there is no Church Then he sheweth further that the offence is iust and God must needs punish that there is such wounding of weake consciences but in this they offend as hee saieth that they knowe not how to keepe anie measure in being offended or omitting that clemencie which the Lord requireth they giue themselues wholie vnto immoderate seueritie And because they think there is no Church where there is not sound puritie and integritie of life through the hatred of wickednes they depart away from the lawfull Church while they thinke they turne a side from the faction of the wicked Then he proceedeth in answering their obiections they alleage that the Church of Christ is holie he willeth them also to vnderstand by the parables in the Gospell that the good and the bad are mixed together They erie out that it is a thing intollerable that the contagious pestilence of vices dooth in such violent raging sort ouerspread all hee setteth before them the vices that were in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia They obiect that Paul dooth will we eate not with anie called a brother which is of an vngodlie life Yea here they crie out that if it be not lawfull to eate common bread with such how should it be lawfull to eate with them the bread of the Lord He answereth that it is a great reproach in deede if dogges and swine bee admitted to haue place among the children of God yea it is also much greater if the sacred bodie of Christ be prostituted vnto them And where the Churches are well ordred they doo not keepe in their bosome the notorious wicked nor admit all without difference to that holie banquet but the pastors are not alwaies diligent sometime they fauour more than they ought or bee more remisse And sometime they cannot but are letted from exercising that seueritie which they would Now when the Church ceaseth to doo her duetie herein it is not for euery priuate man saith he to separate himselfe euery godly man is indeede to keepe himselfe from the fellowship of sinne but it is one thing to eschewe the fellowship of sinne and another for hatred thereof to renounce the Communion of the Church Then hee answereth further that Saint Paul willeth euerie one to examine himselfe when hee commeth to eate of that bread and if it were a wicked thing to communicate with the vnworthie Paul would certainelie haue willed vs to looke about least there should bee some in the multitude by whose vncleannes we might be defiled These things he hath in the fourteenth and fifteenth sections in the sixteenth section hauing shewed that the chiefe ringleaders in such separation are led with pride he willeth the godlie to consider that in a great multitude there are manie which are truelie holie and innocent before the eyes of the Lord which are hid from their sight that of those which seeme diseased or infected there are manie which doo not please or flatter themselues in their vices but being eftsones awakened with an earnest feare of God labour to amend That they must not iudge of a man for one fact when the holiest men doo sometime fall most grieuouslie That the Ministrie of the word and the participation of the Sacraments haue more force to gather a Church than that by the fault of certaine wicked men that whole power may vanish or come to none effect Finallie let them consider that in esteeming a Church the iudgement of God is of more waight and certaintie than the iudgement of man In the eighteenth section hee setteth forth how the holie Prophets of God did not separate themselues in those horrible and lamentable desolations which they describe when most of the people and the Priestes themselues were openlie wicked Thus may wee see that Master Caluine condemning the Brownists so seuerelie by the Scriptures they must either reuoke Brownisme in this point that the bad pollute the good and therefore separation to be made which he termeth sacrilegious treacherie or else condemne him not onelie with the Church of Geneua which he taught but also all other Churches that imbrace his writings and acknowledge him for a noble instrument of God Furthermore let the Brownists shew any one assemblie at this day in the World in which there bee not open sinners admitted to the Lords table and which sinne in great sinnes as either in pride selfe loue ambition couetousnes idlenes hatred enuie contention backbiting lying and in such like They say all are polluted and fallen away from the couenant where any that openlie sinneth is admitted to the holie Communion How can they say then that they doo not condemne all Churches vnder heauen Finallie when in their writings they affirme that prescript forme of prayer imposed is Idolatrie a bondage breaking christian libertie a thing most detestable they doo so farre condemne all Churches in as much as there is no one which hath not prescript forme of Prayer imposed And the Brownist which hath published in Print a defence of the same alleageth the extreame curse against those that adde to Gods word Reuel 22. and saith they adde which make Lawes in the Church in matters of circumstance or things indifferent Which in deede all the Churches doo and therefore hee layeth that extreame curse vpon all the reformed Churches let no man therefore be so simple as to imagine that the Brownists doo condemne but the English Churches when their extreame seueritie in condemning reacheth ouer all Now to the third thing obiected wherein they may seeme to differ from the Donatists namely that the Donatists did holde that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the minister but the Brownists are not of that minde I answere that in this great and ranck poynt of Donatisme I can find no difference at all betwéen them and the Brownists and let the wordes and meaning of both be scanned and it shal appeare manifestly that they hold the selfe same thing neither more nor lesse like euen brethren The Brownists affirme that we haue neither worde of God nor Sacraments in our Church But demaund of them doth the Sacrament or the efficacie thereof depend vpon the worthines of the minister They will aunswere it doth not but yet it can be no Sacrament of Christ vnles hee be a minister of Christ that doth deliuer it If it bee saide vnto them Iudas was a most wicked man and our Sauiour calleth him a diuell yet was he a minister of Christ for the time and the baptisme he administred as effectual as the baptisme of any other They will replie and say that was so because the sinne of Iudas was secret they were not polluted by his vncleannes because they did not know it But he that is an open sinner cannot be a minister of Christ and such as receiue the Sacrament at his hand knowing his wickednes cannot but be partakers of his sinne and polluted by the same This wil they say is
for that I say many such returned to professe the Gospell againe as members of the Church and were receiued For saide the Donatists the Church is holie consisting of such as be called foorth and separated from the vnpure and wicked world and therefore no separation being made but such villanous traitors so vile Idolaters and their childrē being communicated withall all your assemblies through this mixture are none other before GOD but heapes of abominable vncleane persons Your teachers are the sonnes of Apostates and traitors and no Ministers of Christ Now looke vpon the Donatists of England Antichrist hath béen exalted according to the prophesie of S. Paule he hath sate in the Temple of God boasting himselfe as God persecuting and murthering Gods true worshippers He is disclosed by the glorious light of the Gospell his damnable doctrine cursed Idolatrie and vsurped tyrannie are cast foorth of this land by the holie sacred power of our dread Soueraigne Ladie Quéene Elizabeth whom God hath placed settled vpon the Throne of this noble Kingdome The true doctrine of faith is published and penalties are by lawes appoynted for such as shall stubbernlie despise the same Our Donatists crie out that our assemblies as ye may see in their printed bookes and that the people were all by constraint receiued immediatlie from Idolatrie into our Church without preaching of the Gospell by the sound of a Trumpet at the Coronation of the Queene that they bee confused assemblies without any separation of the good from the bad They affirme also that our Ministers haue their discent and ordination and power from Antichrist and so are his marked seruants Hereupon not vnderstanding the manifest Scripture that the Apostasie hauing inuaded the Church it continued still euen then the Temple of God in which Antichrist did sit and that the verie Idolaters were within the Church were sealed with the signe of baptisme professed Christ in some points rightlie their children from ancient discent being within the couenant of God and of right to bee baptized the Ministerie of Christ so farre remaining as that it was the authentick seale which was deliuered by the same in a mad furie like blind hypocrites they condemne the reformation by ciuill power and purging Gods Temple by the authoritie of Princes because the Church of Christ is founded and built by the doctrine of the Gospell Herein they are deceiued that they imagine the Princes take vpon them to compell those to bée a Church which were none before whereas indeed they doo but compell those within their kingdome ouer whome the Lord hath set them which haue receiued the signe of the couenant and professe themselues to bee members of the Church accordinglie to renounce and forsake all false worship and to imbrace the doctrine of saluation What other thing did Iosias and other holie Kings of Iuda when they compelled the multitude of Idolaters which were the seede of Abraham and circumcised to forsake their Idolatrie and to worship the Lord It is most cléere also that where the reformation of the Kings was not perfect as appeareth in the bookes of the Kings and Chronicles yet all the foulest things being abolished and the substance of trueth brought in they were reputed godlie Churches where many were false brethren and open offenders The Brownists blinded with their swelling pride and not séeing the euident matters of the Scriptures without all order of that holie discipline of Christ accuse condemne and forsake our Churches vnder the appearance of feruent zeale and rigorous seueritie against all sinne not inferiour to the Donatists as if they were the onely men that stood for Christ and his kingdome they crie out aloude and proclaime all the Ministers of our Churches to be Antichristian the sonnes of the Pope false Prophets Baals Priests that prophesie in Baal and pleade for Baal persecutors of the iust bearing the marke the power and life of the beast because they say our ordeiners bee such They say wee haue no word of God no Sacraments nor true Church but that all is vtterlie polluted and become abominable our assemblies they call the very Synagogs of Antichrist vtterlie fallen from the couenant of God and all that ioyne with them through the pollution of open sinners which are not cast foorth and therefore they haue separated themselues and crie aloude vnto others to doo the same if they will be saued What rule of discipline haue they obserued in this Haue these things béen brought foorth scanned discussed and iudged in the Synods of the learned Pastors and teachers of the Churches Nay but euen as Augustine saith of the other furor dolus tumultus furie deceipt and tumult do beare the sway Then I conclude that in this poynt of accusing condemning and manner of separating themselues from the Church the Donatists and the Brownists doo agree and are alike Some man will here replie that I build vppon a weake ground or rather vpon the sand in prouing the Brownists and the Donatists to bée all one because they are alike in accusing and condemning the Churches and separating themselues from the same For the matter resteth not simply vpon the actions but whether there were iust cause The question will bee whether the Brownists doo that iustlie which the Donatists did vngodly For the Donatists did accuse the Churches and Ministers falsely condemned them most wickedly and therefore their separation could not bee good because it was from the true Churches of Christ but now if the Brownists obiect open and manifest crimes such as cannot be denied their case doth differ farre May not a man separate himselfe from those assemblies where he seeth open sinners suffered on heapes to remaine in the bosome of the Church and where idolatries blasphemies and abominations are committed where the Ministers and gouernment be Antichristian but he must bée a Donatist Moreouer it is certaine the Donatists did condemne all Churches in the world the Brownists doo condemne onely the assemblies as they generally stand in England which is a very great difference The Donatists hold that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the Minister the Brownists are not of that mind The Donatists did rebaptize the Brownists doo vrge no such thing It may be also they are vnlike in some other things if it be so why should they be termed Donatists Indeed if there be such differences the Brownists haue great wrong to bee called Donatists and to bee condemned with so wicked a sect But what if it fall out otherwise and that it be shewed and prooued manifestlie that they be all one in these things Shall wee not then say they be euen brethren shall they not stand or fall with the Donatists shall they be vngodlie Schismatickes and not these I will procéede from poynt to poynt to compare them together that it may appeare whether there be difference Touching the first it is most true that the Donatists did accuse and condemne
the Churches and the Ministers of the Churches most falselie and I say the Brownists are as false accusers as they and condemne as iniustlie in all crimes which they obiect and shall in no wise bee found vnlike in this poynt Yea will it bee sayd how shall that appeare All men doo knowe that the Brownists may without any false accusing lay greeuous faults to the Church of England I graunt they may and I say likewise the Donatists might lay as great faults to the charge of many Churches then and in some points greater yet be no liers This is to be prooued by comparing the Churches of those times with ours for so shall wee see how farre both haue iustlie accused or might accuse and where they meete together as false accusers The Brownists may stand foorth and accuse the church of England in this manner That there bee heapes of open sinners not separated from among the good but suffered and admitted to the Lords table at least wise in many or in the most assemblies There be prophane ignorant persons that despise the holie religion There bee swearers and cursers There bee those that are puffed vp and swell in pride and vaine glorie There be swarmes of drunkards gluttons and vnchast persons There be couetous worldlings and greedie vsurers extortioners oppressors bribers and defrauders There be liers backbiters and slanderers There bée enuious hateful and contentious persons yea what sinnes almost are wanting Where shall a man goe but he is readie to fall into companies of wicked men This is not alone among the common people but verie many of those that should bee guiders lights and patternes of godlinesse vnto others are nothing lesse Who is able to deny these things heauen and earth will witnesse against him We may lift vp our voyces and say wee haue sinned with our fathers wee haue done wickedlie We may confesse that our iniquities are heaped vp and reach aboue the clowdes and that shame and confusion of face is due vnto vs. Wee may crie saue Lord for the godlie cease the faithfull are diminished from the children of men The complaints that the Prophets doo make euerie where against the Church of Israel may verie well be applied against vs. Where is loue where is fidelitie where is mercie where is trueth But now shall wee thinke that the Donatists had no such things to accuse the Churches of in those daies Could they not say your assemblies are full of couetous men proud persons both men and women Had they not iust cause to complaine that many walked in hatred and discord Doo ye imagine that there were no vngodlie Ministers or will ye suppose that Augustine and other holie men stoode to cléere and iustifie the Churches that way against the Donatists and other Heretickes Nay let their words bee heard what they testifie in this behalfe Cresconius alleaged this saying of the Lord I will giue ye shepheards according to my heart which shal feede yee with knowledge and vnderstanding Ieremy 3. This he cited to prooue that the Pastors ought to bee faithfull Augustine maketh answere thus Scio completum est tales Apostoli fuerunt tales etiam nunc etsi pro ecclesiae latitudine perpauci non tamen desunt That is I knowe it is fulfilled such were the Apostles such also there be now though very fewe in respect of the largenes of the Church yet they are not wanting This is a plain testimonie that in the time of Augustine the faithfull sincere godlie Pastors were verie fewe in comparison Many testimonies may be brought out of diuers ancient writers for this matter but I will bring but some fewe and first out of Cyprian which alone are sufficient being both large and cleere Cyprian was in the time of persecution before the Donatists sprung vp and after one persecution was ouer he wrote an Epistle de lapsis of those that fell and denied Christ In which first he triumphantly reioyceth ouer them which stoode then he mourneth dolefullie for those that fell and after that he sheweth why God sent that persecution Si cladis causa cognoscitur medela vulneris inuenitur Deus probare familiam suam voluit If saith he the cause of the slaughter be knowne the cure of the wound is found also God would prooue his familie Et quia traditam nobis diuinitus disciplinam pax longa corruperat iaceÌ„tem fidem poenè dixerim dormientem censura coelestis erexit That is and because long peace had corrupted the discipline deliuered vs of God the heauenlie censure hath raised vp the faith lying along I may say almost sleeping Then shewing that God did not punish them so much as they deserued he setteth foorth the greeuous open sinnes committed in the Church Studebant augendo patrimonio singuli obliti quid credentes aut sub Apostolis ante fecissent aut postmodum facere deberent insatiabili cupiditatis ardore ampliandis facultatibus incubabant That is They studied euerie one to increase their patrimonie and hauing forgotten either what the beleeuers had done before in the time of the Apostles or what they ought to doo afterward they all did applie themselues to increase their riches with an insatiable burning heate of couetous desire Here is one sinne that ouerspread then he addeth further Non in Sacerdotibus religio deuota non in ministris fides integra non in operibus misericordia non in moribus disciplina There was not deuout religion in the Priests there was not the sound faith in the Ministers there was not mercie in workes there was not discipline in manners And what more Corrupta barba in viris in foeminis forma fucata Adulterati post dei manus oculi capilli mendacio coloraâ—i Ad decipienda corda simplicium callidae fraudes circumueniendis fratribus subdolae voluptates Iungere cum infidelibus vinculum matrimonij prostituere cum gentilibus membra Christi Non iurare tantum temerè sed adhuc etiam peierare Prapositos superbo tumore contemnere venenato ore sibi maledicere Odijs pertinacibus inuicem dissidere The beard was corrupted or disguised in men the beautie was counterfeit or painted in women The eyes corrupted from the forme in which Gods hands had made them the haires were set out with a false colour subtill fraudes to deceiue the hearts of the simple deceiptfull pleasures to circumuent the brethren They coupled themselues in mariage with infidels they prostituted the members of Christ with the heathen they did not onely sweare rashlie but also forsweare They contemned their gouernours with swelling pride and cursed themselues with venymed mouth being at discord among themselues with stiffe hatreds Are not these horrible sinnes which ouerflowed in the church Is there no more Yes he saith Episcopi plurimi quos ornamento esse oportet ceteris exemplo diuina procuratione contempta procuratores rerum secularium fieri derelicta cathedra plebe deserta per alienas prouincias oberrantes
communicate with them are polluted and cast away or reade the bookes and writings of theirs which are spread marke well the sentences and places of Scripture which they alleage and quote and what reasons they drawe out of them and then looke vpon these For I will note the chiefe Testimonies of holy Scripture that the Donatists did alleage to proue that all Churches were polluted by the mixture of open sinners and that a separation was commaunded by God from such assemblies which are these Come out from among them saieth the Lord and touch no vncleane thing and I will receaue yee and I will be your Father and you shall be my Sonnes and my Daughters saith the Lord God Almightie 2. Cor. 6. Haue no fellowship with the vnfruitefull workes of darkenes but rather reprooue them Ephes 5. Bee not partakers of other mens sinnes 1. Tim. 5. A little leauen dooth leauen the whole lumpe and take away the euill from among yee 1. Cor. 5. Ifanie which is called a Brother be a Fornicator an I dolater or couetous c. with such see that yee eate not 1. Cor. 5. What hath the Chaffe to doo with the Corne Ierem. 23. Also depart depart come out from thence and touch no vncleane thing come out from the middest thereof and seperate your selues yee that beare the vessels of the Lord. I say 52. All these and some other did Parmenian the Donatist Bishop alleage in his Epistle Wee may not thinke that these Scriptures were alleaged onely by some one Donatist for Augustine in his booke De vnico Baptismo against Petilian Chapter 14. saith Magis enim solent in ore habere quando peccatis aliorum alios criminantur ad excusandum nefas separationis suae videbas furem concurrebas cum eo c. For they are wont rather to haue in their mouth when they accuse some to be guiltie or polluted by the sinnes of other to excuse their wicked seperation Thou sawest a theefe and diddest run with him Psal 50. And be not partakers of other mens sinnes depart and come out from thence touch no vncleane thing he that shal touch that which is vncleane shal be poluted and a little leauen dooth leauen the whole lump and other such like Now what the estate of the question was and how they held men polluted if they did not seperate themselues the disputation betweene the Catholique Bishops and the Donatists which were assembled at the cōmaundement of the Emperour dooth shew Where the names of the Donatist Bishops that had subscribed their consent to that conference were two hundreth seauentie and nine but some of them were not there Thus Augustine reporteth their words in the conference of the third day Chapter 4. Quia in eo quod dicebant diuinis testimonijs velut astruebant non esse malos in ecclesia tolerandos sed ab eis recedendum propter contagium peccatorum Itase dicere demonstrabant vt tamen ignoratis peccatis alienis neminem maculari posse faterentur Because euen in that which they saide and which they did as it were confirme by the Scriptures that the euil are not to be tolerate in the Church but wee must depart from them for feare of the contagion of their sins they shewed that they spake it to be vnderstoode thus that neuerthelesse they confessed that no man could be spotted with other mens sinnes which are secret In this conference the Donatist Bishops stoode vpon this that the Lord saith of the Church Esay 52. There shall no vncircumcised or vncleane passe through thee anie more And vpō that which is writtē by the Prophet Hag chap. 2. Ask the Preests concerning the Lawe If a man carrie holie flesh in the lappe of his garment and the lappe of his garment shall touch the bread c. Shall he bee sanctified The Priests answered no. Then if a man that is vncleane touch any of those things shall it not bee vncleane The Priestes answer it shall bee vncleane So is this people and so is this Nation before me saith the Lord and so is the whole work of their hands yea that which they haue offered there hath been vncleane Stay now and see whether the very same Scriptures bee not in the mouthes of the common sort of the Brownists and whether the writings of the chiefe Brownists bee not euerie where spatred with the quotations of them And to proue the same thing which the Donatists held and maintained by them namelie that such as communicate with open sinners are polluted by their sinnes and therefore they separate themselues But that this agreement betweene them may yet more fully appeare I will proceed further and shewe how these matters were discussed For otherwise it maye bee some man will imagine that the auncient Fathers might defend the Churches against those allegations of the Donatists after such a sort as wee canne not truly defende ours at this day Whereas therefore it was by the Donatists vrged depart depart come out from among them seperate your selues touch no vncleane thing c. the answere was by the Pastors of the Churches that this seperation was not to bee made in bodie when the Church is pestered with open sinners but in heart and not consenting in minde vnto the sins openly committed by those with whom they did communicate in the Church These be the wordes of Augustine against Parmenian in the second booke Chapt. 18. Qua verba isti carnaliter sentientes per tot diuisiones seipsos minutatim in ipsa vna Aphrica conciderunt Non enim intelligunt neminem coniungi cum infidelibus nisi qui facit peccata Paganorum vel talia facientibus fauet Nec quenquam fieri participem iniquitatis nisi qui iniqua vel agit vel approbat Quis autem communicat tenebris nisi qui per tenebras consentionis suae dimisso Christo sequitur Belial quis ponit cum infidelibus partem suam nisi qui eius infidelitatis fit particeps Ita enim templum dei esse desinit nec se aliter simulachris adiungit Qui autem sunt templum dei viui in medio nationis tortuosae ac peruersae apparent sicut luminaria in mundo verbum vitae habentes nihil eos quod pro vnitate tolerant inficit nec angustiantur quia in illis habitat deambulat deus exeunt de medio malorum atque separātur interim corde ne forté cum id facere per seditionem Schismatis volūt prius a bonis spiritualiter quam a malis corporaliter separentur That is to say which words they vndetstanding carnally for he had before repeated their allegation Come out from among them and touch no vncleane thing they haue cut themselues by morsels into so many diuisiōs in that one Aphrica for they doe not vnderstand that no man is ioyned with Infidels but he that doth commit the sinnes of the Pagans or else doth fauour those that doe such things neither that any
seueritate That is Neither haue I therefore sayd this that the ecclesiasticall discipline should be neglected and that euery one should be suffered to do what he will without rebuke and without a certaine medicinable reuenge terrible lenittie and seueritie of loue In the 37. Chap. of the same booke hauing spoken of the corne and the chaffe mixed together the wheate and the tares growing together the good fishes and the had in the same nette together vnto the end of the world he then inferreth Nec propterea tamen ecclesiastica disciplina negligitur à constantibus diligentibus prudentibus dispensatoribus Christi vbi crimina ita manifest antur vt nulla possint probabili ratione defendi That is Notwithstanding the ecclesiasticall discipline is not therefore neglected of the constant diligent and wise dispensers of Christ where the crimes are manifested in such sort that they can in no probable maner be defended In the fourth Chapter of his booke after the conference with the Donatists taking aduantage of a saying which they vttered which was this Nec causae causa praeiudicat nec personae persona That is neither doth cause preiudicate cause neither one person another Hee saith that the cause and person of the tares doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the wheat growing together in the same field vntill the haruest come The cause and person of the chaffe doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the corne beeing together in the same floare vntill the last winnowing The cause and person of the goates doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the sheepe kept together in the same pastures vntill the great shepheard shall separate them to the right hand and to the left in the last day The cause and person of the euill fishes doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the good fishes though they bee held in the same nette to be separated in the last shoare Then he addeth Quibus parabolis figuris ecclesia praenunciata est vsque in finem seculi bonos malos simul habitura ita vt nec mali bonis obesse possint cum velignorantur vel pro pace tranquillitate ecclesiae tolerantur si eos prodi aut aâ—cusari non oportuerit aut alijs bonis non potuerit demonstrari ita sanè vt nec emendationis vigilantia quiescat corripiendo degradando excommunicando caeterisque coertionibus licitis atque concessis quae salua vnitatis pace in ecclesia quotidie fiunt secundum praeceptum Apostolicum charitate seruata qui dixit si quis autem non obaudit verbo nostro per epistolam hunc notate nolite commisceri cum eo vt erubescat non vt inimicum existimetis sed corripite vt fratrem Sic enim disciplina seruat patientiam patientia temperat disciplinam vtrumque refertur ad charitatem ne fortè aut indisciplinata patientia foueat iniquitatem aut impatiens disciplina dissipet vnitatem That is to say By which parables and figures the Church is foreshewed that it shall haue the good and the bad together vnto the ende of the world so as the euil cannot hurt the good when either they are not knowne or else are tolerated for the peace and tranquilitie of the Church if it be not behoueful that they shal be manifested or accused or that it cannot be shewed to others that be good euen so verelie as yet the watchfulnesse of redressing may in no wise rest in rebuking degrading excommunicating and in other lawfull and allowable restraints which the peace of vnitie receiuing no dammage are daylie practised in the Church without any hindrance or breach of loue according to the Apostles precept which sayd If any obey not our word note him by an Epistle and haue no fellowship with him that he may bee ashamed and esteeme him not as an enemie but admonish him as a brother For in so doing the discipline doth keepe patience and patience doth temper the discipline and both are referred vnto charitie least either vndisciplined patience should foster iniquitie or impatient discipline might dissolue and scatter the vnitie Thus farre Augustine by which words he sheweth that albeit the good and the bad shall alwaies euen to the end of the world bee mixed together on heapes in the Church so that oftentimes open sinners cannot bee all cast foorth without daunger of schisme and therefore are to be tollerated for the peace of the Church yet the discipline is not to sleepe but sinners are to bee rebuked such as beare publike office if they deserue are to be degraded and depriued The notorious wicked are to bee excommunicated where the multitude is not guiltie with them but that they may be forsaken of all and so made ashamed but loue according to the rule of Saint Paule is to sit at the stearne and to order the whole matter least the seueritie of chasticing discipline if it were not mixed and tempered or as I may say delaied with patience might breed tumults and schismes and separations or least on the other side if tollerating patience were not sharpened by the seueritie of discipline it might nourish all manner of wickednes We see then what was the practise of the auncient Churches and that touching the Ecclesiasticall censures the mixture of patience and seueritie whollie referred vnto loue doo make a soueraigne plaister and medicine to salue and cure the sores of the Church Where these be not tempered together there is great decay for as the rigorous seueritie of Donatisme without any aswaging the heate of seueritie with the mixture of loue and patient tolleration doth rend vp and furiouslie teare all in peeces so doth ouermuch or a loose sufferance for it deserueth not the name of patience not regarding Gods honor nor mens saluation suffer the Lords field to ouergrowe with tares and fill the Lords Courts with Goates and Swine whereby holie things are greatlie prophaned the weake are made to stumble and many are cast downe Touching this first point then in controuersie betwéene the Donatists and the Churches I will conclude it with that which Augustine writeth in his treatise De vnitate Ecclesiae Chapt. 16. where hauing shewed in the former parts of the same booke that the controuersie was not about the head which is Christ but about the bodie which is his Church For touching the head they agreed and touching the bookes of holie Scripture and their authoritie there was no dissent at all betweene the Donatists and them Then further he commeth to this poynt that as Christ the head is to bee sought for and knowne onlie in the Canonicall Scriptures so the Church which is his bodie is likewise to be sought for found out and iudged onely by the same bookes of Scripture Then he calleth for triall not by those darke places of the Byble which are spoken in figures and may be expounded diuers waies in probable sense but from the manifest cléere
are the grosser if we may reason from that which they holde for if this were true which the Brownists affirme most stiffelie to bee true as the Donatists did before them that where an open wicked man dooth administer the Sacraments they be no Sacraments at all And if this also were as true which they both haue taken vpon them to iustifie the Donatists of olde saying they had no true Sacraments in the Churches and the Brownists that we haue none now It must needes be graunted that the Donatists did the better of both in baptising those which were not before baptized for he that is not baptized ought to be baptized And as no vncircumcised might eate of the Passeouer but was to be cut off from the people of GOD so no vnbaptized is to eate at the table of the Lord. How grosse are the Brownists which take it as a thing vndoubted that we haue no Sacraments and must needes thereupon be assured that they themselues were neuer baptized and so can be but as an heape of vncircumcised and yet seeke not to haue the Sacrament I would haue them answer this question whether a man that knoweth he was neuer baptized can be saued if he seeke not to bee baptized when hee may come by it Let no man imagine that I speake this as though the Brownists should doo well in rebaptizing for their former ground is false wicked and hereticall when they say it is no Sacrament that hath been administred by open offenders and that we haue no Sacraments But if that were true which they hold they should doo much better I will not say to rebaptize but to baptize such as were not before baptized Now where it is generallie obiected that the Donatists perhaps held diuers things which the Brownists doo not I answere that the Donatists indeede held somewhat which the Brownists doo not and the Brownists hold something which they did not For some of the Donatists did cast themselues downe from high places and into the fire accounting them holie Martyres that so died and others defended their doing For thus saith Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop in his Epistle An ista persecutio est quae tot milliq innocentum martyrum arctauit ad mortem Christiani enim secundum euangelium spiritu prompti sed carne infirmi à sacrilega contaminatione caminorum reperto compendio suas animas rapuerunt imitati presbyteri Raziae in Machabaeorum libris exemplum nec frustra timentes quisquis enim eorum manus inciderit non euasit sed quantum velint faciant quod certum est dei esse non possunt qui faciunt contra Deum Whether is that a persecution saith he which hath pent vp in a straight so many thousands of innocent martyres euen vnto death For Christians according to the Gospell being readie in spirit but weake in the flesh finding out a compendious way of their chimneyes haue deliuered their soules from the sacrilegious pollution imitating the example of olde Razia in the bookes of the Machabees not fearing without cause for whosoeuer falleth into their hands doth not escape but let them doo as much as they will that which is certaine they cannot be of God which doo against God booke 2. against Gaudent Chapt. 20. Augustine sheweth that Gaudentius meaning was not that they burnt themselues in their chimneys for feare of persecution vnto death for the ciuill Magistrate did not so persecute them hauing made a lawe against them for banishment but not for death as Augustine sheweth book 2. against Gaudentius chap. 11. Mitiora in vos constituit Imperator propter mansuetudinem Christianam exilium vobis voluit inferre non mortem The Emperour hath decreed more gentle thinges against yee through Christian mildnes he would lay banishment vppon ye and not death But his meaning is that such as fell into their hands were drawne to ioyne with them in worship which he calleth the sacriligious defilement And therfore doth abuse that place of the Gospell to colour such horrible murthering of themselues the spirit is readie but the flesh is weake for fearing least through weakenes they should yéeld to ioyne with the Churches they rather chose to kill themselues This the Brownists doo not but they condemne read prayer or praying after any prescript forme of words which the Donatists did not as may bee gathered by these words of Petilian Si pâ—ecem domino facitis aut funditis orationem nihil vobis penitus prodest Vestras enim debiles preces cruenta vestra conscientia vacuat quia dominus deus puram magis conscientiam quam preces exaudit domino Christe dicente non omnis qui dicit mihi domine domine intrabit in regnum coelorum sed is qui facit voluntatem patris mei qui est in coelis Voluntas dei vtique bona est nam ideo in sacra oratione sic petimus fiat voluntas tua sicut in coelo in terra If ye make prayer to the Lord saith the Donatist or powre foorth supplication it doth profite ye nothing at al for your bloudie conscience doth make your weake prayers of none effect because the Lord God doth rather heare a pure conscience than prayers the Lord Iesus saying that not euerie one that saith vnto me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heauen but he that doth the will of my father which is in heauen The will of God is good for therefore in the holie prayer we pray thus thy will be done in earth as it is in heauen Thus we see that the Donatist denying that any praied but they sheweth with all that praying they vsed the Lords prayer But what doo I stand to seeke differences betwéen them which can hardlie be found whereas indeede whole bookes doo set foorth at large their agreement I will therefore proceede further to declare in particulars touching the power of Christian Princes in reforming the Church in establishing religion and in punishing heretickes schismatickes and disturbers and in compelling their subiects to the obedience of the trueth or to imbrace the true worship how iniuriouslie Browne hath dealt in his booke and the Brownists that haue written since I haue layd open in my former booke let their sayings be throughlie perused and now shall ye seee a little whether they be not the verie naturall children of the Donatists in this poynt also Thus writeth Gaudentius a Donatist Bishop Per opificem rerum omnium dominum Christum omnipotens deus frabricatum hominem vt deo similem libero demisit arbitrio Scriptum est enim fecit deus hominem dimisit eum in manu arbitrij sui Quid mihi nunc humano imperio eripitur quod largitus est deus Aduerte vir summe quanta in deum sacrilegia perpetrentur vt quod ille tribuit auferat humana praesumptio pro deo se inaniter iactet magna iniuria dei si ab hominibus defendatur Quid de deo aestimat qui eum violentia
the like because the aduerb thus doth signifie the like and not the same But hée rendreth a reason which is that we haue but the summe of their prophesies recorded vnto vs by the holie Ghost and not all the words Because we haue not all the words therefore haue we not the same in those that are set downe Did the holie Ghost vse this word Coh to giue vs to vnderstand that there is written but an abridgement or summe of matters and not the same words that they were vttered in but some such like Againe did the holie Ghost recorde them are they not all his words which are written in the summe of the prophesies set downe Shall we beléeue this man I doo beléeue him in this that he saith the holie Ghost did record them for therein he speaketh the trueth But when he saith that thus saith the Lord is not these same words saith the Lord but the like because thus is an aduerb of likenes it is a vile saying Is not the holie Ghost the Lord If hée had spoken those things before in moe words and now recordeth them in fewer saying thus saith the Lord doth not he speake these fewer words which are written as well as those moe wordes which were vttered Are they not then thus saith the Lord euen the verie same words which the Lord speaketh and not like If ye make many such expositions of words ye may leade me whether ye will There is then another reason rendred to prooue that the Priests were not tied vnto those wordes in blessing the people namely that in prayer they are blessed in the Psalmes and in the Chronicles with many other words And Eli blessed Hanna in other words It is not the question whether at any time the people might bee blessed in other words in fewer or in moe but whether the Priests had not that forme prescribed to vtter in blessing the whole assemblie and whether it were Idolatrie to vse those prescript phrases of wordes As likewise it is not maintained that when our Sauiour saith say thus that wee may not pray in other words or expresse our petitions more particularlie but that we may vse those words and sentences as most excellent petitions Against this Master Greenwood bringeth nothing in his words that followe For Master Caluine neuer held it vnlawful to pray in that forme of words though he teach truelie that men are not so tied vnto it that they may vse none other And therefore it standeth firme and sure that the forme of words in the Lords Prayer is to bee lawfullie vsed praying In the next part Master Greenwood is in a great heate and maketh an outcrie to call men to the beholding of an iniurie which I as he saith as a godles man haue done him Here saith he I must call all men that reade this fruitles discourse to be witnesse c. Indeede ye may well call it a fruitles discourse which ye call men that reade to beare witnesse with ye and let the reader iudge by your exposition of Coh whether it be not worse than fruitlesse which ye spread among the ignorant sort which are readie to sucke in such filthie dregges The abuse of my tongue to the defacing of Gods trueth is that I sayd he calleth all men Idolaters And to make the matter cléere that he spake not the words but I my selfe he maketh a briefe repetition how we fell into that matter But before we procéede any further I pray ye tell me what is the reason that I hauing set downe your whole discourse touching this poynt so that you cannot denie but that I haue also set it downe truely you forsake that and set downe by péece meale but some of your words and reason from them If I had ment in a godles manner wilfully to peruert your words would I haue deliuered them whole and together in print It seemeth ye haue some hope that some men will reade your booke which will not compare it with mine or which being carried with blind heate cannot Now I craue no more of the reader but to marke the whole speach which you deliuered and mine answere to it and to iudge indifferently If Master Greenwoods words bee not such as must needes include that which I haue collected let me beare the blame for that matter which is one of the least He saith I haue an euasion to auoide this foyle because I sayd I tooke it we reasoned about such grosse Idolatrie as a Church is to bee condemned and forsaken for which is defiled therewith He saith he neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse And I say then he must go from his owne words which affirme that read prayer offered vp to GOD as a sacrifice is Idolatrie that to reade the prayer while one praieth is a chaunging the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a bondage and breaking of Christian libertie a thing most detestable a deuice of Antichrist Let all men iudge by these speaches what manner of Idolatrie was in question betweene vs. Master Greenwood as if he had wonne the field will needs put me to my raunsome and asketh what mends I will make him for this slandering I answer that as your victorie is but in a dreame so my raunsome must be therafter If I could sée I had done ye wrong I would be sorie Ye will haue no man free from such foule Idolatrie but yet no Idolaters No Church is free ye confesse from all spot vpon earth Hereupon ye growe againe into a newe heate and charge me out of one mouth to giue contrarie sentence because I call ye Donatists Why man are ye ignorant of this that the Donatists did confesse all men to bee sinners and yet the arguments by which they would maintaine their schisme could not bee strong vnlesse they would maintaine a perfection and some of their reasons though they ment not so reached so farre And so is it with you Brownists If one should followe ye in all the grosse absurdities which will followe from your exposition of Coh thus saith the Lord could you haue any way but to protest ye did meane no such thing Wee may not looke what men protest they hold but what doth followe of their reasons and then ye shall see that such as be in schisme and heresie are with the blasts of their swelling pride tossed and hurled vpon contrarie Rockes Now whereas I sayd the confession of the Brownists that there is no Church in earth without spottes of Idolatrie doth ouerthrowe the reasons which they bring to condemne the Church of England Because they cannot argue thus this is a fault it is Idolatrie therefore this or that assemblie which is spotted is no true Church But they must prooue the Idolatrie to bee such as destroyeth the faith c. Master Greenwood would beare men in hand that I reason as simplie as to say if there bée no true Church in earth without spots then the Church of
Rome is the true Church for that hath many spots I answere that we doo not take it that the spots doo make it a true Church but because there bee onely spottes and not fundamentall errors The foolish cauill here is that I assume that which I should prooue Doo I not prooue it by answering the vile and shameles slaunders of yours when ye affirme euerie spot in our Churches to be blasphemies and heresies and abominations and Egyptian sores You must prooue these your slaunders true and I will cease Now we come to the arguments which were set down at the first No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publike assemblies all read prayer is Apocripha Here you say I haue nothing to vtter and yet oppose against both proposicions to royle the doctrine with my feete least others should drink of it I sayd your proposition is false because the exposition of the scriptures by the preacher and the prayers of the preacher are not canonicall which your proposition doth exclude Your replie is that the Sermons and prayers of of the Preacher be the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces which ye mention in your proposition and so neither Canonicall nor Apocripha and so not excluded Touching the Paraphrase vpon the Psalmes in meeter I holde not Canonicall in some respects If you banish all writings that be not Canonicall then ye banish then Your answere is that it I will affirme them to be Apocrypha as ye say I cannot but doe you will prooue they are not to be brought into the publike assemblies Your proofes doe follow First no mans writings are giuen by the testimonie of Gods spirit whome alone we are to heare No mans writings are without errors and imperfections The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets If we might bring in mens writings then al mens writings which are agreeable to Gods word No mans writings carie that maiestie that the pen of the holy ghost No mans writings are authentike confirmed by signes and wonders The scripture is all sufficient al men must walk by that one rule To think there were not rules enough prescribed by the Lorde for his house is blasphemous and papisticall Then ye say the gifts to prophesie are not Apocryphall and so ye conclude your proposition that onely Gods word and the liuely graces of his holy spirite are to be offered vp vnto him in the publike assemblies Then touching your assumption I sayd I see not how our speech to God should be called Apocrypha Ye replie y t it answereth not you which do not holde an other mans writing to be our speech vnto God Finally because I said that Apocrypha is that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs yee say I haue ouerthrowen my selfe and cast out all read prayer in as much as I deny them to be Canonicall And so affirming that I haue not in both writings made one direct answer to this most firme proposition Onely the Canonicall scriptures and liuely voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the publike assemblies for doctrine and prayers But mens writings are neither Canonicall nor the liuely voice of Gods owne graces Now master Greenwood hauing thus played the man in erecting as he supposeth so mighty a piller that cannot be shaken could content himself to go no further I might end here saith hee with this vaine man considering the whole matter is proued against him And all that solloweth but repetitions of the same cauills but that I must cleare my selfe of his vnconcionable slaunders Hee â—â—â—â—mphing thus fully what shall I doe now I aunswere first that hee is much deceiued and would deceiue others as it is written The deceiuers shall wax worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued For like as one that among many Apples doth hide and sell one Crab so he among many true principles doth bring in one false conclusion which deceiueth his Schollers For if he did reason thus wee must heare onely the voice of Gods spirite therefore all things in the Church are to be tried by the voice of the spirit No mans writings are without errors and imperfections therefore meÌ„ cannot ground vpon them any further than they be consonant to the Canonicall scriptures The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets therfore our faith is to rest no further vpon the sayings and writings of men than they be prooued by the doctrine of the Apostles Prophets he should conclude a truth which is vnanswerable But now where master Greenwoods conclusioÌ„ is after this sorte therefore nothing but the Canonicall scriptures and the liuely voice of Gods graces is to bee brought into the publike assemblies he concludeth falsely as shall appeare For if nothing but the perfect rule it selfe is to bee brought into the Church If nothing done by man which hath errors in it is to haue place in the assemblies If nothing but eyther such or that which is the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces is to be vttered in the congregation then must bee tast foorth not onely al written prayers but also y e whole bible vnles it be in y e Hebrew Greeke with the Sermons and praiers of the Pastors For there is no translation of the Bible without errors and the bookes are thus farre mans writing respecting onely the translation And furthermore we decide not controuersies by any translation of the Bible but by the authentike copies of the Hebrew and Greek in one of which the olde testament is set downe by the Prophets in the other the new testameÌ„t by the Apostles So that your conclusion doth not shut out onely the Psalmes in méeter but the whole scriptures vnles you will be so bolde as to say that translations be without errors and so the perfect rule And now touching the second part will Master Greenwood bee so vnwise as to affirme that the errours in the Sermons and in the prayers of the Pastors bee the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces He will assuredly denie it for the graces of GOD all simple men know bring not foorth errors Then let him marke his conclusion no mens writings are without errours and imperfections therefore no mens writings are to be brought into the publike assemblie is not this conclusion as strong no translations of the Bible no Psalmes in meeter no Sermons nor Prayers of the Pastors are without errors and imperfections therfore none of these are to be brought into the publike assemblies Is there any so voide of sense that can not tast howe sower this Crabbe is which Maister Greenewood conueieth in among so many sweete Apples But he replieth further to confirme his matter by argument thus if anie mens writings may bee brought into the publike assemblies then al mens writings which are thought to be agreeable to Gods word may be brought in To prooue the consequence of this proposition he saith If God commaunde any to be brought in as being agreeable
there were three Arguments of Maister Greenewoods which I answered at once by denying the assumptions and shewing the reasons that moueth me for in déede he setteth downe some propositions and out of them affirmeth that which is false and so concludeth from thence another falsehood It is his whole manner of reasoning if I set downe this proposition God is a spirit it is most true if I will now make such an assumption as this a bodelie substance cannot worship a spirite this being most false there will followe a false conclusion which is that no man can worship God in bodie he is now therefore to proue his assumptions and before he commeth to it he crieth out stay and wonder they are blinde and make blinde Who be blinde and make blinde the Brownists This man hath some great thing in his minde which hee séeth and dooth wonder and now calleth vpon all other to stay vntill hee hath vttered it and so to wonder with him Is there anie doctrine more spirituall saieth hee any more inculcated by the holie Ghost then this accesse to God in the mediation of Christ c. I answer who dooth doubt of this You confesse I will say the propositions bee true and waightie matters which I doo in deed and thereby doo acknowledge that praier is a spirituall and Heauenlie thing farre from the power of man to performe of himselfe Now Master Greenewood confessing I doo this like as a great waue of the Sea commeth rowling and dooth in shâ—w threaten to ouerwhelme all but sodainelie falleth of it selfe So he swelling with the winde of his vanitie crieth out stay and wonder as if I should be ouer whelmed with the streame of his words and by and by falleth of himselfe confessing that I allow the propositions which in déede include the excellencie of praier and there is an end of his wonder The first assumption hee must prooue is that to reade vpon the booke when one prayeth is a quenching the spirite for this he alleageth the saying of Saint Paul Quench not the Spirite when he hath set downe this he addeth that to suppresse and leaue vnuttered the passions of our own heart by the work of the Spirite giuing vs cause of praier and in steed thereof to reade another mans writing he dooth not doubt will be founde and iudged of all that haue spirituall eyes to see a quenching of that grace I answer to this that the spéeches of the Scripture are most fit to vtter our passions by And what haue yee brought but the matter in question If wee respect such as be not able so well to vtter the spirituall eyes to sée and iudge that to bee a quenching of the Spirite are but the eyes of Brownists Therefore all his beggarlie cauils which follow and which haue been answered before are to be let passe as they come The second assumption to bee prooued is that it is presumptuous ignorance to come with a booke This is a lame sacrifice because a man dooth knowe how to doe better and doth not stil he would haue that graunted which is denied For I say the booke is to helpe men to doo the better which are in themselues dull and full of wants and without helpe should rather offer a lame sacrifice The third is for striuing in praier for which when hee hath spoken much of this striuing which is not denied for continuance and importunacie he imagineth that the whole matter is prooued for this as hee would make vs beléeue cannot bee effected vnles the Priest reade till he sweate againe with vaine repetitions I might followe with many words in these and the rest but séeing he hath confessed that the Psalmes were to bee sung vnto God let him shew how the verie reading then can bée so grieuous a thing for this the reader must consider that our question is not about the matter of prayer nor any corruption by vaine repetitions or otherwise nor about the hypocrisie and vaine babling of such as pray but of fashion but simplie of the reading when one prayeth which vntill he can prooue that diuers Psalmes either were not vttered to God as praier or that they did not reade them when they did sing he prooueth nothing but deceiueth the simple with the sight of true things which he spreadeth and from which he draweth foorth such false conclusions I leaue to the reader but to compare his answeres he maketh to the rest touching these arguments and see if they make any thing for uim and not rather against him The next Argument is that We must pray as necessitie requireth but stinted praiers cannot be as necessitie requireth Whereas I affirmed that there be things necessarie to be prayed for at all times and of all men which indéed are the most things which wée are to begge of the Lord. Of these there may bee prescript formes for all times and for other things that fall out sildome the praier is to be applied to the time and necessitie Here are large discourses and such as this Replier dooth much please himselfe in as a most spiritual man This I take to be the drift of the whole that in praying to GOD wee must come with féeling our wants that so we may pray earnestlie which I doo yéeld vnto as an vndoubted trueth He holdeth it as a great absurditie that we should want the same thing to morrow which wee doo to day or that all congregations should néed the same one day which they doo another Hee is most foolish in this and such like obiections for if I should stand to followe particulars there bee fewe things which we may not either for our selues or for our brethren at all assemblies begge of the Lord. If there be speciall necessities they are to be supplied The matter is cléere I will not spend time about it more than I haue in my former booke But whereas the Brownist doth obiect that a prescript forme doth shewe that men take vpon them to knowe mens secrets which God alone doth knowe it is most vaine and friuolous The Scriptures doo shewe that we all stand in neede of the same thinges and euermore being sicke of one disease though there may be some particular cases wherein some haue their seuerall neede And let him answer me now vnto this poynt There be fiue or sixe hundred in one flock which come together to pray if it be as you would beare vs in hand that there is such a variablenes in our needes that to day our necessitie requireth one thing to morrowe another then euery particular man and woman hath seuerall wants and is to pray for no more than they come with present feeling off how then shall the Minister frame his praier to fit them all One shall say this pertaineth not to me how shall I pray Another shall say this or that toucheth not my estate Many shal complaine that their seueral wants are not touched Tell me Ma. Greenwood or any Brownist doth