framing which neither wee teach neither doe they follow of that doctrine which wée deliuer The diuell and the flesh reason thus God hath chosen men they haue no power of themselues they cannot deserue or merite by their good déedes but are iustified by faith alone in the merits of Christ therefore let them care for no well doing but walke after the carnall desires and lusts of the flesh what should they care they can neither further nor hinder themselues But the holy spirit of God concludeth thus God chose vs when wée were his enemies of his owne good will when wée were not able so much as to thinke a good thought therefore wee are bound to yéeld all praise and honour vnto him He hath of his infinite loue giuen vs his deare and onely be gotten sonne for to redéeme vs and to iustifie vs therefore we ought to shew our selues louing and kinde vnto him againe to serue honour and obey him in all true obedience and holy conuersation What should I stand to recite testimonies of Scripture to proue these conclusions and to ouerthrow yours when as euery poore man which hath any delight in the sacred Bible is able for to sée them They bee worse then bruite beasts which haue not learned this out of the word that God hath chosen his people hath by his frée grace redéemed and iustified them to the end they may be holy zealous of good workes although not to merit withall which they cannot yet to glorifie GOD as Christ saith Let your light so shine before mē Matth. 5 that they may sée your good workes glorifie your father which is in heauen Likewise hée saith Herein is my father glorified Iohn 15. that yée grow and bring forth much fruite We teach with S. Iohn 1. Iohn 3. he that worketh righteousnesse is borne of God he that committeth sinne is of the diuell We teach with Christ Iohn 8. that hée that committeth sin is the seruant of sin We teach with Saint Paul Rom. 8. that those which are in Christ walke not after the flesh but after the spirit We teach with S. Iames Iames 2. that that faith which is without good works is dead therefore cānot iustifie saue a man It is not faith but a dead picture and shew of faith which the diuels haue The true faith cannot bee without good workes So that wee teach a necessitie of good workes not to merit or to iustifie but to shew foorth the fruites of our calling Pap. Ye say that ye doe not teach libertie to the flesh nor giue men leaue to liue as they will nor that your doctrine doth not destroy good deedes but shall wee giue more credite to your words or to the successe and fruites which we see to follow of your doctrine He that will rightlie trie what your doctrine is let him looke what fruites it doth bring forth What better and more sure triall can a man require then this I trow ye will not refuse to bee tried by this rule Then let vs come vnto it your holy doctrine how commeth it to passe that it doth bring forth so many sowre fruites Was there euer more sinne committed VVhat fowle wickednesse is it which doth not flow in your streetes You may compare with the Sodomites for your gluttonies wantonnesse whoredomes pride couetousnesse and such like VVhat good thing can a man see in your Clergie which should giue good example to others and whose pure conuersation should be a paterne for other to follow How many of them are there which are men voide of all learning and grace who hauing spent their time lewdly and consumed their substance when they cannot tell how to liue step into the ministerie or at the least coueting to liue at ease and shunning to worke being scarce sit for the plow much lesse for the pulpit yet are admitted by your heauenly Gospell to be masters in Israel How many wanton fleshly adulterers are there among them How couetous how worldly how ambitious are your learned men Doe not all men see how they preach and take on vntill such time as they be loden with liuings and are got vp as high as they can and then as though they had wonne the vpshot they put vp their arrowes into their quiuer and vnbend their bowes they neede not any further to trouble themselues But what neede I speake when the matter it selfe doth as it were make open proclamation Your common people seeing they haue no better examples are giuen ouer to all kinde of naughtinesse If ye can proue this to be holesome doctrine which doth bring forth and allow such things as these I will be no longer a Catholike Pro. If I should answere ye onely with this that your euill fruits do farre passe ours although it were most easie to be proued yet should I make but a slender answere because that in ouerthrowing you we should also cōdemne our selues For this I must néeds confesse with yee that the doctrine which doth bring forth euill fruites cannot bée good And a good triall I doe confesse of the doctrine to be in the good fruits which it doth bring forth When ye charge vs that all abominable sins do flow in our stréetes we do also with great griefe acknowledge it And this farre I allow your sayings but whē ye ascribe these things to our doctrine as the fruites which it doth bring forth there I doe disallow ye as a blasphemer of God and his most pure trueth For it is not because our doctrine doth allow much lesse bréede such euils that they bee among vs but because our doctrine which is the holy word of God is of the most men despised and not knowne The Lord by sundry of his prophets doth complaine of the Iewes and accuseth them to bée worse then the heathen was therefore the law and doctrine which he had giuen them to bée blamed No they refused to walke in his ordinances and so doe the people at this day The Lord bée blessed there are a number although farre the lesse number which lie as scattered cornes in a great heape of chasse which haue imbraced the holy doctrine of the Lord and doe expresse it in their liues do euery day mourne for the abominations of Hierusalem and earnestly doe desire that the Lorde would purge it If either our doctrine did allowe such abuses or those which doe sincerely imbrace it walke in them then your wordes which yée vtter might haue some weight in them but séeing it is otherwise ye remaine still with the rest of your companions a wicked blasphemer of the holie word of God As for that which ye vtter against our Clergie it maketh nothing at all against vs vnlesse ye could proue that our doctrine doth allow such But ye may sée the contrarie for our Gospell doth allow none but learned Teachers and godly Pastours which expresse the worde in their conuersation those which Saint Paul alloweth
it did represent And now I tell ye that as ye play the beasts that way so now ye play the part of subtil fooles which in seducing others deceiue your selues For this difference which ye make betwéene latria and dulia is not found in the scriptures And besides that the word of God doth forbid to giue dulian to any but God Pa. You haue set down two things which ye will neuer be able to proue the one that ye say there is no such difference between latria and dulia the other that dulia is to be giuen only to God If ye cā proue these two let vs see a peece of your cūning Pro. Our Sauiour Christ is a very competent Iudge in this matter and he vseth the one word for the other For where it is said in Moses Deut. 6. and also 10. Thou shalt feare the Lord thy God and him shalt thou serue he doth expresse it in Matth. 4. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God him onely shalt thou serue I cite it to this end to shew that where Moses hath set downe tagnabod Christ doth translate it by the Euangelist latreuscis which is suffcient to shew that he put no difference betwéene them To proue that dulia is forbidden to images we néede goe no further then to the commandement where he doth forbid to make them and then he saith Thou shalt not bow to them neither shalt thou serue thē for he vseth the verbe gnabad I might alleage sundrie other places as Psalm 97. where he saith They shall be confounded gnobede pesel which serue the grauen image You blind Papists would pluck out mēs eyes by your vaine shifts and foolish distinctions you make a difference where there is none If euer there were abominable and foule idolatrie committed in the world either by Iewes or Pagans or other it is among you ye goe no doubt as farre as euer did any Now a daies the papists at least a number of them doe waxe more craftie they will not with their forefathers alow any thing to the idols themselues but al to the things which they represent wheras in times past the controuersie was whether the image was to be worshipped with the same worship that the first paterne that it did represent was Some of your great clarks did affirme the one way and some the other for one part defendeth that the images of the Trinitie and of the Crosse were to bee worshipped with latria diuine worship the other part doth reply that latria is proper only to God and therefore not to be giuen to the images they must adore thē with some lower worship But shift how yée can agrée or disagrée among your selues the holy word of God standeth still condemning and accursing ye as detestable Idolaters For say what ye can ye ascribe and giue worship vnto them Pa. Haue ye by this proued that dulia is to be giuen only to God Pro. I suppose that it is proued when the Scripture doth make no difference but vseth latria and dulia in one sense For ye all confesse now that diuine worship is to be giuen only to God Ye take dulia for a diuine seruice or adoration doth it not then follow that God is robbed of his right who is our Lord and wee his seruants Now all may sée that are not obstinate that the Romish Church is not the true Church of Christ because ye commit idolatrie I doe therefore conclude that al which will haue saluation must remoue themselues from ye and returne home to the ancient and true Catholike Church Pa. I wonder with what face ye can speake thus ye would haue men depart from our church as you say to the ancient true Catholike church when as ye cannot shew vs that antiquitie for masters it is well knowne how yong your Church is To the ancient Church we would not deny to returne if we were out of the way but to you which are newly sprung vp we may not Pro. It is a strange thing that men are so wilfull we doe beléeue all the doctrine faith which the Prophets and Apostles taught and beléeued we cleaue only to this admit none other and yet your blind eyes cannot sée what antiquitie we call ye vnto Wee are but men of late yeares if the doctrine which wée teach be no elder I would wish ye not to beléeue it But seeing we bring nothing but that which was from the beginning wee may boldly say that ours is the ancient Catholike Church and therefore all those which be not members of it cannot haue saluation As for you looke how farre ye are gone from the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles so farre are ye remoued from the true Catholike Church Your doctrine is contrary to theirs your Pope is nothing like Christ and his Apostles Pa. I see that I cannot remoue you nor you shal not remoue me I must euen leaue ye as I found you I am sorie that ye are so far spent yet I hope one day to see ye of a better minde For a day will come when this geere will be better looked vpon Pro. I may not be remoued from that which I know most certainly to be the trueth vnto that which is most cursed lies And as for you I leaue ye to the Lord no hope I see to winne yée for the day which ye hope for wée sée that the Lorde hath hitherto miraculously disappoynted yée and hath brought to light your traiterous purposes Our hope is that the same Lorde will still protect our gracious Quéene and her honorable counsellors Wonderfull great blessings hath GOD bestowed vpon vs by her and by them For which as many as haue any drop of grace cannot but giue heartie thankes and praise to the Lord and sure I am that vnlesse our sinnes doe prouoke him he is ready to bestow greater Although a great number of ye euen as it were very diuels incarnate doe enterprise and gape for her destruction and the destruction of those ouer whom she doth spread her wings to couer them Al good subiects within this realme both to GOD and their prince are bound in conscience not onely to curse hate and detest from the bottome of their hearts your hellish and cruell practises but also to lift vp their hands and hearts to heauen and to powre out continuall supplications to the Lord for the preseruation of her Maiestie and her Counsell Desiring God to guide them with his spirit to doe nothing but that which is good and pleasing in his sight also to giue them al gifts of wisedome and courage and to multiplie their dayes with true honour in this life and eternall blessednes in the life to come If men did sée how néedfull this prayer is at this time that this realme the poore Church of God in this realme may be in safetie it would cause them in stead of a few ordinarie colde prayers in this behalfe to send forth strong cries into the eares of the Lord and to powre out riuers of teares to moue him to pitie and compassion For when that greasie priest of Italy doth set ye on to spoyle vs of all peace both for body and soule and to take from vs
Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
séeme to be yet God will refuse to acknowledge ye for his seruants because ye refuse his ordinances and deuise toyes of your owne which ye thrust vpon him and as it were force him to accept them If ye did meane well ye would doe better your deuotion is diuellish obstinacie your méekenes is haughtinesse in despising God You haue forgottē what the Lord saith In vaine doe they worship me Esay 29. Matth. 15. teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Pa. VVhere learne you to giue such rayling sentence against the deuotion of holy men and to iudge Ye boast of the Gospell ye haue nothing els in your mouth and yet the Gospell willeth ye not for to iudge This doth declare what spirit ye are led with Pro. If your Romish rowte were holy deuoute men then no doubt wee should be found to giue rayling sentence and if the holy scriptures did not warrant vs so to speake of those which are open enemies to GOD then wée might iustly be blamed or if wee should enter so far as to iudge of the secrets of mens harts not where the word of God doth pronounce the iudgement then were wee to be condemned but séeing the word doth teach that which we vtter wee neither giue rayling sentence neither doe wee iudge otherwise then to pronounce out of Gods trueth what is holy and what is wicked and abominable Pa. Proue those things which you haue said out of the word as that good intents are not pleasing to God that when men are deuout and take paines to serue God it is diuelish and other such like and I wil be your bondman while I liue Pro. Good intents doe please God God doth require that men should be deuoute and take paines to serue him and vnlesse these things bee in them they are not his seruants But yours are no good intents but phantasies of your owne braine for they procéede not of faith because they bee not ordered by Gods word Rom. 14. but against the word and whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Your worship being not framed after the will of God but procéeding from your owne liking is no more but blinde deuotion when ye haue taken all the paines ye can and haue wearied your selues this shall bee your reward Esay 1. Who required these things at your hands Who did set ye a worke and appoynt ye this seruice As concerning such kinde of worship as yours the Apostle doth call it will-worship for when he hath spoken of commandements and doctrines of men he addeth thus Colos 2. Which things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntarie worship and humblenesse of minde and not sparing the bodie which things are of no estimation séeing they pertaine to the filling of the flesh This place of Saint Paul well obserued doth fully and cléerely without any exposition quite ouerthrow all your Popish religion For he sheweth that before GOD all such trash is of no estimation Againe his description doth so fitly paynt out Poperie and that which you bragge of as nothing can bee more apt Marke well euery branch and member of his words and ye will confesse the same He demaundeth of the Colossians how it commeth to passe that if they be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world that they bee burdened with traditions Colos 1. as touch not taste not c. Which things perish in their vse and therefore this conclusion is to bée drawne out that the eternall and spirituall kingdome of GOD doth not consist in such things For how should the kingdome of God consist in those things which perish Pa. Ye would make somewhat of nothing that place of S. Paul is not against vs. If yee haue none other ye cannot ouerthrow our religion Pro. Ye doe interrupt me in the middest of my matter onely to cauill because ye are loth to haue this place of scripture touched seeing it doth so fully open and display your wardes Because ye say it maketh not against ye and would faine passe from it I will leade ye to it by the eares Doth not your religion stand in outward things which perish in their vse Are not your traditions the commandements and doctrines of men Let all the world iudge of that And Saint Paul doth make that a sufficient reason to ouerthrow any thing whatsoeuer in the seruice of God If it bee of man the holy Ghost would haue vs make no further inquisition but to take it for dung and draugh how goodly soeuer it séeme and glister as gold Esay 29. Matth. 15. Doth not the Lord also say In vaine doe they worship me teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Well to goe forward these deuises of yours are marueilously well liked and the people of the world are made very deuoute towards God by them indéede the people of the world doe like well such religion and it carrieth them to a kinde of deuotion to estéeme such matters to haue great wisedome in them Therefore the Apostle doth say that those inuentions of men haue a shew of wisedome and the people vse to say I warrant ye our fathers which deuised these things were wise men But marke well the causes which the Lord doth set downe why these things séeme to haue such wisedome and why they be so well liked of The first cause is that it is a voluntary religion a religion which being framed by the corrupt will and braine of men is very well pleasing to the deuisers and doth also fit other men whose wil and braine is as corrupt as theirs For as that which procéedeth from the will of God is contrary to the wisedome of flesh and therefore misliked and condemned of folly so that which commeth out of mans will is agréeable to man and therefore approued and commended as the onely wisedome Thus may we sée when the Apostle saith such things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntary religion how it commeth to passe that the worship which is set by the policie and inuention of men is better accepted of then that which procéedeth from the will of God Pa. Ye haue enough of that place vnlesse ye would expound it more truly there are manie scriptures which make for your purpose if ye may haue this scope to take them as ye lust Leaue off your vaine heape of words with which ye goe about to bleare mens eyes and to draw and wrest the Scriptures to your owne sense It were much better for ye to meddle lesse Pro. All men may easily see that this place of Scripture doth bite ye to the bone no marueile therefore though ye haue enough of it for lesse would better content ye There are many Scriptures indéede which make for our purpose without any wresting at all Euen as this one place of Saint Paul which we be in hande with néedeth no wresting to make it speake against you when as euery blind man which cannot sée may yet by groping féele the
it to abolish it and yet doth still breake forth as bright and pure as before So soone as Christ was borne persecution arose and the children were cruelly murthered Paul and the rest of the Apostles do not so soone go foorth to preach Matth. 2. but the false prophets are at their héeles Cease therfore ye wicked wretches to blaspheme Christ and his Gospell because such things follow they bée not the fruits of the Gospell nor they doe not spring out of it but they be the enemies thereof which do alwaies pursue it Make a reconciliation betwéene Christ and the diuell if yée will haue the Gospell go quietly Now let a wise man way this reason the word of God which is the word of saluation of life of grace our light our shield the foode of our soules can not be set forth but there follow troubles and errors therfore it is good to kéepe it vnknowne and not to let the people haue any sight thereof All the world may see that ye haue conspired with the diuell are become instruments to fulfill his desire for he couereth by those euils to banish the trueth and to holde men in blindnes and all kinde of errors which they bée by nature full of and so to bring all to hell and you performe his will in crying out against the sacred Scriptures and seeking to burie them Pa. Nay you haue consulted with the diuell like vnnaturall children to seeke the ouerthrow of your mother the holy Church and to dishonour the vicar of Christ Pro. We bring all our consultation out of Gods holy word for the vpholding and maintaining of our holy mother the true Catholike Church and spouse of Christ against the filthie whore of Babylon and against Antichrist the great vicar of hell Pa. I may say the like against your side and so we may play at Tenice vntill we bee both wearie and part as wise as we began Pro. I say nothing against yout but that which the word of GOD doth plainly shew You haue no colour to say the like against vs sauing that your shameles faces haue made ye bolde to speake all kinde of lyes Pa. Great brags ye make of prouing out of the Scriptures Where doe the Scriptures tell ye that the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist You can make the Scriptures serue for your turne in any matter whatsoeuer Pro. Wée brag no more of the Scriptures then that which is manifestlie prooued by them we make them serue none other turne then the Lorde hath appoynted them for The Scriptures doe not in flat speeches say that the Pope or the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist yet neuerthelesse they set a brand vpon his forehead and describe him in such sort that euery man which hath eyes may easily know him and as perfectly know him to be Antichrist as a man may know an egge to be an egge Pa. I haue read the Scriptures and know what they speake concerning Antichrist and yet could neuer finde that brand which you speake of nor such a description as should paint out the Pope to be Antichrist You are marueilous fellowes you can make somewhat of nothing you are so cunning that ye can draw water out of a flint Pro. You haue read the Scriptures and so haue your fellowes euen all the Popish shauelings and ye know they speake of Antichrist whom you beléeue shal come you cannot find that brand or marke or such a description of Antichrist as should belong to the Pope and that causeth ye to pronounce that wee make somewhat of nothing c. because it is not like that so many great Cardinals Bishops Abbots Monkes and Friers should reade and reade againe in the Scriptures and not sée the Pope to be Antichrist if he be so marked that he may easily bee knowne This may seeme strange but I tell yée it is no marueile for yée are all blinde as béetles The Scribes the Pharisies the Sadduces and all the learned among the Iewes did reade Moses the Prophets and studied them deuoutly looked for the Messias which was promised and described there and yet when he came they were so farre off from knowing him that they did kill him and fulfilled the voyces of the Prophets euen so fareth it with you ye reade what maner of one Antichrist should be and what he should doe and yet ye are so blinde that ye fulfill it in helping him to murther the Saints The Iewes could not know Christ because they looked for a trim Christ and he came base and poore You haue also deuised a popish fable of Antichrist which doth so sticke in your heads that ye cannot sée the notes and marks of the very Antichrist indéede Pa. Goe to goe to let vs see your great skill and what your scriptures will be whereby ye will shew this thing I feare me we shall haue but slender conclusions Pro. When ye haue tried them then giue iudgement and so although yee should iudge falsly yet yee shall not bee altogether so rash Will ye confesse that S. Paul 2. Thess 2. and S. Iohn in the Reuelation doe describe and set forth Antichrist Pa. That I will for I suppose no man will denie it but what are ye the better that which S. Paul doth speake and that which Saint Iohn hath written as concerning Antichrist may more fitly be applied to you then to vs. Pro. If it may as fitly be applied to vs as to you nay I will say further if it may be applied to any but to you let vs be counted heretikes Pa. Saint Paul sayth that the day of the Lord should not come except there came first an apostasie or falling away Doth not this touch you Let al men iudge who are fallen away we or you Are we fallen from you or you from vs Haue we made the departing or haue you Our Church hath alwaies stood fast and vnmoueable you haue rent your selues from vs by what reason can any man say that they haue made the apostasie which haue alwaies and do still keepe their standing and not rather those which are gone out from vs to fulfill that which S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. They went out from vs because they were not of vs. Pro. You would shift this thing from your selues and lay it vpon vs but it cleaueth so fast to your hands that it will not off Ye goe about by a subtill cauillation to bléere the eyes of simple men Wee confesse wee haue made the departure from you and not you from vs because you had departed from the trueth and true Church and had led vs out of the way of trueth vnto which wée are now agayne by Gods gracious goodnesse returned You say your Church hath alwaies stoode stedfast and vnmoueable and therefore hath not made the departing It is true if wee respect place and succession of Bishops but what doth that help ye when ye are departed from the faith which thing ye might and haue done without
space of these fiue hundred yeres It ye can shew any fathers in the Church which were godly and denyed the Pope shew them Or will ye speake of a church which ye can shewe no members of such folly there is in a number of yee Pro. Answere you to a question of mine and I wil giue you an answere by and by to yours when saint Iohn sayth Reuelation 13. All the world followed the beast power was giuen him to make warre with the Saints and to ouercome them And againe when all both smal and great rich poore bonde frée were compelled to receiue a marke and none might buy sel but those which had the marke or name of the beast or the number of his name Tell me where was the true Church then whē this was fulfilled whether were al those condemned or not if they returned not by repentance which worshipped the beast or had his marke Saint Iohn sayth they were killed with the sword not a temporall sworde Where then shall we in these times séeke out the godly fathers but such as were persecuted by the beast Of these there be histories which shew in all times that there were some Pa. I may soone answere your question by shewing your great ignorance He sayth all the world worshipped the beast and you will needes haue it to be the Church is there no difference betweene these two You must proue such a generall falling away of the whole church and not of the world God hath promised to be with his Church to the end of the world and therefore that can not fall away Did the beast which S. Iohn speaketh of cause all the Church to worship him If you can shew that then ye proue somewhat Pro. Here is a blind shift brought in to answere the question which I demand He sayth say you al the world you will haue it al the Church I do not say that any part of the Church did fall away if we vnderstand by the Church those which are the elect of God and the true members of Christs body for these can neuer be seduced to follow the beast Christ hath promised to be with these to the end of the world But when by the Church wee vnderstand all those companies which do professe Christ outwardly those may be seduced and fall from the truth being but the outward visible Church and these are here by S. Iohn called the world which thing is manifestly to be proued thus those nations people where the beast should reigne or which follow the beast are called the world now it is manifest that the beast being the same Antichrist which S. Paul setteth forth should reigne in the Church for he must sit in the Temple of God It is therefore also as manifest that the visible Church is called in that place the world The other nations of the world did not follow the beast But if any will be so wilfull peruerse as not to sée plainely by this that the beast shuld beare sway ouer the nations which were the visible church let thē further cōsider that S. Iohn doth plainly affirme that the beast should make war with the saints ouercome them If hee shall make war with the saints and ouercome them where shall he then raigne but in the visible Church the true saints of God shal not raign in the visible church outwardly for he shall outwardly ouercome them O wicked enemies and vpholders of the beast which because he hath for a time gotten the vpper hand in the Church ouer the saints would haue him continue so still for euer Pa. If a man should grant all that which you say that there should be a falling away in the church yet this is not likely that God would suffer the grea test part and almost all to perish For what a fewe haue those been which haue resisted the Pope in respect of those that haue ioyned with him Pro. This is a very foolish obiection especially to those which consider the state of Gods Church at all times in the world what a fewe were the séed of Abraham in respect of al other nations of the world whom God cast off many hundred yeeres what a few were they among the séede of Abraham which continued good in respect of those which did degenerate What a few were there in the Church when Christ came which were faithful it appeareth they were very fewe Pa. There be sundry things spoken by S. Paul concerning that Antichrist which should come and likewise by S. Iohn which cannot agree to the pope as for exāple the one doth say that the Lord shall destroy him with the breath of his mouth Where hath that been fulfilled in the pope the other sayth that Antichrist should continue but a short time he also setteth forth the time to be three daies and a halfe How absurdly then is this applyed to the Bishop of Rome which hath continued euer since the Apostles by succession Who is able to denie this I am afraid Antichrist if he be not yet come among you will come shortly for you are euen his forerunners Pro. Sundry things there are say you spoken by S. Paul and by S. Iohn concerning Antichrist which cannot agrée to the Pope And for example ye name two the one that it is said the Lord shal destroy him with the breath of his mouth the other that he should continue but a little while as namely thrée daies and an half These things agrée right wel to the Pope although this latter might séem to be otherwise for a thousand yeres if we respect it according to men is a long time but with the Lord it is but as yesterday Fiue or six hundred yeres by it selfe is somwhat but cōpared with eternity it is but a little so although we grant that it is almost a thousand yéeres since the Bishop of Rome was exalted so high yet it is but a while But say you the time is limitted thrée dayes an half is it possible that any man should reade the things vttered cōcerning Antichrist what he should doe and the same also set out by sounding of seuen Trumpets Reuela 16. in seuerall ages in which it is apparant he should continue that can bee so ignorant as to take it of common daies not euery day to containe many yeres are the wéekes in Daniel to be taken for seuen naturall dayes to the wéeke Daniel 9. when it is certaine that the seuen wéekes did containe almost fiue hundred yeres Ye are ouer foolish to make this cauil Where as ye say the Bishop of Rome hath continued euer since the time of the Apostles therefore it could not be vnderstood of him it is very true that there hath bin a succession of Bishops there euer since but yet not of such Bishops for sixe hundreth yeres after Christ were past before the Bishop of Rome was takē to be vniuersal Bishop and head of the