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A12592 A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie. Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them. 1588 (1588) STC 22909; ESTC S117654 118,250 200

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be receiued at his handes which wanteth outward calling therefore not at his hands who is destitute of the inward graces R. Some Your Antecedent is true and maketh against the Anabaptists I deny your argument My reason is Omnia Sacramenta cum obsint indignè tractantibus prosunt tamen per eos dignè sumentibus Aug. contra epist Parmen lib. 2. ca 10. that is all Sacraments though they hurt such as doe handle them vnworthily yet they profit such as doe worthily receiue them at their handes I. Penry My reason concluding the vnlawfulnesse of communicating with readers hauing but an outward calling because it is a sinne to communicate with them which only want the same hauing fitnesse to teach is such as I cannot but maruaile that you would thinke it could be answered by a desiting of the question which is a fault in reasoning wherein belike you seeme to take delight You say againe that readers deliuer a Sacrament How can we be sure thereof and why may not I say as well that a man indued with gifts to teach doth deliuer a Sacrament though he haue no outward calling which assertion would be false R. Some You are the strangest answerer that euer I met with I must be content answere you If they sinne which receiue the Sacraments of him which hath an outward calling and wants the inward then many godly Israelites were polluted which receiued the Sacraments of the ignorant Leuiticall priestes which had an outward but not the inward calling You denie the latter therefore you cannot affirme the former vnlesse you be voyde of common sense Petitio principij begging of the question is a speciall pearle in your booke You charge me to delight in it I vse it not there is neither pleasure nor profit in it You are a priuiledged man you may say what you list The best is I can receiue no disgrace by any speeches of such as you are I. Penry We haue no warrant to reeiue an extraordinarie Sacrament But that which is administred by ignorant ministers is an extraordinary Sacrament if it be any Therefore we haue no warrant to receiue it R. Some I deny your Minor and doe adde this first that it is a Sacrament by your own confession pag. 50.51 which is administred by ignorant ministers Secondly that it is no extraordinarie Sacrament which is deliuered by them vnlesse you will call Baptisme and the holy Supper extraordinarie Sacraments I. Penry By an extraordinary Sacrament I meane Baptisme or the Lords Supper administred eyther priuately by a minister or any way by one that is no minister I neuer affirmed the Elements deliuered by readers to bee Sacraments It is one thing not to deny them an other thing to affirme them to be Sacraments The former I haue written the latter I neuer did and they doe my writings great iniurie that report the contrary R. Some In the shutting vp of your Treatise you haue broched two errours the one is that it is an extraordinarie Sacr●●ent which is deliuered any way by one that is no minister Of this I gather that you holde that one which is no minister may deliuer a Sacrament for an extraordinarie Sacrament is a Sacramēt If I would enter into your vaine I might set downe these consequents viz. that bargemen children women Idiots c. in your iudgement may administer an extraordinary Sacrament Your other errour is that the holy Supper c. is an extraordinary Sacrament when it is deliuered priuately by a minister I am not of your iudgement in this I am of M. Caluines therefore I set downe this proposition viz. that it is lawfull to administer the holy Supper in a particuler house if some cautions and circumstances be obserued The reasons do appeare a litle after It pleaseth you to say that as you neuer denied so you neuer affirmed it to be a Sacrament which is deliuered by an vnpreaching minister A worthy resolution If you denie not that it is a Sacrament c. you doe affirme it For not to deny is to affirme Euery child can teach you that lesson I doe lesse meruaile that you are so short and wide in excellent pointes of diuinitie when you faile in a common point of Grammer Thus I see how complete a man you are R. Some If any will conclude of these my answeres that I mislike M. Penries desire of a learned ministerie in Wales hee takes vp that which I neuer let fall for I desire with al my heart and the Lord for his Christs sake grant it that not onely Wales may be furnished with worthy gouernours and pastours but all other parts of her Maiesties Dominions that Gods graces may be more and more multiplied vpon vs and our posteritie and his holy hand watch ouer vs. M. Penry sayeth nothing to this CHAP. 15. R. Some IT IS LAWFVL TO ADMInister the holy Supper in a priuate house if some cautions be obserued The cautions which must be obserued are Calu. Epist 363. 1. That there be a conuenient nomber to communicate with the sicke partie 2. That the holy Supper bee deliuered according to Christes Institution 3. That the explication of the mysterie bee ioyned with the action M. Caluines reasons Epist. 363. IT is forcible for the confirmation of faith to receiue a pledge as it were of Christes hand whereby wee may bee more assured that wee are of his body and that we are fed with Christes flesh and blood vnto hope of eternall life The receiuing of the holy Supper doeth arme vs in our spirituall batraile therefore the godly sicke man is not to be barred of that singuler comfort An eripiendum est singulare adiumētum quo fretus ad luctam alacriùs descendat victoriam obtineat The holy Supper is a signe of holy vnitie amongst Gods children therefore the godly sicke man whether hee haue a languishing sicknes or be at deathes doore is not to be barred from professing his vnitie and consent with Gods Church Coena sanctaeinter filios Dei vnitatis est Symbolum If any shall reply that the holy Supper is not a priuate action of any housholde but meere Ecclesiasticall 1. Cor. 11. M. Caluines answere is that the holy Supper deliuered to a godly sicke man is part of the publique action Partem vel appendicem esse constat publicae actionis M. Caluine addeth these words Neque verò Paulus dum Corinthios admonet domum cuique suam esse in qua comedat bibat Coenam excludit à priuatis aedibus Tunc neque fidelibus patebant templa neque vnquam permissum esset noua extruere Sed tantùm à communibus epulis discernit spirituale mysterium ne cum illis misceatur That is Paul when he doeth admonish the Corinthians that they haue priuate houses to eate and drinke in doeth not shut the holy Supper from priuate houses For then the faithful neither had vse of any Churches nor were suffred to build new Only he distinguisheth the spirituall