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A41214 Of the division betvveen the English and Romish church upon the reformation by way of answer to the seeming plausible pretences of the Romish party / much enlarged in this edition by H. Ferne ... Ferne, H. (Henry), 1602-1662. 1655 (1655) Wing F796; ESTC R5674 77,522 224

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Church Secondly we have Evidence against the Roman faith by that which we meet with in the Fathers appliable to some points of it 1. Sometimes we meet with the Name indeed which the Romish point bears but not the Thing as for example in some few Fathers there is mention of a purging fire after this life but neither doe they agree upon the same thing among themselves nor any of their conceits with that thing the Romanists call Purgatory So we meet with the name of Oblation and Sacrifice in the Eucharist but in senses we admit of not the Roman thing of a proper Sacrifice So we meet with prayers for the dead which indeed was the doctrine and practice of the firster Ages but it was not for relief of any Souls in a supposed purgatory to which the Romish doctrine and practice of praying for the dead is bound So for private confession we allow it in the sense and way the Antient Church did perswade and sometimes practice it not as imposed and practised by the Roman 2. Sometimes we meet with phrases in the Fathers favouring some Romish doctrine but then we shew by argument and reason from the same Fathers that those phrases doe not speak indeed the Romish sense As for Transubstantiation many hyperbolicall expressions many speeches founding the change and Transelementation of the Bread but we shew they could not mean a substantial change because we finde them use like phrases of the change of a Man in regeneration of Water in Baptism of Oyle in the Chrism after consecration in all which no substantial change or conversion Also because many of the Fathers in plain terms acknowledge This is my Body to be a figurative speech and because it is clearly evinced out of them that indeed they held the Bread remained in substance after consecration One instance whereof we had above in this Chap in their answer to the Eutychians Another we may have from their saying our bodies to be nourished by the Body of Christ and to receive increase by it Bellarmine here acknowledges an hyperbolical improper speech and that they meant our bodies ex contactu corporis Christi did receive a disposition to immortality a figurative speech indeed taking the body of Christ sacramentally and speaking of it what the sacramental element does indeed for our bodies are indeed nourished and receive increase by the Elements and this implies necessarily the substantial remaining of them But for Bellarmine his explication it is too impertinent as if receiving a disposition to immortality could satisfie their saying that our bodies are nourished and receive increase which we finde to be real upon the receiving the Elements as well as any other Bread or Wine and to say they receive that disposition ex contactu corporis Christi is to say Christs body is touched by ours when as this manner of the Romish real presence enforces them to say Christs body in the Sacrament is impalpable and cannot be touched or felt Let me adde here how Cardinal Perron in his Letter to Master Casaubon waving as it were Transubstantiation layes the whole Importance of the Sacrament on the real presence viz our Communion or substantial Union to the Body of Christ citing S. Cyrill who calls it the Knot of our Vnion with God Observe first that Transubstantiation it seems is not necessary to this importance of the Sacrament our Union with Christ see we if their real presence which divided from Transubstantiation must needs fall in with the Lutheran Consubstantiation will be necessary to it It is true that the importance of the Sacrament is our Union with Christ and for that Union we acknowledge there must be a real presence of Christs body to those it is united to in the Sacrament and so a real presence or Communication of the Body of Christ we hold and a real Union but as this Union is spiritual so is the Presence too yet real yea most real as when our Saviour said My flesh is meat indeed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 John 6. it was really so did really nourish yet spiritually Now secondly would I know how such a real presence as they contend for viz a corporal carnal or contradistinct to spiritual can be necessary to the importance of the Sacrament for that real presence being the bodily communication of Christs body as it is not the thing of the Sacrament or the importance of it viz our Union with Christ for all unworthy receivers have that bodily communication of his body into their mouthes and stomacks so cannot it be any help to or pledge and assurance of our substantial and true Union with Christ for their real presence communicates his body to our bodies without any sense and feeling nay against sense and so cannot be any pledge or sacramental confirmation to us of receiving him spiritually also it conveyes his body through the mouth without any real eating and so cannot be any representation or assurance of our spiritual eating Lastly it makes his body stay a while in the stomack without any union or incorporation and so cannot make any way to the working or assuring our reall Union with Christ our nourishing by his body and blood Of such importance is their real presence or bodily communication that it makes for nothing but to destroy the Sacrament and to take away the real eating of the Sacramental bread the real incorporation of it into our bodies the real nourishment received by it all which are necessary in the Sacrament to testifie and help our spiritual eating of Christs body our nourishing by it our Union with him which is the importance of the Sacrament And this of our spiritual eating and union is well set out by the Fathers that have written upon John 6. especially by S. Augustine yea and well expressed by the Councel of Florence Hujus Sacramenti effectus or as the Cardinal the importance of this Sacrament quem in anima operatur dignè sumentis est adunatio hominis ad Christum The effect of this Sacrament which it works upon the soul of the worthy Receiver is the uniting of a man to Christ and this I hope is a spiritual communication and then further Omnem effectum quem materialis cibus potus quoad vitam agunt corporalem hoc Idem quoad vitam spiritualem hoc Sacramentum operatur Every effect which material meat and drink hath as to the bodily life the same doth this Sacrament work as to the spiritual life What Protestant could have spoken better to set out the spiritual communication of Christs body and blood our incorporation into him union with him signified and wrought by the sacramental communication incorporation and nourishment of the Elements Again we oppose in some points the deeds of the Fathers against their phrases Phrases may be carelesly at first or figuratively spoken and may in time be altered and corrupted but deeds remain in History and deeds upon controversie speak the judgment indeed