise and continuall obseruance of the Lords day as it was deliuered to these Churches by the Apostles I will not vouchsafe to answere your Papists vnpowdered talke of Iohn Caluin that worthy seruant of God and wire-whipper of popish marchants out of the house of God onely this I will say that if Iohn Caluin were not a greater mote in his eie then Popish traditions are in ours he would haue spared this idle vagarie The next point is eating blood Act. 15 2â—.29 which was forbidden in the first generall Councell the circumstance whereof you haue well set downe howbeit your Papist still calls for Scripture whereby it may be shewed him that after the decree made at Ierusalem by the Apostles it was lawfull for Christians to eate blood which hee would neuer doe if hee were learned and had read the Epistles of Saint Paul with any diligence wherefore you may stoppe his mouth for this point out of these places which I haue here quoted 1. Rom. 14.2 3 6 14 20 c. 1. Cor. 10.29 Coloss 2.16 Timothie 4.4 Tit. 1.15 Now followeth the third poynt which hangs vpon Tradition and not vpon Scripture Leui. 28. 20 Deut. 25.5 namely the forbidding of marriage within degrees of affinitie as if Leuiticus were no scripture yea but may he say Deuteronomy is scripture too as well as Leuiticus yet the brother is there commanded to raise vp seede to his brother which in Leuiticus is made vnlawfull now tell vs why you receiue the one and refuse the other here must you call for the helpe of Tradition or els lie in the dust Alas good Papist you are much deceiued for the law of Leuiticus is morall and naturally ingraffed in the hearts of all nations as appeareth euidently in the conclusion of this law in Leuiticus from the foure and twentieth verse to the end of the eighteenth Chapter for if this Law had beene peculiar for the Iewes there is no reason why the Canaaniticall nations should bee punished so seuerely as there it is described for the non obseruance of the same as for the other law of Deuteronomy it is an exception or dispensation in that particular case for the common weale of the Iewes wherein God had a speciall care of the first borne and his inheritance againe being repugnant to nature and to the explication thereof twice told in Leuiticus Cap. 18.16 cap. 20.21 it might not continue longer vnrepealed Touching the example of the incestuous Corinthian which you propound it will sticke better to your Papists ribbes then he is aware of for how can that fornication be vnheard of among the Gentiles which a man committeth with such a one as hee may lawfully marrie if then this Corinthian might lawfully marry his mother in law verily single copulation with her could not be so abominable as that the very Gentiles could not abide it should be once named amongst them and if single copulation of the mother and sonne in law was so much abhorred then was it vnlawfull they should marrie and so the law of God in Leuiticus is confirmed and so indeed your Papist gently confesseth in these words the law of the Corinths would permit no such mariage as may be gathered out of the text c. The fourth poynt followeth namely that it cannot bee shewed by scripture thas it is a greater offence in a Christian to haue many wiues then it was in Dauid howbeit we read in Scripture that God gaue him his masters wiues into his bosome 2. Sam. 12.8 Rom. 4.15 Nulla lege prohibebatur August contr Faust lib. 22. cap. 47. Matth. 19.4 c. 1. Cor. 7.2 c. Eph. 5.31 if there be no transgression where there is no law as Paul saith then verily Polygamy being neither cleerely forbidden by any law nor reprehended by any Prophet from the beginning of the world to the comming of Christ it must follow that it was eyther no transgression at all in the fathers or a farre lesse transgression then it is in Christians whom Christ Iesus himselfe and the holy Apostle Saint Paul hath so manifestly instructed that nothing can be more euident Now touching the fift and last point of punishing theft with death it is confessed by your Papist that
it was lawfull by the law of God in cases specified in the same lawe that is Cap. 22.2 as I take it if the thiefe breake vp a house for that I finde specified in Exodus Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified giueth sentence of a thiefe that as the Lorde liueth he is the child of death that is that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm Arbangtaijm Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold as no Romanist may deny Exod. 21.1 because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe we see plainely that beside the sentence of death Cap. 6.31 which Dauid iustifieth with an oath the punishment specified in the law is doubled nay the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon where it is sayd that a thiefe being taken shall restore seuen fold or giue all the substance that he hath Rom. 13.4 and touching the christian Magistrate S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 5.20 that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance which God hath put in his hand where feare is made the end of punishment as it is in Timothy where the same Apostle saith them that sinne rebuke openly that the rest may feare but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure that might worke this feare and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state that euill disposed men may feare and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall but still to increase the terrour of them till feare to doe euill be sufficiently planted and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure or indignation against sinne Psal 90.11 for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words thereafter as thou art feared so is thy displeasure wherefore these two displeasure and feare are like the two buckets of a Well whereof the one commeth vp when the other goeth downe and the one is at the highest when the other is at the lowest briefely then to conclude as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time and a long time after to worke feare in that Nation and State but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates as they saw the disposition of the people to require it so the christian Magistrate finding by experience that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse must needs whe this sworde and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate that he may be feared The Dialogue Sestio III. Tradition PAp I will a It is better to omit them then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest omit those other pointes of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture for breuities sake and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause reseruing your answere to the rest vnto your better leasure and premeditation yet by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point b VVe can ackdowledge no such traditions who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles without writing and continued and obserued from hand to hand with no lesse reuerence then they did the written Scriptures Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time that when the Scriptures were alledged against them they would answere that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles and kept in the church by succession of Bishops were obiected they would answere that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues and that they alone had found out the trueth lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c They might better doe it then then you now Catholiks in the first age of the Church did alledge against the hereticks of that time Scripture and Traditions euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time and herein onely consisteth the difference when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time they doe flie to the interpretation when the interpretation of the Bishops that is of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them they answere in effect that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes and that they alone haue found the trueth when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d You may sooner alledge them then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them alledged they answere that the Apostles did leaue none such or if they did that they are not to bee receiued vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture when scripture is brought against you you appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of the fathers to the interpretation of Caluin or to the e This is but the imagination of your brayne imagination of your owne braine as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers you herein Epiphanius O portet autem traditione vti non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt c. Wee ought to vse traditions beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture And a little after it followeth Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere lib. 2. to 2. haeres 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie The same father for the confutation of Aerius vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles haeres 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus hee voucheth a place out of the booke a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke of the Apostles Constitutions haeres 45. Saint Augustine Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles b How can it be knowne whether this beleefe were right or wrong are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition because they are obserued through the vniuersall world de baptis cont Donat lib. 2. fo 2. The same Author saith that the vniuersall Church doth obserue as a tradition of the fathers that when mention is made of the dead at the tim of the sacrifice that they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them de verb Apost serm 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
Then were they good arguments verie same arguments for the maintenance of his Heresie that the Protestants Puritanes of this time do for confutation whereof this ancient Father vseth none other c His confutation is so much the worse argument but the Tradition and continuall practise of the Church I am sure although you doe d VVho told you so exclude out of your Church Epiphanius and all other ancient Fathers yet Aerius shall be receiued and entertained as an ancient and principall pillar thereof but be ye well aduised before you put him into your Kalender for he was also an e That 's not so soone prooued for Austine followed Epiphanius the first and onely author of it Arian hereticke as Saint Augustine recordeth but whatsoeuer he holdeth else it sufficeth if he iumpe with you in any thing against the Catholicke The Answere HEere comes in Epiphanius and the hereticke Aerius once againe to walke a turne or two vpon the stage howbeit it may well be doubted by what authoritie Aerius was dubbed an hereticke I am sure Mich. Medina a stout Papist saith De Sacr. homi orig conti lib. 1. cap. 5. that Ierom Ambrose Austine Sedutius Primasius Chrysostome Theodoret Aecumenius and Theophilact were of his opinion in the equalitie of ministers Againe Aerius was enemy to Eustathius an Arian and therfore if he had any desire to remooue him out of his Bishopricke Haeres 75. and to sit himselfe in his roome as Epiphanius reporteth there is no likelihood that hee would be an Arian himselfe but keepe himselfe cleere to accuse and condemne Eustathius of so capitall an heresie Againe the opinion of fasting vpon Sunday and condemning ordinary and set fasting dayes Lib. 2. cap. 33. is attributed to Eustathius in Socrates storie where wee read also that hee was twise condemned once in the councell of Caesarea Cappadociae by his owne father Eueanius and againe the second time in the Councell of Gangra in Paph agonia wherefore I perswade my selfe that Epiphanius mistooke iust reprehension for emulation and charged Aerius with the faults of Eustathius a double condemned hereticke and as very a Papist as euer Aerius was a Puritane Nuptias fieri prohibuit à cibis abstinendum docuit nonnullos qui nuptias contraxerant à connubio segregauit seruos simulatione pietatis dominis abstraxit benedictionem communionem presbyteri habentis vxorem tanquam scelus declinandum praecepit c. He forbad marriage taught to abstaine from meates some that had bene married he separated he drew seruants from their masters vnder colour of pietie he commanded to shunne that blessing and communion of an Elder that had a wife of an hainous wickednesse Call you not this papistrie call it what you will I am sure it is so and it is heresie too Concil Gangr by your leaue if a nathemasit pronounced by a lawfull Councell be sufficient to make an heresie shew me the like euidence against Aerius and I will confesse him to be an hereticke otherwise I must craue leaue to say of Epiphanius as Austine doth of Philastrius In praesat libri de haeres ad quod Multas assertiones inter haereses numerauit quae haereses non sunt Many assertions he counted for heresies which were not heresies Nay I will be bold to say further Multas assertiones haereses non numerauit quae haereses sunt Many assertions he counted not heresies which are heresies For he hath wittingly concealed the assertions of Eustathius 1. Tim. 4.1.3 which Paul cals doctrines of deuils Now to the Tradition which Epiphanius bringeth for praier for the dead I say in a word it is accepta à patribus i Receiued frō the Fathers not from the Apostles not ab Apostolis and therefore it hath no further credit then man can giue it yet notwithstanding prayer was then made not after the Popish fashion to ease the dead of the paines and torments of purgatorie but to perswade the liuing that they are not vanished into nothing but liue and haue their being with the Lord which knockes out the braines of purgatorie for if men ought to beleeue that the dead for whom prayer is made doe viuere apud dominum Epiph. ibidem haeres 75. then may we not thinke that they doe viuere apud inferos in purgatorie but Epiphanius helps you with better store of reasons you heard the first namely quod credant mortuos esse viuere apud dominum That they beleeue that the dead are aliue with the Lord. The second Quod spes sit orantibus profratribus velut qui in peregrinatione sint That there is hope to them which pray for their brethren as to them which want in trauailing The third Quo id quod perfectius est significetur To the end that which is more perfect may be signified The fourth Vt Dominum Iesum Christum ab hominum ordine separent that they may separate the Lord Iesus from the order and state of bare men The fifth Vt adorationem domino praestent That they may yeeld adoration to the Lord. The sixt and last he sets downe in the words wee haue in hand Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta The Church doth this by tradition receiued from the fathers Howbeit the fathers tradition was no more but memoriam facite keepe a memory Lib. 1. epist 9. et lib. 3. epist 3. As we may see euidently in Cyprian whereunto was added by further curiositie Misericordiam Dei implorate Begge mercy of God And at length Masses and Indulgences and oblations and satisfactions and a whole flood of pickepurse inuentiōs yea but may it be said memoriam facite is little worth without misericordiam implorate yes by your leaue for so the Church thought good to animate and incourage the liuing to stand constant in persecution and not to reuolt for feare from Christian profession and touching the crauing of mercy for sinners departed which the Church vsed to doe most were in Epiphanius time you heard before all the reasons that Epiphanius could yeeld and if you looke for more or better you must search else where for Epiphanius cannot helpe you but hurt you for when he saith preces prosunt etsi totam culpam non abscindant prayers profit though they cut not off the whole fault He marres the fashion of purgatory where sinnes are not forgiuen but punished to be short if you peruse the words of Aerius you shall soone find that he neuer heard of purgatorian doctrine for when he obiecteth that if prayer profite the dead men need not liue godly or doe any good thing in their life time but purchase friends to pray that their incurable sinnes may bee layd to their charge it is most cleere hee knew not that prayer is not auaileable where there is no former merite and that veniall not mortall or incurable sinnes are purged by the suffrages of the liuing The
string and carrying the vniuersall Church vpon his backe as though his words had neuer been nor could be answered and this facing may become a Papist reasonably well but when he brings in Ephanius with a wrong translation to second the matter whose testimonie hath ben often answered and the edge point of it turned long agoe to the very throte and bowels of transubstantiation I may truely say of him as the wise man doth of vnaduised pratlers Prou. 29.20 Cap. 26.12 namely that there is more hope of a foole than of him Epiphanius saith Et accepit haec And hee tooke these speaking plurally of many round cakes or peeces of bread which after hee cals hoc hoc this and this more distinctlyt his our translator cleane omitteth and englisheth hoc est meum hoc hoc this is mine and this and this this is my bodie and so forth Againe hoc est rotundae figurae insensibile quantum ad potentiam this is of a round figure insensible he translateth that is of a round figure and impossible to be discerned of vs. And againe qui non credit esse ipsum verum hee that beleeueth not that it is true Hee translateth thus who so beleeueth not that it is hee whereas ipsum verum agreeth grammatically with sermonem immediately before These forgeries bee verie materiall for when Epiphanius saith hoc meum est hoc hoc as of three round cakes wherof euerie one seuerally and separately is sayd to bee the bodie of Christ verily we must either admit a new trinitie in vnitie whereof euerie one seuerally is the bodie of Christ and yet all three but one bodie or else we cannot hold transubstantiation it will not be so hard a matter to exemplifie the mysterie of the Trinitie which is beyond all example if hoc hoc hoc be a trinitie in vnitie Secondly when Epiphanius saith that the round cake is without sense and powerlesse for so wee are taught to translate it by opposition following in these words Dominum verò nostrum nouimus totum sensum totum sensitiuum c. Wee know that our Lord is all sense and all sensitiue We see plainely that it cannot be sayd of the bodie of Christ simply and absolutely vnlesse we imagine the bodie of Christ to be senselesse and powerlesse Lastly when Epiphanius saith that wee must beleeue the words of Christ to be true as hee spake them we may not thinke that he vnderstood by ipsum verum verie Christ himselfe bodie blood and all as this man translateth in fauor of the popish single sacrilegious communion for that 's not sicut dixit as any man may easily perceiue The Counsell of Trent decreeth thus Sess 13. cap. 3. Si quis negauerit totum integrum Christum omnium gratiarum fontem authorem sub vna panis specie sumi anathema sit If any man shall denie that whole Christ and the author and fountaine of all graces is contained vnder the onely forme of bread let him be accursed But I beseech you tell vs by what wordes this strange consecration is made hoc est corpus meum makes but the bodie that is broken and bloud is not broken but shed Againe hic est sanguis meus makes but the blood that is shed and the bodie is not shed but broken Verily our Sauiour himselfe when he gaue bread gaue his bodie and not blood for that he gaue after supper when he took the cup Luk. 22 20. and if he gaue integrum Christum whole Christ when he gaue bread then he gaue nothing when he gaue the cup and therefore these good fellowes had need take heede they inuolue not the Sonne of God himselfe within their 1. Cor. 12 3. Anathema sit for no man speaking by the spirite of God calleth Iesus execrable In decret pontiff dist 2. cap. Comper No no they that diuide this holy mysterie bee Sacrilegi saith Pope Gelasius and so by good consequent this Anathema sit must returne home and fall vpon their owne bald pates that made it But to leaue these fashoods and to giue you the true meaning of this ancient Father in a summary Compendium wee must beleeue that bread in the Lords supper is the bodie of Christ not simply but in such a figure as taketh not away the truth of the Scripture as we also beleeue man to be after a true vnderstanding Gent. 1.26 27 the Image of God for as man is after a sort the Image of God as the word of God testifieth though hee be not throughly so neither in regard of bodie nor soule nor minde nor baptisme nor vertuous liuing not any other euident and liuely similitude wee see him to haue with God so doe wee beleeue that the bread which is of a round figure and without sense and feeling is after a true manner and meaning the bodie of Christ as the wordes of Christ teach vs though it be not so by substance or apparant proportion and portraiture of bodily members Wherefore though bread by nature be but a prophane common element appointed of God to feede our bodies yet by grace it pleaseth the Lord to make it and to call it his bodie that is a Sacrament of his bodie whereby as by an effectuall instrument the faithfull receiuers are spiritually fed and nourished to eternall life This I take to be Epiphanius meaning whereunto I will adde a few lessons for more perspicuitie and for the ouerthwarting of those two lessons which our Papist heere giueth vs. Frst Epiphanius being learned and industrious knew well inough wherein the Image of God consisted Ephes 4 24. Coloss 3 10. for Paul teacheth it plainely in his Epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians Secondly this Image is so defaced and ouershadowed in the posteritie of Adam that nothing in man or about man seemeth answerable or agreeable vnto it Thirdly notwithstanding this obscuritie wee must beleeue the truth of Gods word that man is created after the Image of God and not ouerthrow that truth by allegoricall subtilties Fourthly wee haue the like example in the wordes of Christ at his last supper namely this bread is my bodie which Epiphanius knew to be spoken per gratiam by grace whereby that common element was aduanced supernaturally and mystically yet truely to haue the name of the bodie of Christ whereof it was a Sacrament Fiftly there is no apparant equalitie or likelyhood or outward sensible similitude or proportion of members why bread should be so called Lastly notwithstanding this difficultie we must beleeue that by bread is meant true bread and by bodie the true bodie of Christ and that the one is sayd of the other figuratiuely indeed because they be dispanita yet truly as our Sauiour spake and not flye to origenicall allegories which ouerthrowe the hystoricall truth of Gods holy word and turne it into fables These lessons I trow be plaine inough yet I doubt our Papist will
doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses 1. Iohn 1.1 saying that which we haue heard which wee haue seene with these our eies which wee haue looked vpon these hands haue handled of that word of life that I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists but that you may haue felloship with vs and that our fellowship may be with the father and with his sonne Iesus Christ Now touching humane reason I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it or without it if with it let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist if without it I doubt he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion much lesse conuert Infidels It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason because Saint Paul saith Rom. 1 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome yet the same Paul saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God is ingraffed in the heart of man whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him and Peter Lumbard Lib. 3 dist 24. his owne Prophet saith Quaedā fide creduntur quae intelliguntur naturali ratione Something 's are beleeued by faith which are vnderstood by naturall reason But to make short worke Paul saith indeed that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God and God forbid we should denie it but yet the same Apostle presently after saith 1. Cor. 2.14 c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men and Protestants naturall men and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure Againe where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead the mystery of the Trinitie the eternitie of the sonne of God the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut and such like Articles of our Christian faith as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament you may see the pure simplicitie of this man who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore to be an Article of faith Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created and Saint Austine saith Lib. 1. dist 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes Trinitatem intelligamus It behooueth vs that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created should vnderstand the Trinitie Againe Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of the resurrection of the dead Tertullian Athenagoras wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome and that the father is Fons origo Deitatis as sol is fons origo lucis The fountaine and originall of the Godhead as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason that the son of God may be begotten yet coeternal with God his father but I shal not need to labor further in this point there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce Phil. Morney wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these such like articles of Christianity therfore if an infidel flie to humane reason he shal haue some stay to leane vpō in matters of faith wheras neither he nor we nor any man els liuing can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures Fathers Councels so to driue him to appeale to reason Paul saith that prophecying serueth not for infidels but for them which beleeue 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine and must be won by signes not by prophecying as for Fathers Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell and besides that infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides Menander and Aratus Tit. 1.12 Plato Hesiode and Homer such like than of our Fathers and Councels yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie yet if you cleaue to his faith not to your owne reason in the reall presence you cannot choose but be an hereticke Dial 2. in con The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie after the priest hath inuocated are charged made other shings and this doth Theodoret euidētly declare in one of his Dialogues where the hereticke saith Symbola dominici corporis sanguinis post inuocationē sacerdotis mutantur et alia fiunt And this he speakes of a substantial change as our Papists do at this day but the Catholicke answereth Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church written almost 1200. yeeres agoe giuing cleerely to vnderstand that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time but hereticall what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence than by the bold face of this Papist whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie Council Florent sess vltima that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper See then what ill lucke this poore man hath that both his vniforme consents faile him the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence the other by Saint Iohns Gospel where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament all the foure Euangelists quoth he how I pray you in thought word or deed marry saith he in direct and plaine words Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him but the fourth saith nothing Matthew Marke say that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration is the fruit of the vine Math. 26.29 Mar. 14.25 cap. 22 20. and Luke saith that the cup is the new Testament in his blood now if you vnderstand by the cup not wine but reall blood it will follow
eternall but to helpe out our Protestant let him take these places out of Austine against purgatorie Hypognost lib. 5. Primum locum fides Catholicocorum diuina authoritate credit regnum esse caelorum secundum Gehennam vbi omnis Apostata vel à fide Christi alienus aeterna supplicia experietur tertium penitus ignoramus imo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inueniemus The first place the Catholicke faith doth by the authoritie of God beleeue to be the kingdome of heauen the second to be hell where euery Apostota and alien from the faith of Christ shall be punished euerlastingly a third place we knew not at all neither shall we find in the holy scriptures that there is any such Againe In Ioh. tract 49. Habent omnes animae cum de seculo exierint diuersas receptiones suas habent gaudium bom mali tormenta sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio bonorum gaudium amplius erit malorum tormenta grauiora quando cum corpore torquebuntur All soules after they goe out of the world haue diuers rewardes the good haue ioy and the bad torments but when the resurrection shall come the ioy of the good shall bee greater and the torments of the bad more grieuous when they shall be tormented with their bodies Againe In Psal 32. Si texit peccata noluit aduertere si noluit aduertere noluit animaduertere si noluit animaduertere noluit punire noluit agnoscere maluit ignoscere If we haue hid our sinnes he would not see them if he would not see them he would not iudge them if he would not iudge he would not punish he would not acknowledge he had rather pardon them Againe Ad Hesick epist 80. In quo quemque inuenerit suus nouissimus dies in hoc eum comprehendet mundi nouissimus dies quoniam qualis in die isto quisque moritur talis in die illo iudicabitur In Psal 25. In what state any mans last day findeth him in the same shall the last day of the world take him because as a man dieth in this so shall he bee in that day adiudged And againe Valeat mihiad perfectionem liberationis tantum praetium sanguinis Domini mei So great a price of my Lords blood is sufficient for my perfect deliuerance Sermon 57. Adde to these if you will out of the Sermons Ad fratres in Heremo Scitole quod cum anima á corpore euellitur statim aut in Paradiso pro meritis bonis collocatur aut certe pro peccatis in inferni Tartara praecipitatur Know this that so soone as the soule is taken out of the bodie by and by it is either placed in Paradice for good deserts or else certainly cast headlong into hell for sinnes Thus haue I shewed where Austine doth denie purgatorie and though our Papist list not to heare of that side yet let me shew him likewise where Austine doubteth of purgatorie Encharid cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it be so done it is a question Ad dulcit quaest 1. lib. de fide oper cap. 16. de ciuit dei lib. 21.26 Ibid. cap. 27. Againe Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitā talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantum arbitror aratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of trueth as I suppose Againe Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideò hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione ventalia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forfitan verum est Whether things committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seeke not to conuince because perhaps it is true And againe Quis sit iste modus quae sint ista peccata quae ita impediunt peruentionem ad regnum Dei vt tamen sanctorum amicorum meritis impetrent indulgentiam difficilimū est inuenire periculosissimum definire ego certè vsque ad hoc tempus cum inde satagerem ad eorum indagationē peruenire non potui What is this manner or what be those sins which so hinder the comming to the kingdome of heauen that yet the merite of holy friends may obteine pardon for them it is very hard to find and very perillous to determine surely though I haue laboured earnestly to search yet can I not find it out vntill this time These places be sufficient to shew Austines wauering in the matter of purgatorie and if it were not for shame I would shew also where he affirmeth it because our Papist hath shewed it so sillily yea but it were a hard matter to perswade any man to credite you herein then let him credite his owne eyes let him looke vpon the places and consider of them and they I trow will be sufficient to persuade so much as you say not so I hope for Austine was a great learned man before his conuersion and after his conuersion the most learned doctor and subtilest disputer that euer flourished in the Church what then altering in iudgement is an argument of increase in learning and our Papist himselfe told vs a while agoe that to consist in errour is brutish if therefore Austine say one thing at one time and afterward vpon better triall and trauell say otherwise at another I doe not see how it can hinder his estimation much lesse proue him to haue neither learning wit nor regard of his reputation as our Papist here without either learning or wit hath concluded What if a man set downe an errour or many errours in his young dayes doubt of them in his middle age and write the cleane contrary when he is of greater yeres and experience shall he therefore be thought to haue neither learning nor wit nor regard of his reputation No friend papist it would not hurt your reputation a whit to deny that in a new booke which you affirme in this and to affirme that which you denie here and to doubt of that whereof here you seeme to be resolute remember your owne conclusion to erre is incident to mans frailtie but to persist in error is brutish Touching the quickenesse and acutenesse of Austine in disputing I easily confesse it for hee was a learned doctor and a most subtile disputer indeed yet a quicke wit doth soonest fall into contradiction and the heat of a quick disputer carieth him sometimes as our papist telleth vs out of Erasmus De Genes ad
merites for so the same popish Doctor confesseth willing vs to note three seuerall persons in our prayers Vnam ipsiùs Dei à quo petimus alteram Christi per cuius meritum petimus tertiam eius qui petit One of God himselfe the second of Christ through whose merite we aske the third his that asketh And so concluding that neither the first nor the second may be attributed to dead Saints and therefore to craue mercie not for Christs sake but for Peter and Pauls sake and to bee deliuered from all euill not by the merites and mediation of Christ but by the merites of the Prophets or the Patriarkes or whosoeuer else dead or aliue is not allowed by his owne Doctors Yea but the last words of that Chapter De Sanctorum beatitudine teach you that we mention Saints in our prayers after this forme Concede nobis Deus intercessione huius sancti tale beneficium per Christum dominū nostrum Grant vs O God by the merite of such a Saint such a benefit through Christ our Lord. I graunt you that this is set downe as a patterne of Catholicke prayer wherein by intercession he vnderstandeth not onely the prayers but also the merites of dead Saints for so wee learne before in the same Chapter in these words Sancte Petre da mihi hoc illud tuis precibus meritis Saint Peter giue me this or that by thy prayers and merits Also per Christum is as much to say as per Christi preces merita by Christs prayers and merits as I shewed before Now shew vs how you can tel that either hic sanctus or haec sancta hath or will pray or pawne their merits for you and if you know it not what makes you so bold as to speake more to God than you know to bee true Againe the liuing know not whether the merits of these or those Saints bee drawne drie for they cannot supererrogate more than they haue Bellar. de purg lib. 2. cap. 2 haue still and giue still they cannot without a new supply and supply they can haue none after this life so likewise the dead know not whether their prayers and merites shall preuaile vnlesse they knew who bee chosen who bee reprobates that cannot bee knowne because God hath sealed it as Paul saith the foundation of God of remaineth sure 2. Tim. 2 19. and hath this seale the Lord knoweth who are his c. Wherefore either the Saints pray and bestow their merits at all aduenture without faith or assurance of Gods acceptance which Peter Lumbard likes not of Lib. 4 distinct 45. or else this popish doctrine is but a dreame of a drie Summer Thirdly it would be knowne when these superfluous workes are made acceptable to God Is it as soone as the breath is out of the Saints mouth or before or else a week or a month or a yeere after or when else if before or presently after his death as they must either begin then or neuer then Christ hath done that which belongeth to him alreadie so as wee need not now conclude our praiers with per Christum dominum nostrum Last of all I would know whether any of these Saints that had so many spare works did themselues in their time pray after Bellarmines popish fourme did they pray that other Saints that were dead before them would procure them this or that benefit which they had need of either they knewe their owne stoare or they knew it not if they knew it they were much to blame to ioyne prayer with the Church after Bellarmines patterne and so to lauish needlesly the treasure of the Church wheras they might haue prayed as neuer any durst pray Lord graunt me this or that for my owne merites sake if they knewe it not and so continued all their life time howe come wee to knowe it when they are dead Iwis it is not the Popes Canonization that can stoppe this gappe for it cannot bee shewed that euer Pope presumed to canonize any one Saint before the time of Charles the great and if there had been any certaine rule to dubbe Saints by in Austines time hee would neuer haue sayd Multorum corpora honorantur in terris quorum animae torquentur in Gehenna Many mens bodies are honoured in earth whose soules are tortured in hell Wherefore it behooues our good Catholickes to looke better about them before they put themselues and their prayers to so dangerous a venter Now in conclusion let mee intreat you to note further how these men open their owne shame there where they would faine hide it for when Bellarmine knewe that the Church of Rome prayed to the Virgine Marie and the Apostles not as secondarie mediators but principals thus hee slubbers vp the matter as though it were but a triflle De Sanct. beat lib. 1. ca. 17 Non agimus de verbis saith he sed de sensu verborum nam quantum adverba licet dicere S. Petre miserere met salua me aperi mihi aditum coeli c. dummodo intelligamus salua me miserere mei orando pro me da mihi hoc illud tuis praecibus meritis Wee deale not about the wordes but about the sense of the wordes if we respect the wordes it is lawfull to say Saint Peter haue mercie vpon me saue me open mee the gate of heauen so that wee vnderstand saue mee and haue mercie vpon me by praying for me and giue me this and that by the prayers and merits As if he should say Be sure ye name Peter or the Virgine Marie or the Saints to whome ye pray else all is marred but God the Father 1. Tim. 2 5. and Christ his sonne the onely mediator between God and man You may vnderstand them as accidentall implements that may adesse abesse sine interitu subiecti You neede not care greatly for naming them for the holy Virgine Gods mother and Peter and Paul and the rest of Gods friends will excuse the matter Thus these men can remember dead Saints and let God and his Christ go as though they counted it but a small matter to forget God Psa 9.17 Rom. 10 9.10 and knewe not that we must confesse the Lord Iesus with our mouthes as well as beleeue in him in our hearts Howbeit they that forget the mediation of Christ in their Masse-booke Durand lib. 4. parte 2. vide Sect. 8. where they pray for the acceptation of his bodie and blood and that God would looke vpon them propitio ac sereno vultu for they cannot pray pro Christo and per Christum both at once will hardly remember it when they are let loose to wander in the wildernesse of Bellarmines Intelligamus The Dialogue Sectio XXV Free-will COncerning Frée-will wée doe say with Saint Iames that euerie good and perfect gift commeth from aboue and with Saint Paul Deus operatur in nobis velle perficere and wée must not
not condemne for such a seede of vices hath growne by custome in all Churches that now wee haue no easie recourse to a full remedie Againe Can 1. Fratrum nostrorum vel imperitiam vel simplicitatem vel etiam presumptionem damnare non possumus nec per omnes ecclesias quae sunt iam pridem male gesta corrigere Wee cannot condemne either the vnskilfulnesse or simplicitie or if ye will presumption of our brethren nor correct all the thinges that haue beene of late badly done in all Churches Againe Quod prauae consuetudinis vitio ab Hispaniensibus Episcopis factum est ita reprehendimus vt propter numerum corrigendorū Innocen prim Epist 24 ad S nod Tolet cap. 1. ea quae quo quo modo facta sunt non in dubium vocemus sed Dei potius iuditio dimittamus That which was done by the Bishops of Spaine through the corruption of euill custome wee so reprooue that because of the number of them that bee to be corrected wee call not in question the thinges that were disorderly done but leaue them to the iudgement of God And againe Mens potentiae auida Leo primus ad Anathol Constant Epist 51 nec abstinere nouit à vetitis nec gaudere concessis dum inordinato prauoque progressu impunitarum transgressionum augentur excessus crebrescunt culpae quae toleratae sunt studio fidei reparandae amore concordiae A minde that is greedie of aduancement knoweth neither how to abstaine from things forbidden nor how to vse well things that are graunted whilest excesses are increased and faults multiplyed thorough the inordinate and wicked proceding of transgressions vnpunished which were tolerated of a desire of repayring the faith and loue of concord Thus may you see that good men and worthy Fathers of Gods Church by bearing with small matters for the common peace and welfare of the Church did so multiply absurdities that in the end they might cast their caps at them sooner than represse them withall you may see what Fathers Poperie is an adherent vnto namely such as the Valentine Councell Pope Innocent and Leo speake of as for the former ages of the Church Bishop Iewell in the defence of the Apologie Challenge hath so vncased the face of Antichrist that hid it selfe vnder the visard of Fathers and Counsels that none of the Popes Adherents euer went about to couer it with any answere Moreouer whereas this fellow relies so much vpon antiquitie as if the ancient Fathers were flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones why doth not hee or some of his idle companions take Master Foxes booke in hand where the substance of all antiquitie is orderly set downe Apoc. 17.5.6 and the whole glorie and power of his Babilon that is drunken with the blood of Saints and Martyrs vtterly defaced I haue heard that there is an answere abroad called The hunting of the Fox but such lustie vnmaried Priests as bee so well fedde and fatted here in England are fitter to haunt I wote what than to hunt such a Fox as hee is to any great purpose it may well be nibled at like a great chase among mice but I perswaded that Papist liues not at this day that either hath will or can afford it a full answere But to returne to this fellow that prates so of Fathers and Counsels as though they were al in his bosome let it be obserued how cunningly hee takes that for graunted which neither hee nor any man else liuing is able to iustifie let vs admit saith he that the ancient Fathers and Doctors with their adherents did eclipse the cleere light of the Gospel which shined in the first 300. hundred yeeres Againe how can wee imagine that the Church of Christ for the space of 1300. yeres lay hidden in so secret a corner that none of the Doctors could heare of it Againe how it can bee that in all that time no generall Counsell should haue intelligence of the being of the Church that professed Christianitie in so different a manner And againe if any of the Doctors or any generall Councell had heard of them they had been put in the Catalogue of heretickes and their opinions condemned all this silly Sophistrie called petitio principij for we neither will nor doe nor euer did graunt that the Fathers eclipsed the light of the Gospell or that the Church in their time lay hidden in secret corners or that no generall Councell had intelligence of it these thinges our Pettyfogging-Papist is faine to beg and to take as granted because he can no more proue any one of them than he can eat a load of logges No no the Fathers were members of Gods Church and so were and are wee as for Poperie what is it else but a certaine scumme and froth that seethes out of the liquor of the ancient Fathers which the Scripture hath taught vs to cast into the fire And here let me set you downe Doctor Whitakers words Answere to Reinolds cap. 6. that such blind Sophisters as haue not seene them in his Booke may see them here and bee ashamed the mysterie of iniquitie saith he which in Papistrie is fully finished began to worke in the Apostles age and so continued still forward in the Fathers dayes vntill it came to his height and perfection in the Kingdome of Popery they slipt a little you are fallen headlong into the pit they were ouerseen through infirmitie you are blinde of malice they scattered some darnell in the Lords field you haue plucked vp by the roots the good corne they suffered losse of this building being not agreeable with the foundation yet are saued you ouerthrow the foundation it selfe and therefore cannot in this opinion be saued Againe the ancient Fathers holding the ground and foundation of Doctrine did oftentimes build thereon stubble and straw partly by some superstitious opinions which themselues conceiued of such inuentions and partly by the sway violence of custome wherby they were caried to a liking of those things which they saw commended and practised by others yet God forbid that because of some errours which they held wee should raze their names out of the Kalender of Gods Saints or thinke otherwise than reuerently of them Againe though they erred yet were they notwithstanding good men and holy Fathers were not the Apostles holy men when they dreamed of an earthly Kingdome in this world were they void of holynesse when they beleeued that the Gospell was to bee preached to the Iewes onely Many holy Fathers were infected with the errour of the Chiliasts who notwithstanding are worthily accounted Saints of God Cyprian and many godly Bishops with him erred about the baptisme ministred by heretickes yet lost they not for all that the opinion and name of holy Fathers c. Againe the case of the Galatians is the same with yours for as they thought to be iustified by the workes of the law so doe you
with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke