the Donatists in whome you exeÌ„plify did by affirming that the true Church had perished and therefore they cannot be cleared from Schisme if you may be their Iudge Consider I pray you how many prime Protestants both domesticall and forraine you haue at one blow strucke off from hope of Saluation and condemned to the lowest pit for the grieuous sinne of Schisme And withall it imports you to consider that you also inuolue your selfe and other moderate Protestants in the selfe same crime and punishment while you communicate with those who according to your owne principles are properly and formally Schismatiques For if you held your selfe obliged vnder paine of damnation to forsake the Communion of the Roman Church by reason of her Errors and Corruptions which yet you confesse were not fundamentall shall it not be much more damnable for you to liue in Communion and Confraternity with those who defend an errour of the fayling of the Church which in the Donatists you confesse (i) pag. 12â— to haue been properly hereticall against the Article of our Creed I belieue the Church And I desire the Reader heer to apply an authority of S. Cyprian ep 76. which he shall find alledged in the next number And this may suffice for confutation of the aforesaid Answere as it might haue relation to the rigid Caluinists 17. For Confutation of those Protestants who hold that the Church of Christ had alwayes a being and cannot erre in points fundamentall and yet teach that she may erre in matters of lesse moment wherin if they forsake her they would be accounted not to leaue the Church but only her corruptions I must say that they change the state of our present Question not distinguishing between internall Fayth and externall Communion nor between Schisme and Heresy This I demonstrate out of D. Potter himselfe who in expresse words teacheth that the promises which our Lord hath made (k) pa. 151. vnto his Church for his assistance are intended not to any particular Persons or Churches but only to the Church Catholique and they are to be extended not to euery parcel or particularity of truth but only to points of Faith or fundamentall And afterwards speaking of the Vniuersall Church he sayth It 's comfort (l) pag. 155. inough for the Church that the Lord in mercy will secure her from all capitall dangers and conserue her on earth against all enemies but she may not hope to triumph ouer all sinne and errour till she be in heauâ—n Out of which words I obserue that according to D. Potter the selfe same Church which is the Vniuersall Church remayning the vniuersall true Church of Christ may fall into errors and corruptions from whence it cleerely followeth that it is impossible to leaue the Externall communion of the Church so corrupted and retaine externall communion with the Catholique Church since the Church Catholique and the Church so corrupted is the selfe same one Church or company of men And the contrary imagination talkes in a dreame as if the errors and infections of the Catholique Church were not inherent in her but were separate from her like to Accidents without any Subiect or rather indeed as if they were not Accidents but Hypostases or Persons subsisting by themselues For men cannot be said to liue in or out of the Communion of any dead creature but with Persons endued with life and reason and much lesse can men be said to liue in the Communion of Accidents as errors and corruptions are and therfore it is an absurd thing to affirme that Protestants diuided theÌ„selues from the corruptions of the Church but not from the Church herselfe seing the corruptions of the Church were inherent in the Church All this is made more cleere if we consider that when Luther appeared there were not two distinct visible true Catholique Churches holding contrary Doctrines and diuided in externall Communion one of the which two Churches did triumph ouer all error and corruption in doctrine and practise but the other was stained with both For to faigne this diuersity of two Churches cannot stand with record of histories which are silent of any such matter It is against D. Potters owne grounds that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall which were not true if you will imagine a certaine visible Catholique Church free from error euen in points not fundamentall It contradicteth the words in which he said the Church may not hope to triumph ouer all error till she be in heauen It euacuateth the brag of Protestants that Luther reformed the whole Church and lastly it maketh Luther a Schismatique for leauing the CoÌ„munion of all visible Churches seeing vpon this supposition there was a visible Church of Christ free from al corruption which therefore could not be forsaken without iust imputation of Schisme We must therefore truly affirme that since there was but one visible Church of Christ which was truly Catholique and yet was according to Protestants stained with corruption when Luther left the external CoÌ„munion of that corrupted Church he could not remaine in the Communion of the Catholique Church no more then it is possible to keep company with Christopher Potter and not keepe company with the Prouost of Queenes Colledge in Oxford if D. Potter and the Prouost be one and the selfe same man For so one should be and not be with him at the same time This very argument drawne from the Vnity of God's Church S. Cyprian v rgeth to conuince that Nouatianus was cut off from the Church in these words The Church is (m) Epist. 16. ad Mag. One which being One cannot be both within and without If she be with Nouatianus she was not with Cornelius But if she were with cornelius who succeeded Fabianus by lawfull ordination Nouatianus is not in the Church I purposely heere speak only of externall CoÌ„munion with the Catholique Church For in this point there is great difference between internall acts of our Vnderstanding and will and of externall deeds Our Vnderstanding and Will are faculties as Philosophers speake abstractiue and able to distinguish and as it were to part things though in themselues they be really conioyned But reall externall deeds do take things in grosse as they find them not separating things which in reality are ioyned together Thus one may consider and loue a sinner as he is a man frieÌ„d benefactor or the like and at the same time not consider him nor loue him as he is a sinner because these are acts of our Vnderstanding and Will which may respect their obiects vnder some one formality or consideration without reference to other things contained in the selfe same obiects But if one should strike or kill a sinnefull man he will not be excused by alledging that he killed him not as a man but as a sinner because the selfe same person being a man and the sinner the externall act of murder fell iointly vpon the man the sinner And
we grant that it is not alwayes easy to determine in particuler occasions whether this or that doctrine be such Because it may be doubtfull whether it be against any Scripture or diuine Tradition or Definition of the Church and much more whether the person be an Heretique which requireth certaine conditions as Capacity Pertinacy sufficient Proposition c. which are not alwayes so easily explicated and discerned and for these respects S. Augustine in the place cited (b) Pag. 102. by you had good reason to say That it is hard to know what makes an Heretique But it is strange that you should hold it to be so hard a matter to giue a generall definition of Heresy or Heretique since in this very Section you dispatch it quickly saying He is iustly (c) Pag. 98. esteemed an Heretique who yields not to Scripture sufficiently propounded Or as you say else where It is fundamentall (d) Pag. 250. to a Christians Fayth and necessary for his saluation that he belieue all reuealed Truths of God wherof he may be conuinced that they are from God Nay if you will speake with coherence to your owne grounds it is easy for you to define in all particular cases what is damnable Heresy for you I say who measure all Heresy by opposition to Scripture and further affirme that Scripture is cleere in all fundamentall points For by this meanes it will be easy for you to discerne what error opposeth those fundamental Truths which are cleerly contained in Scripture 4. In your discourse concerning the Controuersy between Pope Stephen and S. Cyprian you shew a great deale of passion against the Roman Church which you impugne out of an Epistle of Firmilianus who at that time was a party against the Pope and who in particuler did afterward recant togeather with the other Bishops who once ioyned with S. Cyprian as we haue already shewed out of S. Hierome may be also seen in an Epistle of Dionysius Alexandrinus apud Eusch hist. l. 6. c. 7. wherin Firmilianus in particular is named therfore you are inexcusable who say they persisted in their opinion wheras the proceeding of S. Stephen was necessary to preuent a pernicious error of rebaptizing of such as had been baptized by Heretiques which afterward was condemned by the whole Church And as for S. Cyprians mild proceeding which you so much commend out of your ill will to S. Stephen because he was Pope S. Augustine saith The things which (e) De Bapt. cont Donat. lib. 5. cap. 25. Cyprian in anger hath spread against Stephen I will not suffer to passe vnder my pen. Wherfore you could not haue picked out an example more in fauour of Popes then this And you must giue vs leaue not to credit what you say That both Stephen and Cyprian erred in some sense For Stephen only affirmed that Baptisme was not inualide precisely because it is giuen by Heretiques as S. Cyprian affirmed it to be but yet if the Heretiques erred either in the Matter or Forme of Baptisme Stephen neuer affirmed such Baptisme to be valid which had been more then he granted euen to the Baptisme of Catholiques 5. Your Argument to proue that (f) Pag. 112. concerning our greater safety we dispute against you as the Donatists did against Catholiques I haue answered (g) Cap. 7. num 7. in the First Part. You would make men belieue that we are like the Donatists who washed Church wall and vestments of Catholiques broke their Chalices scraped their Altars c. But I pray you consider whether Chalices Vestments Palls or Corporals and Altars do expresse the Protestant Church of England Scotland Geneua Holland c. or the Church of Rome 6. You spend diuers pages in propounding Arguments for the opinion of M. Hooker and M. Morton That whersoeuer a company of men (h) Pag. 113. doe iointly professe the substance of Christian Religion which is fayth in Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and Sauiour of the world with submission to his doctrine in mynd and will there is a Church wherein Saluation may be had notwithstanding any corruption in ludgment or practise yea although it be of that nature that it seeme to fight with the very foundation and so haynous as that in respect thereof the people stayned with this corruption are worthy to be abhorred of all men and vnworthy to be called the Church of God But because these and such monstruous Assertions proceed from other errours which I haue already both cleerly and at large confuted to wit the Fallibility of the Church the Distinction of points fundamental and not fundamentall c. I referre you to those places and heere onely obserue into what precipices they fall who deny the vniuersall Infallibility of the Church And it is strange that you your selfe did not see the manifest contradictions inuolued in this wicked doctrine For how can it be a Church wherein Saluation may be had and yet be vnworthy to be called the Church of God How can that man haue fayth in Iesus Christ with submission to his doctrine in mind and will who is supposed to ioyne with his beliefe in Iesus Christ other errors sufficiently propounded to be repugnant against Gods word or Reuelation Can submission in mind or will or obseruation of his Commandments stand with actuall voluntary error against his word Is it not a prime Commandment to belieue Gods word Do not your selfe affirme that it is Infidelity to deny whatsoeuer is reuealed in Scripture How then can a Church be said to haue meanes for saluation and life wherin is wanting Fayth the first ground of saluation The Fathers sometimes called the Donatists Brethren by reason of their true Baptisme not for their possibility to be saued according as S. Augustine said to them The Sacraments of Christ (i) Epist 48. do not make thee an Heretique but thy wicked disagreement And Optatus sayth You cannot (k) Lib. 4◠but be our brethren whom the same Mother the Church hath begotten in the same bowels of Sacraments whom God our Father hath in the same manner receiued as adopted Children namely on his behalfe and for as much as concernes the vertue of Baptisme The Conclusion of your discourse may well beseeme the doctrine for which you bring it A learned man (l) Pag. 122. anciently was made a Bishop of the Catholique Church although he did professedly doubt of the last Resurrection of our bodies You might haue added that he would not belieue that the world should euer haue an end and further absolutely refused to be baptized And that he would not as the History recoūteth liue a single life as other Priests but that he would liue with a wife For Synesius who is the man you meane publiquely protested all these things and you are wise inough to take only what might seeme to serue your turne as this concerning the single liues of Priests did not because it sheweth that in those
Articles of the Creed into these generall heads That some belong to the Maiesty of the Godhead others to the Mistery of our Sauiour Christs Humane nature Which two generall obiects of faith the holy Ghost doth expresse and conioyne Ioan. 17. Haec est vita aterna c. This is life euerlasting that they know thee true GOD and whom thou hast sent IESVS CHRIST But it was not their meaning to giue vs as it were a course of Diuinity or a Catechisme or a particular Expression of all points of Faith leauing those things to be performed as occasion should require by their owne word or writing for their time and afterwards by their Successours in the Catholique Church Our question then is not whether the Creed be perfect as far as the end for which it was composed did require For we belieue are ready to giue our liues for this but only we deny that the Apostles did intend to comprize therin all particular points of beliefe necessary to saluation as euen by D. Potters owne (i) pag. 235.215 confession it doth not comprehend agenda or things belonging to practise as Sacraments Commandements the Acts of Hope and dutyes of Charity which we are obliged not only to practise but also to beliene by diuine infallible fayth Will he therefore inferre that the Creed is not perfect because it contaynes not all those necessary and fundamentall Obiects of fayth He will answere No because the Apostles intended only to expresse credenda thinges to be belieued not practised Let him therefore giue vs leaue to say that the Creed is perfect because it wanteth none of those Obiects of beliefe which were intended to be set downe as we explicated before 9. The second obseruation is that to satisfy our question what points in particuler beÌ„ fundamentall it will not be sufficient to alledg the Creed vnlesse it containe all such points eyther expressely immediatly or els in such manner that by euident and necessary consequence they may be deduced from Articles both cleerely and particulerly contayned therin For if the deduction be doubtfull we shal not be sure that such Conclusions be fundamental or if the Articles themselues which are sayd to be fundamentall be not distinctly and particulerly expressed they will not serue vs to know and distinguish all points fundamental from those which they call not fundamentall We doe not deny but that all points of fayth both fundamentall and not fundamentall may be said to be contained in the Creed in some sense as for example implicitely generally or in some such inuolued manner For when we explicitely belieue the Catholique Church we do implicitely belieue whatsoeuer she proposeth as belonging to faith Or else by way of reduction that is when we are once instructed in the beliefe of particular points of faith not expressed nor by necessary consequeÌ„ce deducible froÌ„ the Creed we may afterward by some analogy or proportion and resemblance reduce it to one or moe of those Articles which are explicitely contayned in the Symbole Thus S. Thomas the Cherubim among Deuines teacheth (l) 2. 23 q. â—â— art 8. ad 6. that the miraculous existence of our Blessed Sauiours body in the Eucharist as likewise all his other miracles are reduced to Gods Omnipotency expressed in the Creed And Doctor Potter sayth The Eucharist (m) pag. 2â—â— being a seale of that holy Vnion which we haue with Christ our head by his Spirit and Fayth and with the Saints his members by Charity is euidently included in the Communion of Saints But this reductiue way is farre from being sufficient to inferre out of the Articles of Gods Omnipotency or of the Communion of Saints that our Sauiours body is in the Eucharist and much lesse whether it be only in figure or els in reality by Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation c. and least of all whether or no these points be fundamentall And you hyperbolize in saying the Eucharist is euidently included in the Communion of Saints as if there could not haue been or was not a Communion of Saints before the Blessed Sacrament was instituted Yet it is true that after we know and belieue there is such a Sacrament we may referre it to some of those heads expressed in the Creed and yet so as S. Thomas referrs it to one Article and D. Potter to another and in respect of different analogies or effects it may be referred to seuerall Articles The like I say of other points of faith which may in some sort be reduced to the Creed but nothing to D. Potters purpose But contrarily it sheweth that your affirming such and such points to be fundamentall or not fundamentall is meerely arbitrary to serue your turne as necessity and your occasions may require Which was an old custome amongst Heretiques as we read in (n) De peccat Orig. cont Pelag. l. 2. cap. 22. S. Augustine Pelagius and Celestius desiring fraudulently to auoyde the hatefull name of Heresies affirmed that the question of Originall Sinne may be disputed without danger of fayth But this holy Father affirmes that it belongs to the foundation of fayth We may saith he endure a disputant who erres in other questions not yet diligently examined not yet diligently established by the whole authority of the Church their errour may be borne with but it must not passe so far as to attempt to shake the foundation of the Church We see S. Augustine places the being of a point fundamentall or not fundamentall in that it hath beene examined and established by the Church although the point of which he speaketh namely Originall Sinne be not contayned in the Creed 10. Out of that which hath beene sayd I inferre that Doctour Potters paines in alledging Catholique Doctours the ancient Fathers and the Councell of Trent to proue that the Creed containes all points of faith was needlesse since we grant it in manner aforesayd But Doctour Potter can not in his conscience belieue that Catholique Deuines or the Councell of Trent and the holy Fathers did intend that all points in particuler which we are obliged to belieue are contayned explicitely in the Creed he knowing well inough that all Catholiques hold themselues obliged to belieue all those points which the sayd Councell defines to be belieued vnder an Anathema and that all Christians belieue the commandments Sacraments c. which are not expressed in the Creed 11. Neither must this seeme strange For who is ignorant that Summaries Epitom'es the like briefe Abstracts are not intended to specify all particulars of that Science or Subiect to which they belong For as the Creed is said to containe all points of Fayth so the Decalogue comprehends all Articles as I may terme them which concerne Charity and good life and yet this cannot be so vnderstood as if we were disobliged from performance of any duty or the eschewing of any vice vnlesse it be expressed in the ten Commandments For to omit the precepts of receauing
for example to consecrate the Eucharist to ordaine Priests c. they cannot lawfully exercise 7. In the iudgment of the holy Fathers Schisme is a most grieuous offence S. Chrysostome (m) Hom. 11. in ep ad Ephes compares these Schismaticall deuiders of Christs mysticall body to those who sacrilegiously pierced his naturall body saying Nothing doth so much incense God as that the Church should be deuided Although we should do innumerable good works if we deuide the full Ecclesiasticall Congregation we shall be punished no lesse then they who tore his naturall body For that was done to the gaine of the whole world although not with that intention but this hath no profit at all but there ariseth from it most great harme These things are spoken not only to those who beare office but also to those who are gouerned by them Behold how neither a morall good life which conceipt deceiueth many nor authority of Magistrates nor any necessity of Obeying Superiours can excuse Schisme from being a most haynous offence Optatus Mileuitanus (o) lib. cont Parmen calls Schisme Ingens flagitium a huge crime And speaking to the Donatists sayth that Schisme is euill in the highest degree euen you are not able to deny No lesse patheticall is S. Augustine vpon this subiect He reckons Schismatiques among Pagans Heretiques and Iewes saying Religion is to be sought neither in the confusion of Pagans nor (p) lib. de vera Relig. cap. 6. in the filth of Heretiques nor in the languishing of Schismatiques nor in the Age of the Iewes but among those alone who are called Christian Catholiques or Orthodox that is louers of Vnity in the whole body and followers of truth Nay he esteems them worse then Infidels and Idolaters saying Those whom the Donatists (q) Cont. Donatist l. 1. cap. 8. heale from the wound of Infidelity and Idolatry they hurt more grieously with the wound of Schisme Let here those men who are pleased vntruly to call vs Idolaters reflect vpon themselues and consider that this holy Father iudgeth Schismatiques as they are to be worse then Idolaters which they absurdly call vs and this he proueth by the example of Core Dathan and Abiron and other rebellious Schismatiques of the Old Testament who were conuayed aliue downe into Hell and punished more openly then Idolaters No doubt sayth this holy Father but (r) Ibid. lib. 2. cap. 6. that was committed most wickedly which was punished most seuerely In another place he yoaketh Schisme with Heresy saying vpon the Eight Beatitude Many (s) De serm Dom. in moute â— 5. Heretiques vnder the name of Christians deceiuing mens soules do suffer many such things but therfore they are excluded from this reward because it is not only said Happy are they who suffer persecution but there is added for Iustice But where there is not sound fayth there cannot be iustice Neither can Schismatiques promise to themselues any part of this reward because likewise where there is no Charity there cannot be iustice And in another place yet more effectually he saith Being out of (t) Epist. 204 the Church and diuided from the heape of Vnity and the bond of Charity thou shouldest be punished with eternall death though thou shouldest be burned aliue for the name of Christ And in another place he hath these words If he heare not the Church let him be to (v) cont aduers leg prophet lib 2. cap. 17. thee as an Heathen or Publican which is more grieuous then if he were smitten with the sword consumed with flames or cast to wild beasts And else where Out of the Catholique Church sayth he one (w) de gest cum Emerit may haue Fayth Sacraments Orders and in summe all things except Saluation With S. Augustine his Countrey man and second selfe in sympathy of spirit S. Fulgentius agreeth saying Belieue this (x) de fide ad Pet. stedfastly without doubting that euery Heretique or Schismatique baptized in the name of the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost if before the end of his life he be not reconciled to the Catholique Church what Almes soeuer he giue yea though he should shed his bloud for the name of Christ he cannot obtaine Saluation Marke againe how no morall honesty of life no good deeds no Martyrdome can without repentance auaile any Schismatique for saluation Let vs also add that D. Potter sayth Schisme is no lesse (y) pag. 42. damnable then Heresy 8. But ô you Holy Learned Zealous Fathers and Doctours of God's Church out of these premises of the grieuousnes of Schisme of the certaine damnation which it bringeth if vnrepented what conclusion draw you for the instruction of Christians S. Augustine maketh this wholesome inference There is (z) Cont. Parm. lib. 2. cap. â—2 no iust necessity to diuide Vnity S. Ireneus concludeth They cannot (a) cont haeres lib. 4. c. 62. make any so important reformation as the euill of the Schisme is pernicious S. Denis of Alexandria sayth Certainely (b) Apud Euseb Hist Eccles lib. 6. all things should rather be indured then to consent to the diuision of the Church of God these Martyrs being no lesse glorious that expose themselues to hinder the dismembring of the Church then those that suffer rather then they will effer sacrifice to Idols Would to God all those who diuided themselues from that visible Church of Christ which was vpon earth when Luther appeared would rightly consider of these things And thus much of the second Point 9. 1. Point We haue iust and necessary occasion eternally to blesse Almighty God who hath vouchsafed to make vs members of the Catholique Roman Church Perpetuall visibility of the Church from which while men fall they precipitate themselues into so vast absurdities or rather sacrilegious blasphemies as is implyed in the doctrine of the totall deficiency of the visible Church which yet is maintayned by diuers chiefe Protestants as may at large be seene in Brereley and others out of whome I will heere name Iewell saying The truth was vnknowne (c) Apolog. part 4. cap. 4. diuis 2 And in his defeÌ„ce printed Ann. 1571. pagâ— 426. at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Vlderick Zuinglius first came vnto the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell Perkins sayth We say that (d) In his exposition vpon the Creed pag. 400. before the dayes of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostasy ouerspread the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not then visible to the world Napier vpon the Reuelations teacheth that from the yeare of (e) Propost 37. pag. 68. Christ three hundred and sixteene the Antichristian and papisticall raigne hath begun raigning vniuersally and without any debatable contradiction one thousand two hundred sixty yeares that is till Luthers tyme And that from the yeare of (f) Ibid. in cap. 12. pag. 161. col
you can possibly be saued But we haue no such dependance vpon you Nay the same Confession which acquits vs condemnes your selues For while you confesse a Reformatiō of the Old Church and neyther doe nor can specify any Visible Church which in your opinion needed no Reformation you must affirme that the Church which you intended to reforme was indeed the Visible Catholique Church if so then you cannot deny but that you departed from the Catholique Church are guilty of Schisme yea and of Heresy For if the Catholique Church was infected with erroneous doctrine which needed Reformation it followes that the errours were Vniuersall and that the Reformation conming after those errours must want Vniuersality of Place and Tyme and therefore be branded with the marke of Heresy For in true Diuinity a new and no Church are all one Moreouer the very Nature Essence of the Church requiring true fayth it is impossible to alter any lest point of fayth without changing the substance of the Church and Religion and therfore to reforme the Church in matters of faith is as if you should reforme a man by depriuing him of a reasonable Soule whereby he is a man And a Reformed Catholique are termes no lesse repugnant then a reasonable vnreasonable creature or a destroied existing thing Wherfore to say the Reformation did not change the substance of Religion but only cleansed it from corrupt and impure qualities are meer wordes to deceaue simple soules And it is a lamentable case that you can neuer be brought from such ridiculous similitudes as heere you bring of Naaman who was stil the same man before and after he was cured of his leprosy Of a field ouergrowne with weeds thistles c. and your Brethren are full of twenty such childish pretended illustrations whereas euery body knowes that leprosy is accidental to a man and weeds to a field but Fayth is essentiall to the Church and that Affirmation or Negation of any one reuealed Truth whatsoeuer are differences no lesse essentiall in fayth then reasonable and vnreasonable in liuing Creatures And Fayth it selfe being an accident and quality consisting in Affirmation or Negation to cleanse it from the corrupt and impure quality of affirming or denying is to cleanse it from its own Nature and Essence which is not to reforme but to destroy it Lastly from this your forced Confession not to erect a new Church but to purge the Old we must inferre that the Roman Church which you sought to purge was the Old Church and the Catholike Church of Christ For if you found any other Old visible Catholike Church which needed no Reformation then you neyther intended to erect a new Church nor to purge the Old 2. You say the things which Protestants (b) Pag. 61. belieue on their part and wherin they iudge the life and substance of Religion to be comprized are most if not all of them so euidently and indisputably true that their Aduersaries themselues do auow and receiue them as well as they If this be true and that the said Verities make vp the fayth of Protestants as you speake then what needed you a Reformation to teach men the fayth of Protestants which they belieued before Protestants appeared Or how can you be excused from Schisme who diuided your selues from that visible Church which belieued those verities which make vp your fayth You say If all other Christians could be coutent (c) pag. 61.62 to keepe within these generall bounds the wofull Schismes and ruptures of Christendome might be more easily healed O words most powerfull to condemne your selues who were not content to keep within those generall bounds which you confesse we belieued but would attempt new Reformations although with so wofull Schismes and Ruptures of Christendome as you hold worthy to be lamented with teares of bloud If our errors were not fundamentall your Reformation could not be necessary to saluation as when the wound or disease is knowne not to be deadly the cure cannot be necessary to the conseruation of life 3. The Reformation which zealous Catholiques did desire and with whose words you vainely load your Margent were not in fayth but manners For which if it be lawfull to forsake a Church no Church shall remaine vnforsaken But of this I haue spoken in the First Part. Luther was iustly cut of by Excommunication as a pernicious member which yet was not done till the Pope had vsed all meanes to reclaime him Prouincial or Nationall Synods may seeke to reforme abuses in manners and endeauour that the fayth already established be conserued but if they go about to reforme the Catholique Church in any one point they deserue the name of Conuenticles and not of Councels 4. What meane you when you say that you left the (e) pag. 67. Church of Rome in nothing she holds of Christ or of Apostolique Tradition Do you admit Traditions Are they fallible or infallible For if they be infallible then may they be part of the Rule of fayth If fallible they are not Apostolique 5. You goe then about to proue that our doctrines are First doubtfull and perplexed opinions 2. Doctrines vnnecessary and forraine to the fayth and 3. Nouelties vnknowne to Antiquity 6. You pretend they are doubtfull and say The Roman Doctours doe not fully and absolutly agree in any one point among themselues but only in such points wherin they agree with vs. If a manifest vntruth be a good proofe your Argument conuinceth If you thinke that disagreement in matters not defined by the Church argues difference in matters of fayth you shew small reading in our Deuines who euen in all those Articles wherein you agree with vs haue many different and contrary Opinions concerning points not defined as about some speculatiue questions concerning the Deity the Blessed Trinity Incarnation yea there are more disputes about those high Mysteries wherin you agree with vs then in others wherin we disagree and yet you grant that such disputes do not argue those maine points to be doubtfull And so you must answere your owne instance by which you might as well proue that Philosophers do not agree whether there be such things as Time Motion Quantity Heauens Elements c. because in many particulars concerning those things they cannot agree 7. In the second place you affirme our doctrines to be vnnecessary and superfluous because a very small measure of explicite knowledge is of absolute necessity But this is very cleerly nothing at all to the purpose For our Question is not what euery one is obliged explicitely to belieue but whether euery one be not obliged not to disbelieue or deny any one point sufficiently propounded by the Church as a diuine Truth Neither do we treate of ignorance of some points but of plaine opposition and contradiction both between you and vs and also among your selues You cite Bellarmine saying The Apostles neuer vsed (g) De verb. Dei lib. 4. cap. 11. to preach openly
to the people other things then the Articles of the Apostles Creed the Ten Commaundments and some of the Sacraments because these are simply necessary and profitable for all men the rest besides such as a man may be saued without them Heere you stop leauing out the words immediately following which are directly against you So that sayth Bellarmine he haue (h) Ibid. a will ready to imbrace and belieue them whensoeuer they shall be sufficiently propounded to him by the Church Besides you falsifie Bellarmine when you make him say that the Apostles neuer vsed to preach to the people other things then the Articles of the Apostles Creed the commandments and some of the Sacraments because these are simply necessary and profitable for all men But he sayth directly the contrary namely that the Apostles preached to all some things which were not necessary but only profitable to all and therfore not superfluous as you say whereas yet he expressely affirmes the knowledge of the Creed commandments and some sacraments to be necessary to all I wonder what pleasure you can take in corrupting Authors to your owne discredit Now since we must haue as Bellarmine rightly teacheth a will ready to imbrace whatsoeuer is propounded by the Church it followeth that notwithstanding your Confidence to the contrary we cannot but except against your publique Seruice or Liturgy I haue neither will nor leisure to examine particulars but Exceptions inough offer themselues to any mans first Consideration The very occasion and end for which it was framed proceeded out of an Hereticall spirit to oppose the true Visible Church It was turned into English vpon an hereticall perswasion and a popular insinuation and a crafty affectation to inueigle the humor of the people that publique Prayers were vnlawfull in an vnknowne tongue It leaueth out Prayers both for deceased sinners and to glorious Saints blotting diuers of them out of their Calendar and hath abrogated their festiuall dayes and the like they haue done concerning fasts except those few which they vouchsafe to like It abolisheth all memory of S. Peters Successour It treateth only of two Sacraments excluding the rest and in the one it omitteth most of our Ceremonies as superstitious in the other it professeth not to giue any thing but the substance of Bread and wine It administreth to Lay people both kinds as necessary by the institution of Christ our Lord Masse or Sacrifice it hath none It reades and belieues Scripture heretically translated It mentioneth no Reliques of Saints And in a word it is both in the whole Body and designe and in euery point a profession of a Church and fayth contrary to Catholiques and implies a condemnation of our Liturgy as superstitious your selfe boldly say We cannot we (i) Pag. 68. dare not communicate with Rome in her publique Liturgy which is manifestly polluted with grosse superstitions and therefore wee Catholiques also can no more approue your practise and Liturgy then we can imbrace your Doctrine and fayth I said that I had no desire to examine the particulars of your Liturgy neither is it needfull For we may iudge of the rest by the very first words or Introite of your Seruice beginning with a Text for which you cite Ezech. 18. At what time soeuer a sinner doth repent him of his sinnes from the bottome of his heart I will put all his wickednes out of my remembrance sayth the Lord. But there is no such sentence in Ezechiel whose words are these euen in the Bible of the Protestants But if the wicked will turne from all his sinnes which he hath committed and keep all my statutes and do that which is lawfull and right he shall surely liue he shall not die All his Transgressions which he hath committed they shall not be mentioned vnto him in the righteousnes which he hath done he shall liue Your first Reformers the soule of whose Church was solifidian Iustification were loth to heare of possibility to keep all the Commandments of working Righteousnes or liuing in the Righteousnes which he hath wrought as also they were vnwilling to particularize with the Prophet what is required to true Repentance knowing full well the different opinions of their first Progenitors about this point of Repentance and therfore they thought best to corrupt this Text. And which is more strange in your seruice-Booke translated into Latin and printed in London Per assignationem Francisci Florae the sentence is cited at large as it is in the Prophet and therfore the corruption still remayning in the English to deceiue the Vnlearned is more inexcusable Neither in the same Introite is the allegation of Ioel. 2. much more truly made Rent your hearts not your garments and turne to the Lord your God c. Out of which place you know men are wont to declaime against our corporall Penance of Fasting Watching Hayre-cloth Disciplines c. but euen according to your owne Translation the words are Turne you euen to me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with mourning And rent your hearts and not your garments c. where I belieue you will confesse that your omission was not vsed to no purpose 8. You speake among other things of Images we grant that God may be worshipped without an Image But we say that he cannot be truly worshipped by any one who denieth worship of Images because true worship of God cannot stand with any one Heresy It is highly good lawfull and a most holy thing to pray to God but yet if one should belieue that we may not also pray to liuing men your selfe would I thinke condemne him for an Heretique because all Christians intreate their Brethren to pray for them By which example all your instances pag. 72. may be answered Your saying out of Bellarminine that the worship and Inuocation of Saints was brought into the Church rather by custom then any Precept is answered heerafter n. 12. And I would gladly know by what authority your Church can inioyne secret Cōfession in some case as heere pag. 72. you say she doth if Christ haue left it free Can a humane law oblige men to reueale their secret sinnes in Confession especially since they know not whether your Ministers will not thinke themselues obliged to acquaint some Officer therewith in case the Penitent disclose any crime punishable by the Lawes of the Realme To which propose I could tell you strange and true stories as contrarily because Catholikes belieue the Sacrament of Confession to haue been instituted by our Sauiour Christ as necessary to Saluation they consequently teach that the Seale and Secret thereof is so sacred and inuiolable that the Pope himselfe cannot dispense therein though it were to saue his owne life And now to follow your wandrings you may know that we doe not hinder but giue free leaue to vnlearned persons to say their prayers in a known language but the Church doth celebrate publique Seruice