the woordes of Christes supper he addeth vnto it these woordes For sith he called it saith Frith a foule and a wicked thing to eate his fleshe then may you soone perceiue that he thought it as foule and as wicked a thinge to eate his body seyng his bodie is fleshe And then consequently it shall folow that other this woord eate where Christe saide take this and eate it must be taken spiritually or els that this saiyng of Christe This is my body muste be figuratiuely spoken But this woorde eate is taken after the letter for they did in deede eate the bread therfore it must needes folow that this sentence This is my body must be figuratiuely spoken Now haue you hearde what he saieth and gathereth of it him selfe CATH Than saiyst trew And therfore shall I neede to byd thee marke his false lye that he maketh here agayne of Saint Austen For doth Saint Austen call it a fowle and a wicked thynge as this lyar sayth he doothe when he sayth no more but that the scripture therin seemeth to commaunde an euyll or a wicked thyng Saint Austen nother calleth it so him selfe nor yet doth say that the scripture calleth it or commaundeth it so nother He saith the scripture so mech to commaunde suche a thynge And doth not say the scripture doth commaunde it But in deede to commaunde and seme to commaunde to call and seme to cal or to be seeme to be is all one with Frith As who say there is nothing otherwyse then it semeth to be nor any thyng semeth to be otherwise then it is HE. Sir ye can not auoyde his argument so CATH His argument what is that HERE Ye haue harde how he dooeth say that Either this word eate which Christ said take this rate it must be taken spiritually or els that this saiynge of Christ This is my bodi must be figuratiuely spoken But this woorde â—ate saith he is taken after the letter for they did he saieth eate the bread therfore it must needes folow that this sentence This is my body must be fyguratiuely spoken CATHOLICVS I meruayle where Frythe learned this kynde of argumente whiche can brynge forth such a woorthy conclusion For dooth it not properly folow that this sentence This is my body muste be figuratiuely taken because as he saith this woorde eate is taken after the letter And this he doothe but say without any proofe at all HERE That is not so For he dooth proue that this woorde Eate is taken after the letter CATH That is but a parte of it and yet for all thy saiyng he proueth not that nother HERE Yes he proueth it by this that as he saith they did eate the bread CATH Ye but that I denye For without question they dyd eate that which they were byd to eate whereof it was to them sayde Take eate This is my body whiche shalbe geuen for you And that was not breade except thou wilt say that bread was geuen for their redempcion And therfore where he saith that this woorde bread is taken after the letter And therof would haue it folow that this sentence This is my body muste be figuratiuely spoken I aske him why figuratiuely more then lytterally or why fyguratiuelie and not rather litterally For if the woorde of eatynge he taken after the letter dooth it not thereof muche better folowe that the woordes of that whiche is eaten shulde be taken after the latter likewise To take the woord of eatynge in a litteral sence and therfore the woordes of the thyng eaten is a figuratiue sence is more strange then I can skil of Yet the one saieth he must needes folow the other But by what reason although no man can tell yet to such as will needes beleue him it is good enough although it be neuer so false and foolishe to any man els And therefore sith it appereth in the .47 leafe of his booke that he taketh not the eatynge of Christes body but onely for the beleuynge in him I aske him why may not this woord Eate be taken spiritually as well as this text This is my body be spoken figuratiuely or why may not the same text be taked litterally as wel as this woorde Eate be taken after the letter sith thes be so ioyned together HERE Because there is a great difference betwene them CATH Ye that is as Frith woulde haue vs take them but not as our sauiour Christe in the vnitee of sence and sentence together doth ioyne them For there is no doubte but the meanynge of this woorde Eate and also the meanynge of this same saiynge of Christe This is my bodye are bothe together of him so inseperably kint and conteyned in this one sentence Except ye eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue life in you That they both maketh one perfit sentence and sence whether thou take it to be litterall or spirituall And therfore by this one lesson aforesayde it maye well appere that they can not so differ in sence but that they muste other be bothe spirituall and not literall or bothe litterall and not spirituall or els bothe not onely spirituall but also lytterall Wherefore Frythe can not saye that they be bothe spirituall and not litterall because he sayeth â—he an◠〈◊〉 them that is to saie this woorde Eate is taken after the letter Againe he can not say that they are both litterall and not spirituall because he dothe both holde and say that the other which is This is my body must be taken figuratiuely that is to say spiritually And therfore it must needes folow that they be bothe not only spirituall but also litterall Cap. 11. HHERE. Syr that can not be For as I was about to tell you before Frithe bringeth Saynt Austen playne agaynst it CATH How so HERE Looke you in the .23 leafe of hys booke and there shall ye finde how he dothe alledge Saynt Austen bothe in Latin and also in Englishe in these wordes Quando loquebatur dominus noster Iesus Christus de corpore suo Nisi Inquit quis manducauerit carnem meam et biberit sanguinem meum non habet in se vitam Caro enim mea vere est cibus et Sanguis meus vere est potus Intellectus spiritualis credentem saluum facit quia littera occidit Spiritus est qui viuificat That is to say When our Lorde Iesus Christe spake of his body excepte quod he a man eate my fleshe and drinke my bloud he shall haue no life in him false For my fleshe is very meat and my bloud is very drinke The spiritual vnderstanding saueth him that beleueth for the letter killeth but the spirit quickeneth Here you see playne that Saynt Austen is clearly agaynst the litterall sence CATH Whether he be or not it is Frithes minde therein whiche I require HE. That shall ye haue for his owne wordes vpon the same place be these Here maye you playnelie
it was then nor the same then that it is now in one respecte And yet the very same then that it is now and the very same now that it was then in an other respecte For suche is the difference betwene the substance and the state condition and accidentall qualites of any thinge that it may alway and trewly be sayde to be the same and not the same in those dyuerse respectes Cap. 16. CATHOLICVS Thou makest me greatly maruell to here the speake HERE Why so CATH Because thou haste as thy wordes doeth declare so good vnderstanding of the difference that is betwene the substance of a thinge and the state condition or accidentall qualites of the same And yet neuerthelesse wilt take Saynt Austen so ouerthwartly as thou doest For where he sayeth Christ hath giuen vs the same fleshe to eate wherein he walked here in earthe Thou takest hym to meane that fleshe in euery condicion wyth all suche accidentall qualites as it had then And not in the only respecte of the substance of it And agayne where he sayeth Ye shall not eate this body that ye see Thou takest him to speake that in respecte of the substance and not in the onelie respecte of the state condition and qualites of it So that thou vnderstandest Saint Austen wronge in bothe places That is to saye thou takest his meanynge of the fyrste place to be in the seconde and of the seconde to be in the first as the places them selues are well able to declare For where he sayth Christ hath giuen vs the same fleshe to eate wherein he walked here in earthe Cleare it is that in this same worde vs Saint Austen amonge other ment hym selfe to be one And in that he ment him selfe to be one amonge other to whome he sayeth Christe hath geuen his fleshe to eate playne it is he neuer mente that Christe gaue it him or them to eate but as it was in his tyme when he should eate it And in his time when he shoulde and did eate it it was nother passible nor mortall nor yet subiecte to any such other accidentall and naturall qualites as it was before the resurrection therof Wherfore thou mayest by thys with halfe an eye perceue that Saynt Austen neuer spake those wordes of Christes geuing his owne fleshe to eate in respecte of anie suche qualites but onlie in respecte of the veritee of the substance HERE Then why doeth he adde vnto them these wordes sayinge Wherein he walked here in earth CATH That he doeth to declare his mynde and meaninge in the veritee of the thinge whiche was in Saynt Austens time euen as it is now the very same wherein he walked here in earth and is now in the holy Sacrament The verie same I say in the only respecte of the substance but as euerie man doeth or ought to know not the same in respect of those qualites which in his resurrection were chaunged into such perfections as are to vs inscrutable and incomprehensible And therfore of the other side where Saynt Austen sayeth Ye shall not eate this body that ye see Why wilt not thou see that to be spoken not in respect of the substance but of the qualites when the facultee of seyng or sight doothe no farther extende or pertayne but vnto the vnderstanding of the qualitees and not of the substaunce For if he had sayd Ye shall not eate this body and gone no farther Or had added vnto it these woordes Which shalbe geuen for you As it was sayde at his institucion of the holy sacrament it had bene then an other matter But when he saieth Ye shall not eate this body that ye see What is it els to say but that ye shall not eate this body visible or this body sensible or this body in such condicion and state as ye now see it in When the seeyng it selfe dooth import no farther of the body but as aperteyneth vnto the sight or sensibilitee thereof HERE Then why doth he adde vnto it these wordes saiyng I haue set foorth vnto you a certayne sacrament If it be spiritually vnderstande it geueth you lyfe But the fleshe profiteth nothyng CATH First these woordes But the fleshe profiteth nothyng Are in this place of Frithes owne adding and putting vnto the other before And not of Saynt Austens puttyng there How be it because they be the woordes of the gospell and of Saint Austen recited not far from the same place where Frith doth take the rest I wyll not cleane omit them but I will spare them for a while And first go to this that he saith I haue set foorth vnto you a certayne sacrament and beyng spiritually vnderstand it geueth you lyfe Therefore what other thinge is that to say but this that when he saith Ye shall not eate this body that ye see Ye shal not eate it in such sorte as ye see it but as it shal be in a sacrament wherin ye shall not see it For els if he had not so ment he woulde not haue sayde Except ye eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue life in you For he ment not that fleshe to be eaten in that proper visible fourme whiche they saw and yet to be eaten in deede for all that or els he woulde not haue denied lyfe as he dothe for the not eating of it And therfore eaten it must needes be of very necessitee Althoughe not that as it was of them seene but yet that as it shuld be of them and vs both trewly and verily beleued in the holy sacrament And for that cause he saieth I haue sette forth vnto you a certayne sacrament and beyng spiritually vnderstande that is to say farther and farre otherwyse then your sences can reache it geueth you lyfe Wherefore because here appeereth both eatyng and not eatyng of one thynge both at once whiche are bothe trew And that can not be in one respect it must therfore nedes folow to be vnderstand and taken as the trewth is in two respectes Wherof the one that is to say the eatyng is in respect of the verye thinge with the inuisible state occult and secrete behauiour thereof as it is in the holy sacrament And the other that is to say the not eatyng is not but in respect of the visible fourme and sencible apparence thereof to their eyes And therfore this eating and not eatinge be not here so direct contraries as thou takest them for Cap. 17. HHERE. Then where is this become that he saith If it be spiritually vnderstand it geueth you lyfe As who say or els it doth not CATH I haue tolde the that already HERE Ye but yet euen therin consisteth Frithes purpose altogether as it maie partly apeere by that he saith in the .21 leafe of his booke where he recityng the saynge of Christe to the Iewes that beleued him not And also the minde of Saint Austen therupon as he saith he hath these woordes Christe said doth
hede what they beleue and what they thynke I will not deny but those warnings be very good but yet to say they be both one as Frith doth take them who wold vnderstande it so but only he and the blind weiward schole which thou art of Cap. 42. HERRE Sir ye maie say what ye will But neuerthelesse all these woordes of eatyng and drinkyng are not ment litterally but of the eatynge drynking of the sacrament in the only respect of it selfe not in the respect of christs owne very flesh and blood which Frith saith is not there in it in deede CATH Then sith thou wilt be so folishe as to take it after that sort tell me what the Sacrament is HERE As Frith dooth say a figure token or signe of Christes body and blood representyng his deth CATH And is there no more in it but that HERE No. CATH Then why is it damnable to eate it vnwoorthyly HER. Because it is as I sayd a figure token or signe of Christs body and blood representynge his death CATH Ye but then why is the sentence of damnacion declared vpon the vnwoorthy eatynge and drynkynge of it more then vpon the vnwoorthy lookyng or behoulding of it HER. Because Paule saith it is so CATH Nay Saint Paule dooth not say that the one is any more damnable then the other For he speaketh but of the one alone And yet therin his saiynge dooth not make it damnable nother For it dooth but declare it so to bee And therefore I aske of the why the other shoulde not be so to For if I be vnworthy to eate it I am without question vnwoorthy to looke vpon it For beetwene the acte of eatynge and the acte of lookynge or behouldynge doubtlesse there is no difference of any woorthynesse or vnwoorthynesse more in the one then in the other Wherefore if there be none other cause why it is damnable to eate it vnworthyly but because it is a fygure token or signe of Christes boddy and blood representynge his death then it must needes be as damnable to looke vpon it or beholde it vnwoorthyly because figures tokens and sygnes perteyne rather and more commonlie to the sence of the sight then to anye eatynge or drynkynge other And therefore vnwoorthy seyng or beholdyng of it can be no lesse faute then is the vnwoorthy eatynge and drynkynge of it if there be no more in it then thou speakest of Wherfore let vs go farther and consider this that if it be nothynge els but a figure token or sygne of Christes body and blood representynge his death why is the sentence of damnacion declared vpon the vnworthy eatyng and drynkynge of that more then vpon the vnwoorthy lookinge and beholdyng of the Crucifix or the roode For that is a fygure token or signe of Christes boddy and blood representynge his death to whiche it doth much more aptly muche more apparantly much more lyuely and therefore muche more profitablie then the sacramente doeth if there bee no more in the sacrament then thou saist there is For that the roode doth it doth it most sensiblie But that the sacrament doth it doth it scāt intelligibly And therfore if there be no more in the sacrament then is in the roode then is the roode as good and better then the sacrament is HERE No sir not so For I will not deny but the sacramente hath in it that the roode hath not CATH What is that HERE The sacrament hath in it the ordynance of Christe And the roode but the ordinaunce of man For Christe did institute and ordeine the one and man the other CATH Then thou muste needes graunte that therein the ordinaunce of man is better then the ordinaunce of Christe For euery figure token or signe is alway ordeyned to signifie And that signe must needes be best whiche doth most aptly and moste manifestly represent the thinge that it signifieth But the roode doth much more manifestly represent the thing that it signifieth then the sacrament dooth wherefore the roode muste needes bee a better signe then the sacramente is Therefore if the roode bee as it seemeth by Frith a better signe then the sacrament is And the better signe must nedes procede of the better ordinance as the better effect of the better cause it foloweth plaine that the ordinance of man in the roode is better then the ordinance of Christe in the sacrament HERE Tushe sir I can not away with that reason CATH That is because thou art not able to auoide it as thou art not in dede except thou graunt a better thing to be in the sacrament then any figure token or signe other And a better there is none but onely the verye thinge that is thereby signified which is the very body and blood of Christe For what can be directly better then a signe in that kinde of thinges but onely that whiche it dooth signifie because there is no meane betweene them wherof any comparison is to be made but onely of the one to the other that is to saye betweene them two Therefore other thou must nedes graunt the blessed body and blood of Christe to bee verely and really in the sacrament whereby the sacrament is made more and better then is anye other fygure token or signe or els thou must needes graunt the roode to be a better figure token or signe then the sacrament is And so the ordinaunce of man to be better as I sayd in the one then the ordinaunce of Christe in the other Wherefore by this whiche thou darest not graunt thou maist if thou haue any grace well perceiue the very cause why the sacramente dooth in the Iudgement of all trew christen people so farre passe the roode as it dooth For although the roode be a worthy sygne and very expedient for vs to behoulde yet it is not ordeyned but onely to refreshe our memorie fayth and deuocion Where as the vertue of the sacrament is to geue lyfe helth and saluacion Wherof the glorious author him selfe doth saie Take eate this is my body whiche shall be geuen for you He that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my blood hath lyfe euerlastynge and I wyll reyse him vp agayne in the latter daie for my fleshe is veryly meate and my blood is verely drynke And why dooth he say it is verely meate and verely drynke but because we shoulde verely eate it and verely drynke it For what so euer is verely meate is without doubt to be veryly eaten accordingly And therfore what can bee spoken more litterally as touchynge the verytee of the thynge Wherefore it was a very madde and a weyward phansie of Fryth to saye or thynke that there is none other meanynge or vnderstandynge of those plaine woordes of eatynge and drynkynge of that holye fleshe and blood but onely feyth and beleefe And that as I sayde in so many sondrye places and by suche and so many notable and moste woorthy authors as thát matter is spoker of sette foorth and by those
figurata loquutio est Nisi Manducaueritis inquit carnem filij hominis biberitis eius sanguinem non habebitis vitam in vobis Facinus vel flagitium videtur iubere Figura est ergo praecipiens passioni dominicae esse communicandum suauiter atque vtiliter in Memoria recondendum quod pro nobis Caro eius crucifixa vulnerata sit That is to say When so euer the Scripture or Christe seemeth to commaunde any foule or wicked thinge then must that text be taken figuratiuelye that is it is a phrase allegory and maner of speakyng and muste be vnderstande spiritually and not after the letter Except saith Christe ye eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue lyfe in you He semeth saith S. Austen to command a foule and a wicked thynge It is therfore a figure commaundyng vs to be partakers of his passion and sweetely and profitably to prynte in our minde that his fleshe was crucified and wounded for vs. Now haue you harde his allegacion of S. Austen both in latine and also in Englishe CATH Therefore thou shalt here myne allegacion also of the same place of S. Austen againe and then tel me how Frithes allegacion therof and mine both agre together For S. Austens woordes be these Si autem flagitium aut facinus videtur iubere aut vtilitatem aut beneficentiam vetare figurata loquutio est Nisi Manducaueritis inquit carnem filij hominis sanguinem biberitis non habebitis vitam in Vobis Facinus vel flagitium videtur iubere Figura est ergo praecipiens passioni dominicae esse communicandum suauiter atque vtiliter recondendum in Memoria quod pro nobis Caro eius crucifixa vulnerata sit That is to say If the Scripture seme to commaunde an euill or a wicked thinge or forbid a profite or a good thinge it is a figuratiue speache Except ye eate he saith the flesshe of the sonne of man and drynke his blood ye shall not haue lyfe in you Therfore it is a figure commaundinge vs to be partakers of his passion and swetely and profitably to prynt in our memorie that his fleshe was crusified and wounded for vs. Here thou maiest now perceiue plaine that Fryth hath not so many latine woordê in his allegacion of S. Austen as I haue in myne and yet I haue fewer Englisshe woordes in myne then he hath in his by a great sorte HERE How cummeth that to passe CATH Not without a falshed of his parte if thou marke it well For where these fewe latyne woordes of S. Austens Figurata loquutio est are no more to say but as I haue sayd it is a figuratiue speeche Fryth doth Englyshe them after this sorte saiyng Then must that text he taken figuratiuely that is it is a phrase allegorie and maner of speakynge and muste be vnderstande spiritually and not after the letter Hast thou harde of any trew man that wolde or truly coulde so turne those latine woordes into Englishe as he doth Doest thou not see how his wily falshed doth here vnder pretence and colour of Englishinge S. Austens woordes brynge in nothyng els but his owne false phantasticall exposicion of them to make his disciples beleue and thinke that Saint Austens meanyng was but accordyng to this his owne false feynynge what woordes hath Saynt Austen here that may be wrested to this whiche this false lyar doth say it must be vnderstande spiritually and not after the letter where fyndeth he this same not after the letter therin lyeth all the matter And thereof here speaketh S. Austen nothinge at all For he saith no more but that this texte Excepte ye eate the flishe of the sonne of man and drinke his blood ye shall not haue lyfe in yow Is a figuratiue speache And dooeth not saye onely figuratiue or not litterall as this marchaunt doothe beare vs in hande and woulde make vs beleue that he dooth HERE Yet sir if it bee a figuratius speche then must it be vnderstand figuratiuely CAT. That is trew HE. Therfore if it must he vnderstand figuratiuely then it may not be vnderstand litterally CATH That foloweth not For Fryth him selfe doth graunt and say as I tolde the before that some texts must be vnderstand both figuratiuely and also litterally And therfore why may not this which Frith speaketh of be one of them as it may indeed for any thing that Saint Austen saith here to the contrary And yet as though S. Austen had said the contrary as he doth not this false Raynard is not ashamed to knit vp the knot with these woordes This trewth saith he thankes he to god doth Saint Austen declare vnto vs. which thinge besyde the openynge of this text against maister Woores minde doth plainly show what he thought in the woords of Christes supper Whiche is no more to say but that those woordes maie not be vnderstande after the letter because here Saint Austen telleth vs nothing of that matter whether they may or not Therfore doth not Saint Austen declare this trewth vnto vs very well when he speaketh nothing of it HERE Sir if it might be vnderstande both figuratiuely and also litterally to S. Austen wold not haue made mention as he dooth of the one sense and not of the other CATH How knowest thou that HERE It is most like so CATH Ye to Frith And therfore that is enough to him to conclude so falsely therof as he doth But thou muste vnderstande that it was not Saint Austens minde there to speake of any of them both that is to saye nother of the one sense nor of the other but as it chaunsed the one and not the other to serue his purpose for example of that he had in hande whiche was to geue a rule whereby a figuratiue speach in the scripture might be knowen And not to discusse how or whether that text might bee litterally vnderstande or not And therefore graunt this to be trew which Fryth doeth here say that Saint Austen Dothe plainly show what he thought in those woordes of christes supper Yet it foloweth not thereof that he dooth showe all that he thought therin For it is two thinges to show what he thought and to showe all that he thought HERE Marry syr that is trew but Fryth for the openynge thereof dooeth alledge him agayne in these woordes Cap. 3. CATH Nay softe I praie thee let vs fyrste here what Frithe fayth more of this place whiche he hath here alledged all ready before we go anye farther For he hath yet showed vs almost nothyng what he gathereth of it after his owne mynde but onely his false exposicion thereof brought in as I sayde vnder the colour of Englishyng of Saint Austens woordes Therfore let me here what he saith farther of it him selfe without any cloke or colour at all HERE That shall ye do For immediately after this his saiyng that S. Austen doth plainly show what he thought in
be so and not onely so HERE Ye why not Cap. 18. CATHOLI Then if thou rest vpon that what if Frith knew not what the spirituall vnderstandynge of it is HERE Yes that I dare saie he did CATH Then he wolde haue geuen it a difinicion and made it certaine before he had wrought anie conclusion thervpon as euery threw and wyse persuader dothe in what so euer he taketh vpon him to proue But this we see he did not And why but other because he was therin ignoraunt and therfore coulde not do it or els because he was of such a malicious falshed that though he could ye he wolde not doe it Which is of the twayn most lyke to be trew For he saw perchance that if he had made a good difinicion or playne distinction betwene the spirituall and the carnall vnderstandyng therof it should not only not haue serued but also clene haue destroied his purpose altogether And therfore he chose rather to roue at a vēture thē to shote at any mark certein wherfore let vs seke out the certeinte of this spirituall vnderstandyng And that once had wee shall soone see whether he went about to bring it to light or els to hyde it all together or no. For he will not deny but that Saynt Austen and other olde auncient fathers and doctors of the holy church did certeinly know it when he pretendeth to proue all his purpose moste chiefely by them HERE I graunt that for them he wil not deny CATH Then remember thou well what I haue hytherto sayd And let vs returne to thexaminacion of that which thou hast recited all ready out of the 21. leafe of his booke HERE Marry sir that is how Christe to those that beleued him not did say Doth this offende you what if ye shall see the sonne of man ascendynge thyther where he was before Then addeth S. Austen saith he you shal know that he ment not to geue his fleshe to eate with your teeth For he shall ascende hole c. CATHOLICVS Is this Saint Austens saiynge vpon those woordes of Christ HERE So saith Frith CATH Therefore here thou shalt see once agayne what Frith was For if it were not for auoyding of tediousnesse I woulde recite vnto the the very woordes of S. Austen vpon those words of Christe both in latine and also in english but his woords in latine turned into englishe shall be sufficient which are euen very these Christe answerynge sayd Dothe this offende you that I sayde I geue you my flesshe to eate and my bloodde to drynke This offendeth you in deede Therefore what if ye see the sonne of man ascendynge thyther where he was before What is this By this he eased some whom he knew By this he opened wherwith they were offended Wherwith vtterly if they woulde haue vnderstande it For they thought him to deuyde and distribute his body But he sayde he wolde ascende into heauen euen whole When ye shall see the sonne of man ascendinge where he was before ye shall certaynlie see euen then that he distributeth not his body in that maner that you thinke Ye shall euen then certenly vnderstande that his grace is not with bytinges consumed Now where is this that Frithe sayeth of Saynt Austen You shall know that he ment not to geue his fleshe to eate with your teethe Where is this I saye where is it in deede it can not be founde And therefore in the steede of that thys we finde that Frithe was nothinge ashamed of his lies For if he had he wolde neuer haue put so many of them in his writinges as he did And besides this what faute is there here founde with those vnbeleuers of Christe whiche vnderstode him not in this matter HERE This faute That their vnderstandinge ranne vpon the fleshe of Christ CATH That is false For their faute was not therin but it was in their misvnderstanding of the maner of it as here Saynt Austen in playne wordes doeth well declare they thought him to deuyde and distribute his body peece mele And that misvnderstandinge doeth Christes question touche directly sayinge What yf ye see the sonne of man ascendynge where he was before What were this question of his hoole body to the purpose if it were not to confound and ouerthrow their misvnderstandinge of the diuision therof in partes for by this he opened as Saynt Austen sayeth wherewith they were offended Whiche was with the distribution and erogation of his body in partes as they thought So that their faute for whiche they are here reprehended was for that they gaue no farther credence to Christ in the maner of geuyng his fleshe to eate then theyr owne imagination and blinde vnderstandinge did leade them vnto And not for that they thought hys meanynge to be of hys owne very fleshe in deede For whiche thinking of his owne very fleshe they bare here no smake of any blame at all as they should haue done if it had bene a faute so to thinke Wherefore this thou mayst see how very nothinge this place maketh for Frithe notwithstandinge all the great trust that he had therin Cap. 19. HERE Ye but syr ye must consider that as you haue herde Frithe goeth farther then this Saying euen there Christ addeth It is the spirite that quickeneth the fleshe profiteth nothinge This text excludeth all vnderstanding of flesh and driueth vs to the spirit altogether CATH There Frithe wolde haue it indeede But why doeth he not bringe in Saynt Austen there as well vpon this text The fleshe profiteth nothinge As he wolde make vs beleue he doeth vpon this other before It is the spirit that quickeneth Sythe they ioyne so nere together as immediatly one text after an other can do HERE He thought it was no neede because this The fleshe profiteth nothinge is so playne of it selfe CATH It is harde to finde thee without an excuse But neuerthelesse thou shalt here what Saynt Austen sayeth of it for all that And then iudge why Frith did passe it ouer For Saynt Austens wordes turned into englishe are euen these What is this sayth Saynt Austen that he putteth to it it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing let vs say vnto hym because he suffreth vs not speakinge contrary but coueting to know O good lorde and mayster how doth fleshe profit nothing when thou hast sayd except a man eate my fleshe and drinke my bloud he shall not haue lyfe in hym doth lyfe profit nothing And for what pupose are we that we are but that we might haue euerlasting life whiche thou hast promysed with thy flesh Therfore what is it profiteth nothing the fleshe profiteth nothinge but as they vnderstode it for they vnderstode fleshe so as it is rent or torne in a dead carkas or as it is soulde in the shambles and not as it is quickened with the spirite Therfore so it is sayde the fleshe profiteth nothinge as it is sayde science puffeth vp Now therfore ought
in bothe For as he tooke the one to be onely and mere spirituall So he tooke the other to be only and whole carnal Which are bothe false as it may well appere and it were but by the very substance of the thinge it selfe whiche indede is fleshe But yet some way so spiced with spiritualitee that it is nother carnall nor yet only or mere spirituall but spiritually to be vnderstande for the spirituall state whiche it hath obteyned Cap. 24. HERE Syr then let me here somewhat more whereby I may better perceyue what spirituall vnderstandinge is For yet I know it not CATH It is euen that whiche is not carnall HERE By that am I neuer the nere CATH Therefore mende thy question and then thou mayest chaunce of a better answer HER. Then what is carnall vnderstandinge CATH That is well asked For with that thou shouldest begyn Because that once knowne thou shalt know the other so muche the better For that order in the same matter vpon this text the fleshe profiteth nothing doth holy Chrisostome folow in these wordes Quid autem est carnaliter intelligere simpliciter veres dicuntur Neque aliud quippiam excogitare Non enim ita iudicanda sunt quae videntur Sed misteria omnia interrioribus oculis consideranda hoc est spiritualiter Qui non manducat carnem meam et bibit meum sanguinem non habet vitam in semet ipso Quomodo nihil prodest caro sine qua nemo potest viuere vide quod ea perticula caro non prodest quic quam non de ipsa carne sed de carnali auditione dictum est That is to say But what is it to vnderstande carnally simply as the thynges are spoken and to imagyn therof nothing els For those thinges which are seene are not to be iudged so But all mysteris are to be considered with the inwarde eyes This is spiritually He that eateth not my flesh and drinke my bloud hath not lyfe in him Now doeth the flesh profit nothing without the whiche no man may lyue Marke that this parte the fleshe profiteth nothing is not sayd of the fleshe it selfe but of the carnall hearyng of it Here by this thou mayst well perceyue that carnall vnderstandinge extendeth no farther herein then sensible experience doth leade But spirituall vnderstanding extendeth to that which no sensible experience is able to reache or come vnto although it be in sensible thinges As the grace of baptim although it be in the sensible sacrament and ministration thereof yet it is insensible it selfe Farther more thou mayst here also perceyue that holy Chrisostome doeth not reprehende the vnderstandinge of the fleshe it selfe but the carnall hearyng of it That is to say the fleshly or fleshy vnderstanding of it Whiche is when it is taken and vnderstande after the fleshe as it is in the commen course of nature For that he doeth here reprehende and nothing els Cap. 25. HERE Well syr let it so be And wolde you haue me therefore vnderstande very fleshe to be in the Sacrament CATH Indede I wolde haue thee beleue it HERE I take vnderstanding and beleuynge to be without any great difference in this case And therfore because this poynt runneth vpon spirituall vnderstandinge how can I vnderstande very fleshe but that myne vnderstanding thereof must be carnall and after the fleshe whiche I do vnderstande CATH Ye what fleshe doest thou meane HERE Mary Christes flesh CATH I pray thee hartely vnderstande that flesh euen after that fleshe and spare not For so thyne vnderstanding of it shall nother be carnall nor yet natural nother as carnall and naturall be communly taken For if thou vnderstande that fleshe after that fleshe indeede thou doest then vnderstande it euen as it is and not as it was that is to say as it is now and hath bene euer since his resurrection But not as it was betwene that the first time of his incarnacion How be it this same carnal after the flesh that I meane here is not in him properlie called carnall after the flesh now but spirituall and after the spirit Because in him what so euer was cōteyned vnder or in the signification of this worde carnal is now turned so farre into the contrary that it is comprehended vnder the signification of this worde spirituall And therfore if thou vnderstande that fleshe after as it is now thine vnderstanding of it is then spirituall and not carnall HERE Ye but although that fleshe be as ye say spirituall yet it is fleshe And therefore sithe it is flesh how shall I know when I vnderstand it spiritually and not carnally CATH When thou doest vnderstand it as it is HERE Ye how is that CATH Immortall For if thou vnderstande it otherwise then so thou vnderstandest it carnally and after the flesh and not spirituallie For althoughe immortalite commeth to the flesh yet it commeth not of the fleshe but of the spirit And therefore if thou vnderstand it immortal thine vnderstanding therof is spirituall HERE Of immortalitee we haue none experience And therefore how or by what meane shoulde I vnderstande it immortall For I take immortalitee to be suche a thynge as doeth farre passe my vnderstandynge and as I tkynke yours to CATH Althoughe it passeth my vnderstanding neuer so farre yet so longe as it passeth not my beleueynge I do not care but I am afrayde that it passeth not only thy vnderstandinge but also thy beleuynge to HERE Nay that it doeth not for I beleue it verely CATH Then if thou do so For the proufe of the thinge this onely testymonie of of the holy Apostle is enoughe where he sayeth Christus resurgens ex mortuis iam non moritur Mors illi vltra non dominabitur That is to say Christ rysing from death dieth no more Death hath no more dominion ouer him Therfore that liuinge fleshe whiche is aboue and be yonde al the power of death must needes be immortall For althoughe death it made once a fray wherin death gat the victory and the fleshe gaue way for a litle whyle yet soone after that same fleshe gat the victory of death agayne and that for euer Wherefore if there were no more nor anie thinge els wherby to vnderstande it immortal but this one testimoni of thapostle it were as it is sufficient euen enoughe to any good christen man HERE Syr because ye speake of enough Is it enough to vnderstand or beleue it immortall CA. It is enough so thou vnderstande or beleue therin nothing to the contrary HR As how CAT. No corruptiblitee no passibilitee no necessitee nor any thing els to be therin y e apperteyneth by any occasion to the contrary For as these do naturally appertayne and belonge vnto the state of mortalitee so doeth their contraries supernaturally appertayne and belonge vnto the state of immortalitee Cap. 26. HERE Then me thinke by your sayinge that impassibilite doth appertayne to immortalitee so that they must needes go
other why as I sayde before can there be found in his so doinge but onely falshed For who wòulde take a mannes tale to witnesse where he speaketh but obscurely or incerteinly and vtterly refuse it there where he speaketh it full hole and plainly any man els but onely Frithe and such as he was for the plaine place he wilt well he could nother ouerthrow nor yet wrynge it to anye apparence of his purpose But the obscure and ambiguous place he thought he might wrest whiche waie he liste and so to make many beleue as he did in deede that it sufficientlye serued his turne HERE Yet ye confesse that place of Saint Austen whiche Frythe dooth alledge to be obscure and ambiguous CATH Ye to them that lacketh good wyll or knowledge But not to them as I sayde whiche be learned and of the catholyke sayth Wherefore thus maiest thou see Why Frith alledged that place of Saint Austen and not this so craftylie as he dyd Whiche was no more but onely because when he saw there was made therein no speciall mencion by name of the reall eatynge whiche is moste common and generall nor yet of the spyrytuall eatynge whiche is more singuler and specyall but of eatynge symplie without anie dyrecte or proper distinction he thought he myght vnderstande of them bothe whiche he lyst or els take it as thoughe there had bene none other maner of eatynge thereof but euen verie one alone And thereuppon he did take that place to be no lesse then enoughe and very sufficient to proue his purpose As I graunt it had beene in deede if it had beene after that sorte to be vnderstande as he tooke it But he looked so muche vpon this poynte that he founde there no mencion made of anie dystynction of eatynges whereby he thought he myght take as I sayde whyche he lyste or one for all that he forgat what mencion Saynt Austen made there of the distynctyon although not of eatynges yet for all that of eaters whiche was enoughe to show what maner of eatynge he mente For as his manifest speakynge was there of a peculiar sorte of eaters so his very meanynge muste needes be vnderstande of a peculiar maner a eatynge For it is agaynst all reason and trewthe to denye that to some whiche is common to all or to graunte that to all which perteyneth but to some And therfore thou maist well know that Saint Austen wolde not do so For he denyed not there but onely that eatynge whiche apperteyneth vnto some and not vnto all That is to say only to them that be good and not vnto them that he nought Of whom there he dooth make mecion and of none other For the libertee real of eating perteyneth both to good and bad But the spirituall eatyng perteyneth to none but onely to them that be good Cap. 39. HERE Sir Saint Austen maketh no suche distinction or difference betwene reall and spiritual eatyng nor betwene generall and speciall eating as ye speake of CATH Why saiest thou so for although he doth it not euen in those maner of woordes with suche conference of both together as thou woldest haue yet he doth it in deede for all that as it doth right well appere vpon the syxt of Saint Iohn Tracta 27. where his woordes be these Hoc totum quod dominus de carne de sanguine suo loquutus est Et quod in eius distributionis gratia vitam nobis promisit aeternam Et quod hinc voluit intelligi manducatores carnis sanguinis sui vt in illo maneant ipse in illis Et quod non intellexerunt qui non crediderunt Et quod spiritualia carnaliter sapiendo scandalizati sunt Et quod eis scandalizatis pereuntibus consolatio domini affuit discipulis qui remanserant ad quos probandos interrogauit Nunquid vos vultis ire vt responsio permāsionis eorum innotseceret nobis nam ille nouerat qui manebant Hocergo totum ad hoc nobis valet DILECTISSIMI vt carnem Christi sanguinem Christi non edamus tantum in sacramento quod multi mali sed vsque ad spiritus perticipationem manducemus bibamus Vt in domini corpore tanquam membra maneamus vt eius spiritu vegetemur non scandalizemur etiamsi multi modo nobiscum manducant bibunt temporaliter sacramenta qui habebunt in fine aeterna tormenta That is to say All this that our lorde spake of his fleshe and his blood And that in the grace of distribucion therof he promised vnto vs lyfe euerlastynge and that therof he wolde to be vnderstande that the eaters and drinkers of his fleshe and blood should abyde in him and he in them And that they did not vnderstande whiche did not beleue And that they were offended by vnderstandynge spirituall thinges carnally And that they beyng offended and perylshynge the comforte of our lorde was present to the disciples which did abide vnto the probacion of whom he asked wil you go away that the answere of their abiding might be also knowen to vs for he knew them whiche did abide All this therefore most deerely beloued auayleth vnto vs for this purpose that we shoulde not eate the fleshe of Christe and the blood of Christe onely in the sacramente whiche many doth that be nought but that we shoulde eate and drynke it vnto the part taking of the spirite that wee shoulde abyde as membres in the body of our Lorde that we might be quickned with his spirite And that we should not be offended although many now dooth eate and drynke the sacramentes with vs temporally whiche shall haue in thende tormentes eternall Now what canst thou wishe more plainely spoken for the reall eatynge and drynkynge of Christes most precious fleshe and blood in the holy sacramente then when he sayth as here thou seest we eate it not onely in the sacrament that same not onely in the sacramente dooth moste cleerely declare it to be therin euen verely eaten for he wolde not haue said not onely in the sacrament but not in the sacrament For not in the sacrament and not onely in the sacrament are two thinges Not in the sacrament denyeth it to bee eaten therein but not onely in the sacrament confesseth it to bee eaten therein and also other wise to Wherefore this very reall eatinge of Christes blessed flesh and blood in the holy sacrament must nedes be common and generall when as here S. Austen saith many doth it which be nought whose eating therof thou maiest well know commeth not to the perticipacion or partaking of the spirite that quickneth when those be they that abyde not in Christe nor Christe in them And therefore the participacion or partakynge of the spirite therin is and must needes be the spirituall eatynge whiche is not generall but speciall and proper onely to those that abyde in Christ and Christ in them as the noughty and euill sorte dooth not And
this offend you what will ye say then when ye shall see the sonne of man ascendynge thither where he was before Then addeth S. Austen saithe he you shall know that he ment not to geue his fleshe to eate with your teeth for he shall ascende hole And Christe addeth it is the spiryte that quickneth The flesshe profyteth nothynge The woordes that I spake are sprite and lyfe That is to say saith Sainte Austen are spiritually to bee vnderstande And where Christe saith that the fleshe profyteth nothyng meanynge of his owne fleshe as saynt Austen saith he meaneth that it profiteth not as they vnderstode him That is to say it profiteth not if it were eaten Now here ye may see how Frith hath plainely proued both by the woordes of Christe and also by Saynt Austen vpon the same that all this matter lyeth in a spirituall sense and must bee vnderstande spiritually CATHOLI Frith hath not proued that so plainely as he hath herein proued him selfe a false lyar once againe For vnder the colour of his allegacion of Christe and Saynt Austen together he hath herein wrapped no small pece of his owne hereticall falshed to deface the trewth of them both For of those woords of Christe the flesshe profiteth nothynge when Saint Austen saith it profiteth not as they vnderstode him where did this antichrist fynde this exposicion which he addeth vnto it saiyng It profiteth not if it weare eaten S. Austen hath no suche thynge nor Christe nother And yet as though they had this crafty and false Raynarde doth annex it vnto their saiynges to make it seme to be their meanynges HERE And will you call him an antechriste therefore CATH What should I call him els For who can be more contrary to Christ herein then he is for Christ saith Except ye eate it ye shall not haue life in you And he sayth If ye eate it it shall not profite you HERE Tushe those be not Frithes woordes For he saith It profiteth not if it were eaten CATH And what is that but if ye eate if it shall not profite you is it not all one Therefore is there any thynge more agaynst Christes saiynge then that when Christe saieth Except ye eate it ye shall not haue life in you Doth lyfe not profyte and specially euerlastynge lyfe whiche Christe doth meane and promise that we shall not haue it except we eate his fleshe And yet this antechrist saith it shall not profyte vs if we eate it Therefore whiche of these two are we best to beleue Christe or this his wicked aduersary for both we can not allow they be so contrary HERE They be not so contrary as ye take them For all Christes meaninge as it apereth by his owne woords is of spirituall eatyng by feyth and not of carnall eating with the teth And that doth Frith defend and nothynge els as it apereth in the .44 lefe of his boke where his wordê be these If Christe had sayth he so ment that his owne bodie naturall should haue continued in the sacrament whiche is the meate of the soule thorow feyth and not of the body by eatynge of it and maie as well be eaten thorow feyth although it remayne in heauen as if it were here present to our mouthes if he had I saie so ment then wold he neuer haue geuen vs suche scriptures as he did for I say that this grosse imaginacion may not stande with the processe of the scripture whiche is receiued as it shall appere by certeine textes First where our sauiour saith The flesshe profiteth nothyng The waight of those words doth compell vs to vnderstande our matter spiritually For by this shorte sentence we are no lesse plucked backe from the carnall eatyng then was Nichodemus that he should not once dreame of the carnall regeneracion when Christe saide vnto him That what so euer was of the fleshe was fleshe And also againe in the .47 leafe Frith hath accordyng to the same euen these woordes It is impossible saith he the scriptures standyng as they dooe that the naturall body of Christe shoulde be presente to our teeth in the sacramente And as for our faith it neadeth not to haue hym present in the bread For I maie as well eate him and drynke him thorow faith That is to say beleue in him as though he were as present in the sacrament as he was hangynge on the Crosse In this ye see Fryth dothe expresse his mynde so playnly that no man can doubt of his meanynge therein Whiche in effect resteth but in two pointes wherof the one is That christes very bodie fleshe and blood hath no verie beeynge nor reall presence in the sacrament And the other is that what so euer Christe spake as towchynge the eatynge therof must nedes be vnderstande onely spirituall And these two hath he proued by the woordes of Christe and also by S. Austen to CATH What wilt thou be at that poynt yet for all that thou hast hytherto herde already thou plaiest the very FrithiaÌ„ now in dede to say that he hath proued both when he hath proued in dede none of the both by any thynge that we haue harde of him yet But thou hast herde profe enough to the contrary if that wolde serue And therfore what so euer he hath brought for his profe hytherto hath other made directly agaynst him or els vtterly nothynge for him Therefore speake of no profe that he maketh for he maketh none in dede HERE Yes syr for he hath proued that it must be vnderstande spiritually And therof it must nedes folowe that it maie not be vnderstande carnally for they be two contraries And therefore where there maie be no carnall vnderstandynge there can be no flesshe remaynynge Wherefore thus hath Fryth his purpose thorowly that is to say that the fleshe profiteth not to be eaten and that by reason of the spirituall vnderstandinge wherof he is most assured both by christs woordes as I sayde and Saynt Austens also CATHOLI Then if he were so assured he coulde not be therein deceiued HERE No more he was CATH Trowest thou so HERE I thinke so HE. Why thou maist perceiue by thine owne reason and also by this which I told the before that although it must be vnderstand spiritually yet it foloweth not that it must be vnderstaÌ„d only spiritually For spiritually as I said and onely spiritually is two thinges Therfore if Frith take it to be vnderstande onely spiritually without any other or farther respect then he taketh it otherwyse then he hath or is able to proue it by the woordes of Christe or Saint Austens other Againe of the other syde if he take it to be vnderstande spiritually and not onely so Then hath he proued therin so muche for his purpose as is in deede euen nothyng at all HERE Why syr it is profe enoughe for him that he is by Saint Austen moste certayne and sure as he hath declared that it must be vnderstande spiritually CATH What although it
we to hate science God forbyd And what is science puffeth vp alone without charitee Therfore he ioyneth to it But yet charitee doeth edifie Adde therefore charitee to science and science is profitable not by it selfe but by charytee Also now lykewyse the fleshe profiteth nothinge beinge fleshe a lone Let the spirite come to the fleshe as charitee commeth to science and it profiteth very muche And a littell after he speakynge in the parson of Chryste knitteth vp hys exposicion of thys texte wyth these wordes So I geue not my fleshe to eate as they did vnderstand fleshe Wherof it foloweth say I that otherwise he did geue it to eate although he did it not so For the wordes import no lesse Therfore here thou mayste parceyue why Frith brought not forth this place or exposition of Saint Austen as he doeth the texte wherevpon he goeth Whiche was in deede because he lyked not Saynt Austen so well in other places but he liked hym as euyll in this for all his false bostinge that he maketh so muche for his purpose Where as in deede he maketh for him in no place but directlie agaynst hym in many places as it hath and hereafter shall right well appere Wherefore in all this thou seest Saynt Austen taketh not the spirituall sence so that he excludeth the whole vnderstandynge of all fleshe therein HERE Syr Saynt Austen commeth not to that yet For vnto this text that is to say It is the spirite that quickeneth the fleshe profiteth nothinge Frithe doeth adde the wordes of Christ folowing with Saynt Austens mynde vpon the same whiche wordes are these The wordes that I spake vnto you are spirite and life That is to say sayeth Saynt Austen are spiritually to be vnderstande Here is the hoole matter come now euen clerely to light bothe by Christe and Saynt Austen to And what wolde you haue more CATH This exposition of S. Austens whiche thou speakest of now is very shorte And more shorte then he is wonte to make vpon so great a matter And therefore coulde Frith finde no more of it but this HERE Yes syr sumwhat more which will lyke you lesse if ye heare it CATH It were strainge that I should mislike any of Saynt Austens doinges in suche matters And therefore what so euer it be I pray thee let me heare it HERE That shall ye do For Frithe in the .45 leafe of his booke hath these wordes This is a playne conclusion sayeth he that when Christe sayde the fleshe profiteth nothinge he ment it euen of his owne fleshe that it coulde not profit as they vnderstode hym to be eaten with the teethe Albe it it dothe muche profit to be slayne for our redemption and eaten thorough fayth Whiche thinge we may do althoughe his naturall fleshe be not in the Sacrament For I may as wel beleue in hym thoughe he be in heauen as if he were in earthe and in the Sacrament and before myne eyes And that Christe spake these wordes of his owne body it is playne by Saynt Austens wordes writing vpon the same place And therefore he sayeth that they must be vnderstande spyrytually and addeth if thou vnderstande them spyritually they are spirite and life And thoughe thou vnderstand them carnally yet neuerthelesse they are spirit life But vnto thee they are not spirit life which vnderstandest not spiritually those thinges that I haue spoken Here you may see now that Frithe hath more of Saint Austens exposition then I tolde you of before CATH Ye but vpon what wordes of Christ doeth Saynt Austen make this exposition which Frithe doeth here alledge HERE Vpon these that Christe sayeth my wordes are spirit and life CATH Thou sayest euen very trew And therfore where thou tellest me that I may here see now that Frithe hathe more of Saynt Austens exposition then thou diddest tell me of before I say vnto thee agayne that thou mayest here see yf thou marke it well that vpon these wordes of christe The fleshe profiteth nothinge Frith doth bring in that exposition of S. Austens which Saint Austen maketh vpon this sayinge of Christe The wordê which I haue spoken vnto you ar spirit life And the proper exposition that Saynt Austen maketh vpon these wordes The fleshe profiteth nothynge Which exposition I recited vnto thee right now my self he doth cleane omit and dissemble as though there were no suche matter at all Therfore wilt thou not see what a parte he playeth herein Thus to applie a mans exposition of one text to an other and his proper exposition of that other cleane omit dissemble and will not be knowne of it Hast thou seen a more manifest falshed at any mans hande Cap. 20. HERE Syr the macter is not so great as ye make it For when Christ saith my wordes are spirit and life he meaneth those wordes whiche he spake at that tyme amonge whiche were euen these The fleshe profyteth nothynge Therefore they be of the wordes which he meaneth to be spirit and life That is to say spiritually as S. Austen sayth to be vnderstand Wherfore these wordes of saynt Austen spiritually to be vnderstande do as well serue and expounde this texte The fleshe profiteth nothynge As they do this text My wordes are spirit and life Whervpon they were as you say directly and purposely spoken CATH Ye but why doth not Frithe as Saynt Austen doth put eache of those textes with their owne proper and whole expositions by them selfes And then with conference made betwene them see what he coulde gather of them bothe together for his purpose HERE I can tell what your answere wolde be yf you were asked that question CATH What HERE Ye wolde say that he wolde not so do because that the one exposition wolde haue made as muche agaynst hym as the other semeth to make with him CATH What moneth thee to thinke that I wolde so say but euen the verie trewth therof for most trew it is that the one exposition soundeth no more of the spirit then the other doeth of the fleshe Whithe Frithe coulde in no wise away with all And therfore that made hym so redy to bringe forth that one which might seme to make for his purpose and not to be knowne of the other whiche maketh so muche agaynst him For all his purpose was in nothinge so muche as to exclude all the reall beyng of Christes very fleshe in the holy Sacrament For there he wolde haue nothing but very bread in a bare signification And therfore coulde he abide nothing that myght seme or sounde to the contrary But what so euer he coulde finde amonge the olde holy fathers to sounde or smacke of any spirituall vnderstandinge in the matter that did he catche and holde thinkinge vtterly thereby to proue his intente thorowly Neuer serchinge what they mente by it but alway tooke it and applied it to that he wente aboute whiche was as it dothe well appere nothinge els but falshed indeede And therefore it
proued there after For had he bene at the fyrste as redy to trie what the olde holy fathers ment by that spirituall vnderstandynge as he was rashe and readie to runne headlinge vpon hys owne dreamynge thereof without any good aduysement or dew consyderation or wolde haue referred the iudgement of his owne phansyes to the Holy Catholike churche as euery trew and good christen maÌ„ ought to do and as I For my part dayly pray God of his grace that I neuer do otherwise if he had I say this done it had neuer proued with him some other as it hath done whiche was but according to this old saying the hasty man lacketh neuer woo HERE Sir why do you account him rash and hasty herin when he taketh not the olde holy doctours but according to their owne sayinges CATH I do account him so because all sayinges are not alway so simple but that many of them oftentimes contayne and haue in eache of them diuerse vnderstandinges Or els there should not be as there is suche contention aboute there meaninges after that men hath vttered and putte forthe their bare sayinges Wherfore the faut of rashnes that I finde with Frithe is because he looked so muche vpon their sayingê that he passed nothing vpon their verie meaninges but to their sayinges he ioyned his own meaninges and thereby deceiued him self and many other moo HERE Why what other meaninge should he gather of this their saying a spiritual vnderstaÌ„dyng but a spiritual vnderstanding in deede And that he not only doeth but also defeÌ„deth as much as he can And therfore as I tolde you before where there is a spiritual vnderstandinge there can be no carnall vnderstandinge And where there can be no carnall vnderstanding there can be no very flesh remayning CATH Thou sayst so But how wil he or thou other proue y t there is in this matter no carnal vnderstanding or no flesh remayning HERE Because there is a spiritual vnderstanding CAT That foloweth not for I tolde thee diuerse times before that spirituall and only spirituall are two thinges for if it be not only spiritual then it may be both so and otherwise that is to say so in one respect and otherwyse in another respect Wherefore if it maie be both so and otherwyse where is Frithes purpose become then which resteth all together vpon only so and none otherwyse Therfore he must proue that it is onely mere spirituall and not onely that but also what a spirituall vnderstandynge is For without that all his hole talke is but vayne bablynge and nothyng els Cap. 21. HERE Well syr it is to late for him to dooe that nowe And therefore sith ye holde it so necessary to be done I pray you for the fruictful furderance of our talke herein declare you whether the vnderstanding of it be onely mere spirituall or not and what the spirituall vnderstandyng of it is CATH Then thou must first consider this that although some yet all and euery spirituall vnderstandynge doth not exclude and forbyd the vnderstandynge of all maner of flesshe as it doth when it is but onely and mere spirituall as some tyme it is and some tyme not For if thou take spirituall vnderstandynge so that is to saie to be alway of onely and mere spirituall thinges thou shalt not take anie body or fleshe within the compas of any spirituall vnderstandynge at all Wherefore if thou take it so that there may be no spirituall vnderstandyng of any fleshe thou takest it then euen directly against the holy Apostle Saint Paule wrytynge to the Corinthians of the generall resurrection and describinge the difference of the state of the body before and after where he saythe It is sowne a naturall body and it shall ryse a spirituall body There is a naturall body And there is a spirituall body And a little after he saith also That is not first whiche is spirituall but that whiche is naturall And then that whiche is spirituall Here thou maiest see by the holy apostle if thou trust him that some bodye is and mo shalbe spirituall at length And a spirituall body can not be trewly vnderstande but at the least in some respect spyrytually Except thou wilt say it maie be otherwyse vnderstande then it is which is no perfyte good and trew vnderstandyng in dede Therefore this doth not folow as Frith wolde haue it that where is a spirituall vnderstandynge there is no fleshe But this doothe well folowe that where there is spirituall fleshe there the vnderstandynge must needes be spirituall not therin deniyng the veritee of the fleshe but declaring the state and condicion therof Yet this spirituall vnderstanding is not al onely and mere spirituall because it is not dyrectly and only of a spirite but of a certaine perfite and very fleshe whiche is spirituall and not a spirite but spirituall for that it is aduaunced so nere the perfection of the spirite whereunto it is knit and therby made spirituall as of the contrarie parte the minde of some man is made carnall and fleshly not because it is fleshe-but because it is so addict vnto the fleshe that it is become subiect vnto the vitious desires or inclinacioÌ„ therof And therfore called as it is in dede fleshely For of such a man we saie he is a man of a fleshly mynde yet his minde is not fleshe for all that Wherfore as the spirite of that man is fleshly and no fleshe so is the fleshe of the other spirituall and no spirite And for that it is spirituall it must be spiritually vnderstande And that can it not trewly be without the spirite by whiche it is made spirituall And therfore the woordes whiche are spoken of that fleshe are called spyrite and lyfe that is to say spiritually to be vnderstande For without that spyryte the fleshe profyteth nothyng Wherwith they were trewly answered whiche toke it otherwyse that is to say without the spyryte As it apereth by the words of Saint Austen recited before Cap. 22. HERE Yet it wyll not synke in to my head but that if this spirituall vnderstandyng of fleshe be of fleshe that is verye flesshe in deede it must nedes haue also then a fleshly vnderstanding with all Because it semeth more agreable to the thinge then the spirituall vnderstandynge of it dothe For what maketh vnderstandinge carnall or fleshelie but fleshe or howe can fleshe bee not fleshely vnderstande when vnderstanding must needes be after and accordinge to the thing that is vnderstande CA. Herein thou art as frith was wonderfully deceiued For he did as thou dost put no difference Inter carnem carnalem That is to say betwene fleshe and fleshly or fleshy when the one hath respecte to the substaunce of fleshe and the other to the naturall qualitees disposicions propertees and vsage thereof or thereunto belonginge And therefore when the flesshe is vnderstande after anye of them then the vnderstandynge of it is carnall and fleshely For those naturall qualitees propertees
and disposicions of fleshe is it that maketh the vnderstandinge of it carnall and fleshelye and not the substaunce it selfe as it maie well appere not onely By Saint Paule but also by Saint Austen vpon the same sixt chapiter of Saint Iohn where his woordes be these Qui aderant plures non intelligendo scandalizati sunt Non enim cogitabant haec audiendo nisi carnem quod ipsi erant Apostolus autem dicit Et vae rum dicit sapere secundum carnem Mors est Carnem dat nobis suam dominus manducare sapere secundum carnem mors est cum de carne sua dicat quia ibi est vita aeterna Ergo nec carnem debemus sapere secundum carnem Whiche maie thus be englished Many of them that were present not vnderstandyng the matter were offended For in hearynge these thinges they did not imagine but the fleshe that they were themselues But the apostle saith and saith trew to vnderstande after the fleshe is death Our lorde gaue vnto vs his fleshe in eate and to vnderstande after the fleshe is death when he saide of his owne flesshe that there is euerlastynge lyfe Therefore we ought not to vnderstande fleshe after the fleshe Here thou mayest see a manifest difference of vnderstandynge betwene fleshe and after the fleshe and therfore how saist thou to it now HERE I say that S. Austen saith here very well For what meaneth he by this that we ought not to vnderstande the fleshe after the fleshe but that we ought to vnderstande it after some other thing whiche is here ment by the flesheand not the fleshe it selfe CATH I woulde not haue thought the so foolishe as to take it so for this as is though it were all one to saie we ought not to vnderstande the fleshe after the fleshe and to saie we ought not therein to vnderstande any fleshe at all when the saiyng forbyddeth vs not the vnderstanding of the fleshe it selfe but the vnderstandynge of it after the common course and naturall disposicion thereof It forbyddeth vs to vnderstande it as nature here daiely doth vse it and at length shall lese it but not as the spirite shall at length againe obteine it The spirite of man it selfe is nowe in this lyfe muche after the fleshe here but the fleshe in the next lyfe shalbe after the spirite there After the fleshe here hath no place nor being there And that ought we to consider here For the fleshe is one thinge and after the fleshe is an other Wherfore although in the course of nature they go here both together yet in this matter our vnderstandinge must plucke them a sonder or els thou shalte vnderstande fleshe after the fleshe whiche is death as thou hast harde before and more playnely doth appere by the manifest woordes of thapostle againe in an other place where he saith Et si cognouimus secundum carnem Christum sed nunc iam non nouimus That is to say Although we haue knowne Christe after the fleshe yet we dooe not so now What do we then know we now no fleshe in Christ God forbyd for we know it in dede but not after the fleshe What is after the fleshe Necessitee passibilitee corruptibilitee mortalitee and such other These were once knowen in Christe And his fleshe then knowen after them But so it nother is nor ought to be known now And therfore not after the fleshe and yet fleshe in dede for all that although not fleshly fleshe which onely maketh fleshely vnderstandyng But spiritual fleshe which maketh the vnderstandynge spirituall For as thapostle saith There is a naturall body and there is a spirituall bodie And what is that to saie but there is a naturall fleshe and there is a spirituall fleshe That he saith is not first which is spirituall But that whiche is naturall And then that whiche is spyrituall These two states of fleshe thou maiest know by reason can not haue lyke vnderstandynge Wherefore by this it maie well appere that the spirituall vnderstandinge of this matter wherupon Frith doth ground him selfe and yet vnderstode it not is not euen onely and mere spirituall as he doth take it excludynge all maner of fleshe But spirituall of spirituall fleshe whiche Frithes vnderstandynge did neuer touche nor once dreame vpon HERE That is your pleasure so to say CATH No it shall not be onely my saiynge but as in the .17 leafe of his booke it maie be partly perceiued by his owne saiyng which is this As touchinge the other woordes saith he that Christe spake vnto his disciples at the last supper I deny not but that he sayde so but that he so fleshlie ment as ye falsly feygne I vtterly deny Now marke what doth he meane by this whiche he laieth here so sore to our charges that we haue as he saith so falsely feygned of Chrystes meanynge HE. He meaneth your feygnynge to be this that Christ ment that his woordes concernynge his bodie spoken at his last supper shoulde be taken and vnderstande fleshlie whiche can not be CATH And meaneth he so HERE His woordes declare no lesse CATH Therfore by this it is cleere that his meanynge of our feynynge is euen like his vnderstandynge which is in deede both false and fleshly to For do we feyne that Christe spake those woordes of his blessed body with a fleshely meaning Where findeth he that we feyne that as here he lusteth so to lie For we do not only not feine it but vtterly deny it constantly affirmynge and faithfully teachinge that therin Christe ment in deede very fleshe but yet not as this fleshe monger lieth fleshly fleshe for all that How be it euen fleshely fleshe it is which Frith dreameth vppon and none other And that deceaueth him altogether For commonly where so euer he maketh mencion of Christes bodie his fleshe and eatynge therof he doth not call it but a naturall bodie naturall fleshe and the eatynge thereof carnall eatynge eatyng with the mouth teeth and belly and suche other talke concernynge the same as smelleth not but euen altogether fleshely and nothynge els as it appereth in the .44 and .45 leafe of his booke and many other places therein besyde when as I tolde thee before betwene fleshe and fleshely there is as great difference whiche Fryth did nothynge consider And therfore it is no wonder although he came neuer at the spyrituall vnderstandyng of the matter beyng so fleshelie phantasied as his owne talke therein doth plainely declare that he was Wherfore in him are well verified these woordes of thapostle saiyng Animalis homo non percipit ea quae sunt Spiritus dei stultitia enim est illi non potest intelligere quia spiritualiter examinatur Spiritualis autem iudicat omnia Whiche maie thus be Englished The fleshly man vndestandeth not those thinges whiche are of the spirite of god For they are foolishnes to him because he can not vnderstande that they are spiritually to be examined But the spirituall man
iudgeth all That is to say The spirituall man iudgeth all bothe spirituall and carnall But so can not the fleshly man whose reache passeth not the common course of naturall and fleshlie fleshe Wherfore it is no meruayle though this fleshly Fryth dothe falsly feygne our vnderstandyng to be but fleshely as his vnderstandynge was which could no farther then suche fleshe as he was of him selfe For in all his booke thou shalt not fynde one sparke of vnderstandynge that he had of any spirituall fleshe at all And therefore his thinkynge that our vnderstandinge of fleshe is none other then his was caused him in the .23 leafe of his boke to haue these woordes I wonder saith he that we haue bene led so longe in this grosse errour HERE So doeth many mo as well as he I maie saie to you Cap. 23. CATHOLI Ye but what grosse errour is it whiche he noteth vs here to be led in so long HE. That ye beleue christs very natural body and his naturall fleshe to be presentely in the Sacrament And therein to haue suche carnall eatinge of it with toeth and belly as he maketh mention of in diuerse places of his booke CATH What if we wolde graunte him that it were a very grose erroure as he calleth it so to beleue HERE Then ye must other confesse your selues in a great faute for so beleuyng or els deny and say ye beleue it not CATH Let it so be that we beleue it not And what of that HERE Then is Frithe and you euen bothe at a poynte and of one opinion ther in CATH Nay not so For we beleue that therin is verie fleshe for all that But he beleueth that therin is vtterly none at all Therefore his opinion and ours are not bothe one HERE Then how can you beleue that therin is Christes very fleshe if ye beleue not that hys naturall bodie and naturall fleshe is in it CATH Well enough For if thy weake hedde coulde beare it I wolde deny that Christ hath any naturall body or naturall fleshe other HERE No not in the sacrament CATH No nor in heauen or any where els HERE What neuer speake it For then it must folowe that he hath no very body nor very flesh at al. CATH That is after Frithes learning For his wit was so yoked with the commen course of nature that his vnderstandinge coulde reache no farther And yet in his tyme I dare say he herde of this difference of thinges that some were naturall and some supernaturall Wherfore I deny not but that the blessed body and very fleshe of our Sauyour Christe was once naturall but not synce the tyme of hys resurrection For what is naturall but what so euer is vnder the yoke and lawes of nature as our bodies are and our flesh is And what thinges may we call supernaturall if that be not one of them whiche hath bene once naturall and now hath ouercome the power and strength of nature and hath gotten cleane out of the lawes and bondage therof wherefore yf thou say that there is no suche thinge then thou must needs graunte that the body and flesh of our Sauiour Christ hath euen now neede of eyer and brethe meate drinke slepe and suche other as without whiche no naturall body of man doeth or can be able to lyue and indure Except it be by myracle for a season as in parte it was wyth Moyses and Helyas by the space of .40 dayes Therefore if the body of Christ haue now neede of those thinges then it is passible and may suffer If it be passible and may suffer then it is mortall and may dye And that I am suer thou wilt not graunt Wherfore if it can not dye it is not mortall if it be not mortall it can not suffer If it cannot suffer it hath no neede of those thinges or any other like If it hathe no neede of any of those thinges what hathe nature to do with it when those be thynges which of necessite nature requereth Therfore if nature haue nothing to do with it how can it be natural That is not naturall whiche the course of nature hath nothinge to do with all Therfore why doth Frithe so often call it natural but because his vnderstanding of it was so carnal that he coulde see no sparke of the state of it whiche is spiritual He did not know that natural and carnal are no meete nor conuenient termes to be put to the expression of the holy fleshe of Chryste as they are not indede If a man should go to the very proper signification of the wordes Because therein they make no difference betwene the state of that fleshe and ours For ours is naturall and carnall And therefore to the declaring of hys flesh there should be put in the place of naturall supernatural And in the place of carnal spiritual as now the verites of the thinge doth most worthyly and dewly require For if it were alway vsed to be spoken of so it wolde perchance ease some weake myndes of many carnall and fleshly phantasies that runneth yet in their hed des aboute this matter as there did none other in Frithes hedde so longe as he lyued For as it appereth in dyuerse places of hys booke he tooke nature to be one of hys pryncipall groundes to proue his purpose by in thys case And therfore he that wyll go aboute to improue and disalowe that by nature whiche is supernaturall shall proue hym selfe I may saye to thee euen as Frythe did farre worse then a naturall foole Wherefore herein leaue thy dreamynge of what so euer is naturall and carnall and tourne it to that whyche is spirituall and supernaturall an other whyle Or els thou shall neuer haue trew perfit and constante faythe in this matter whyle thou lyuest For so longe as thy cogytation herein runneth or resteth vpon the common course of naturall fleshe thou shalt neuer be satisfied wyth any trewth that thou shalt gette and come by that waye Therefore remember and folow the holy Apostle in that he sayeth as I tolde thee before Although we haue knowne Christe after the flesh yet we do not so now for if therbe he sayth a naturall body there is also a spirituall body Now he it that is not fyrst whiche is spirituall but that whiche is naturall and afterwarde that whiche is spirituall Wherefore in this matter thou must forget naturall and fleshly fleshe and vnderstande or at the least haue in beleefe supernaturall and spirituall flesh And then thou shalt as Frithe did not trewly vnderstand the meaning of Christe where he sayeth The wordes whiche I haue spoken vnto you are spirite and lyfe For spirituall vnderstanding is not here as Frith did take it only and mere spiritual without all respect and being of any maner of fleshe at all Nor the carnall vnderstanding whiche he speaketh of and layeth here to our charges is none suche nother as he taketh it for He was farre deceyued
spirituall eatinge and the reall eatynge must needes go so together that the one can not be wythout the other CATHOLICVS That is not trew excepte it be in beleefe For therein they must needes go alway together But els so muche they dyffer and are some tyme a sonder that an infidele may chaunce to eate it really but yet for lacke of faythe neuer spiritually And a good Christen man may eate it spiritually althoughe thorow some lawfull impediment he eate it not reallie Wherefore by thys it is cleare that all the sort of you whyche denieth it as Frithe doeth to be eaten really without doubt do neuer eate it spiritually Wher in your tortuous and eluishe doctrine doeth most manifestly appere For ye holde wyth that whiche ye neuer do And vtterly deny that whiche ye dayly do HERE How so CATH Ye graunt and holde with the spirituall eatinge of Christes holy fleshe which eatinge without fayle ye neuer come to And ye stifly deny the reall eatinge of it which eatinge in deede ye often and commonly do And therfore when ye do that whiche your selues denie how is it done but vnworthyly and wherto tendeth that but as the Apostle sayeth to your owne dampnation but now I let that passe and to an other place of Saynt Austen where hys owne wordes be these Sicut audiuimus cum sanctum euangelium legeretur dominus Iesus Christus exortatus est promissione vitae aeternae ad manducandam carnem suam bibendum sanguinem suum Qui audistis haec non dum omnes intellexistis Qui enim baptizati fideles estis quid dix erit nostis Qui autem inter vos adhuc Cathecumini vel audientes vocantur potuerunt esse cum legeretur audientes nunquid intelligentes Ergo sermo noster ad vtrosque dirigitur Qui iam manducant carnem domini bibunt sanguinem eius cogitent quid manducent quid bibant ne sicut Apostolus dixit Iuditium sibi manducent bibant Qui autem non dum manducant non dum bibunt ad tales epulas inuitati festiment Per istos dies magistratus pascunt Christus quotidie pascit mensa ipsius est illa in medio constituta Quid causae est O audientes vt mensam videatis ad epulas non accedatis Et forte modo cum euangelium legeretur dixistis in cordibus vestris putamus quid est quod dicit Caro mea vere esca est sanguis meus vere potus est Quomodo manducatur caro domini bibitur sanguis domini Putamus quid dicit Quis contra te clausit vt hoc nescias Velatum est Sed si volueris erit reuelatum Accede ad professionem soluisti quaestionem Quid enim dixerit dominus IESVS iam fideles nouerunt Tu autem Cathecuminus diceris Audiens surdus es Aures enim corporis patentes habes quia verba quae dicta sunt au dis Sed aures cordis adhuc clausas habes quia quod dictum est non intelligis Whiche may thus be Englished When the holy gospell was red as wee haue herde our Lorde Iesus exhorted vs to the eatinge of his fleshe and drinkinge of hys bloud with the promyse of euerlasting lyfe You whyche haue hearde these thynges do not yet all vnderstande them For you whiche are baptized and are faythfull doeth knowe what he sayde But those amonge you whiche are yet called Cathecumini or hearers may be hearers but therein vnderstanders thynke you Therefore our sermon is directed vnto bothe Nowe those whyche doeth eate the fleshe of our Lorde and drynke hys bloud lette them take heede what they eate and what they drynke leaste as the Apostle sayeth they eate and drinke it to theyr owne dampnation But let them whiche doeth not yet eate nor yet drynke beynge inuited make haste vnto suche dayntes For in these dayes magistrates doeth eate Chryst doeth dayly feede That table of his is set in the middes What is the cause O ye herers that ye see the table and come not to the delicates perchaunce now when the gospell was redde you sayde in your hartes perceiue wee what it is that he saith my fleshe is verely meate and my blood is verily drynke how is the fleshe of the lorde eaten and the blood of the lorde dronken perceiue we what he saith who hath hid it from the that thou knowest it not hid it is But if thou wilt it shall be opened Come to the profession and thou hast solued the question For those that be now faithfull knowth what our lord Iesus sayd But thou art called an herer and yet in heryng thou arte deaffe For thou hast the eares of the body open because thou herest the woordes whiche are spoken But thou hast the eares of the hart yet shut because thou vnderstandest not that whiche is said Now meaneth Saint Austen here nothyng els by all these playne words of eatyng and drynkyng of Christes holy fleshe and blood but onely faith and beleefe which only Frith doth call the spirituall eatyng and drynking thereof saiyng there is none other but that Therfore is it onely that eatyng and drinkyng whereunto Saint Austen doth here inuite those which he calleth Cathecumini or heres who hath feith as he sayd before and doth beleue in the name of Christe all ready and beareth his crosse in their forheades is it also that eatyng and drynkyng that is to say onely faith and beleefe Wherevnto he doth here inuite them with the name and promise of deinties and delicates set vpon the table the name of the table deintes or delicates pretēdeth declareth an other maner of eatynge and drynkynge then is onely feith and beleefe if thou loke well vpon it moreouer is only faith and belefe that same eating and drinking which as he saith our sauiour Christe doth exhort vs vnto with the promise of euerlastyng lyfe when the Cathecuminus as he doth also declare hath faith and doth beleue in the name of Christ and yet cummeth not to this eating and drinking that Saint Austen speaketh of Is it not also that eating and drinking that is to say only faith and belefe wherof he saith let them whiche doth eate the fleshe of our lord and drinke his blood take hede what they eate what they drinke lest as thapostle saith they eate it and drinke it to their own damnacion He saith not how they eate how they drinke but what they eate what they drinke And what meaneth he by that same what very bread in a bare significacion as Frith doth take it did not those Cathecumini or herers take it so whom S. Austen doth reprehēd wherfore did he blame them but because they beleued therin to be nothing els but only that wherin they were deceiued to How be it after Frithes vnderstandyng it is all one to say let them take bede what they eate and what they drynke and to say let them take